Zach Zimmerman is Not Evil

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Zach Zimmerman is Not Evil"

So True with Caleb Hearon (Headgum) -- November 13, 2025
Guest: Zach Zimmerman

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt, sharp, and unflinchingly funny episode, beloved host Caleb Hearon sits down with comedian and writer Zach Zimmerman. As they "sort it all out and identify what’s really real," Zach unpacks a transformative—and mostly off-limits—summer, navigates family dynamics, shares harrowing and hilarious stories from online dating, and the pair reflect on the limits and rewards of vulnerability, setting boundaries, and the nature of being "good" or "evil." The conversation is marked by quick-witted banter, moments of real honesty, and musings on religion, sexuality, family, and the art of comedy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Boundaries and Sharing in Comedy

• Zach’s approach to boundaries: Zach jokes about coming into the podcast with a list of 10 off-limit topics, highlighting the tension comedians feel between vulnerability and self-protection.
  • (02:05) Zach: “Yep. It's called boundaries, baby. I'm learning what they are.”
  • (02:39) Zach: “That's what she loves about me. I, like, open up and I share my innards so people can, like, poke around. … But I'm realizing, like, oh, not everyone has—I'm sort of violating my own boundary now.”
• On the dangers of oversharing: They discuss the risks of openness, especially in the comedy world, and the importance of withholding aspects of yourself ("giving them the code to the safe").
  • (03:06) Caleb: “Well, you're giving them the code to the safe.”

Identity, Background, and Location

• Zach’s upbringing: Raised evangelical and navigating a religious family, Zach is now exploring healthier boundaries ("the summer I turned broken") and learning to put himself first.
• Regional identity: Funny banter on whether Missouri is Midwest or South, illustrating the duo's knack for small, relatable observations.
  • (05:14) Caleb: “Some people talk about Missouri as the south, but … there's really two Missouris and one of them is Southern, One of them is Midwestern. I am squarely from the Midwestern portion.”

Dating App Horror Stories & Modern Romance

• Zach’s catfishing/extortion story: Zach shares a cautionary tale about being scammed on Grindr by someone posing as a trans woman, who tried to blackmail him with fake nudes and personal info.
  • (07:27) Zach: “This scammer has sent a report of my name. They have my address, my age, a list of possible family members… and then a picture of a penis, which is not my penis. I never sent this.”
  • (08:59) Zach: “I'm just texting my—like, that's not my dick, Mom, that's not my dick. And I think she was most offended by just being reminded that I'm queer in her inbox.”
• Loss of imagination in hookup culture: Both bemoan the "death of ambiguity" with explicit photo sharing, longing for more mystique and playfulness.
  • (11:01) Zach: “My big beef with Grindr right now isn't the bots. It's the death of imagination. People … are showing me a dick in your ass. … Write a poem!”
  • (12:22) Caleb: “I'm like. The whole fun is that we, like, meet each other, we make out for a little bit … You've removed the whole entire enjoyment of the process.”

Gender, Power Dynamics, and Conflict

• "Tell a man no, get ready for a show": Zach’s catchphrase for the summer. He notes how men often react theatrically or poorly to even small rejections or refusals.
  • (13:18) Zach: “Tell a man no, get ready for a show. All you have to do is tell a man a little itty bitty no. They will put on a production … it shows everything about the person.”
• Navigating, naming, and owning boundaries in relationships and dating.
  • (15:16) Zach: “Maintain your ‘no’; don’t personalize their reaction. … It's not to hold firm to it. Don’t give in.”

Family, Love, and Conditionality

• Mother-son dynamics: Zach reveals a powerful, painful realization: the love he receives from his evangelical mother may not be unconditional after all.
  • (22:54) Zach: “That she loves me unconditionally was a lie.”
  • (22:57) Zach shares a moment when his mom said she’d been “praying” he would date a woman, which was "funny and hurtful at the same time."
• Trying to ‘fix’ family members: Zach talks about his book-in-progress, Shipmother, chronicling his attempt to change his mother’s religious/political beliefs via a cruise—realizing along the way that “trying to fix her” has distracted from discovering himself.
  • (21:28) Zach: "What I learned, me being obsessed with her... was at the expense of me being obsessed with myself and learning who I am."
• Conditional love and parental wounds: They reflect on how childhood parental support—or lack thereof—has shaped their adult confidence and relationships.

The Nature of Good, Evil, and Morality

• Do we all have the capacity for great evil? Spirited back-and-forth on the classic 'button' dilemma and whether power corrupts, with both hosts poking holes in each other’s definitions and hypotheticals.
  • (44:45) Zach: “One button kills a man, but you get a billion dollars.”
  • (47:40) Caleb: “I really don't think I would take that button. ... I wouldn't.”
• God, Jesus, Religion, and Power: Zach shares a 'hot take' about the narratives around God and Jesus—posing God as the "original narcissist" and arguing people prefer identifying with God’s power rather than Jesus’ sacrifice.
  • (53:05) Zach: “God, to me, is the original narcissist. ... God is evil. Jesus was good.”
  • (53:25) Zach: “Nobody wants to be Jesus … because Jesus is harder.”

Therapy & Self-knowledge

• Different kinds of therapy: Zach and Caleb swap stories about therapists, the struggle to find a good fit, and whether therapy is always helpful.
  • (19:48) Zach: "Therapist beats dad. ... Therapist is dad. ... Or sort of the non judgmental, shameless, kind, loving and supportive father figure."
• Personal growth: Zach describes being in the midst of learning who he is after years of prioritizing others’ needs, catalyzed by recent personal upheaval.
  • (20:53) Zach: "I'm starting a process of learning who I am. Post putting other people's needs before mine."

Comedy, Vulnerability, and 'When Is It Ready?'

• When to take personal material to the stage: Both discuss striking the right balance between authenticity and exploitation of pain, with a nod to Tig Notaro’s legendary cancer set as a masterclass in this tightrope walk.
  • (59:57) Caleb: “It is simply not any audience's responsibility to, like, caretake for you through whatever shit you're going through. You better be making them laugh.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On boundaries in comedy:
  Caleb (03:06): “Well, you're giving them the code to the safe.”
• On family and conditional love:
  Zach (22:54): “That she loves me unconditionally was a lie.”
• On apps and nudes:
  Caleb (12:22): “The whole fun is that we, like, meet each other, we make out for a little bit... You've removed the whole entire enjoyment of the process.”
• On power, morality, and evil:
  Zach (47:30): “One button kills a man, but you get a billion dollars.” Caleb (47:42): “I really don't think I would take that button.”
• On God and Jesus:
  Zach (53:05): “God, to me, is the original narcissist. ... God is evil. Jesus was good.”
• On vulnerability and healing:
  Zach (56:45): “I didn't mean it as a bit. But you're right, it is quite a funny bit.”
• On giving and receiving love:
  Zach (64:03): “Love is listening. Love is noticing. Love is... commitment to one’s spiritual growth, the willingness to extend oneself.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Boundaries and sharing as comics: 02:05–04:32
• Catfishing/Grindr scam story: 06:32–09:59
• Loss of mystery in dating apps, nudes & LPSG: 10:53–12:39
• ‘Tell a man no, get ready for a show’/reactions to boundaries: 13:18–15:19
• Family love/conditionality/‘Shipmother’ book: 21:01–23:39
• Therapists as dads; learning selfhood: 19:00–21:01
• Morality, evil, and the philosophical ‘button’ dilemma: 43:09–47:42
• God vs. Jesus—hot takes on religion: 53:05–54:11
• When is something ready for stage? 57:52–61:24
• Rapid-fire True/False segment: 66:34–69:16
• Closing segment: “What is so true to you?”/acts of love: 62:06–65:20

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Tone & Highlighted Moments

• Jokes about not being able to discuss Zach’s transformative summer become both an intentional running gag (“That was rude. One of the funniest things you’ve done...”) and an honest reflection on the need for processing before public sharing.
• Heartfelt moments land side-by-side with playful ribbing about podcasts, masculinity, and sexuality.
• Candid, affirming exchanges about queer love, family wounds, therapy, and the little acts of care that define community.

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Takeaways

• The episode is a smart, unsparing, but loving look at the navigation of personal boundaries, especially for comedians who make life into material.
• Themes of conditional vs. unconditional love (especially parental), self-knowledge, queer dating, and the playful yet serious dance between being "good" or "evil" run throughout.
• Both Caleb and Zach bring a blend of insight, wit, and warmth, making the episode a rewarding listen for anyone wrestling with vulnerability, family, and the quest to be “so true.”

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[Find Zach Zimmerman online at: Instagram (@zzdoublezz), TikTok & Twitter, "Surprise Me" stand-up special on YouTube, and his book "Is It Hot in Here (Or Am I Suffering for All Eternity for the Sins I Committed on Earth)" wherever books are sold.]

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

There's a troll who can never tell.

[A]

A lie one more time.

[B]

There's a troll who can never tell.

[A]

A lie a third time. Just to make sure we have it.

[B]

You got it.

[A]

How are you sugar?

[B]

I'm hanging in there.

[A]

Yeah. What does that mean?

[B]

Living, love and learning.

[A]

What can you told me about 10 topics. I think you're the first guest ever to walk in and tell me 10 things I didn't know that I'm not allowed to talk about.

[B]

Yep. It's called boundaries, baby. I'm learning what they are.

[A]

I'm really happy for you.

[B]

They're very hard to do.

[A]

I'm really happy.

[B]

All I want to talk about are those 10 things.

[A]

Yeah. And so that's. Oh, I get it. So this is. Yeah. The reason you're having to be so intense about not talking about it is because you're dying to talk about it.

[B]

Oh, of course. It's the headline of my summer. It's hard for us, but I'm processing those things.

[A]

It's hard for us. We're the kind of people, I think, most comics in general, but we want to talk about everything that's ever happened to us.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And that's nice in that it's vulnerable. My friend said, like, that's what she loves about me. I, like, open up and I share my innards so people can, like, poke around. But I'm realizing, like, oh, not everyone has. And I'm sort of violating my own boundary now. Not everyone has the purest intentions. Like, hey, this is how to love me is also like, hey, here's how to emotionally abuse me. And so I need to be a little more mindful about who I let in.

[A]

Well, you're giving them the code to the safe.

[B]

I gave them the code to the safe because I trust people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I. I'm so naive and immature. I thought people were good. I still think they're good. I'm very Anne Frank Jesus Christ in that way. And what happened to them?

[A]

You know, you feel positive about referring to yourself just now on the so True podcast as very Anne Frank Jesus. Does that feel good to you? Because I'm a mere humble interviewer, and I'm happy to.

[B]

I believe people are good. To my detriment.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's what I mean by that.

[A]

So did. I'm not saying that I'm Jesus.

[B]

I'm not. And I'm also not Jewish. I realize both those people were Jewish, and I'm not. What else do they have in common?

[A]

That is so funny.

[B]

An and J. Seuss. I don't know. I'm empowered by this.

[A]

By what? The shoes off.

[B]

Yeah. And I feel like a little kid. You? Yeah.

[A]

The striped shirt, the shoes off, the.

[B]

The baby.

[A]

Just learning about boundaries last month.

[B]

Really? I thought you told everybody everything.

[A]

Meme.

[B]

I thought one did.

[A]

Oh, one. That one should.

[B]

Capital Royal oversharer.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I think it's fun to share. I like to share. I think I share a lot, but I keep. I keep some things for myself, but very rarely.

[B]

What do you care for yourself? See what I'm doing? I'm testing his own boundary. That was wrong of me.

[A]

No, I was just talking to somebody about this yesterday that like in work I'll talk about absolutely anything. I don't really have much fear around any topic. I don't have fear around any topic. I. I exercise some boundaries in my work. Only around a key couple of specific, like familial relationships. And not my dating or sex life, but my romantic life.

[B]

Oh, you talk about. But not falling.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Zach, you are such a poet.

[B]

Stop.

[A]

You're such a poet.

[B]

Oh, one to know you also.

[A]

You make me wanna. You make me want to embrace my. My Southern poet side.

[B]

Stop. We do. Where's Midwest? South?

[A]

No, I'm.

[B]

I'm stolen valor over there.

[A]

Some people talk about Missouri as the south, but the truth of the matter is there's really two Missouri's and one of them is Southern, One of them is Midwestern. I am squarely from the Midwestern portion.

[B]

But there's. It's a spectrum.

[A]

Yes. Because if you're down in the boot hill of Missouri, that is called the boot hill. Yeah. And it's. That's like Arkansas, Tennessee. Yeah, that's like down in the little dip of Missouri. You're down there and then it's like Iowa.

[B]

Is it a pair of heels or. It's a boot for sure.

[A]

It's. I'm just telling you what it's called.

[B]

You know what I'm realizing? These chairs are.

[A]

Tell me.

[B]

Kind of like rocking chairs. It's fun to swim on a porch.

[A]

Isn't it fun to swivel?

[B]

It's fun to swivel. I feel like one of those fans.

[A]

What?

[B]

You know, the fan that kind of gives a little air over here.

[A]

And you're referring to the concept of oscillating. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Sat. I know that word.

[A]

Also, don't act like you don't know what oscillation is.

[B]

Comedy is just synonyms.

[A]

Yeah, it is.

[B]

Vacillating.

[A]

What do you think that you're blocking from me right now by focusing on the chair and the shoe?

[B]

I'm keeping things light so you don't get into the summer. The summer from hell. The summer I turned broken.

[A]

Oh my God. I just love that we were talking.

[B]

Before the show about Portland and you mentioned a fun experience you have. May I share a Portland experience I had?

[A]

Well, I wish that you would. This is Portland, Oregon.

[B]

Portland, Oregon. I was there having some nice fun. I was on a dating apple and match with a beautiful trans woman and we started messaging and then we. She was like, oh, can I get your Number. I was like, sure. We started chatting. We were going to meet up to fool around. We share. She shared a dirty pic. And I was like, oh, that's a. That's a different pic than your profile picture. And she was like, oh, that's my roommate. She's also a trans woman. I was like, okay, you're a catfish. And I blocked etc. Etc. Phone call. Do it now. I was like, what? Do it now. I look at my phone. He's. This scammer has sent a report of my name. They have my address, my age, a list of possible family members, some of which are true. A picture of me and then a picture of a penis, which is not my penis. I never sent this.

[A]

Are you lying right now?

[B]

No. It's literally not my penis.

[A]

They sent a penis, which is my penis.

[B]

I don't know whose that was. Yeah, no, it was. It's not. It. It was bigger than mine. And they always are.

[A]

They always are.

[B]

They always are. I know. That's why being bi is nice. Gay men like need 10 inches to feel anything.

[A]

No, I've. I've been on record about this. A big dick is such a. It's cumbersome. Don't bring a big cucumber. It's cucumbersome. It's not. It's like, why do you even have that thing?

[B]

Yes, but I have to finish the story.

[A]

Well, then get back to it.

[B]

I forgot where I was that he.

[A]

Said, do it now.

[B]

Yes. They built this report, not my penis. That they're gonna. They're like, I'm gonna send this to your family and ruin your life. I was like, what? And they're like counting down. 10, nine, eight. And I was like, you don't. That is so like texting this, like 1098, like do it now. And I'm like, what? He's like, send me $500. I'm gonna ruin your life. I was like, you don't have my family's phone numbers. And then he's like, all right. And so a couple minutes go by. My sister texts me like, hey, did you get that text? I was like, how is this scammer, like pretending to be my sister? That's insane. So I call her, like, hannah, what are you talking about? He somehow sent this report to my immediate family and my brother's ex wife. Their numbers must be online with like this guy does gay and teenager, and they send the dick pic.

[A]

Not gay and teenager.

[B]

Gay and teenager. To be fair, I was talking to an of age trans woman.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When the allegations aren't even. Yeah, like, basically. And I'm just texting my. Like, that's not my dick, Mom. That's not my dick. And I think she was most offended by just being reminded that I'm queer in her inbox.

[A]

I was going to say it's, It's. It's not great for your mom, who has, like, maybe some. Some questions about queer, for her to get a text. It's like, here's your son's dick. He's doing teenager. It's like, okay, worst case scenario.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she. She was probably just like, send him the $500 set. Just do it. No, but that was quite a. Quite an afternoon. It was quite a rush, actually, because I wasn't going to give in to it. I knew it wasn't real or mattered. But it does get your heart racing.

[A]

I mean, this is a horrifying story.

[B]

Yeah. I do have a habit of going through terrible things and immediately thinking they're funny before actually, like, sitting with the emotions.

[A]

Oh, it's horrifying that this person did this to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's such an invasion of privacy.

[B]

I know. It makes you kind of not want to go on apps or give your number anymore or trust your gut more. I kind of knew something was up.

[A]

I don't give my number.

[B]

She was like, I don't charge. And I was like, well, that's a funny headline for your account. Like, okay. I was like, I dollar a minute, babe. But they. They prey on sweet, horny tourists.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I hate that it happened to you.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

What app was this?

[B]

Grinder.com.

[A]

This was Grindr.

[B]

Grindr. Full of bots these days.

[A]

I know it.

[B]

Hot people. Oh, hey, join my only fans. Like, no, I want to meet up.

[A]

They're getting better at, I think for. For a number of years there when I was a little bit younger, the Grindr fake accounts, the pictures were so clearly fake.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was always like some. Some man in, like a mostly unbuttoned white shirt on the beach with like, a Pinot Grigio. And it was like, you're clearly not in rural Missouri right now. And now they've gotten good at finding, like, multiple pictures of a real looking person from the area. They're pretty good.

[B]

My big beef with Grindr right now isn't the bots. It's the. The death of the imagination.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

People in these albums are sharing photos that sort of leave nothing to it. They're showing.

[A]

This is one of my Biggest things.

[B]

It's like, graph. You're showing me a dick in your ass. You're showing me an Imagine. There's no. Like, Write a. Write a poem. Write it. Write something. Like, there's nothing. It's so gross. Graphically explicit. Like, there's. The mind isn't engaged. It's just body. Like, plug and play. This is your thing also.

[A]

I'm with you. I'm so excited to hear you say this because I have been saying I don't send nudes at all. I don't do it.

[B]

Oh, same.

[A]

Because I'm like. I'm. There's too many people. I've. I've caught too many people even. Even kind of early in my career. I caught too many people trying to get me to send news.

[B]

They just want to see the goods.

[A]

And then they want to not. They don't want to hook up. They just want to, like, do whatever they want to do with them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm not interested in that.

[B]

Are you on L.P. sG?

[A]

I'm sorry?

[B]

There's a forum out there.

[A]

LPSG.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is that?

[B]

Large Penis Support Group. It's where people share the nudes of notable public figures that they've accessed in order to determine if they have LPs.

[A]

That's horrible.

[B]

It's terrible.

[A]

People are really nasty.

[B]

I have a page there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They have nothing on me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also, I'm. I don't.

[A]

Whoa. I need to check in on that.

[B]

On the size of my penis.

[A]

I need to check in on the size of your penis. On the chat. No, the form. I mean, I find that. Okay, so anyway. But the.

[B]

The.

[A]

The sending of, like, every angle of your naked body before you meet up with someone. I'm like. The whole fun is that we, like, meet each other, we make out for a little bit, we feel around, we wonder about what's gonna be going on. Yeah, it's like. This is the fun of it. Why do you, like. You've removed the whole entire enjoyment of the process.

[B]

Soon you don't even have to meet up. There's probably some weird AI future where you just bloop, bloop, and then they appear and you don't even. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, it really. I don't like it at all. It really.

[B]

How do we get back to, like, a letter?

[A]

Okay, so, yeah, you and I are.

[B]

Dearest Caleb, the evening has descended, but my penis is rising.

[A]

Yeah. If you sent me that letter, there's a less than zero percent chance we'd fuck.

[B]

How's that's not how percentages work.

[A]

Yeah, well, it is in this scenario.

[B]

Oh, okay. Welcome to your world.

[A]

I like it over here. I like it over here. It's good. Everything makes a little bit more sense in my world.

[B]

Can I tell you my. The catchphrase of the summer? Yeah. Tell a man. No, this is the clip. I already know this clip. This. Tell a man no, get ready for a show. Whoa. Tell a man. No. Get ready for a show.

[A]

Tell me about it. What does that mean?

[B]

All you have to do is tell a man a little itty bitty no. They will put on a production, a little bit of rejection that you will see. Do this on an early date with someone. Do this with a new friend. It shows everything about the person.

[A]

What do you mean? Like. Like. No.

[B]

Ask me something.

[A]

Okay, well, I don't think. Okay.

[B]

Ask me a personal question.

[A]

What's. What's your. What's your idea of a perfect day?

[B]

That's a great question. I don't. I don't want to talk about that.

[A]

Well, yeah, that's really rude. Oh, don't you think that's rude?

[B]

That was rude.

[A]

It would be rude if someone asked you such a benign question to say that you don't want to talk about it.

[B]

Oh. Potentially.

[A]

But let me give you a better one.

[B]

Yeah. But you also might not be a man in this scenario.

[A]

I have to be a man in this. I want to be a man in this scenario to make your thing work. What's. Let's go out Friday night.

[B]

No, thank you.

[A]

Yeah. There is a better way to do that.

[B]

Hey, I'm busy. I'm busy.

[A]

That's different than no, though.

[B]

You want to see how they respond to being told no to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, oh, can I get the door for you? No, thank you. What do you mean I can't get the door for you? Like, you're going to see anger. Yeah. You're going to see playfulness. You'll see how they react to a no.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this summer, I was telling men no. I got shows.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I got. They put on little song and dances. They got little. They got angry.

[A]

I got.

[B]

They got. They. They did their little dances.

[A]

Yeah. And what did you learn?

[B]

What did I learn? That it's not to hold firm to it. Don't give in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just because of their oversized emotional reaction to that. No.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, maintain your. No, don't personalize their reaction. It's some thing they have. Even you being like, that was rude is based on, like, your understanding of, like, social etiquettes. And norms like, oh, I didn't mean to be rude. I just don't want to talk about that.

[A]

Yeah, well, I do think. Yeah, I think that's totally fine. It's totally fine for someone to say, I think both sides are fine. It's totally fine for someone to say that was rude. And for you to then say, oh, I wasn't trying to be rude. If. If I experienced an encounter in dating where I thought someone was rude, I would say that was rude. And if they said, oh, I wasn't trying to be rude, I'd be like, okay, that is perfect interaction. That's a perfect interaction. I think there is something that, like, conflict is not inherently. I've encountered a lot of people abuse.

[B]

Sarah Schulman.

[A]

What is that?

[B]

Conflict is not abuse. It's a book she wrote. Sarah. Sarah Schumman.

[A]

Oh, I don't know who that is. Who is she?

[B]

She wrote Rent, and it was stolen by Jonathan Larson.

[A]

Obsessed.

[B]

She's a lesbian scholar, wrote, oh, my God, I feel like a queer elder right now. My God. What was the first book she wrote? People in Trouble that inspired it was stolen by Jonathan Larson to make Rent. And what did I read of hers? It was a family book about how therapists and people need to intervene in homophobic family units that we celebrate and worship the family. Like, oh, the parents are always right. Let them do. And it's like, no, if the parents are homophobic, the state, slash, a therapist, slash, community members need to intervene. Yeah. I forget what the title of that one was. Do we. Is that a skill? Yeah. What's the. What's the last Sarah Schultz? I Getting her name wrong? Sarah Schulman. I feel like the lesbians are going to be really mad if I got that name wrong. Don't worry.

[A]

They were mad at me last week.

[B]

Oh, what'd you do?

[A]

Oh, I was talking about. There's this. There's this phenomenon that happens sometimes on the show where if I.

[B]

Phenomenon.

[A]

If I make any joke about another group, there's like 12 people from that group that are like, why would you be speaking on this? And it's like, because I can and I want to. We need to grow up. And I'll keep doing it as well. Is that your right? Yeah, and it is, and I will. That's my job.

[B]

It's literally. Yeah.

[A]

Do we find a chance?

[B]

There's a lot. Was it fiction or non fiction? What you're looking at people in trouble was their fiction work, but the non fiction was. There's my American History Lesbian and gay life during the Reagan Bush years. Stage struck theater, AIDS and the marketing of gay America. Ties that bind. Ties that bind.

[A]

There you go. What is ties that Bind?

[B]

That's the homophobia one.

[A]

That's the interview.

[B]

And then the conflict is not abuses. Her most recent one, which I haven't read, but yeah, with a head, with a name like that, you kind of. I mean, you don't have to read the book.

[A]

That is.

[B]

That is though, something like the let them theory. Yeah, you don't have to read the books, just let them. Sorry. No, you were saying?

[A]

That is something I've been thinking a lot about, is conflict is not like. Yeah. It's not abuse. It's not inherently a bad thing that someone. You're allowed to have your thing and someone is allowed to have an opposition to it. And you can probably both get to a place of being like, okay, understood.

[B]

In fact, it's healthy and good that you both leave that as still individuals.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like with your own ideas and thoughts. My dad, God forbid I'm citing him.

[A]

Said, and I'm citing the dark magic on this one, but yeah, I'm going to invoke him up.

[B]

You brought him up.

[A]

You brought him up. If two people.

[B]

Caleb.

[A]

Oh, you want to talk about.

[B]

I told you not to. Yeah, welcome. Zach, stop it.

[A]

Frank Zimmerman is not here.

[B]

If two people agree on everything, only one of them is thinking. Yeah.

[A]

Ooh, that actually is really insightful.

[B]

He has like four or five things and then my therapist has like six or seven things that are just like Bible verse quality things you want to cite for your whole life.

[A]

Therapist beats dad.

[B]

Therapist is dad. Yeah.

[A]

First of all.

[B]

Or sort of the non judgmental, shameless, kind, loving and supportive father figure.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

He's a 55 year old straight white man.

[A]

Naturally.

[B]

In Chicago of all places, changed my life. Straight. Straight. Well, I've had gay therapists and it's never took off.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

For various reasons.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

One in Chicago just would sit there.

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

Just give me something.

[A]

Just wouldn't say a word. Like, oh, I don't like that.

[B]

Like kick us off. And then I had one in New York who was like more insecure and anxious than me. And I was like, that can't be how this work. We set up a first meeting and I was like, hey, like if. Yeah, if this works out, I'd love to like keep seeing. Keep. Make another appointment. And he's like, what do you mean if this works out? Of course it's gonna work out.

[A]

I was like, no. Oh, no, honey, not iron. Sharpening iron, please. This can't be. It was.

[B]

It was dull. Sharpening dull.

[A]

That's crazy, dude.

[B]

Have you had gay therapies?

[A]

I don't really do therapy.

[B]

God, you really are enlightened. From. From the jump.

[A]

Oh, I don't think so. I mean, I. I feel good, but I think I could probably. There's. There's times where I need therapy. I just haven't made the leap back to it.

[B]

I did.

[A]

I. When I say I don't really do therapy, I mean lately in my adult life. I did therapy a little bit in college. It was fine, but I kind of got over my big thing at that time. And then everything since then, I got a lot of tools from that. And then, I don't know, I've just felt like I can mostly handle things.

[B]

From our first lunch. Forever ago, I was like Caleb someone. You know who you are. I do, I think in a very confident way. And you've told me about saying no to things before. You just like, you're very sure of yourself and I admire that.

[A]

Thank you. Do you feel like you know who you are?

[B]

I'm starting a process of learning who I am.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Post. Putting other people's needs before mine.

[A]

And when did that process begin? This summer. Is this the unmentionable?

[B]

I've always been like, I process some of the. I grew up super religious, evangelical, thought I was going to hell. I've processed like some of that. But I'm realizing anew that those wounds, by keeping the relationship with my family, those. I'm still receiving some abuse.

[A]

Yeah, you've given a lot. I noticed from afar you've given a lot to your family.

[B]

Yeah. And I thought it was noble. This is sort of on the topic of the. The book I'm writing.

[A]

The new one.

[B]

The new book, it's called Shipmother. Yeah, it's. I took my mom on a week long cruise, my conservative evangelical mother, in order to fundamentally change and alter her religious and political beliefs. And we all know how that turned out.

[A]

And it worked.

[B]

It worked. She's.

[A]

She's.

[B]

Yeah, she's running.

[A]

She's been door knocking for mom. Donnie.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

She's.

[B]

She loves that free bus.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I. Yeah. And so. But what I've. I don't want to. Well, I mean, I'll give it away because the book may never come out or I might die tomorrow. What I learned, me being like obsessed with her and trying to understand her, was at the expense of me being obsessed with myself and learning who I am. Like, why am I trying to. Why does this woman believe I'm going to hell and sort of can't accept this. This queer part of my life? I. I caught her in a lie.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

I caught her in a lie. And it's a big lie that she.

[A]

You don't want to tell. Do you want to say for the book. I don't want to pressure you into giving away a big, good lie.

[B]

I mean, if everyone listening could go buy the first book.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That'll help. The second book maybe exist.

[A]

Okay. So everyone go buy the. Zach's first book, which sits in my home beautifully.

[B]

Oh, thank you. Untouched sort.

[A]

It's in a. It's in a mausoleum. No.

[B]

Everyone prays to it when they come in.

[A]

No. It is touched and has a cover.

[B]

Do I mind giving that away? Yeah. Why? I mean, it's not. I don't know if this will be in the book. That she loves me unconditionally was a lie.

[A]

Yeah. And how did you catch her in that?

[B]

I came out to her as bisexual or let her know I was dating a woman this summer, and she said, I've been praying for this, which is funny and hurtful at the same time.

[A]

Which is sort of hurt.

[B]

I know that she hid it behind humor, which is what's tricky. Like, oh, that's actually really hurtful, but hilarious.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Thanks for the content, Mom. And as I was dating a woman, she was asking more questions about it. She sent us, like, a present, a game for us to play. And I was like, oh, would you have done that if this was a man? You can be honest with me. And she said, probably not.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so a couple weeks later, I was like, hey, how do you show love? Oh, you ask questions. You send gifts. Right, Mom? Excuse me. I'm not getting choked up. That was like a belch.

[A]

Yeah. Just had a whole variety of coffee. Yeah.

[B]

We're at, like. I'm at, like, a 20% chance of crying on the podcast.

[A]

Nice. I'm. I would say.

[B]

Have you ever.

[A]

Have I cried on this pod?

[B]

Yes. Oh, Have I. I think didn't. Yeah.

[A]

I can't remember what episode I cried on a bonus segment. Yeah. Once with Bob.

[B]

With Bob. Yeah.

[A]

Have I cried on the main show mom stuff.

[B]

Trying to think. Yeah.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

You didn't cry during either of the Kelly episodes?

[A]

No. Kelly cried instantly on the Kelly episode. My mom. I don't know. I feel like she's a crier.

[B]

I feel like you've gotten choked up or like teared up a little bit.

[A]

Yeah, I cry. I mean, I was, I, I've. I cried to you like two days ago. I cry. I just usually on the show, we. It doesn't usually go to a place that gets me to cry.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

But I'm open to it. What's crying on camera? I think it'd be very chic.

[B]

I. We're at 25 now.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Feeling a little safer.

[A]

You got saved a little safer. Baby, you are safe here.

[B]

But I confronted my mom. I was like, oh, it seems like the level of your love is conditional based on the gender of my partner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she's like, well, you know, I believe what I believe. I was like, oh, I'm just disappointed in that. And she's like, well, yeah, And I just stood. Stood my ground. To co opt a phrase.

[A]

Yeah, this is stand your ground state. Yeah, this is stand your ground state.

[B]

Yeah. And yeah, it was just eye opening to me, like, oh, you've said that for so long. I love you unconditionally. We had a funny. You. Your mom called when we were having brunch and I asked where you got all your confidence and you said, my mom? Yeah, she praised me every day when I was a kid. Yeah. And I was like, I called my mom after that. I was like, hey, can. Will you like praise me? I'm sorry.

[A]

That's so sweet. I love you. That's so sweet.

[B]

Is it sweet?

[A]

That is.

[B]

She was like, you're almost a 40 year old man. Why do you need your mom to praise you?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, because you didn't.

[A]

When I wasn't 40. Yeah, because you didn't do it when I needed it most.

[B]

And then the next day, day I got like, you're amazing. My amazing son.

[A]

That's really sweet. That's effort.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Maybe, you know, or is there $8 short?

[B]

Yeah. And there might be a word for a person who does that sort of push, pull, degrade, praise. Degrade, praise.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That I hesitate to say.

[A]

Yeah, I, Yeah, it's really, it's tough. It's really tough because, I don't know, you oscillate sometimes with parents between. It's, you know, the whole like it's their first time on earth kind of thing where you're like, they're a person who's figuring it out. You're oscillating between like that and then also being like, well, I was the child. I don't. I shouldn't have to have this much.

[B]

Grace for you A thousand percent.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My dad asked him once, like, what, what's it? What is a good dad?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Thinking, oh, he had some philosophy. He's raised four kids. We're all like reasonable adults, productive members of society. And he goes, I don't know, I didn't have one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm like, oh, you're trapped. Yeah, you're. You're. You're 12.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're 60, but you're 12. Yeah. And it comes back to one of the Bible verses of my therapist. Everyone is a fourth grader.

[A]

This has been a thing that's been coming up a lot lately. I've seen. I've seen a bunch.

[B]

You're skeptical.

[A]

No, I've seen a bunch of stuff online. Like everyone's 12 now. Like everyone's.

[B]

We were always 12.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We've always been 12.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't you feel 12?

[A]

No, I feel that I've always been 30. I feel that when I was 12, I was 30. I felt 60 since the day I was born. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your offerings with a professional website, grow your brand, and get paid all in one place. We all could use a good website in this day and age, I tell you what. And Squarespace has so many awesome features to get yours up and running. Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one place. From consultations to events and experiences. Showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. Get paid on time with professional on brand invoices and online payments. Plus streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Wow. Get discovered fast with integrated Squarespace SEO tools. Every website is optimized to be indexed with meta descriptions, an auto generated site map and more. So you show up more often on search engines and bring in more of your ideal customers. Head to squarespace.com so true for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code so true to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Thank you, Squarespace folks. We all know how difficult it can be to quit something like vaping or cigarettes. I hear the same old song from friends and acquaintances all the time I'm trying to quit but I just can't or maybe just one more but it's almost never. Just one more is it Vapes and pouches keep you hooked in a cycle of nicotine spikes, crashes, and constant cravings. Plus, you're inhaling chemicals or irritating your gums. Quitting isn't just about fighting cravings. It's about making better habits. Jones gets that. With Jones, there's no smoke, no vapor, no hidden chemicals. Just a discreet and tasty mint pop one when cravings hit no smell, no clouds, no stepping outside. Cravings last about 60 seconds. The worst side effect of smoking is stepping outside. Cravings last about 60 seconds. Jones helps you ride them out without disappearing from the moment. Jones turns quitting into a positive team effort, not a punishment A positive team effort, not a punishment. Sounds like my weekends.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

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[B]

The teachers and I shared a special bond.

[A]

Yes, of course.

[B]

Of course. Every little teacher.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Oh, a little straight A Zach. Of course. My legacy. My poor sister.

[A]

How so?

[B]

She was two years behind me. And once the teacher went down and saw Zimmerman on that list, they were like, I had your brother. She was just in my shadow. Poor soul.

[A]

I bet that was hard for her.

[B]

Yeah, she's doing well now. She teaches of all things Trauma Informed education in South Carolina Public school system.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

One of the most incredible just doing it for all the right reasons.

[A]

It's a big. I was actually just this morning thinking about how big of a swing it is with teachers. There's like one end. It's. It's very. It's very polarized. There's no.

[B]

Caleb Herron hates teachers.

[A]

Well, listen to the take.

[B]

Because overpaid.

[A]

They not. Certainly not overpaid, but half of them are the sweetest, most angelic. Like, truly in it. Sounds like your sister in it for the right reasons. Want to, like, change the future and be there for kids. And all you can do is, like, tip your hat and admire them and ask, what more can we do for you? And half of them are the biggest reject losers who like, miss high school and middle school and wish they could do it over again so badly.

[B]

Ms. Bryant, I'm saying it's like a name her.

[A]

It's like ends of the spectrum. And I think there's more of the good ones. But I'm saying it would be ridiculous to pretend that we don't know that some teachers are just like, bloodthirsty, like rejected losers who feel bad because they were bullied in high school.

[B]

Same with parents or people that just have some vendetta.

[A]

And same with comedians.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And we don't even actually have the. The angelic spectrum. We just.

[B]

We're all just shades of demons.

[A]

It's like, how hurt are you? Is the only.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I'm not. Yeah. I'm not proclaiming to be above. I'm just saying it is an interesting thing, that profession.

[B]

One of the most interesting teachers I had was my math teacher in high school. And she was a beautiful woman. And at the senior breakfast, she sang that don't impress me much by Shania Twain. God love. And would cast the cutest boy seniors.

[A]

Oh, hey.

[B]

She was like. She would come over like that don't impress me much.

[A]

Oops. Uh oh, not that.

[B]

Not that. She also. She wrote me letters of recommendation that changed my life. She gave me four of them for colleges, and I only needed three. And it was wrong of me to do, but I wanted to look at what it said because I'm a words of affirmation girl and I want to see what it is. And it goes. Zach is one of the best students I've ever had in all my careers of teaching. She is sure to excel at whatever she does.

[A]

Wow. But that actually did something.

[B]

I was like, she copy pasted. But also, she knew.

[A]

Yeah, maybe she knew it on accident.

[B]

And I got it.

[A]

Accidental affirmation. Let's go.

[B]

But then Ms. Bryant was the bad end of the spectrum. Eighth grade English.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Evil woman had us do resuscitations.

[A]

What's up?

[B]

She had us memorize and recite things. But she called it a resuscitation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How about a rescue? Dying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Weird. And she gave me my only zero.

[A]

Whoa. Who evil. The tears are coming. 30%. 30%.

[B]

She. It was back when instead of like reading a book you had to do like 100 different act to do the book or whatever little fun things. And she gave one way to earn points was to draw a picture of a scene from the book. And she gave us all a piece of tracing paper. And so in my book there was a beautiful intricate scene that had already been drawn. So I used the tracing paper to go over it. Zero plagiarism. Whoa. My mom love her to death. Rabble rouser. Doesn't love me unconditionally but fights when necessary.

[A]

Loves a good fight.

[B]

Loves a good fight.

[A]

The 2024 election January six wishes she could have been there.

[B]

Charlie Kirk she wrote I am Charlie in the sand in Myrtle Beach. That's. That's. That's a fun thing for our listeners to know about. Patty Zimmerman. She loves a fight. She called the principal. Why is. Why did my son receive a 0? The principal calls the teacher. Zach gets another chance. The next day I drew the most beautiful picture of the scene from that.

[A]

She goes to the beach writes I am Zach in the sand.

[B]

Just sweet Zachary J. Swee Zach. Oh yeah. She fought for me also came to school and had me removed when condoms were discussed in sex ed. Which did lead to me using Saran Wrap once in an early sexual encounter. But which works it I don't have a child.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I am not father.

[B]

I don't know if it's my poor sperm or the. The clinging power of Saran Wrap.

[A]

Hard to say.

[B]

Are they a sponsor Saran Wrap.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Good good.

[A]

Yeah. They run 2 million of ads on here. Yeah.

[B]

This. You're doing well.

[A]

Yeah. Saran runs 2 million of ads on here.

[B]

This is. You've really. This.

[A]

You like the new studio?

[B]

I love it.

[A]

We have much to do but we're. We're really getting there. Everyone's working very hard on it.

[B]

I. The pod is great. You may appraise you briefly and we might cut it. Does it make you uncomfortable? You've just. You're a good egg who's building something really special and doing it your way and bringing people up with you and I don't think you're evil.

[A]

Why was There a question mark on it.

[B]

Just playful.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Just.

[B]

Just being a little. Just being a little playful.

[A]

I was giving room for a further bit, but I like that. Okay, that's nice.

[B]

Everyone has a little evil. Yeah. I clocked myself like 3%.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I want to date with someone who said 60.

[A]

Them. They said 60 for them.

[B]

Whoa. She.

[A]

Yeah, I said they. Did you like that? That was nice.

[B]

Yeah, But. But she.

[A]

Yeah, but I. But I gave. I left a really open door.

[B]

Really nice open door. And I. I let you know what's ins.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Behind door number one.

[A]

Was she a woman. Open the door.

[B]

She.

[A]

She.

[B]

It's three doors. Your children, listeners won't know this. The Monty hall problem. It was on let's Make a Deal. There were three doors, and you would open. You pick a door to win a prize, and then he opens up one of the other doors, lets you know it's not the prize, and then you can either switch or stay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What do you think gives you the best odds to stay? Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No switch.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

The door you picked has a one in three chance. The door that you didn't pick has a two out of three chance.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Because.

[A]

I said so.

[B]

Something math. It's mathy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because Monty opening a door, he knew. Which didn't. There was more information. It's not just 50. 50. There's extra information. All of which is to say there's three doors in behind. One's a she, one's a he, one's a they.

[A]

Yeah. The three genders.

[B]

Kind of a fun way to. To date.

[A]

Yeah. A doors based dating system.

[B]

Door based dating system.

[A]

Doors based dating. We're gonna start a dating app called Doors.

[B]

Doors. I do think we're dating. Apps should have videos. Either we should do a love is blind dating app or you don't get to see the person. You only connect. Okay. Superficial, Sally.

[A]

No, I just think it's important to see someone. I like to see someone's eyes. I like to see someone's vibe. I like to see the pictures they choose.

[B]

That's interesting. I think we should do a little video then.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think videos should normalize. Video.

[A]

Hinge has video. I also like the voice note.

[B]

Oh, voice. I know.

[A]

Voice is fun.

[B]

Oh, you get so much information from voice.

[A]

Voice is good.

[B]

More than pictures even, I think for sure. You get like, pacing, tone, personality. Yeah. You can fall in love with the voice.

[A]

Oh, for sure.

[B]

Hashtag love is blind. Her love is blind is her.

[A]

Joaquin did this.

[B]

Oh, I know Joaquin did this. Everybody now Erotica's. On AI now. Yeah. We're not leaving the house.

[A]

I am.

[B]

You can just on Grindr, get all the pictures you need from every angle and then just talk to the AI bot.

[A]

I like Grindr, but I, I, Yeah, the point is to. I enjoy Grinder. I actually, I frequently have like pretty fun conversations on Grindr.

[B]

I'm like, if people are willing.

[A]

Yeah, I'll chit chat on there sometimes.

[B]

If you deviate from the. Hey. Hey. What's up? Sup? What are you into? What are you into? You're seeing like a freak for sure.

[A]

And I get that sometimes you're so horny that you can't entertain. Like a whimsical little convo. Been there, been that.

[B]

What do you think about a bar that lets everyone know how horny you are? Sort of mental state?

[A]

I think that would be really good. I think that should be on, like. I think that should be on slack. That should be on every application.

[B]

Hey, does anyone know the status of this report? Someone reach out to Susan.

[A]

Oh, she's at a nine.

[B]

She's real.

[A]

She's rubbing against her desk right now.

[B]

Give her a minute.

[A]

They should have it on doordash. Like, hey, your driver's really horny. Just honestly, I've had some cute doordash drivers that I've been like, if I knew I would, I'd let you in.

[B]

I've had a UPS or two that there's a vibe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Never sealed the deal.

[A]

I haven't either. Never with it. Never with a delivery driver. There was no one. I didn't sleep with him. But there was a task rabbit that I'm like, if I wanted it.

[B]

It's all what they say about rabbits. They like for life.

[A]

They made for life.

[B]

No, they have so much.

[A]

Yeah, they a lot.

[B]

Yeah, they're gay. They make. Yeah.

[A]

Then rabbits mate for life.

[B]

They're made for life and they don't get ulcers.

[A]

What?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

That's. Is that true?

[B]

Zebras don't.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Because they don't worry. Because they're animals. Yeah, we worry.

[A]

We do.

[B]

As humans.

[A]

What are you. What are you unworried about? What's making you happy? What are you looking forward to?

[B]

Oh, my God. Joy. I'm gonna go on a fall foliage cruise.

[A]

Fun.

[B]

It's like a four hour. It was recommended by another comedian and it's gonna be so nice this weekend. You just look at all the trees. There's beers, but I think I'll just have a coffee and just Nature. We forget about nature. Yeah, we as in I.

[A]

We as in me specifically.

[B]

Me specifically. Not a you forget. You think like, oh, there's no nothing here. It's like, oh, there's everything.

[A]

Where's the tour?

[B]

It goes up the Hudson. Up the. Up the Hudson.

[A]

Fun.

[B]

I said that twice to make sure it.

[A]

Just to make sure that it's up the Hudson. Yeah, I think it goes up the Hudson.

[B]

I'm looking forward to that. And then I'm scheming. I am not going home for Thanksgiving this year.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Because it's. It's a Trump dinner this year because my sister is going with her husband and her kids to Guatemala to visit his family. And then my other sister and I were like, this drops our numbers. It'd be like six of us and four Trumpers and just me and my sister. And I was like, I don't know if I want to go through that.

[A]

Yeah, don't do it.

[B]

Yeah. So big ol boundary. So I'm figuring out what I'm going to do.

[A]

Yeah. These things are supposed to be fun.

[B]

Yeah. You don't have to do things you're not excited about. Has anyone seen this TikTok of the guy who says an alien's in his body and then a kid is like, what's the. What do I need to know? And he's like, I've told you everything you need to know. Do what excites you to the best of your ability with no expectation of the outcome.

[A]

Missed this one. I missed this one. Oh, I haven't seen this one.

[B]

I'll do it a couple more times.

[A]

Yeah, sure. You run it by me. Just let's make sure we got it.

[B]

Yeah, but it seems so silly. Do what excites you is such a simple idea. But for so much of my life and often for people, you're doing what you think you're supposed to do to be a good son or a good employee or a good community member. It's like, do what is exciting to you because that is infectious and it gets everyone excited. And then we're changing the world with excitement.

[A]

Yeah. Yes, mostly. Oh, no. I come up with a problem with it because I have said that the world would just be a much better place if everyone did what made them happy. If everyone truly just focused on what made them happy. That. Actually, we talk about this sometimes in the tenant union, that acting in your self interest will actually most of the time benefit everybody. When you're talking to working people, when you're talking to billionaires, you obviously can't talk like that.

[B]

That.

[A]

But that's the issue is when you say do the thing that would make you excited. Some people are excited by being mean and bad, unfortunately. And I think it's a small number. But that's why it can't be a universal maxim. Because even though most of us are excited by good and kindness and happiness and joy, there are some people who are excited by nastiness.

[B]

And that's.

[A]

It's tough.

[B]

It's. Yeah. You forget those people exist or I forget that they exist. I think they're like over there on the TV or doing awful things in other cities. But it's like, like, oh, no, they're your mom.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're your friend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or could be.

[A]

Yeah. They're around and it's. It's.

[B]

Or they're you on a really, really, really bad day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like we all have the capacity for great good and great evil. And what makes choosing good powerful is that you reject the evil. Yeah.

[A]

Do we all have the capacity for great evil?

[B]

There's two buttons before you. You're going with that one.

[A]

No. Already I'm. I'm pointing them out.

[B]

One kills a man. Okay. And one gives you $1 billion to invest in changing the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know if this is good or not.

[A]

I'm. So far it seems only really clear cut.

[B]

You could save a malaria. Net cost, $23. And you can save. You could save a million lives. Somebody do the math. You could do. Or you kill this one guy.

[A]

I don't think you got the dilemma right. Because the question is there's a train.

[B]

The train is going 60 miles an hour.

[A]

Right. It leaves New Brunswick.

[B]

There's an old lady in the boat. Boat.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And there's a doctor in the boat.

[A]

The button. The moral dilemma you posed was there's two buttons. One kills one guy and one saves a bunch of lives.

[B]

So what are you gonna do?

[A]

Save a bunch of lives?

[B]

Well, it's money, okay? Why you would do something evil, you would kill someone for a billion dollars.

[A]

No, you didn't present the buttons Right. Is what I'm telling you. You know, you're not presenting the problem you think you're presenting.

[B]

Present it.

[A]

You said this problem kills them. This button kills a man.

[B]

Yep. And this button gives you $1 billion.

[A]

That's not a moral dilemma.

[B]

I was trying to make you take the money.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I knew I needed to say something good to get you to take the money.

[A]

Yeah, but taking the money is not anywhere equivalent to killing a man. That's not the evil.

[B]

So what are you gonna do? You kill the man.

[A]

Wait, I feel crazy. What are you talking about? Are you doing a bit right now? No, I'm so sorry.

[B]

Is.

[A]

I'm like, Zach, you have not set up a dilemma. I'm crying.

[B]

No, it's the same button.

[A]

Okay, one button.

[B]

There's one button.

[A]

For a moment, I felt hot.

[B]

You're welcome.

[A]

I've been gaslit into.

[B]

There was always one button. Caleb, what are you talking about?

[A]

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[B]

Sorry.

[A]

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[B]

No, there's one button. You either press it or not.

[A]

Okay, so that's the choice. Okay, there's one.

[B]

One button kills a man, but you get a billion dollars.

[A]

No, I would not take that button.

[B]

But you're gonna save millions of lives with your billion.

[A]

I don't. I wouldn't take that button.

[B]

Okay, then you're good, I guess.

[A]

I really don't think I would take that button. I wouldn't. I don't think I would it, really.

[B]

Do you think you have evil in you?

[A]

I think I have evil in me. I think everyone. I don't know about evil.

[B]

You don't think you're capable of great evil?

[A]

Great. The. Specifically, the great is the thing.

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

And I'm not even asking about myself. I'm asking, do we think everyone has the capacity for great evil?

[B]

Well, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Do you think if you had complete and total power, you were a billionaire, you could never be tried for a crime? Are you doing only good things?

[A]

Oh, I think so, yeah. But I guess I don't know because it hasn't happened to me.

[B]

Have you seen. Sorry to bother your. No.

[A]

Is that. Was that Boots Riley who did that?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's sort of the. He's a. Well, go watch it. Just the idea of. We all think at this level, we will break down the system when we get there. But if you, like, get access to power, do you tear things up from the inside or do you enjoy your access to power?

[A]

I. I've had very, very micro experiences of this that are nowhere Compared to what we're talking about, where I've.

[B]

We.

[A]

Just this week, I was having a crash out to Chance, actually, and a couple other people about some of the money that we're getting offered at this juncture and who it comes from. And the money is. It was, like, a little crazy last year. Like, there. There would be, like, an amount of money that you were like, yeah, that would be a lot of money. And this year it has been. I'll. Obviously, we'll talk about it off mic. There's reasons I can't talk about it. Sorry, guys. But the specifics of it are Saran Wrap. Oh, it's Saran Wrap. It's a lot of money. But, like, a thing that I think is not objectively evil, but, like, I really don't agree with it, and I have concerns about it. Anyway, anyway, there's this very small problem of an ethical dilemma that I've been in this year that has really been tearing me up. And it's hard because I do good things with my money, right? And so I do go like, oh, man, if I took that, I could donate this much to this group and I could take care of this person who needs help. And. But then also these. Part of the agreement is that I would have to sit here in this chair and tell the people who listen to me to endorse a thing that I don't believe in.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

Gotcha. So it's a very small version, but it's like, yeah, it's a new thing.

[B]

I mean, is ICE that bad?

[A]

That's the thing is, I'm wanting to run ads for ice. I want to, but I'm trying to get the number up.

[B]

I guess to me, the line from small evil to great evil is just like the amount of power that you have, right? Like, if you're willing to make the evil choice on a micro scale, like. Like, you'll do the same. Like, the extra money isn't gonna. And access to things isn't gonna make you a better person.

[A]

But I think that spectrum is definitional because I think when you're doing small acts of bad, I wouldn't call it evil. Oh, you know what I'm saying?

[B]

Call it, like a little naughty.

[A]

Like, it's like.

[B]

It's like silly, silly little girl.

[A]

I don't know. I don't know.

[B]

Anyway, Great evil. Look at me. Great.

[A]

When I say that the button dilemma is one of the funniest things. The button dilemma is really cracking me up still, because I'm like, I can't Believe you.

[B]

Maybe it's the me. I was messing up the meme. There's a meme where there's two buttons.

[A]

Yeah. And he's sweating. But they're actually the same choice. Or the very obvious choice.

[B]

I was confusing that with the box with the button.

[A]

I understand exactly what you mean. Yes. That there's a box with the button. All you have to do is open it and push it and one thing happens or it doesn't.

[B]

Hey, I was wrong.

[A]

It's really funny. I've also done. It's like I. When I try to do, like, sometimes when I try to do, like, spur of the moment, like, the moral problems like that I do get in my head where I'm like, it is like the train is leaving and there's an older woman, but there's a younger person. And you press or don't press. By the way, someone's wearing a white coat off to the side.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

I get them all mixed up sometimes, and I'm like, I don't know. I just.

[B]

I basically get, what's the white coat guy doing?

[A]

Are you good or bad? That's what I want to ask.

[B]

Yeah. And if a. Will a bad person say they're bad or will a bad person say they're good?

[A]

I think it depends. I think some bad people can never tell a lie one more time.

[B]

As a troll who can never tell.

[A]

A lie a third time just to make sure we have it.

[B]

You got it. I'm being.

[A]

Trying to see.

[B]

I'm being. I do think my. I do like great evil and great good. I like big stories from growing up Christian. Like, I love God and Satan, these ideas of great evil and great good. I love Lord of the Rings, like sorrow. I love a good villain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just didn't realize they were right there in my life the whole time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also hot take on God. Say it.

[A]

You know, I love this.

[B]

I reread Herman Hess's Damien recently, which comes for the Cain story, saying, like, oh, how did that come about? Like, maybe actually Cain was a really powerful guy people were afraid of. And so they said they had the mark of Cain, and that's why people, like, vilified him. And. And. And I was like, okay, let me do this with another myth. God and Jesus.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

How is it such an act of love to kill your son?

[A]

Yeah, this is a.

[B]

Doesn't really feel like an act of love. Seems like killing your. Sacrificing yourself would be an act of love to save your son. And so, like, God and Jesus to me, feel like very different ideas of how to exist in the world. Jesus preached love and acceptance and inclusion and the Gospel of Thomas, which was discovered at the Nag Hammadi Library, but not kept in the Bible that we know. And love was about how there's a divine light within us all, not just with Jesus. And Jesus being God was later, too. And so God is this, like, angry, toxic guy who picks favorites, Cain and Abel. God, to me, is the original narcissist.

[A]

People like. Yeah. People like this version better. Yes, of course.

[B]

And so, yeah, people are drawn to God is evil. Jesus was good.

[A]

Nobody wants to be Jesus, and everyone.

[B]

Thinks they're God because Jesus is harder.

[A]

Yeah. You get sent to die.

[B]

Yes. And you have to be doing that, willing to preach that people are good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The people that believe to come back to Anne Frank, Jesus and Zach. The people. Can I slip myself in there?

[A]

Yeah, you can.

[B]

Marianne Williamson, she allowed to get in there. People that are preaching good. Oh, she's still alive. People that are.

[A]

They haven't got her yet.

[B]

People that are preaching the importance of love and acceptance and inclusion are people come for them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

God. Yeah. So that's my hot take on God and Jesus that I'm still mulling over.

[A]

I think that makes a lot of sense. I like that take. I like thinking about that. The difference between the two just pokes.

[B]

A little hole in it. And Jesus being like, why did you forsake me, God? That feels kind of important.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like we're. We put that in there. We're kind of overlooking it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So maybe Jesus wasn't God. Yeah, I don't think he was.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

Maybe there is no God.

[A]

You think? Is that where you're at with it?

[B]

Oh, I did listen to a clip of yours about this. I'm not, like, evangelically atheist. I've surrendered to. I surrender to the universe. I think God is the dead name of the universe. We say universe now and just like, hey, there's vibes out there. There are things in this world beyond my comprehension and control. And if I. I put out good vibes, I've noticed synchronicities happen. I can think of a friend right now, Claire, and I bet I look at my phone after this, and she's texted me, and you think like, oh, that was random. It's like, maybe it wasn't random.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Maybe like, you thought of her for some special reason or so I'm.

[A]

I'm thinking of a. I'm thinking of a hot, sweet man in his 30s that loves his family and has a good job.

[B]

Open your eyes.

[A]

But he texts me right after this.

[B]

Open your eyes, sweetheart.

[A]

Man.

[B]

Genderqueer.

[A]

That's what I thought. Yeah. I was gonna say you put me.

[B]

On trans watch a few months ago.

[A]

I put you on trans watch and I let you know I have a couple of watch lists in my life.

[B]

It just makes. As a gender queer, bisexual people have to love me.

[A]

I just moved a friend from depression watch to lesbian watch.

[B]

You.

[A]

I moved her over.

[B]

Oh, a friend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, a lot of overlap.

[A]

Yeah. I thought maybe she was giving signs of depression when I was checking in.

[B]

It's actually just lesbianism.

[A]

Well, I think she. Ye. That's. It might be. We're going to find out.

[B]

Oh, that's exciting.

[A]

We're going to find out. But I've moved her. She's on a new watch list.

[B]

Adley, thank you for clocking my own misgendering of myself. That was beautiful.

[A]

I was just checking in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Happy to know.

[B]

Yeah. I. I haven't. I. I don't. Why would anyone want to be a part of. No offense. The toxic legacy of masculinity.

[A]

That's how I know I'm a man. Is. I'm like, I would not be over here if I had any other.

[B]

Right. Right.

[A]

You think I'm not humiliated to be a part of the team. This is a humiliating team to be a part of.

[B]

Done. Some tell a man no. Get ready for a show. That was rude.

[A]

One of the funniest things you've done in memory is that you. I don't know if you will fall in love because it's not a drag, but it is an observation. One of the funniest things you've done is come into this podcast and say, I had a transformative summer that I refused to talk about. And it put pieces together in a way that I didn't know was still possible. And then to continue to reference it throughout the episode is a legitimately hilarious bit to be like. I had a transformative summer that changed the way I think about. About what I'm capable of. I don't want to talk about it. And I envy. I want to do this because I think this is actually a really brilliant and captivating thing to do. And I mean that.

[B]

I didn't mean it as a bit. But you're right, it is quite a funny bit.

[A]

Well, totally. It's like you. I can feel what's actually happening is that you want to talk about things.

[B]

That you know you should 1000%.

[A]

And I do that sometimes where I'm like, I'm not going to talk about this, but if I was just.

[B]

No. Yes. Oh, my God. Well, yeah. Yeah. But it's my own. I have healing to do around it. And I want to be really intentional about the words I do use when I am ready to talk about it.

[A]

I'm supporting the boundary.

[B]

It feels very. Like I'm. Yeah. On, like, a talk show and they're trying to get me and I'm like, I'm not ready to talk about it.

[A]

And I'm not.

[B]

But also I brought it up.

[A]

That's the funny part. I'm supporting the boundary fully. I will not. I will not go into it, but I do think I do.

[B]

Her name was Susan, and his name was Corey.

[A]

Here's a question for you, because this is kind of on that topic. You're somebody who talks about a lot of personal stuff on stage, and you're very incisive on stage. You're very insightful. You have what I think to be a really beautiful mix of funny, first and foremost, thank God. But then also actually insightful. Interesting, important things to say about the world we live in and the way we exist in it. How do you decide when something raw that did actually affect you is ready to go to stage?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

You don't know?

[B]

It just happens. It's great. I think I err on the side of real time, share how my day went. And that part of that, I think, is the charge of the comedian. Like, hey, tell me about your day. You're sacrificing your personal privacy so that we can all have a laugh or gain some beautiful insight. But I think I need to learn some boundaries around what I keep for myself, what I don't, how soon, how raw. I think, like, some space is nice. I think John Marco said about mentioning his girlfriend in material that, like, the thing has to be resolved.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, it can't be live.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so maybe that's the move, like. And also, I've learned to add a little space because I did tweet, like. Like, yeah, can't wait me when I don't want to do the thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when I went on John Marco's podcast, the producer found that tweet, like, the day I was going on the podcast, where I replied to an email like, yeah, can't wait. And so you want to add a little plausible deniability between the activities of your day and going on stage. Like, if I go on stage tonight and, like, went on the worst podcast you guys have ever heard, then I.

[A]

That wouldn't. Yeah, that'd be fine.

[B]

Oh, I would never.

[A]

Yeah, this is.

[B]

I'm enjoying myself.

[A]

I know you are, but I do think sometimes people I found.

[B]

How do you approach.

[A]

How do I approach when to take stuff to the stage? I feel similar. It's kind of like. Like, electrical currents. Like, if a wire is cut and the end is still, like, sparking, it needs to at least be capped. That's not to say that if you took the cap off, the current couldn't flow again. It's not to say that the thing is completely resolved and I'm never going to have negative emotions about it again or that I'm completely healed of whatever thing has occurred. But I think the way John Marco put it is, frankly, even better of, like. Yeah, it needs to not be like a live wire of a topic in your life when you take it to the audience. Because also, first and foremost, I think you need to make sure that you're in a place to be funny about it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It is simply not any audience's responsibility to, like, caretake for you through whatever shit you're going through. You better be making them laugh.

[B]

Right. Stand up's not therapy. They pay money to be at the show. Yeah, there is. Within a set. I do think there is a little space for a frayed edge or two, but don't make it the whole thing. Although I feel like one of the great. There was a great set of Tig coming on stage, like, the day she gets her breast cancer diagnosis. And so there is a power and a rawness of being fucking real. And you can smell it when the comic is just doing their act and they're not with you. And so it's sort of your right to. You do whatever you want, whichever, but you're building a career. And if you're, you know, just the guy who comes on stage and talks about, wait, now I want to do a bit where like, hey, everybody, I had a transformative summer, but we can't talk about it.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that is a really good bit.

[B]

Can I have it?

[A]

For sure. I think throughout the set being like, oh, God, if I told you guys about this summer. Oh, if I were willing to get into it.

[B]

Reminds me of this summer.

[A]

Ma'.

[B]

Am.

[A]

Ma', Am, Ask me about this summer. Sorry, I can't.

[B]

Not taking questions at this time.

[A]

Yeah, but Tig also, I will say, by the way, this. This, like many like, this, like all other things, is a rule for myself. My rules are for Me, My rules are not for other people. Other people are allowed to do whatever they want. My rules are for Caleb. I think Tig is an interesting example, because Tig, as a performer is somebody who's so balanced and so, like, joke driven to begin with. I trust Tig to go and do the Cancer set at Largo. You know what I mean?

[B]

Trust is the. Trust is the word.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Does the audience trust that you're okay?

[A]

Yes. And there's also. There's an issue with. There's an issue with less skilled comedians trying to pull off masterful stuff too soon.

[B]

A thousand percent.

[A]

It's like, well, you're not good enough to behave that way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's okay. There's no. There's nothing mean in saying that. You're not taking Notaro. Tig was a very, very accomplished, like, dyed in the wool, toured, successful, skilled, talented comedian when. When she did that set, almost. Did they. Sorry, Tig.

[B]

What is the. I'm trying to think if there's a metaphor in, like, painting or another medium for this, like, but maybe there isn't. Maybe there isn't.

[A]

This is a perfect time to ask you, Zach Zimmerman, what is so true to you?

[B]

You don't get to ask questions of the barista. Ooh.

[A]

Tell me what you mean by that.

[B]

I feel like I was. It's mostly in the Pacific Northwest. No offense. I love Portland. But whenever I'm in a rush, I'm always behind someone who's always like, what is coffee? And I'm like. And then the barista will be like, well, we take be. And it's like, no, ma'.

[A]

Am. No. That is so funny.

[B]

So I think a little. What's. What's hard is I love. I love these little, like, micro interactions that we have. The do Breed community, I do think is important to, like, have those little moments, but not at the checkout line.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can I praise myself?

[A]

You sure can.

[B]

I was out Dunkin Donuts, and I got my coffee, and then I saw a woman get her coffee, and she had a tiny little grimace when she got it. And I was like, oh, did they mess it up? She's like, yeah, I didn't want this cream on top. And I was like, let them know. They'll remake it for you. She's like, oh, I don't want to make a big deal. I was like, let them know. And she let them know, and they remade it for her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I. I'm proud of myself for. I don't know, just those little. Yeah, I think Another. Oh, maybe this is what's so true. A little nudge is very powerful. Yeah, a little nudge, my friend. But also careful, because a little nudge can be too powerful if you're unsure of who you are. Like, hey, go. Go in there. My friend will nudge me and I will listen. But just, we gotta look out for each other and give each other little nudges. Like that.

[A]

Yeah. Noticing his love. Noticing the little grimace is loving.

[B]

Noticing his love.

[A]

And then there's an additional act of love. Like, notice. If you had noticed the grimace and just given her a smile to say, I saw your grimace, that would be love. A further act of love is saying, what's the grimace about?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did they. Did they mess up your coffee? And even further, you made, like, six or seven acts of love in that moment.

[B]

I made it to third base.

[A]

Yeah. You went to third base with love.

[B]

That wink.

[A]

Third base with love.

[B]

Third base with love. I do think. Yeah. Love is listening. Love is noticing. Love is. I use the bell hooks. Definition. Commitment to one's spiritual growth, the willingness to extend oneself. That. That took a little out of my day. It took an extra 10 seconds. Yeah, I guess I did love that woman.

[A]

That was love.

[B]

Yeah. I am bi.

[A]

I'm deciding that was love. You're bi. You're bi.

[B]

Care and love. It is funny when you're falling for someone, you don't get to say the word love. Like, I care about you. Like, you're shy to tell someone. Like, I love you. Are you me?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, no, I. Girl.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

I went on a first date recently, and I was like, I. I caught myself because I was like, I shouldn't be doing that. But I was like, I can see a world which is very. Which might be very similar to this world where I fall madly and deeply in love with you.

[A]

Could almost be the exact world we're living in.

[B]

Yeah, might be. And then later. Later. Did I say I love you? I won't say.

[A]

But the idea of someone saying, I love you and me saying back, I can see a world.

[B]

No, I said it first.

[A]

But could you imagine it as the response, that's dark. You love me. There are universes in which there we.

[B]

Live in many worlds. Are you familiar with the Marvel Universe?

[A]

There are planes of existence. Can I start there?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thank you for saying that.

[B]

Are you familiar with string theory and vibrations?

[A]

Yes, exactly. Zach.

[B]

Did I. I don't think I did the assignment.

[A]

No, you did a great job. You don't get to ask questions of the barista. Is A great. So true.

[B]

And I'm very. If there's no look, it does beg.

[A]

The question who then do you ask? But that's not important on this show.

[B]

Show Google.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Or a friend.

[A]

Right.

[B]

A trusted confidant.

[A]

I think. I think if I really dove into it, I'm team. You get to ask the barista questions. Even though it.

[B]

When there's my morning.

[A]

Even though I know. I know it sucks. That's why I didn't bring it up.

[B]

True story. I'm in an airport and an old lady is like well, is that problematic that I had to make her an old lady?

[A]

Was she old?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well then you didn't make.

[B]

She was like what's a latte? And so now I'm kind of charmed by the idea of something. You're making it all five year old life and not knowing what a latte is. I need to invent an argument that makes mine. Okay, hold on. I already said you're behind Jeff Bezos. He's like where do you get your beans from the specific city and county now.

[A]

Yeah, the would definitely take it over. Zach, I have a segment for you. You ready?

[B]

Wait. This is an act of love.

[A]

This is an act of love. Yeah, they're. I'm going to read you 15 statements. You're going to tell me as quickly as you can if you think what I just said is true or false. If you get 10 or more correct, we're going to give you 50 US dollars.

[B]

Wow. And may I ask now?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Is it random? What is true and not or did someone sort of make it so that there's some back and forth.

[A]

They're objective of trivia questions.

[B]

But then the order of them. Will you deliver them to me in a random order?

[A]

You're about to find out.

[B]

They're reading. Okay, there are two. And I have to get 10 right.

[A]

You have to get 10 right. Okay, there are two NFL teams.

[B]

Wait, we can't talk about what happened this summer?

[A]

That's the second one. Yeah. You went through a transformative this summer. Tell me about it.

[B]

What's your perfect day?

[A]

There are two NFL teams in the state of New York.

[B]

False.

[A]

False. There are three. Bank of America has more locations in the US than any other bank.

[B]

False.

[A]

False. It's Chase. Uranus is the coldest planet in the solar system.

[B]

True.

[A]

That is true. William Fleming High School won state men's basketball in 2007.

[B]

This is where I went to high school.

[A]

We won what state and men's basketball in 2007.

[B]

I graduated in 2006. I have no idea. True.

[A]

It is true. Every founding member of the band Aerosmith is still alive.

[B]

False. True.

[A]

Oh, Bald Eagles mate for life.

[B]

False. True.

[A]

Spike TV is older than mtv.

[B]

True. False.

[A]

A group of ladybugs is called a loveliness. You're.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

True.

[B]

Even if it's not, thank God. It's true.

[A]

The Princeton Triangle Club was founded in 1905.

[B]

True. False.

[A]

1891. Skittles are banned in Norway.

[B]

True. True.

[A]

Reddit was originally a book review website.

[B]

True. False.

[A]

Oh, the sentence 19 letters long is 19 letters long.

[B]

The sentence 19 letters long is 19 letters Long. Or words letters. The sentence 19 letters long, that's the.

[A]

Sentence is 19 letters long.

[B]

19 letters long. N. Stop doing the math and answer. True.

[A]

It is true. Lawrence Fishburne is 6 foot 5.

[B]

False.

[A]

False. He's 6 foot. Snapchat was discontinued in 2021.

[B]

False.

[A]

That is false. The current mayor of Roanoke, Virginia, is Travis Fleetwood.

[B]

True.

[A]

False. Joseph L. Cobb. How do you do?

[B]

Catching strays.

[A]

Nine.

[B]

No, wait. I want to litigate. Which ones did I get wrong?

[A]

There's nothing to litigate.

[B]

Well, I don't. I could. That could get me out of a lot of mine. That could get me out of a lot. Don't tell anybody.

[A]

So don't sweat it.

[B]

I thought one of the questions gonna. I'm ready to answer. To answer the question I refused to answer earlier.

[A]

Okay. There's two buttons in front of you. One does nothing, one kills somebody. Zach, thank you so much for doing this. This was lovely.

[B]

You don't want to know what my perfect day is.

[A]

I would love to know what your perfect day is. I thought you were doing a bit about yourself, and I wasn't gonna actually push you on it.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

What is your perfect day?

[B]

October 3rd.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's not too hot, not too cold.

[A]

It's really cute.

[B]

All you need is a light jacket.

[A]

A bit of a deflection, but really cute.

[B]

I was thinking about while I was peeing. It involves coffee and maybe an omelet.

[A]

Ooh, what kind of omelet?

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Because, you know, I'm ham, onions, and cheese.

[B]

Well, I'm a vegetarian. Because I don't care about the sentient beings other than humans, and I don't.

[A]

We've made that clear.

[B]

I love cheese. And maybe a little salsa on it. A little creme fraiche, a little sour cream.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And sweet potato fries.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or really good home fries. Like a twice fry, twice baked. Yeah. Fries. English muffin.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Butter jelly. And there should probably Be some sex.

[A]

In your perfect day.

[B]

For my perfect day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think the perfect day starts with.

[A]

A little we'll get you.

[B]

Because I don't know about you guys, I wake up a little ready to go.

[A]

I do. But morning sex is a chore of all chores. Morning sex is like asking me to run a marathon. I'm like, I need. I need a. I need to brush my teeth. I need a shower. I need to stretch. I need, like.

[B]

It's just.

[A]

Just too. Morning sex is like, what?

[B]

No, it's the best.

[A]

I don't like it. And I don't like when someone tries to have morning sex with me without having, like, brush their teeth and whatnot.

[B]

Oh, yeah, you got to go brush.

[A]

You gotta brush.

[B]

Little mints. You don't have a little sex corner with mints and condoms?

[A]

Of course I do. I'm no.

[B]

Gallon of lube.

[A]

Something like that.

[B]

Giant. You know, at a stadium when they've got like. Yeah, ketchup, mustard, mayonnaise.

[A]

Yeah. And I have the little paper cups with it, too.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Bring a paper cup of bloom to the bedroom. Zach, this was so much fun. Thank you for doing it.

[B]

Oh, I had a blast.

[A]

Tell people where they can find you.

[B]

I live at Boundary.

[A]

I live at Boundary.

[B]

I'm on Instagram. Zz Double zz. That's zz. The word double. And zz, that's the big place. Instagram, Tick tock, Twitter. Sorry, Andrew.

[A]

Stand Up Special, which is on YouTube. Yeah.

[B]

Watch my stand up special called Surprise Me. It's about my search for a definition of love. And Dunkin Donuts is there. And then I have a book that came out two years ago called Is It Hot in Here, Or Am I Suffering for All Eternity for the sins I committed on Earth? You can get that on bookshop.com or ask your local independent bookstore to order it for you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Thanks for doing it, Zach.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

That was a Hitgum podcast. What's going on? It's Lamorne Morris and Hannah Simone, and we host the Mess Around a New Girl Rewatch podcast now on Headgum. Now here's the thing. Every single week, we chat about an episode of New Girl. And we really get into it. Like, we get up in there. We get up in there. You know, we reminisce about our times on set. We share behind the scenes tea. We react to rewatching episodes that we haven't seen in years. We talk about how Jake Johnson is dog.

[B]

That's not true. We talk about so many memories we have of working with the biggest star stars on the planet. I'm talking Prince, Taylor Swift, Olivia, Rodrigo.

[A]

We're just two BFFs having a good old time. Okay? Sometimes we even talk to other co stars like Zooey Deschanel, Jake Johnson, Max Greenfield, and Damon Waynes Jr. And your dad. We talk to your dad on this show as well.

[B]

Make sure you subscribe to the Mess around wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every single Tuesday.