So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

Episode 265: Anthropic, Age Verification Laws, and Press Freedom

Date: March 11, 2026
Host: Nico Perrino (FIRE)
Guests:

• Jennifer Huddleston (Cato Institute, Senior Fellow - Technology Policy)
• Mike Godwin (AI and Privacy Expert, Former EFF/Wikimedia Counsel)
• Greg Lukianoff (President, FIRE; Free Speech Author)

Episode Overview

This episode covers three major free speech flashpoints:

1. The Pentagon’s dispute with AI company Anthropic over government demands and the First Amendment.
2. The emerging wave of age verification laws and regulatory efforts, with a focus on privacy, anonymous speech, and implications for online rights.
3. A recent government search of a reporter’s devices, reviving debate over the Privacy Protection Act and constitutional protections for journalists.

The panel dives deep into constitutional law, tech policy, market reactions, and cultural history—often with humor and references to pivotal legal moments.

1. The Pentagon vs. Anthropic: AI Ethics, National Security & the First Amendment

Background

(03:19) Anthropic, a US-based AI company, refused to let the Pentagon use its AI for “domestic surveillance or to control deadly autonomous weapons.” The Pentagon retaliated by designating Anthropic as a “supply chain risk” and barring federal use of its products, prompting lawsuits from the company alleging First Amendment violations.

Key Discussion Points

• Corporate Ethics vs. Government Power

  • Jennifer Huddleston: “Here in this case, we have the American government pressuring an American company to change its morals and values, and that goes right to the heart of the First Amendment.” (01:00, 05:12)
  • This is usually associated with foreign regimes; it’s new to see the US government in this role.

• When Procurement Becomes Censorship

  • Mike Godwin: The dispute was more than contractual, “there’s no question that viewpoint discrimination is actually informing the government’s…unconstitutional response.” (07:16)
  • Anthropic’s CEO publicly objected, which may have triggered further government pushback.

• Nationalization & Compelled Speech

  • Greg Lukianoff: Invoking the Defense Production Act “sounds an awful lot like nationalization.” He warns about the danger of compelled speech: “Write me code that you don’t want to write—no, I’m going to make you due to the DPA. That’s a serious compelled speech issue.” (08:12)
  • The threat reaches the “epistemic layer”—control over knowledge and reality.

• Precedent and Marketplace Impact

  • Mike Godwin: “If you want to build [an AI company] around ethical practice…why should we stomp on it, especially for a needless quarrel with the Secretary of Defense and the President…” (12:29)
  • Jennifer Huddleston: The public sided with Anthropic, as seen by a spike in downloads vs. a drop for OpenAI after it accepted a Pentagon contract. (13:37)

• National Security Claims and Technical Alternatives

  • Mike Godwin: “Apparently there are other players in this market. It strikes me as a failure of imagination on the part of the DOD...” (14:25)
  • Discussion of alternatives, both technical and policy-based, for safeguarding civil liberties.

• Echoes of Encryption Wars

  • Mike Godwin draws parallels to the 1990s debates on encryption and backdoors, highlighting recurring national security justifications. (18:19)

• Red Lines and Oversight

  • Jennifer Huddleston: “The government has a lot of data that you don’t voluntarily get to give…We need clear guidelines around what that data can be used for.” (19:43)
  • Mike Godwin adds the need for rules modeled after post-Nixon reforms to prevent data abuse, specifically referencing IRS data protections. (21:03)

Notable Quotes

• “If power gets its grubby mitts on the truth machine…this could be a backdoor way to achieve it.” — Greg Lukianoff (09:55)
• “You might almost call it a freedom of association.” — Mike Godwin (12:04)
• “Unconstitutional laws protect no one.” — Rep. Trahan (as recounted by Jennifer Huddleston, 46:30)

2. Age Verification Laws: Free Speech, Privacy & the Problem of “Papers, Please” Internet

Background

(22:08) The FTC and Congress are ramping up pressure for age verification online, possibly requiring ID or biometric checks for broad swaths of the internet, including social media.

Key Discussion Points

• Infringement on Anonymity and Adult Free Speech

  • Jennifer Huddleston: “The only way to deal with age verification for individuals under a certain age is to verify everyone over a certain age. We aren’t just talking about kids and teens, we’re talking about all users…” (24:37)
  • Historical frame: Founders valued anonymous speech; many wrote under pseudonyms.

• Privacy & Surveillance Dangers

  • Mike Godwin: “Child protection is kind of the national security of the domestic front. It’s the issue people raise when they want to … have an ace to play.” (28:28)
  • A growing left-right consensus is emerging against government- and industry-driven surveillance.

• Analogies to 1990s Legal Battles

  • Mike Godwin and Greg Lukianoff highlight the legacy of Reno v. ACLU and early internet fights over age verification and “indecent” speech. (30:10–31:10)
  • Many arguments against age verification echo those from that era, but technology and surveillance have advanced.

• Split Within Civil Liberties Community

  • Greg recalls his disagreements with Jonathan Haidt over kids and social media: “Even to the extent to which I agree with him, creating a situation of what some other commentators have called a papers, please Internet is terrifying.” (33:36)
  • FIRE’s stance: no further extension beyond current legal carveouts for “obscene as to minors” content.

• Technological “Solutions” and Their Limits

  • Mike Godwin: “To me, the idea that this can devolve to how well the social media companies have advanced in technology … is dodging the real issue, which is that there ought to be a real right to be left alone…” (43:53)
  • Huddleston explains that current tech still requires highly invasive verification, and there’s no way around collecting sensitive info for a basic binary age threshold. (45:46)

Notable Quotes

• “This is about the rights of adults just as much as about the rights of kids. Of course, kids also have rights as well.” — Greg Lukianoff (34:07)
• “Do you want your prerogative as a parent to teach the values that you want your kids to carry... or do you want that decided by an unelected bureaucrat in Washington, D.C.?” — Mike Godwin (41:16)

3. The Privacy Protection Act & Press Freedom: DOJ’s Battle Over a Reporter’s Devices

Background

(47:27) Federal agents recently seized devices from a Washington Post reporter in an investigation related to government leaks. The judge involved rejected the DOJ's request to search, invoking concerns over the Privacy Protection Act (PPA) of 1980, and press freedoms.

Key Discussion Points

• Legal Context and Precedent

  • Mike Godwin: Explains the roots in Zurcher v. Stanford Daily (1978), which allowed newsroom searches—Congress responded with the Privacy Protection Act, limiting them. (49:59)
  • Steve Jackson Games case was a pivotal moment in his own legal career and for digital privacy.

• Judicial Skepticism and the Scope of Warrants

  • The judge’s skepticism of DOJ’s filter teams is based in reality: “If they grab your computer, they are grabbing your whole life… Anyone who has access to my phone or iPad knows more about me potentially than I know about myself.” — Mike Godwin (53:51)
  • Agencies often over-collect and leave the onus on subjects to fight after the fact.

• Societal Cost and Normative Concerns

  • Huddleston: Would we tolerate this level of government intrusion in an offline, paper-based world? The expectations shouldn’t shift with digital. (54:56)
  • Tension between law enforcement’s duty and preserving confidential sources, which are vital for accountability journalism.

Notable Quotes

• “The guidance that Congress offered in the Privacy Protection act of 1980 is a good model for us to look at when there are searches and seizures conducted on anyone who’s acting as a journalist, which might be a citizen journalist writing a Substack out of their basement.” — Mike Godwin (52:34)
• “Unconstitutional laws protect no one.” — Rep. Trahan (as cited, 46:30)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Pentagon/Anthropic

  • “You might almost call it a freedom of association.” — Mike Godwin (12:04)
  • “If Power gets its grubby mitts on the ability to define what is true, that’s ultimate power.” — Greg Lukianoff (08:12)

• On Age Verification

  • “The only way to deal with age verification for individuals under a certain age is to verify everyone over a certain age.” — Jennifer Huddleston (24:37)
  • “Child protection is kind of the national security of the domestic front.” — Mike Godwin (28:28)

• On Press Freedom

  • “Anyone who has access to my phone or iPad knows more about me potentially than I know about myself.” — Mike Godwin (53:51)
  • “Do you want that decided by an unelected bureaucrat in Washington, D.C. at the FCC? … I know which way I would go.” — Mike Godwin (41:16)

• Humor & Pop Culture

  • The episode wraps on a lighter note with Green Lantern lore and comic book jokes among the hosts (58:01–59:39).

Key Timestamps

| Time | Segment | Details | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------|---------------------------------------------------------| | 01:00 | Anthropic vs. Pentagon | Federal pressure on AI ethics and speech rights | | 07:45 | Nationalization and Compelled Speech | Defense Production Act, epistemic control | | 12:04 | Freedom of Association & Retaliation | Corporate beliefs vs. government retaliation | | 22:08 | Age Verification: FTC and Congressional Action| Regulatory developments and chilling effects | | 28:28 | Privacy & Surveillance Arguments | National security rhetoric parallels | | 30:10 | Reno v. ACLU and Historical Context | Legal echoes and lessons from the 1990s | | 34:07 | Dissent within Civil Liberties Advocates | Jonathan Haidt & collective action among parents | | 43:53 | Technological Feasibility Debate | Privacy risks vs. advances in age verification | | 47:27 | Press Freedom: DOJ Search, PPA, Precedent | Technology’s impact on press protection | | 53:51 | Digital Searches and Scope of Warrants | Lived experience and legal process issues | | 58:01–59:39| Green Lantern Lore & Farewell | Hosts’ camaraderie and comic relief |

Summary

This episode delivers a comprehensive, insightful, and often witty analysis of current free speech battles at the intersection of law, technology, and public policy. The hosts and guests clearly separate technical, legal, and ethical issues, highlighting the persistence of certain constitutional dilemmas and the shifting forms they take in new technological contexts. From the Pentagon’s attempted arm-twisting of an AI innovator, to identity verification's impact on anonymous speech, to the continuing struggle for robust press protections against government overreach, the core message is clear: new tools and new threats demand renewed vigilance—and the best answers often come from a deep appreciation of first principles.

For more on these topics, watch and subscribe on FIRE’s YouTube or Substack, and don’t forget to check out the video version for comic book cameos!