1961: The Psychology of Never Enough. Why High-Achievers Still Feel Empty and How to Fix It

Summary

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So Money with Farnoosh Torabi

Episode 1961: The Psychology of Never Enough – Why High-Achievers Still Feel Empty and How to Fix It

Guest: Brooke Taylor (Former Google exec, coach, author of "Healing the Success Wound")
Air Date: March 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the deep-seated feeling of "never enough" among high achievers—a phenomenon Brooke Taylor calls the "success wound." Farnoosh Torabi hosts an intimate, introspective conversation about why those who seem to have it all often feel empty or unfulfilled, how this dynamic emerges, and the practical ways to heal from it. The discussion focuses on the roots of ambition, the psychological implications of chasing achievement, and how these themes play out in careers, finances, relationships, and parenting.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining the “Success Wound”

• [02:24 & 06:12] Brooke Taylor introduces her core concept:

  "The success wound is the pain that comes from mistaking success, productivity and achievement for self worth. It's a feeling like no matter how much you achieve, it never feels like enough... you race to find more... and in my experience, this is a universal human experience. It especially shows up in high achievers." (Brooke, 06:12)

• Three common traits among those with a success wound:

  • Early childhood experience of conditional love tied to achievement
  • Persistent emptiness and restlessness relieved only by validation
  • Habitual seeking of external accomplishments to fill an “empty cup” feeling

2. Archetypes of Unfulfilled Achievers

• [09:56–13:49] Brooke's research with over 5,000 women surfaced five types:

  • The Grinder: Finds value in relentless productivity; struggles to let go of doing
  • The Hider: Holds big dreams but avoids risk due to fear of failure or insecurity
  • The Pleaser: Obsesses over workplace approval, often at the expense of personal needs
  • The Seeker: Jumps from goal to goal seeking fulfillment, often feeling lost or in crisis
  • Work Hard, Play Hard: Achieves a lot but relies on unhealthy escapism for “balance”

• Gender nuance:

  "The word that came up most often for women was the word 'balance.' For men, it was the word 'provider.' Right. Money, power, etc." (Brooke, 13:33)

3. Why the Cycle is So Hard to Break

• [08:59–09:20]

  "It's become an identity for you, hasn't it?…it's not because you love winning or approval that you're doing it. It's because…you might not know who you are without it." (Brooke, 08:59)

• [15:14–16:45]
  The core belief for “grinders”: Love, control, and safety are earned through the volume of work produced. The nervous system becomes "wired" for constant over-performance.

4. Brooke Taylor's Personal Story: Breakdown as Awakening

• [17:02–22:15]

  • Upbringing: Raised in Silicon Valley, where success and being “extraordinary” was everything
  • Career: Fast success at Google—managing $80 million at 24
  • Downfall: Burnout, dependence on external approval, work hard/play hard coping
  • Turning Point: Within three weeks, faced sexual harassment, realized a problem with alcohol and people-pleasing, and received her father’s terminal cancer diagnosis
  • Rebuilding:

    "I did have to get to work to find a new way of working and relating to myself and to my job." (Brooke, 24:24)

• Addiction and Achievement Parallels:

  "The root of addiction... is this hole, this emptiness, this void... I was treating this spiritual malady with achievement and productivity." (Brooke, 21:30)

5. How the Success Wound Manifests in Our Financial Lives

• [27:35–30:27]

  • Pleaser: Avoids negotiating for raises or promotions to not ruffle feathers; often takes on extra work without additional compensation
  • Hider: Avoids looking at finances entirely—neglects investments, payments, savings
  • Grinder: Assumes performance will speak for itself; undervalues self in negotiations and fails to advocate for fair compensation

• Actionable tactics:
  For grinders, it's crucial to focus on essential priorities and learn that “done is better than perfect”—also, to raise awareness of their contributions.

6. Generational Patterns and Parenting

• [34:27–37:33]
  • Reinforcement of achievement over resilience:

    "When we reward intellectual based achievements, it reinforces the part of the brain that's in charge of intellect... not resilience."

  • Key learnings for kids: Make meaning out of setbacks, and teach that intrinsic value comes from "being, not doing."
  • Reverse-engineer affirmations: Teach children that “you are enough,” encourage finding satisfaction in their efforts, not only results.

7. Turning Wounds into Superpowers

• [38:35–39:15]
  • For the “pleaser” type, when healed, their strong empathy and attunement to others can become a major strength or “superpower.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Achievement as Addiction:

  "I'd go to my Google meetings and I'd be like, actually, these are addicts too. Yeah, and these people are addicted to the more, more, better, faster." (Brooke, 21:45)

• On Why Achievement Feels Empty:

  "You race to find more. Another promotion, another validation, another piece of good feedback… it never feels like enough." (Brooke, 06:12)

• On Parenting and Breaking the Cycle:

  "What if we could inculcate in our kids from the beginning—you could care for people without carrying them. Or your purpose is to be you in any given situation. Or your value comes from your being, not your doing." (Brooke, 37:20)

• On Negotiations:

  "Grinders tend to over index on the belief that my performance will speak for itself because I'm doing so much that should be enough… They need to embrace the idea that done is better than perfect, and I need to be raising awareness around the work that I'm doing." (Brooke, 30:58)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:24 & 06:12] – Defining the “success wound”
• [09:56–13:49] – The five archetypes of unfulfilled achievers
• [14:50–16:45] – How the “grinder” archetype backfires and prevents advancement
• [17:02–24:24] – Brooke’s personal breakdown and spiritual awakening
• [27:35–30:27] – Manifestations of the success wound in financial life
• [34:27–37:33] – Generational patterns and advice for parenting
• [38:35–39:15] – When pleasing becomes a superpower

---

Takeaways

• The drive to achieve is often rooted in early conditioning and tied to self-worth.
• Healing the "success wound" requires becoming aware of these dynamics, releasing identity attachment to doing, and learning to value oneself for being.
• In both careers and finances, high-achievers must consciously advocate for their worth rather than waiting for validation.
• For parents, focus on rewarding resilience and being rather than just accomplishment or intellect.
• Empathy, intuition, and care—when not grounded in codependence—can be transformative strengths.

---

Closing Notes

Brooke’s forthcoming book, Healing the Success Wound: Align Your Ambition, Find Lasting Career Fulfillment, and End the Cycle of Never Enough, launches May 26, 2026.

Farnoosh closes with:

"Thank you so much for coming back on the show and congrats on becoming a mom." (Farnoosh, 39:44)

---

This episode is a must-listen for anyone questioning why outward success doesn’t always bring inner satisfaction and for those ready to heal the ever-present chase of “more.”

Transcript

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[So Money Podcast Intro/Outro]

You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Tarabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnoosh herself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to SO money.

[Brooke Taylor]

So the success wound is the pain that comes from mistaking success, productivity and achievement for self worth. It's a feeling like no matter how much you achieve, it never feels like enough. You're not able to hold on to the pride or the fulfillment or the satisfaction that comes from your achievements. And so what do you do? You race to find more. Another promotion, another piece of validation, another piece of good feedback, another piece of, you know, another good job. And in my experience, this is a universal human experience. It's something that we all struggle with, but it especially shows up in High Achievers.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Welcome to so Money, everybody.

I'm Farnoosh Tarabi. You know, there are some so many conversations that I have that really stay with me.

Not because they're clever or even particularly

polished, but because they hold up a mirror in a way I wasn't really expecting. And this was one of those conversations for me. Going into this, I thought, we're going to be talking about ambition, career, success, all the things I've spent my entire life chasing, analyzing, and frankly helping other people navigate. But somewhere along the way, this interview turned inward and I found myself a little exposed. Because what our guest, Brooke Taylor, helped me see almost in real time, is that for so many of us, especially high achievers, the drive to succeed isn't always about the success itself. It's about something deeper, something harder to name, something we may not even realize we're trying to fix. And Brooke calls this the success wound. Brooke is a former Google executive turned researcher and coach who has spent years studying this exact phenomenon, interviewing thousands upon thousands of women to understand why so many accomplished, capable people still feel like it's never enough. Her new book is coming out soon. It's called Healing the Success. Align your ambition, find lasting career fulfillment, and end the cycle of never enough. And she puts language and solutions to something I think so many of us have felt but couldn't quite articulate. In our conversation, we unpack what the success wound really is, why achievement can become a stand in for self worth, the five archetypes of high achievers who struggle with fulfillment and how all of this shows up not just in our careers, but also in our finances, our relationships, and even how we parent. We also discuss Brooke's own turning point, which she calls her spiritual awakening breakdown, and how it led her to rethink everything she thought she knew about work, ambition and identity. Let's get into it.

Brooke Taylor, welcome back to Sew Money.

[Brooke Taylor]

I'm so happy to be here. I can't wait to talk to you more.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

I was joking before we were recording that it's been a book minute because last you were on. We knew you were on the road to publishing a book, and here we are, just weeks away.

[Brooke Taylor]

I know. That's right. Book comes out May 26, and it's been over two years since we spoke. So I've written a book in that. I had a baby in that time. He's now one.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Oh, my gosh.

[Brooke Taylor]

Yeah, his name's Crosby. So that's been a whole other. Yeah, my husband and I met on Crosby street in Soho. So thus the name.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

I love that. I love that. And I love Crosby street and I love Soho. And I love your book. It's called Healing the Success Wound for those who may have missed the last time you were on so money, take us back to identifying a success wound. Because you actually, you had a personal flare up with this, and then, of course, it inspired a book. But tell us what you mean by the success wound.

[Brooke Taylor]

Yeah, so the success wound is the pain that comes from mistaking success, productivity, and achievement for self worth. It's a feeling like no matter how much you achieve, it never feels like enough. You're not able to hold on to the pride or the fulfillment or the satisfaction that comes from your achievements. And so what do you do? You race to find more. Another promotion, another. Another piece of validation, another piece of good feedback, another piece of, you know, another good job. And in my experience, this is a universal human experience. It's something that we all struggle with, but it especially shows up in high achievers. And there's a unique way in which it shows up in women, too. But people who have a success wound, they typically have three things in common. They had a childhood experience of feeling like no matter what they did, it was never enough in the eyes of maybe parents or caregivers. Like, their worthiness of love and belonging was contingent upon what they produced, achieved, and did, rather than who they are. The second is they all felt this sort of emptiness, this restlessness, irritability and discontentedness that was only fixed through another achievement or another piece of validation. And then the third is the habit of seeking things outside of yourself to fill that empty cup feeling. Yep. And again, in my research, I think this is a pretty universal experience, but it's the first time we have language for what it is.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yep, I'm right there. I'm right there. It occurred to me only in working with somebody else and seeing how different we were in our working styles and how I seemingly would just go, go, go, go, go, and was, you know, people would be like, wow, you're so, like, efficient. Wow, you're so productive. Oh, my gosh, you're getting so much done. And they'd be like, we so appreciate you. And it was all these compliments. And I was like, I don't even care that people are appreciating my work. Like, for me, I just need to be doing this to feel alive. Like, I don't know if you've heard this too come up in your. In your research. I've had a hard time kind of self diagnosing what it is about my desire to work so hard because it's not for the achievement so much much. I feel like maybe for a while it was, but now I just feel like it's all I know how to. It's the only way I know how to work is to work a lot and hard and a hundred miles per hour. And it could just be the conditioning. Do you find that to be sort of like the affect of not unpacking and reconciling with the success wound is like you sort of get into midlife and even though you have achieved a lot and you don't need to work as hard anymore, you still do?

[Various Advertisers]

Yes.

[Brooke Taylor]

Because it's become an identity for you, hasn't it? Right. Yes. Yes. I am the get stuff done person. I'm the person who has two podcasts. I'm the person who. For whom, you know, it's not because you love winning or approval that you're doing it. It's because I'm guessing you might not know who you are without it. Right. Right.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Oh, my gosh. Okay. Well, I'll send you a therapy check in the mail. You interviewed 5,000 women, though. So talk about your research. And, you know, you talked to women at very sort of, I guess I can say this, like, stressful companies, high intense companies like Google McKinsey. And you identified several types of these unfulfilled achievers, these archetypes. Can you walk us through some of them and maybe, maybe I'll find myself in one of these archetypes.

[Brooke Taylor]

Yeah, I have a hunch which one you are. So, yes, I interviewed over 5,000 women, women who work at Fortune 100 companies who identify as somebody who doubts if she can have the heights of success and the depths of fulfillment that she so desperately wants, who has a very capable brain, very smart at strategizing problem solving, but can't seem to fix this problem, which is the problem of how to actually feel fulfilled while she's working. And so what the data showed is that there are five different ways that this success wound shows up in women specifically. Now, I think this is a universal experience, but I'll talk about the difference between men and women at the end. So the five types of unfulfilled achievers. The first is the grinder. This is the person who wants to have more, do more, be more. She finds her sense of value and love through how much the volume of her productivity. This is the person who might spin their wheels a little bit, tend to work, I don't know, maybe past the point of diminishing returns, who can't seem to kind of let go of the doing so. This is the person who's very good individual contributor but might have a difficult time taking a jump into leadership, for example, because they're obsessed with being the get stuff done person.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yep.

[Brooke Taylor]

The second type is the hider. This is the most common type in my survey because I've had, I think about 10,000 people respond to the survey at this point. And this is the most common one. This is the person who has big dreams for their career or their life, but a fear of failure or financial insecurity stops them before they can get started. Now that might look like they're successful, you know, at face value, but deep down they have other dreams for their life and they're not able to activate on them. This person tends to have a bit of an avoidant attachment style. The third type is the pleaser. This is the person who's always wondering, are you mad at me? Is obsessed with how with their standing within workplace relationships only feel safe when everybody's approving of them or liking them. This person tends to have an anxious attachment style or maybe some social anxiety. Yeah. Then we have the seeker. This is the person we all have a friend like this. The person who sits either on the spectrum of career confused to full blown existential crisis maybe in a single day. The person who's like, I know this next cleanse or this next relationship or this next project or this next job will finally be the thing. It'll be my thing that finally rescues me from my M or my dissatisfaction. And then we have the work hard, play hard. This is what I was when I was at Google. This is the person who wants to be the life of the boardroom and the life of the party, achieves a lot, but numbs out in unhealthy ways and calls it balance, you know, at the end. And of course there's no, there's no problem with, you know, healthy escapism. It's more like, how does it make them feel at the end of the day. So those are the five types of unfulfilled achievers. And just a note on gender. Most of my research has been done with women. I think the success wound shows up in women as. So I asked this other question, which is, what is the image of the successful working person that you're maybe unconsciously comparing yourself to? So, for me, it's like the effortless entrepreneur. The person whose revenue goes up and to the right, quarter over quarter, is always invited onto the best podcasts and panels and rooms, and everyone wants to, like, celebrate her success. When I asked that of. When I asked that of women what their kind of success ideal is, the word that came up most often for women was the word balance. For men, it was the word provider. Right. Money, power, et cetera.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Power.

[Brooke Taylor]

So I. Power. And so I say that just to say most of my research centers around women, but I think the success one shows up maybe a little bit differently in men.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yeah. All right, so let's say you're a grinder asking for a friend. What do you do and what is the. Like. Tell me how that can blow up in your face. I know for the work hard, play hard. That kind of literally tells you kind of, like how it can kind of. You can hit a wall. Right. Because you could play too hard and you could end up on your back. For the grinder, is it. All of this is you're gonna end up on your back. You know, you're gonna end up, like, unwell, and you're gonna have to take time off and then really have to unpack all this. Like, what is the. What is the sort of, like, danger, I suppose, and the warning signs of getting close to that danger.

[Brooke Taylor]

Sure. So I think the. The obvious for the grinder would be the burnout or the exhaustion. But I think an underrated part of what holds the grinder back is that they're not able to get to their next level in leadership or business ownership because they're obsessed with doing the doing. Maybe they can't trust other people to do the doing because they won't do it as well as they can.

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[Brooke Taylor]

Does that sound familiar? Yes.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yes.

[Brooke Taylor]

Yeah. Yes, 100%. And I get that. Right. Like, I totally understand that and can relate to that myself, but there's that need to, you know. So that's the shadow side, right? Is like, it's going to hold me back in some way. Not just the exhaustion piece, but, like, I can't get to my next level. That's my seal. That's my ceiling in A way. And so for the grinder, their core belief. The thing that all of my grindr clients believe, you know, first and foremost is that their sense of love, control and safety comes from of, like, the volume of work that they can produce. And that you asked a question at the beginning, which is like, you know, why do I keep doing this? I think another piece of this is like our nervous systems become accustomed to operating at that level.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Right.

[Brooke Taylor]

You know, my. My husband, for example, was at McKinsey for 10 years and he just left to start a drywall business, so a construction business.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yeah.

[Brooke Taylor]

Different vibe, you know, different vibe. It took him a year to reset his nervous system to be like, I don't need to be in my inbox 24 7. My value comes from being present on the job site and leading my team, not my doing. So that was the shift that he had to make. And for a lot of my grinders, especially in a corporate setting, who want to get to their next level out of all the doing and more to the kind of like, higher picture strategy, it's like my value comes from my presence, my expertise, and trusting my being, rather than just my doing.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Wow.

[Brooke Taylor]

And that's a big mindset shift too, to have. Yeah.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Wow. Well, you kind of skipped over your

own,

you know, I don't want to. I don't know what we would call it, like, breakdown.

[So Money Podcast Intro/Outro]

Sure.

[Brooke Taylor]

Spiritual awakening. Breakdown.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Awakening. Breakdown. Break up. Can you take us to the moment where you realized, I'm not okay and I want to figure this out for myself before then you started to figure

[Brooke Taylor]

it out for everybody. Sure. I can remember it like it was yesterday and I'm talking about it a lot. And it always, I don't know, I just, I. I can remember that very clearly. So I, you know, kind of before getting to that rock bottom moment, I grew up in Silicon Valley where, you know, intellect was king and hustle and sacrifice was queen, and you needed both of those in order to be successful. It was about money, power and prestige. And the word ordinary was a dirty word. You had to be extraordinary in my cultural upbringing in order to feel validated. And I took that kind of gold star chasing mentality to college, to my job at Google. By the time I was 24, I was managing $80 million in ad spend working at YouTube with some huge brands. And I borrowed Google's brand equity as my own because I didn't know who I was without it. And I couldn't wait at parties or on dates to ask me what I did for work. So I could tell them I worked at Google, and I could feel that sense of pride and accomplishment as a result. But deep down, I felt that emptiness, that hollowness, this sort of manic ambition, this frenzied, frantic need to succeed at all costs. So I was in this work hard, play hard cycle where I would strive Monday through Friday. And every answer to every email was a measure of my competence. And every deal that I closed felt like, you know, a shot of vodka. It felt great. It felt like a relief, right? It felt like, ugh, finally. Okay, good. And it felt like, you know, every question that I answered was a referendum on my value as a person, such that by Friday, I was so exhausted and depleted. But I would drink to numb that emptiness. And I was in this kind of work hard, play hard, rat race for four years. But four years felt like 24 years. And that it all came to a screeching halt when three things happened in succession within three weeks of each other. The first is that I was sexually harassed by my direct manager at Google. But I didn't report it because I was up for promotion and I didn't want to rock the boat.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Wow.

[Brooke Taylor]

I couldn't anger or embarrass or harm the very people who could give me that sense of approval validation that I craved. Because without Google, who was I? I had no idea. So I chose to protect them because there was a bit of a system there rather than protecting myself. And I knew that at the time, this was still pre. Me too. So I didn't have all the language around, like, imbalance of power. And I. I was still kind of young, but I knew that what had happened wasn't entirely. Wasn't my fault, but I still chose not to say anything. And the second thing that happened is that it became very clear that I had a problem with alcohol. Yes. But I also had this addiction to approval, and both were really ruining my life. And then the third thing that happened is that my father was diagnosed with terminal blood cancer.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Wow.

[Brooke Taylor]

And, you know, when you get that kind of diagnosis, it causes you to question. It causes you to look at how you're living your life when somebody else's life is ending. Doesn't you know, doesn't it. It causes you to ask some questions, but the fact that all three of these things happened within three to five weeks of each other, it. I had to throw everything out the window. I'm so grateful that all of those things happened at once because I did have to get to work to find a new way of working and relating to myself and to my job. And I was looking for answers that really bridged the gap between real business acumen and real career advice, but also deep psychological understanding with a sprinkle of spiritual development. But I couldn't find an answer to that. I didn't know what this emptiness was, and I didn't know that anybody else had it. So the first thing that I did was I ended up getting sober and I went to recovery meetings. And in recovery meetings, some of the first things that you learn is that addiction, the root of addiction, it's not the alcohol. The alcohol is the solution. Your real problem is this thing that they call a spiritual malady, which is this hole, this emptiness, this void that addicts use to treat with alcohol. But I realized that I was treating this spiritual malady, this void with achievement and productivity and validation and significance and all of that. So I would leave these meetings and I'd be like, okay, you know, these are addicts. These are people with problems. But then I'd go to the my Google meetings and I'd be like, actually, these are addicts too. Yeah, and these people are addicted to the more, more, better, faster. And I think this might be the root of a lot of other political or leadership issues that we see today. Perhaps.

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[Brooke Taylor]

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[Brooke Taylor]

right.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

We, and I think sometimes, well, speaking of like politics, people don't want to give up the roles. Right. Even though we just had a conversation on this podcast about things go past their expiration date. You know, we have an addiction to the titles and the attention that we get for the roles. I'm talking also people like in high profile jobs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can totally see that. So you, you go to recovery meetings, aa also therapy.

[Brooke Taylor]

Yep, I do some therapy. I joke that this, this period of time is like the montage and Legally Blonde where she like buys the law books and she starts watching Judge Judy and she like kind of gets her stuff together. That was like my life but for three years. Some therapy, some recovery, some time off, some time with my family. A lot of reflection, research. Yeah.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

And yet you felt like there was a missing element to all of the support and advice and breakthroughs you were. You were experiencing. How did you know there was something missing? What was the voice inside of you telling you so?

[Brooke Taylor]

At Google we were so lucky to have so many different like leadership development resources like new manager training or this is how you give feedback. But it was also focused on the level of behavior. Five steps to a good one on one. Three steps for coaching. Five steps to give feedback in a better way. But behavior is the output of a system. It ignored the root cause of. Why do people not give feedback in the first place? Because they're too scared to anger or embarrass people? Or why are people bad managers in the first place? Because they don't have self awareness, Even emotional intelligence literature. It Focus. You focuses on how to cultivate empathy or self awareness or flexibility, but it doesn't teach you how to deal with the negative emotions like resentment or judgment. I was also, because I was in these rooms and getting sober, they said they were like, you only really have one problem and that problem is this void. And nobody was talking about that void, but I was learning about it three to five hours a day in these meetings. And so I became obsessed with like, well, how does this void show up in work and career? This empty cup feeling, this feeling like it's never enough, it's never enough. This disease of more that we're always chasing more. And so that's where my research centered. And then I found out kind of to, you know, put a finer point on it, that did you know that there, there's $397 billion spent a year on leadership development from companies, but it ignores the root cause of why there's poor leadership, why there's burnout, why there's perfectionism, why there's imposter syndrome in the first place. So there's all this spend, but it's not fixing the problem. What's this empty cup feeling? That's what's causing the burnout. That's what's causing the imposter syndrome, the poor management, all the rest of it. So that was my question. Yeah.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

And there's your opportunity also to go in and support all of these people at the root of it. So pivoting a little bit to talking about success wounds and how it shows up in our financial lives. So I'm learning about how this can manifest in our work lives and in our careers. The archetypes. This really has a lot to do, as you say, with self worth, our sense of self worth. This shows up a lot in financial realms. Right. Whether we're talking about negotiation, whether we're talking about going for the big job, the big promotion. Talk about some of the ways that you have seen success wounds get in the way of people, in particular women, as they try to earn more, make more, climb the ranks in their careers.

[Brooke Taylor]

I think this shows up in two ways. One is, to your point, the way that we treat negotiation raises promotions in the workplace itself and our sense of worth around that. And then I think the second way that it shows up is the way that we treat the money that we already have, the way that we invest, the way that we, you know, tend to our 401k, look at our money in or out. And so if we look at the archetypes, the Pleaser tends to be the person who doesn't want to ruffle feathers or doesn't want to show up as needy, so avoids having a conversation around raise or is all too happy to cover for a fourth maternity leave without a pay raise conversation, which I see show up a lot by the way. Love that women take parental leaves, of course, but in the U.S. because these parental thieves are so short, three to six months, six months. At the long end, it's incumbent upon the colleague, often the woman without kids, to take on the work. And so again, they're just like, sure, I'll be a team player. There's that identity again, I want to support people but without having a necessary conversation around, okay, well what is this going to mean for my performance review? What is this going to mean for a bonus at the end of the year? So that's how it could show up for a pleaser, for a hider who tends to have more of an avoidant attachment style. This is the person who never looks at their personal finance. Right. They're like, okay, I think everything's just on auto pay and auto deposit and I'm just going to like. Or not on auto pay. Yes. You know, like not looking at where things, what's coming in and what's, you know, what's coming in and what's leaving. And so these are the people who tend to be like, well, I don't know, I don't know what's being deposited or I don't know where I'm invested or that's been on my to do list, but I'm too scared to look. So those are some of the ways that our success wound shows up in our finances and hold us back.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

And then when it comes to negotiating, what about like going in for a new job, you know, and just those kinds of conversations. Let's say you are a grinder. What are some things to be self aware of in those conversations? Because I feel like you might not recognize work overload in those cases you undervalue you the amount of responsibilities that you might be thrown at that might be thrown at you.

[Brooke Taylor]

I find grinders tend to over index on the belief that my performance will speak for itself because I'm doing so much that should be enough. Right. To get that promotion or to get that raise. So like a very one to one ratio of well, I've done all of these things so they're less likely to a create awareness around the work that they're doing because again, they have the belief, well, my work should speak for Itself, which of course we all know it doesn't. And they also believe that again, the more volume equals better. So what they need to realize again is they need to come back. And this is in the book on like, what are my most essential priorities? What are the three things that I am working on this quarter? So in a time bound space, three months that are going to move the needle for the business. And again, we can, of course we can take on extra work and you know, do things, but they need to embrace the idea that done is better than perfect. And I need to be raising awareness around the work that I'm doing and I need to only be delivering on what's most essential for the business.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yeah, I had a job years and years ago, one of my first jobs. Luckily I had a great mentor. And, and to your point, I was like young and overworking, thinking that my work was gonna speak for itself. And she said, no, no, no, this is my mentor. She said, you know, everyone's just head down doing their own thing. Like, why do you think anyone's gonna notice what you're doing if you want someone to recognize your. And this was a newsroom, so I was doing stories they were airing on television. She said, here's my suggestion. The next time your story airs on TV and we had TVs all over the newsroom, do a lap around the newsroom, do a lap in front of the news director's office. Because she'll make the reference point, like she'll see you on TV and then she'll see you in front of her office and then, you know, she'll go, hey, yeah, good, good job on that story. Right. And if that's what you're looking for, right, because you need that. I know you need that. And because you're not, you're not gonna get it. And it's not because you're not, not deserving of it. It's just because people are busy and that's just not how the world works. You know, I think because especially for people coming right out of high school and college, you get graded, there's, there's marks, you know, where you know exactly where you stand all the time, but not in the real world. And so you struggle to figure out where do I stand and maybe if I just swim harder and faster and then you just end up collapsing. As you were speaking. I'm a mom now and you're a mom. And you know, I definitely think that my parents was definitely a sense of, you know, you have to earn your sort of place in our family in a way like you have to earn our love, blah blah blah. And I don't think I'm saying anything that no one has ever experienced, but there's a lot of comparison. You know, why can't you be more like this kid? And how do I make sure that I don't repeat these traumas with my own kids? Right. I think I'm doing a pretty good job of that. But it's so deep rooted that I would love to hear from you and I know you have a whole section of advice on parenting. How do you break these generational patterns around performance and approval?

[Brooke Taylor]

This is the most common question that I get asked as soon as somebody who does have kids starts to create awareness around this. So. So I don't have all the answers, but I do have two that seems to be satisfying for people. The first is that, you know, when we reward intellectual based achievements, it reinforces the part of the brain that's in charge of intellect. Now the part of the brain that's in charge of intellect is not the part, the same part of the brain that's in charge of responding to setbacks, adversity and resilience. So when we under reward the resilience that's required when we don't get our way, when we don't do well on the test, when we didn't make the team, when we didn't get into our first choice college, and on and on and on, then those kids don't have that capacity. And what I find is that in folks for whom their success wound is exceptionally strong, right? That never enough feeling they have over indexed on the intellect and under indexed on the resilience piece. So I think rewarding the meaning making that happens when we don't get our way, that sounds almost like toddlerish, but it's like, you know, all the disappointments that we have as kids and the meaning making required of that. Now kids are young and they haven't lived the long lives that you and I have to be able to be like, you can connect the dots looking backwards and like for example, I didn't, I wanted to go to Tufts University. I didn't get in. I got into Harvard of Canada, McGill University, a fantastic school, but it wasn't my first choice. But if I hadn't gotten into that, if I had gotten into Tufts, I wouldn't be married to my husband and my son wouldn't be here right now. But I can tell that to my kids one day. But I think it's the Meaning making of it. It's like, okay, you didn't make this team, but you made the JV team and look at the friendships you made as a result. Right? Right. So I think that's one thing. The second thing is that that in my research and experience with my clients, they all come to a new understanding of their worth and work dependent on their archetype. So, for example, if the Grinder is, you know, I need to prove my value from how much I do after working with me and healing the success wound and getting in touch with their intuition around this, they almost always get to a place of saying, like. Like, my value comes from my being, not my doing. For a pleaser, they usually all get to a place of, like, I can care for people without carrying them. And for a seeker, they get to a place of, like, you know, my purpose isn't one thing, it's to be myself in any given situation. Now, I share these specifics just to say, what if we could inculcate that in our kids from the beginning, you could care for people without carrying them them, or your purpose is to be you in any given situation. Or your value comes for your from your being, not your doing. So I think if we could reverse engineer it from that, that might help too.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

I love that you are enough. Yeah. You know, my daughter is. I would say she loves to help. And I want to make sure that doesn't veer into pleaser territory. Like, little things. Like when she comes up to me and she's like, mommy, look what I made you. And I want to say, say thank you, but also make sure that she feels good about it. Right. That she's doing these things because she gains pleasure from her drawings and her, you know, her projects and her helping. Like, that's the most important thing. I think adults struggle with this too. This idea that, like, if you're gonna. If you're gonna be helpful, it's okay that you get satisfaction out of that too. Right. That you don't have to be completely selfless in an endeavor. Like, it's okay if, like, in the act of helping someone, that it's gr gratifying to you as well, and if something doesn't feel good to you, you shouldn't do it.

[Brooke Taylor]

That's right. Yeah. There's so much nuance to this conversation, especially around pleasing.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Right.

[Brooke Taylor]

Because things can. I think you're handling it great with. It sounds like you're handling it great with your daughter, but I think we're pleasing veers into suffering is when it's like codependence, right, where there's anxiety around, oh, this person didn't like me. They didn't like what I produce and they therefore they don't like me or, you know, their mood is my responsibility. That level of, you know, codependence. But what we find in achievers who are pleasers, who are able to kind of fill up this empty cup on their own is that they have an abundance. They care so much. They have an abundance of empathy and intuition and attunement to others. And that can be such a superpower and a strength, can't it?

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Yes. Great. Great point. A superpower. That's a great way to frame it. Brooke Taylor, thank you so much. I love that you turned this spiritual awakening of yours into a miss to help so many people. And my goodness, 10,000 people have taken this survey. I mean, that is quite the indication of just how many people are starving for this support. Thank you so much for coming back on the show and congrats on becoming a mom.

[Brooke Taylor]

Thanks. It's been awesome. He's already 13 months and I love it. I love it.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

Thanks so much to Brooke Taylor for joining us. Her forthcoming book is called Healing the Success. Align your ambition, Find lasting career fulfillment, and end the cycle of Never enough. You can pre order now. I'll see you back here on Friday for AskFarnouche. And I hope your day is so money.

[So Money Podcast Intro/Outro]

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