Loading summary
Transcript132 lines
- [00:00]
Vanta Advertiser
Security and compliance done wrong is a giant headache. Security and compliance done right? That's Vanta. Vanta helps you earn trust and speed up growth. No spreadsheets required. For startups low on time and resources, Vanta becomes your first security hire, using AI and automation to get you compliant fast and unblock big deals for enterprises. Vanta is your AI powered hub for compliance and risk, bringing together data from across your businesses and automating workflows so you can prove trust at any moment. Vanta scales with you at every stage. That's why top companies from startups like Cursor to enterprises like Snowflake choose Vanta do security and compliance right. Get started today@vanta.com Tedaudio was January supposed.
- [00:46]
Grow Therapy Advertiser
To be your big fresh start? Well, sometimes the pressure to fix everything at once just can leave you feeling stuck. Grow Therapy makes it easier to reset at your own pace with therapy that's covered by insurance and built around your life, you can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity or availability and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growththerapy.com acast to that's growtherapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.
- [01:47]
Jerry Insurance Advertiser
You know what's wild? Most people are still overpaying for car insurance just because it's a pain to switch. That's why there's Jerry. Jerry's the only app that compares rates from over 50 insurance in minutes and helps you switch fast. With no spam calls or hidden fees, drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year. Before you renew your car insurance policy, do yourself a favor, download the Jerry app or head to Jerry AI Acast.
- [02:16]
Podcast Host Intro/Outro
So Money Episode 1946 the Quiet Money Mistakes High Earning Women Make.
- [02:24]
Farnoosh Torabi
You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Kharabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business mind, authors, influencers and from Farnoosh herself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to so Money.
- [02:50]
Maggie Johndro
All the CPAs that are listening in are going to gasp when I say this, but just because you can get the tax break on it doesn't mean it's necessarily right for you. Short, intermediate or long term goals. Right? So maxing out your 401k. Yeah, it's awesome. Or your SEP IRA. But two things. One, what does your cash flow look like today? And two, if you're putting all of your money in deferred taxed accounts like a pre tax 401k, a pre tax SEP IRA, a traditional IRA, that is all money that you're going to have to take out depending on your age, but let's say by 75 in what's called a required minimum distribution. The IRS at that point is like, hey, you haven't paid taxes on this for 40 years time to pay your tax bills and they force you to take out money. And so some folks believe that in retirement they're going to be in a lower tax bracket. And so that's great. They can pay taxes on that money at a lower tax bracket. But if those RMDs or those required distributions are really big because you've been an incredible saver and the market's been on your side, you might not be in a lower tax bracket. You might be in the same bracket or even higher.
- [04:04]
Podcast Host Intro/Outro
Welcome to SEW Money everybody. I'm Farnoosh Tarabi. Our show today is for the woman in the audience who's doing well on paper, earning more, climbing higher, checking the boxes of financial success, and yet still wondering if she is making the smartest moves with her money. Because here's the truth. More income doesn't automatically mean more clarity, more confidence, or even more security. In fact, high earning women often face a unique set of financial blind spots, from over relying on tax strategies to holding too much company stock, to quietly navigating complicated power dynamics at home and at work. And those mistakes can be costly if we don't name them. To help us sift through all of this, I'm joined by someone whose passion for empowering women financially is unmistakable the moment you hear her speak. Financial advisor Maggie Johndro. A partner and financial advisor at John DRO Wealth, Maggie is widely recognized as a trusted voice in personal finance, frequently appearing in outlets like Forbes, NPR and Bloomberg. What I love most about Maggie's work is her mission, opening the doors of financial knowledge that Wall street has historically kept closed, especially for women. In this conversation, we talk about the quiet financial mistakes high earning women make, how taxes can mislead our biggest decisions, what to know about RSUs and stock options before they surprise you with a bill and the emotional and practical react realities of being the breadwinner at home. Here's Maggie Johnreau.
- [05:41]
Farnoosh Torabi
Maggie Johnreau, welcome back to Sew Money. It's so great to see you and happy February.
- [05:47]
Maggie Johndro
Thanks for having me. Happy almost Valentine's Day tomorrow.
- [05:50]
Farnoosh Torabi
I know it's my birthday weekend and thank you. My birthday gift to myself is having you on the show because you're going to answer all my money questions honestly. I have, I have a number of money questions for myself and to extrapolate we're going to have this episode really be about, you know, helping out the high earner in, in, in the audience even if you're not there. I don't want to exclude.
- [06:14]
Maggie Johndro
Right.
- [06:14]
Farnoosh Torabi
I think a lot of what we're going to talk about today is applicable to everybody. Sometimes we. But it's fun to live vicariously through that high earning woman and what, what are her problems? More money, more problems maybe.
- [06:24]
Maggie Johndro
Totally. Yeah. And also, you know, what you're, what you may be if that's what you're aspired to be. These are things you have to be thinking about soon.
- [06:30]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yes, yes, yes. Well, before we get started, let's re acclimate with Maggie Johnre. Let us in on a little of journey. You know, you're helping so many people. I think you're gonna be helping me pretty soon after this call. I got questions for you. We're gonna offline. Tell us how you got into the space of helping largely women with their money.
- [06:49]
Maggie Johndro
Yeah, I, gosh, I didn't think I'd be a financial advisor but I always knew I wanted to help people. I, I truly thought I was gonna go and like work for, I don't know, the World Bank. Truly. That's what I thought.
- [07:01]
Farnoosh Torabi
Cool.
- [07:02]
Maggie Johndro
Because I would help people. And I always felt though that money was power. Right. If you have money, then you have the power and you can make a difference. And so that's what I thought. Through a windy road, I ended up finding myself on Wall street where I don't know if I was really helping people, but I certainly went through finance bootcamp, you know, had to learn how to be a master at Excel and you know, all of that. And it was a high stress environment and I tended to on every team I ever was at, I started at Barclays, I went to J.P. morgan. I was always the only female and I noticed that, you know, a lot of the folks, the powerful folks in the room were not women. And I really, really wanted to change that there weren't a lot of women, there weren't a lot of minorities. Myself, my parents are immigran. I really wanted to change that. Cause again, I still believed that money was power. And so I ended up becoming an independent financial advisor. And yeah, my practice is primarily focused on helping women. We have a primarily women team, but not all women. And also just folks that really want to know how to do this and we don't want to gatekeep, you know, what Wall street has.
- [08:05]
Farnoosh Torabi
So just curious, when a woman comes into your office, works with you, and she's got a male partner, how is that relationship different than maybe a woman walks into a financial advisor's office because the man made the appointment, the husband made the appointment. Is there any difference?
- [08:25]
Maggie Johndro
I honestly think there's a huge difference because I usually get a couple of narratives. The first one is a woman walking in after a bad appointment with a male financial advisor. Just this week I had someone come in and say, I said, how'd you find me? She goes, I googled you and saw you were all women. And that sold me because my uncle's financial advisor was super condescending. Right. And that's not all men.
- [08:47]
Farnoosh Torabi
Right.
- [08:47]
Maggie Johndro
And it's not all women, you know, But I do hear that narrative a lot, unfortunately. I think for us it's a collaborative effort when we work on financial planning, whereas maybe kind of a traditional path would be more like, I know best and I'm just going to implement this for you versus like, let's learn together, let's educate you, let's make collaborative decisions. The other type of narrative I get is actually when a man does drive the relationship and brings in his wife. But often I hear I want her to be involved. And I. And she said to me, it would be more comfortable with you. Right. And I want her to be involved because one, it matters to me. But two, statistically speaking, women tend to outlive men. And so if I'm not here anymore, I need her to know what we're doing to be comfortable with the person that's managing their money or their financial plan, so on and so forth. So those are usually the two narratives I hear, which is great. And then, I mean, the third is like the breadwinning, winning woman who is driving the relationship. And usually the guy is awesome about it because he knew who he married. You know what I mean?
- [09:54]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah. Well, let's talk about some of the quiet financial mistakes that you see show up often with your high earning women clients. What are the most common ones? You see?
- [10:09]
Maggie Johndro
Well, furnish. Can we start with don't letting your taxes guide all of your financial decisions. You and I, right before this, we're talking about that. And so I think if we start there, that's a common maybe mistake or I don't know if that's the right word, but that's something to consider when you are a high earner. You know, all the CPAs that are listening in are going to gasp when I say this. But just because you can get the tax break on it doesn't mean it's necessarily right for you. Short, intermediate or long term goals. Right? So maxing out your 401k, yeah, it's awesome. Or your SEP IRA. But two things. One, what does your cash flow look like today? And two, if you're putting all of your money in deferred taxed accounts, like a pre tax 401k, a pre tax SEP IRA, a traditional IRA, that is all money that you're going to have to take out depending on your age, but let's say by 75 and what's called a required minimum distribution. The IRS at that point is like, hey, you haven't paid taxes on this for 40 years. Time to pay your tax bills and they force you to take out money. And so some folks believe that in retirement they're going to be in a lower tax bracket. And so that's great. They can pay taxes on that money at a lower tax bracket. But if those RMDs or those required distributions are really big because you've been an incredible saver and the market's been on your side, you might not be in a lower tax bracket, you might be in the same bracket or even higher. And then that can impact things like Medicare premiums and other, you know, complex pieces in retirement. So I often am sitting with high earners saying, okay, do we want to actually defer all of this income? Right. Whether it's through divert comp or 401ks, or do we want to put some into Roth or do we want to put just some into a brokerage account?
- [12:05]
Farnoosh Torabi
Right.
- [12:06]
Maggie Johndro
I find that folks in retirement, the ones that are most successful in minimizing their taxes in retirement and in general just having lots of pools of money are ones that have diversified accounts. Right. So not just what's in them, but the actual account type. So pre tax, Roth, you know, brokerage, etc. So that's a big one.
- [12:27]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah, that I hear too. I mean, in general, people just, you're right, they just follow the tax advice and not Our fault because sometimes we're getting that advice from our tax preparers. I will tell, I'll be the first to say that my tax planner, and she's great, Laura, cpa, She's fantastic, really pushes me to make that full SEP IRA contribution every year. And I'll tell you, it's a heavy lift because every year also that limit goes up and she's just like, you're gonna do it, right? I'm like, yeah, sure, let me just like stop eating for two months and then, you know, figure that out. I'm on top of that, Laura. And now I'm kind of at this spot and I think my audience knows this about me because I've been talking about it for weeks now where I'm, I'm like, what would it be like to pause on some of those contributions? Yes. At the expense of maybe not getting the big tax deduction today. But also, what's the gift? Right. I have more liquidity. I could, to your point, even if it's not in cash, put it in a brokerage account where it is more accessible to me in the event that I need some money, as we know, in midlife. And now we're talking about high earning women. We're talking probably a woman who's not 25. Right. Where we're talking about someone who's maybe in her prime earning years are like your late 30s for women. And then if you're continuing to work, that's your 40s and 50s. So the question is, what will happen in your life? We don't know that. Uncertainty. You have to afford it. Affording uncertainty in your 40s when the stakes are higher and there are people depending on you. Nice to have some access to cash and not just rainy day, but like actually maybe a brokerage account where you have been putting away some money for the last several years and hopefully the market's been on your side. Now you have something where you have, you feel like you have options.
- [14:29]
Maggie Johndro
Exactly, exactly. And I think, you know, just for those that maybe don't know the difference between a Roth and a pre tax and a brokerage, for pre tax money, you get the tax deduction today. And Laura's cpa, I get it. My CPA says the same thing. Their goal is to minimize your taxes. That is their purpose, to file and to minimize. And they're doing what their mandate is. But if your long term goal isn't just about paying the lowest taxes, but also living the life you want to live, what does that look like? Right. So for pre Tax, you get the deduction today, which is great, but you must pay the tax in the future. Roth money. Yeah, you pay the taxes today, but it grows tax free for the rest of your life. And for. No, I know you have kids. I have a daughter myself. I think about generational legacy, you know, and Roth money is much more beneficial to leave to children than pre tax money. For example, and then a brokerage account, yes, that money goes in after you've already paid taxes on it. But any growth that you have on it, if it's long term, so a year or longer, is that is taxed at a much more favorable rate. The maximum you could be taxed at is 20%. For most Americans it's going to be 15%. I think Warren Buffett was like famously quoted to say that he pays, you know, less in taxes than, than his executive assistant. And that was the reason because he probably was living off highly appreciated stock which couldn't be taxed more than 20%. And presumably he paid his assistant really well. And so she was probably in the 30 some odd percent ordinary income tax bracket. So I think, you know, taxes are one of those things that if you look at the short term this year. Yeah. Putting as much as you can away into that pre tax is going to be the best bang for your buck in the short term. But what about long term? Right. And that's sort of where financial planners and CPAs like to collaborate because we, we can really, you know, talk through those kind of issues.
- [16:19]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah. For those in the audience who might be receiving stock options, first tell us how, how likely this is. I haven't worked in. Actually I did get stock options during COVID Yeah. When I worked at cnet, owned by Red Ventures. They gave that I would never received stock options. I thought it was, it was so new to me. I had to really learn. And it was an uphill battle to learn. I mean, it's like I learned the hard way there. I, when I remember I left and I had these sort of vested options, whatever you call them, and I had to pay taxes on them. And it was not, it was a big bill, I'll tell you that. Tell me a little bit about how these work, where we go wrong, because I, I feel like I went wrong with these. And I wish I'd had you in my corner at that point. But I mean, good news, I made some money. I had a big bill. I wish I'd known I would have saved that money to pay the bill. And then I was a little, I was scrambling a Little bit, yeah.
- [17:16]
Maggie Johndro
We probably could have like a whole hour discussion of the different types of ways you get compensated with company stock. But I actually think in general we could, we could start with, you know, if you start getting into that like mid level management or higher, there's a high likelihood you're going to have access to stock that could either be through an employee stock purchase program, espp, that really is, simply put, that you get to purchase your company stock at a discount. Usually I see that discount be 10 to 15%. Some people list, don't, don't necessarily do this because again, tax wise it's complex. But you could, some people say, okay, well I'm going to buy it at 15% and I'm just going to sell it and I've made 15% profit. Not so simple. There's taxes involved. Right. But you know, that's something cool to think about. If you believe in your company, you could do that. Then there's things called stock options and then restrictions at stock units or RSUs. I like to just think about that as bonus money. And company, instead of giving you a cash bonus, is giving you a bonus in the form of the company stock. They do this for a couple reasons. One, it tends to be an incentive to keep you to stay because there needs to be something called a vesting period, which I think you mentioned. So vesting simply means you don't actually get access to this until a given date. So most common vesting schedules are like four years, right. So you'll get 25% if you stay one year, 50% if you stay two years, so on, so forth until you hit four years where you get full 100%. That means if you left after year one, you'd only get 25% of this stock that they paid out to you. Right. Whereas if they'd given you a cash bonus, you don't, you don't have that sort of clawback necessarily. Right. So it is a way of people of keeping, of, of keeping employees at a company. The second thing is, you know, if the company does well, then you do well. Right. So it's also a way of having skin in the game, so to speak. So it's all good things.
- [19:10]
Podcast Host Intro/Outro
Most people think their heart health is fine because their cholesterol looks normal. But critical markers like lipoprotein rarely get tested unless you specifically ask for them. And recently I found this out thanks to Function. It's National Heart Month and I've personally been thinking more about my heart health, especially because heart disease runs in my family. And what surprised me was how much I didn't know until I actually saw my recent lab results. And as it turns out, my low density lipoprotein LDL cholesterol, often called bad cholesterol, was slightly out of range. But my report didn't end with that. I also learned through Function, potential root causes, foods to eat, foods to limit, and some ideas for medical intervention. And that's what I really like about function. It doesn't tell you just what to worry about. It shows you what's actually happening in your body. Function is designed by world class physicians and trusted by hundreds of thousands of members. I use this and you should too Own your health and start with your heart. Function gives you access to over 160 lab tests each year, including advanced markers for heart health, inflammation, stress hormones and toxins for $365 a year. That's a dollar a day. Learn more and join using my link. Visit functionhealth.com somoney and use the gift code SOMONEY25 for a $25 credit towards your membership. Ask any small business owner and they'll tell you Finances get messy fast. A bank account here, bookkeeping software there, tax tools and invoicing apps stacked on top. Before long, you're buried in subscriptions, behind on your books and not totally sure where your business really stands. That's why there's Found. Found eliminates the clutter by giving you one platform that handles it all. Banking, bookkeeping, invoices and taxes. No more paying for multiple subscriptions and dealing with clunky, outdated apps. Found is reimagining what business banking should be by putting your bookkeeping, invoicing and tax tools directly into your business checking account. You can even send invoices for free and pay your contractors. Everything. All from one app. Honestly, if I could go back to when I was starting my business, Found would have saved me so much time, money and stress. Take back control of your business today. Open a Found account for free@found.com that's f o u n d dot com. Found is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services are provided by lead bank member fdic. Join the hundreds of thousands who've already streamlined their finances with foundation. One thing I've been trying to do this year is buy fewer pieces but better ones. And that's exactly why I've been loving Quince. Quince is all about elevated essentials that feel effortless, designed for layering, mixing and building a timeless wardrobe that actually lasts. What I recently bought and love from Quince is their Mongolian cashmere funnel neck sweater. It's incredibly soft, warm without being bulky and it just looks polished. Whether I'm wearing it at home or out running around, it's already become one of those pieces I keep reaching for. Quince works directly with safe, ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're getting high quality materials like premium cashmere, organic cotton and European linen without paying for brand markup. The stitching, the fit, the fabric, it all holds up season after season. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com sewmoney for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com somoney to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com somoney.
- [22:52]
Vanta Advertiser
Security and compliance done wrong is a giant headache. Security and compliance done right, that's Vanta. Vanta helps you earn trust and speed up growth. No spreadsheets required. For startups low on time and resources, Vanta becomes your first security hire, using AI and automation to get you compliant fast and unblock big deals for enterprises. Vanta is your AI powered hub for compliance and risk, bringing together data from across your businesses and automating workflows so you can prove trust at any moment. Vanta scales with you at every stage. That's why top companies from startups like Cursor to enterprises like Snowflake choose Vanta do security and compliance right. Get started today@vanta.com tedaudio.
- [23:40]
Maggie Johndro
I was just.
- [23:40]
Farnoosh Torabi
Gonna say I feel like I blocked that from my memory but it's all coming back to me now. And I know what happened was so. It was so bizarre. Good, because I'd never experienced this, but I was at the company and you know, I over every so often your shares vest and then they're like, they send you a letter. They're like, okay, far newsh. Good news. The money is appreciated. The stock options have appreciated. We have paid the taxes for you on the gains.
- [24:09]
Maggie Johndro
Yep. Yep.
- [24:10]
Farnoosh Torabi
So now you have two options. You can either refund us right now at no interest. I was like what? Or you're like, or we could. Yeah. And we could. Well they were like we could like was. Or we could start taking out of your paycheck. I'm like, I don't even have the money yet. Like what is this nonsense? And then here's the thing. The value of the shares dropped precipitously by the time I left the company. So I paid all these taxes on those gains in that moment and then I'm leaving and I, I, my cash out was so much less. But I know nothing against the company.
- [24:48]
Maggie Johndro
Depending on the company. Right. And so yeah, it's not their fault. This is like where financial advisors, I think really shine. I mean furnish, you're very smart on this topic, so you could probably google it and you figured some stuff out. But this can be complex, right? Yeah, because. Exactly. Restricted stock units, which is just company stock, you get that vest over time. Once you've been there for a period of time is literally like a cash bonus. So it's, it's ordinary income to you. So that's your first tax. Then your second tax is if you sell that stock. Right. There's another taxation possibly there. And so yeah, yeah, some many companies will, will withhold the taxes for you like you say, but is it enough? Right. They don't know your financial situation, but and especially if you're married, like your partner's financial situation and you file taxes together. So it's something that you really need to be mindful of and, and make those changes and elect those changes when you get your RSUs. Right.
- [25:44]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah. Worth it to hire a financial advisor just for that piece of it. Even if it's like you know, a few, a few meetings, whatever, on retainer. Because it's complicated.
- [25:55]
Maggie Johndro
It is. And then the other problem you run into is, let's say you figure out that piece like okay, I'm paying taxes on this, on these, on the stock that I'm receiving. And then you believe in the company and you have it appreciate. Right. I have people in the tech industry that really believe in their companies and it's appreciating. Appreciating. Well now they have an over concentration in this stock and like we can believe all the things about our company, but they're all surprises. Right. And so you might feel like you're a millionaire because you got a million dollars in this particular company, but if it goes under tomorrow, you know you now have zero. Right. And I, I know you've preached diversification on your podcast.
- [26:32]
Farnoosh Torabi
I mean seriously, like yes. And there was a anecdote. Sally Kraw, who obviously like Wall street icon, she ran Elevest for many years, admitted on this podcast that during the great financial recession of 2008, 2009, she was over invested. I think like 30% of her net worth was in the bank that she was working at. And then. Or something some high number, right? More. Well more than 10%, which is like the maximum in a single asset. And she's like, yeah, even I was drinking the Kool Aid because she was like the CEO or whatever. You know, everything. Yeah, of course, if you're the CEO, you have to.
- [27:19]
Maggie Johndro
Of course. Right.
- [27:20]
Farnoosh Torabi
They're not gonna let you just have 5%. You need to like all. It's like, you know, you're in the club, you got, you're in the sorority now, the fraternity.
- [27:27]
Maggie Johndro
Yeah.
- [27:27]
Farnoosh Torabi
Wow.
- [27:28]
Maggie Johndro
30% of it or probably not 30.
- [27:30]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah, well, not all of it, but certainly more than she would have liked. And I think it was a real gut, gutting thing because you're like, I knew better. I knew better than to do that. Right.
- [27:41]
Maggie Johndro
And you know what? And that's again, where like you got to take the emotional out of it. Right. Because you might know that this stock is going to continue to go up or you might believe that.
- [27:51]
Farnoosh Torabi
That.
- [27:51]
Maggie Johndro
I'm not telling you to get rid of all of it. I'm telling you to just manage the concentration risk. Right.
- [27:56]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah.
- [27:57]
Maggie Johndro
Put it into something else. Right. And. And you can. If the stock continues to go up, you'll still get it on a portion. Right. But I, I can't tell you, I've seen it where, where people are like, oh, but it's still going to do well. It's still going to do well. And then they didn't sell when maybe it was advised to sell or they had an over concentration and maybe it wasn't an extreme 2008 scenario, but the stock fell as they do. Right. Because the of markets in general. And then they're, they're kicking themselves for not getting rid of it sooner. So, you know, again, working with an advisor is probably a good place here. I swear, this is not a plug for that. I just think this stuff is complex, but if you don't then think about what is the sale price that I'm going to be happy with. Set a limit order to sell at that price and never look at it again. Right. And let it sell and then reinvest because you're going to be emotional about it. And so you got to take the emotional out of it.
- [28:42]
Farnoosh Torabi
Right. You know, we just did a little bit of an episode. We did a whole episode this month on women and men and money. We spent a bit of that time focused on breadwinner women.
- [28:56]
Grow Therapy Advertiser
Yeah.
- [28:57]
Farnoosh Torabi
Sorry, I'll let you pick up your phone.
- [28:59]
Maggie Johndro
Oh, no, no, it's my garage.
- [29:01]
Farnoosh Torabi
Oh, the drilling.
- [29:03]
Maggie Johndro
Yeah.
- [29:03]
Farnoosh Torabi
Okay, no worries. Okay, good. Asking us to be in. Earlier this month we had a Guest on a professor from Cornell University who focuses on money and the dynamics in relationships pertaining to money. And she's currently working on a study about high earning women and breadwinner women and interesting data she's already discovered about how that influences their spending decisions as a couple. I'll put a link to that episode for anyone who wants to hear, but I'd love to hear from you, from your clients and just, you know, your lived experience. In terms of like, what are the, the unique dynamics that you find in these relationships where she makes more, like when they show up to these meetings with you and if she is the higher earner, what is happening subconsciously, consciously, that you feel like could be problematic for the couple? Whether it's that, you know, I'll give an example. I, in some cases have interviewed women who are sole breadwinners, like, like making more. They are the only ones making money in the relationship and yet they will say things like, well, I'm just good at making money, I'm not good at managing it. And I don't know. That's not true. Like, come on. And it's almost like a way to defer to the man to say, you know, I'm deferring my power a little bit to him because I don't want to take on this entire. I don't want to feel or seem as though I'm like money dominant in the relationship because a, that's not what my gender traditionally expects of me as a woman. And also I'm worried about his ego. Also, I'm feeling like there might be some friction because of the fact that I make more in the relationship and I'm trying to ease the waters and, and I know that I just like did a whole therapy session on that, but I do think there are these subtleties that keep us playing small and also undermine who we really are as financially badass women. And there should be no shame in that.
- [31:16]
Maggie Johndro
Yeah, I mean, Fidelity came out with a study a couple years ago that said inherently, when they looked at data, women had better returns on investment management than men. And they chalked it up a lot to the la. You know, the, the, the lack of emotional tie to this. Right. No, I'm just gonna do what I'm supposed to do and invest it and let it be and, you know, meet with whoever I need to meet with and collect the data and let it ride. Right. As opposed to like going, you know, to a golf course or whatever and hearing the last hot tip and like having to go and change your portfolio. You know, so I mean, the studies have proven, right, that, that women are good at investing money. In fact, very good. And so it is interesting and I loved that line you said when, oh, he's inherently better at it. I have seen a lot of stuff. I, I have a 2 year old, so I'm a fairly new mother about. And so I'm in this corner of the Internet of like working moms, right? And it's, it's a hopeful corner. And I've seen stuff the opposite, which is, you know, the men saying, well, you're just, you're just better at bath time, you're just, you're just better at bedtime. And if that, if that frustrates you to hear that, then why are you willing to say it on the other end? Right? Because, no, we need to. We are equal partners. This is a household that we are equally contributing to, whether it's financially or through domestic labor. Right? And so we need to think about how to, to properly, you know, divvy that up and, you know, especially. And I think there's some things that you especially both need to have a pulse on. And often I find whether it's domestic labor or financial management, outsourcing sometimes helps simply because then it's not, I'm better than you, you're worse than me, I'm handling this, you're not handling this. Nope, somebody else got it. And we're both going to come to the table and we're going to learn about it together. We're going to see the final product together or put in the inputs together and then walk away and get to do what we do best, whatever that may be for you. Right? So it's funny, I usually see, and again, it's all anecdotal, but this story is a common thread where women are solo breadwinners, like no one else is working or the primary breadwinner. And I hear less frustration about money management and less like, usually the partners are great. They're like, oh yeah, she's doing a great job and like, we're meeting with you and you know, this was her choice, but I feel comfortable with you. We're good because they've outsourced that piece. Right? But I hear struggles with, yeah, but he's still really bad at making school lunches. And he, you know, my kids still go with five, two different pairs of socks on a school. And like, why can't he handle that when I'm making the money? That's actually where I hear a big struggle with less than. And Maybe feelings of inadequacy on the financial side.
- [34:09]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah. I mean, I remember a crazy statistic when I was writing When She Makes More, where it found that when she makes more, she actually does more housework.
- [34:21]
Maggie Johndro
I read that.
- [34:22]
Farnoosh Torabi
And you just look at, like, in general, women who work, right? Women who are out there earning a paycheck equal to their male partners. They are still putting in more hours in the home, not necessarily doing the dishes more or cleaning more, because, like, to your point, a lot of times we outsource that. But it's the emotional and the mental load, right, of, like, planning the birthday parties, thinking about all the doctor appointments, Christmas presents, Christmas holiday stuff, travel, all that. That's, like, often shouldered by the mom. Yeah, it's a lot. And gosh, it's like, never ending. But, yeah, you're right. I think it's important to figure out where to invest. And I do think women are better at this than the men when it comes to knowing where in the household we need to invest to get the most roi. Right? How to protect Mom. Protecting mom is very important, right?
- [35:22]
Maggie Johndro
Very important.
- [35:23]
Farnoosh Torabi
Sorry. Everyone needs to be protected, but the mom is the default. The kids, happy.
- [35:29]
Maggie Johndro
Mom means happy kid. Let's be honest. Honestly.
- [35:31]
Farnoosh Torabi
And it. I wish it wasn't that way. You know, I wish it was the other way, or I wish it was equal. But, like, in many families, it's the kids just, like, default to mom. I mean, yesterday I took my son to an eye appointment, and his dad, our dad Tim, met us there. And when he walked in, he's like, why is dad here? You're here. I'm like, because he wants to be here. It's an important. It was an important eye appointment. And he was like, but you got this covered, right, Mom?
- [36:02]
Maggie Johndro
Right. And the thing is, to give credit where it's due, I think that the statistics have also shown that men and fathers have showed up more than they ever have, you know, in the past, which is awesome. Like you said, like, at the eye doctor, you know, like 50 years ago, no one's showing up at the eye doctor except for mom, right? Like, my daughter had a Valentine's Day party yesterday at school, and a lot of dads showed up with moms. It was great, you know, but you're right. It unfortunately is still or fortunately. I think it's like a beautiful. Like a blessing and a curse, right? Like, it's a beautiful blessing to be needed by and loved by your kids. But, yeah, it did still fall on us. And so you're right. Like, how do we outsource? And I remember, look at, my husband's really great at being an equal partner, but I remember one time I was outsourcing to something and he goes, do we really need to pay for that? And I go, go, well, are you gonna do it? And he was like, yeah, exactly.
- [37:02]
Farnoosh Torabi
Brings me to another point that I want to make. And I will. And I, and I want to make this point because it illustrates why it's so great to be a woman who makes money.
- [37:13]
Maggie Johndro
Yes, yes. Okay.
- [37:15]
Farnoosh Torabi
In the event that you want to grow your family. Right. You want to bring a child into the picture, I, and this could just be my lived experience, but I've lived a long life enough. I've lived, I've lived enough to know, I've seen enough to say this with some conviction that when. And I, and I'll, I'll just use myself as an example. When I was getting pregnant and I was having kids and I was making more, I was incredibly empowered by the fact that I was making this money and I could, like, I knew exactly how to organize my life and where to invest to be able to protect my work and protect the family. Yep. It was a no brainer. Of course we're going to hire a full time nanny. Of course we're going to make it. So, you know, I start this podcast and I am working from home and I can be accessible to our kids. And you know, of course we're going to get the best stroller. Of course we're going to like, you know, do this, this. And I feel like it was always like, of course. Yeah, because I, I have, we have the money.
- [38:24]
Maggie Johndro
This is, this is why I work. This is why I work.
- [38:27]
Farnoosh Torabi
And on the flip side, when I look at couples where she's not making money or making very little compared to his salary and they want to have kids and now it's like, oh, wait, we're going to bring in child care. We're gonna bring in a caregiver. Well, when you're only making so much money, why don't you just quit your job? Yep. Excuse me, what? Or you like, can we recognize that this child care is helpful to everybody?
- [38:55]
Maggie Johndro
Everybody. And also, if you do quit your job, I mean, how many people do I know who are stay at home moms? Which, by the way, super hard job, super hard.
- [39:06]
Farnoosh Torabi
Some guy got online the other day, it was, went viral. He was like, being a stay at home mom is not that hard. You know what's hard? Being an electrician. I was like, okay, man, okay.
- [39:18]
Maggie Johndro
I don't know about you, but after the weekend I'm like, I'm so glad Monday's back. I'm, you know, I love my kid, but I, I'm tired. Right?
- [39:25]
Grow Therapy Advertiser
Yeah.
- [39:25]
Maggie Johndro
So, I mean it's a really hard job. And I hear them say, well, I feel like I can't really get a babysitter or you know, my, my, my husband just got back from the city and, and you know, is, is really tired and I'm like, like he worked an eight to nine hour day. You worked an eight to nine hour day. Now you guys have to come together. And again, whether you outsource that help in the evening or you help each other out or whatever it is, but you know. Yeah, I mean Aaron is, it shouldn't be a 24 hour gig. Right?
- [39:54]
Farnoosh Torabi
Right.
- [39:54]
Maggie Johndro
Your job isn't. My job isn't, you know, like, I'm sure it happens.
- [39:58]
Farnoosh Torabi
I'm sure the higher earning woman in the household will look at her male husband and go, why don't you quit your job when we're having this kid? And I'm sure those conversations happens and I'm sure he does quit his job in some occas, but less so. And I don't think that, you know, she, she's just not going to nickel a dime, you know, when it comes.
- [40:18]
Maggie Johndro
Less so, by the way.
- [40:20]
Farnoosh Torabi
Why?
- [40:20]
Maggie Johndro
Because the anecdotally what I've heard is because I wouldn't be very good at the domestic stuff. So I would rather work simply to pay for someone that is good at the domestic stuff because it wouldn't be fulfilling to me. I'm not good at it. I mean, this is what I've heard, right. And so the assumption is that if someone's told to quit job, right. It's one thing if it's your choice and you're like, no, I really like this. Like, I love this. Right. But if someone's telling you to do it and you're like, but that doesn't feel fulfilling to me. Listen to that. Right. It's not fair that just because you're a woman that should be more fulfilling.
- [40:54]
Farnoosh Torabi
To you than, yeah, we don't give ourselves permission.
- [40:56]
Maggie Johndro
Exactly.
- [40:57]
Farnoosh Torabi
Right. Yeah. And it's not, it's not considered virtuous to be honest, to be like, you know what, I would rather leave my house and leave my child and go work. Like that's not, that's how it's sold right. To those dudes. You don't approve and is, oh, you're abandoning your family. It's like, well, actually, let's just see how this all plays out and then come and bark up my tree. Right?
- [41:20]
Maggie Johndro
And Farnish, I have to tell you that someone quoted you me to me the other day and I'm like, oh, yeah, I know her. But they basically like what you usually preach, which is, hey, your money is not just, you know, to cover daycare, whatever you have to think about, about adding into Social Security, adding into your.
- [41:39]
Farnoosh Torabi
Oh yeah, it's a big calculus.
- [41:40]
Maggie Johndro
Taking that leave and then coming back into the workforce is pretty expensive. Like, you know, you're probably not going to be able to get the same job, your pay is lower. All of the things you've talked about on this podcast, someone quoted it to me and they're like, yeah, I heard this. Great. Oh great, let's talk about it. And I was like, yes, we're making completely agree with you.
- [41:59]
Farnoosh Torabi
The needle, Maggie, not just about dollars.
- [42:01]
Maggie Johndro
Today, you know, down.
- [42:03]
Farnoosh Torabi
It's not. It's a huge consideration we are throwing. It's. Yes. And so, you know, just, it's important to be transparent with people. Right. Still, if you think staying, being a primary caregiver and not working outside of the home, earning that paycheck, if that is your choice, yes, like, I mean, more power to you. You're doing this consciously and with conviction. And you know, you know the cost of it. There's a cost to that. Just like there is a cost to working and not being at home with your kids potentially. But like you, it's about that cost benefit analysis that's very personal to everybody. But you gotta give everybody, you gotta give everybody the right variables to work with.
- [42:42]
Maggie Johndro
And hey, just because you're a stay at home doesn't mean you don't still have a say in the money. Doesn't mean you shouldn't know what's going on. And if, if you are outsourcing that to your husband, to your partner, I would strongly encourage you to say, no, let's get a third party and let's make sure it's not your friend from college. Okay, let's get a third party that we both interview and agree upon and we can have our annual meeting. So I know what's going on because I have my certified divorce financial analyst designation. I work with a lot of divorcees and I have to tell you, you need to know what's going on so that if, God, you're in that position where things don't work out and you are getting divorced, you know what is rightfully yours because we are giving you Know, we are saying working from home is just as important as working outside of the home. Well, that means that anything is earned as a household, part of it is rightfully yours. Right. And you just want to make sure that it's all set up that way too. Right. And so just because you're not earning doesn't mean you shouldn't be involved in the money.
- [43:43]
Farnoosh Torabi
It's louder for, I, I joked the other day, louder for the trad wives in the back. But I'm like, honestly, I don't think any trad wives are listening to this show. But yeah, it's so, it's so important. And now you brought up divorce. I, I think let's hit on this a little bit more because as a high earning woman, are there mistakes that she's making that others don't? You know, maybe it's like giving up too much. I don't know. I mean, now your alimony works both ways, right? I mean, what are, what at least, what are the things to keep an eye out for, know about before you get in, get too deep into it?
- [44:19]
Maggie Johndro
Yeah, I mean what I just said really works on both sides. Right. You want to make sure that you understand what your partner is spending on that you have those continued meetings, et cetera. I'm a big proponent of prenups. You know, I think a lot of people see it as something negative, but I think of it as, you don't take out life insurance because you're hoping you're gonna die. You take out life insurance in case you do die and you protect your family. Right. And so a prenup, you take it out in case you get a divorce. I hope you don't, but at least it's there to help guide you when you guys were happy, probably had less, et cetera, but you could do post nups. So I have seen this, that as somebody becomes a really high income earner, especially business owner, I do see them do postnups saying, hey, if we got a divorce one day, like half of this is going to go to you, half of this, you know, and, and I don't know if I agree with that. And, and, and you know, that's a conversation to have. Like, I, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but at least it lets you have that conversation. Especially like family businesses. I've seen that.
- [45:24]
Farnoosh Torabi
Right.
- [45:24]
Maggie Johndro
Like this is something my dad built and I, you know, I took over and could we come to an agreement where you're still going to be okay in the event of divorce, but I'm not ne giving you my entire legacy. Cause I actually want it to go to our kids. Right. More than you, I want to go to our kids because things that happen, right, is after divorce, people get remarried and then there's maybe other kids involved, you know, and there's a new spouse involved. So, you know, those are things to think about. Like, you could structure a postnup to say, like, I want, if we got a divorce like this to go to our kids, or I want our kids to be okay. And yeah, I might have to pay you alimony as well. But it, you know, you have to think about, like, what if there's a blended family afterwards? One that you're not involved in anymore? You know, how do you see that being structured? So I. I like to think about those things when everyone's still happy and healthy and married or getting married versus when everyone's angry, you know?
- [46:16]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah. I also, I gotta wonder what it's like when in the middle of a marriage, someone goes, I think we should get a post op.
- [46:26]
Jerry Insurance Advertiser
Right.
- [46:26]
Farnoosh Torabi
Okay. Something could be. Yeah.
- [46:30]
Maggie Johndro
I mean, afoot. Yeah. Yeah, it could be. I mean, at the very least, make sure that your wills, your trusts, you know, your. Your powers, attorneys are all those are set up correctly. Make sure your beneficiaries are set up correctly. Beneficiaries supersede wills. So if you have a 401k and it says everything should go to Farnoosh, but your will says everything should go to Maggie, if you pass away, it's all going to go to Farnoosh, despite what your will says. So, you know, you just want to really make sure that especially, you know, if. If you're concerned about any other. This trust work is really important with an estate planning attorney and your financial advisor. That's important. You know, I always see people really wanting to make sure their kids are all set. Right.
- [47:10]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah.
- [47:11]
Maggie Johndro
In the end, like, if they got a divorce and their spouse ends up, they're going to be all right. They want to make sure it mostly goes to their kids, you know?
- [47:18]
Farnoosh Torabi
Right. This has been so helpful, and I can't help but, like, feel very selfish in a lot of this interview. Like, I'm getting a lot of benefit out of this person.
- [47:30]
Maggie Johndro
Right. If one person benefits, it's great. It was worth our time.
- [47:33]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah. At least. Hey, if I gotta take care of, you know, number one over here. Yeah. Give us some parting advice. You know, if there's a, like a financial truth that you wish every woman, regardless of income and net worth, that she needs to understand earlier, as early on as possible. What is that about? Money, obviously.
- [47:53]
Maggie Johndro
Yeah. I mean, should I, like, like, trademark this? Because I always say it, but you can pretty much borrow for anything in life, but you can't borrow for retirement. So start saving. Whether it's in the form of a retirement account, a brokerage account, Roth. All the things we talked about as soon as possible. I have heard people say, well, I love my job, I'm going to work forever. I hope that's the case for you. But life doesn't always allow that sickness, family layoffs. And so we can borrow to get a house. We can borrow, you know, to, to go to school. We can borrow to get a car. But there's no place to borrow for retirement. So think about your future self as soon as possible.
- [48:35]
Farnoosh Torabi
So important, your future self. I know. I'm turning. We're recording this. It's my couple days before my birthday. And I got a little sad this week because I was like, I haven't even thought about what I want to do on my birthday. I mean, that's kind of like, I think, symbolic of being in midlife with a lot on your plate. You're like, telling, I mean, I am taking care of my retirement. Thank God, because that's on autopilot. Can I just also put, like, birthdays on autopilot? Like, in terms of, like, the party planning and the dinner planning and the, you know, because I've just been so busy with everything that you forget about yourself. You forget about celebrating your own life.
- [49:17]
Maggie Johndro
I truly, I thought it was the joke when people said they forgot how old they were. And I swear I thought I was a year younger.
- [49:22]
Farnoosh Torabi
I mean, I do forget sometimes. I mean, what I do that's a mistake is I will fast forward my age too soon. All week I'm like, I'm 46. I'm like, no, girl, you are still 45. Enjoy it while it lasts. I had that inner voice. I was going up the escalator at Penn Station. I was like, well, this is it. I'm 46 now. And I was like, what? No, I have five more days.
- [49:46]
Maggie Johndro
I know. So what are you gonna do on your birthday?
- [49:49]
Farnoosh Torabi
Well, we're gonna go to Philadelphia with the, with my family. We're gonna do a road trip. Airline flights are so expensive. And, you know, we have a bit of a four day weekend. I was like, no, we're just gonna drive to Philly and like, just, you know, have good dinners, go to a museum, see friends. And then for my, you know, for my Adult celebration. Maybe like a dinner with my husband and another couple. And then about. I joked on the show of getting this like red light therapy mask. The doctor. What is it? I don't know.
- [50:25]
Maggie Johndro
Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I don't know the doctor's name, but the red light therapy masks, I also was thinking about getting one. My husband is a scientist and so I asked him, I said, is this for real? And he does say there are some preliminary studies that do say it reduces wrinkles. So.
- [50:42]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yes, yes.
- [50:43]
Maggie Johndro
I mean, I, I hope he's not mad that I said that, but. Preliminary studies, yeah.
- [50:48]
Farnoosh Torabi
And my girlfriend and I, we always do our, you know, we try to do birthdays together and we might go to what, do a spa day. There's a place called Sojo's in. Yeah. And you know, so, you know, well, I'll, I'll figure it out. Last year I went to Paris for my 45th and I big one. I gotta like, relax a little bit this year. But literally at the spot spa, make it fun spa. And red light therapy. On my face, I joke I'm gonna look like a hockey player or, you know, with the mask, but lit up in red. Like it's.
- [51:22]
Maggie Johndro
Well, hockey's in right now. It's the Olympics. There's heated rivalry moment. So you're gonna be, you know, they're gonna love the ask. And also in the end, like, who cares if it works, if it makes you feel good? I just feel like warmth or like red, like light on your teeth. It's winter. It's gonna feel a little pampering.
- [51:39]
Farnoosh Torabi
I mean, I mean, it's expensive, but I rationalize it. It's like three facials.
- [51:44]
Maggie Johndro
There you go.
- [51:45]
Farnoosh Torabi
It'll pay for itself in like a few months. Yeah, that's great. In a year maybe, I don't know.
- [51:49]
Maggie Johndro
You can do it at your house.
- [51:51]
Farnoosh Torabi
You know what? I've earned it.
- [51:53]
Maggie Johndro
Yes, because you work.
- [51:55]
Farnoosh Torabi
Because I work.
- [51:55]
Maggie Johndro
You work hard.
- [51:56]
Farnoosh Torabi
I work hard. Maggie Johndro, thank you so much.
- [52:00]
Maggie Johndro
Oh, thank you. It was wonderful. And happy birthday.
- [52:03]
Farnoosh Torabi
Thank you.
- [52:06]
Podcast Host Intro/Outro
Thanks so much to Maggie Johndrow for joining us. Learn more about her and her team@johnd wealth.com I'll see you back here on Friday for AskFarnouche.
- [52:15]
Farnoosh Torabi
And I hope your day is so.
- [52:17]
Podcast Host Intro/Outro
Money.
- [52:31]
Vanta Advertiser
Security and compliance done wrong is a giant headache. Security and compliance done right, that's Vanta. Vanta helps you earn trust and speed up growth. No spreadsheets required. For startups low on time and resources, Vanta becomes your first security hire, using AI and automation to get you compliant fast and unblock big deals for enterprises. Vanta is your AI powered hub for compliance and risk, bringing together data from across your businesses and automating workflows so you can prove trust at any moment. Vanta scales with you at every stage. That's why top companies from startups like Cursor to enterprises like Snowflake choose Vanta do security and compliance right. Get started today@vanta.com tedaudio shipping, billing, admin, Payroll, marketing.
- [53:19]
Stamps.com Advertiser
You're managing all the things, so why waste time sending important documents the old fashioned way? Mail and ship when you want, how you want with stamps.com print postage on demand 247 and schedule pickups from your office or home. Save up to 90% with automated rate shopping. That's why over 1 million small businesses trust stamps.com go to stamps.com and use code podcast to try stamps.com risk free for 60 days.