So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast – Episode 242: Is Cancel Culture Dead?
Release Date: May 8, 2025
Hosts and Guests:
- Nico Perino – Host of So to Speak
- Greg Lukianoff – President and CEO of FIRE, author of Coddling the American Mind and Canceling the American Mind
- Ricky Schlott – Co-author of Canceling the American Mind, New York Post columnist
1. Introduction and Context
In Episode 242 of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, host Nico Perino engages in a comprehensive discussion with Greg Lukianoff and Ricky Schlott about their recent book, Canceling the American Mind. The conversation delves deep into the phenomenon of cancel culture, its origins, manifestations across various sectors, and its implications for free speech in contemporary society.
2. Defining Cancel Culture
Greg Lukianoff opens the discussion by providing a precise definition of cancel culture:
"Cancel culture is the uptick, starting around 2014, of campaigns to get people fired, punished, ostracized, or expelled for speech that would be protected... it often happens in environments where the First Amendment doesn't apply, creating a climate of fear." [08:52]
This legalistic definition sets the stage for understanding cancel culture not merely as a series of isolated incidents but as a systemic issue affecting various institutions.
Nico Perino emphasizes the importance of defining cancel culture to move beyond anecdotes and address its widespread impact.
3. Origins and Evolution of Cancel Culture
The conversation traces the roots of cancel culture to 2013-2014, marking a significant shift on college campuses. Greg Lukianoff notes:
"Around 2014, students started showing up in large numbers demanding new speech codes, demanding professors get in trouble. This was a sharp, sudden change." [11:35]
Both Greg and Ricky recount personal experiences and observations from their time in academia, highlighting how cancel culture began predominantly within educational institutions.
Ricky Schlott shares her firsthand experience at NYU, where she felt the encroachment of cancel culture led to self-censorship and fear:
"I had hidden books under my bed because I was afraid my roommates might see them and cancel me." [09:00]
4. Case Studies Illustrating Cancel Culture
The book, as discussed by Greg and Ricky, explores various case studies across different environments:
-
Academic Institutions: Instances where students led campaigns to have professors fired, disrupting academic freedom.
-
Corporate America: The story of Alexi McCammond, the editor-in-chief of Teen Vogue, who faced firing despite issuing public and private apologies for past offensive tweets.
"She had already apologized and yet, public pressure campaigns continued, leading to her resignation. This demonstrates how apologies alone can be insufficient in quelling cancel culture." [25:31]
-
Science and Medicine: Citing the COVID-19 pandemic, Ricky points out how cancel culture stifled scientific discourse, hindering effective responses to the crisis.
-
Law Firms and Media: The targeting of law firms and media professionals for representing controversial clients or expressing dissenting opinions.
Greg Lukianoff shares a deeply personal and tragic story about his friend Mike Adams:
"After enduring relentless canceling campaigns, Mike took his own life. This underscores the severe emotional toll of cancel culture." [18:37]
5. The Role of Social Media in Amplifying Cancel Culture
Greg Lukianoff attributes the escalation of cancel culture to the advent of social media platforms like Twitter (now X):
"Technologies like Twitter enabled almost instantaneous creation of perceived mobs demanding someone's downfall, a scale previously unattainable." [32:43]
Ricky Schlott echoes this sentiment, noting how social media facilitates rapid mobilization and amplification of cancel campaigns, making them more pervasive and damaging.
6. Political Spectrum and Cancel Culture
The discussion broadens to address whether cancel culture is a left-wing phenomenon. Greg Lukianoff argues that while cancel culture initially started on the left, it has since permeated the right, especially under the Trump administration.
"Cancel culture started on the left with grassroots campaigns but has evolved into more institutionalized actions under the Trump administration, including targeting law firms and media outlets." [33:02]
Ricky Schlott highlights the shift, observing that platforms like Blue Sky have become havens for left-wing cancel culture, while the right employs strategies like "industrial grade whataboutism" to justify their actions.
7. Impact on Free Speech and Democratic Society
Both guests emphasize the detrimental effects of cancel culture on free speech and democratic discourse. Greg Lukianoff references John Stuart Mill’s advocacy for free speech, arguing that cancel culture impedes the exchange of ideas essential for a healthy democracy.
"In a free speech culture, you aim for tolerance and understanding, not shaming or punishment. Cancel culture undermines this by silencing dissent and fostering fear." [14:36]
They discuss how cancel culture fosters an environment where individuals are reluctant to express differing opinions, stifling meaningful dialogue and progress.
8. The Aftermath and Current State of Cancel Culture
Addressing the central question of the episode, Greg Lukianoff asserts that cancel culture is not dead but has evolved:
"Cancel culture still exists in corners, but the more pressing issue now is the direct exertion of state power against speech, which is even more concerning." [50:58]
Ricky Schlott concurs, noting that cancel culture has taken on new forms with government involvement:
"Federal actions targeting individuals and organizations resemble cancel culture but are state-directed, making them more pervasive and harder to combat." [51:04]
They highlight how recent actions by the Trump administration, such as revoking security clearances and targeting law firms, represent a more institutionalized and state-backed form of cancel culture.
9. Conclusion and Reflections
In wrapping up, Greg Lukianoff and Ricky Schlott reflect on the enduring challenges posed by cancel culture and the necessity of advocating for a robust free speech culture. They underscore the importance of their work in documenting and analyzing cancel culture’s trajectory to inform future efforts to combat its negative impact.
Greg Lukianoff concludes:
"Our advocacy is crucial in understanding and addressing the backlash caused by cancel culture. Recognizing how we got here is essential for moving forward." [52:46]
The episode closes with Nico Perino highlighting the updated paperback edition of Canceling the American Mind, which includes new data and an epilogue addressing recent developments in cancel culture.
Notable Quotes with Timestamps:
- Greg Lukianoff [08:52]: "Cancel culture is the uptick, starting around 2014, of campaigns to get people fired, punished, ostracized, or expelled for speech that would be protected..."
- Ricky Schlott [25:31]: "She had already apologized and yet, public pressure campaigns continued, leading to her resignation... shows how apologies alone can be insufficient."
- Greg Lukianoff [18:37]: "After enduring relentless canceling campaigns, Mike took his own life. This underscores the severe emotional toll of cancel culture."
- Greg Lukianoff [32:43]: "Technologies like Twitter enabled almost instantaneous creation of perceived mobs demanding someone's downfall, a scale previously unattainable."
- Greg Lukianoff [50:58]: "Cancel culture still exists in corners, but the more pressing issue now is the direct exertion of state power against speech, which is even more concerning."
Final Thoughts:
Episode 242 of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast offers an insightful exploration into the complexities of cancel culture, its historical context, technological amplification, and its pervasive influence across the political spectrum. Through personal anecdotes, case studies, and expert analysis, Greg Lukianoff and Ricky Schlott provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of how cancel culture has evolved and its implications for free speech and societal discourse.
For those interested in delving deeper, the updated paperback edition of Canceling the American Mind is recommended, featuring fresh data and an epilogue addressing the latest trends in cancel culture.
Subscribe and Stay Informed:
- YouTube Channel: So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast
- Substack Page: So to Speak
- Social Media: Follow @FreeSpeechTalk on X (formerly Twitter)
- Feedback: Email at sotospeak@thefire.org
This summary is intended to provide a comprehensive overview of Episode 242 for those who have not listened to the episode. For the full discussion and nuanced insights, listening to the original podcast is highly recommended.