← So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
1969: The Science of Attraction and Why Dating Is Still Financially Complicated
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- [00:00]
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Podcast Host (Farnoosh Torabi)
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Interviewer / Co-host
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- [02:48]
Podcast Host (Farnoosh Torabi)
So money. Episode 1969 the Science of Attraction and why Dating is Still Financially Complicated.
- [02:57]
Podcast Introduction Voice (Farnoosh Torabi)
You're listening to so Money. With award winning money Google guru, Farnoosh Torabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnoosh yourself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to so Money.
- [03:24]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
What I'm hearing is like women have tried the hustle and they're burning out and they're like, well, for what? And it's such a hard economy. I just use my beauty and my soft feminine energy and like get the lifestyle I want that way. Maybe that's a more efficient way. The problem is, so I work with women 20, 30 years later when they made the decision to be like, you know what, I'm going to give him my career. I'm going to let him handle the finances. And I have really, really terrible stories where they are without a job. They don't have the skills to go back in the market. They don't have savings. I had one who signed a very, very terrible prenup where she was left with just the furniture.
- [04:08]
Podcast Host (Farnoosh Torabi)
Welcome to Sew Money, everyone. I'm Farnoosh Tarabi. We are diving into modern dating today and not the glossy swipe right version, but the real complicated, emotionally loaded landscape so many are navigating right now. What happens when you're financially independent, maybe even out earning your partner and the old rules no longer apply? Why are some women opt out altogether saying, you know what, I'm good on my own, I don't need a relationship. While others are leaning into that rising trad wife movement as a kind of antidote to burnout and girl boss culture. And in a world of endless options, dating apps and shifting power dynamics, how do you actually find a relationship that lasts? My guest today is someone who has spent years studying exactly this. Amy Chan is the author of Unsingle how to Date Smarter and Create Love that Lasts and the best selling Breakup Boot Camp. She's dubbed the scientific Carrie Bradshaw by the observer and she's helped thousands of singles transform their love lives through her world renowned breakup boot camp and dating boot camps. And in our conversation, we're getting into everything from the psychology of attraction and why dating feels so exhausting right now to how money, ambition and identity are reshaping relationships in real time and what it really takes to build love that lasts. Let's get into it.
- [05:33]
Interviewer / Co-host
Amy Chan, welcome to so Money. It's great to see you.
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Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
I'm so excited to be here.
- [05:39]
Interviewer / Co-host
I can't wait to dive in. First of all, can I just say, I love your. The title of your book is called Un Single. And in your subtitle, you are very purposeful to write the word fun. I mean, I've had a lot of guests on this show who, you know, talk about money at the intersection of relationships and dating. Your subtitle is a fun, fun science backed dating guide that will change your love life. You're a New York Times bestselling author. I love that you bring science into this conversation.
- [06:11]
Podcast Host (Farnoosh Torabi)
We're going to talk a lot about
- [06:13]
Interviewer / Co-host
the, you know, how money plays a role in the dating scene. On the dating scene. And also this weird trad wife comeback. But first, tell us about this new book because this is not your first book. You wanted to kind of come back with some new ideas about dating. Tell us about unsingle.
- [06:35]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Yeah. So I've been running breakup bootcamps for 10 years. So I would help people through their heartbreak and then I would have clients come to me and say, like, okay, great, Amy, I'm over my ex, I'm over my divorce. Like, what do I do? How do I navigate the dating market? And so I started helping people through their dating process. And sometimes people would get so exhausted by dating because it is hard out there right now that they would just throw out dating completely. And so I help them understand and I talk about this in the book where they get stuck in the dating funnel. So we know exactly where it is so we could troubleshoot the right thing instead of just throwing out dating and saying I'm just gonna be alone forever, which is a defense mechanism.
- [07:18]
Interviewer / Co-host
Funnel, troubleshoot. What is this? Are we talking about dating as a startup, a business customer?
- [07:26]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Look, I'm a, I'm a marketing exec by, in my background and I just found that especially because I work with a lot of high achieving, having a framework so that they could understand there's five stages in the funnel. There's a, there's a certain stage where you're not converting. Let's just focus on that. And human beings, we're pretty predictable. So once we know where you're getting stuck, there's only a few patterns of what could be blocking you from moving through that funnel.
- [07:54]
Interviewer / Co-host
Where do people get most stuck? Do you find?
- [07:58]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
You know what? It's all across the board. But I would say a lot of my clients, their challenge isn't getting the dates. Their challenge is after dates one and two, moving into the third stage, which is evaluation, where you start to really start dating and getting to know someone.
- [08:14]
Interviewer / Co-host
What is your take on dating apps? You know, I'm curious how your advice would be different. You know, in a world where we weren't so addicted to the phone and we were, let's say it was, let's say it was 25 years ago, do you think the rules would still apply?
- [08:33]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Look, dating apps have changed the way we meet people, but they've also changed the way we think about people. And the endless options and the scrolling has caused us to really assemble partners like build a bear. So I'm finding, finding a lot of people are. Right now they're over icking, they're dismissing people very quickly and over the most trivial things and the things that actually don't matter in a long term partnership. So that's a problem. We're treating people like objects versus humans.
- [09:00]
Interviewer / Co-host
Okay, let's talk about money. I'm sure many of your clients as you described, ambitious, ambitious women, with that probably comes in many cases a nice paycheck, women who can support themselves financially. And so perhaps I'm going to venture to guess their number one priority isn't a man who is making a lot of money because they can support themselves. But you tell me, how important is it still, as women are dating to meet a guy and we're talking hetero here, but feel free to bring in all of the different types of relationships, how important is it to find a mate who is financially, not only just financially independent, but let's just say it, rich. Yeah.
- [09:44]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
So when I have clients who are unhappy in their careers, they're pro, they're working for a company, they don't like their job, they tend to prioritize a rich guy a lot more than the ones who are building a startup. And they're loving what they do. It's like their baby. Those women who are doing really well and successful and maybe not even the paycheck, but they're really passionate about what they're doing and getting fulfillment. Having someone who's rich just doesn't cut it. It's like, sure, you can have money, but I need a lot more than that. I need someone who's emotionally supportive, who can take care of my heart. And so it is changing in that way.
- [10:24]
Interviewer / Co-host
And so how does that change the dating landscape? Because as this mindset shift is happening with women, is it also happening with men? Because what are men looking for? Are men Thinking I want to enter a relationship and not make it. So providing isn't something that is expected of me.
- [10:45]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
So for the clients that are not Gen Z clients, but anyone else, they still are social in a way where there is this idea that to be a man is to have money and be successful and provide. And so even if they know that a woman's like, hey, you know what? I'm okay. We. You don't need to make more money. It's totally fine. There's still what I'm finding with my clients, this feeling of like, I'm not there yet. I can't commit. I can't even think about having a family until I have a solid foundation of a net worth. So they're delaying their commitment if they're not hitting some number that they have in their head that they deem as success.
- [11:26]
Podcast Host (Farnoosh Torabi)
So that sounds problematic.
- [11:28]
Interviewer / Co-host
Yeah, to me.
- [11:29]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Yeah.
- [11:29]
Interviewer / Co-host
Let's talk about some of the friction that you're seeing as a result of a little bit of this disconnect or delay, as in this case, you know, just because I've also done some research on this, although it's been a minute, my last book, one of my last books, you know, came out in 2014, looking at female breadwinners, mostly in a marriage setting. But, you know, you are very tuned into the dating scene. I want to learn as much from you about women who are financially independent dating. How can they become unsingle as they're navigating and trying to find a partner? What are the walls they're hitting up against? You know, because I think there are a lot of kind of stereotypes about the women who are financially ambitious and financially independent that they don't, quote, unquote, need a man. They, quote, unquote, wear the pants. They, quote, unquote, don't need someone to take care of them. And then, you know, date number one doesn't turn into date number two. Yeah, tell me, but tell me what you're seeing and hearing.
- [12:34]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
So what I'm seeing a lot is it's. It's amazing time for women because they don't need a man. Right. So they're choosing a man. So a man has to be complimentary to their life, otherwise I don't need you for survival. Now what's happening is because the dating scene can be so exhausting out there, women are being like, well, I have a full life. Why? I'm just gonna protect my peace. And that is totally fine if it really comes from a place of, like, I'm really just happy with where I'm at. But a lot of the times it's coming out as a defense mechanism and they don't even know it. So they walk around saying like, hey, I don't need a man. I'm totally fine. I got my ladies, I got my brunches. But they have just decided that the risk of being hurt in love is just not worth it anymore. And so I think that is problematic because it's actually not coming from a genuine place.
- [13:25]
Interviewer / Co-host
So what I'm hearing is like, get vulnerable. It's okay to be vulnerable.
- [13:31]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Yeah, and it's okay too. I think there's, I think there's this narrative that if you are a successful, empowered woman, it's almost embarrassing to want a boyfriend or a relationship or marriage. And it's not, it doesn't take away how powerful and confident you are because you want that as well. So I think that is something women need to if they feel shame around wanting it. Because in any goal in life, you need to want the thing and desire it first. Before you go, how do I close the gap between where I am now and where I want to be? But if you just deny this desire altogether because you find it embarrassing or shameful, how are you going to get there?
- [14:14]
Interviewer / Co-host
Yeah, where do you find these men who are down for women who are financially independent and financially powerful? Where do they hang out?
- [14:25]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
They're definitely the ones that come to the retreat. There's like usually a 40% split of men and women. And I have to say, like the men who come to the retreats, typically within a year end up in a relationship because they're already there. They're already wanting to learn about relationships skills. They've had failed relationships in the past. They don't want to repeat it. So they're doing the work to build the muscle of developing these skills that will make them better in relationships. I think you can also find them like, I think online dating.
- [14:57]
Interviewer / Co-host
It's, I guess, what are the signs, what are the signs of these guys? Because I think sometimes they confront as very progressive but these values and these sort of, you know, we're very primal beings, you know, and, and we are very much conditioned, you know, to expect certain things from our genders. And so I guess, you know, what are the signs that this is going to be a good match? Because this person understands that there's no threat in a woman who is self sufficient and knows what she wants and is financially capable and independent.
- [15:43]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Yeah, I would say that it takes, I talk about in the book the final. There's the evaluation stage, which is after a couple dates. This is the stage before you decide if you want to increase your commitment. And there's no rushing through this evaluation stage. This is when you look through the experiences you have with each other to see if their values really line up with what they say, Right? So if they're like, yeah, I'm all about, like, equality and generosity, then you get to see, like, when you guys go on your first trip together, are they nickeling and diming? Are they, you know, not tipping the service staff? Like, you pick up these little signs when you talk about your career. Are they actually leaning in and curious and interested, or is there a little thing like, are they kind of putting you down a little bit, or do they then try to impress you with all of their accomplishments? It requires a level of being intuitive to pick up these signals from people, which is, I think, helpful. Not just like, are they gonna be a great partner in terms of honoring your career? But do they have narcissistic or selfish tendencies? These are all things that we have to get better at, and it's a skill.
- [16:56]
Interviewer / Co-host
All right, shifting gears, we. We promised this. We're gonna talk about trad wives. For folks who are unfamiliar with this. It's an abbreviation for the traditional wife. And I mean, really, this idea of being basically subservient to your man in. In all the ways, including allowing your husband to manage all of the financial dealings in your household. And this is being glamorized to some extent online. I think some of it is parody, but I wanted to understand first why you think this is becoming culturally not. I don't wanna say relevant, but it's like, kind of making a cultural. It's finding a place in our cult again, or I should say, for maybe for the first time online. What do you think of it? What do you make of it?
- [17:45]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Well, part of it. There's, like, some political scent to it, right? Like, we know some of these are influencers that are being paid. But there's another part where women. What I'm hearing is, like, women have tried the Hustle, and they're burning out. And they're like, well, for what? And it's such a hard economy. Why don't I just use my beauty and my soft, feminine energy and, like, get the lifestyle I want that way? Maybe that's a more efficient way. The problem is, so I work with women 20, 30 years later when they made the decision to be like, you know what? I'm gonna give him my career. I'm gonna Let him handle the finances. And I have really, really terrible stories where they are without a job. They don't have the skills to go back in the market. They don't have savings. I had one who signed a very, very terrible prenup where left with just the furniture and yeah, the furniture and the. The husband who cheated had an affair with his assistant who was 30 years younger, moved the assistant into their house, kicked the wife out and she's like, amy, do I sell the furniture on Marketplace and meet them outside the house? I'm like, absolutely not. So, yeah, it is glamorous in the very beginning and I'm sure the guy is promising a lot of great things, but you are transacting on beauty and youth and there's a part where that is no longer the and you are easily disposable. And I've seen it time and time again.
- [19:14]
Podcast Host (Farnoosh Torabi)
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- [22:55]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
We're lost. It feels like we're going round in circles. I'm gonna ask that man for directions. Hi there. We're trying to get to the state fairgrounds.
- [23:04]
T-Mobile Advertisement Voice
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- [23:11]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
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- [23:13]
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- [23:25]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Actually, can you pull up the way
- [23:26]
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- [23:55]
Interviewer / Co-host
and not to mention a lot of the showcasing of this online. You remember like if someone's make if, if, if a quote unquote trad wife has made a platform out of this on TikTok or Instagram like it's a business for this person and this person presumably is making money and actually is not a trad wife like has created essentially like a sitcom out of this. You know it's like I say it's like you're watching the Simpsons like you're watching like a show like this is not real life and then people go and try to emulate this and then suffer the consequences with this person doesn't have the consequences. You brought up a really important topic I want to shift gears to which is prenups and just you know how couples should think about marriage. You know we're talking about dating. Dating but shifting to the marriage and you know you treating dating like a business or sort of like a you know, talk about funnel and all that but, but marriage is a contract. It is, you know and I think it's important to treat it like a contract really in all of those, in all the ways. Talk about some of the ways that you recommend couples protect themselves. That prenup I feel like a judge would have thrown that out had they had she really contested it.
- [25:10]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
She. Yeah.
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Interviewer / Co-host
You know that doesn't seem like, like it would have held up in a courtroom. But tell us why it's so important these days especially it's not just for rich people.
- [25:20]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Yeah, for sure. And I, I so I am very big believer of prenups. I. I'm not married but I have a cohab agreement with my partner.
- [25:28]
Interviewer / Co-host
Okay.
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Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
And it is really just when you are getting along to discuss such a hard topic and this is when you want to do it right and it's not just one conversation, it's multiple conversations and you have to expect that it probably will be uncomfort and I think a lot of people avoid it because there's Anxiety about talking about money or it seemed unromantic. And. And so they just don't do it because they take the anxiety as a signal to stop. But it's extremely important because if you don't decide now, then the court is going to decide. Or if you are, you know, your survival mechanisms are on and you're in fight or flight mode, then you're dealing with it then, and that is just a nightmare situation. Yeah.
- [26:11]
Interviewer / Co-host
Well, tell me about your Cohab agreement. I think that's interesting. We don't talk enough about that on the show, but more and more couples are not getting married. They're choosing to live together, talk about, like, what kinds of things are in there, and then how do you legitimize it? Like, do you have to go. No, no. Like, how do you formalize something like that?
- [26:33]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Yeah. So for us, we've been together six and a half years, and in the very beginning, it was a very tense conversation. It's like, my boyfriend has a startup that he's been working on. I'm a bit more stable. And so we first started talking about that and, like, we. We switched right in the very beginning, he was paying for everything. And then the. And then, like, the pandemic hit. I had nothing. And then he was supporting me, and then his startup, like, was struggling, and then I was, you know, supporting more. So it's been up and down, but. But it was causing a lot of tension for me. And so what we did was we actually had a therapist, a third party, help us walk through it, because we would get so tense that the conversation would go nowhere. And having a therapist help us was amazing. We just walked through some of the tension. I understood where some of my anxiety was coming from, which was old and historical. And then we were able to, like, as just two people, like, come together and be like, okay, the cats. The cats were yours. You've had them. But I. I love them. But who would get the cats if we were to end things right? And we had to go through each one of these and come to a place where it felt fair and generous. So we got a notary to make it official. And I feel like the relationship changed afterwards.
- [27:58]
Interviewer / Co-host
In what way?
- [28:00]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
I personally just felt safer.
- [28:03]
Interviewer / Co-host
Yeah, safer in. In what way?
- [28:07]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
I feel like, because my partner takes big swings, right? Like, so he has multiple projects where it's gonna be either a lot or it's gonna be nothing. And so for me, as someone who's been more stable and having to support here and there, like, well, what happens if we were to break up, and then you have your big payday. After we break up, what happens? So we actually created a clause in there that would protect me. If we were to break up, would
- [28:37]
Interviewer / Co-host
it be easier to be married?
- [28:41]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Maybe we just have it like, we will get married and we'll have to do the whole thing over again with a prenup. Yeah, but we're like, until then, right? We might as well create this for now.
- [28:51]
Interviewer / Co-host
Yeah. All right, so let's talk about some dating stuff. Even though it doesn't really have anything to do with money, but I'm just so curious because while I have you, it would be such a missed opportunity. The number one trait that predicts relationship success according to science. What is that?
- [29:08]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
It's conscientiousness. So conscientiousness is if someone follows through on their word, if they're reliable, if they're honest. And then the number one trait that it predicts a relationship partner that might not be, as, you know, healthy is high neuroticism.
- [29:30]
Interviewer / Co-host
Okay, so give me an example of high neuroticism, because that can be relative, right?
- [29:36]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So also, we're all. We're on a spectrum, right? We all have a level of neuroticism, but, like, just like, we all have a level of narcissism. Right, right, right. But if you're on, like, the extreme side of the spectrum, it's extremely controlling, extremely anxious, always looks at the worst case scenario, and very negative. Okay.
- [29:57]
Interviewer / Co-host
Okay.
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Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
People who are high. High in eroticism tend to have a lot of problems in their relationships. Now, I'm not saying it's impossible, but it becomes harder.
- [30:08]
Interviewer / Co-host
All right.
- [30:09]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Yeah.
- [30:11]
Interviewer / Co-host
You have here the psychology. The psychology of magnetism is something that you have explored. What makes someone instantly more attractive.
- [30:21]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
You know, it's so interesting on a first date when I'll have a client who's like, oh, my gosh, I went on this date and it was so amazing. And they, like, didn't think so. And they keep having this experience. And so I encourage them to look at the dynamic ratio of how much they're talking versus the other person. So when you are self disclosing, you get dopamine. Dopamine makes you want more of the thing. So if you're on a date and you are, you know, revealing all the things about yourself, and you're talking 90% of the time, you're gonna leave the date thinking it was great. The other person will be like, oh, that was exhausting. So one of the number one things you could do is just increase your curiosity and ask questions to allow the other person to self disclose, close. And this is across the board. It's friendships, romantic relationships, and even business partnerships.
- [31:18]
Interviewer / Co-host
Interviews, I hear, too. Although, yeah, I. I've heard this and I've heard that during interviews. Now, this could go. I guess this could go either way, but if the person interviewing you does a lot of the talking, it's gone really well.
- [31:34]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Yeah, I've heard that too.
- [31:35]
Interviewer / Co-host
I mean, you would want them to ask you a lot of questions and you get to talk. But if they're talking a lot, it may mean that they like you and they're like. Like they. Then maybe they walk away thinking, that was a great interview because. Yeah, your point. To your point, there's this psychology of magnetism going on. I'm reading here that you found out a boyfriend cheated through a psychic. How? Do you really. Do you believe in.
- [32:01]
Podcast Host (Farnoosh Torabi)
In that.
- [32:01]
Interviewer / Co-host
Do you believe in psychic sort of work and how much of that plays a role in your relationship consulting? Yeah.
- [32:09]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
You know, it's funny how, like, I'm so into the science, but I still have a psychic on call. I saw a lot of psychics when I was constantly heartbroken. And it was just my way of feeling like there has to be some sense in what I'm going through. If a psychic told me something that was reassuring, I'm like, okay, I'm good. But, yeah, this was like 10 years ago. I was in a relationship and I went to psychic because I was laid off from my job. So I wanted to find out, like, hey, what's gonna happen with my career? And before I sat, she's like, the guy you're with, he's not for you. There's another woman. She's from his past. I'm like, no, no, no, no. Like my boyfriend, I'm the first girlfriend he's ever had. Like, I don't want to talk about this. And she's just kept pushing it over and over, and she's like, okay, well, if you don't believe me, there's a problem with his kidney. And if he doesn't get it fixed, like, you will be a widow by age 39. I'm like, what? Anyway, yeah, I still didn't believe it. Talked about my career and. And a few days later, I brought up the kidney thing. And he's like, what do you. How do you know about that? And things start. I'm like, wait, what? And I'm like, hey, did you date. Have a girlfriend before me? And he's like, he just started getting weird. I started asking more questions and then.
- [33:20]
Interviewer / Co-host
What is your psychic's name? Can we.
- [33:22]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
I know.
- [33:22]
Podcast Host (Farnoosh Torabi)
You know what? I can't find her.
- [33:24]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
She was like in a. Her office looked like a closet. And I don't know where she was. She vanished. Amy.
- [33:32]
Interviewer / Co-host
That is the craziest story. It's wild. She was like, not a real person. She was like. She was a spirit.
- [33:41]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Yeah.
- [33:42]
Interviewer / Co-host
Oh, my gosh.
- [33:44]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Wild.
- [33:44]
Interviewer / Co-host
Whoa. Okay, I'm getting more than I bargained for today. Okay, you have here that a majority of relationships fail at the 18 month mark. That feels like a long time to invest in a relationship and then it fails. Yeah, no, I wanted to bring this back to money.
- [34:04]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Did you.
- [34:05]
Interviewer / Co-host
Did you catch what I did there? I said investment. But why 18 months? And by then you might have moved in together. Because usually you move in after what, a year?
- [34:15]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Yep. Yeah. So there's no coincidence that. You know, the honeymoon stage. We think that when we're in this honeymoon stage and feeling butterflies, it's cause like we met the one. Right. I'm sorry. It's not that romantic. It's really chemical. Like in the very beginning, you're flooded with dopamine. Dopamine is about the future. You don't know, like, are you going to see each other next weekend? Are you going on that trip? Everything is about possibility. This stage lasts between 12 months to 18 months and then there's an actual shift on a neurobiological level. So after that time, things stable, stabilize. And what happens is you start experiencing the here and now chemicals, which is like oxytocin. This suppresses dopamine.
- [34:59]
T-Mobile Advertisement Voice
Me.
- [35:00]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
So while you feel very peaceful and stable, you're not wondering, hey, are we seeing each other on the weekend? You already have a routine together. What happens is people think that they're no longer in love. And I remember I had a boyfriend, I bought us an apartment. And then he tells me one day, I love you, but I'm not in love with you. And that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's this under lack of understanding that this is a natural evolution in the relationship. And it doesn't mean something is wrong. It just means that Mother Nature is no longer going to do the work for you anymore. And then you need to actually put in the work to create novelty, to continue doing things that ignite passion for the relationship, to sustain.
- [35:43]
Interviewer / Co-host
Amy, when did you. I'm already. I'm. I'm learning. You've had many relationships. Multiple, which is good. You need the like I. I would hope so, because now you are consulting people. But at what point did you realize, I want to help people, I want to help people? I've hopefully. I would assume it started with helping and healing yourself, but what was the kind of pivot point for you?
- [36:09]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
So I started writing about relationships. I was a dating columnist. I started 20 years ago after that French boyfriend broke up with me after I bought us the apartment, just because I couldn't figure out. So my first blog was like, what is love? Is it just about a feeling or is it about commitment? And so that started my career in researching relationships just because I kept being heartbroken. And then after the breakup from the psychic, I spiraled. Like, I had suicidal thoughts. Like, it was so dark for me. And when I finally came out of that, I was like, there was nothing for me. Like, I would go to a yoga retreat, but I would come back and I would have the same darkness and the same patterns. So I was like, I need to create what didn't exist for me, which was a place you could go to a retreat. And there's doctors and. And psychologists there that understand the type of grief that comes from breakup. And that's how I created breakup boot camp 10 years ago.
- [37:08]
Interviewer / Co-host
Wow. So, yeah. And so that's incredible.
- [37:13]
Podcast Host (Farnoosh Torabi)
And how.
- [37:14]
Interviewer / Co-host
How did you end up in the relationship that you are in today?
- [37:18]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
We actually. I was living in New York. And the funny thing is I had a friend who's like a super connector. And I was like, hey, can you set me up with someone? And he's like, oh, my gosh, I know the best person. He's like a really good guy, funny, smart. Shows me this guy's picture, and it's this guy. He's got, like, brown hair, and he's like, leaning on a chair with like half a grin. And I just, in my head, I was like, oh, he looks like a cocky finance bro. And so I was like, hey, do you have anyone else? And my friend was like, just took his phone. He never set me up again. And a year later, I matched with this guy, and we're talking, and it shared back then, like, you had a mutual friend. So I text my friend Michelle. I'm like, hey, do you know this guy named Paul? And he calls me right away. He's like, amy, I tried to set you up with him, and you said, no, my gosh. Yeah. And it turns out he's not a finance bro. And that photo was taken after he face planted on the bunny hill while learning how to ski.
- [38:10]
Interviewer / Co-host
So it's like gosh, yeah, yeah. The universe was trying to make it work. I mean how much do you believe in fate and how much do you believe in like I feel like it's you need all the things. You need a friend to make a recommendation. You need a nap. You need some fate. You need a psychic. Like I've learned a lot. You need some science. Like you need all the help. You need a retreat. I mean, yeah, yeah.
- [38:34]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
I mean I don't really believe in fate. I look at that as I was announcing to the world that I was ready for a relationship but then I was like, mm, cocky finest like I just made a snap judgment. Right? Just like a lot of my clients who judge a guy cause they're not tall enough and I really, I did a lot of self work to get to a point where I'm like I'm not gonna judge people. I'm gonna be ok, open. And I think it was because of that where I could see someone and not just judge him as like ooh, are you gonna be my future baby daddy? Like I was just really present. Even when I went on the date. I did things really differently. And I talk about the journey in the book. I, I did my own dating experiment on myself to change my chemistry compass who I was drawn to so I could be drawn to the good guys. It was a lot but and I don't think that was fate. I think that was just, just you know, failing and getting back up and trying new things.
- [39:29]
Interviewer / Co-host
Amy Chan, this has been fun as you promised and science backed and all of the things. I really appreciate you coming on and being honest and very helpful. Thank you so much. Your book is called Unsingle A fun science backed dating guide that will change your love life.
- [39:47]
Amy Chan (Guest, Author and Relationship Expert)
Thanks so much for having me.
- [39:52]
Podcast Host (Farnoosh Torabi)
Thanks so much to Amy Chan for joining us. Her book is Unsingle how to date smarter and create love that lasts. Thanks for tuning in and I hope your day is so money.
- [40:17]
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