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- [00:00]
Farnoosh Torabi
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- [03:02]
Farnoosh Torabi
So money episode 1982 the joy of money in an anxious economy.
- [03:08]
Chase Sapphire Reserve Advertiser
You're listening to so Money with award winning money guru Farnoosh Torabi. Each day get a 30 minute dose of financial inspiration from the world's top business minds, authors, influencers and from Farnoosh. Your looking for ways to save on gas or double your double coupons. Sorry, you're in the wrong place. Seeking profound ways to live a richer, happier life. Welcome to SO Money.
- [03:35]
Carrie Joy Grimes
People worry that they're selfish. It's like, well, then don't be selfish. It's okay. You can make the choices that aren't selfish, right? You're not gonna steal from your family. You're not gonna do stuff that harms another person. There's no shame in being joyful about money. The joyful about the things that money can bring you. The joy of money is about learning how to be happy.
- [03:57]
Farnoosh Torabi
Hey everybody.
- [03:58]
Welcome back to SO money. You know, lately I've been thinking a
- [04:00]
lot about how many of us feel
- [04:02]
like we're failing at money. And it's not because we're irresponsible or
- [04:06]
lazy, but because the rules are harder
- [04:09]
now, the economy feels shakier and the pressure to figure it all out is just relentless. My guest today says one of the biggest problems isn't just what's happening in our bank accounts. It's the story that we carry around about ourselves. And it's this belief that we are bad at money, that we somehow missed our chance, that financial security is for other people.
- [04:30]
And honestly, I think a lot of
- [04:31]
us might hear ourselves. In this conversation, we're joined by Carrie Joy Grimes. She's a former union organizer who spent years helping workers fight for better wages and benefits while also trying to untangle her own complicated relationship with money, which included debt, shame, financial anxiety, you name it. In our conversation, we talk about why so many women particularly still avoid taking ownership of their money. How to rebuild confidence after financial mistakes, whether home ownership still makes sense, and how to separate what society tells us should make us happy from what actually does. We also talk about the inspiration behind her new book. It's called the Joy of how to do more with and feel better about your money no matter how much you have and why.
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Grimes believes financial security is not just about numbers.
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It's about feeling safer and freer and more in control of your life.
- [05:23]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Here we go.
- [05:27]
Farnoosh Torabi
Carrie Joy Grimes, welcome to Sew Money.
- [05:31]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Thank you, Farnoosh. I am so happy to be here. I have been reading your books and your columns and watching you for a long time and I'm just really, really glad to have the chance to talk.
- [05:39]
Farnoosh Torabi
Oh, that's so sweet of you to say. Well, I'm really thrilled for your work. Your. Your book is out coming out, the Joy of Money. And as we were chatting before we were recording, you have such a elevated, a light spirit. I love that about you. I think the personal financ world needs that now more than ever. Are you finding that, that you're coming out with this book and your platform, your star is rising at a time when people are really down about their money and for new reasons in some ways.
- [06:11]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Right.
- [06:12]
Farnoosh Torabi
Like, although the economy is cyclical and I don't think what we're experiencing is historically at a low point, but it is a tough time. And so to be going out in the world with a book called the Joy of Money, what are you running up against mostly?
- [06:27]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Oh yeah. You know, I think that it's a time when people I'm seeing, I assume you're seeing this too, but I'm seeing a lot more fear, anxiety, worry, concern. And it's in some cases, I mean, I think we all know wages have not kept pace with healthcare costs, education costs, childcare costs, housing costs. TVs are cheaper than they've ever been, but you can't really eat a tv,
- [06:51]
Farnoosh Torabi
who's a TV anyway?
- [06:53]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Or sleep in a tv, you know. And so I think that people are understandably, really worried about how the future looks. And that's more what I run up against. I'd be curious what you have to say, but people are like, I don't know how to do it in this economy. It feels harder and more mysterious than it ever has been. Not just cause it's so volatile, it's up and down and all over the place, but also because it feels like that's not going to end or that it's not figureoutable. And so I wrote the book the Joy of Money. If you're Gen X or older, you know, there is a few other Joy of's that I'm kind of referencing in the past. But even more than that, I wrote it and I called it that because I do think that there is a path to more people having that good life with their money. Even in these volatile times and in this moment in particular, I think I needed that. I wanted my kid to have that. She's 19 and she's becoming an adult person. And I wanted to make sure that everybody who wanted it knew that there is a path for them too.
- [07:51]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah, I want to get to more of that thesis. Tell us more though, about your comeuppance in the world of personal finance was reading. I'm not finished with your book yet, but as I'm reading it, I'm learning a lot about your family background. Right, this very hardworking American dream driven family, that of a generation where your hard work did pay off.
- [08:15]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah, that's right.
- [08:16]
Farnoosh Torabi
To some extent, more so than today, you could argue. But anyway, it kind of made you who you are. It built you. Tell us a little bit about the story behind your own personal financial journey and success.
- [08:28]
Carrie Joy Grimes
You know, I like a lot of folks, I didn't grow up with all the stuff you need to be good at. Money. I was out of my house pretty early. I was a teenager when I got kicked out of my house and I was on my own. And I had to figure a lot of things out by myself, you know, before I was really fully cooked, you could say, like before. I don't mean that the way that kids say that. You know, before, like before I was a real adult, before I had the skills or the knowledge. I had to really kind of bootstrap my way through financial problems. I had a bunch of credit card debt. I managed to get myself into college. I managed to work my way through college. I racked up a bunch of credit card debt. And then I had to solve those problems. I had to learn money and get myself out of debt and get myself into financial security. And I learned a lot along the way. I read everything I could read. I. Your books included. I've listened to everybody who I thought was smart, made my way through a lot of bad financial advisors. There's a lot of scammy MCS scammers and nonsense out there. I found that the guilt and shame trips that came from a lot of financial influencers didn't really work for me. It just made me feel worse about myself. And I might like kind of like bad diets, you know what I mean? Like, I might go for like a few weeks and then I would inevitably I would screw back up or mess up again. And so I had a journey that I think is not too dissimilar from a lot of other people in America where I figured out by doing. And then I had this really privileged set of experiences where I was a union organizer. So at the time I was figuring out my own Money, personally, I was working with thousands of people at kitchen tables and union halls and bars and workplaces all over America, figuring out how they could use their collective power to bargain for higher wages and better benefits. And I got to talk to them. I mean, really, those conversations were a lot about money and how people didn't have enough and what they needed. And it became really clear to me, both through the work I was doing myself and through all these conversations, I mean, thousands and thousands of them, that there were two problems. That the first problem was that people really didn't know what to do in the same way that I hadn't known what to do with my money, like, personally. And the second was that people didn't really see the system as anything that was fixable or navigable. You know, that the conditions in which we have jobs and go to work and pay our taxes, like that just all felt very unfixable and mysterious. And both of those things together, from where I was sitting, really added up to how people could improve their financial lives. And so I really appreciate you asking. Cause it's like a personal journey. My family worked really hard. We really believed in the American dream. I wanted to be a good mom. I wanted to own a house. I did buy a house. And I had a lot of the same setbacks regular people have. I had credit card debt. I bought a house when I didn't really have enough. Enough money for it at the time. And so I was house poor, meaning I had to like, put most of my money into just paying the roof over my head. And I was able to figure it out. And I could also see how a lot of us working together can actually change some of those circumstances.
- [11:26]
Farnoosh Torabi
You also, though, write about how you thought you were bad at money. And this may have also been a pattern in those union organizing conversations. That, yes, people didn't have the literacy maybe, and felt like the systems were broken. But also underestimating what they could actually achieve, maybe also what they were worthy of achieving. Because sometimes we have that narrative. And so how did you personally unwrite that story? And how do you recommend others do too? Because I feel like that is so foundational. It's quiet sometimes we don't realize it's happening.
- [12:06]
Carrie Joy Grimes
That's such a great way to say that. And I will tell you what I recommend, but I have read your stuff and I'd love to hear you sort of tell me back.
- [12:14]
Farnoosh Torabi
Like what?
- [12:14]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Like a lot of what I'm talking about is really summed up by the way you talk about money, confidence, so I've just had, like, another spin on that. On that. You know, I thought I was very bad at money in my house. Nobody talked about it. My parents were very religious, and there was a really gendered way that, like, men handled money and finances and women didn't, even though my mom paid all the bills, which felt very strange. But. So when I was on my own, I didn't have any information and also had this, like, kind of internal belief I was gonna be bad at it anyway. It wasn't really for me. So when I started making mistakes with my money, like overspending or not saving enough for an emergency, I just felt like that was proof that I was bad at money. And I call that, like, my money background. So I. In order for me to move from, ugh, I can't do this, I'm not worthy of it. I just feel shame. And then I avoid things. I mean, who among us hasn't seen that envelope come in the mail at some point and been like, I don't wanna look at that. I'll just put that aside. So for me, shame and anxiety translated into, like, avoiding things, which, you know, makes them wor. Cause then the problems pile up. And my money background was basically telling me, don't bother. You're not good at this. This isn't for you. You're just gonna be bad at it forever. And when I decided I really wanted to change my financial life and become financially secure, I had to. I did three things. I faced that background head on. I named it, I said, oh, here's why. I. Here's my autopilot, the narrative. I just carry around this money background. And then I said, well, that's not the one I want. I'm gonna write my own money story. And so when I started out, my money story was, I can be good at money. Now my money story is I am very good at money. But I had to fix my mind. I had to get my mind right. And I think about a lot of this is based on behavioral science and, like, coaching, you know, if you don't think you can hit that ball, you're not gonna hit that ball.
- [14:04]
Farnoosh Torabi
Right?
- [14:04]
Carrie Joy Grimes
If you don't think you can throw that ball, you're not gonna throw that ball. You have to believe that you can do those sorts of things. It's like, this isn't. It can sound a little woo woo, but it is not. This is literally the science of how.
- [14:15]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah, I mean, I tell my son this all the time because he kind of has like a very. He's 11. So, you know, for those parents or for those of you who remember being 11, it can be a very like self defeating time in your life. Your day is ruined before you even get out of bed. Oh my God, it's going to be such a hard day at school. Or oh my gosh, I'm going to fail that test. Or oh my gosh. And I'm like, you know what, what do I always tell you? What you say will happen. I'm like, if you want to have a bad day, you gotta wake up in the morning and say it's gonna be a bad day.
- [14:47]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Which is what you're doing. That's right.
- [14:50]
Farnoosh Torabi
You've, you've like, there's no room now for this day to possibly turn around.
- [14:55]
Carrie Joy Grimes
No, that's right. That's right. And, and look, and people are not, you know, there's a self protection mechanism in doing that. Like, I understand the psychological purpose of that. It's like, ugh, I stink. It's so bad. Because you're protecting yourself from the mistake or from the shame if you already admit it. It gives people, I mean, when I was doing it g some weird sense of control over what was happening. So I really understand lowering your expectations.
- [15:20]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah.
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Carrie Joy Grimes
Yes.
- [15:21]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah.
- [15:21]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Like, it's not illogical. However, it is very unhelpful. You know what I mean? And so this is the part where like facing that on and being like, is that what I want for my life? If that's the. If I'm, if I'm willing, if I want that limitation, I'll accept it. And then the money story is like, no, it's the thing you want to do. And it does take a degree of bravery to say I'm gonna aim for something bigger. But most people I meet, I mean, I've just met so many people. People are pretty brave.
- [15:49]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah.
- [15:49]
Carrie Joy Grimes
You know, they really want. Everybody I know wants things to get a little bit better. And that's the thing about money stories. It's like just a little bit better. You don't have to say, I'm gonna be the biggest, you know, the most successful human on the planet. You can just say, I can do a little bit better. And then the third thing that really helped me go from, ugh, I can't do this to honest to gosh, financial security, was learning how to pick myself up when I made mistakes. Because everyone is going to. Even today, I still, you know, like, I go to that restaurant and I, that I didn't really have in the budget and I spend that money that I really. But even today I will say, ugh, look what I overspent on my budget. I wish I hadn't done that. You know, I know I'm not alone. A lot of people make this mistake and I'm not gonna let this mistake get in the way of my goals. I know I can do better next time. It's like a literal three step I call the self compassion practice, which again is backed by a lot of science. Acknowledging the mistake and looking at it so it doesn't eat at you. Also saying you're not alone. Other people have done this before, they've recovered. And then the third piece is committing to yourself that you're going to do better. Some process by which you don't flinch when one makes mistakes. Like we all make mistakes. And being able to get back on the money horse is probably the single most important skill anybody can learn. It's not, not screwing up. I mean, ideally don't, but most of us do. And so we have to have a plan for when that happens.
- [17:16]
Farnoosh Torabi
You know, as you're speaking, I'm thinking we're, we're recognizing in some ways that the person on the receiving end of this advice wants to, wants to be in control of their money. There is a desire, right, that has to be there. But we have to realize there are many people, and mostly women than men, I would say women in relationships who do have that gender bias of like, well, he's the man, so he manages the money and I'm the woman, so I do everything else that, that there isn't even an appreciation yet for why it's important for them to have ownership over these money decisions and where the money's going. And I mean, I just had so many of these stories come to my doorstep in the last few days. Whether it's like the book I'm reading called Strangers. Have you heard of this memoir, a memoir about marriage where someone at like the highest esc echelon of money marries a guy, he leaves her and she had no idea anything about the money. Like it's, it's, it's unfathomable. This is somebody who's wealthy to begin with, who just all the financial decision making to her husband, who then ended up taking advantage of that to someone who is paycheck to paycheck.
- [18:27]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Right household.
- [18:28]
Farnoosh Torabi
Right. Who's not also got her head in the sand when it comes to money and the partner is doing all. What is your message to that woman who doesn't even feel like it's necessary because she feels Safe, actually, in knowing that there is this other person that they. She loves, that she thinks loves her back, is taking care of all the money stuff. Why does this person need to care more?
- [18:54]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Oh, gosh. Well, I'll say what I think, and I'd love to hear what you think, because I've heard some. I heard you talk on this topic, and I think you've got some real bangers too. You know, I personally. My husband and I. I'm married, we have a joint account where we each put some money that pays our. Collect our joint bills. And then I have my own account where I spend on my life, and he has his own account, so he spends on his life. And for me, it was really important because I'm responsible for my joy. I'm responsible for my joy. Nobody else can actually produce my own joy. And to me, joy is about knowing that people I love are gonna be okay tomorrow. I love to garden. I have a small garden in my backyard, and I love to sit out there and drink a Bud Light in the summertime and look at my flowers I planted and do nothing and just listen to the bees humming and the birds chirping away. That brings me joy. To me, money. Joy is about feeling safe in my body and safe in the world that the. My loved ones are okay. And then moments where I can deeply appreciate what's happening around me. And I don't believe for me, and I would argue this is likely true for most people, that giving that responsibility to somebody else makes that moment likely to happen. Now, I don't think it is optimal for most people to give all of that to somebody else to manage, because it's not really achievable, like, that moment of whatever somebody else's joy is. Maybe theirs isn't peace like mine is. Maybe it's like the thrill of a crazy experience with a lot of other people at the same time or whatever it is. But that's not something somebody else can manufacture for you. So I would argue there's like, this just kind of tactical, strategic reason, which is you can't really get to that place from somebody else. And then there's the obvious stuff. You know, I have been in some pretty hairy relationships in the past, and getting out of those was a lot harder. Would have been a lot harder had I had my finances intertwined with somebody else. Yeah. And now that I'm in this relationship, we have made some decisions where we have chosen to put our money together for a set of things. And I love knowing that I can stay with him because I love him and not because I need him. It makes our marriage and our relationship stronger, and it makes me stronger and happier as a woman.
- [21:13]
Farnoosh Torabi
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- [21:25]
Carrie Joy Grimes
This?
- [21:25]
Farnoosh Torabi
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- [25:35]
Carrie Joy Grimes
me more about what you say to people because I've heard you talk about this and I know you've heard some really crazy stories from people.
- [25:42]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah, I mean if I had a nickel for every time I heard a woman say, you know, my husband takes care of the finances and that works for us. I'm going to ask a crazy question. I'm going to go, what are you afraid of?
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Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah.
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Farnoosh Torabi
Imagine even just for a month. You were the one who not even was like managing the money but knew where the thing, knew where the money was going, how much was in your bank account.
- [26:07]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Right.
- [26:07]
Farnoosh Torabi
Could you retire at some point when you could retire? Like, why does knowing that information bother you? Because it seems like it's bothering you.
- [26:18]
Carrie Joy Grimes
That's a great way to say it.
- [26:19]
Farnoosh Torabi
We don't do things because we don't want to do them. We don't like to do them. It's ick. So you're not doing this thing. Am I supposed to think that there's a lot of joy for you in this and you're just deferring this to your spouse? Because, like, what is it about that outsourcing or that, that relinquishing of responsibility? Like, what is that really about?
- [26:41]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah, that's right.
- [26:42]
Farnoosh Torabi
And I'm sure there's gonna be lots of. Once we have maybe a glass of wine or two. Well, I'm afraid that it might emasculate my husband.
- [26:49]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah, that's right.
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Farnoosh Torabi
I get too involved. It might kind of eat away at, you know, the marriage, which is founded on a lot of traditional principles and values, which I can respect. I can get that. But not at your expense.
- [27:04]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah, that's it. And I think that's the kicker. My husband, he's very manly. He's got a black belt and this and that. He worked for law enforcement for a long time. He's. I, he, he, I. He's. It's great. He's great. Woo. I love him.
- [27:16]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah.
- [27:17]
Carrie Joy Grimes
And it doesn't. In my marriage, in our relationship, it doesn't make me find him more attractive to be dependent on him. And it doesn't make. He doesn't find me more attractive because if I were to. Yeah, I mean, you know what I mean?
- [27:35]
Farnoosh Torabi
Another question would just be, do you value your independence?
- [27:38]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Right.
- [27:39]
Farnoosh Torabi
Because if you do, then you would value. And you would see this as being an important part of achieving that and having that.
- [27:47]
Carrie Joy Grimes
And look, no, I'm not gonna yuck anybody's yum. Like, if you want to set things up in a way for you, different strokes for different folks. The thing I do think about, though, is he's more likely to die before you are. And if you have kids, do you want your kids? Walk into the world with these pract 2. And when my mom passed away in 2022, my dad had been dead for, gosh, like close to 30 years. Close to 20 years, sorry. Close to. My dad had been dead for close to 20 years. And her finances were a mess, just a mess. And she had made a bunch of choices that contributed to her early death. I really, when I look back at how she Got where she ended up, which was very little money and very sick and lots of choices. She literally didn't know how much money she had. She was operating from a place of fear and scarcity. She made a lot of choices from that place that really put her health at risk. And I really trace it back to her ceding a lot of that decision making to my dad so that when he passed away, she didn't know what to do. And I was. I wasn't home anymore. I mean, it was complicated in our family. She really, instead of having. Knowing where all the things were and having enough of a skill set that she could kind of take the reins for herself, she kind of lived this like her life just got smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller through the end of her life. And I would never wish that on anybody. You know, I really, I really. I love that you asked this question. I love that you talk about this with people. Because some degree of self responsibility and independence, I think, is what makes life better and makes relationships stronger and sets people up for, like, that, the joy of money through their whole life, not just for the part where somebody else can manage things for you.
- [29:35]
Farnoosh Torabi
Well, in your book, you structure it in a very unique way. I've not seen this done before with different levels. So money level one, money level two, all the way up to money level 10 for no. Tell us a little bit about the thinking behind that structure and how hard was it to kind of figure out the hierarchy? Because so much of our financial life, like multitasking, right? I gotta pay off my debt while I'm saving, while I'm trying to buy a house. And these are all different levels. Tell us your rationale behind that.
- [30:12]
Carrie Joy Grimes
You can tell you asked the question that tells me that you know what you're doing. Because I really just had to sweat this a little bit. And I made it the most practical way possible. And I wrote this for somebody. If you have enough money, you know, like you have infinity money, okay, if you're that rich, this is not the book for you. But if you are trying to get to financial security or figure out how to optimize the financial security that you have and you don't have infinity money, this is the book for you. And I wrote it in a way that somebody who is just starting out could use or somebody who has enough to make choices about their investments could use. And it's very. I did a lot of math about this. So the behavioral. Get your mind right first. That is the. That no matter who you are or where you are, you should start there and then budgeting, which I think we both know that's just understanding money in and money out. That the budget is the way you make choices with your money. So it's like the setup. It's a setup for all the decision making that comes next. And then the math part for me, an emergency fund is $1,000 of money that you have just in case the refrigerator breaks, your car breaks down, whatever happens, like you have just this chunk. And the reason, and this is, you're right, this is a bit of an unusual, unusual turn here. After that I pause and I say, okay, do you have a 401k match? If you do through your employer, you should max that out because the free money plus the compound interest over time is going to make you more than anything else will cost you or that you can make in other kinds of investments after that match. Then I say you got to pay down your high interest credit card debt because other than that 401k match, there's no investment you can make that's gonna make you more money than the interest you're paying on that credit card. And it is the thing, the thing that is an albatross around folks necks. After that then it really does become. And this is where I'd be curious to get your take. I recommend three to six months and what I call a life happens fund. That's where you start saving for like the, you know, in case there's like a big disruption in your income. In this economy I'm actually recommending for folks to do six to nine months. Right. Because I think the disruptions are serious. I think that it's hard to predict what's going to happen next. The economy is not like the weather. It is a thing that we can make different choices about. I think that there will come some stabilization in the future. I mean, AI is a really big curveball. And so between the current up and down and between what's coming with AI, I recommend six to nine months. And then after that I think that there is a choice that people get to make. And in, in 20, 30, 40 years ago, it was kind of like standard fare, right? You buy the house, you save to invest for retirement, off to the races. That's kind of how it works. And I think a lot of people, even folks who make significantly large amounts of money are struggling to figure out how to once they get that emergency fund and that life happens fund and their credit card paid down, the next steps are buy a house, save for kids, retirement. If you're having kids, save for your retirement and invest beyond retirement. And most people I know can't max all of those things out. And so I wrote the book in a way that gives people the information to make choices about what their priorities are. And I'll just say this one last thing. I kind of stick with a little bit of conventional wisdom here. Your retirement is the most important thing in many ways. Because if you're hoping your kids will take care of you when you're late later on, that's a time in their life when they can least afford often to take on debt or to take on additional cost, the way that kind of the math works out. And it's okay for folks if buying a house is part of retirement. I mean, I know that that's a little controversial. Most retirement folks say don't count your value of your house and your retirement, but that's just not realistic for most Americans. So I like to say think about your retirement. I always prefer maxing out tax advantage retirement accounts before saving for anything else because the benefit from that is just enormous. And then I think after that it's buy the house or invest. And I think in a lot of people, buying a house is not the no brainer it used to be. Especially if you're in a city like New York or LA or, you know, like, you could probably make more money investing than you can by buying a house and hoping equity.
- [34:25]
Farnoosh Torabi
I wanted to follow up and ask about home ownership.
- [34:28]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Right.
- [34:30]
Farnoosh Torabi
Especially right now with where interest rates are and the home prices. If you're looking at it purely from an investment perspective, I'm not sure that's right, really getting in at the lower. But you never really think about buying a home as an investment, really. You know, it's a place to live first and foremost, a place to put down some roots.
- [34:46]
Carrie Joy Grimes
But I, I wonder, because your book
- [34:48]
Farnoosh Torabi
is again, the Joy of money buying a home. Home ownership, there's no joy in it anymore for many people.
- [34:55]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Oh my gosh. Seriously?
- [34:57]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah, Especially people who bought during the pandemic. This sort of rush to home ownership, it was like a gold rush with where interest rates were. It was. And now they have what they call like these golden mortgage handcuffs. They can't sell because they'd be crazy to with a 3% or 2 and a quarter percent rate.
- [35:15]
Carrie Joy Grimes
That's right.
- [35:16]
Farnoosh Torabi
Where are they going to move to? They need to move because they've outgrown the house or the house is now getting older and they didn't anticipate the costs of like needing a new roof. And global, global warming is also destroying homes and insurance isn't covering that. So anyway, I don't have to belabor the point. My question to you is what are some of these financial decisions that many of us make because we've been, this is not only a path to financial wealth and wellness, but it's gonna make you happy too. Like, of course, homeownership, there's so much pride in that. It reduces stress because you never have to worry about renting and your rent going up. But here we are, people are miserable. So what are some of these other moves that we make that we think are financially sound, we think are gonna help us be happier, but you're finding right now it's actually not a source of happiness. And here are the other ways people are, are choosing to spend their money that actually does produce joy.
- [36:16]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah, this, this because to me, the joy of money is about having the most information and the most choices. You need the information to make the choices. You know, and I, I could not agree more that the sort of cultural push, this assumption that it's what you do is you, you graduate from high school, many of us go to college, we get married, you have kids, you buy a home. It's like, that worked for a lot of people. But in this economy, the job market is not as easy as it used to be. I have a lot of good friends who have incredibly four year degrees from incredibly prestigious schools who are looking for work right now. It's like, it's very hard to predict, like, will this expensive education that I bought or that my parents bought for me or that I paid a lot of student loans to get really convert into dollars in wages and then also taking on the burden of a home. Just. I think that one of the things I encourage people to do as you read through the book, is to really sit with all the costs for these things and then decide, is this the future that I want? Because the one thing about making big choices, like paying for a college education at a very fancy or expensive school or buying a home is that it really does limit the choices that come for you in the future. And I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do it. Like it is really about what brings you joy in your own life. And maybe that dream of homeownership has been like the thing when you were a kid. And remember we used to do those little like paper things when you would go.
- [37:47]
Farnoosh Torabi
Used to. My daughter still makes them. She's nine.
- [37:50]
Carrie Joy Grimes
She does. And then you flip the thing over and it's like, what are you gonna do?
- [37:53]
Farnoosh Torabi
It's like, yeah.
- [37:54]
Carrie Joy Grimes
You know what I mean?
- [37:54]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah.
- [37:55]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Mansion, shack. I'm like, that was apartments.
- [37:57]
Farnoosh Torabi
I've made all the choices. There's no more choices. Left, left, right.
- [38:01]
Carrie Joy Grimes
You know what I mean? And so I would think twice about buying a home right now. If you think you're going to move in a few years, I wouldn't do it. If you're not sure that you're in an industry or a job which is going to be stable enough for you to keep making like a house payment, so which means you can't move easily, I wouldn't do it. If you live in a very. In a city where it's actually you'll. The wealth, it's much easier to build wealth in New York or Los Angeles or San Francisco if you rent an apartment and then you invest like you will make more money over time. Right. In this market, likely doing those kinds of things. I would really sit with the math and the feelings about it and I would interrogate like, where are those feelings coming from? Are they about because I think I'm supposed to or is it a deep well of something I want to do? And I see the same thing about college. We just went through this with my daughter looking around at colleges and especially for those of us who make too much money for financial help and maybe not getting some merit scholarships, there's a lot of options out there. I will admit when we started looking at colleges, my daughter's a really good student. I went to Northern Illinois University. I like to joke, I went to a regional state school with a direction in its name. I don't mean to intimidate you with my cv, you know, but I got just as good an education for the workforce. There's been studies on this. And there's one school that if you go to it has a higher likelihood of lifetime earnings. And that school is Harvard. And they did not take into account the wealth of the people going into the school versus coming out. And so there's not a lot of evidence that fancy schools produce higher paying jobs or more lifetime income. So I would really think about those kinds of choices about home buying or shelling out a bunch of money for an education that's gonna cost you in student loans. I would really think about those things as like, what is the joy part? And so when my kid began looking at schools, oh man, I was like, well, let's look at all these ivies. And, and, and she was like, she had such a Good head on her shoulders. She's like, I don't want to go to a school like that, you know.
- [40:07]
Farnoosh Torabi
Wow.
- [40:08]
Carrie Joy Grimes
And I was just, you know, and she really knew what was going to. She knew what, she knew what she wanted. And I. And I'm really glad that she kind of had more of a practical bent. Yeah. You know, I keep looking at the
- [40:18]
Farnoosh Torabi
title of your book, the Joy of Money. Sounds simple to me. I feel like still there's a culture that says money is not something you want to talk about or joyful. You know, I think I was at a, I did a, I did a talk the other day at a school, a private school on the west coast, private elementary school, very wealthy. They brought me in to talk about how to teach kids about money. And again, a very wealthy family audience. So we focused more on things like how to raise kids that are, that feel a sense of generosity and if you, like, want to help and appreciation for money as opposed to, like, here's how to save for college. Because they got that covered, these families. But a parent got up and said, do you believe in giving your child money for good grades? And I said, well, I don't think there's any, you know, definitive study, if there's ever been a study on how giving your kids money for good grades leads them to become terrible people. Whatever you're worried about here, and I don't know what you're worried about, but I can guess is probably not based on any truth. I will say that as a kid, I received sometimes money, sometimes for good grades. And I said, let's think about, let's ask. And said, raise the hands. Who here is motivated by money? Okay. By the way, room full of rich people. One person raised their hand.
- [41:53]
Carrie Joy Grimes
That's fascinating.
- [41:53]
Farnoosh Torabi
That's a joke, right?
- [41:54]
Carrie Joy Grimes
So true.
- [41:55]
Farnoosh Torabi
One person. Because again, everybody could see each other. I think nobody wanted to admit that they liked money.
- [42:03]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah.
- [42:03]
Farnoosh Torabi
And I said, when you work and you do a good job at your company, how do they reward you? They give you more money, they give you a bonus. Our kids, you could argue, now this could be just my pov, but for my kids, school is their job.
- [42:21]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Right.
- [42:21]
Farnoosh Torabi
It's not sports. It's not, you know, and, and if they do work at home, that's a job and they get money for it's chores. I guess if you have that mindset, it's fine. And I guess there's a way to overdo it, but I don't think there's anything really wrong, patently wrong with, you know, giving your Kids money for, like, scoring well on a midterm, especially if they do need that motivation to improve their grades. So. So I guess back to your title, the Joy of Money. I can totally see people reading that and going, I didn't think that's how I was supposed to feel about money. Like, money's money. Money's a tool. Why should I feel joy? It's just a tool. And if I feel joy, there might be something wrong with me because that suggests that I'm a greedy person or I like money too much. You know what I mean?
- [43:11]
Carrie Joy Grimes
There are these rabbit holes that we
- [43:13]
Farnoosh Torabi
take our brains down, and I see it again, it shows up in some of these events. Do.
- [43:20]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah, we're not.
- [43:21]
Farnoosh Torabi
We don't have permission to feel a likeness.
- [43:26]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah. You know, so funny. Money. When people say, why joy? I say, well, that's what the money is for. Right? What else is the money for? The money's for the joy. Like, the money's not for itself. What are you, Scrooge McDuck and I swim around in a swimming pool full of gold coins? Like, I mean, look, I don't know. Maybe that's your joy. I'm not going to judge you unless you. You're being a jerk to get all those gold coins. But the money is for the joy. That's the point. It's just a way that we codify value so that we can go get different value out of something. It's funny. With my kiddo, it was really important to me, by hook or by crook, that she had enough. She learned at an early age how to make choices with her money. And so I am a big fan of kids having access to money and enough. Their own personal money, assuming we have enough, like, enough that they can choose what to do with it. Because the thing about money, it does not automatically confer anything. It is simply the vehicle by which things happen. And so I wanted her to learn at a very. As early as was age appropriate, what it meant to spend some money on something and then not be able to get something else. How to discern what was gonna bring her that joy. I mean, I do think that you raised such a good point, which is the skill of transferring money into joy. That is the piece I think has been lost right now.
- [44:50]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah.
- [44:51]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Money itself doesn't do it. It's like, you, okay, this might not make it to tape, but I'm gonna try something. And you can be like, girl, don't say that again.
- [45:01]
Farnoosh Torabi
Well, now it's definitely gonna make it to tape. Cause when you say, start off something like that.
- [45:05]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Like, look, having good sex requires that you know a little bit about what makes your body work. And money is the same way. You gotta know what you do with the money that brings you pleasure. Otherwise you don't get the feelings. Like, how many of us have had that tepid relationship where we couldn't quite get the stuff to work? It was too hard. And then you gotta do the work to keep your body happy when you're having a good relationship in the same way with money. So money. Money doesn't automatically bring pleasure and fun and joy. The joy of money is about learning how to take the money and transition it into the experiences or the things or the people that you want to be around that bring you those moments of joy.
- [45:52]
Farnoosh Torabi
Intentionality. Yes.
- [45:53]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And there's no shame in enjoying the things that money brings you. That is not something that I think we should be ashamed of. I think that the work of learning how your money brings you joy is the work of learning what you like, what makes you feel good. And most people. I know most people don't feel very good when they're taking something from somebody else. You know, that's the thing I always say. It's like, people worry that they're selfish. It's like, well, then don't be selfish. It's okay. You can make the choices that aren't selfish.
- [46:26]
Farnoosh Torabi
Right.
- [46:26]
Carrie Joy Grimes
You're not gonna steal from your family. You're not gonna do stuff that harms another person. There's no shame in being joyful about money. The joyful about the things that money can bring you. Because most people are pretty good at their core, and they're not gonna do the stuff. You know what? Here's another way to say it. The things that bring most people joy aren't harmful to other folks. That's the stuff that's worth being shameful about. Right. Like if what you're doing is hurting other people. Yeah. Feel some shame and guilt. That is a complete yes. Please do. But most of us, we're just trying to figure out if we've earned a night out.
- [47:00]
Farnoosh Torabi
Yeah.
- [47:01]
Carrie Joy Grimes
If we could go to that ball game and get that extra weird ball game shirt. That's like $20 more than it should be. For most of us, joy does not come in packages that are remotely vengeance. Yeah, no, that's right. That's right. For most of us, that's not what brings us joy. And I really. I love that you asked this question. I really, really want to emphasize to people that the Joy of Money is about learning how to be happy.
- [47:28]
Farnoosh Torabi
I love that. Well, Carrie Joy Grimes, thank you so much for going into all these places with me. Really, you've inspired a lot of deep thinking and deep questions on my end. So I really appreciate that. As a PODC host for 11 years, I talk about money every day. No, I really appreciate that. I really appreciate that you have brought out a book that helps to move the conversation forward and in a deeper way. And more than ever, we need this. The Joy of Money. How to do more with and feel better about your money no matter how much you have. Thank you.
- [48:02]
Carrie Joy Grimes
Thanks Parnoush. I really appreciate your time. It's a pleasure to be here.
- [48:08]
Farnoosh Torabi
Thanks so much to Kerri Jo Grimes for joining us. The Joy of Money is out next week.
- [48:12]
I'll see you back here Friday for
- [48:14]
AskFarnoosh, where we're gonna get into some
- [48:16]
of the news of the week as well as your mailback questions.
- [48:19]
Until then, I hope your day is so money.
- [48:35]
Quo / Chase Advertiser
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- [48:54]
Carrie Joy Grimes
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