So Money with Farnoosh Torabi

Episode 1910: The Most Powerful Woman in U.S. Economic History, Janet Yellen (Encore)
Guest: John Hilsenrath, Author of “Yellen: The Trailblazing Economist Who Navigated an Era of Upheaval”
Date: November 26, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the extraordinary life and career of Janet Yellen, the first woman to hold the three most influential economic policy positions in U.S. history: Treasury Secretary, Federal Reserve Chair, and Chair of the Council of Economic Advisors. Host Farnoosh Torabi interviews John Hilsenrath, award-winning Wall Street Journal economics writer and author of Yellen’s new biography, for an in-depth look at Yellen’s professional journey, her partnership with Nobel laureate George Akerlof, her strategies for breaking glass ceilings, and her pragmatic worldview on economic policy. Through lively stories, thoughtful analysis, and memorable anecdotes, the episode offers both a humanizing portrait and crucial lessons for anyone interested in economics, public service, or career advancement.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Write About Janet Yellen? The Story’s Heart (04:55)

• Firsts and Historic Breakthroughs: Yellen was first woman Treasury Secretary, first female Fed Chair, and second woman to head the Council of Economic Advisors.
• Human Dimension: The book is “also a love story”—of Janet and her husband George Akerlof, Nobel laureate, whom Hilsenrath describes as their partnership being “the Ruth Bader Ginsburg of economics” (05:32).
• Intellectual Partnership: The couple have jointly influenced and witnessed nearly every major economic debate of the past half-century.
• Hilsenrath: “The story is about economics, but it’s really a story about two people and how they traveled a journey to really interesting places together.” (06:17)

2. The Power of Partnership—Personal and Professional (06:34)

• True Equality: George Akerlof always saw Janet’s career as equally important to his, even while winning a Nobel Prize (07:15).
• Shared Parenting: “He picked up Robby at school and took care of his dinner,” reversing common gender expectations (08:06).
• Intellectual Evenings: “Imagine sitting with a Treasury Secretary, a Fed Chair, a Nobel Prize winner, and three PhDs... even now, they spend all their time talking about economics.” (08:22)

3. Gender Barriers in Economics and Yellen’s Early Obstacles (09:21)

• 1960s Yale: Only woman in her PhD class, at a university not yet admitting women as undergrads; faculty meetings in male-only clubs (09:37).
• Harvard in the 1970s: Women faculty barred from the single campus pool; isolation for female academics (10:19).
• Field Hostility: Economics as “a very argumentative field. They like to shout each other down. And that extends to women.” (11:16)
• Clinton Era: Progress in appointments but persistent “men’s locker room” atmosphere—even in pro-women administrations (11:38).

4. Breaking Glass Ceilings: When (and When Not) to Lean In (12:25)

• Selective Assertiveness: Yellen leaned in “only when it mattered... not just to make her voice heard.” (13:05)
• Example: After the 2008 crisis, Yellen “pushed the Fed hard... pounded the table when she thought something had to be heard from her and she had all her facts right.” (13:21)
• Authentic Approach: Outside key debates, she’s “very easygoing... liked to go out and have a drink with her colleagues... could down a martini with the best of them.” (13:54)

5. Other Keys to Career Success (14:07)

• Supportive Partnerships: Modeled gender-equal relationships—still rare decades later.
• Aiming for ‘Higher Ground’: Both Yellen and Akerlof motivated by deep concern for unemployment, human suffering, and a “higher purpose” in economic policy, likening themselves to “lighthouse keepers” (16:15).
• Memorable Quote: “They saw themselves as trying to do something to improve the human condition. Now, you could disagree with her policies…but that’s the way they saw it.” (16:41)

6. Yellen on Inflation and the Psychology of Policymaking (17:34)

• Transitory Inflation Misreading: Yellen and other policymakers believed inflation post-pandemic would be temporary—“they were wrong,” admits Hilsenrath (17:51).
• Recency Bias: Policymakers, shaped by the previous decade’s low inflation, responded to COVID-19 with massive stimulus, misjudging risks (18:38).
• Policy Lessons: Even “the best of minds get caught in psychological quirks... trying to figure out what ground am I standing on today?” (19:35)

7. Yellen’s Guiding Economic Philosophy (25:13)

• Keynesian Roots: Yellen believes markets sometimes fail and government intervention can be necessary—“there’s gotta be some role for the government to help navigate the tides and torrents of a shifting economy.” (26:09)
• Pragmatism over Ideology: Inspired by her upbringing, “she is almost compulsive about doing her homework... fact-check your facts. Go into debates with a sense that I want to be helpful... but also avoid doing more harm than good.” (27:02)

8. Will Yellen Stay in Office? (28:14)

• No Plans to Leave: Yellen told Hilsenrath directly “she has no intention of leaving,” likes the job despite being outside Biden’s inner circle, and is committed to her team at the Treasury (28:15).
• Lighthouse Metaphor Revisited: Saw her return to public service post-retirement as a duty during a time of national turmoil (28:40).

9. Hilsenrath’s Reflections & Current Concerns (29:27)

• Long Tenure at WSJ: Chose to stay because “there’s always something interesting happening... economic battlegrounds are the new front lines.” (30:05)
• Change and Trust in Journalism: “People are so suspicious of what we do and what our biases might be... I’ve got to work really hard every day to keep the trust.” (30:46)
• The Global ‘Disorder’ Era: Once-optimistic global order post-1990s is unravelling; rising global turbulence and uncertainty now define the landscape (32:33).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Yellen & Akerlof’s Marriage:
  “She had all the rights and privileges of a career that he did, but he also had all the rights and privileges of parenthood that she did.”
  — John Hilsenrath (08:08)

• On Evening Conversations:
  “Imagine sitting with a Treasury Secretary, a Fed Chair, a Nobel Prize winner, and three PhDs... That’s what a family dinner was like in the Akerlof home.”
  — John Hilsenrath (08:22)

• On Workplace Gender Barriers:
  “The economics profession in particular is a very male dominated field... Women had a hard time even getting into faculty meetings at Yale.”
  — John Hilsenrath (09:37)

• On Yellen Leaning In:
  “She didn’t lean in just to be heard. She decided to lean in when it mattered.”
  — John Hilsenrath (13:54)

• On Motivation for Public Service:
  “They saw themselves...as trying to do something to improve the human condition. Now you could disagree with her policies...but that’s the way they saw it.”
  — John Hilsenrath (16:41)

• On Responding to Inflation:
  “A lot of policymakers, including Yellen, said a year ago that the inflation we experienced was going to be transitory, and they were wrong.”
  — John Hilsenrath (17:52)

• On Policy Making:
  “You have to unblock yourself from ideologies or preconceptions about what the world should look like... just look at the facts on the ground.”
  — John Hilsenrath (27:12)

• On Global Disorder:
  “We’ve entered a new global disorder... there’s so much friction in this global system and it causes things like financial turbulence and war and uncertainty.”
  — John Hilsenrath (33:10)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Episode Introduction and Book Context: 02:10 – 04:55
• Yellen & Akerlof: The Partnership: 04:55 – 08:53
• Gender Bias & Academic Obstacles: 09:21 – 12:25
• Breaking Glass Ceilings/“Lean In, But Not Always”: 12:25 – 15:12
• Aspiring to Higher Ground/Lighthouse Metaphor: 15:24 – 17:34
• Yellen’s Inflation Record & Policy Psychology: 17:34 – 20:15
• Yellen’s Economic Worldview: 25:13 – 27:59
• Yellen’s Future at Treasury: 28:14 – 29:27
• Hilsenrath’s Career & Global Disorder Reflection: 29:27 – 34:47
• Closing & Book Promotion: 34:47 – 35:08

Summary Tone

The discussion is insightful, candid, and warmly respectful, balancing biographical details with broader career guidance and economic reflections. Hilsenrath’s tone is deeply researched and nonpartisan, with Farnoosh creating a space for both admiration and honest critique. The tone reflects a genuine interest in both the personal and public legacy of Janet Yellen and offers thoughtful, actionable lessons for listeners.

Useful Takeaways

• Trust and mutual support in personal and professional life are key accelerators for career success, especially for women breaking barriers.
• Selective assertiveness (“lean in, but not always”) and rigorous preparation are more influential than constant self-promotion.
• Yellen’s legacy is as much about her policy record as her pragmatism, humility, and sense of duty—values essential for navigating today’s complex world.
• Major economic missteps, even by the most experienced minds, often stem from psychological biases—not ignorance or incompetence.
• The current era is marked less by “order” and more by “disorder”—Americans should brace for uncertainty, with government and individual action more important than ever.

Book Referenced:
Yellen: The Trailblazing Economist Who Navigated an Era of Upheaval by John Hilsenrath

Guest:
John Hilsenrath, Wall Street Journal economics writer
Pulitzer finalist and author

Host:
Farnoosh Torabi, So Money