← So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
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- [00:00]
Ruchika Malhotra
Imagine the merging of trusted intelligence into a unified experience. Imagine collaboration amongst teams and across continents. Imagine an empowered ecosystem designed to deliver actionable insights that inspire growth and sustainability. That's the power of the Connect Industrial Intelligence platform to help you see further innovate faster, accomplish more. That's the Connect effect.
- [00:27]
Hannah Berner
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- [01:10]
Ruchika Malhotra
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- [02:20]
Farnoosh Torabi
Redefining success in a world obsessed with winning the cost of competition. You're listening to SO MONEY with award winning money guru Farnoosh Torabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnoosh yourself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to SO Money.
- [02:53]
Ruchika Malhotra
My hope is just to reach out to those people and say for a moment like hey, if you could slow down those automatic processes and just ask, do I want to engage in competition right now or not, that's all I want more of us to do. And if I can change one or two people to think differently on that, I feel like my work is done.
- [03:13]
Farnoosh Torabi
That blows my mind. I I'm going to start doing that. Welcome to so Money everybody. I'm Farnoosh Tarabi. Really excited for this episode because imagine a world where you were no longer expected to compete. Your worth wasn't tied to winning or outperforming or outshining the person next to you or the peer in your industry. Success wasn't a race, but a collaboration. And that is the world our guest today invites us to imagine and to start building. Ruchika Malhotra. You might remember her from her last appearance on so Money. She is the author of Inclusion on Purpose and you may remember her from her last appearance on so Money when she turned our understanding of imposter syndrome upside down, revealing it is not a personal flaw but but a systemic one. Her new book is called Rejecting Competition to Unlock Success and it does something equally radical. It questions the very belief that competition is healthy or even necessary for success. She argues that our obsession with rivalry and scarcity thinking has made us anxious, exhausted and disconnected. And so she's calling for a new framework that's built on collaboration, abundance, inclusion, solidarity principles that might sound soft until you realize how powerful they are and how they fuel innovation, well being and yep, wealth. Here we go. Ruchika Malhotra, welcome back to so Money. It's so good to see you post Covid and all. And now you have a second book. Congratulations.
- [04:54]
Ruchika Malhotra
Thanks so much Farnoosh. What a joy to be here with you. It reminds me of the passage of time when we get to chat.
- [05:01]
Farnoosh Torabi
Well, the world has definitely changed and last time you were on we discussed imposter syndrome. Your work has really upended a lot of the belief systems we carry about this idea of imposter syndrome and for the better. I actually reference it in my book A Healthy State of Panic. This work because I think we do have a lot of this fear of rejection and we call it sometimes imposter syndrome. But your work has shown that it's a made up construct, especially when it applies to women. And everybody should read your first book. It's called Inclusion on Purpose and I'll actually link to our episode in the show notes so people can easily reference that conversation we had around that book launch. But your latest work busts a different kind of myth, an important one that was in some ways born out of this previous work on the topic of imposter syndrome. This book is entitled Rejecting Competition to unlock Success. Before we get into the thesis, how did this idea spring out of your original work around imposter syndrome? And De and I, how did you arrive at this new way of think around competition? Yeah.
- [06:13]
Ruchika Malhotra
Thanks, Varnoosh. So excited to be in this conversation with you. I have referenced and looked at your work and your expertise for over 10 years. So for me to have this conversation with someone who really feels like One of the OGs who was talking about women and money. And as a former business journalist, like so much of what I first read, I was like, yes, thank you. Someone is saying this and that too. With a name like Ruchika, having someone like Farnoosh talk about it was even better. So all of this to say this is an awesome moment, despite all the challenges we see around us, of which there are many, but really how this work came about, my work on imposter syndrome and really I'm very proud of the article I co wrote with Jodianne Bury for HBR. It was named one of the 20 most impactful articles in HBR's 100 year history. And the thesis of that is essentially that imposter syndrome is very much a challenge of a system and a product of a system that essentially wasn't made for women and for people who don't fit a very certain mold, which some people say is pale, male and stale. So it's very important to understand that as you think about creating a more equitable and inclusive world, which is, and workplaces, which is very much my, my work over the last decade, you have to understand, like so many systemic issues have played into why we see a lack of women's advancement, why we see women and money as such huge important area where we want to see progress and investment and we haven't seen it. So how I came to this work to uncompete was very much born out of a lot of the challenges and the almost like hesitation I would see from really well meaning people who would say, I want to see a better world. I want to have more women in leadership roles, I want to see more opportunities for all. And it would click in theory, but in practice there would still be like fear of, oh, but if this woman's, if this women's leadership initiative in our company takes off, like what happens to the men? Or yes, I'd love to hire and promote more women again in theory, but in practice, does that mean, like, in years to come my son won't have a job? You know, What I mean, and so there was this type of pushback and almost under the surface, under the skin pushback that I was starting to see that I just couldn't like put my finger on. But it was there everywhere. Like I remember I was speaking at a thousand person conference and even on stage I was surprised that I was asked this question. Right again. So glad you're talking about women's leadership, dei, like all of this, this was the heyday of dei and then still. But like, how do we do this in a way that doesn't make like current leaders and men uncomfortable? How do we do this in a way that like doesn't actually disrupt the status quo? I think that's where the start of uncompete came to be. And then once I started noticing this sort of competition way of being, I couldn't help but connect it with competition everywhere in every facet of our society. In the education system, in the workplace, in our social relations, in, in the way. I think a lot of times women feel like we have to compete with and elbow each other out of the way and compare ourselves. So all of the things you call.
- [09:43]
Farnoosh Torabi
It a scarcity mindset or this idea that the world is a zero sum game. And to be fair for women at least I, you know, I've had male bosses and female bosses, male coworkers and female co workers who are senior to me. And just in my own experience, I find that generally speaking, the men are less competitive with me and that's probably because they don't see me as a threat. And you know, there was an expression back in the day like she won't give you ice in the winter, like in an ice storm when there's an abundance of ice. Like that was an expression when I was coming up in my career because that's how we felt that women were against each other. And there's, you know, this idea that like back then at least and still to some extent that if you know a woman is getting promoted in a department, she's lucky and there's no room for two women. That playbook has endured in many arenas, whether it's you're trying to sell a book. I've heard things like from agents who've heard from publishers that we can't accept this manuscript because the author is a black woman talking about De and I, and we already have a book coming out this year or next year on this topic by an author of a similar profile. It's like, really two black people can't be talking about a similar Topic. This is a systemic problem. It has a long history. So how do we unravel from that at least, okay, let's say on an individual basis. How do you start to look at the world as abundant and not a place of scarcity when all this stuff is going on in the background?
- [11:16]
Ruchika Malhotra
Yeah, Farnoosh, thanks for sharing. And I want to say, and I want to really validate and for anyone listening, like this is not me saying that this scarcity or zero sum thinking, which I also talk about in the book Winner Take all, comes like from a figment of our imagination or it's all because like, women are hardwired to be so mean to each other and the men are different. It's not. It is truly systemic. And you're so right. I write in the book about what it's like when you're at an organization and there's only one woman in, in the leadership, like ranks anywhere. And so if you're that you think you've got to elbow everyone else out of the way, like that's systemic. And for men, truly there are many more opportunities. That's the reality. If I look at the C suite of any organization I've ever worked at, I would definitely think as a junior man, I would imagine and having and being married to a man too, you don't think, oh, there's only one spot, right? You definitely think, oh, there's a ladder here that I can climb and I know that there's opportunities for me and I know for sure that women haven't been shown that at all. So again, just really validating that. Yes, I see why this exists. And if we want to change a system that wasn't built for us and was designed to keep us competitive with each other, we've got to be the ones breaking that cycle. And it's hard and it's might mean a short term quote, unquote loss. It might mean in the short term you don't step up and compete for a position. But in the long term, you're investing in a culture and a workplace where many more women can thrive. If we can show you can be abundant, you can collaborate with each other, you can be radically generous with each other. And again, there's a lot of nuance that I cover in the book because obviously the last thing I want to do is tell any woman to go out of her way and do more and then get taken advantage of. That's not what this is about. But it's definitely about having an expansive view because certainly the way the Current systems are just not serving us. And most of us are so exhausted, burnt out, like disillusioned. We have less trust and more grievance in our workplace and in society than we've ever had in all these decades that folks collecting data on these things.
- [13:41]
Farnoosh Torabi
So what is the world that you want us to ultimately strive for? How do we start to rethink this idea of competition? Especially because, you know, I have kids and they play sports and competition shows up in different ways. Are there healthy practices? Are there healthy ways to practice competition? Generally speaking, how do you want us to shift the mindset?
- [14:02]
Ruchika Malhotra
Yeah, kids and sports is a great example. I think sports is really fun and necessary. I think what I like about sports and even write about the Olympics as a competition where in general, again, you know, I always, I'm a very. It depends and there are nuances, like type of person. So I need to try and be like, nope, this is not the time. But I do go into detail about how something like the Olympics is a great example of competition where, like, the rules are really clear. Like, you put you, you compete with people who are like, in terms of strength and in terms of training and in terms of aptitude and all of those things. And everything's very clearly defined, right? One of the challenges is in life, nothing, nothing is that clearly defined. No, competition is a level playing field. And so when I look at kids, what really worries me, I think sports is one of those things where again, if we teach kids to foster a healthy sense of in life, there are wins and loses. That doesn't mean you're a bad person. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with you if you're part of a team sport and like your team loses. The more important thing is all those beautiful things you learn, you work together, you collaborate, you have each other's backs. But then when you add in that competitive element of like, your self worth depends on this. And I've seen this, right? Like, my now fourth grader joined a soccer team in third grade and in the beginning, and it was clear that was not where his, like, passions lay. He needed to work extra hard to be able to, quote, even match up to some of the other kids. And in the beginning, I could see he was excited. He's hey, I'm learning, okay, I'm not great at this, but I'm learning. And then as it became more and more competitive and you compete with other teams and becomes this whole thing, I could see, like a lot of the other kids also would start to disparage him and other boys who didn't like you let a goal go like that means you're bad or you're a loser and these sorts of things. And what we realize is when you make competition so high stakes, when you attach it to your whole sense of worth and how you are rewarded in society, right? And if you extrapolate that experience, that's a tiny microcosm. But if you extrapolate what we say to people in the workplace, you're not allowed to fail even once. If you fail, you're out. Or, oh my gosh, you're going to get fired or you're gonna get demoted. What we're saying to people is, yes, we are making it competitive so that the best people can win, but what you're really doing is creating a healthy, an unhealthy state of panic and an unhealthy state of being where people feel anxious all the time. And I don't think that brings out the best in people.
- [16:54]
Farnoosh Torabi
It sounds like in a world where you have competition, but there are clear boundaries, clear rules and an emphasis on respect. And even like constant reminders that, like, getting a goal doesn't mean you're better or that you're even a winner. It's just that you all collaborated. That was great. That's the key. And so like, my son's in soccer and his coach is actually a woman. And love that. She coaches an all boys soccer team. And before the season began, she sent an email to all of the families and said, hi, my name is so and so. Welcome to the the new season. Here's some expectations and, you know, ground rules. First, I don't care about winning. I don't care about losing. I care about learning the game. I care about sportsmanship. And she very clearly set these expectations, whereas in previous seasons we never got those emails from coaches. But she was clearly deliberate. And it makes a huge difference, not just for the boys on the team, but for the parents too. When you know you're on the sidelines, it impacts how you choose to communicate with those players on the field. Because there are really toxic things that parents could say. There are unnecessary things that parents could say. Instead, we're like, you know, great try or you'll get it, you'll get it next time, or great teamwork. And those are the things that. It's like those positive reinforcements of collaboration and working together that I think thanks to the coach, that is now the result of her clear communication. Anyway, let's shift to practical use cases of this at work. Because as I'm hearing you, and I'm totally on board with everything you're saying, but I, I'm thinking about that person who works in corporate, in a competitive environment, let's just say like Wall street, and she's a woman. How does that person protect their career trajectory, their career growth and status, their financial ambitions, while. And being mindful of this potential toxicity that can arrive in a world where there's an overemphasis on competition, like a Wall Street.
- [19:03]
Ruchika Malhotra
Such a good point. So some part of this is very, I think a larger part of this, and I do write in the book, is that we do need leaders really to step up. And what you mentioned, the example of your son's soccer coach, I think we need more leaders. Not. I think I know and I have seen in what happens when leaders are like, we're an organization where collaboration matters more than competition. We're a team where if we fail together, we don't throw one person under the provable bus or whatever it is. Like, we really focus on making sure that learning and growth is more important than growth at all costs. So when I have seen that sort of language, whether it's through formal communication or in team meetings, especially in a lot of the advisory work I do, I have seen such a change. And there's recently research to back this up. Psychological safety, the ability to fail, to, to take risks, to speak up and challenge the status quo is really important to growth and innovation. And this is thanks to amazing research by Dr. Amy Edmondson from Harvard Business School. So we know there's a clear use case for what happens in organizations when leaders prioritize creating a climate of we can fail, we can make mistakes, we don't, we should not be trying to outdo each other, right? To win, we really got to do it together. So there's that leadership use case for women specifically. Again, I think it is really tricky to navigate in these environments. And I think what starts to happen and what we're noticing is that there's so much more burnout, there's so much more difficulty in staying the course when you are in these toxic, winner take all male dominated environments, if you approach it with the idea of I gotta go it alone. And so my advice, especially to women in these environments, and trust me, as someone who was a business journalist who considered a career in commercial law for a very long time, who has seen sort of these dynamics play out even in, in fields that are not supposed to be like this, for example, in academia, I will say that like when I have seen women band together to collaborate, to, to show up for each other, to practice solidarity. What is really the culture of the organization has a real opportunity to change. And I think that is what benefits in one of those environments. I know there's this belief that you gotta, like, constantly outdo each other. But again, the research so clearly supports, like, if you want to do great work, you want to have a career you're proud of, you want to operate with integrity, you got to do it and you got to model. It's got to start with you. You know what I mean?
- [21:50]
Farnoosh Torabi
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- [24:55]
Ruchika Malhotra
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- [25:35]
Farnoosh Torabi
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- [25:37]
Ruchika Malhotra
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- [25:44]
Farnoosh Torabi
Let yourself run, lift, flow and go. Head to 1peloton.com to learn more about the cross training TREAD plus terms apply. We began this conversation talking a little bit about De and I and how there was this sort of subtle backlash to it which then prompted your new thesis. Where do you see us now in terms of our acceptance of dei? They have said and they like just people in corporate that I've interviewed. I've interviewed a lot of leaders, CMOs, CEOs, founders who have watched this closely and they call it sort of this pendulum swinging. There was a lot of emphasis on Inclusivity. De and I, during the pandemic and now, for reasons I don't have to tell you, we've kind of swung to the other side of that. So we've experienced these polar opposite worlds. Do you believe we're going to find the center? And where is the pendulum today?
- [26:41]
Ruchika Malhotra
Here's what gives me hope, right? And this is where I feel really optimistic, even in a time of deep darkness. And I will, and I'll be honest, like, I'm not sugarcoating this. I'm not living in, like a fantasy. What gives me deep optimism is how much integrity. I have seen a lot of the leaders I've worked with, with firsthand operate with this idea that even if there are words that I can't say because it opens me up to legal risk, even if there are decisions we have to make because we are worried about risk and we know that there's other ramifications we need to manage. Even in those moments, I have seen so many leaders continue to say, we're going to need to comply and we might need to, and we're going to do it. And inside, we're still going to operate with the mindset that it's really important to create opportunities for all because we know in the longevity of the business. Again, if you take short term thinking, yes, I'm going to capitulate in the long term. I have seen so many leaders say we cannot afford to step back on dei, even if we can't call it that. Like, we know we are the most diverse nation in the world right now. We are the most. We have incredible diversity across mental health and neurodiversity and race and back and gender and other types of diversity and backgrounds. So what I've seen is a lot more leaders just say, yeah, I, I'm going to understand the rules, I'm going to understand these new legal challenges that have come our way. But at the end of the day, there was. There's a beautiful quote that's, that says demography is destiny. And at the end of the day, like, our demography will not allow us to step away from DEI fully, even if we have to change and creative about the way we do this work.
- [28:30]
Farnoosh Torabi
I love that. On a personal note, I, in recent years started to unfollow or mute some people on Instagram. I just. Nothing against them. It was me. I was competitive and I didn't like how I was feeling. This agita in me that I think is universal to an extent. We see our industry peers doing things and achieving Things. And, and while on the one hand we're very excited for them, the next thought is, why not me? What does this say about me that I don't have this achievement? Again, I find that this competition is so human nature. Do you actually agree with that? Competition is innate.
- [29:14]
Ruchika Malhotra
I'm so glad you shared that example because there's a couple of things that I've thought about a lot, done some research on for the book, and shared this. So two different things. One is I just want to say a, you're not alone on the social media thing and I'm glad you're doing that. That is actually one of the recommendations I have because what these algorithms have done and what these platforms and these companies do is they exacerbate a very human trend of not competition. But actually what is hardwired in us as humans is to compare. Right? Social comparison is human. That's how we even in our quote unquote hunter gatherer days, that's how we would make decisions. Is this. And someone is this, is this animal or mammal or whatever it is part of, like my tribe and am I safe or are they a predator? And where do we compare? So that's hardwired in U.S. competition? Not exactly. And again, in the book I talk about how and the research now shows and supports that the reason why humans as a group, as a society have managed to proliferate and live for so long is actually because we're great at collaborating and supporting each other, actually. So we're not actually hardwired to compete, compete with each other. So just want to take that on. And if I continue down this route, the way we do compare ourselves and especially because of the algorithms, like 30 years ago, heck, 15 years ago, right. You're doing great in your career. You or something happened in your life that you're proud of, and maybe you get one phone call or at a party, someone's hey, Farnoosh, there's this person, your neighbor, by the way, got an even bigger promotion and you go home and you feel icky about it and then you get on with your and day day. Now that's not the case. We are bombarded with people's highlight reels. Their lives looking incredible. There's so much, there's good research on how so many people only post like their best moments in life and how that makes us feel. So I actually just really want to say that it's normal to feel like a heightened sense of comparison because of and competition because of the way that these algorithms and platforms are designed to make us feel that way. And one of the ways that we can have agency over this is absolutely to set good boundaries. Whether that's muting people, whether that's unfollowing, whether that's limiting the time we spend on social media, whether whatever those boundaries are for you, whether it's following more accounts which give us joy and positivity, not about comparison. There are ways that we need to, but we have to be very intentional. Left to the default, we will spend all our time feeling crappy about ourselves if we spend all our time on these platforms. So I want to say that the last point I want to make is that I write about the. In the book, I write about envy. Pretty. I dedicate a whole chapter to managing comparison and envy. There are two types of envy, and I think the one you're talking about is this is what's. What is known as malicious envy. And also very normal, right? Someone does something great and you. Or something that inspires in you, oh, that was wonderful. We process it in two different types of envy, right? There's malicious envy, which is, oh, it's so unfair, or it's making me feel bad. It kind. I want to take it. Take them down in some way. Or there is benign envy. What I think is really important around navigating these times where it's not like we can spend less time on social media. And let's be real, you and I being folks who spend so much time connecting with our communities, there's no way. There's. It's very hard to limit that. I cannot, I want to. I've seen the research now. I've done it for the book. Even then I'm like, oh, I wish I could, but I can't. This is very much part of the work I do. And how do we channel some of those feelings of this person's doing great and I'm not. And I'm not as good in a healthy way. And I think that we have to get really good at it. There are ideas I share in the book, the importance of things like a gratitude practice of something called bragitude, which I love very much, which is like you. You talk about something that your success, you're successful in or something you're proud of and make sure that you also credit. So bragitude is like a mix of brag and gratitude. And you basically also thank and give credit to people who are very important in your rise. Right? We would never say, for example, our culture, especially our individualistic culture here in America is very Much. Oh, I won this award. Thanks to me. I'm so excited I won the award. And then bragitude would be like, I'm so excited I won this award. And here are all the people that I want to thank who maybe have even indirectly inspired me. Maybe like my good friend told me, hey, Richika, you should go in for the award ceremony. You should go and buy a dress from here or you can rent a dress from blah. So there's this like real focus on understanding that our success is collective and community based, not individual.
- [34:14]
Farnoosh Torabi
As you're speaking, I'm writing notes because I feel like so much of this dovetails and intersects with the work I've done around fear. Specifically the fear of rejection, the fear of failure, the fear of money. There are these through lines of being competitive and what competition means to us. We're competitive because we want to protect our wins. We want to feel validated. And so a good question to ask yourself is, is this what I'm really after? Is this what success looks like and feels like for me? Because I feel that sometimes we get envious of things that actually wouldn't mean anything to us if we had them or had experienced them. And then the other thing that I wrote down is that some people are just better at shar their wins, they're louder. And that can translate into this sense of competition. But the truth is maybe you're more of a private person and you're not somebody who needs to go out online and tout all your successes high fiving yourself on LinkedIn. Anyway, I'm going to stop talking now and I'll let you analyze everything I just said because furnish that is like.
- [35:19]
Ruchika Malhotra
A mic drop moment, actually.
- [35:21]
Farnoosh Torabi
Oh my God, really? Mic drop. Okay. Mic drop, drop.
- [35:24]
Ruchika Malhotra
Literally. Like literally. Because I think what I loved about your book and where kind of I came to the big conclusion and it's only in chapter nine of uncompete that I really talk about redefining success. Because I think there's just so many steps before we get to firstly, you got to realize like how pervasive competition is. Like it is the water we swim in. It's everywhere, it's in every situation. I tackle a lot of the myths about like competition makes us better or if we don't compete, we're going to fall behind. I tackle all those myths. I talk about other ways that we can really develop a healthy sense of self worth, unconditional self worth, which is work by Dr. Adia Gooden. We really go into a lot of detail around like how do we cultivate a life where we can really start to cultivate an abundance mindset, behave with ways that is that are generous and expensive and community based. And it's only in chapter nine, like literally at the end of the book book that I say now that like we've done all this work, that's when it's really important to sit down and ask yourself like, what does success really look like? Because it folds into everything else. But until we don't do that deep work of but what do I really want? What am I grounded in? What is my purpose? What was the reason I was put on this earth to do? Where do I derive joy? I think we are going to fall prey to a lot of these competitive systems and we are going to be the these systems. The especially social media was very much designed to make us feel an unhealthy state of panic. Like really want to drive this point home. And I think the last thing I want to say is especially as I like gear up for this book launch. It's very easy. I think being an author specifically is the experience probably most in my life that is giving me that feeling of like where I've really not that feeling like I've got to take my own advice. Right. Because there are all these lists, there's, there's all these other authors who are doing so much better. There's this author won an award. This author's book sold so many million copies. There's a lot of comparison and competition by the system that's been designed to make us feel that way. And I think that's where for me defining success has become really important and like success markers that again, outwardly people won't know. Right. But I'm having. My family is flying in from all over the world to be there for the launch. I'm excited that I get to be in community with people who really care for me and love me and nourish me. And I'm wondering, like, how do I really lean into that as my marker of success? And you've got to do so much work to get there.
- [38:07]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah, you got to know yourself. So final question. You mentioned your book launch and you're gearing up for that. What is the biggest debate you think you're going to be having with people on the various stages around this thesis? And what are you most prepared for for in terms of not backlash, but just debate.
- [38:27]
Ruchika Malhotra
Oh, backlash. There's going to. There are a lot of people. I was told by a very senior woman leader, this sounds Like a fantasy. Like, I've had to compete my whole life to get to where I am. And often that competition's actually been with men, which was not the. The easiest thing to hear. Right. Like, before a book launch. I will say that I think it's helped me realize, yes, this thesis is going to rankle a lot of people. It's going to rub them the wrong way. It's going to challenge the ideas of success that we hold dear. And one thing I hope that I've done in the book is communicate how much I held these ideas of success dear. Like, how much I, as a daughter of immigrants, an immigrant to the United States, a woman of color, how much I was told, like, the only way to get ahead is to get ahead and to be better than everyone else because it's always a competition. And how much I had to unlearn those ideas for my own sanity, for my own peace, for collective good, so that I could actually then invest back in the communities that I wanted to live in and that I wish I had. As I was coming up and it's hard, there are going to be people who will never get it, and I'm okay with that.
- [39:37]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah.
- [39:38]
Ruchika Malhotra
My hope is to at least have some of the people who are starting to question, like, are these systems serving me? Like, how do I feel when I go into the workplace and I'm constantly competing with everyone else and everyone becomes a rival? Or I'm on social media and I feel so stressed and anxious all the time. Time. My hope is just to reach out to those people and say for a moment, like, hey, if you could slow down those automatic processes and just ask, do I want to engage in competition right now or not? That's all I want more of us to do. And if I can change one or two people to think differently on that, I feel like my work is done.
- [40:17]
Farnoosh Torabi
That blows my mind. I'm going to start doing that. I'm going to start consciously, and I'm going to say it in front of my kids because I think it's important for them to hear. Hear this line. I'm not going to engage in that competition. I'm not going to go there. Yeah, I know. That's what gravity wants me to do. That's what maybe generations of Tarabis want me to do. But not going to do it. Not going to do it. I'm going to be in the driver's seat. I love that. Wow. For what it's worth, the best piece of advice I ever got about books and bringing a book into the world is that if there's no debate, if there's no pushback on your thesis is it's probably not an interesting book. It shouldn't be a book actually, if everybody loves it. I mean, you want people to love it, obviously, and people will, but there has to be discourse and and I think you do it so elegantly and so graciously. Ruchika Malhotra, thank you so much for coming back. And please, I'm curious to learn what you're gonna learn and what you will uncover on your book tour. So please come back.
- [41:21]
Ruchika Malhotra
Thank you. Farnooch so excited.
- [41:27]
Farnoosh Torabi
Thanks so much to Ruchika Malhotra. For Jo, her book again is called Rejecting Competition to Unlock Success. Thanks for tuning in. If you like what you're hearing, make sure you're hitting that subscribe button. Leave a review and share with a friend. I hope your day is so money. If you're not using Ironclad for contracts.
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Ruchika Malhotra
You could be leaving millions on the.
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Farnoosh Torabi
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Ruchika Malhotra
But good luck finding them when it matters.
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Farnoosh Torabi
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Ruchika Malhotra
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Farnoosh Torabi
That's why they're trusted by OpenAI, L' Oreal and Salesforce. Find the savings hiding in your contracts@ironcladapp.com that's ironcladapp.com podcast hi, this is Hannah.
- [42:31]
Hannah Berner
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