← So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
1972: The Price of Ambition: Inside Vogue, Power, and Reinvention with Caroline Palmer
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- [00:00]
Farnoosh Torabi
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- [02:27]
Farnoosh Torabi
so Money Episode 1972 the Price of Ambition Inside Vogue, Power and Reinvention with Caroline Palmer.
- [02:36]
Farnoosh Torabi (Podcast Intro)
You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Torabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnoosh yourself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to so Money.
- [03:03]
Caroline Palmer
I would get up at 4:15 every morning seven days a week for two years and I wrote from 4:45 to 7:45 and my first child gets up at 7:45 and then I was done. I couldn't do any whatever the like after I'm like looking for somebody's trumpet or like croc or like making lunch or screaming at people like I can't return to whatever that writing space is. So I was done writing every day by 7:45 and that was how I did it. And I don't know who that person is now because I cannot find her. She is. She has left the building. She has completely left the building.
- [03:43]
Farnoosh Torabi
Welcome to so Money everybody. I'm sitting down with Caroline Palmer today. She's a former Vogue editor and author of the buzzworthy novel Workhorse. Drawing from her years inside the high gloss world of fashion publishing, Caroline takes us bey the cliches of the Devil Wears Prada to reveal a more complicated and sometimes darker story about ambition, identity and the quiet trade offs women make to get ahead. We also talk about the mythology of glamorous careers versus the reality behind the scenes, the difference between workhorses and show horses, and why Caroline set out to write a female protagonist who doesn't always make the right choices and doesn't apologize for it on a personal level. Caroline also opens up about her career pivot during the pandemic, the moment she walked away from a high powered job, and how writing this book helped her rebuild confidence and redefine success in midlife. Keep listening to find out what it was really like working inside Vogue during a transformative era, the financial realities of starting out in New York on a $25,000 salary, and her negotiation story that led to a major salary leap and and what we can learn from it. Take a listen. Caroline Palmer, welcome to so Money.
- [05:01]
Caroline Palmer
Thank you. I'm so delighted to be here.
- [05:03]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
First, can we talk about how I'm excited for Devil Wears Prada, too. And your book, Workhorse Chronicles, it's fiction, but based in your. Based on your experience working actually at Vogue. And I want to just start with that. And when you see these. These portrayals of working in the fashion industry at Vogue, whether it's Devil Wears Prada or other fictionalized things, how do you feel about it? Do you feel like it's fair? Do you feel like all this. I don't say hate, but all this kind of parodying of it is justified?
- [05:41]
Caroline Palmer
I think, actually, I think the movies make it look like so many parts of it make it look really glamorous, which it was. Was at that time. Like, I don't have a. I had a great experience. Did I have a perfect experience? Did I have experience? But all in all, and taking the good with the bad, when you're in your 20s, it's a great job if you're. If you're. If that kind of thing sort of appeals to you. So I actually think when you look at what are the movies, like, how to Lose a guy in 10 days, 13 going on 30. Devil Wears Prada, like, they. They oversimplify it for sure, but I think they have done a nice job of certain parts of it looking as exciting and as glamorous and as full of access that it really was at the time. I can't speak for now, but I'm not usually offended by them. I think they do what they're supposed to do, which is portray this fantasy world that is selling. A fantasy world.
- [06:31]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Yeah. Let's get into work. Horrors. This book based on your work, life at Vogue and your work in fashion magazines and what people might mistakenly say, oh, it's just another Devil Wears Prada.
- [06:47]
Caroline Palmer
I welcome it to sell numbers. Oh, it's God.
- [06:52]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
But how would you say it really differentiates and makes its own mark on the shelf on the bookshelf.
- [06:57]
Caroline Palmer
I think the way I think about it is the. The milieu is the same, which is obviously, everything in the book is stuff I have seen or stuff I've been aware of, and it draws on some of that stuff. But the plot is wholly invented. And quite frankly, it is in that early 2000s New York, which was a very exciting time, at least for me, setting. But the plot really isn't about, like, a young girl working at a magazine. There's no editor in chief at all in the book. It's more about the relationships between the employees and also a little bit about, I guess, both, like, the seduction and sort of the price of ambition, especially when you are in a very small bubble, I guess, is a way I might explain it.
- [07:43]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
What is the price of ambition? Or what was the price of ambition during this era? I guess you were also writing Workhorse from the years of. The setting is Post not like it's 2001.
- [07:57]
Caroline Palmer
It's post 9 11, 2001 to about 2008.
- [08:01]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
So right before the financial crash and
- [08:04]
Caroline Palmer
as the Internet was starting to make its presence more known in publishing, so I worked at Vogue twice. One time I was on the editorial side, fully in the culture department. But then the second time I went back for seven years, it was to launch the inaugural vogue.com. so it was like this still unfigured out and quite frankly, mostly failed attempt to figure out, like, how to migrate these things online and have both properties complimenting each other and working together ends right at the start of the industry, kind of becoming a very different industry. So it's definitely nostalgic in that sense to work at these places. Looks nothing like it did 15 years ago.
- [08:48]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
No, absolutely, we know. Yeah, yeah. The review in the New York Times. Congratulations. The writer talks about how your plot is less about publishing than it is about struggle to climb social rank. Why is that something that you wanted to focus on given that this is like, maybe also like a career book to some people?
- [09:07]
Caroline Palmer
Yeah, I think a couple things, like the book is based in Amelia that is very familiar to me. I obviously worked in fashion magazines. I worked at Amazon Fashion, always in New York. But the plot and the characters and are. Are not just fabrications, which they fully are. But it's a pretty. What's funny is people will pick it up and be like, I think I feel like I know what this is going to be. And they'll read the first, like, hundred pages because it's a long book. And they'll read the first hundred pages and be like, okay. And then the book actually is a little bit dark. And I don't think people are initially expecting that. And it's not dark about the magazine industry so much as. And I'll say this as quickly as possible, there was some point during the pandemic, I was watching a bunch of stuff I had missed, like Homeland and the Queen's Gambit and that Nurse Jackie. Anyway, I just kept seeing any time like, a female character was either bad or, like, outspoken or we were always giving her a big handicap to make sure, like, we could forgive her or like her or stick with her. So in Homeland, when she goes and leaves her baby to go back to work, we're like, but don't. But she's mentally ill and off her medicine, and we're all like, oh. And then I watch narcos, right? And when the guys listen, I'm gonna have to kill everyone in this village to be the head of the cartel. Nobody's watching that being like, I don't know, Is he likable? Is he an unlikable narrator? Like, we just. I'm not even. Who subscribes to all this gender stuff and gets into it that much, but it was really jumping out at me for this period of time. I was like, we're always giving women, like, a good reason. And I was like, what if you had a character that, like, comes is not running from the law or experiencing mental illness or hiding a big secret or escaping a troubled childhood, and she just made some bad choices and maybe was driven by some less than, like, lovely impulses? Like how you never hear about an unlikable narrator when men are writing a novel, right? Like, it's just female. It's always just female protagonists. So I was like, could you write one that you identify with and you feel like some of her experience or some of her mental dialogue has been your own mental dialogue? But then she proceeds to make a series of decisions and series of choices that, like, make it harder and harder to stay on her side? And, like, when do you lose her?
- [11:38]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Yeah.
- [11:39]
Caroline Palmer
So that was the setup for the book is how. And quite frankly, like, when you watch the Devil Wears Prada, like, bringing it back around, there's no point in that movie from the first second where you're like, I wonder if Anne Hathaway is the good guy. You always know that phone is going in the fountain from the first minute. She never does anything bad. She never. She never. Like, she's always making the right choices. And I guess I. I wanted to not have that character. So that was my. My main character's named Chlo, and that is. I also don't know that woman. I. I was with someone the other day. She was like, I don't like having lunch with someone who doesn't like to bring a little bit of gossip. And I was like, oh, my God, neither do I. And I just feel like women are always so good and always so perfect. Like, in the big picture, they've always made that. And I was like, I don't. I need my ladies to, like, have a little edge. And so I wanted a character that was, like, a little. Had a little bit of that edge, too.
- [12:39]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
We won't give away what that Edge is necessarily in this conversation. But what is it that Chlo is really seeking in the book? Really? What is the challenge? What is the thing that you're trying to help her overcome? Throughout the.
- [12:55]
Caroline Palmer
I think that she has seen a world that is better than the world she's coming from. And she doesn't. She didn't know who she was going in. But to lose it would be losing this sense of an identity that she's building. So I think she. A lot of it is ambition. A lot of it is wanting to fit in. A lot of it is, like, wanting to blend. And I think that we've. I think that we've all had that job or that relationship in which we're like, this is a life or death situation, you know, like making this relationship work or not getting fired from this job. And then you do lose the relationship or you do get fired and you're like, wait, once you break the spell and you, like, are on the street with your potted plant in a box. I've certainly had those jobs where it just felt so stressful. And then you don't have the job anymore and suddenly you're like, what was. Like, where was my headspace? So I think part of that is it too, like, she's been working so hard on building an identity that is very inauthentic and she doesn't want to lose it and becomes more and more desperate not to lose it.
- [14:02]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Starting with this title of workhorse. Is that something that you wanted to portray as a negative or something to aspire to or something that has flaws? And if there are flaws, what are they?
- [14:14]
Caroline Palmer
I don't know. I think it was just the reality. So it was a term. I mean, it's a term that's used. But it was a term that was used in magazines. We would jokingly be like, workhorses and show horses or workhorses and show ponies. I was never. And also, there was no. It's like a cast system. Like, there was no historical record of anyone becoming, like, going from workhorse to show horse. And honestly, like you say about the
- [14:38]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
current editor in chief of Vogue, now I feel like she's a workhorse turned show horse or still a workhorse given a show horse title. The person who is succeeding on a
- [14:48]
Caroline Palmer
wintour, what I would say about her is that I know her well and she is such a great choice for this position because she's got this very interesting upbringing, this very Vogue worthy pedigree. But she also, to your point, like, she shows up, she does the work. She is thoughtful about the work. She is, like, always responding. Like, I worked with Chloe for years and years, and she's always doing the work, not missing the deadlines. So I'm not surprised that she brings both those skill sets to this particular job, which I think is really just a very interesting era, obviously, for that magazine. And when they made the announcement, I was like, wow, that's like a perfect person. Because she's not gonna follow exactly in Anna's footsteps, but she's got so many great ingredients that she's going to be. She's gonna be able to do something that, like, keeps the level. But I think that she's going to be able to put a very distinct imprint on it. That's hers. That's going to be very different.
- [15:55]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
And it sounds like she has been,
- [15:56]
Caroline Palmer
what a cool job. She's like, got a coolest job now.
- [15:59]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
It just because what you were saying earlier, there's no world where you become. Where your workhorse and then you become the show horse. Or maybe in other words, like the editor in chief, the person who is like, the face of the company, the brand. And I wonder if that was more of an. Of a phenomenon tied to the era that you worked in magazines. Is it possible today to reverse that? I feel like that's really dis. Like disenchanting. Like, I'm. I work hard. I want to feel like there's some sort of reward for that. But what's your take?
- [16:29]
Caroline Palmer
There's. Not. To be clear, it's not that there's not a reward for it. Right. Like, plenty of workhorses get promoted to the top of the. But it's not so much about the reward at the end, which, you know, is applied evenly. It's things like someone said to me, as I've thought of it anyway, it's that show horses have things.
- [16:52]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Yeah.
- [16:52]
Caroline Palmer
And workhorses strive to acquire things. So, like, I did not throw the sterling silver in the dishwasher growing up. We put soaked at the bin and we polished it. We barely used it. We didn't inherit property or heirloom jewelry or. And that kind of is. You have to think of that even past the material like that. We're talking about, like, institutional generational versus a newer model. So both can end up at the same destinations. It's just like a very different approach to the world and being in the world.
- [17:27]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
You wrote this book during the pandemic. We actually met serendipitously on vacation. Like, we didn't know each other.
- [17:34]
Caroline Palmer
Our families no, we were in a pool.
- [17:36]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Swimming together in a pool. And at the time you are saying, I'm finishing up a book. And then fast forward to now you're on the podcast talking about the book, but talk about three kids. And I believe right before the pandemic and even during the pandemic a little bit, you were still at Vogue. Was that. Am I right about that?
- [17:54]
Caroline Palmer
So I went from Vogue, proper grown up Vogue to Amazon Fashion, okay. For about five years. And then I was the CMO of a tech, like a startup, well funded startup in the sort of fashion space. And that's what I was doing halfway through the pandemic. But then it just got to the point where my kids were like three and five and six or something and it just. It wasn't working. And so I actually left my job and probably did nothing for that first year because of everything. And then I would say a year in or so I was like, all right, you've always said you wanted to write a book. You never had the time. Like, you have the time now. It could end tomorrow. Just do it. And it's. I. That I made it sound really easy. I was like, just do it. But it was. It was hard. In fact, what's striking me about it now is I'm starting to write another one and it is like, not. I have not found like the momentum I had before and it feels very stressful and it reminds me like of how hard the whole process actually was. Wow.
- [19:01]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
How did you work your way through it? What were your. Did you have a process? Would you go? I would actually leave the house and go. Room at the George, which is a hotel, and really get away from it because I just felt like sometimes changing location, not like going to a coffee shop, but actually leaving for 24 hours could help. It wasn't always the most productive, but I think sometimes you're writing the book in your head, right? It's a gestation. You don't have to always be writing on your laptop to be working on your book.
- [19:33]
Caroline Palmer
No. God. It's all you're doing, right? Yeah. No. So the Georgia is genius. And I will be taking it and doing it. I did. I was on the board. I'm on a board at the University of Delaware. And one time I did leave really early for the board meeting so I could check into the hotel early. And I had a full day and night and day in a hotel. And I was like, oh, my God, why don't I do this? More changing locations. Absolutely. No. My system was. And this is the one I'm having like a really hard time recapturing. I would get up at 4:15 every morning seven days a week for two years. And I wrote from 4:45 to 7:45. And my first child gets up at 7:45. And then I was done. I couldn't do any whatever the, like after I'm like looking for somebody's trumpet or like croc or like making lunch or screaming at people like I can't return to whatever that writing space is. So I was done writing every day by 7:45. And that was how I did it. And I don't know who that person is now because I cannot find her. She is, she has left the building. She has completely left the building. She was pretty great. But yeah. So I'm just trying to figure all of that out again.
- [20:47]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
If you could go back and give your 20 something self some career advice, what would it be? I'm sure you've been asked this question often, but maybe let's spin it a little bit. If you are starting out your career now at 20 something in magazines, which is completely different than of course what it was even just five years ago, let alone 20 years ago, what would be your number one tip for the person who really does want to grow in the industry? They're not looking at this as like a job hopping thing. Of course, maybe within the industry they'll have different jobs, but they love magazines or they love journalism, they love writing, they love fashion.
- [21:28]
Caroline Palmer
I don't know, I'm like, I would really give myself advice around dating, but just kidding because any or just. But from a work perspective, I think I was pretty good in the sense that I've always been someone who needed to have a job. So I always took jobs very seriously and I'm grateful for that. If having a job was like not a requirement or I had a. I might have approached it differently but. And I have not been in a workplace for six years. Although I hear it's, it's different now like this. Like sometimes I'm like, I really don't want to hear the term work life balance until you turn 40. Do you know what I mean? I'm like enough. Like I just, I showed up early, I stayed late, I certainly made mistakes. I was always sniffing around to be helpful, right? But also there's that balance, right? Like how are you sniffing around to be helpful without being annoying? But like any time that there was an extra coffee to go get or someone needed somebody on a Saturday, like I was always, I didn't have kids. I wasn't in a relationship. I was in my 20s. Life was so fun all the time. So I said yes to everything. And that's the it sounds obvious, but that is I said yes to absolutely everything. And also you have to remember what you don't remember when you're young, that every, everyone you meet on your way up, like you you could meet on your way down. Yeah, you want, your reputation is everything. And did I do that perfectly all the time? And no, I did not. But you want, you want to think about 20 years from now when someone says I worked with her or for her. What are the words you want them to say? Do you want them to be like scatty but a good time or like a perfectionist but mean? I think you need to think about how you want to be viewed as a co worker, as a leader and make sure everything you're doing aligns with that. Did I always do that? Absolutely not. But I think that is advice I would give myself again so I could correct some of those mistakes along the way.
- [23:24]
Farnoosh Torabi
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- [26:48]
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- [27:20]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
You're 100% right about that. And even I'll say as somebody who doesn't work in corporate any longer, relationships matter. The influence that you have and leave on the imprints that you leave on relationships. Now I can say in my 40s that I have met people on the way down and I've met them sideways and up, down, all the ends. And the one thing that I hear more than anything else when someone reaches out to me to work again together is how much they enjoyed working together once upon a time.
- [27:53]
Caroline Palmer
And that is such an endorsement when someone wants to work with you again.
- [27:56]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Yeah.
- [27:57]
Caroline Palmer
And I've had that happen. And I've had that not happen. Yeah. And like when it doesn't happen, it's a moment of, okay, like, where did I, like, where did I present myself? Or where did I like. It isn't a moment of reflection when it does happen.
- [28:10]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yes.
- [28:11]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
So you started at 17. I mean, you earned less than 25,000. It's so funny because I don't know, what year was that? Was that like 2000? So I started in magazines around that time and I was making, it was an hourly. It was $18 an hour. I was working at timing and. But I got overtime and I got free dinner and taxis home if I stayed past seven. And that's how I milked the system.
- [28:38]
Caroline Palmer
Oh, yeah, the system was for milking, but they knew that.
- [28:41]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Yeah, but I don't know if that wage has really gone up with inflation. And so how did you make ends meet back then? Because Even back then, 25,000 in New York City, if maybe you had some student loans, maybe you had some credit card debt, even if not just walking out of your house, of your apartment, you're already down negative 50 bucks. So what were some of the creative ways that you would save money in your 20s?
- [29:07]
Caroline Palmer
What's so funny is I don't think I can tell you how much money I spent since I woke up this morning, but I can tell you exactly how much money I spent when I was 22 years old because I got a 700 paycheck every two weeks after taxes. My rent on the apartment I had with two other roommates. There was three of us in a two bedroom apartment, the converted area to be like the third bedroom. We all paid. I paid the smallest room, so I had, I paid 850amonth plus then I had my brand new cell phone bill, which I like, which was like 50 some. Remember, you paid the minutes, you were like, call me after 8. Remember minutes. So you're like, I can't talk, but. And I remember the other thing is. So that left me with how much? Like 600, 550amonth. And that didn't include, like, eating out or taking taxis or. And what else do you pay for back then? Oh, your utilities on your apartment. So I was rolling with, like, four. A hundred dollars a week, basically breaking it down. So I never took taxis ever. I walked everywhere or took a subway. Never took taxis unless it was late. But the other thing is that when I was working at Conde Nast, I would eat all three meals at that cafeteria. Like, I would put stuff in a box. Everything was at that cafeteria. So that was my food. But also, when you were working there, sometimes there was other benefits of working there, like getting free theater tickets or going to a movie for free. But I think I was just, like, really sailing close to the wind all the time. I remember I bought a periwinkle Ann Taylor silky turtleneck my second year living in New York, and it was $79 or $89, something like that. And I have a. I was, like, agonizing over it for, like, why did I buy that? I can't afford it. And then I leaned on a pen, wearing it the second time I wore it and had a huge pen mark. And I just. I remember that it was under a hundred dollars, this turtleneck. It was periwinkle. And it was the most stressful purchase I ever made because it went on my credit card and I couldn't afford it and I bought it anyway. And there's something so charming about that time. Sounds like, awful, but I wasn't, like, trying to keep a family afloat and all these other things. And obviously people need to have a wage that works, but everyone I knew was, like, bumming cigarettes and, where's the place that has the cheap beers? You know? And there was a camaraderie. There was, like, a masterhood, a brotherh in it, because we were all in the same boat at that time. I didn't feel like, you know, I was like, the poor person in New York. I just felt like I'd found the right group to run around with. And a lot of us were in the same boat.
- [31:47]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
There's a lesson in that.
- [31:48]
Verizon Advertiser
Yes.
- [31:49]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
And that happened to you in your 20s. I think it's so true, even as you get older.
- [31:53]
Caroline Palmer
I was like, I think it was still happening in my 30s. Let me think. Like, it didn't. It takes a while for that salary to.
- [31:59]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
There's tons written about Just when there is in disparate wealth within friend groups, it creates.
- [32:08]
Caroline Palmer
Yeah.
- [32:08]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Difficulty. Right. Like how do we hang out? What do we do? One person wants to do this one. But yeah, when you're in it together, you're in it to win it together. And I remember those days too, those years.
- [32:18]
Caroline Palmer
And it's also a moment in time. You're like, who knows what's going to happen to us and maybe someone, one
- [32:23]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
of us will get really rich. Yeah, yeah.
- [32:25]
Caroline Palmer
It's just there's a lot of possibility in it. And I just remember I. I remember it fondly. The fact that I can remember the one shirt I bought in like a five year period is funny and sad, but also like sweet. And so I do. And I was getting to do something for a living that I was like, my job is better than anyone else's job.
- [32:42]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Yep.
- [32:43]
Caroline Palmer
Like my friend in statement marketing at a credit card company, my job is better than her job. So there was a little of that too.
- [32:50]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
What was your proudest moment during an interview? Maybe. I'm sure you had many job interviews or meetings with your bosses. It might not have been an interview, but maybe it was a discussion that was going to. There was a negotiation or.
- [33:05]
Caroline Palmer
I don't know.
- [33:05]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
I'm just curious because do you have one? I do and I've talked.
- [33:11]
Caroline Palmer
Can you tell? Like, can you tell me? I can't think of one example is
- [33:15]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
I was up for a new job. I was switching jobs. I was interviewing and I was really close to getting this job. And we were now talking about money. And the. My future boss was across the table and he said, how much would you like to make? Which is such a horrible question. It's like, how do you answer that? And I had done a little homework and prep beforehand. I talked to some people about what. What's ballpark I should ask for? And my advice, the advice I got was to ask for $100,000 for this job. Which for me was like, I would have been making more than double what I was making.
- [33:49]
Caroline Palmer
Yeah, you would had so many Ann Taylor turtlenecks. Oh my God.
- [33:52]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
I started doing the math already and trust me, I was like, that's this many black palms that I can get our actual, actual pencil skirt with lining. I'm gonna invest in quality clothes. Oh yeah, no more of this dry cleaners. Exactly. My world is changing. And so I really went for it. I was like, I would like to make a hundred thousand dollars. And they didn't even blink. They were like, we were prepared to offer. We're prepared to offer you 85. Which honestly, I was like so thrilled with 85 because again, I making 40. And then they said, we can give you 85. How about we revisit giving you a raise in six months?
- [34:29]
Caroline Palmer
And that's what I knew.
- [34:30]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
That's never happening. Who never raised in six months?
- [34:33]
Caroline Palmer
Nobody.
- [34:33]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Nobody. So I said, how about this? How about you give me. How about we settle at 90 and I won't bother you in six months? And they said, deal.
- [34:43]
Caroline Palmer
Very good.
- [34:44]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
So that was a proud moment because again, I could only have done that though, after having received so many nos and rejections at my old job. I would go in and ask for more and it was justified. I'm like, I'm doing all this stuff above and beyond. I'm doing two people's roles. My income hasn't moved at all. I've been here two and a half years. I'm still making at the bottom rung of the salary range, et cetera, et cetera. And their. Their whole thing was just like, you have to prove it to prove it. And I'm like, what does that mean?
- [35:13]
Caroline Palmer
I'm doing work.
- [35:14]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Prove what?
- [35:15]
Caroline Palmer
That I checklist. You need me to. But good for you, honestly, because I don't feel like, especially at those ages. And in that time, I was the definitely not, like, going around asking for raises. I definitely fell into that category of I'm just lucky to have the job every day was like, I just don't want to get fired. So I just. And I think that obviously is putting me at a disadvantage. The best advice I got about salary, though negotiations was, and I used it once and it is actually does work, or it did work, which was you get them to say, I hate when they're asking you, like, how much do you want to make? You're like, I don't know, like a gajillion dollars. Like, why don't you tell me what the whole is budgeted for and then we can like work from there when you'll lie to me and I'll know you're lying to me. We know that game. But so my one friend said, you have to get them to say the first number. Like, you have to have them do that. And the only thing you say, even if it is a gajillion dollars, like, even if it's so much more than you want, the only thing you're supposed to say is, that's not what I was expecting. And not say anything else for a second. Like, obviously. And he. So he. This guy who did it once. And the person was like, oh, okay. And then, like, just all of a sudden, like, up to the number because. And he was like. And the first number was, like, way more than I thought it was gonna be. So I'm always like, all right, I wanna go in and be like, that's not in my luck, though. Someone would say to me, like, what were you expecting? And I would have to, like, come up with some answer.
- [36:34]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
It's more. And then you have to show your car.
- [36:36]
Caroline Palmer
But I guess, like, the implication is you're disappointed. But he was like, I was freaking out. It was so much more money than I thought. But someone told me to say that. And he's like, I have 15,000 more dollars. I was like, oh, my God.
- [36:46]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Oh, my gosh.
- [36:47]
Caroline Palmer
I don't know. Somebody try that. Let me know.
- [36:49]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
I think you told me once that you met Anna Wintour. Probably more than once, but were you ever in a room with her alone? I almost bumped into her.
- [36:57]
Caroline Palmer
She was my only boss for 10 years. I saw her in a room alone 15 times a day.
- [37:02]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
All right, how much time you got? Because I want to know all the things.
- [37:04]
Caroline Palmer
She is a great person to have an opportunity to work. And this sounds like I'm like, reading from the PR book, but if you look at what she's done. So she took on that job when she was 38 years old. Right. She's 75 now. Maybe as a woman in this business, like, she is, she has figured out, like, say what you will of the Persona and the whatever. Like, it is such a masterclass in branding and, like, knowing what to expect and, like, she knows it and she knows how to work it. And I remember one story that made me love her. She's as complicated as anyone else. That's. Nobody's perfect. But there was someone that I was having trouble with, an outside person to do the job we needed them to do, and I was trying to handle it, and I finally had to go to her and say, I'm having a really hard time getting these guys to step up or do the thing. She was like, do you want me to go into the meeting with them? And I'm like, that would be great. And I just remember she put her sunglasses on and walked into the meeting and sat down and said nothing. And I was like. They were just like. Like, fluster city. And, like, I. She maybe said four words. And by the time it was over, it was like they were on board. They were doing what was needed. They were doing more than what was needed. And I was like, that is like a lesson, right? Like, of just knowing your power, knowing how to harness it. She was also just a very efficient person, which is something I really did take from working with her, especially after I had children. Is I screw around all the time at work. I'm like, is it your birthday? Do you wanna get your dress? I like your sweater. You don't wanna work with me. I never shut up. And once I had my son and I was like, oh, God, I have to leave and whatever. Like my first child, I. And I was like a panicked. I suddenly really understood the efficiency and just. She was. Any weakness she had, it was managed for. She didn't have to deal with it. Our meetings were a minute and a half long. And just the way she ran her office. It was something I observed and like really have that. That efficiency part of it is something I really admired and it just something I really took with me after I left there.
- [39:14]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
When you stopped working to write the book, but obviously because also the pandemic. How are you feeling in that moment as far as a career person to not work?
- [39:24]
Caroline Palmer
I mean, when I wasn't drunk, crying in the shower, 4:30 in the afternoon, how was I feeling? Thanks so much for asking. I felt lost. I felt totally lost. I had quit my job. I was in my 40s. I had these interesting post jobs or these interesting jobs before, and I went through a real crisis of I'm never gonna get hired again. I really felt like I didn't know what I had to offer. I didn't know if I was gonna be too old, to be perfectly honest, to be hired. I had this moment where I was like, oh, my God, I had. My career's over. Like, I went job to job. And now I've been out of the game for two years. I'm updating my resume. Like, the whole thing was super disheartening. But to flip it, I would say that once I started writing the book and everything that has happened with the book, it was like a lesson I needed to learn because I really felt. And I don't. I feel like I don't know how women feel in their 60s and 70s, but I think your 40s are a moment where you can feel like, am I done? Am I still marketable? Am I like, what was I supposed to create that was mine? I just. I feel like I had a midlife career crisis in that sense. And I felt really bad. Yeah. And washed up and all of that stuff. And. But I think that doing this project, which was something I Owned. It was like my own thing. And having it go well, which could have gone poorly, made me like, I sit here now and I'm like, oh, my God, I could literally do anything. Like, I could do anything. And I know I can do it. And, like, I can keep changing this narrative, but I had a few years where I did not believe that at all. And I took up tennis, as one does when they fall into that sad hole. And I wasn't good at that either. So, you know, there's a great book
- [41:15]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
called Suck at Something. Just because I also love to fail at tennis. I love the ritual of tennis. I love the. Just the tennis court, the tennis sneakers,
- [41:27]
Caroline Palmer
like, the tennis outfits.
- [41:29]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Outfits.
- [41:30]
Caroline Palmer
It's. If you were a team person or a competitive person, like, it can really scratch that itch.
- [41:35]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
The humility that I have gained from that game has been an asset. And I think that's a great takeaway for everybody, is just throw yourself into something. And even if it's not the act of it is not what you're going to excel at, but maybe it's just being there brings you happiness. And.
- [41:52]
Caroline Palmer
Yeah, and I think also as you get older, this idea of, I'm gonna bastardize the saying, but it's. Don't go to the left. There's some saying of, do not waste your time. It's like a basketball thing, like trying to strengthen your left hand if you are naturally, like, with your right. Like, I feel like as I've gotten older, like, I used. There used to be a joke about me at the office. They're one of all my offices where I like someone come in and be like, my carburetor is broken. And I would be the first person to be like, I can fix your carburetor. I was so desperate to be of value and of service and needed that I would try to do everything. And I think I like. As in this time, I've gotten more clear about what are you actually good at and what do you actually like? And maybe just do that. Do those things. Don't try to learn things you're not interested in just because you think they're valuable or marketable or you're here for some reason at this point, you need to start, like, figuring that out. I think that there's a lot that's exciting after a period of, like, feeling a lot of indecision and a lot of nervousness.
- [42:52]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Yeah. I'm learning that our careers, they're in ebbs and flows. And when you've been working constantly in your 20s and in your 30s, it becomes your identity. And then taking breaks. Whether they're forced or self initiated, they're important.
- [43:07]
Caroline Palmer
You. Yes.
- [43:09]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Kind of shore up and then go back and re. Reconfigure.
- [43:13]
Caroline Palmer
Yeah.
- [43:14]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
As we close out, tell us a little bit more about Workhorse and ultimately, what is the big lesson that you want readers to take away from it? I know that it's fiction and sometimes it's just meant to be like an enjoyable read, but if there is some sort of piece of advice you want, particularly the young readers who may be reading it and seeing themselves in your protagonist, what do you want them to think differently about as they pursue their careers?
- [43:44]
Caroline Palmer
Oh, gosh, I don't know if I can answer that from the book. The book is. It's not like a view of working as a young person in publishing, really. It is. That's like the setting, but it's got a lot more like someone. A couple people have said it's like a talented Mr. Ripley.
- [43:59]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Yeah.
- [44:00]
Caroline Palmer
So maybe don't be like our protagonist entirely. Although I think the most interesting discussion I've had about the book with all the people I've talked to is how they feel about the main character. And it's very. It's interesting to me. How do you different people feel about the main character? So I have talked to people who, like, have so much tenderness for her and they feel sorry for her and they understand her, and while they don't approve of her, like, they can go with her. And then I have people who literally are like, I hate this character. This is the worst character. I hate it. And I find that part to be really interesting to have those conversations on both sides.
- [44:40]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
She's like the Marty Supreme.
- [44:42]
Caroline Palmer
I haven't seen Marty supreme, but every
- [44:45]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
time I hear someone talk about Marty supreme, they're like, I know he's the protagonist, but I can't stand him.
- [44:51]
Caroline Palmer
That's actually good to hear about, like a male character.
- [44:54]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Yeah.
- [44:54]
Caroline Palmer
Because I don't know if you always hear that as much like, he's not that likable.
- [44:59]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Actually, according to some of my friends
- [45:01]
Caroline Palmer
who've seen the movie, I guess I'll have to see that movie and every other movie that has ever been put out in the last five years. Every movie.
- [45:11]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Tell us a little bit about this new book, which I know you have not even yet. But was it inspired by Workhorse, what kind of brought you to this new body of work?
- [45:24]
Caroline Palmer
No, it wasn't. It was. I think when you're a writer, anyone who creates anything like you See stories everywhere, right? I drive around in my car and I'm like, that's a story. That's a story. Like, I just. My head is constantly. I'm con. I have 10,000 ideas, right? And it's like, how do you execute them? And. And so my writing is a little bit more literary. It's more. It's less like beach ready in tone and more like literary in the bent. And I say that, like, with all the human. Not literary, but. And it's funny. The book is funny. So being funny is something I want to hang on to because I enjoy writing that way. But I think this current one is like a couple of threads coming. In fact, I had two disparate ide ideas, and they were stressing me out. And so I decided to see. Could you smush them together and do this? The two book ideas as one book. And so that's what I'm trying to do. It might work. It might not work. I don't know. I don't plot. I love to say I don't. Like, I've done it a thousand times, but I haven't. I didn't plot workhorse like some people are. I heard this the other day. There's plotters and something else. I'm not a plotter, so I just write into it. But other people know where the book is going and know what the twists are and know what I don't. So far. It sounds corny, but it reveals itself as I'm going along.
- [46:42]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Okay. If that was ever a tease, there was ever a tease there. There it is.
- [46:46]
Caroline Palmer
That was a bad one.
- [46:47]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
Caroline Palmer. Caroline Palmer, thank you so much. Congratulations. And we'll see you in town. I'll see you in town.
- [46:55]
Caroline Palmer
Yeah. Yeah, you will. For sure.
- [46:59]
Farnoosh Torabi
Thanks so much to Caroline Palmer for joining us. Her book Workhorse is available everywhere. I've linked it in our show notes. Stick around, because Wednesday I am sitting down with Heather Bonaparte. She's an attorney and the author of Money Together, and we dissect the book Strangers by Belle Burden.
- [47:18]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
If you haven't heard about it, it
- [47:20]
Farnoosh Torabi
is the number one New York Times bestseller. It's a memoir of marriage, her marriage falling apart in the pandemic and all
- [47:27]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
of the lessons, mostly the financial lessons.
- [47:30]
Farnoosh Torabi
I finally finished reading it and I have thoughts. Stay tuned.
- [47:33]
Farnoosh Torabi (Interviewer)
And I hope your day is so money.
- [47:49]
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