THE UNKNOWN: The Third Man Factor

Summary

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So Supernatural – THE UNKNOWN: The Third Man Factor

Podcast: So Supernatural
Hosts: Yvette Gentile & Racha Pecorero
Guest/Commentary: Ashley Flowers (intro), John Geiger (case study)
Date: September 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the mysterious phenomenon known as "The Third Man Factor": the experience reported by people in life-or-death situations of being aided or accompanied by an unseen presence they interpret as a guardian angel, spirit, or psychological coping mechanism. Through true accounts from explorers, astronauts, accident survivors, and the hosts' own experiences, Yvette and Racha ponder whether these experiences are spiritual, supernatural, or purely psychological.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

What Is the Third Man Factor? (01:47–03:43)

• Ashley Flowers introduces the concept: people in extreme situations reporting the presence of a "third man"—a guiding force, sometimes felt, sometimes heard or even seen.
  • “The people who report it the most are those in high stakes situations. They say that when all hope is lost, another voice or person appeared to them and guided them to safety. The stories are nothing short of a miracle.” (01:47)
• The hosts clarify it's not always a religious experience; sometimes it's interpreted as faith in the universe, fate, or even manifestation for psychological support.

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The Shackleton Expedition: Origins of the Phenomenon (05:29–14:38)

• Ernest Shackleton’s 1914 Antarctic ordeal is recounted in detail:
  • The expedition gets stranded, and three members—including Shackleton—make a perilous journey across unmapped mountains to save their crew.
  • All three independently report the sense of an additional, invisible companion during their survival march:
    • Yvette: “He can't shake that feeling that there's some kind of invisible presence here…almost like a spiritual guide.” (13:00)
    • Later, Frank Worsley admits: “Boss, I had a curious feeling on the march that there was another person with us.” (14:38)
  • T.S. Eliot later immortalizes the phenomenon in his epic poem The Waste Land, referring to "the third who walks always beside you" (18:19), thus naming the phenomenon.

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Recurring Reports and Expansive Cases (19:06–22:55)

• John Geiger, historian and author, revisits the Shackleton story and correlates it with his own childhood experience of a "third man" while in danger from a rattlesnake.
  • Experiences are often accompanied by a profound sense of calm and guidance.
• The phenomenon is global, including stories from explorers, soldiers, climbers, astronauts, and regular people.
• Racha’s personal story: narrowly avoiding a serious fall at the Lincoln Memorial after feeling an unseen hand save her, which she attributes to her late mother:
  • “I tripped and I was about to fall all the way down the stairs, but I physically felt a hand pull onto my back and I ended up being physically okay.” (21:34)

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Classic Cases & New Examples (23:13–30:48)

• Everest Climber Frank Smythe (1933):

  • Near the summit, Smythe reports the strong compulsion to share his rations with a companion—only to recall he was alone. This unseen presence gave him the strength to return safely.

• Astronaut Jerry Linenger (1997):

  • During a tense and potentially fatal mission aboard the Russian Mir space station, Linenger is visited by the presence of his deceased father on the treadmill:
    • “He has an intense gut feeling that tells him the Newcomer is his father…He says, 'I’m proud of you…You made it. Way to go.' And as soon as his dad stops talking, Jerry feels like a literal weight is lifted off his shoulders.” (27:44)

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The Third Man in Traumatic Modern History: 9/11 (33:51–38:21)

• Ron DeFrancesco, a World Trade Center survivor, recounts being guided by a male voice and presence through fire and debris to safety—possibly as the last person to leave the South Tower alive:
  • “Ron hears a male voice talking to him. It says, ‘Get up. Hey, you can do this.’ … He senses someone else lifting him up and holding him.” (36:03)
  • Ron believes this was an angel sent by God, but mental health professionals point to possible psychological coping mechanisms.

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Psychological vs. Supernatural Explanations (38:21–44:17)

• The hosts discuss scientific theories: extreme stress, exhaustion, deprivation, or monotonous activity can incite hallucinations or alter perception as a survival mechanism.
  • “The gist is that if your body is shutting down, it's only natural that your perception of reality will start going haywire.” (38:21)
• But they note the limitations of these theories, especially in cases with multiple witnesses (e.g., Shackleton, Harry Stoker in WWI):
  • “If this was all a hallucination, only one person would have noticed it, but they all sensed it at the same time, and they all agreed it disappeared at the exact moment they were no longer in danger.” (43:45)

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Spiritual and Cultural Perspectives (44:17–47:32)

• Many third man accounts are interpreted as encounters with guardian angels, supported by common religious beliefs in intermediaries between humans and the divine (Christianity, Judaism, Islam).
• Other theories posit that deceased loved ones can become guides, as with astronaut Linenger and pilot Edith Stearns, who heard the voice of a high school friend warning her away from disaster.

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Therapeutic Applications & Conclusions (48:50–49:37)

• Contemporary therapists sometimes use the idea of an imagined supportive presence, inspired by the third man factor, to help trauma survivors.
  • “The idea is that if someone has gone through something horrible, they feel better if they imagine an invisible presence with them keeping them company.” (48:50)
• The hosts personally draw comfort from believing their late mother remains their guardian.
  • Yvette: “When we’re having a hard day… I always envision that mom is like standing right next to us.” (49:34)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Ashley Flowers: “It’s happened so many times, there’s even a name for it. It’s called the third man factor.” (02:42)
• Yvette Gentile: “Faith can have its benefits. And to be clear, when I say the word faith, I don’t automatically mean religious faith…I believe that we all have to have faith in ourself or in the universe.” (04:43)
• Racha Pecorero: “Now she’s ours.” (on their mother as a guardian angel) (44:43)
• Racha: “Maybe, just maybe, it’s not important for us to understand how the third man factor works. Just that it seemingly does.” (49:37)

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Notable Timestamps

• 01:47 Introduction to the Third Man Factor and guardian angels (Ashley Flowers)
• 05:29–14:38 The full story of Shackleton’s Antarctic ordeal and the original third man experience
• 19:06 Historian John Geiger’s personal “third man” experience and quest for understanding
• 21:34 Racha’s Lincoln Memorial “guardian hand” anecdote
• 26:53 Everest climber Frank Smythe’s account
• 27:44 Astronaut Jerry Linenger’s visitation from his late father
• 33:51–38:21 Ron DeFrancesco’s survival of 9/11 aided by an unseen presence
• 38:21–44:17 Discussion of scientific/psychological vs. spiritual interpretations
• 44:17–48:50 Guardian angels and supernatural interpretations, further case examples
• 48:50–49:37 Therapeutic use of the idea and the hosts’ personal comfort

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Conclusion

The Third Man Factor remains an enduring mystery bridging the realms of psychology, spirituality, and the supernatural. Whether a well-documented survival response, a guardian angel, or a comforting cultural narrative, its stories offer hope and awe. For Yvette, Racha, and many survivors, the message is one of comfort—when facing the impossible, we might not be as alone as we think.

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Transcript

[Yvette Gentile]

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[Yvette Gentile]

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[Racha Pecorero]

Can I take your order, miss?

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[Ashley Flowers]

Have you ever been in a situation where you thought, wow, that was really lucky, like, maybe you were driving and missed getting into a car accident by like a centimeter. Or maybe you left somewhere seconds before something terrible happened. Some people might say you have a guardian angel looking over you. Someone from another realm, maybe a relative or a lost pet that protects you and keeps you safe. Now, sure, that might just be wishful thinking. Except there are some people who have actually interacted with their guardian angel before, especially in really grueling life or death situations. It's happened so many times, there's even a name for it. It's called the third man factor. The people who report it the most are those in high stakes situations. They say that when all hope is lost, another voice or person appeared to them and guided them to safety. The stories are nothing short of a miracle. But the question is, could this be some psychological coping mechanism in times of high stress? Or is it that when we are so close to death, we actually can make contact with the other side? I'M Ashley Flowers, and this is so supernatural.

[Yvette Gentile]

Welcome back. I'm Yvette Gentile.

[Racha Pecorero]

And I'm her sister, Racha Pecorero. Today we are talking about a phenomenon known as the Third Man Factor. And I am super excited to talk about this topic because it could be the best evidence that guardian angels really do exist. And now, since we're sisters, Yvette, I know what you're going to say, but I don't think our listeners know. Do you believe in guardian angels?

[Yvette Gentile]

I absolutely 100% believe in Guardian angels. And I think I even talked about it. I mean, we've talked about it many times, but when we did our bonus episode, I talked about my grandfather, who was my guardian angel, who was guiding me. Remember when I was 3 years old and I was thrown out of the house? And of course, you know, the biggest, most beautiful light in our life was our mother, who is definitely guiding us every step of the way on this journey.

[Racha Pecorero]

Absolutely.

[Yvette Gentile]

Faith can have its benefits. And to be clear, when I say the word faith, I don't automatically mean religious faith. I believe that we all have to have faith in ourself or in the universe. I mean, I say that all the time. You know, whatever you want, put it out into the universe, you know, make.

[Racha Pecorero]

It happen, manifest it.

[Yvette Gentile]

Right, manifest it. Because as we all know, the world can be a lonely place if you feel like you have to get through it all on your own with no support. But if you have someone or something else to believe in, whether it be your community, fate, or even just your own ability to turn things around, it makes it that much easier to just get through each day.

[Racha Pecorero]

And I absolutely agree. Let's be honest, if you're going through a rough time, it can be comforting to think that there's maybe a higher power or a guardian angel or something looking out for you. It could be God, your ancestors, your kupuna, or karma, whatever you call it. It's nice to think that there's something strong and magical watching your back, especially when you're about to do something incredibly risky or dangerous. Which was definitely the case for an Anglo Irish explorer named Ernest Shackleton, who, in the year 1914, set out on a mission to break a world record. Now, Ernest comes from a well connected family, which means he has the means to raise money, travel the world and go on adventures. At this point, Antarctica is largely unexplored and no one has ever walked from one side of the continent to the other. So he wants to be the first person to do it with a team. Of course, Ernest decides to make the journey in the summer when it's warmer and the trek will be less dangerous. And since Antarctica is in the Southern hemisphere, summer happens there around November, December, and January. His hope is that by then, Antarctica will be a bit less cold, the ice will be thawed, and there won't be anything standing in their way. But he's made a terrible miscalculation. 1914-1915 is an unusually cold summer. It never gets above freezing, and his ship never actually makes it to land. Instead, it gets stuck in ice on their way to Antarctica. It's a good thing that his vessel is loaded up with a ton of supplies and plenty of food, because they get trapped in January and they're stuck there for 10 more months. On October 27, 1915, Ernest accepts that he's not going to make his walk across the ice, and he's not going to get the vessel free either. Instead, he and his crew finally decide to abandon ship. They unload all the supplies they have left, fill up their lifeboats, and make a long, slow journey toward a place called Elephant Island.

[Yvette Gentile]

So Elephant island is roughly 60 miles away, right between Antarctica and the southern tip of Africa. But because of the bad weather conditions, it takes five more months for the men to make it there. They alternate between marching across big stretches of ice, dragging their boats behind them, and actually rowing along. Once the men arrive on Elephant island in April of 1916, they catch some small animals to eat, and they set up a camp near fresh water. But they're not out of the woods yet. Elephant island is uninhabited, so it's not like there's anyone here that they can ask for help. The nearest human settlement is on another island called South Georgia. A bunch of whalers live there when they're not at sea. The problem is that South Georgia is nearly 700 miles away, and the seas between Elephant island and the whaling town are choppy and extremely difficult to navigate. It would be incredibly challenging for Ernest's crew to make it the whole way there in their dinky little lifeboats.

[Racha Pecorero]

On the other hand, if they stay here and wait for rescue, they could die before anyone finds them. Ernest feels like he has only one option. He's going to send one boat loaded with just six men across the ocean toward South Georgia. If they make it to the island, they can tell the whalers what's happening and they can send a rescue vessel. If they don't make it, well, at least he'll only lose six men and not his entire crew of 28. Now Ernest is a good captain. He's not going to just sit around while others risk their lives. So he says he'll be one of the six to take the lifeboat, and five other brave men join him. They set off at the end of April, and over the next 17 days, they deal with freezing cold conditions, storms at sea, and more patches of ice that block their route. They come dangerously close to running out of water. They ration what little they have and still end up severely dehydrated. But finally, in early May, they make it to South Georgia alive.

[Yvette Gentile]

The mission is a success, with one small issue. When they land on the island, they're not anywhere near the whaling station. They're on the wrong shore, 24 miles away from their destination. And even worse, they land right as a horrible storm is whipping up, meaning it's too dangerous for them to even go back into the boat and keep rowing. Their only option is to make their way across South Georgia by foot with very limited food and water. And if that's not bad enough, they have to journey through an entire mountain range that has never been explored.

[Racha Pecorero]

Once again, Ernest decides there's no reason for his entire crew to put their lives on the line. He says that just three men, including himself, are going to try and cross the mountains and get to town. The other three will stay here on shore. It sounds like there must be a stream or lake nearby because the men on the beach now have plenty of water and wild birds to eat. So in the early hours of the morning on May 19, 1916, Ernest sets out with two companions, Commander Frank Worsley and Second Officer Tom Crean. None of the men have climbing equipment and they are scrambling over steep, icy cliffs. There's no safe place to camp and they don't have tents or sleeping bags anyway, which basically means that they'll freeze to death if they stop for too long. So the three men walk for 26 hours straight. They only take one five minute break the entire journey. As you can imagine, it's exhausting. But each time Ernest thinks about giving up or losing hope, he looks at the two men who are with him and he realizes that he can't let them down. Except every now and then, he gets this weird sensation that the three of them are not alone. Sometimes it almost seems like a religious experience. Ernest is a Christian, and he thinks he can actually feel God himself pouring out love, guidance and help. And there are also times where it feels like there's a fourth person marching right alongside him and his companions.

[Yvette Gentile]

To be clear, he's not Hallucinating, he doesn't see anyone else. He is fully aware that there are three of them total, counting himself. But he can't shake that feeling that there's some kind of invisible presence here. And this fourth entity, whatever it is, I guess it seems friendly. Ernest never says much about it publicly, so I know this description is very vague, but it sounds like he thinks the fourth person is there to support him, almost like a spiritual guide.

[Racha Pecorero]

Now when Ernest gets this feeling, he keeps it to himself. He doesn't want Frank or Tom to think he's becoming delirious. Instead, he keeps walking in silence, hoping he'll get to his destination soon. Finally, at about 6:30 in the morning, after 28 hours of walking, Ernest hears the distinct sounds of a ship's horn in the distance. A little while later, Tom and Frank admit that they hear it too. I mean, I have to imagine. They break into an excited run as they realize they're getting closer. Sure enough, they make it to town. Later that morning, they're able to tell their story to the local whalers, and before you know it, rescue ships are on their way to pick up the three men on the other side of South Georgia. Meanwhile, another team heads to Elephant island for the rest of the crew, in other words, Ernest, Tom and Frank have saved the day.

[Yvette Gentile]

But here's where things start to get wild. About three weeks go by and one night, Ernest is talking with Frank. You know, having a one on one conversation. And completely out of the blue, without any lead up, Frank says, boss, I had a curious feeling on the march that there was another person with us. Ernest is stunned to hear this because remember, he had the exact same sensation, but he kept it to himself, thinking maybe he was delirious. A little while later, Tom also talks to Ernest and he says the exact same thing. That he too felt like there was a fourth person crossing the mountains with them. Meaning all three men sensed the same thing.

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[Yvette Gentile]

All right, unk. Welcome to McDonald's.

[Racha Pecorero]

Can I take your order, miss?

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[Racha Pecorero]

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[Yvette Gentile]

All of this talk goes on to inspire the very famous poet T.S. eliot. In 1922 he writes a verse based on earnest experience and he decides to cut a character to make the story easier to follow. It makes it sound like there were only two men on Ernest's expedition and the strange non physical presence was a third man. That poem is why the phenomenon soon comes to be known as the third man factor.

[Racha Pecorero]

So everyone's talking about this for a while, but eventually the news cycle moves on. Within a few years, Ernest and his supposed third man are all but forgotten.

[Yvette Gentile]

That is until a historian and nonfiction writer named John Geiger reads Ernest's autobiography in the mid 2000s. He gets to the part about Ernest, Tom and Frank crossing the mountains and how they all sense their quote unquote third man. And this story really stands out to him because he's encountered a third man too. It happened when John was just seven years old. He was hiking with his father when he heard a distinct noise coming from some nearby rocks. It was a rattlesnake and it was angry and John didn't know what to do. He thought that if he tried to get past the snake or back away from it, the animal would bite him. So he just froze. And then this weird sensation came over him. John had what sounds like an out of body experience where suddenly he seemed to be looking at himself, his father, and the snake from above. That's when he saw that he and his father weren't alone. There was a third man standing with them. Now, unfortunately, John never said what the third person looked like or what they were doing. All I know is that the new person helped John feel calm and collected for just a second. And that was all he needed until his father picked him up and pulled him away to safety, out of the snakes striking distance. And once they were out of danger, the sensation stopped. John was back in his own body and the third man had disappeared. John also couldn't fully articulate what he'd sensed. It felt so impossible that he just assumed he must have imagined the whole situation. And you know what? He kept it to himself for years. Except now, as John is sitting here reading Ernest's autobiography, all he can think is, hey, I am not the only one who's been through this. Maybe I wasn't imagining things after all. Maybe there's something to this phenomenon. So he starts researching and he finds tons of examples of other people also interacting with this entity.

[Racha Pecorero]

He notices certain recurring themes too, like that the third man tends to appear to people who are in dangerous or stressful situations, like how Ernest and his team were literally fighting for their lives. This unknown entity almost always offers comfort and guidance, sometimes even physically helping people. There are tons of reports of people falling down just to feel unseen hands pick them back up. This actually happened to me in 2019 when Yvette, my wife and daughter and I were all at the Lincoln memorial in Washington D.C. they were ahead of me and I was walking down the stairs and my pants were very long. Like I always like to wear long pants. Like the graceful person I am. I tripped and I was about to fall all the way down the stairs, but I physically felt a hand pull onto my back and I ended up being physically okay. And I called ahead to Yvette and Vanna and Leilani and said, oh my God, did you guys just see that? I almost just fell down the stairs. And Leilani said, I think it was Grandma. Do you remember that, Yvette?

[Yvette Gentile]

No, I don't remember that actually happening because like you said, we were ahead of you, you know, and you do tend to be clumsy. So I 100% believe that you know, since you didn't hurt yourself, it definitely probably was mom saving the day for sure.

[Racha Pecorero]

While I didn't see anything or anyone during my experience, in some cases, people do report seeing a physical third man. Sometimes it resembles someone they know. Other times it's a stranger. However, most of the time, the person just senses a presence without actually seeing anyone. And the figure usually vanishes just as soon as the crisis is over. Like how John stopped receiving his third man once he got away from the snake. And how Ernest only felt his until they reached the whaling village. Take this story from 1933. So it's about 15 years after the doomed Antarctic expedition. On June 1st of that year, two men are trying to climb Mount Everest. Their names are Frank Smythe and Eric Shipton. And if they can make it to the summit, they'll be the first people to ever do so. The problem is that Frank and Eric are not prepared for this trip. But how could they be? They're crossing uncharted territory. They have no way of knowing how difficult the climb can get. They don't have enough food. They didn't bring enough oxygen tanks. And they're not taking enough breaks or sleeping well. So they're exhausted on top of everything else. Eventually, it gets to be too much for Eric. One day, midway through their trek, he sits down and says he cannot go on another step. Frank should push forward without him. So that's exactly what Frank does. He climbs and climbs until he's just 1,000ft shy of the summit. The problem is that those last 1,000ft are especially steep and challenging. And Frank is at his limit, literally. His goal is about three football fields away. But he can't bring himself to go any further. He has to give up. With the peak just out of reach, Frank sits down to rest and get something to eat. But then this weird thought pops into his head. It says he shouldn't finish all of his rations for the day. He should share them with his companion. Now, a second later, Frank's like, wait, what? I don't have a companion. He left Eric, and there's no one else with him. And yet he still can't shake the feeling that someone's sitting beside him, keeping him company. Each time he thinks about this newcomer, Frank gets this boost of energy. Like, now that he's not alone anymore, he has the will and the capability to keep moving. To be clear, Frank, Frank still doesn't make it to the summit. But he does gather enough energy to climb back down to where he left Eric behind. The two reunite and Then go back to their tent. The weird thing is that as soon as Frank has Eric by his side again. The third man just disappears. Frank can't sense him anymore. Almost like he doesn't need that companion now that he and Eric are together. Now, obviously, that Everest expedition doesn't work out the way that they'd hoped. But Frank does get closer to the top than anyone else had before. And, of course, they both survive, thanks in part to this mysterious companion's help.

[Yvette Gentile]

But we don't want to make it sound like the third man only appears during long hikes or in frozen wastelands. It can show up anywhere, apparently even in space. On January 12, 1997, an American astronaut reports for duty On a Russian space station called Mir. His name is Jerry Leininger, and he's a trained doctor. He's going to spend the next five months or so. Treating the other astronauts on board. The problem is that Mir is an old space station. It's starting to break down. And a lot of the equipment on board. The equipment that keeps everyone safe and alive, keeps malfunctioning. That includes the machines that generate clean, breathable oxygen. And to be clear, it's not like everyone instantly dies when that happens. But if it's not fixed fast enough, the air on board the station can get thin. And people can have a hard time breathing. The heater air conditioner also glitches. At one point, it leaks toxic fumes. And the station Temperature climbs to 90 degrees Fahrenheit. Another time, a fire breaks out on board. Even after the astronauts put it out, there's so much thick smoke that people can't even see their own hands. So it's just one crisis after another. And at a certain point in the mission, Jerry, he just wants to go home. He feels like he's living on a death trap. And he's physically uncomfortable all of the time. But it's not like he can just quit his job and drive away, Given that he, you know, he's all the way out in space. He's literally stuck. Everything feels hopeless to him. And Jerry can tell that his mental health is taking a turn for the worse. And with every day that he spends on Mir, he feels more and more like he's going to have a serious emotional crisis. There's only one thing he can do to stay calm, and that's work out. When Jerry's jogging, he works off some of that stress, and he feels a bit better. So one day he's on the treadmill. When all of a sudden, he, Jerry, senses a presence behind him. He doesn't want to stop his run, so he doesn't turn around to see who it is. But on some level, he knows he doesn't have to see the figure to know their identity. He has an intense gut feeling that tells him the Newcomer is his father, who, for the record, isn't an astronaut, isn't stationed on Mirror, and has been dead for the past seven years. In other words, this is impossible. But as soon as he realizes it's his father, Jerry also hears the Newcomer speak, and he has his dad's voice. He says, I'm proud of you. You've always wanted to be an astronaut. You made it. Way to go. And as soon as his dad stops talking, Jerry feels like a literal weight is lifted off his shoulders. All of the stress and the pressure of life on the station just melts away. He has to get through a few more weeks before he can come back home to Earth. But during that time, Jerry is a completely different man. He feels optimistic. He feels hopeful. Each time that old fear and depression comes back. So does his father.

[Racha Pecorero]

That is such a beautiful story. But not every Third Man Factor account is so heartwarming and optimistic, because this entity has appeared during some of history's most traumatic moments, including 911.

[Yvette Gentile]

Whether you're.

[Racha Pecorero]

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[Racha Pecorero]

The book includes this account from a bank employee named Ron DeFrancesco. In September of 2001, he's working in the South Tower of New York City's World Trade Center. He's there on the morning of September 11th and just after 8:45am he hears a loud crash. When he looks out the window, he sees smoke pouring from the other tower, which has been hit by a plane. Alarms start going off, telling the workers in Ron's building to evacuate. But Ron, for whatever reason, disregards the orders and just keeps on working. Which means he's still at his desk on the 84th floor just a few minutes later. But he decides to take a quick break and see what's going on. So he gets up and walks toward the elevators.

[Yvette Gentile]

It's a decision that saves his life. As he's waiting for the elevator, a plane careens into his building. It destroys his desk and instantly kills everyone who'd been working just a few feet away. The impact is hard enough to throw him onto the ground and when he gets up again, he knows he has to find another way out. So he heads for the stairwell. It's already full of other office workers and a lot of them are panicking, especially once word gets out that they can't get to the ground floor from these stairs. The stairs are filled with debris, some of it is on fire and the smoke is going to choke them. Ron doesn't know what to do, so he tries going back up in the hope that he can cross the building to another, safer stairwell. But that way is blocked too. The smoke is getting thicker and Ron can't breathe. He can't even keep track of what floor he's on anymore. He thinks it's somewhere around the 79th or the 80th and everything feels hopeless. So he gives up. He lays down on the ground and just waits to die.

[Racha Pecorero]

But then Ron hears a male voice talking to him. It says, get up. Hey, you can do this. The problem is that Ron is too exhausted to stand anymore. He just wants to stay there on the floor. But he senses someone else lifting him up and holding him. And while he can't explain it, he finds himself back up on his feet. The weird thing is that Ron can't see who's doing this or who he's talking to. It's like they're invisible. But in the heat of the moment, Ron doesn't want to waste time investigating. Instead, he lets the strange man show him the way to safety. And Ron has a hard time explaining how exactly the figure does that. He doesn't touch Ron or give him verbal directions, but somehow Ron just knows where to go. And he senses that he's getting this information from the invisible man. They end up walking back down the stairs. Eventually, he descends to find a roaring fire right there in the stairwell. Every instinct in Ron's body tells him to run away from the blaze, but he can also feel the other figure guiding him to walk through the flames. So that's exactly what Ron does. He suffers from some minor burns, but no serious injuries. And before he knows it, he's below the fire and out of immediate danger. The third man stays with Ron until he makes it down to the 76th floor. And that's when he just vanishes. But it's okay, because the rest of the walk down is clear and safe. Ron makes it out of the building right before it collapses. Some sources say he's the last survivor to ever make it out of the south tower. When he talks about his experience later, he says he knows who his third man was, not by name or anything like that, but he's confident that it was an angel sent by God.

[Yvette Gentile]

Not everyone agrees with Ron's take, though. In fact, some mental health professionals believe that the third man factor is purely a psychological quirk. The idea is that when you're in a life or death situation and you feel like you can't go on, your subconscious mind will create hallucinations. They encourage you to keep going. It's basically just our brain's way of trying to keep itself alive. And there could be a biological element to it as well. A lot of people experience the third man factor when they're starving, exhausted, and oxygen deprived. Unfortunately, there hasn't been a lot of research into the third man factor, so it's hard to get too detailed about how exactly this all works. But the gist is that if your body is shutting down, it's only natural that your perception of reality will start going haywire. And I will say there's also evidence that hallucinations are more common when you're doing something monotonous. The idea being that if you can't focus anymore on walking across an empty plane or jogging on a treadmill or whatever, your subconscious mind will come up with a way to mix things up. And it's so interesting that so many reports are from people who have been hiking, marching, or walking for days or weeks on end.

[Racha Pecorero]

But there are so many exceptions to that rule. Like Ron DeFrancesco, who was in the burning South Tower for less than an hour before he saw the third man. Plus, there are stories from people who aren't dying or suffering from oxygen deprivation. I mean, just like my experience. Also like John's third man experience with the rattlesnake, he wasn't dying of exposure. He was on a day hike with his dad. And there's also the story of a researcher named William McKinley. In 1913, the year before Ernest Shackleton's expedition, he was traveling by ship for a project, but a storm at sea nearly sank it. After the storm ended and the ship made it to shore, William was feeling grateful just to be alive. So the second he set foot on land, he looked up at the stars. At this moment, he wasn't in danger. He certainly wasn't suffocating, but he still felt a presence with him, the third man. And I could maybe buy this hallucination theory if every single story was about just one person seeing the third man. But there are plenty of accounts where there are two or more witnesses who sense the same entity at the same time. It happened with Ernest and his two companions when they were marching across South Georgia Island. And it occurred in March of 1916 to a World War I Irish soldier named Harry Stoker. Harry and some other soldiers were captured during a battle, then held as prisoners of war in a Turkish prison. The conditions were terrible, and Harry knew he couldn't survive another day behind bars. So he and three of his friends made a plan. On the night of March 23, 1916, one man would distract the guards while the others escaped. The plan worked, and everyone except the distraction maker got through the gates and out of the prison. But they still needed to make their way through enemy territory in freezing cold temperatures and with limited food and water. They didn't have heavy coats or tents to sleep in. So it was going to take a miracle for them to survive long enough to be Rescued after a week and a half, Harry and his companions made it to a mountain range which was even colder and more inhospitable than the land they had already crossed. One night, Harry and the others were creeping past some trees and brush when they saw lights in the distance. Flashlights. All Harry could think about was that the prison guards had found them. He was almost ready to just give up and surrender. But then suddenly, he sensed a fourth man with him and his companions. And as soon as he got this feeling, he instantly calmed down. He decided not to panic. Instead, he remained quiet and still and waited to see if the guards passed. It's a good thing Harry didn't surrender, because it turns out that the guards didn't spot him or his friends. They walked right on by and the escapees got to continue their journey. Not long afterward, Harry noticed the fourth man wasn't with them anymore. Once they were out of danger, they all stopped to rest and get something to eat. That's when one of Harry's companions said, did either of you see anything? I thought I saw a man. And the other guy says, I saw him too. Finally, Harry admits he also noticed a fourth companion. They're all in agreement. They didn't just sense this guy, they literally saw him like he was a real flesh and blood person. Now, if this was all a hallucination, only one person would have noticed it, but they all sensed it at the same time, and they all agreed it disappeared at the exact moment they were no longer in danger.

[Yvette Gentile]

It's true. You have lots of people who think the third man factor isn't just psychological, it's real. And it's worth highlighting just how many people think that it actually comes from God. Maybe all of those people were interacting with a guardian angel. That is what I believe. And that is, you know, that's how we were raised, right, Raj? Mom always saying, look out for your guardian angels.

[Racha Pecorero]

Now she's ours.

[Yvette Gentile]

Yes, angels are important in a lot of religious traditions, and it's hard to say exactly what they are because you'll hear very different theories from people who practice Christianity versus Islam versus Judaism. But one common belief across all of those religions is that angels are good spirits. They can serve as a go between for God and human beings. So if you get into trouble, God may not help you himself, but he might send an angel to watch over you, you know, give you some good advice or do whatever else you need. And that does fit with the stories we've heard already. So many of them were about the third man just being there and helping people feel less alone. But there's another theory about angels, one that crops up in some Jewish text, that when people die, their spirits stick around to watch over their loved ones. So, in other words, we can all become guardian angels after our deaths. That fits pretty well with a lot of the third man factor stories, too. We already covered Jerry, the astronaut whose deceased father appeared to him on the Mir space station. And John's book also included the story of Edith Stearns. She was an American pilot in 1932, at a time when it was virtually unheard of for women to fly planes. During one flight that year, she got off course somewhere over Arizona. She wasn't sure exactly where she was, and she didn't know how to get back home. Even worse, she was running out of fuel, and she couldn't see any runways nearby or any long, empty stretches of land she could actually use as one. Her only options were to crash or to land on a railroad track below her. This would have been a very dangerous maneuver, but at least Edith knew the tracks were long, straight, and free of obstructions. So she started to descend, only to hear a voice scream, no, Edie, don't. It sounded like a friend of hers from high school school, a friend who died in a tragic car accident. It made no sense to Edith, but she listened to the voice and stayed in the air. A few minutes later, her salvation appeared in the distance. The Phoenix airport. Edith was able to make a safe, controlled landing, all because she listened to the spirit of her departed friend.

[Racha Pecorero]

I was really moved by this next story of Ann Bancroft, who also saw a third man that resembled a deceased loved one. It started when she wanted to be the first woman to walk across both the Arctic and Antarctica. She finished the march across the north pole in the 1990s, and she was trying to make it through Antarctica in November of 2000. As I'm sure you can imagine, the journey was long and grueling. She braved storms and freezing temperatures. At one point, she strained her arm, which would be a minor injury in ordinary circumstances, but it made Ann's journey feel almost impossible to her. But when she was midway through a long day of dragging heavy equipment over the ice, she got the sensation that someone was with her. And while this newcomer didn't speak out loud, Anne knew the figure wanted to tell her something. It said, you're going to get through this. It's just going to be bloody hard. Anne was positive this additional person was her grandmother, who'd passed away six years earlier.

[Yvette Gentile]

I mean, y', all, we could go on and on. There are hundreds of stories like this, each one more remarkable than the last. The third man factor is so common that therapists are even using it now in treatments for people with trauma. The idea is that if someone has gone through something horrible, they feel better if they imagine an invisible presence with them keeping them company. I know for me, I know for both of us that you know, when we're having a hard day or just something, something terrible has happened. Like, I always envision that mom is like standing right next to us, right there with us.

[Racha Pecorero]

Always.

[Yvette Gentile]

Always.

[Racha Pecorero]

So maybe, just maybe, it's not important for us to understand how the third man factor works. Just that it seemingly does. Whatever the third man is, whether it's a survival instinct, a supernatural entity, or as we like to think of it, a guardian angel, it's comforting to know that there's something we can rely on. That when life confronts you with the most challenging obstacles, we never have to face them alone.

[Yvette Gentile]

This is so supernatural. An Audio Chuck original produced by Crime House. You can connect with us on Instagram at so Supernatural Pod and visit our [e-mail] join Rasha and me next week Friday for an all new episode. I think Chuck would approve.

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