Justin Tranter Wakes Up Applauding

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Justin Tranter Wakes Up Applauding"

Title: Justin Tranter Wakes Up Applauding
Host: Caleb Herron
Guest: Justin Tranter
Release Date: April 24, 2025
Podcast: So True with Caleb Herron, Headgum

---

Introduction

In this engaging episode of "So True with Caleb Herron," host Caleb Herron sits down with acclaimed songwriter and former frontman of Semi Precious Weapons, Justin Tranter. The conversation delves deep into Justin's journey from performing in a glam rock band to becoming a powerhouse songwriter in the pop music industry. They explore themes of creativity, overcoming adversity, the impact of technology on the arts, and personal growth.

---

Early Life and Coming Out

Justin's Childhood Challenges

Justin opens up about his tumultuous early years, sharing experiences of being bullied due to his sexuality. He recounts:

"There was a moment. I think this is funny. Please feel free to laugh. There was, like, five girls who decided they hated me, and they, like, circled me on the playground and pushed me to the ground and all started kicking me."
[05:08] Justin Tranter

Despite the daily hardships, Justin maintained a resilient and fierce attitude, frequently fantasizing about future success even amidst adversity.

Moving to the Chicago Academy for the Arts

Justin discusses his transition from a struggling public high school in Lake Zurich to the prestigious Chicago Academy for the Arts, highlighting his parents' unwavering support:

"My parents are unbelievable. They live down the street. They moved here in Covid, and they are the funniest people. They're like a comedy duo. They're not professionally. They're tennis coaches. Professionally. But they are like a full-time comedy duo. And I was really lucky to be born to them."
[08:24] Justin Tranter

This move marked a pivotal moment in his life, providing a safer and more nurturing environment to pursue his artistic passions.

---

Music Career: Semi Precious Weapons to Songwriting

Formation and Life with Semi Precious Weapons

Justin narrates the creation and life of Semi Precious Weapons, a glam rock band known for its outrageous performances:

"And started a crazy glam band where I wore no pants and six-inch heels and would do cartwheels and barely sing. But it changed my life. Yeah. A lyric. I can't pay my rent, but I'm fucking gorgeous is how I paid my rent for, like, a good seven years."
[14:35] Justin Tranter

Despite not achieving mainstream fame, the band played a crucial role in Justin's development within the music industry.

Transitioning to Songwriting

Facing multiple rejections from musical theater schools, Justin pivoted to songwriting, a decision driven by necessity rather than defeat:

"And I just said yes to any session that they offered. And I was broke as had just moved to LA. Didn't still don't know how to drive. So, like, getting to sessions all over the city. If you don't know LA, it's really hard to navigate the city without a car."
[47:07] Justin Tranter

This transition proved fruitful as Justin secured his first major cut with Kelly Clarkson, setting the stage for his prolific songwriting career.

---

Success and Overcoming Rejections

First Major Success with Kelly Clarkson

Justin shares the elation of having his first song picked up by a major artist:

"Kelly Clarkson cut a song, and then it was like, oh, okay. Maybe this is happening. This is going now."
[47:07] Justin Tranter

This breakthrough validated his efforts and propelled him further into the realm of hit songwriting.

Fall Out Boy's "Centuries"

Another milestone in Justin's career was co-writing Fall Out Boy's "Centuries," which gained massive popularity as a college football anthem:

"So, like, the Kelly Clarkson cut changed my life privately. And the Fall Out Boy 'Centuries,' the football song changed it publicly."
[52:50] Justin Tranter

This dual impact underscored Justin's versatility and ability to craft songs that resonate across diverse audiences.

---

Process vs. Technology: Thoughts on AI

Concerns About AI in Music

Caleb and Justin engage in a thoughtful discussion about the rise of artificial intelligence in the music industry. Justin expresses skepticism about AI replacing human creativity:

"I could see ways that it could be a helpful tool, but it has no taste. And so it didn't scare me as much as the first day."
[73:57] Justin Tranter

He emphasizes the irreplaceable value of human emotion and experience in the creative process.

Collaborating with AI

Justin recounts his uneasy experience collaborating with AI technologies:

"But there was no taste at all. So I just wasn't. It didn't scare me in the least bit."
[75:00] Justin Tranter

Despite initial reservations, he acknowledges potential benefits but remains cautious about the overreliance on technology in songwriting.

---

The Importance of Process in Creativity

Valuing the Creative Journey

Caleb shares his disdain for AI-driven shortcuts in creativity, advocating for an obsession with the creative process:

"I've just been thinking a lot about process and the fact that even if AI could make a perfect comedy script or a perfect song, the antidote to that is people who give a fuck about how it came about and we have to be obsessed with how things come to be and not just how they turn out."
[68:26] Caleb Herron

Justin concurs, highlighting the fulfillment derived from the meticulous crafting of music:

"It is a muscle. I took the first year and a half off of COVID because my parents moved in with me... I just like the process is so important. And if you can't, doesn't matter how naturally good you are at something, if you're not in the process, you're just gonna be rusty."
[70:37] Justin Tranter

This mutual appreciation underscores the podcast's central theme of authenticity in artistic endeavors.

---

Personal Insights and Relationship Dynamics

Navigating Fame and Relationships

The duo touches upon the complexities of maintaining personal relationships amidst professional success. Justin candidly discusses his decision to prioritize his career over romantic relationships:

"I just can't do this anymore. I just can't do that to him, you know, I just couldn't do that to him... I have to establish for myself in the last couple of years is if you don't have a warm, lovely life that you're happy with on your own, you cannot join mine."
[40:27] Justin Tranter & Caleb Herron

This decision reflects a deeper understanding of personal boundaries and the importance of mutual fulfillment in relationships.

---

Conclusion

The episode culminates with Justin's reflections on success, the enduring value of authentic creativity, and the challenges posed by evolving technologies. Both Caleb and Justin emphasize the necessity of maintaining integrity and passion in one's artistic journey, advocating for a balance between embracing new tools and preserving the essence of human creativity.

Notable Quote:

"What's so true to you today? I think... the ability to listen to three songs on a cassette that maybe weren't that good and go, no, this person has something and we could actually make them good at it. I think that's getting lost a little bit."
[11:13] Caleb Herron

This statement encapsulates the show's overarching message: valuing the transformative power of genuine passion and dedication in the face of an increasingly automated world.

---

Featured Quotes with Timestamps:

• "I can't pay my rent, but I'm fucking gorgeous is how I paid my rent for, like, a good seven years."
  [14:35] Justin Tranter

• "People who never thought I was cool think I'm cool."
  [03:11] Justin Tranter

• "If you can only get turned on if I'm saving someone who didn't ask to be saved. That's bad."
  [39:43] Justin Tranter

• "Things that come about and not just how they turn out."
  [68:26] Caleb Herron

• "What's so true to you today? I think..."
  [11:13] Caleb Herron

---

This episode of "So True with Caleb Herron" offers a profound exploration of creativity, resilience, and the human spirit's capacity to adapt and thrive amidst changing landscapes. Justin Tranter's candid revelations and insightful perspectives provide listeners with both inspiration and food for thought.

Transcript

[Caleb Herron]

This is a Headgun podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by alma. Alma's on a mission to simplify access to high quality, affordable mental health care. Alma has built a community of over 20,000 diverse therapists. Therapists on the platform offer both in person and virtual care. While online tools and resources can be a useful starting point or supplement, human relationships are an irreplaceable part of mental health care. ALMA can help you find someone who will work with you on your specific needs and goals and support you in making real progress in improving your mental health. ALMA ALMA also makes things real simple to find a therapist. Some people turn to impersonal online resources like forums or chatbots because they think finding a therapist is expensive and difficult. The directory makes it easy to find therapists that take your insurance and meet your unique needs with filters like gender, race, therapeutic approach, and more. Know the cost of your sessions up front using Alma's Cost Estimator tool. At Alma, 97% of therapists accept insurance, including United, Aetna, Cigna and more. Better with people, better with Alma. Visit helloelma.com Sotrue to get started and schedule a free consultation today. That's hello. A l m a.com s O-T-R-U e.

[Justin Tranter]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone. Paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent.

[Caleb Herron]

To $15 per month required intro rate.

[Justin Tranter]

First 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] what's so true to you today, Justin?

[Caleb Herron]

You are just dead set on turning this whole show around on me and I've just about had it.

[Justin Tranter]

But stop booking fans on your show. It's just gonna happen.

[Caleb Herron]

I can't. It's good for my ego. We've been working on this one for a minute.

[Justin Tranter]

I know.

[Caleb Herron]

We've been working on this one for a minute. I haven't seen you in so long.

[Justin Tranter]

It's been a while.

[Caleb Herron]

You've been avoiding me like the plague.

[Justin Tranter]

Didn't you move it across the country?

[Caleb Herron]

Sure.

[Justin Tranter]

That's not my fault.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, my big thing is to move away sort of unannounced and then blame people for not seeing me.

[Justin Tranter]

Fair.

[Caleb Herron]

Do you like That I think me.

[Justin Tranter]

I do.

[Caleb Herron]

It's kind of chic drama. Yeah, it's kind of chic. We're both dressed in all black. The New York uniform.

[Justin Tranter]

We didn't even coordinate the.

[Caleb Herron]

Those shoes are really cute, aren't they?

[Justin Tranter]

So dumb.

[Caleb Herron]

What are they?

[Justin Tranter]

They're like sexy clown shoes.

[Caleb Herron]

I really like them.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Caleb Herron]

They're very chic.

[Justin Tranter]

Thank you very much.

[Caleb Herron]

You have great taste in shoes.

[Justin Tranter]

I like things.

[Caleb Herron]

You do like things.

[Justin Tranter]

I like nice things. I'm not gonna lie.

[Caleb Herron]

Well, when you write hit songs, you can have nice shoes. I don't know what to say.

[Justin Tranter]

Facts are facts. America.

[Caleb Herron]

I don't know what to say.

[Justin Tranter]

America.

[Caleb Herron]

All of America listens to this podcast, by the way. So you're gonna be hearing from America about the shoes.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah. I can't wait.

[Caleb Herron]

What have you been up to? What's up with you lately?

[Justin Tranter]

Just been working a lot, which is so fun. I think pop music's gotten really fun again.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

I make pop songs. For anyone who's confused why I'm talking about pop music being fun.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Pop music got really, really fun. And obviously with co writing. Good luck, babe. People who never thought I was cool think I'm cool. You know what I mean?

[Caleb Herron]

People are really coming around on Justin, huh? Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Artists who are like, aren' the guy who wrote Believer by Imagine Dragons. We don't really want to talk to you.

[Caleb Herron]

A hit song that people loved, by the way.

[Justin Tranter]

I mean, my parents got to retire early because of it.

[Caleb Herron]

Never heard of it.

[Justin Tranter]

Let's be honest. Yeah, but Chapel, I think, opened up some cooler doors. So I'm working on, like, some really fun stuff that I never got to work on before. So that's good.

[Caleb Herron]

You've got a type. You love a Missouri girl.

[Justin Tranter]

I love Jake Wesley Rogers. Chapel.

[Caleb Herron]

Chapel. You can't get enough of a Missouri girl.

[Justin Tranter]

Well, I'm from Illinois, so we're topping you endlessly.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. And thank God. And thank God to be topped by Illinois. And it's just what you need.

[Justin Tranter]

It's. It's healthy.

[Caleb Herron]

Everyone needs an Illinois top in their life. Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Friendly, but aggressive.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. But gets the job done.

[Justin Tranter]

To quote Chapel's New York.

[Caleb Herron]

To quote Chapel, by the way, you are from Illinois. And then you. You went to, like, what was the music school you went to in Chicago?

[Justin Tranter]

The Chicago Academy for the Arts.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. You went to, like, an arts school.

[Justin Tranter]

And, like, a fame, but, like, the Midwestern version, which means, like, less money, less academics. But the best school in the world changed my life. Now they have really Serious academics, which confuses me. Every time I go to visit, I'm like, wait, so you all can read now?

[Caleb Herron]

Cause that's. We were just sort of gay and doing makeup when I was here.

[Justin Tranter]

Literally, actually just riding trains, doing makeup, singing songs and calling that an education.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about little Justin. I wish I knew you then, but I didn't.

[Justin Tranter]

Really? Gay. Yeah, really. Like, just luckily was, like, being horrible before I got to the Chicago Academy for the Arts, where I was not bullied at all. I was like, if there was, like, a prom queen, that was me.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

But before that, like, bullied beyond belief, but luckily born with the disposition of, like, y'all are gonna be so mad.

[Caleb Herron]

You're gonna regret that.

[Justin Tranter]

No.

[Caleb Herron]

Being put in a locker, Being like, okay, but you're gonna regret this.

[Justin Tranter]

I actually. No, there was a moment. I think this is funny. Please feel free to laugh. There was, like, five girls who decided they hated me, and they, like, circled me on the playground and pushed me to the ground and all started kicking me.

[Caleb Herron]

Oh, that's hilarious.

[Justin Tranter]

And the whole time, I was like, oh, my God, you bitches are so dumb.

[Caleb Herron]

You're, like, dodging kicks. You're like, I'm gonna have a Grammy.

[Justin Tranter]

I'm gonna have, like, I'm gonna be so rich.

[Caleb Herron]

That is so funny.

[Justin Tranter]

So even though, like, it was horrible every day, I, like, literally was like, I'm so fierce. So little me was really fun. Lots of makeup, which, you know, I came out in 1994. That's crazy. Midwest. Because I'm old as shit.

[Caleb Herron]

That's crazy. Yeah. I'm 44 in 1994 is nuts.

[Justin Tranter]

It was not smart. It wasn't. It wasn't. I guess it was good for my heart, but not good for, like, my bruising. You know what I mean? It was definitely not the smartest choice, looking back, but I had a blast.

[Caleb Herron]

So in 1994, you're how old?

[Justin Tranter]

14.

[Caleb Herron]

You're 14. And you. You just. You're like, I'm gay to everybody.

[Justin Tranter]

Gay as fuck.

[Caleb Herron]

Come right out.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah. But then also, like, remember, it's 94. So, like, you kiss a boy and you're convinced you're going to die.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Of. Of a horrible disease.

[Caleb Herron]

So the big one.

[Justin Tranter]

The big one. So it was also really interesting time to be like, no, I'm going to come out and, like, start hooking up with boys now. But then every time, have a severe panic attack that I was dead.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, of course I had that. When I started hooking up with guys in 20, I hooked up with a guy for the first time in, like, 2010, 2011.

[Justin Tranter]

Wow.

[Caleb Herron]

And I was still having the same fear. I was like. I was like. I didn't. Of course, I didn't know how any of that worked. I was just like, I'm gonna get a disease and die and go to hell.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

It was really intense even then. So I can't imagine. 94. Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

My mom likes to bring up. She's like, oh, you are like, what's the thing when you, like, are afraid of Hypochondriac. Thank you.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

And I'm like, no, mom. I was just a gay kid in the 90s. Like, I'm not a hypochondriac. I just, like, that was what happened to us.

[Caleb Herron]

It was a very specific time and a very limited amount of information.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

So 94, you come out as gay at 14. And are you at the Chicago arts Academy by then or.

[Justin Tranter]

Not yet. Like, about to be.

[Caleb Herron]

So you're at some random public high school.

[Justin Tranter]

Yes. Lake Zurich high school. A terrible place. Go, like, docks. The whole. Go the whole Lake Zurich school.

[Caleb Herron]

Lake Zurich school system. You are on notice, bitch. You are on notice, bitch. So you're there.

[Justin Tranter]

Yep.

[Caleb Herron]

And then how do you get to the. How do you get to the cool art school?

[Justin Tranter]

So I had a friend from theater camp, of course. Sammy Simpkin, legend. She had, like, blonde hair way past her ass. She was so glamorous. I really wanted to be here. She still has the blonde hair past her ass. She's not giving it up. And I don't think she should. She was going there, and I really wanted to go. My parents were like, oh, but putting, like, a 14 year old on the train for an hour to school and an hour home every day seems unsafe. And then Lake Zurich school system got very unsafe.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

And they were like, let's put you on the train.

[Caleb Herron]

Sounds pretty good.

[Justin Tranter]

The train sounds amazing.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

So then I got to transfer halfway through freshman year of high school.

[Caleb Herron]

So cool of your parents.

[Justin Tranter]

My parents are unbelievable. They live down the street. They moved here in Covid, and they are the funniest people. They're like a comedy duo. They're not professionally. They're tennis coaches. Professionally. But they are like a full time comedy duo. And I was really lucky to be born to them.

[Caleb Herron]

That's really sweet. I love them. I'm assuming y'all get to hang out, like, a good amount.

[Justin Tranter]

We play hearts.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Card game. We play hearts at least twice a week. They hang out with me.

[Caleb Herron]

It makes Me want to cry.

[Justin Tranter]

It's really beautiful.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. Well, you have such a beautiful. It's so nice to know that you have such a lovely birth family because you have such a beautiful, like, chosen family.

[Justin Tranter]

Thank you.

[Caleb Herron]

The people you put together. I've only gotten to be around your group of people a couple times, but I just was like, yeah, this makes so much sense. You're such a warm, lovely person and you have such warmth and love around you.

[Justin Tranter]

Thank you.

[Caleb Herron]

You've written so many hit songs. You've written so many big songs, and I am a fan of absolutely all of them because I just love you. But what. How to.

[Justin Tranter]

Some of them are trash, but I like you.

[Caleb Herron]

I'm telling you, if you. I have yet to hear a song of yours that I didn't like, and if you put out one that wasn't working for me, sonically, I'd be there anyway, because I'm loving Justin. Hasn't happened yet, but I know that it could at any moment.

[Justin Tranter]

Thank you.

[Caleb Herron]

At any moment.

[Justin Tranter]

On your toes.

[Caleb Herron]

On your toes. Be careful in the studio. But. Okay, so I'm interested in how we get to the hit. So you're at the arts High school in Chicago.

[Justin Tranter]

Yep.

[Caleb Herron]

And then from there you go to Berkeley School of Music in Boston.

[Justin Tranter]

Correct. Yep.

[Caleb Herron]

Tell me what happens to it. Why do you choose Berkeley and how is Boston feeling?

[Justin Tranter]

Well, what's. So I started writing songs like junior year of high school, but I still really wanted to just be like Bernadette Peters. Like, I still was convinced that I would be something an Annie in some revival on Broadway. And I applied to six schools for musical theater and one for songwriting. And I got rejected to all six. I swear in my life.

[Caleb Herron]

They're like, we've seen a million kids like you.

[Justin Tranter]

Literally, we've seen like a million schools. 17 year old with clear braces and blue eyeshadow. Please. No. But then I sent in like a three song cassette tape to Berklee College of Music with songs that I had written and got in there.

[Caleb Herron]

Do you still have that cassette tape?

[Justin Tranter]

I don't. I really wish.

[Caleb Herron]

I wish I could get my hands on that thing. I want to hear that.

[Justin Tranter]

It's not gonna be good, but I'll never forget one teacher said, yeah, your songs aren't good, but we love the passion.

[Caleb Herron]

No, but that's taste. Like people used to have. Taste. Yeah. I feel like so many people now because of the Internet, so many of the tastemakers that are supposed to, like, they're supposed to the only talent that they're supposed to have as the gatekeepers is to see people that are developmental and go, you're not good yet.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

But I see the passion. I see the vision. I see, I see a possibility for you.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And because of the Internet, so much of that has gone away. And now all that a lot of those gatekeepers can see, in my view, is follower count.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And follower count has taken over for taste.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And so the ability to listen to three songs on a cassette that maybe weren't that good and go, no, this person has something and we could actually make them good at it. I think that's getting lost a little bit.

[Justin Tranter]

I agree. I think that in some ways, like, gatekeepers are good.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. And I'm on board.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

When they have taste and when they want to actually do the work to help you get better.

[Justin Tranter]

And like, there's also like, of course. Because even though I don't want it to be, a lot of my for you page is. Is pop music because I engage with it. And then you just get all these like 23 year old homosexuals who are convinced that they like, they know what the single should have been or they know how the record could have been mixed better. And I'm like, you literally don't know anything. So I think gatekeeping has gone wrong in many. Cause now there's people pretending to be gatekeepers who aren't, who have no taste. They just have a phone.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. And they have the ability to see how many Instagram followers someone has. And it's not that. That's not important. That's totally important in the, in the ecosystem that we're in. But yeah, to be a gatekeeper, I feel like you should, you should have some level of taste and desire to find people when their thing is still being figured out and help them realize the fullest vision of it. That version of gatekeeping is just like, nice.

[Justin Tranter]

It's really nice.

[Caleb Herron]

That's actually cool and helpful and good.

[Justin Tranter]

That's like help.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

That's interesting. So you go to Berkeley?

[Justin Tranter]

Go to Berkeley. I like really wanting to do. So then I'm like, okay, that's it. I would never do a musical. Duh. Why would I ever want to do a musical? This just like completely deleted it from my history and was like, I'm gonna be like a male Tori amos meets Ani DiFranco. Thank you. Thank you for the gasp.

[Caleb Herron]

I gotta appreciate it. By the way, was the gasp at male or you said, I'm gonna be male. Horrified SHRIEKING GLASS SHATTERS IN THE DISTANCE.

[Justin Tranter]

Kicked out of the studio. Kicked you over. Get out. Mic thrown, mic unplugged. So I went on that journey for a minute. That was very funny. Thank you. Went on that journey and then moved to New York. Was doing, like, a singer songwriter thing. I had a night at Sidewalk Cafe, which was sort of like the home for antifolk at the time. Like, Regina Spector came out of Sidewalk Cafe, like, some really amazing music. And I'd had a night there every Sunday called Justin Tranter's Flaming Sundays, which was named for me by the straight man that ran the venue.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, of course.

[Justin Tranter]

But I kind of.

[Caleb Herron]

I'm fucking with it.

[Justin Tranter]

I'm okay with that.

[Caleb Herron]

You know what? Broken Clock, twice a day, et cetera. Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

So then, like, the singer songwriter thing kind of, like, ran its course and I was like, let me just, like, start a crazy glam band and.

[Caleb Herron]

Is this Semi Precious.

[Justin Tranter]

Semi Precious Weapons. Yeah. And started a crazy glam band where I wore no pants and six inch heels and would do cartwheels and barely sing. But it changed my life. Yeah. A lyric. I can't pay my rent, but I'm fucking gorgeous is how I paid my rent for, like, a good seven years.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

So you. How does semi precious. You're doing Justin's Flaming Sundaes. Justin Tranter's Flaming Sundaes, which bring that back, by the way. Yeah, done. And then how do you start Semi Precious Weapons? Like, what is. How does that begin?

[Justin Tranter]

I just, like, was like, I need. I want to do something. I was, you know, being like the Tori Amos Ani difranco Carbon Copy, but way worse. So not carbon at all. Just what's. What's. What's worse than carbon.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

And it was like, that's just. It wasn't very fun. I was, like, taking myself way too seriously, so just, like, was like, I want to have fun and be ridiculous. And so just called three people that I knew. Hey, you're in my band now. It's called Standing Precious Weapons. Like, let's rehearse on Tuesday.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

And that was literally how I started it.

[Caleb Herron]

Stop it.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah, just, like, domed a bunch of straight boys and told them, like, this is what's happening.

[Caleb Herron]

Well, clear, though, that at this point, you must be. You must be very good at music, even at this point, to call three people and go, you're in my band. And they go, yeah, we are. Yeah, we are in your band.

[Justin Tranter]

Very good at music. Or just really determined. And I think that a lot of people who play instruments are not determined. They're Determined to be very good at their instrument. But it's not a very outward skill. It's a very inward skill. So I think whether they thought I was good or not, it was just someone telling them what to do. And also delusional. Like, we're gonna be famous in two months.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

And we weren't ever famous. You know, we were a band for 10 years and not famous at all. But it got all of us in the business, and we all have now very different successful jobs in the music business, just not as the band.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

That's really interesting. And also the determination piece of it. I think I sometimes, you know, I have a lot of friends who do all kinds of different artistic things, like, we all do.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And I get a little frustrated sometimes by people who are talented but not determined. Where I'm like, you are so good. All you have to do is lock in a little bit. Care if you would lock in a little bit. I can't care more than you do.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And if you would lock in a little bit, you could have the things you want. And it drives me fucking crazy.

[Justin Tranter]

But it's. It used to drive me crazy forever. And then I realized, like. But, like, it's. Talent is so important. But if you want. Wanting to succeed is exhausting.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

And if that's not, like, for that person.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Then fuck it.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Because it is, like, in the. Not to sound cheesy, but the amount of, like, rejection that is required to succeed is not for everyone.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, it's. It's hard. Like, and we. The band started in early Internet days, but it was still enough. Early, not early Internet, early social media days, MySpace and blah, blah. Like, you still get, like. It was funny, really funny to watch my band members, like, experience homophobia because everyone just assumed because they were in my band and I'm in full makeup and heels. They must be gay too. So, like, getting comments of like. Like a bunch of slurs that I won't say. But, like, for them was really interesting to watch, like, straight men be like, oh, this isn't fun.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

How did they handle that? Like, that's really interesting. Did y'all ever have, like, talks about it or, like, was it just something you were putting up with? Kind of like, this is part of it.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah, kind of. I mean, they're all really wonderful. And I still talk to them all at least twice a week. And one of them is like, I make music with all the time in pop music, but yeah, they just kind of like rolled with it. But it was definitely like, they were all pretty enlightened, elevated individuals, but yet to watch. I was so used to it that I just thought it was funny.

[Caleb Herron]

I've been called.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

This is actually not new to me.

[Justin Tranter]

This is not new at all. And for them to be like, oh, wait, so people might not like our music because they assume we're all fucking? Yeah, like, you know that. Like to watch. Even like people who consider themselves very progressive to, like, when I, when they find out my band members were straight, they were like in genuine shock.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Of like. But how.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

So you guys, you're on a bus.

[Caleb Herron]

Together, they're with you and. Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

That's so interesting.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Well, you talked about the like early MySpace and stuff of it all. Did you feel at that time? I mean, obviously, as like an artist now, I, I'm just acutely aware that there's no career without the Internet.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

It's everything.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Unfortunately, I find that unfortunate, but. And so you're trying to squeeze in these other things. It's like you're trying to make the live show great because you care about the quality of it. But really, as long as the Internet stuff goes well, that's the job.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And did you feel that starting to happen back then? Like, did it feel like your music had to hit on MySpace for it to.

[Justin Tranter]

Well, and it was, it was such a beautiful gift. We were, we could sell out, not crazy tickets, but we could sell like anywhere from 500 to 1500 tickets in Almost City because of MySpace.

[Caleb Herron]

That's nuts.

[Justin Tranter]

So I like thought MySpace was amazing. I was having a blast on MySpace. I was like. And I also like MySpace. There was a certain part of MySpace that just loved like male bodied people and makeup.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

And that worked great for me.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

You know, like, it, it. I loved it. I understand that social media can be exhausting when you're trying to also like perfect the important parts of your art. But I always. What a gift that like I could show up to the pageant in St. Louis and sold it out.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

From fucking MySpace.

[Caleb Herron]

Also. 500 tickets. Like I think sometimes when you've been doing it for a little bit and you're playing like you're playing bigger venues or artists that you work with are selling out. You know, I have friends doing stadiums or whatever. Like that shit's crazy. But 500 tickets in any given city in the United States, like that is really, really hard to do. Yeah, it's like a huge accomplishment.

[Justin Tranter]

And it was like, also Just like. And you just comment back to kids and they get excited and, like, you know, like, the top eight was really fun.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

For anyone who's old enough to remember MySpace, top eight was like, when, like, Kate Moss put us in her top eight, we're like, that's it. We're famous. That's it.

[Caleb Herron]

Wait, Kate Moss could put your band in her top eight?

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah. So there was like an everyone's MySpace page. You could pick, like, these are my favorite eight friends on MySpace.

[Caleb Herron]

Right.

[Justin Tranter]

And so, like, we were in, but.

[Caleb Herron]

It shows it to everyone.

[Justin Tranter]

Everyone would see it.

[Caleb Herron]

Stop. Yeah, that's drama. Stop. That's drama.

[Justin Tranter]

It was so. But it was like, half the time, it was people you didn't actually know.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

It was like, you know, Tila Tequila Slay, you know, before we knew she was a Nazi.

[Caleb Herron]

You know what I mean?

[Justin Tranter]

It was like. I mean, she wasn't in my top eight. Just wanted to go on record.

[Caleb Herron]

Hey, hey.

[Justin Tranter]

Or like, yeah. So people could put you. Other MySpace names that I will not mention would put us in their top eight. And it would be really exciting. And you would, like, literally message me, hey, let's both top eight each other. Let's both top each other for the week.

[Caleb Herron]

And you just, like, you're doing top eight trades.

[Justin Tranter]

Literally, you would.

[Caleb Herron]

This is crazy.

[Justin Tranter]

And it would be amazing. And then, like, the. The lyric I mentioned before, I can't pay my rent, but I'm fucking gorgeous. The amount of people. It was the first lyric in the song. And whatever you picked as your profile song, if people went to your page, it would play the first 30 seconds of that song. Oh, and so since I can't pay my rent, but I'm fucking gorgeous was the first line of the song. It was in that first 30 seconds, and it changed my life. So T shirts, like, when we were, like, even before we were selling 500 tickets everywhere, we had T shirts at Hot Topic, we had T shirts at Urban Outfitters. We were knocked off by Spencer's Gifts, and I had to send a cease and desist.

[Caleb Herron]

Ooh.

[Justin Tranter]

So MySpace was really. I get it. Social media is exhausting. But also, what a beautiful gift that people can hear your comedy or your music sitting in their creepy bedroom. You know what I mean? That's amazing to me. So I always thought. I loved that when I started my band that MySpace existed. It was such a gift.

[Caleb Herron]

I think it is a gift to people who care about process. Like, I think you're someone who cares about process and makes great work. I find it hard because some people that don't care about process and haven't spent a long time, like you studied music for so long and went to school for it and figured out which you don't have to do, but you really learned, I think, how to make great music and putting that quality. Yeah. And I give a fuck about comedy and really care about my stuff being good. But the Internet does have an unfortunate side to it, as all things do, of course, where people who don't care about process and aren't putting out good work do get elevated. And that's just an unfortunate part of it. But I think overall it is net positive.

[Justin Tranter]

But there was always some version of someone getting elevated who didn't deserve it.

[Caleb Herron]

Right?

[Justin Tranter]

This is always new. Yeah, this is not new. It's just a new version, I think because we can see the nuts and bolts of it so easily on social media that it feels new. But there's always been some version of someone with a record deal who had no business having a record deal.

[Caleb Herron]

Right, right, right, right.

[Justin Tranter]

That's like never not happened. I have a question. And you talking about process, how much do you think of how great you are is like, it's true though, like when like, you're like, I was actually. Even though I know you, I was still like, I don't really get nervous. I like, normally haven't been nervous since the 90s, but I was actually nervous to do this. Cause I'm such a fan of what you do, Justin. So my question for you is, like, how much do you think is like your natural gift of just being really clever? And how much is that process of like, creating greatness?

[Caleb Herron]

Oh, God. Creating greatness. I think, like, I feel that the people in my family are so funny and I feel that I was born in very funny circumstances. Like being born poor, fat and gay in Missouri is just like, something was going to have to happen. You know what I mean?

[Justin Tranter]

Something's got to give.

[Caleb Herron]

Something's going to have to give. Yeah. It was like I was either going to be funny or closeted or dead. Like something was going to have to. Something was going to have to go some. Some way.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And I'm glad it went funny, obviously.

[Justin Tranter]

But like, yeah, at least dead's easy.

[Caleb Herron]

Dead's easy.

[Justin Tranter]

It's calm.

[Caleb Herron]

And I'm holding on to the fact that that will happen eventually. I'm like, that's just going on its own. I don't even have to do it. That's you, you know, in your early 20s, you maybe get for a little Bit. And then you go, it's gonna sort itself, baby. Relax. Trust, trust. It'll come around. It gets so obsessed. I don't know if this happened to you, but in my early 20s, I got so obsessed with myself, and I was like, it's gonna do it on its own. You're like. You're like reinventing the wheel.

[Justin Tranter]

I luckily cannot relate to that.

[Caleb Herron]

Thank God.

[Justin Tranter]

But I will say, like, now I'm just. Sometimes I just get so exhausted.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. Doing nothing.

[Justin Tranter]

Oh. Like just a really long sleep. AKA death. Sounds so cute. I'm saying just, like, easy.

[Caleb Herron]

When I conquered my fear. Most of my ideation when I was young was actually a fear of death and a fear that I was going to die in Missouri without ever getting to go out and experience the world and be openly. And these are not things I was processing at the time.

[Justin Tranter]

Right.

[Caleb Herron]

But I look back and go, like, yeah, you were. You were afraid of death because you weren't living the life you wanted to live.

[Justin Tranter]

Right.

[Caleb Herron]

And so now, part of how I conquered my fear of death was just a lot of different things about, like, fulfilling my own desires to be who I actually was meant to be. To be out and to live in different places and to do all this fun stuff and be creative. But then another part of it was kind of that thing where I'm like, yeah, I used to be really scared of flying on planes, and now when the turbulence gets bad, I go, there's a bunch of stuff next week you won't have to do. But, I mean, hey, if this goes down, that meeting you don't want to do, Guess who's not going.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

You know, and there is a piece of that, that it does bring me comfort.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

But, no, I like being alive. I'm keeping it that way as long as I can. I'm kind of addicted to it at the moment.

[Justin Tranter]

Good.

[Caleb Herron]

But work versus, Yeah. I think I was lucky to be all the things I would have changed about myself as a kid. I would have, you know, wanted to be thin and straight and, you know, maybe live somewhere cooler than Missouri or whatever.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Or have money, not be so poor. All those things. I'm so glad that none of those things happen because they're the best things about my point of view.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And the way I see the world and the most useful things about me. Yeah. But I work really, really, really fucking hard.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

I work really hard. I write. I write jokes like it matters. I work really hard on my live shows I really give a shit about. I have a real fear of people paying for a ticket to come and see me and not feeling like I cared. Like I never, ever, ever want someone to leave a show of mine Feeling like I didn't understand how crazy it is for a working person to pay for that. To pay for that.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

A person who works for a living, which is most people.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

To spend 75, 80, 100, sometimes more dollars to come and then even. Maybe even crazier to come spend their night with you. Right. That they might only get a night off a couple times a year.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Where they don't have the kids or they take off from work, they get a babysitter, they rent a car. Like that is. I don't know. When I look at an audience, I think about, like, all the sacrifices people made to be there.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

There are people who found a different way to pay rent that month because they wanted to come to your show.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And so that is what make. That was what fuels me working hard on the stuff, even though I kind of don't have to anymore.

[Justin Tranter]

Right.

[Caleb Herron]

You could stop working hard at a certain point. You know what I mean? People will. People will come to a certain extent if. If I played a certain size of venue, it'll probably sell right now, you know, But I. It really does trip me out. And it's extremely. Not heavy. But I don't. I just think about that a lot, you know? This episode is sponsored by our friends at Aura Frames. Mother's Day is upon us, folks. Don't get caught buying the same old gifts this year, like sweaters, candles, or, heaven forbid, another bathrobe. Your mother deserves better than all that. Named the best digital photo frame by wirecutter, Aura Frames is guaranteed to mix things up. This year, Mother's Day should be a day to show your mom just how much you appreciate all the simple things she's done for you, like buying your shoes or giving you the gift of life. And a brand new way to display all her favorite photos is a great way to do that. Aura Frames come with unlimited storage so you can share as many photos as you want. From your phone to mom's aura frame. Not only will she be grateful it's not another sweater, she'll also love that an aura frame means she gets to see more of you. And don't even worry about having to wrap this gift yourself. Every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag. Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off plus free shipping on their best selling Carver mat frame. That's auraframes.com promo code. So true. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply, of course. Folks, I'm going to be honest with you. If ED is getting you down, you need HIMS to help get your confidence and other things back up. HIMS provides access to treatments that can help you stay hard and last longer so you can be ready whenever the mood strikes. HIMS is changing the healthcare industry by providing you with access to affordable sexual health treatments from the comfort of your couch. HIMS provides access to a range of doctor trusted ED treatments like Chewable Hard Mints and Viagra and Cialis and their generics were up to 95% cheaper. The process is 100% online, so there's no need for uncomfortable doctor's visits. Just answer a series of questions on their site and a medical provider will determine the right treatment option. If prescribed, your medication ships directly to you for free. No insurance is needed and one low price covers everything from treatments to ongoing care. With hundreds of thousands of trusted subscribers, HIMSS can help you find the ED option that works for you. Start your free online Visit [e-mail] SOTRU that's H I M S.com SOTRue for your personalized ED treatment options. Hims.com SOTRue the future products include compounded products which are not approved nor verified for safety, effectiveness or quality by the fda. Prescription required. See website for details, restrictions and more important safety information. Price varies based on product and subscription plan. God, almost got that one really good. That feels crazy to me.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

What about you?

[Justin Tranter]

I mean I think like to do anything creative there is like the natural gift has to be there.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

But at least for me I've met songwriters who it is just 100% natural and it's so beautiful and shocking to watch. For me I do like really geek out over rhyme structure, over melodic math over like how if you change one note in that chord it could fully change how that lyric feels completely. I really can geek out pretty big time. For me story comes first and the story just has to be really good and clear. But then I can get pretty geeky in the the craft around it like and really enjoyed going I mean having it. I loved getting a degree in songwriting. Like I actually I loved the geeky side of it. I think it's fun.

[Caleb Herron]

I think so. I I also, I'm not, I don't have near the knowledge that you do or the expertise. But I love. When I love a song, I love turning it over in my head and being like, this is why I like this part. And this is. I think it's. Yeah. I think, if anything, I have a skill. If I have any talent in life, it is that I. I think I understand people.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

I do think I'm good at people. I understand what most people want from me in a given moment. I understand, like, if I'm in a room with, like, a very conservative, you know, heterosexual farmer, I kind of know what they want from me as much as I know, like, what a trans barista wants for me. I just know. I know what people like to hear. I can feel. I can feel things with people. And some people have that kind of skill with, like, numbers or, you know, any other thing that would make them good at something else. But this is. I think if I'm good at this thing, it's because I understand people. And if I understand people, it's because I grew up the way that I did.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Closeted in Missouri. You kind of understand what people want from you.

[Justin Tranter]

When did you come out?

[Caleb Herron]

I came out in. I came out. Well, I kind of got. I kind of got outed. I got outed in high school.

[Justin Tranter]

Glamorous.

[Caleb Herron]

I know. By a guy I was hooking up with. And then I came out publicly my freshman year of college, so that would have been like, 2013.

[Justin Tranter]

Wow.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. When I was 18, I came out to my mom when she dropped me off.

[Justin Tranter]

Eighteen's not crazy, though. That's not.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, it felt totally. I felt fine about it. I came out as bisexual.

[Justin Tranter]

Fabulous.

[Caleb Herron]

Which is not true. And. But it felt nice at the time to be like, who knows guys, you know? And then I think after that, I just kind of. Well, what I did was my mom dropped me off at college at my dorm, and that. I told her that day, and she was like. You know, she was, like, suspected. And then pretty much everyone I met at college, if it would come up, I would just be like, oh, yeah, I'm queer.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And I just kind of let it go that way.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Chance, what did you. We met in college. Did. Did I come out to you as gay when we met? No, you. You were still. You were being very aloof about it. I remember we were eating at the Union Club one day with a bunch of, like, Fijis and people. Yeah. And you, like. We're looking at your phone and you laugh to yourself. We're like, what? You're like. Someone on Twitter is like, being like, I think Caleb Herron's bi. And I was like, who knows?

[Justin Tranter]

Think about that. Ruminate, ruminate.

[Caleb Herron]

I'm looking at faces being like, what do we think? What do we think? What do we think? Yeah. That is so funny. Yeah. But it just kind of happened after that and everyone just kind of assumed. It was never a surprise to anybody, I don't think.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah. But I was always. Still am very grateful that how like really gay. Obviously gay I am.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Because friends of mine who, like, have to come out to new people because they might be straight passing. That seems fucking boring and exhausting.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Having to come out like every time you meet someone.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Oh, well, what are people thinking you're straight? That's embarrassing.

[Caleb Herron]

First of all, humiliating. Oh, it's happened to me a couple times. People that just like, see me on the street and think I'm straight and I'm like, come on.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

What else do I need to, like, what do I need to do?

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

I'm being as gay as I can be.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

I don't know. Sometimes it's when I talk about football, though, that gets them.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

They think I'm straight.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah. When I see clips of you talking about sports, it does confuse me. Yeah, it does.

[Caleb Herron]

You and everyone else, honey.

[Justin Tranter]

It does. It is. Oh, I actually have a bone to pick with you. I was. I was searching your clips on TikTok last night.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

And when you were talking to the queen Jensen, who I worship. Yeah, you. I think it was Jensen, but someone you were talking to and you said someone tried to set me up with a 37 year old. A 37 year old.

[Caleb Herron]

Yikes. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.

[Justin Tranter]

What am I going to do? Take them to their doctor's appointments. You said that.

[Caleb Herron]

Tell me that you don't have doctor's appointments.

[Justin Tranter]

Well, I will say I am wearing a heart monitor right now because.

[Caleb Herron]

Tell me right now that you're not going to the doctor. If you're honest. No.

[Justin Tranter]

I literally have to go to the cardiologist. Like my heart is. Everything's fine, I'm not dying. But like, I. So actually, never mind. I take this back. I don't have a bone to pick with you. You're right. If we dated, you would have to take me to the cardiologist.

[Caleb Herron]

I'd have to take you to the cardiologist and maybe I would do it.

[Justin Tranter]

Well, but I think you already said on the Internet you're not taking people to their appointments.

[Caleb Herron]

I'll take you to the cardiologist. This is me, honey. Get in get in the car.

[Justin Tranter]

I was like, 37 is too old now. But then again, how old are you?

[Caleb Herron]

I just turned 30.

[Justin Tranter]

Just turned 30. 37 is not.

[Caleb Herron]

It's not. It's not. I did that. That was a throwaway joke and Justin, you're kidding. People got so mad at me. Wait, actually, people got so mad at me.

[Justin Tranter]

Oh, I thought it was hysterical.

[Caleb Herron]

People, really. It's funny people. I get in trouble on the Internet a lot, but one of the times I get in the most trouble is if I ever. Dating preference. Now, this one happened to be a joke, but if I ever express a dating preference. We had a clip one time that blew up of me talking about. I said something so benign. I said like, yeah, if I go on a date with somebody, I date a lot. And I said, if I go on a date with somebody and I ask them like five questions in a row and they don't ask me any questions back, I'm leaving the date.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Which is so baseline. Respecting yourself. Yeah. Thousands of comments with tens of thousands of likes on each of them. Being like, I don't know if he really has the right to be picky. They. Oh, they hate it. No, Seeing a fat person express like dignity and self respect in dating and sex, they short circuit.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

They can't imagine it. They're like, why would he be on a date in the first place? I thought he was supposed to be in the little cave where they keep job of the hut. What is he doing? What is he doing out on a gay date? Like, where are Lois and the kids? They hate it. They hate it. They get so mad. And the 37 year old people, people were in the comments on that clip being like, being like, this guy will be lucky if he makes it to 37. And I was like, we'll see, we'll see.

[Justin Tranter]

I wasn't actually angry. I thought, I thought it was quite funny. But then in my head I was like, oh, you must be like 25 if a 37 year old is terrifying you.

[Caleb Herron]

No, I'm just ridiculous. No, no, no. I would totally date a 37 year old. It just depends. Yeah, they just said, we'll have to see.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

If you want to set me up with people, set me up.

[Justin Tranter]

I mean, I've never really. As we discussed before we started filming and recording, I don't date. So I'm the least. I should never set anybody up. I think dating's insane. I think relationships are insane. Someone sleeping in your bed is crazy.

[Caleb Herron]

That part is hard.

[Justin Tranter]

Like I did. I was single for 10 years. And I did date someone last year, and he's lovely. No shade to him. But, like, you have to go sleep in the guest room. Like, you cannot. There's a guest room?

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

We're lucky enough to have a guest room. You need to go there. You can't. My dog sleeps in the. Just no compromising. How you fall asleep and wake up is crazy to me.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. I have a real hard time with it. I had a no sleepover rule with hookups for a very long time, and then you like somebody and they start sleeping over, and I actually kind of have gotten into it, but it is. Sleeping is the hardest part for me. Where I'm. Like, sleeping is so specific to me. Having someone in the bed is like, a real. It's tough.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

You said something to me before we started recording to the effect of, I can't be dating. I have to work. Yeah. That was, like, the tone of the. No dating.

[Justin Tranter]

Well, I just, like, I love my job. I want to write minimum, like, eight songs a week. And, like, if an artist is late, which happens quite frequently. Very grateful for every pop star who's ever written with me. But I would say, like, a good 50% of them are always, like, two hours late.

[Caleb Herron]

That's crazy to me.

[Justin Tranter]

And so, like, it's just. I can't plan a date.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Because if so and so is gonna be four hours late, the date is canceled because I'm writing that song with whatever the pop star may be. I'm not going to a fucking date.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

So I just. I would much rather work than date. Like, what are we gonna do? Like, learn about each other?

[Caleb Herron]

What are we gonna do? Hold each other into old age?

[Justin Tranter]

Like, who cares? I have friends for that.

[Caleb Herron]

I know it. I know it.

[Justin Tranter]

I have friends, and they already know me. So then we can just make fun of people. You know what I mean? We don't have to talk about our feelings and. Why are you traumatized? I don't care. I would just.

[Caleb Herron]

Why are you traumatized? I don't care. I find this very surprising coming from you. I would imagine you as a romantic.

[Justin Tranter]

In my 20s, I was so romantic.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. What happened? Who hurt you? Name them, because I'm gonna get them.

[Justin Tranter]

Many people? No, I think I. Well, I just had the very common. I was only attracted to people who I thought needed to be saved. And even though they never asked me to save them, I'd be like, here's a new job you can live in with me.

[Caleb Herron]

You can hang out with my friends who Are wonderful.

[Justin Tranter]

Always. Here's all my friends. Like, I just. And then when I had. When I realized that that's what I was doing, I was like, oh, I think I probably should take a step. Like, if I can only get turned on, if I'm, like, saving someone who didn't ask to be saved. That's bad.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

That's not good.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

So then I took a break from dating intentionally. And then my career started working. And so then when I would try to date, when I had to, like, cancel the second date 12 times because of work, not because I was being shady, I was just like, this is. I just can't do this anymore.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

And then it was the right choice for me.

[Caleb Herron]

I have a real. A rule that I had to establish for myself in the last couple of years is if you don't have a warm, lovely life that you're happy with on your own, you cannot join mine.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

I cannot be the reason that you have friends. I cannot be the reason that you have.

[Justin Tranter]

You put so much pressure on the relationship. It's like, if I break up with you, then you don't have any friends.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

And that is, like, that's too much pressure on a relationship.

[Caleb Herron]

And it's. It's just. You have work to do. You have. You need to build a life that you're happy with, because I want to also be a part of yours. If you're only integrating into my life, then it's a very masturbatory thing that we're doing.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Where you're only meeting my friends, you're only hearing my stories, you're only coming to my events. It's like, that's not reciprocal. That's not a relationship.

[Justin Tranter]

And why don't you have any friends?

[Caleb Herron]

It begs the question, that's, like, what has occurred where. Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah. It's a little. Yeah. So I just stopped dating, and it was great for me.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And now you're not doing it. Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

I just. I just. I. No joke. Like, can't imagine it.

[Caleb Herron]

That is so funny to me.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Cause I just think you'd be so good at it.

[Justin Tranter]

Marriage, a legal document.

[Caleb Herron]

You'd be a great. You'd be a great spouse.

[Justin Tranter]

I mean, I, like. I think I pride myself on being a very good friend. I'm a very good child to my parents.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Like, I love being a good person.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

But I just don't want to do that with, like, a romantic partner.

[Caleb Herron]

I really love that. It surprises me, but I think if you know that about yourself, that's fantastic.

[Justin Tranter]

And I don't need fuel for my songs because my songs are not about me.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Like, my songs are always about the artist and what they're going through.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

So I don't need to, like, create drama in my life to write about because I don't write about my own life anymore.

[Caleb Herron]

I already still bring it two hours late.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah. Two hours late. Well, and they're, like, for the most part, not always, but a lot of times they're younger. Right. So those feelings are so much more raw. And, like, I mean, when I was in my 20s, I would write a song because I had to. It's like, oh, my God, he did this to me. And if I don't write about it, I'm gonna die. I don't. I think the happier you get and the more mature you get, you kind of lose that, like, anger. Hopefully. Hopefully the older you get, the less angry you get. So I don't need, like, bad relationships to fuel my art anymore, which is good. A good thing.

[Caleb Herron]

I feel that way sometimes when I. And this is no shade to anybody, but I feel that way sometimes. When I hear successful people talking about their haters, you know, people that doubted them, I go, of course it's gonna cross your mind every once in a while, but when it becomes a repetitive, constant line of talking for you.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

I'm like, oh, I want you to. I want you to not think about them anymore. Yeah, I want you to. It's one thing to have it be a throwaway, to just be like, oh, yeah, a lot of people doubted me as a fact, or a lot of people were mean to me about my art as a fact. But when it's a constant kind of pathological bringing up of people who didn't believe in you, I'm like, well, what about the people who did? Yeah, maybe it's better to talk about them.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And maybe that would be more exciting.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

This episode of so True is brought to you by booking.com, booking. Yeah. Every time I use booking.com to find a place to stay in the U.S. i know they'll have exactly what I'm looking for. They have a huge variety of options, from hotels to vacation rentals. And I know I can find exactly what I'm looking for. I found booking.com has something for everyone in my friend group. I'm definitely the planner. If I didn't do it, no one would. So when it's time to take that group vacation to a quaint mountain town, I sprint into my Computer and go right to booking dot com. Now, my friends can be pretty specific about what they need out of a place to stay on vacation. We simply must have a full kitchen so I can make some of my famous double chocolaty chip waffles, which. Which I love to make. Booking.com makes it easy and convenient to find so many great places to stay all across the country. No matter who you are, Booking.com helps you find the state that's ridiculously right for you. Find exactly what you're booking for on booking.com booking. Yeah, y'all. Nature needs us now more than ever. Our forests, oceans, freshwater systems and grasslands are crucial for wildlife and for us. This Earth Month World Wildlife Fund is calling on as many people as possible to take time to give an hour for Earth. It's a serious one. I didn't. A lot of them are goofy. I didn't know this is going to be a serious one. All you have to do to participate is pledge to spend an hour doing one of a variety of actions and activities with a positive environmental impact. Whether you're interested in food, guilty fitness, the arts, sustainability, entertainment, or the outdoors, we are calling on you to spend an hour reconnecting with and giving back to our planet. Help us meet our goal of 125,000 hours of collective action. Giving back to nature. Together, we are building a positive environmental movement, reminding us that individual actions can lead to big changes. You can commit to an hour or more enjoying a book outside, visiting an exhibit or museum focused on the environment, or even watching one of the free films from the D.C. environmental Film Festival. There are activities for whatever interests you Most. Go to WorldWildlife.org EarthHour to browse a list of activities, choose your action, and spend an hour giving back to nature. How did you. How did you go from you're doing Semi Precious Weapons? Yep. You're killing on MySpace. You're in Kate Moss's top eight.

[Justin Tranter]

I mean.

[Caleb Herron]

I mean, for God's sake, what more do I need? There's T shirts at Spencer's. We're sending the cease and. Yeah. What? How do you bridge into this fabulous life you have now where you're, like, writing hits for all these big musicians? How does that jump happen?

[Justin Tranter]

So the jump was another out of necessity. So just like I left musical theater because everyone told me not to do it when I was dropped from the fourth record deal, when Sand Precious Weapons was dropped from our fourth record deal. So when the fourth label was like, you should stop, I was like, I guess I'll stop. And it wasn't out of defeat. It was out of, like, I'm 33. Touring is really exhausting. And the thought of going to get a fifth record deal and dealing with a fifth executive and a. Like, just. I couldn't. I guess that is defeat. But it didn't feel like defeat. It felt like a really beautiful pivot of.

[Caleb Herron]

Sometimes when you realize the reality of your goals, your goals change.

[Justin Tranter]

And if the goal. If the heart of the goal is to just make music and get paid for it, I don't need to be egotistical and go, but if I'm not singing it, if my face isn't on the single cover, then that wasn't the dream. Cause if that was the only dream, then, like, I should just be a reality TV star. Which is, again, some people are really good at reality tv. It's not shade. But my dream was to make music and get paid for it. So if I'm gonna pivot to writing songs for other people, at least I'm still making music. And so the band had a publishing deal. Like, you know. Cause someone has to publish your song so they can go and collect the money that you deserve as a songwriter. So there already was a publishing deal. So I just said to my publishers, like, could you put me. I'm pretty sure we're about to get dropped. We hadn't been dropped from the fourth record deal yet, but they had taken our name off of Epic Records, had taken our name off their website. So I was like, well, I think that means we're dropped.

[Caleb Herron]

Hey, it doesn't look good, y'all.

[Justin Tranter]

Even though no one called us yet, I do have the Internet. I'm pretty sure this is over.

[Caleb Herron]

I'm reading into some small things, which is that on the website, they crossed our name out. It would have been easier to delete it, but they kind of drew through it with marker somehow. Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

And so said, could you put me in sessions to write songs with and for other people? And that they did. And I just said yes to any session that they offered. And I was broke as had just moved to la. Didn't still don't know how to drive. So, like, getting to sessions all over the city. If you don't know la, it's really hard to navigate the city without a car. So it was like, get, like, started. If a session was at 1pm, I was leaving at like 9am to get there because it was Deep Valley, whatever. So I just went for it. And like, the. The. I didn't know this at the time. But, like, I was probably writing, like, 30 songs a month at that point. And after, like, three months of all of those songs, like, of 90 songs, be like, no, no, no, no, no. I was like, oh, my God, I'm terrible at this. Maybe I should, like, convince the band that we should book another tour or something. But then Kelly Clarkson cut a song, like, maybe, like, my 90s first song that I had written. In that era of writing for other people, Kelly Clarkson cut. And I was like, oh, my God, thank God. I just didn't understand that side of the business very well. Now that I know this side of the business very well, getting my first cut in three months is crazy. Yeah, you're like, actually, now that I know, I'm like, oh, I slayed.

[Caleb Herron]

Oh, I'm actually superhuman.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah, I guess I'm really good at that.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

But then. Cause it was 90 no's, you know? And that's, like, from big executives. And you're like, oh, my God. If they didn't like that song, they're never gonna listen to another song I ever write. They're gonna see my name on it and be like, that. Delete. You know what I mean? Like, I really thought. Anyway, so Kelly Clarkson cut a song, and then it was like, okay, maybe this is happening. This is going now.

[Caleb Herron]

How does that work, by the way, for dumb people like me? Like, I know Kelly Clarkson cut the song, but did you. Were you in the room with her writing it, or did you write something and send it to her team?

[Justin Tranter]

Wrote something and sent it to her team. Gotcha. And it was also a big sort of, like, epiphany in that moment. Cause it was the first song I had written for someone to pitch for someone else not for my band to sing. It was the first song I had written hoping someone else was gonna sing that I actually liked. Oh, I was like, the first 90 songs, I was chasing, chasing, chasing. Like, it was like the DJ era, where, like, half of every pop song was, like, a dj. Every other hit was a DJ song. So I was, like, trying to do, like, those big, like. And I worship Sia. This is not a cut to Sia. She's one of the greatest songwriters of all time. But, like, you know, Titanium Chandelier, like, the big. Like, I'll just. Everything will be, like, one crazy word, and we'll just, like, write everything. Like, I was just chasing. I wasn't being myself at all. So the first song that ever got cut was a song that, like, I actually liked. And I would, like, listen to on purpose. And so I was like, oh, okay. So me being, like, from a glam punk band and a weird theater kid, and, like, I never liked mainstream pop music. I only ever liked, like, the weird girls of the 90s. And, like, me writing from that perspective is what's actually gonna work.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

And then it still took a lot of work, and I still work really hard to this day. But the sort of floodgates opened from that moment, and the Kelly song hadn't even come out yet. She got pregnant. The album got pushed, like, a year and a half. It was just my confidence, I think, of knowing, oh, wait, I wrote something. And I worship Kelly Clarkson as well.

[Caleb Herron]

Same.

[Justin Tranter]

So my first cut is with, like, one of my favorite singers of all time. Like, Ms. Since youe've Been Gone wants my song. This is awesome. And then it also freed me creatively of. I wasn't thinking about, what am I gonna wear when I sing this? How am I. What cartwheel am I gonna do during the guitar solo, it just took me out of thinking about myself and just putting the song first. Yeah. I wasn't even writing it for Kelly Clarkson. I just wrote a song that I loved, and it found a home that I was very proud of. And then my first hit was Fall Out Boys Centuries, which is so funny because it became a huge hit because it was the theme song for college football that year.

[Caleb Herron]

For me, for a person like you, that's just a dream. That's a dream.

[Justin Tranter]

And. And I actually wrote it. The lyric, you'll remember me for centuries. It came to me while watching Marsha P. Johnson documentary on YouTube. I swear.

[Caleb Herron]

I swear, Justin. This means the world to me. This means the world to me.

[Justin Tranter]

So, like, all of these football people are, like, going crazy.

[Caleb Herron]

You will remember me for six. Meanwhile, Marsha P. Johnson looking down over them. Yeah. From the heavens.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah. It's a Marsha P. Johnson theme song is a football anthem.

[Caleb Herron]

What year was Centuries?

[Justin Tranter]

It came out in the fall of 2014.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. I remember it having a big moment. And I think my high school football team. I was in college by then, but I think my high school football team might have been posting Facebook hit clips to it, truly using it as the soundtrack of highlight reels.

[Justin Tranter]

It was in that. So that the Kelly Clarkson cut changed my life privately. And the Fall Out Boy centuries, the football song changed it publicly.

[Caleb Herron]

The football song. That is so. It also just speaks to something that I. We were just talking to fortune. Do you know Fortune Feimster?

[Justin Tranter]

I mean, I've met her once or twice, and I worship her.

[Caleb Herron]

She's one of the funniest people around.

[Justin Tranter]

Don't. I wish I knew her. I wish we were friends. But I, of course, know who you're talking about.

[Caleb Herron]

We. We need. That dinner needs to happen.

[Justin Tranter]

Done.

[Caleb Herron]

But we were talking yesterday about this thing that I'm just constantly reminded of, which is, like, the. The best way to be succeeding is to have succeeded, and you have to just get. That's why it's so hard. And people are like, I just need a break. I just need a chance. And it's true.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And, like, getting Kelly to cut that song is like. Yeah. Whether it was. It's sometimes hard to say whether it's, like, internal or external. Is it people talking about the fact that you had a success? Is it just you knowing and moving through the world like you've had a success? But whatever it is, I think you have to get a bunch of breaks in a successful, creative career, especially now.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

But that first big one, that's really something. It is. Like, it kind of makes all the other things move in a row after it.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

You know, and who knows if it's internal or external or what? But that is. The thing is you just need a really good win.

[Justin Tranter]

Yep.

[Caleb Herron]

And then you're kind of winning because you've won.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. It's interesting.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah. And I think it is internal and external. It's like knowing, okay, I'm not crazy. I'm good enough to do this.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Even if the world. No one's heard the song yet. No one's. Whatever job someone booked, and the world has no clue you booked the job, it's knowing internally, I'm not crazy. I actually deserve to do this. And then when it does become external, I think it hopefully gives you the confidence to keep going. Some people, the external success terrifies them, and they feel it makes them very insecure. I luckily was not that person.

[Caleb Herron]

Insecurity didn't enter the picture. Tell me more.

[Justin Tranter]

Which song do you like? Tell Me More. Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

So then you start doing that, and then. So what is a session? If this question sucks, we can cut it. But what is it? It's interesting to me because I'm such a fan of you and what you do, and you know that. But, like, what does a session look like? Like an artist says, like, I want to do a session with Justin Tranter because I have taste and ears. And then what does it look like? Like, do you usually do it at your house? How do you start it?

[Justin Tranter]

Like, Yeah, I have a lot of producers and writers work out of their houses because I have a publishing company of writers and producers signed to me. I love them, but I don't want them in my house.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, this is facet.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah, facet. There's records and publishing. I love them. I just don't need 22 year olds in my house until 2am that's just not my vibe. So I have a studio in West Hollywood. Do you know I shouldn't say where it is. I almost said where it was.

[Caleb Herron]

Because basically here's the code to the front door.

[Justin Tranter]

Actually, it's a really funny story where it is, but. So that's why I was about to tell it. But I'm not gonna tell it because that'd be really bad. I'll tell you later. But so yeah, you come to my studio and we normally just talk. And I just like talk for at least minimum half an hour, hopefully an hour to just like figure out where the person is at.

[Caleb Herron]

Are you taking notes or you just locked it? We're just chatting.

[Justin Tranter]

I will take mental notes and then if someone says something that is so good, I will be like, I'm so sorry, I have to pause. Cause that's probably our song title and I don't want to forget it. Yeah, normally it's just like, let me like see where you're at. And I will then when we're done talking, be like, you know, when you said this thing 20 minutes ago, I think that's a really great song.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Cause I want, you know, the artist has to go. They have to like answer the same 12 questions about this song for like the whole six months they're promoting it. If it's a hit, they have to answer it for the rest of their life. They have to sing it for the rest of their life. If it's a hit, I want them to really feel like it's theirs, you know, So, I mean, a lot of artists of course are great co writers, you know, I mean, Chapel Roan's one of the greatest songwriters ever. Like when I'm writing with her, that is a real songwriter. But even the writers who, the artists who aren't great songwriters, I still want them to feel like it's their song. Like that they came to me for a reason. Cause I'm gonna listen to them and I care about whatever's happening in their life. If it's sad, if it's fun, if it's happy, if it's sexy, I want them to be like this. This was my snapshot of this moment in my life. So we just talk for a while and sometimes I will just turn exactly what they said into a lyric.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

My favorite story for that is when I worked with the chicks and there's a song called Sleep at Night.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

And I mean, this is all in the song. So I'm not spilling any tea, but Queen Natalie just said, my husband's girlfriend's husband just called me. How fucked up is that?

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

And I was like, well, that entire. Don't touch that.

[Caleb Herron]

Don't touch that. That's it.

[Justin Tranter]

And I will find a melody that goes with exact every. I'm not changing a syllable of what you just said.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Because that's the craziest thing I've ever heard. And it's just in the song. Yeah. So, you know, she's someone who has always put her life diary entry in the song, you know, but even with artists who aren't used to that, I really want them to have that experience. And so. And like I said, even if it's like fun and goofy, you know, like Cake by the Ocean, which is one of my favorite songs I've ever co written like that in that moment, that was Joe Jonas. Truth. He's fucking hot as shit and he's really goofy. It was like. And we spent three days trying to be serious and, like, he just wasn't. He was really happy in that moment in his life. And, like, that's what we needed to write.

[Caleb Herron]

It was time for a happy, silly song.

[Justin Tranter]

It was time for a sex song where we just talked about food the whole time.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah. And so I love. That's my favorite part of the process is like, let me get you to your truth. Even if your truth is Cake by the Ocean, I'm gonna get you there.

[Caleb Herron]

Hell yeah. And Gaslighter. You wrote two or three songs on that record, right?

[Justin Tranter]

I think four.

[Caleb Herron]

Four. Yeah. And I'm selling you short.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Four I love. I mean, the Chicks are like my north star. That's like my. Yeah. Natalie Maines. I just adore them and have my whole life because also I think they exhibit. The music is incredible. I've always loved. Even as a kid listening to the Chicks albums, I was like, this is fucking good. There's upbeat, there's slow and sad, but it's beautiful. Her voice is amazing. The lyrics are incredible. And. But then also just the. Like, her. Just the way they talked about, like, body image and the way that people talked about them in the press and her political stand, obviously, with the whole George Bush and the Iraq war thing, like, the whole thing, I just was like, yeah. I really respect these people as like true, genuine artists who live in the real world that we live in.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And then also the work is incredible, which is great.

[Justin Tranter]

I mean, they're just so. And it's also like one of those moments, like, watching her sing in the studio, like, this far away from me, you're like, oh, that's just your voice.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. Like you can sing like that.

[Justin Tranter]

That's just. That sound just comes out of your face.

[Caleb Herron]

She go to Berkeley as well?

[Justin Tranter]

I think she went to Berkeley, like, for briefly. Like, most people, like, because most people go to Berkeley are so talented. They don't stay right. Like, they, like. I think, like, the dropout rate is something crazy. Like 85%.

[Caleb Herron]

That's almost like a selling point.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

It's like, come here and if you're good, you'll drop out.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah. Now, I graduated, but I got my degree. Yeah. But I went ahead and got my degree. I mean, my dad went into, like, a serious amount of credit card debt to put me through, like, the first couple years of Berkeley. So the thought of, like, being like, actually, I'm going to New York. Cause I'm fierce. Like, I just couldn't do that to him, you know, I just couldn't. Like, it ruined his credits to this day. So I can't.

[Caleb Herron]

You know, a not small number of people probably drop out of Berkeley thinking that they're the next big thing and it turns out to be a huge mistake. Like, it's not a surefire game to play.

[Justin Tranter]

Exactly.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. But.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah, no, that's like, Natalie. That's just her voice. Like Christina Aguilera. That's just her voice. Gwen Stefani. That's just her voice. Brittany. That's just her fucking voice. She's not putting on the sexy Brittany voice. No, that's just how she sings. Like, those moments for me are always like, wow, this is my job.

[Caleb Herron]

I'm sure you're at least at this point in good luck, babe. Having been out for as long as it is, you're probably a little tired of talking about it.

[Justin Tranter]

No, it's my. It's for many reasons. I'm not tired of talking about it. Because one, it's like, I think my favorite song of my entire career. And two, it helped launch, like, the first ever pop star who started their career out of the closet. That's never happened before.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Like, we've never had a pop star who started it from major label release number one was out of the clock, like, that's never happened before. And three, it's like, puts where I'm a full decade of having hits, which I do not take for granted at all. It's like to be this gay in a really bro y business, like really bro y. I still get shocked to this day of how bro y the music business is having success for 10 years, I do not take lightly at all. So I'm never tired of talking about Good Luck Babe.

[Caleb Herron]

Well, there's a lot of Chapel fans, myself included, who will probably be listening to this. And I'm wondering if we could talk for just a second about like, how Good Luck Babe happened. Like, what. What is the process that you and Chapel went through to end up on just what is arguably like one of the best songs of at least the last decade, if not, you know, very, very sweet.

[Justin Tranter]

So we had already written together a couple times. We did a song called My Kink is Karma. We wrote that like nine months before we wrote Good Luck Babe. So we already had a vibe and like, she's saying at like a charity concert I was throwing in my backyard, you know, we had like gone to a couple parties together, so we were friends. And so it was a really actually. And I just told Kim Petrus story. Me and Dan Nigro were supposed to had a session booked with Kim Petras for that day. And because the Kim Sam Smith song was going so crazy, she had to like fly somewhere to do more promo for that for Unholy, one of the best songs ever. So Dan just texted me, he's like, hey, I don't know if you heard yet, but like, Kim can't be there tomorrow. Should Kaylee just come? And I was like, yeah, anytime I can write with Chapel. That's fucking amazing. Tell Kaylee to be there. And so we have Kim Petras to thank for getting too famous for Shout.

[Caleb Herron]

Out Kim for real.

[Justin Tranter]

Shout Out Kim Shout Out Kim for real. So, yeah, we just got in the room and you know, Chapel and Dan Nigro do everything together. Literally, like every song she's released in this new era of her of Chapel has been. So the two of them really have a thing. And I'm just like lucky to be sort of like the third for the day spice up the relationship.

[Caleb Herron]

I come in, I cause a little drama.

[Justin Tranter]

But she just was telling me about a very personal story in her life, which I think so many queer people can relate to, but actually everyone can of like being like, I know this motherfucker is in love with me. And they just Can't. They can't deal with it.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Which I think straight people feel all the time. But for queer people, it's a whole other level. Because if the person that you know is in love with you is not out yet or not out to themselves yet or wherever, then. Then the stakes are just way higher.

[Caleb Herron]

So, yeah, being into someone always will end up meaning something for you, logistically. But if you think that you're straight and you're into someone who would challenge that, now it also means something about.

[Justin Tranter]

About. Yes.

[Caleb Herron]

Which is a different thing.

[Justin Tranter]

It's a very different thing. So that was it. She just was telling me of what was going on with this woman in her life, and we just started writing. And, you know, it's one of the. A lot of times in sessions, you'll. In writing sessions, you'll say things like, you know, not this, but, like, the idea of, like, you know, like, you'd have to stop the world to stop the feeling.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Like. And then like, oh, actually, let's just say that I think. I think probably 70% of the times they go, not this, but something that means this. And then you actually just say the thing that you were like, don't say that you're actually. No, let's just say that that's how.

[Caleb Herron]

Most great I feel. Like stories get broken or jokes happen in writers rooms. Is that a team full of TV writers? Someone will be like, okay, this is house numbers, or this is bad pitch, or this is ballpark. They'll be like, this is the bad pitch version. And then they say something that ends up just being the thing.

[Justin Tranter]

The thing?

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, it's like, it, like, eases. Everyone's like, hey, don't worry, we don't have to commit to this. But what if it was this? It does something. It's kind of interesting in that same way where it almost, like, puts everyone's minds at ease to see if they could accept it as the thing.

[Justin Tranter]

Well, I also feel like for myself, when I'm saying the qualifier before I say the thing until I actually say it out loud, once I hear it out loud, I'm like, oh, no, that is fierce.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, actually, that works.

[Justin Tranter]

That actually has worked. So you're qualifying it for yourself, too, because you're like. Until I hear these words come out of my mouth, I don't know if they're actually good.

[Caleb Herron]

Accidentally fierce on purpose. The Justin Tranter story. Okay. Yeah. So then, yeah, you're just. You're sitting there talking about this thing, and then. So it started with a conversation about this thing that she was going through, and then it just turns into this great, beautiful song somehow. Like that.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah. And Chapel and Dan's process is like, the times I've written with them. We write and, like, the meat of the song is there, but they're gonna go and, like, obsess over the details for a while.

[Caleb Herron]

Are you writing to a melody when that's happening, or are you purely thinking about lyrics at that point?

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah, no, I mean, it's both. It's. Sometimes you write a song and the song started because someone just had a great melody with no lyrics, and then you find a lyric that goes to it. But my preferred way of writing is always Cause for me, I'm like, well, but this song should sound like what we're talking about, or if. If it sounds very different from what we're talking about. That needs to be an intentional choice.

[Caleb Herron]

It's like a choice. Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah. So I much prefer to start with, like, we know what this song is about, and then let's make it sound like what it's about.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. And if it ends up being a sad song with a happy beat, we're doing that on purpose.

[Justin Tranter]

It's intentional.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Interesting.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Interesting.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

What's so true to you, Justin?

[Justin Tranter]

What's so true to me? Yeah. What is so true to me? What is so true to me is that I think for. I love caring.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

I love, like, wanting greatness, and I love wanting to laugh really hard and to have a lot of fun and to, like, have great sex. I think I. Caring is very true to me. And I think that we're in a time where, like, caring people think it's, like, cringe and you're trying too hard, bitch. If you aren't trying too hard, what are you doing? The world's ending.

[Caleb Herron]

Try harder.

[Justin Tranter]

Try harder to have more fun. Try harder to make better art. Like, try. The phrase that try hard is an insult is so crazy.

[Caleb Herron]

That's nuts.

[Justin Tranter]

I am a try hard. I try very hard. Yes, I have talent, but not really. I just try. I just try really hard.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. Giving a fuck is deeply chic. Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

It's deep.

[Caleb Herron]

It's very cheap.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah. What's so true to you today, Justin?

[Caleb Herron]

You are just dead set on turning this whole show around on me, and I've just about had it.

[Justin Tranter]

But stop booking fans on your show. It's just gonna happen.

[Caleb Herron]

I can. It's good for my ego.

[Justin Tranter]

God.

[Caleb Herron]

What's so true to me today? That yours really rang true to me. I like that. I'VE been thinking about that a lot. We've been saying on this show for a minute, if you wanna be happy, you have to climb Cringe Mountain. Yeah. What is so true to me today? I've been really obsessed with like the idea of process lately and being. Being obsessed with. I've been thinking obviously a lot about AI and how much I hate it. And we just recently actually, I'll talk about this. We turned down a huge brand deal for this show for an AI thing that was like life changing money. And the reason is because I fucking hate it. And during the course of interrogating whether we should. And that's not for pats on the back. Everyone makes choices every day about business. But that in the course of thinking about whether or not we would do that, I've just been thinking a lot about process and the fact that even if AI could make a perfect comedy script or a perfect song, that the antidote to that is people who give a fuck about how it came about and we have to be obsessed with how things come to be and not just how they turn out.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And I've been thinking about that in my own work and I'm working on a project right now that I'm going to film in June that I'm like very, very excited about. And so I'm just thinking that I'm in process for. So I've just been thinking a lot about like, I guess my so true for today and right now would be like, we need to more than ever be obsessed with process and the way that things come to be. Because it makes stuff better and because it gives value then to. If it doesn't turn out the way you want to. If you write an incredible movie script and no one buys it or makes it, if you really truly value process and get value from the process, then it was still worthwhile.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

If no one gives you $12 million to make your great film, but you wrote a great film and you're somebody who genuinely loves and takes pleasure from the process.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Then it was no time wasted. And I think, especially in. In. I've been thinking about it a lot in relation to AI and if you.

[Justin Tranter]

Can'T do that, if you're not like, there's so many songs that I write that no one's ever going to hear. And I think that that's great.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Like, because I'm learning something every day and I'm like, it is a muscle. Like, I took the, like first year and a half off of COVID because my parents moved in with me and the thought of getting them sick somehow just like haunted my dreams. So I just like, did not. We just like stayed in the house for a year and a half together and it was actually a blast. I'm very lucky. But coming out of it, it took me a while to write a good song again because it is. The process is so important. And if you can't, doesn't matter how naturally good you are at something, if you're not in the process, you're just gonna be rusty. Yeah, it's like the process is the best part. I actually, like, did a whole AI thing because I got approached and I was so brutal to them. I've said this publicly. It was with Google and YouTube. I was so brutal to them about how much it terrified me and how I thought it was gonna like, hurt songwriters deeply. And I assumed they would never talk to me again. And because of that, they wanted to like, to like, pay me to be even more involved. And I had to make like a really serious choice of like, do I wanna be in the room as a songwriter advocate with this technology and like raising my hand anytime I was concerned, or I do wanna just wanna say fuck off. And it was a hard choice. It was a really hard choice. Like, I thought about it as long as I could until they were like, you either decide now or we're gonna go to somebody else. And I did it. And it was scary, but also not well.

[Caleb Herron]

What do you think about that? I mean, what do you think about AI and protecting songwriters and artists? Like, what, how. What is the relationship between this technology that is. I don't have answers. I have, I have concerns. But a technology that is certainly visibly presently happening, and art forms that are at least in some ways inherently threatened by it, how are those gonna interplay and what are we gonna do?

[Justin Tranter]

For me, it was the reason I. One of the main reasons I said yes is because when the music business has tried to resist technology so many times and we always lose, and then you have Metallica suing 12 year olds for Napster. It's just like, it's never. It's never. It's just never. And listen, nothing else matters. It's a great song. But suing minors was crazy. You know what I mean?

[Caleb Herron]

Hey, that was nuts.

[Justin Tranter]

Arresting. You know what's so true to me? Arresting teenagers for listening to your music is wild.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you're a fan. I'll see you in court, bitch. You preteen bitch.

[Justin Tranter]

Literally a 12 year old was taken out in Handcuffs. Do you guys remember this?

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

A handcuffs 12 year old.

[Caleb Herron]

They're like, I'm glad you like the music. High school's gonna be tough from behind bars.

[Justin Tranter]

So my thought was like, the amount of times that the music business has been like technology. Ew. And lost miserably. Just like the business just like bled bleeds money for like a decade every time. We're like, no. So I was like, all right, let me at least be in the room. Lin Manuel. And just like, see what happens. That was a Hamilton reference. Apparently it didn't go over well. That's fine.

[Caleb Herron]

Never seen it. Sorry, Lynn.

[Justin Tranter]

And what I liked about it is I could see ways that it could be a helpful tool, but it has no taste. And so it didn't scare me as much as the first day. They showed me a couple little things. I was so scared and told them that. Which is why they said, let's go deeper. We like that you're being so honest. And then once I got in there, I was like, there's no. I mean, famous last words, like watch it have great taste tomorrow. But there was no taste at all. So I just wasn't. It didn't scare me in the least bit. And I was like, I can see where not to get too in the weeds. But there's a thing called splice that a lot of producers use that are royalty free samples. Very famous. And this is an amazing song. So I'm not shading the song, but Espresso. Sabrina Carpenter. A good chunk of that track is built on royalty free samples. Amazing song. Amy Allen, one of the greatest songwriters in the world. This is not Shade is royalty free samples. So AI in. In my world, looking at, oh, they could like, hey, give me a weird little guitar riff. And then a producer is going to take that guitar riff and still has to build a whole song out of it. In those ways, if it in the music business at least there's already all these random cheat codes that are building hit songs right now. Yeah. So if AI can just give us a couple more cheat codes. But it's still, you know, Espresso is four unbelievable songwriters making that song. But using a little help. If AI becomes another way to have a little help, I'm okay with it. Obviously replacing songwriters is really bad for me and for my friends. And so it definitely is scary. And I don't know. I still don't know how to feel about it. It like 100%. There's no way to say what's right or wrong about it. But I Was not as. As brave as you. I. I said yes to the AI.

[Caleb Herron]

It's not bravery. It's. It's the. You and I are having the exact same feeling, which is. I don't know how to feel about it.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And so in the moment, I am in a position where I. I didn't have to say yes to it, thankfully. And so I chose not to because I don't know my feelings. And we talked to. The three of us, talked a lot about. I was like, I have no judgment. Judgment. And we were all like, if we did it, we would make it make sense for us. Like, I wouldn't have judgment. I have friends. The exact same brand partnership, actually. I have friends who did it.

[Justin Tranter]

Said yes. Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And I was like, good for you. Like, to me, it's just a. I don't. I just distrust the people in charge so much.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And I just distrust CEOs and business executives and billionaires so much that I don't. I just don't think they actually care about any of us.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And I. I just. I've seen how they will replace us at any fucking chance. And that. I just think if there's a way for them to do it easier, it really scares me. And we're already. It's already fucked. I mean, TV writing, as one example, is like a staff writer on Modern Family had multiple houses. You were. As a staff writer. Now if you staff. It is so unbelievable how bad TV has gotten. People can't make a living at it. You're having to staff multiple times a year to make a living, and the cost of living keeps going up and the wages stagnate. It's just. Yeah. I have real, real concerns about it, and I have no answers.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

And that's my truth.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

But here's another truth for you. We have a segment for you, Justin.

[Justin Tranter]

Oh, my God, I can't wait.

[Caleb Herron]

And it's the true or false, which you might know. I'm gonna read you 15 statements. Okay. And you're gonna tell me as quickly as you can if you think that what I just said is true or false. And if you get 10 or more correct, we're gonna give you 50 US dollars, which, Justin, I just know it's gonna change things for you. I've been to your house. It was a real dump. I'm hoping that we can get you into a nicer place with this. 50 bucks has one of the most gorgeous homes I've ever seen. Are you ready?

[Justin Tranter]

I mean, I'm gonna get all this wrong but yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

Okay. The longest wedding veil on record was four miles long.

[Justin Tranter]

Just because whoever, whatever queen did that, I want to bow down to her. I just want to say it's true. Because fierce for her, and it is true.

[Caleb Herron]

Yay. Kool Aid was invented in Chicago.

[Justin Tranter]

Oh, my God. I should know this, being from Chicago. Ish. I think that's false.

[Caleb Herron]

It is false. It's Hastings, Nebraska. The first number to be spelled using the letter A is 1000.

[Justin Tranter]

Wait, say that again.

[Caleb Herron]

The first number to be spelled that uses the letter A is 1000.

[Justin Tranter]

I can't even spell my name half the time. I don't know. I'm gonna say false.

[Caleb Herron]

It's true. And it's a really tough question to wrap your head around.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

The Chicago Academy for the Arts was founded in 1944. False was 1981. The Goosebumps books were written by Lemony Snicket.

[Justin Tranter]

No, he's a character. He's not a writer. Right.

[Caleb Herron]

False. It was R.L. stine. Movie trailers were originally shown after the movie.

[Justin Tranter]

I'm gonna say true cause why not? There used to be newsreels before the movie.

[Caleb Herron]

This is true.

[Justin Tranter]

Yeah.

[Caleb Herron]

You are doing so good. The very first hot air balloon took flight in 1783.

[Justin Tranter]

I feel like that that's false. Because if I hope it's false because I wouldn't trust someone in 1783 in an air balloon. That seems wild.

[Caleb Herron]

And yet someone did. It's true. No.

[Justin Tranter]

Wow.

[Caleb Herron]

Courtney Love was born in Ireland.

[Justin Tranter]

That I really should know this. And if I get this wrong, she's going to fucking kill me. I know she spent time in Ireland, but I don't think she was born there. False.

[Caleb Herron]

Are you sure?

[Justin Tranter]

Is it true?

[Caleb Herron]

We had to pick.

[Justin Tranter]

I mean, she was. There was times in San Francisco. Fuck, she's gonna kill me. And when. Trust. At some point you guys are gonna know why it's really bad that I'm getting this wrong. I'm gonna say false.

[Caleb Herron]

It's false. Yes. Shout out to Courtney. San Francisco. Taco Bell is older than the band Earth, Wind and Fire.

[Justin Tranter]

True.

[Caleb Herron]

That is true. Squids have beaks.

[Justin Tranter]

That's just like whoever wrote this question. Get a life.

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah. Truly.

[Justin Tranter]

Like. Do you know that porn exists?

[Caleb Herron]

Well, we just spent some time in Texas and it doesn't down there anymore, so.

[Justin Tranter]

Wait, do squids have beaks?

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah.

[Justin Tranter]

Oh, God. That is a wild one. I'm gonna say true just because I feel like it's. Why else would you write that if it wasn't true?

[Caleb Herron]

It's true.

[Justin Tranter]

Okay, great.

[Caleb Herron]

US Paper currency is made of a blend of cotton and linen.

[Justin Tranter]

No one else thinks that question is just inherently funny.

[Caleb Herron]

It really tickled you just like, what?

[Justin Tranter]

You guys for real need we get.

[Caleb Herron]

Bored on this show? We have to do things like the.

[Justin Tranter]

That's false.

[Caleb Herron]

That's true.

[Justin Tranter]

Wait, cotton and linen.

[Caleb Herron]

Cotton and linen.

[Justin Tranter]

The thing that we touch every day.

[Caleb Herron]

Yes. Money.

[Justin Tranter]

Okay.

[Caleb Herron]

Iowa produces the most popcorn in the U.S. i just.

[Justin Tranter]

I don't like Iowa, so I want to take it from them, even if it is there. So I'm gonna say false, even if it's not false.

[Caleb Herron]

It's Nebraska. Wow. Fallout Boy was formed in Wilmette, Illinois.

[Justin Tranter]

That is true.

[Caleb Herron]

That is true. A species of sunflower grows on the surface of Mars.

[Justin Tranter]

No.

[Caleb Herron]

Did you say false? It is false. Disneyland sells Pepsi products.

[Justin Tranter]

Oh, I should know this. I have a really dear friend of mine. His name's Breedlove. I'm shouting him out. Cause you should look him up. He gave himself that name, by the way, in case you were curious. He chose Breedlove, which is problematic, but also fabulous. He is a Disney YouTuber and he's amazing. We've discussed. He mainly reviews food and beverage at Disney. I think it's true.

[Caleb Herron]

False. It's coke only. But how did justin do 11? That is so good.

[Justin Tranter]

Out of how many?

[Caleb Herron]

15. 11 out of 15 is crazy.

[Justin Tranter]

Is that good?

[Caleb Herron]

Yeah, we like that.

[Justin Tranter]

Wow, that's really good.

[Caleb Herron]

Everybody.

[Justin Tranter]

Just saying, this is happiness. Applaud yourself. Do you know sometimes I wake up applauding.

[Caleb Herron]

No, you do not.

[Justin Tranter]

Swear on my life, Justin Tranter. I swear on my fucking life, Justin Tranter. I wake up being like, ah, she did it again. She survived. Revived the night with her heart monitor. One more time.

[Caleb Herron]

Justin Tranter wakes up. Applauding is likely the episode title. I mean, good Lord, Justin, I just love you and think the world of you.

[Justin Tranter]

Thank you.

[Caleb Herron]

Thank you so much for doing it.

[Justin Tranter]

And it's. Honestly, it's an honor. I was like, from minute, like, two to five, I was actually nervous. And I'm never nervous, ever. And it wasn't because, like, the conversation got weird for a minute, two to five. It was great. I just. I am, like, a genuine fan of yours.

[Caleb Herron]

You're too sweet.

[Justin Tranter]

I know that's weird to say to people that you've met in real life, but I am a fan of yours. And so thank you so much for having me here.

[Caleb Herron]

It couldn't be more mutual.

[Justin Tranter]

Thank you.

[Caleb Herron]

I just think the world of you. Thanks for doing it. Of course.

[Justin Tranter]

Thank you for having me.

[Caleb Herron]

Justin Tranter. We did it, everybody. That was a headgum podcast. Hey, I'm Tony Hale. I'm Matt Oberg.

[Justin Tranter]

And I'm Kristen Schall.

[Caleb Herron]

And we're going to be hosting the.

[Justin Tranter]

New podcast, the Extraordinarians, where we are.

[Caleb Herron]

Going to be interviewing extraordinary people doing extraordinary things, things that we have never.

[Justin Tranter]

And probably will never do. We talk to people who have broken.

[Caleb Herron]

Records on slack lines, suspended by hot air balloons. We're talking to people who have done multiple flips on trampolines. You'll have to tune in to find out how many flips they did.

[Justin Tranter]

Subscribe to Extraordinarians on Spotify, Apple Podcast, Pocket Cast, or wherever you get your podcast and watch videos.

[Caleb Herron]

There's new episodes that we release it every Wednesday. We do. I've never seen you cry before. I know. I don't know.

[Justin Tranter]

This is upsetting for all of us. They don't let us break for lunch. They do the podcast. It's so competitive. They make you just talking.

[Caleb Herron]

Guys, we're watching a spin out.

[Justin Tranter]

Please subscribe.

[Caleb Herron]

Oh, man. Extraordinarians.