So True with Caleb Hearon

Episode: Confronting a Union Organizer
Date: October 2, 2025
Host: Caleb Hearon
Guest: Denise Brown (union organizer, activist, Kansas City native)

Main Theme

This episode centers around Denise Brown’s inspiring life journey—from her early years in Kansas City, her time on the East Coast, embracing a Rasta lifestyle, and deep involvement with tenant organizing through KC Tenants. Denise shares stories of resilience, adaption, community work, and intergenerational friendship, and explores the power of collective action against housing injustice.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Denise’s Early Life, Kansas City Roots, and AT&T Days

• Background: Denise grew up in Kansas City, Missouri, left for about 11 years in the ‘70s and ‘80s living in New Jersey, working for AT&T.
• Meeting Her Husband and Moving East:
  • Worked night shifts, met her husband Larry at Penn Valley.
  • “He said, so you come in here to get a husband? I said, I'm getting Larry.” (04:46)
  • Secretly married in Dallas while delivering dogs to cousins for convenience with AT&T’s spouse employment policy.
• Adjustment to East Coast Life:
  • Big lifestyle shift; Somerset, NJ, contrasted with city living. Denise struggled with rural elements (“...it was a cow in the middle of the road. And I'm like, okay, what do I do with this cow in the middle of the road?” (09:03)).
  • Embraced the vibrant, multicultural energy of New York City.
  • Loved free festivals, Broadway plays (“Dream Girls” with the original cast: “Jennifer Holiday... she’s the one that, at the end, just tore the house down” (11:55)).

Life Changes: Divorce and Reinvention

• Growing Apart:
  • Denise and her husband grew apart after promotions. “We grew apart. His values and our values weren’t coinciding...” (14:18).
  • Substance abuse (husband using cocaine) became decisive: “He started snorting coke, and that became more important than our marriage.” (14:33)
  • Tried marriage counseling: “The counselor just said, I don’t think it’s going to work. And I was like, I already knew that.” (15:53)
• New Jersey, Post-Divorce:
  • Moved to Orange, NJ, on her own; ultimately returned to Kansas City to care for a cousin with Alzheimer’s.

Returning to Kansas City: Culture Shock and Identity

• Initial Struggles:
  • “It was horrible... I had gotten used to that east coast life... Kansas City was slow for me.” (18:05)
  • Re-entering with dreadlocks and a Rasta outlook made her stand out: “Some people didn’t want to associate with me because I had locks.” (19:18)
  • “It fits my lifestyle.” (19:16)
• Rasta Lifestyle Explained:
  • Embracing a “natural way of living,” combining influences from Christianity and Islam thanks to her diverse home life.
  • “It’s easy for me to accept differences and not judge people and not try to convert people. Just accept people for who they are.” (22:05)
• Family Background & Acceptance:
  • Raised Methodist, mom was Catholic, cousin was Muslim. Used religious banter to her advantage growing up (“I’d be like, ‘can I go to this party at so-and-so’s house?’ She said, ‘yeah, go get on out of my [hair],’” (23:53)).

Community Media & Music: KKFI and Lady D

• Involvement with KKFI:
  • Volunteered at local community radio KKFI 90.1 FM (blues show), became board member and treasurer.
  • Hosted show as “Lady D” with a teenager named Nathan, playing classic blues artists like Denise LaSalle, Bobby Blue Bland, Coco Taylor.
  • Vividly recalls Kansas City’s Grand Emporium music scene: “Oh, it was live, yeah... all types of music genres came in.” (30:54)
  • Reflects on not being able to get into bluegrass despite trying.

Organizing & KC Tenants: Finding the Cause

• Entry into Organizing:
  • Witnessed and worried about gentrification (“...pretty soon, we're not gonna even be able to live in the city.” (32:27))
  • Attended Midtown tenant teach-ins, discovered KC Tenants, found community: “They were down there in city hall raising hell. Okay? I want to be a part of this.” (33:00)
• Challenges Today:
  • “It is hard for you to afford housing anywhere... outside developers are coming in and what they're doing is building luxury apartments...” (37:19)
  • Current action: tenant strike at Boleyn Towers, Raytown, MO.

Power, Loss, and Hope in Organizing

• Most Powerful Moment:
  • Protest for $1200 affordable rent at City Hall: “We showed up in numbers. We did not win, but it was so powerful. One of our comrades got arrested... it made me feel empowering.” (39:04)
  • Importance of collective presence at city hall: “We do put fear in them when we go down there to show up, to hold them accountable.” (40:17)
• KC Tenants’ Unique Approach:
  • Breaking stereotypes of division: “We don't judge people. We accept people for who they are. And we embrace everyone that comes into KC tenants.” (41:22)
  • Handles questions about pronouns and political diversity with humor and frankness: “Because I'm addicted to dick. Okay. Recognize.” (43:13)

Clarifying Political Priorities

• Uniting Around Shared Interests:
  • “The in group is, do you think that everyone deserves safe, affordable, fair housing? And the out group is, do you think that's not true and it's okay to exploit your neighbors?” (44:42)
  • “That is 100% true.” (44:43)

Intergenerational Friendships, Positivity, and Hope

• So True Moment:
  • “Older people having a friendship and a good relationship with younger people and younger people having friendships and good relationships with older people.” (48:54)
  • KC Tenants as a site for intergenerational connection.
• On Living a Good Life:
  • Peace, positivity, self-love: “I always try to stay in peace. I meditate, and I do not hold a lot of negativity...you can't help but be happy because negativity is what brings you down.” (51:56)
  • “God don't make junk, and he made you.” (52:54)
• On Hope and Organizing:
  • “Organizing changes things. It brings hope and it also brings prosperity... every change that has been made has been made by the little people, grassroots people.” (57:19)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On adapting to rural NJ:

  “I can remember going home one day and it was a cow in the middle of the road. And I'm like, okay, what do I do with this cow in the middle of the road?” (09:03)

• On difference between now and the ‘80s:

  “Then it was easy. Apartments were affordable. If you wanted things, it was affordable.” (26:09)

• On what unites KC Tenants:

  “We don't judge people. We accept people for who they are. And we embrace everyone that comes into Casey tenants.” (41:22)

• On embracing her pronouns:

  “Because I'm addicted to dick. Okay. Recognize.” (43:13)

• On hope in political action:

  “I believe we will win. And that's really our mindset whenever we go into something...” (55:41)

• Advice to those feeling hopeless:

  “Organizing changes things. It brings hope... every big movement... has been made by the little people, grassroots people.” (57:19)

• On self-love:

  “God don't make junk. And he made you. And from that point on, it was like, okay, okay, okay, I got that.” (52:54)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:21] Guest introduction: Denise Brown, meeting through KC Tenants
• [02:02] Denise’s Kansas City & New Jersey background
• [04:46] “Getting Larry” – how Denise met and married her (now ex-) husband
• [08:01] Culture and festivals in ‘70s & ‘80s New York
• [11:31] Favorite Broadway play: Dream Girls, original cast
• [13:01] Advice for young people moving to new places
• [14:33] Divorce and its circumstances (drug use, marriage counseling)
• [18:05] Returning to KC—struggling to adjust to slower pace and different mindset
• [19:16] “It fits my lifestyle...” – Returning to KC with dreadlocks, Rasta influence
• [22:05] On acceptance due to interfaith upbringing
• [27:07] Denise joins KKFI community radio, hosts blues show as “Lady D”
• [34:00] Discovering and joining KC Tenants: “...I kind of like these people. They down there in city hall raising hell...”
• [37:19] Why tenant organizing is important today
• [39:04] Most powerful organizing moment: protest for affordable rent at City Hall
• [41:22] How KC Tenants unites people across differences
• [43:13] Denise on pronouns (humorous moment)
• [46:05] Conditions in KC housing; tenant strike at Boleyn Towers
• [48:54] "So true" to Denise: intergenerational friendships
• [51:56] On positivity, peace, and loving oneself
• [55:41] “We will win” — tenant union’s mindset
• [57:19] Advice for those lacking hope: “Organizing changes things.”
• [58:39] Trivia game segment

Tone

• Warm, anecdotal, deeply personal, and often humorous.
• Denise is candid, wise, and unfiltered; Caleb is supportive and energetic.
• Both speakers frequently interject support and laughter.

In Summary

Denise Brown’s story is quintessentially American: movement for work, self-discovery, struggle, and community. Her time in union organizing shows how local action can spark genuine hope, bring people together across generations and backgrounds, and defend the fundamental human need for housing. “So true” is, for Denise, about connection and community—values she’s embodied through decades of living, adapting, and fighting for justice.

(For more: KC Tenants is fighting gentrification, advocating for affordable housing, and you can get involved wherever you are. And yes—Lady D is always taking new friends.)