1975: How to Gain Mental Strength and Financial Resilience in Uncertain Times

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: So Money with Farnoosh Torabi
Episode: 1975 – How to Gain Mental Strength and Financial Resilience in Uncertain Times
Date: April 27, 2026
Host: Farnoosh Torabi
Guest: Amy Morin (Psychotherapist, mental strength trainer, bestselling author, host of the Mentally Strong podcast)

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Overview

In this engaging episode, Farnoosh Torabi sits down with Amy Morin to unpack the realities of building mental strength and financial resilience, especially during challenging and uncertain times. Morin shares insights from her new book, The Mental Strength Playbook, and draws on her personal experiences—including her unexpected life on a sailboat—offering listeners practical advice, memorable anecdotes, and actionable strategies to strengthen their mindset and navigate adversity with intention.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Mental Strength (02:45, 15:14)

• Mental strength is a combination of how you think, feel, and behave.
  • Thoughts: Recognizing that many thoughts are not facts and can be counterproductive.
  • Emotions: All emotions can be helpful or harmful, depending on the context.
  • Behaviors: Taking meaningful action even when you don’t “feel” strong.
• Quote:

  “You don’t have to feel strong to be strong. There’s plenty of days I don’t feel strong either. But I’ll just ask, like, what would I do if I had mental strength in this situation?”
  — Amy Morin (16:37)

2. The Backstory: Living on a Sailboat (05:19)

• Amy describes how an “adventure” living on a boat became her life.
• Encourages taking chances without waiting to be “ready.”
• Quote:

  “If you waited until you felt ready, I don’t think you’ll ever do it… There will never be a time where you have all the answers.”
  — Amy Morin (06:43)

3. Modern Burnout and Why It’s Rampant Now (10:47)

• Many people haven’t recovered from the pandemic, and boundaries between work and home have blurred.
• Burnout is fed by persistent connectivity and a rat race mentality.
• People are questioning traditional markers of success (degrees, homeownership, careers) and are seeking meaning and relief.

4. Performing a Life Audit: Aligning Values, Time, and Money (11:34)

• Audit your life by examining where your time and money are going.
• Ask: Does your calendar or bank statement reflect your values?
• Steps:
  • Identify what matters most.
  • Track how your resources (time, energy, money) are used.
  • Adjust to align better with your true priorities.

5. Making Change Realistic: Small Steps Over Time (13:16)

• Large changes can feel impossible, but consistent small actions (even 20 minutes per week) lead to progress.
• Example: Amy started a successful jewelry business during a period of grief, in small increments.
• Quote:

  “If you only have 20 minutes a week to work on something, and you really worked on it, 20 minutes a week, like, you can still make some progress. And all of us can find some time, right?”
  — Amy Morin (13:16)

6. Characterizing Mental Strength—Recognizing Weak Spots (15:14)

• Common signs you’re not using mental strength:
  • Relying on others to decide your life.
  • Negative self-talk and believing every thought.
  • Avoiding discomfort or always doing what’s easy.
• The need to develop self-awareness and challenge yourself to grow.

7. Confidence and Speaking Up Safely (18:57)

• Advocating for oneself, especially in workplaces, isn’t always easy or safe—for some, just speaking up in minor situations (like in an Uber) is tough.
• Incremental exposure and reframing fears are helpful.
• Quote:

  “Just recognizing, like, when is it I wouldn’t speak up? And why... And it often boils down to this thing of, like, ‘I’m not good enough. If I speak up and I say something, people judge me.’”
  — Amy Morin (19:52)

8. Managing Rumination and Anxiety (29:13)

• Worry Scheduling: Set aside a specific time each day (e.g., 15 minutes) to worry about your problems. Outside this window, postpone worry to that scheduled time.
• Helps contain anxiety and prevent it from dominating your life.
• Quote:

  “You set aside 15 minutes a day to worry about that thing, schedule it... And when you worry outside of that time, you just tell yourself it’s not time to worry about that yet.”
  — Amy Morin (29:13)

9. Good vs. Bad Stress (31:28)

• Stress can be harnessed for productivity (“good stress”) but too much or unmanaged stress becomes harmful.
• Self-awareness is crucial: check in with your body and mind; adjust your self-talk.
• Don’t mistaken temporary exhaustion for clinical burnout.

10. Boundaries: Reset, Rebuild, Refocus (36:03)

• Boundaries can erode over time—whether with money, time, or relationships.
• It’s never too late for a “boundary reset.”
• Advice: If you’ve let boundaries slip (e.g., started answering emails after 7 pm again), communicate the reset and return to your standard.

11. Media and Technology—Setting Digital Boundaries (37:19)

• Breaks from social media and not sleeping with your phone have research-backed benefits for mental health.
• Try not having your phone by the bed; most people experience better sleep and less anxiety.

12. Problem vs. Feeling: Figuring Out What Needs Solving (35:13)

• Ask: Do I need to solve the actual problem or just how I feel about the problem?
• Avoid avoidance behaviors like distracting yourself from financial issues with entertainment; sometimes it’s necessary to face discomfort head-on.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “There’s no finite number of decisions you can make in life.”
  — Farnoosh Torabi (08:16)

• “If you trust, ‘I’m smart enough, capable enough, and competent enough that I’ll figure it out’... then I think you can move forward.”
  — Amy Morin (07:56)

• “If you don’t invest time into [your mental health] upfront, it will take the time eventually when you do say, I just can’t function anymore.”
  — Amy Morin (33:59)

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Important Timestamps & Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |----------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:45–05:00 | Amy introduces mental strength—thoughts, feelings, behaviors | | 05:19–08:16 | Amy’s story: moving to a sailboat and embracing uncertainty | | 10:47–11:34 | Why burnout is so widespread right now | | 11:34–12:29 | How to do a life audit | | 13:16–14:48 | Making changes through small, consistent steps | | 15:14–16:49 | Recognizing mental weakness and areas for growth | | 18:57–22:23 | Building confidence and safely advocating for yourself | | 29:13–31:28 | Scheduling worry—containing rumination and anxiety | | 31:28–33:59 | Differentiating good stress and bad stress; self-awareness | | 35:13–36:53 | Solving the problem or the feeling? Setting boundaries, resetting them | | 37:19–38:42 | Digital boundaries; positive effects of limiting media and phone use |

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Actionable Strategies & Tools

• Life Audit: Regularly check if your time/money match your values.
• Worry Scheduling: Allocate 15 minutes a day for worries; postpone outside that slot.
• Small Steps: Dedicate even 20 minutes per week toward a goal.
• Boundary Reset: If you let things slip, communicate and reestablish your rules.
• Media Detox: Try not sleeping with your phone, minimize social media use for better mental health.

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Tone and Takeaway

The conversation is approachable, warm, and pragmatic—Morin and Torabi tackle the messiness of real life, acknowledging discomfort and fear while championing self-awareness and incremental progress. Their message: You can start small, recalibrate anytime, and mental strength is built through conscious, sometimes uncomfortable, but always actionable steps.

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Recommended Next Steps:

• Reflect on your life’s current alignment to your values.
• Try scheduling a dedicated “worry time” to contain anxiety.
• Identify 1–2 areas to reset boundaries (digital, relational, financial).
• Start a small step toward a goal or change—even 20 minutes can build momentum.

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For more from Amy Morin, check out her new book, The Mental Strength Playbook, and explore previous So Money episodes for further inspiration on building resilience in all areas of life.

Transcript

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[Farnoosh Torabi]

So Money Episode 1975 how to gain

mental strength and financial resilience in uncertain times.

You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Torabi. Each day get a 30min dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers, and from farnouche yourself. Looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to so Money.

[Amy Morin]

Mental strength is about the way you think, the way you feel, and the way you behave. So we know a lot of our thoughts aren't true. My brain will tell me all the time like, you can't do that or you're going to embarrass yourself. But I don't have to believe that. I can say, all right, sure, maybe I will embarrass myself, but that's okay. Or maybe I'm going to fail, but I'll be okay if I do. Training ourselves to not believe everything we think and to respond to the unhelpful thoughts is part of it. The second part is our emotions. And knowing that emotions aren't like positive or negative, that any emotion can be helpful, but some of them can be harmful too, even the ones we typically think are positive. People will be like, oh, excitement. That's a positive emotion. Well, it's not. If I came to you with this incredible get rich quick scheme and you get so excited that you fall prey for it, excitement was not your friend in that moment.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Welcome to so Money everybody. I'm Farnoosh Tarabi, kicking off the week

with a great episode on Mental Health.

What does it mean to be really

mentally strong right now?

What does it take?

Not in theory, not in a self help quote kind of way, but in the real messy everyday moments when your job feels uncertain, your finances feel totally stretched, and your life does not look

the way that you thought it would.

My guest today is Amy Morin.

She's spent her career helping people answer exactly that question.

She's a psychotherapist, mental strength trainer, and host of the Mentally Strong podcast. You probably know her from her global

best selling series 13 things mentally strong

People don't do, which has sold more than a million copies, translated into over 50 languages.

Her TEDx talk on mental strength has

been viewed more than 25 million times. And now she has a new book. It's called the Mental Strength Playbook and it's all about what to do in the moments when you need resilience most at work, in your finances and in your life. And yes, she's joining us from a sailboat in the Florida Keys.

We get into the real work in this conversation, including why so many of

us feel burnt out right now and

what's actually driving that.

How to do a life audit that aligns your time and money with your values. The small practical steps that can help you get unstuck even when change feels impossible.

And the mental tools you can use

right now, immediately, whether you're facing anxiety at work, a financial setback, or just that constant background worry that is not quitting. Here we go. Here's Amy Morin.

Amy Morin, welcome back to Sew Money. It's great to see you on your boat.

[Amy Morin]

I think I am on the boat. Thank you so much for having me back, Farnoosh. Always a pleasure to see you.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yes, well, I said it. So maybe we should tell everybody how cool your, your life is. Tell us about where you're at and how it all came to be.

[Amy Morin]

Yeah, we kind of left it right there like, oh, you're on a boat.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

But.

[Amy Morin]

And I forget because I, I live on a boat, so sometimes I forget that. That's weird. It's been 11 years now that I have lived on a sailboat. It was supposed to be a six month adventure and I'm still here. So I live on a sailboat in the Florida Keys. It's, I'm not really like floating around in the oce people picture. I'm usually tied to a dock so I can have high speed Internet and hot water and all of those things. But yeah, I get to see manatees and dolphins and cool stuff right outside.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

One more question about this and then we'll get into your new book. But you know, a lot of people right now are reconsidering the decisions they've made. Like, you know, you had these moments where like I'm questioning all my life's decisions. There's a lot of uncertainty in the financial context. Many of the things that we went for, you know, it was like the college degree, the career, buying a house. Like it's not panning out and you're doing something very cool and different. And I want to hear from you, like, what would be your piece of advice or encouragement to those people that are afraid to maybe step outside? What is maybe getting into your book right away? You know, the mental strength that people need to make these kinds of alternative life choices.

[Amy Morin]

In some cases you don't have to be ready. Like if you waited until you felt ready, I don't think you'll ever do it. Instead you just take the action. And in my case, I'm married to a man whose bedroom was decorated in a sailboat theme when he was 4. So he like always wanted. Correct. So this was his dream. It wasn't mine. Like, I knew nothing about being on a boat. And we had bought a slip in the Florida Keys as a sort of an investment opportunity. You can rent them out. And so we had it as a rental. Our tenant gave notice in, I think, about November, and we were like, oh, that's nice. We'll find a new tenant, and we'll live there someday. And, like, as soon as the word someday came out of my mouth, I was like, you know, someday's not promised. Why do we want to wait? And it wasn't, like, convenient. It wasn't, like, the easiest time to do it. We didn't even have a boat at the time. But we decided to just go ahead and take the plunge. And so Steve went and found a boat. I was like, sure, whatever you pick is fine. It's not like I have an educated opinion to weigh in. And then we just did it. We had a Fiat at the time and a dog and a cat and a laptop, and, like, really nothing else packed in it. And we just went from Maine to South Florida. And I was like, I guess I'll figure it out as we go. So I would say for anybody who's thinking about making some kind of a big change is to just trust you'll figure it out as you go. There will never be a time where you have all the answers, where you can encounter the things that you're going to face, the challenges that are going to come up, and you can't plan for all of those things. But if you trust I'm smart enough, capable enough, and competent enough that I'll figure it out. And if it doesn't work, you could always come up with a different plan. Then I think you can move forward and say, all right, let's take the leap.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

You can always change your direction. As someone said, you make a decision, and then guess what? You can make another decision. There's no finite number of decisions you can make in life. So let's talk about your latest book. It's called the Mental Strength Playbook. And your career has really dove deep in this concept of mental strength. And one of the last time you were on the show, we talked about things mentally strong people don't do. And this book is sort of like the here's what to do playbook. What was the sort of idea behind this presentation of mental strength and why you wanted to focus on the right things to do?

[Amy Morin]

I'd spend so many years talking about what not to do. So I've got six books in the 13 Things Mentally Strong People don't do series. But I was finding a lot of people were saying, like, what do I do right now? Like, it's great to say I'm gonna change my life. I'm gonna come up with all these lifestyle changes. But, like, if I have anxiety right now, knowing that I should sleep better and eat a healthy diet doesn't help me. Like, I need fast relief. So I think about it kind of like urgent care versus preventative care. Like, you need to see a primary care physician to make sure that you're maintaining your health. But when you're in pain, you wanna go to urgent care, Right? And you don't want that doctor to give you a vitamin. You want some pain relief right now. And so I wanted to write this book that would give people that pain relief. And I'm glad I didn't write it first as my very first book, because I didn't want people to be like, okay, I have this list of, like, mental strength hacks. And now I'm incredibly mentally strong because you need the foundation, too. But at the same time, like, what do you do at work when you have to give a presentation and your anxiety's through the roof, or when your personal life is falling apart and you're supposed to concentrate on this work project? So that's what really led to this. And I start the book with my story of after my husband died. My first husband died when we were 26, and I still had to go to work as a therapist. And figuring out, how do you show up at work when your life is falling apart wasn't just about, well, you should eat better and make sure you're sleeping well. I also needed some of these strategies to make sure I was getting through every day, one day at a time.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

I want to get into those strategies. And I remember that story. It was such a powerful story. We'll put that link in the show notes. If anybody wants to go back and listen to your last time on so Money, what do you think it is, Amy, about right now that makes the urgency so ever present? Right. I mean, everyone's always in all the times we struggle, we struggle with things like anxiety and stress. But particularly now, what do you see as some of the leading amplifiers?

[Amy Morin]

Of course, everybody's talking about burnout right now. And so many people are saying, I never really recovered from the changes that we went through with the pandemic. And there's so much about our devices and how difficult it is to turn work off. People are saying, I'm Carrying work home with me mentally, physically, emotionally. I just can't stop thinking about my workday. I don't feel like I've done enough. And at the same time, people are feeling burned out. And as you say, people are starting to entertain completely different lifestyle choices because they're just saying, why am I caught up in this rat race? What's the point of getting up every day if it's just to go to work and then pay the bills so I can live in an expensive house? So I think people are really looking for some relief and some changes of what is it about my life that I need to do differently? So I feel like I have that passion and that zest for life when I wake up in the morning.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yeah, you talk about kind of doing this audit of your life. What's on the checklist of that audit.

[Amy Morin]

I think it's really about making sure that your priorities are in line with your goals and the way that you want to live your life and your values. So often we invest way too much time into, say, complaining about negative people, or we invest tons of time into worrying about things that we can't change anyway or rehashing something from the past. So it's really about knowing, like, what's. What's important in my life right now. If somebody were to look at my calendar, would that really reflect my values? If somebody looked through my banking account, would you be able to tell what I value in life? And for a lot of us, the answer is no. That I spend so much time doing these things that I don't love, or I end up spending a lot of money on things that I didn't really need, but maybe I just got sucked into it. So when we audit our lives, it's really about taking stock of those things. What's really important, where's my time and energy going? And how might I want to do things differently?

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Well.

Well, how might I want to do things differently? Those shifts, we can get in our own ways sometimes in believing that we can do those things. Whether we say, well, that's going to take more time or more resources, or I just don't have the capacity to do that right now because my life is designed in such a way where it's not just me. I'm taking care of other people. And so I realize, I recognize that things aren't working ideally at the same time, how do I make these shifts? And so let's talk to that person. They've done the. They've done the audit. They realize there's room for improvement. And now they still feel stuck because they're not sure how to quit their jobs or move or make an investment that might pay off in the future. But right now, it's really difficult to make. That financial shift comes down to the

[Amy Morin]

small steps that we take. You don't need a huge chunk of time. Sometimes maybe it's 20 minutes a day. And whether you decide you're gonna start a side hustle, whether you say, you know, I've always wanted to write a book, you just want to explore a new hobby. You don't need a ton of time. It would be great if we all had large chunks of time, but we also know if we had unlimited time, we'd probably never get those things done. I don't know about you, but, like, when I write a book, having a deadline helps helps make sure I actually get it done. If I had had, like, oh, write a book whenever you want, I wouldn't have written it. And so if you only have 20 minutes a week to work on something, and you really worked on it, 20 minutes a week, like, you can still make some progress and all of us can find some time, right? If we're honest, we scroll through social media. We do things that we don't need to do. We could make the time if we wanted to. If you can't find the time, you don't create the time. Maybe it's just not a priority. But I think starting with the really small things. And one of the things I did. So after my husband passed away, it was just down to me. I had a mortgage to pay. I was a therapist. And you can't work, like, overtime as a therapist. The office is only open so many hours a week, and you'd burn out anyway and wouldn't be an effective therapist. So I was like, well, I don't really want to move right now. What am I going to do? Well, I started a jewelry company. I knew nothing about jewelry. I knew nothing about websites. But, like, I did it in my spare time, even though I was grieving just a little chunk at a time, and ended up building this jewelry company that started making more money than I did at my therapy job. But we can do some incredible things if we just say, how do I start small, like, what's the smallest step I can take?

[Farnoosh Torabi]

When you describe mental strength, what are all of the feelings? Like, if you're trying to figure out whether you're mentally strong or weak, what are the. I guess we talked about the audit, but, like, also, what's the. What are the characterizations, you know, are you somebody who sort of defers too much to other people to make decisions about your own life?

What are.

[Michaels Advertiser]

What are.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

What are we. What are we actually experiencing through life as someone who is not mentally strong?

[Amy Morin]

So mental strength's about the way you think, the way you feel, and the way you behave. So we know a lot of our thoughts aren't true. My brain will tell me all the time, like, oh, you can't do that, or you're going to embarrass yourself. But I don't have to believe that. I can say, all right, sure, maybe I will embarrass, embarrass myself, but that's okay. Or maybe I'm gonna fail, but I'll be okay if I do. Training ourselves to not believe everything we think and to respond to the unhelpful thoughts is part of it. The second part is our emotions. And knowing that emotions aren't like, positive or negative, that any emotion can be helpful, but some of them can be harmful too, even the ones we typically think are positive. People will be like, oh, excitement. That's a positive emotion. Well, it's not. If I came to you with this incredible get rich quick scheme and you get so excited that you fall prey for it. Excitement was not friend in that moment. And so it's about knowing that. Or like, sadness. It's not fun to be sad, but sometimes you have to be sad to really honor something that you've lost. So mental strength is about really just taking stock of your emotions, knowing when it's helpful to feel them, but also when it's helpful to not feel them and to say, I gotta take action. If you're about to give a presentation at work and your anxiety's through the roof, you need a remedy in that moment to say, how do I bring my anxiety down so I can function better. And then the third part of mental strength is about the actions that we take. Right. Most of us, doesn't matter if you sit on the couch and you think positively all day long, like, what are you going to do about this challenge that you face? Or how are you going to make your life or the world a little bit better? And for everybody to know, you don't have to feel strong to be strong. There's plenty of days I don't feel strong either. But I'll just ask, like, what would I do if I had mental strength in this situation?

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yeah.

[Amy Morin]

And so for some people, mental strength is like, I'm going to speak up in a meeting. But for the Person who talks all the time, maybe it's, you know what, I'm going to try to stay quiet for a few minutes and let somebody else speak. So. So we really have to have some self awareness. Knowing ourselves, knowing what our goals are, and knowing, like, how do I sand off some of the rough edges that I have?

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Right. Sounds like it's involved getting uncomfortable.

[Amy Morin]

Absolutely. And so, you know, as a therapist, people are like, my life is uncomfortable enough. Like, I don't need to challenge myself in any way, shape or form, which I understand. But the truth is, like, you don't really have the opportunity to build strength if you don't challenge yourself.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Right.

[Amy Morin]

If you don't know what you're capable of, then it makes sense. Once you get into a tough situation, you're going to think, I can't handle this. But if you've given yourself challenges and you've seen yourself rise to the occasion, then you have some evidence, okay, this isn't the end of the world. I can get through it.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

And like other kinds of strength, the more you flex the muscle, the easier it gets. You think, like, what's, what's like a good timeline for people. Like, if you do this every day or you said 20 minutes a day dedicated to sort of rethinking your life or working on a book or something, at what point in your practice, how quickly do people see results?

[Amy Morin]

So it kind of depends on what people are working on, how much time they devote to it and what their goals are. But often, like within a week, it's just that we change so slowly that we don't tend to notice it. But if you really take a moment, like at the end of every day, you just said to yourself, like, what did I do today to grow a little bit mentally stronger? And maybe you had a tough conversation, maybe you tolerated some anxiety, maybe you did some journaling when you felt bad. But just answering that question will help help you see, gee, I have some tangible evidence. And then you also look back, like one month ago, what's something I probably couldn't do that I just did today, and to really realize that so often we're making such incremental progress that we just don't recognize it. I know I could think of plenty of things that I couldn't do six months ago, five years ago especially. But they all happen so slowly that we don't tend to take the time to reflect and really notice how far we've come.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Right. I mean, I think for me and a lot of people, the biggest hurdle to men to being truly mentally strong is, you know, a belief in yourself that you have an important voice and you should speak up. It's not more so let's like speak less, I think struggle with advocating for themselves, negotiating on their own behalf, speaking up when they know something is not right. How do we start practicing that more in our day to day lives In a way that still feels safe too, because there's some risk there that, that you take right when you speak up. And it's not so simple, right, to speak up at work because maybe you're not in like a, an accepting environment or a safe place. So I want you to talk a little bit about practicing mental strength, specifically this confidence piece, while also being mindful of your environment because you don't want it to backfire either.

[Amy Morin]

You're right. And I think it's important to, to notice like the times that it's hard for us to speak up. And, and like, as a kid I was incredibly shy, hardly spoke at all. Like in class, if my friends, somebody else would speak for me, I'd take it all day long. Fast forward to being an adult. Like, I have a podcast. I gave a TEDx talk that was seen by 25 million people. I would not ask the Uber driver to turn the heat down. To this day, right? If I'm in a car, it makes no logical sense that I couldn't say, hey, it's kind of hot back here. Can you dial the heat back yet? To me that seems like shocking and yet. But the reason I figured this out, I had Elaine Lynn Herring was on my podcast and she wrote the book about unlearning silence. And she was like, you know, there's people that don't ask the Uber driver to adjust the heat. And I was like, you don't say. So I think just recognizing, like, when is it I wouldn't speak up? And why, like, what is that? Is it, is it because I don't feel safe in that situation? And then I would look for the evidence, like, all right, maybe that's true. Like the Uber driver, like, are you scared the Uber driver is going to be physically, I was gonna get angry at you and something physical might happen. Are you concerned about, you know, your safety and is there a reason you should be? Or is this just something we've made up? Like, I don't wanna be rude or I don't wanna inconvenience anybody. And I think it's really about that. Asking ourselves the question, like, if I don't speak up, well, what would it mean? If I did, well, it might mean I'm rude. Well, would that mean I was rude? If I soak up and then, like, well, what? So what? Like, let's say I do speak up and somebody thinks I'm rude. Like, what would that mean? Does it mean I'm not a good person? Like, and to just ask yourself, like, what would that mean? Just a couple of times, to get back to the layers of, like, what is it about ourselves? And it often boils down to this thing of, like, I'm not good enough. If I speak up and I say something, people judge me.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

It's fear, right? Means in those moments, there's also an underpinning of fear. So I always say, ask yourself, what am I really afraid of? And you might get the same answers. Well, I'm afraid the Uber driver's going to do something. By the way, this episode never, never being sponsored by Uber. That's fine.

[Amy Morin]

Maybe Lyft.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

So. But, like, you risk sort of the rejection. Or in other contexts, maybe it's like, if I speak up, then it's like, you know, I have a fear of losing something, losing my respect or whatever in that room. But then to your point, maybe you flip the question and say, well, imagine you didn't do this. Like, how scary could things get if you stayed silent?

What are the.

Because we don't often think about the risks to the status quo, right? Because we're living it, right?

[Amy Morin]

And we're focused on the emotion right now. Like, I'm in this meeting. I have an idea. I could share it, but people might laugh at me. So maybe I'll just stay silent.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yeah.

[Amy Morin]

And it's the fear in that moment, right? And so, like, all right, well, is the. Is the goal to get rid of my fear, or is the goal to say, I'm gonna work through my fear and I'm gonna speak up anyway, right? And if everybody laughs, like, like, okay, whatever. It's not the end of the world. We all have different ideas and different opinions. That's okay. But so often we attack a problem from the wrong angle. Like, I'm going to do what makes me feel comfortable right now. Not how do I attack this challenge in a way that may be uncomfortable but ultimately solves the problem?

[Farnoosh Torabi]

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[Amy Morin]

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[Farnoosh Torabi]

well, sticking with mental strength in the context of work and even money, you write about having the right tool at the right time. What's a mental tool people should use before making a financial career? Financial or career decision.

[Amy Morin]

So I think no matter what challenge we face, there's always a play you can run. And I love to think of it more like this. Like a coach in a game doesn't know what's going to happen next, but they have a whole playbook of plays. And if we approach life like that and challenges and just knowing there's not, like, one right solution, but it's kind of an art form, I can think, what place should I run right now? And so for somebody that's struggling with a decision, I like to flip the script. So if I said, you know, I think I'm going to go live on a sailboat because it's going to be this dreamy, lovely thing, nothing will ever go wrong. Well, flipping the script might be, you know what? Probably the roof is going to leak, I'll get seasick, and it's going to be horrible. And the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. But so often we end up polarized on one end or the other. Somebody says, hey, have you ever thought about starting a new business? No, I could never do that. I'm not the kind of person who could. Well, flip the script. Maybe you are the kind of person who could. And just by reframing those thoughts, sometimes to the polar opposite, sometimes we then say, all right, well, my first reaction isn't the only fact here. It's my opinion. But it's not necessarily destiny destined to be the only conclusion. Like, if I get an email from my boss that says, let's meet tomorrow, my first reaction might be, I'm gonna get fired. Yeah. But then if I have that thought, I could then spend the next 24 hours just in complete anxiety, imagining myself being fired. Or I could say, well, what's the opposite? Flip the script. Well, maybe I'm getting a promotion. Probably not. Probably the truth is somewhere in the middle rather than just getting a random raise. But sometimes it just reminds us that your first thought about something isn't a fact and that you have some control over how you think about it. And the evidence that you gather to figure out what's actually true.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

There's so much science behind that. You know, behavioral science and personal finance is like, we often assume that whatever financial setback we experienced will endure. Like, it's the kind of going to be like the way things will always be. So people who suffered through the great financial recession of 2008, 2009, who may have had their homes foreclosed upon, there's a chance that some of those people will believe that buying a home is always a bad idea because of that experience. And it's just something that we have to mentally kind of check it, like, recognize that this is sometimes just a human tendency. It doesn't make it right. For those of us who are kind of reeling right now from a financial setback, whether it's a job loss or stacks of debt or we just graduated from college and we have so much in student loan debt, what is a way for someone to kind of endure mentally? I don't want to even say recover right away because it takes time, but like, how to kind of of put one foot in front of the other and focus on progress as opposed to dwelling in this loss, in this quote unquote setback?

[Amy Morin]

Yeah, I would say two things. So sometimes when I see people go through some tough times, they spend a lot of time ruminating on it. Right. This is what I did wrong. This is how it could have gone differently, if only. And we know the more we ruminate and rehash the past, more likely we are to get stuck there as opposed to to problem solving and moving forward. So if somebody's ruminating a lot, I would schedule time to worry. You set aside 15 minutes a day to worry about that thing, schedule. And when you, like, expose yourself, but you give yourself a time limit where you say, okay, classic exposure therapy. Worrying's not bad. I just can't do it all the time. And I'll do this with my therapy clients. And the goal is you put it in your calendar, same time, same place. And then when you worry outside of that time, you just tell yourself it's not time to worry about that yet. I'll worry about it later. Later, and then you can delay it. So maybe my worry time is from 7 to 7:15 at night, I sit down at the kitchen table, I worry about everything. What's going to happen to the economy? Did that make that huge mistake? Is it going to crumble? Like all of these things, My time's up, I get up and I go do something else. And then when I start to worry about it again, I just say, no, it's not time to worry about that yet. I'll do that later. And research will show that you can then train your brain to contain it to just 15 minutes a day. And when people do this in my therapy office, like, they will look like the weight of the world has literally been lifted off their shoulders after about two weeks because they'll say, I can finally concentrate on what's going on in front of me. Or my brain's not always distracting me with all of these other things that I had always kind of going on in the background. So I love that one. For somebody who just says, I just can't stop worrying about something. Wow.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

And does the brain eventually go, I don't need the 15 minutes? You know, do you see that happen where it just dissipates the need to worry some people?

[Amy Morin]

It does. Where some people are like, okay, but for most people, their brain still wants time because your brain doesn't want you to get blindsided by something again. So your brain really wants to know, I'm going to make sure you're prepared of all the worst case scenarios just so you know what you're getting into. So for most people, that still works. And some people will say it shifts over time. Maybe they write in a journal instead of just sitting at the kitchen table. Or they might have a partner who says, I'll just listen to your worries. We're not going to solve anything. You just tell me everything on your mind. But for a lot of people, as long as you contain it and you keep that up, then it works.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

I read a book years ago called the Upside of Stress. As I was going through a lot of stress in my career at the time, and it was really a cloud parting moment where I was like, maybe some of the stress I'm experiencing is beneficial to me. Some of it is definitely not. What is your advice to the audience member who thinks stress is just part of the road? Right. If you're building something, if you're a high achiever, that, that, that stress is a requirement. Because I kind of want people to understand the limitations, but also the, you know, the good of it. You talk about, you know, giving yourself time limits to things, which kind of creates this sense of stress, but like in a good way, that adrenaline to get things done within a certain time period. But how do we differentiate from good versus bad stress?

[Amy Morin]

It's really our response to the things that happen. So, and we all know this when you see somebody who's like really stressed out about whether it's gonna rain tomorrow. And you're like, eh, maybe it will, maybe it won't. But it affects people differently. And to know, like, it's about my response to these things that are. That I'm facing. With that said, it often creeps up on us a little bit at a time where people are like, you know, I haven't slept well lately. I haven't really had time to eat very healthy, and I've been grabbing a lot of fast food now I can feel it in my chest. I wake up in the morning and, like, my, my shoulders are kind of tight. And it's because we're, like, stressed out and hunched over and physically tensing our muscles all day. So it's really important to just be in tune with, like, how am I doing these days? Check in with yourself. But to then not tell yourself that you're stressed beyond belief. Because what we're also seeing is people are, are like, oh, I'm so burned out. They're not burned out. They're just tired or they had a rough week. But if you talk yourself into believing that you're completely burned out, well, guess what? You then behave in a way that makes you burn out because you think, I have nothing left. I'm so depleted, I can't function. So be careful of the stories that we tell ourselves versus just telling yourself, all right, this is a temporary situation. I can manage it. I can take care of it. And if you can't, by all means talk to somebody and get some help. Help. I'll say. A lot of people come into my therapy office just, like, completely overwhelmed. And I've never had anybody say, like, you know, I wish I would have started therapy later. A lot of people are like, why didn't I come in six months ago? Why didn't I come in last year when I was so frazzled I couldn't think straight? But often people want to just keep powering through. Or they tell themselves, like, I can't right now. I have too much to do. Right. I don't have time. And there's never a convenient time to work on your mental health. But if you, if you don't invest time into it upfront, it will take the time eventually when you do say, I just can't function anymore.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yeah.

What I'm hearing from you is just the importance of self awareness, drawing lines, boundaries. What are some other healthy, intentional things we can put into our schedules, our relationships, our lives to promote mental strength? You know that example you gave of like, 15 minutes to just worry. That's brilliant. Brilliant. I'd love more things like that, especially for those of us in the audience who are struggling financially. I find often people worry a lot about the what ifs in their financial lives without really having the information that they need to say, okay, is my. Is my anxiety qualified? Very easy to get kind of wrapped up in the what ifs and make it very kind of like, detached from your actual life. Sure, anybody could lose their job tomorrow, but what is the likelihood that you will? And not only that, what is the likelihood that you would suffer through that? Maybe you do have enough in savings. Maybe your company is prepared to give you a generous severance. You have to find out these things before you allow yourself to give in to the. To the fear. What do you say to that person who wants to just be more intentional about rebuilding their strength, Creating strength in these moments.

[Amy Morin]

Yeah. So I think it boils down to sometimes just asking yourself, do I need to solve the problem or solve how I feel about the problem? And to gather some evidence. So, for example, you have a stack of bills on the table. Table. Well, it's going to be really anxiety provoking to open them up, the envelopes, right? So I'd rather go watch Netflix for an hour. And when I watch Netflix, my anxiety goes down. So if I'm not careful, I suddenly think, problem solved. But the problem's still there. So that's why it's so important sometimes to just get really focused on, all right, do I need to solve the problem or how I feel about the problem. Other people we know have huge bank accounts and they're still stressed out about money constantly. Right. They can't buy a pair of new shoes because they're like, well, somebody might need a kidney someday. So I can't spend a hundred dollars on for myself because I don't deserve it, or if I don't have it for a rainy day, it won't be there. So again, we need to say, like, is this really a problem? What is it that's coming up for me?

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Great.

[Amy Morin]

When. When I'm dealing with this. And you had mentioned boundaries. Boundaries are so important for all of our relationships, for our own mental health, for money. Something I talk about in the book is a boundary reset. Because a lot of people will say, well, I'm just not good at boundaries, or I set a boundary, but it didn't stick. And now I don't know what to do. And sometimes it just happens, like, naturally that our boundaries get kind of blurry, or you made an Exception for a while. Maybe you decided, I'm not going to loan anybody money. But then your cousin had a crisis and you happened to be in the same room when they needed 20 bucks, so you loaned them 20 bucks and before you know it they're asking you for money and you're like, I had this rule, but then I broke my own rule. So now how do I say no? And a boundary reset is just about backing up and saying, you know, I've made some mistakes. And you might have to go to the person and say, you know, I had said like I wasn't going to work after 7. Lately I've been answering emails all the time.

[Verizon Advertiser]

Time.

[Amy Morin]

I'm going to back that up. Like, here's what I'm going to do and have that conversation. Get really clear with yourself. Because what I see is a lot of people who will say over time their boundaries kind of eroded and they let it happen and then they don't know how to reel it back in. And that's really important for protecting our, our mental health, for our relationships. Sometimes to just check in and say, are there any boundaries I need to tighten? Some I've let slide things. I want to change and run a reset every now and then too.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Then what about media consumption? Because I find that this is a huge area where if we let it kind of feed us all the information all the time, no boundaries. I mean that that is like a huge switch to turn off. That can be very helpful.

[Amy Morin]

It can. I mean, we know from all the research just taking breaks from social media to not have your phone next to you when you're sleeping is great for your anxiety. There's a study where they asked people like, would you ever not sleep with your phone next to your head? And almost everybody was like, no way. I'd be so anxious because what if somebody calls at 2 in the morning and there's an emergency? Well, as part of this study, they agreed to try it. They just left their phone in the kitch while they slept when the. And they did it for 30 days when the study was over. 80% of people said, I feel so much better and I sleep so much better. I'm going to keep this going voluntarily.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

And I can turn your ringer on to like high blast if you're scared of that, you know.

[Amy Morin]

But just not having the phone in bed with you, then you don't scroll before you fall asleep. You don't then wake up and you start scrolling. Makes a big difference in our mental health. So I think we really have to be proactive about those boundaries that we set for ourselves. Don't have it at the dinner table. Take a day or two off from social media every now and then.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yes.

[Amy Morin]

Do things where you don't have access to your phone, too. If I go hiking in a remote place where I don't have phone access, I'm like, well, choice is gone. No stress there. It's not even an option to check my phone, so.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Exactly.

[Amy Morin]

I think by just being more intentional so that we're not in this heightened state of stress all the time.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Yeah. And just slow down. Fine. I do that. I tell myself all the time, just slow down.

[Verizon Advertiser]

Right.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

You know, because when you're doing. When you're trying to do too many things at once, just because you can doesn't mean you should, you know? You know, one slip of on a banana peel and everything goes to hell. Right. So I think it's important to just. That also helps with the intentionality piece. Like, if you can slow down, you have more awareness. You realize what's working, what's not. I really needed this conversation and I appreciate you writing this book, Amy. Thank you so much for coming on the show and for all the work you've been doing in this very important space. Your book is called the Mental Strength Playbook. And your previous book, 13 Things Mentally Strong People don't do, that's a series. You also speak to kids as well. And I want to shout that out. As many of us in the audience, parents, we might have it together. You know, we want to make sure we're giving our kids the right playbook as well. Thank you so much.

[Amy Morin]

Thanks for having me, Farnoosh. It's a pleasure.

[Farnoosh Torabi]

Thanks so much to Amy Morin for joining us. Her book again is called the Mental Strength Playbook.

Thanks for tuning in, and I hope your day is so money.

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