← So Supernatural
So Supernatural
Introducing: Mind of a Serial Killer
00:20:18
What makes a serial killer? Mind of a Serial Killer takes you deep into the twisted minds of history’s most notorious serial killers. Every Monday, hosts Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Tristin Engels, a Clinical and Forensic Psychologist, combines gripping true crime storytelling with expert psychological analysis to answer the question - what makes a serial killer? From Jeffrey Dahmer to Ted Bundy, explore not only their chilling crimes but the dark psychology behind them. Follow Mind of a Serial Killer wherever you get your podcasts!
Loading summary
Transcript35 lines
- [00:01]
Nordstrom Ad
This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom. It's a season of wonder all the way. At Nordstrom, you'll find the best gifts for everyone you love, plus party ready looks for every occasion. It's easy with free shipping and returns in store. Order pickup and more. Shop today in stores and@nordstrom.com skip the.
- [00:18]
TireRack Ad
Waiting room Tirerack.com now offers convenient mobile tire installation in select areas. Simply shop tirerack.com for your next set of tires and at checkout choose TireRack Mobile Tire Installation. An expertly trained technician will arrive with your tires and install them on site, at home, at the office, wherever you are. You'll spend less time waiting and more time doing the things you enjoy. Tirerack.com the way tire buying should be.
- [00:46]
Austin James
Hey, it's Austin James. If you're like me, trying to live your best life while living with diabetes, you can relate to worrying if you're doing a good job managing your diabetes. I use the Freestyle Libre 3 sensor to get real time glucose readings and see the impact of every meal and activity to make better decisions. The Freestyle Libre 3 sensor can help me live life with diabetes on my own terms and it gives me more time for the things I love, like being a dad and a musician. Now this is progress. Learn more @freestylelibre us for prescription only.
- [01:13]
TireRack Ad
Safety info found @freestylelibre us.
- [01:19]
Crime House Ad
Hear that? It could be the sound of your phone dinging every time you sell a product with TikTok ads this holiday season. If you've ever thought about advertising your business on TikTok, now is the time to do it. You can drive more customers to your website, sell products right in the app, and you can even use TikTok's creative tools to easily make content content and find creators to help sell your products for you. But you have to start now. So head over to get started.tik tok.com holiday24 and drive more holiday sales today. This is Crime House.
- [02:00]
Vanessa Richardson
Everyone knows the saying, what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. But for people who suffer from painful trauma, it takes a lot of work to get to that point. Trauma, especially when it's experienced at a young age, plays a major role in shaping who we are, what we do, and why we do it. Some people are able to overcome that trauma and use their painful experiences to become a better, stronger person, but for others, it can have the opposite effect. No matter what we do to try to escape it, our personal traumas stay with us forever. For better or for worse, the human mind is fascinating, controls how we think, how we feel, how we love, and how we hate. And sometimes the mind drives us to do something truly unspeakable. When that happens, people wonder, how could someone do such a thing? Well, on this show, that's what we're going to try and answer. This is Mind of a Serial Killer a Crime House Original. Every Monday we'll be taking deep dives into the minds of history's most notorious serial killers and and violent offenders. At Crime House, we want to express our gratitude to you, our community, for making this possible. Please support us by rating, reviewing and following Mind of a Serial Killer. Wherever you get your podcasts, your feedback truly matters. And for ad free and early access to Mind of a Serial Killer plus exciting bonus content, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe now for instant access to all four episodes of our limited series on Jeffrey Dahmer I'm Vanessa Richardson and I'm a self professed true crime fanatic. I've covered serial killers and other violent crimes for years, but it's not the gory details or grisly violence that draws me into these stories, it's the people. And we're doing this show not to explore what they did, but why. And thankfully I have an expert by my side to help.
- [04:32]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I'm Dr. Tristan Engels. I'm a licensed clinical forensic psychologist and my fascination, if you want to call it that, with true crime actually runs in my family. My grandfather was the chief microanalyst of the Chicago Crime Lab. He was also a Chicago police sergeant and he's the co inventor of the Vitulo Evidence Collection Kit which we widely known as a rape kit. I was always inspired by his work and because of that I dedicated my life and my career to understand violent, serial and sexual offenders in order to help lower the risk of further crimes, which we know as recidivism. And as Vanessa takes you through our subject stories, I'll be here helping her deep dive into these killers minds as we try to understand how someone could do such horrible things.
- [05:23]
Vanessa Richardson
So today we're going to start with the first of four episodes on Jeffrey Dahmer, perhaps the world's most famous serial killer who was responsible for murdering at least 17 people in Wisconsin and Ohio from 1978 to 1991. By now you probably know the broad strokes of his death. Dismemberment, sexual assault, cannibalism. It's safe to say he was probably one of the worst people to ever live and that's putting it lightly.
- [05:53]
Dr. Tristan Engels
And in These episodes, we'll be going over all of that, but Vanessa and I will be doing something that very few people have tried before, and that's to understand his mind.
- [06:03]
Vanessa Richardson
In today's episode, we'll be exploring Jeffrey Dahmer's early life and asking the question, what makes a serial killer? Like so many of us, Jeffrey Dahmer's story really began with his parents. And before we get to know him, we have to understand who they were, their hopes, their dreams, how they saw the world and how that affected their son. Because Jeffrey Dahmer's parents played a huge role in his early life, and from what I can tell, they were not suited for parenthood. Does upbringing have an outsized effect on shaping who a person becomes?
- [06:48]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Yes. And the nature versus nurture debate has been in existence forever, and it will continue to do so because when it comes to psychology, there's so many variables to consider. For example, milestones could be met or not met based on trauma, not because of developmental delays. Oh, but one thing to really consider too is parenting styles. The parenting style really does have an effect on a child's growth and how they interact interpersonally later in life. Our caregivers are the ones that teach us how to self soothe, how to value ourselves. And of course, if we don't know how to self soothe or value ourselves, how do we know how to do that with others? So the attachment style and the parenting style also are a very significant factor when it comes to inter parental conflict and a child's development.
- [07:38]
Vanessa Richardson
Jeffrey's parents were married on August 22, 1959, when they were both 23. His dad, Lionel, was studying to get a master's degree in chemistry and put his young career ahead of everything, including his new wife. And that did not sit well with Jeffrey's mom, Joyce. When she was a child, Joyce was neglected by her alcoholic father. And as an adult, she refused to experience those same feelings again. So anytime she thought Lionel wasn't paying enough attention to her, which was pretty much always, Joyce wasn't afraid to tell him. As you might imagine, this combination didn't exactly lend itself to marital bliss. Lionel and Joyce were at each other's throats pretty much from the moment they were married. But that didn't keep them from starting a family. Within just a few days of being married, Joyce was pregnant. And nine months later, on May 21, 1960, Jeffrey Dahmer was born. For a while, Jeffrey's birth papered over a lot of Lionel and Joyce's problems. But it wouldn't Last. Before too long, they were fighting all the time again. Lionel threw himself into his studies and Joyce's emotional outbursts got even more intense. When Jeffrey was 2, they had to pick up their lives and move from Milwaukee to Ames, Iowa so Lionel could pursue a PhD in chemistry at Iowa State University. This was their second move since Jeffrey was born. Joyce had trouble adjusting to all the change, which led to even more tension at home. But little Jeffrey seemed to handle it all right. As a baby and toddler, he seemed, for lack of a better word, normal. He hit all his milestones and was by all accounts a happy little kid. But inside, was there something going on below the surface? Was his parents troubled relationship affecting him more than it seemed?
- [09:42]
Dr. Tristan Engels
It definitely was. But I do want to hit back on the milestones comment and discuss what it is when we're looking at milestones. We're looking at if a child is crawling on time, walking on time, talking on time, able to sit upright and engaging with their peers. If they do not meet those milestones, one or two, not necessarily all. We look into whether or not there is a developmental disorder there, an organic one in nature, such as cerebral palsy or autism spectrum disorder. However, autism is a spectrum and some aspects of autism show up later in life. So I just want to make that clear. But we're also looking if there was any prenatal injury. So we know that Joyce has a family history of alcoholism. She also struggled with her own substance abuse. Do we know if she used while she was pregnant with Jeffrey? That's what milestones help us with.
- [10:37]
Vanessa Richardson
That's so fascinating. All of those things go into play. So he was hitting all his milestones, but he was in that environment that was so toxic.
- [10:44]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Right. And that says a lot more about trauma in the effects of inter parental conflict on a child. A lot of research has been done about inter parental conflict over the years. A lot. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of longitudinal studies on this. But what we do know and what we have seen is that children who have prolonged exposure to inter parental conflict in the home are at a greater risk of developing anger issues, depression, anxiety and stress.
- [11:14]
Vanessa Richardson
That absolutely makes sense. So whatever impact Jeffrey's parents fighting had on him as a kid, he seemed to find comfort in animals. When he was only 18 months old, he had a pet fish and a turtle. And after they moved to Iowa, Jeffrey liked to feed a squirrel that came to his windowsill. He named him Jiffy. And according to Joyce, he was really kind and gentle with all these animals. But at the Same time, he also had a strange fascination with them that wasn't like what most animal loving kids develop. At some point in 1964, when Jeffrey was 4 years old, he found some old animal bones his father had cleared out from the crawl space under their house. Right away, he was drawn to them. He called them fiddlesticks. Of course, plenty of kids think bones and skeletons are cool, but Jeffrey's interest seemed to border on obsession. Now, whenever he played with one of his many pets, he liked to hold them and feel their bones. And in what may be the first sign of the monster he would someday become, Jeffrey liked to wonder if all these animals and their fiddlesticks all looked the same on the inside. Around that same time, Jeffrey had a traumatic experience with his own internal anatomy. When he was four years old, he needed a double hernia operation on his testicles. The experience would stay with him for life much later on, after Jeffrey's murder spree had ended and he was behind bars, he told psychologist Dr. Judith Becker that when he woke up from the operation, he was in so much pain that he thought his genitals had been removed. It definitely seems like the sort of thing that could impact the trajectory of his life. And I'm curious about his fascination with animals and their anatomies as well. Isn't it a bit of a running theme when it comes to serial killers and animal cruelty?
- [13:10]
Dr. Tristan Engels
It's definitely a pattern that we've seen with serial killers. But I also don't want to further support the myth that all children who have abused an animal become a serial killer, because it's actually quite normal. In some cases where 3 to 44% of children have abused an animal at some point, it's mostly because they're limit testing. They don't know their boundaries, and usually once they learn the extent of the harm that it can cause, they correct that behavior.
- [13:38]
Vanessa Richardson
That's fascinating. So the psychological impact of his surgery, how does that play into Jeffrey's psychology? That hernia operation when he was so young, is that powerful enough to mentally harm someone like Jeffrey Dahmer so much that it could explain how he could become such a monster?
- [13:56]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I don't think the surgery itself is something that would cause Dahmer to become a monster, because so many children have had to undergo a surgery at some point in their life, and they did not grow up to become anything like Dahmer. So I don't think it's the surgery itself. However, did Dahmer know ahead of time what was going to happen? He didn't Exactly. Have the most comforting, nurturing parents. Did they tell him what to expect? Did they have a conversation? Did he know that he'd be spending the night in a hospital? Can you imagine being his age?
- [14:32]
Vanessa Richardson
Right. The communication there does not seem like it was there at all.
- [14:36]
Dr. Tristan Engels
And if you're waking up in a hospital and you don't know that you're spending the time there and you feel abandoned, scary, scared. Yeah, you're out of your comfort zone. That can definitely have a psychological impact.
- [14:46]
Vanessa Richardson
That makes a lot of sense. So through all of this, and when Jeffrey finally did get back home, things were getting even worse. By 1966. So this would be when Jeffrey was about six years old. His mom, Joyce, was in really bad shape emotionally. She was a wreck and was taking liberal doses of antianxiety meds called Seconal and Equinil. She was so careless with them that she almost overdosed at one point. So most of the time, she was just in this sort of depressed, out of it daze. And whenever she was fully lucid, she was on a razor's edge. On the rare occasions when Jeff's dad, Lionel, was home, the two parents fought all the time. It wasn't exactly a healthy environment to raise a young child, as we've covered. And yet they were determined to try. Of course, this is back in the 1960s, and opinions on divorce were not the same as they are today. So most couples in the Dahmers situation were probably trying to stick it out, too. But Lionel and Joyce weren't just trying to stay together for Jeffrey's sake. They were doubling down on their marriage. Because around this time, they made a conscious effort to try for a second child. Whatever Jeffrey may have been feeling on the inside, on the outside, he seemed thrilled to be getting a little sibling. For maybe the first time ever, he seemed to have a genuine connection with another person. He would hold his head on Joyce's stomach and even put his hand on it so the baby would know he was there. Maybe Jeffrey was so excited because he knew deep down that he wouldn't be alone in the storm that was the Dahmer household anymore. He was desperate to have a little brother to play with. And on December 18, 1966, Jeffrey got his wish when Joyce gave birth to a baby boy. He even had the honor of choosing the name David. And for a while, everything honestly seemed to be going pretty great. Lionel finally finished his school and got a job as a chemist with a company in Ohio. And after a couple years of bouncing between rental houses, Lionel and Joyce finally Bought the house of their dreams in a small Ohio town called Bath. After living in six different houses since they were married, it seemed like the family was finally settled. The new house was a big ranch style home located on nearly two acres of secluded wooded land. Joyce got the peace and quiet she'd been yearning for, and Jeffrey had his very own private forest to explore. He even started making friends with some of the local boys, going out to play with them in the woods and sitting with them at school. It seemed like the Dahmer family's troubles were behind them. But nothing lasts forever. Sometime around 1970, so again, when Jeffrey was about 10 years old, Joyce's health hit the proverbial wall. She spent most of the day in bed and by this point was taking up to eight anti anxiety pills per day on top of other medication like laxatives and sleeping pills. Eventually it got so bad that she had to go to the hospital where she spent a month in the psychiatric ward. It was too much for young Jeffrey to handle. For his entire life, his mother's mental health had been a dark storm with only brief moments of sunlight. He'd never seen her truly happy. And for that he may have blamed himself. At least that's what Brian Masters, the author of the Shrine of Jeffrey Dahmer, believes.
- [18:27]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I think also with inter parental conflict, a lot of times the conflict is regarding how to parent the child. And so from a child's perspective, they're looking at it as if they're the cause of the problem. They're not able to really see that the problem exists beyond them. And because there probably was a lot of projection of blame happening in the household as to why Joyce was going through all of these struggles, it sounds like she was abusing her medication. And those classification of medications are highly addictive and they could be deadly if they're dependent on it and withdrawal without detox. So there's a lot going on there that I think as a child seeing.
- [19:11]
Vanessa Richardson
Yeah, I mean, what kind of effect does that have on a child? To see your mom who has struggled your entire life, you know, to go to the hospital and you think it's because of you.
- [19:21]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Right. It's hard not to see that as a child unless you have parents who are nurturing, who are authoritative, when they sit you down, they're warm, they tell you, hey, this is, we're arguing about this, but you are not to blame. That doesn't happen in the Dahmer household.
- [19:37]
Vanessa Richardson
Not at all. There's no communication there at all. And what kind of long term psychological effects do you think that has on a child who believes they are the ones responsible for their parents difficulties, Especially in this case, Jeffrey Dahmer's parents being so volatile?
- [19:53]
Dr. Tristan Engels
I think in Jeffrey Dahmer's case specifically, there's a lot of insecure attachment happening, a lot of broken attachments with his mother, being in and out of psychiatric facilities or hospitals. I think that alone can create a fear of rejection, a fear of abandonment that when Jeffrey becomes an adult, will probably be the forefront of all of his interpersonal connections, this fear of rejection and abandonment.
- [20:18]
Vanessa Richardson
So expand on that a little bit. What would that mean for Jeffrey as an adult?
- [20:23]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Well, since Jeffrey was constantly seeking and needing nurturance in his home, but was not receiving it from his parents and instead was often the center of their conflict, as an adult, Jeffrey is going to be very afraid of rejection and abandonment. He's going to be a lot needier in his personal relationships because he's still seeking that need of nurturance that he did not get. But with Jeffrey, what he's learned is that any relationship comes with the potential of abandonment and rejection. And I think that plays out not only in his home growing up, but also with his peers. And the rejection of your peers on top of the rejection from your parents really leads to some adverse interpersonal patterns when you're an adult.
- [21:11]
Vanessa Richardson
Absolutely. That's all he's seen. So obviously, even though Joyce's struggles definitely weren't Jeffrey's fault, he may have clearly believed they were. But at least immediately, he didn't lash out or lose control. Instead, he retreated into himself, cutting himself off from the world. He felt like the less he interacted with the world, the fewer problems he'd cause. Which speaks to exactly what you just said, Dr. Engels. So Jeffrey became completely, completely detached, refusing to truly engage with anyone or anything around him. He was unmoored from society with nobody to bring him back into it. And from that point on, any light or life Jeffrey Dahmer showed was completely and utterly extinguished.
- [22:08]
Crime House Ad
Hear that? It could be the sound of your phone dinging every time you sell a product with TikTok ads this holiday season. If you've ever thought about advertising your business on TikTok, now is the time to do it. You can drive more customers to your website, sell products right in the app, and you can even use TikTok's creative tools to easily make content and find creators to help sell your products for you. But you have to start now. So head over to getstarted.TikTok. and drive. More holiday sales today.
- [22:36]
Dr. Tristan Engels
This lasagna was so cheesy, my plate was filled with saucy slices. Then a flimsy store brand plate.
- [22:44]
Crime House Ad
No, no, no, no.
- [22:45]
Dr. Tristan Engels
Ruined it.
- [22:46]
Vanessa Richardson
Next time, get Dixie Ultra plates three times stronger than the leading store brand. 10 inch paper plate. Dixie, make it right.