Ziwe is a Delight

Summary

Podcast Summary: So True with Caleb Hearon – Episode: "Ziwe is a Delight"

Release Date: August 7, 2025

In this vibrant episode of "So True with Caleb Hearon," hosted by Headgum, Caleb Hearon sits down with the multifaceted comedian and writer, Ziwe Fumudoh, affectionately referred to as Ziwe. The conversation navigates through a tapestry of topics ranging from friendship and podcasting to fashion, public radio, and the intricacies of modern internet culture. Below is a detailed breakdown of their engaging dialogue, interspersed with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

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1. Friendship and Comedic Anecdotes

The episode kicks off with Caleb and Ziwe reminiscing about mutual acquaintances in the comedy scene, particularly Adam Pally.

At [00:42], Caleb shares a humorous anecdote:

Caleb Hearon: “Mr. Gecko, you're a huge inspiration to us all. But who was your muse?”

Ziwe Fumudoh: “I think there are people who I would not talk to again. But you are not one of those people. It's like Adam Pally, right?”

They recount a memorable encounter with Adam Pally at a fancy party, highlighting Caleb's concern for responsible behavior juxtaposed with their comedic personas.

Ziwe adds at [02:43]:

Ziwe Fumudoh: “You remind me of him. He's really funny like him.”

The camaraderie sets a light-hearted tone, emphasizing their shared humor and mutual respect within the comedy community.

2. Podcasting and Media Preferences

Transitioning from personal anecdotes, the duo delves into the realm of podcasting. Caleb expresses his challenges with participating in panel shows, while Ziwe opens up about her reservations towards podcasting.

At [04:04], Ziwe confesses:

Ziwe Fumudoh: “I don't like to do podcasts at all. I actually. This is my first podcast since 2023, maybe.”

She elaborates on her preference for format-specific content, citing her desire for in-depth, edited interviews over casual talk shows.

Caleb reflects at [04:35]:

Caleb Hearon: “It's unbelievable the way people squirm on your show.”

Their discourse highlights the nuances of content creation, editing, and the authenticity they strive for in their respective formats.

3. Public Radio and the State of NPR

A significant portion of the conversation centers on the declining state of National Public Radio (NPR). Both hosts express concern over its survival amidst financial strains and cultural shifts.

At [05:57], Ziwe emphasizes NPR's importance:

Ziwe Fumudoh: “It's the bedrock of democracy.”

Caleb concurs, pointing out the challenges NPR faces with declining subscriptions and funding, underscoring the vital role public radio plays in informed discourse.

Caleb Hearon: “Public radio is so important.”

Their dialogue serves as a poignant reminder of the fragility of public media institutions in the digital age.

4. Accountability and Public Figures

Ziwe introduces a thought-provoking segment on accountability for past actions of public figures. They discuss the morality of holding individuals accountable for indiscretions committed during their youth, especially when those individuals have evolved over time.

At [47:31], Ziwe states:

Ziwe Fumudoh: “You’ve lost the plot. There are better things for you to do with your time than to be stalking young adults from Love Island.”

Caleb adds his perspective on online shaming, arguing against retrospective accountability unless current actions warrant it.

Caleb Hearon: “I just don't think that's ever going to be helpful to us. To. I think it's actually okay... you are doing more damage to the cause than they did when they were 13 posting a slur.”

This segment sparks a critical examination of societal expectations and the evolving nature of personal growth and redemption.

5. Fashion and Personal Interests

The conversation takes a stylish turn as Ziwe shares her deep-rooted passion for fashion. She recounts her journey from thrift store enthusiast to participating in high-profile fashion campaigns.

At [40:23], Ziwe reminisces:

Ziwe Fumudoh: “I've always loved fashion. I never had, like, the money for it, but I've always tried my best with... going to the thrift store and getting the cool little button-up, whatever.”

Caleb invites Ziwe to discuss her surreal fashion moments, leading her to share an experience with Victoria’s Secret.

Ziwe Fumudoh: “I did Victoria's Secret campaign, which I think is so funny. Yeah, yeah. There's a photo of me in my underwear. That's just so funny to me.”

Their discussion celebrates personal style and the intersection of fashion with individual identity, adding a glamorous layer to the episode.

6. Sex, Relationships, and Personal Anecdotes

Caleb and Ziwe delve into more intimate territories, sharing personal stories and reflections on sex and relationships.

At [11:27], Caleb narrates:

Caleb Hearon: “You're almost having sex in the Delta, which is even better than doing it, by the way.”

Ziwe candidly discusses her experiences with dating in New York City, highlighting the challenges of finding meaningful connections amidst the city's bustling environment.

At [10:38], Ziwe shares:

Ziwe Fumudoh: “I'm having fun during sex. I don't have a lot of sex.”

This honest exchange underscores the complexities of modern relationships and the balancing act between personal satisfaction and societal expectations.

7. Internet Culture and the Loss of Individuality

A recurring theme throughout the episode is the impact of internet culture on individuality and regional diversity.

At [14:26], Ziwe observes:

Ziwe Fumudoh: “We're buying the same things and watching the same movies and having the same cultural references. So it's hard to find new and fresh and different and exciting.”

Caleb echoes these sentiments, lamenting the homogenization of culture due to algorithm-driven content consumption.

Caleb Hearon: “It's now this flatter, weirder thing where everything is equally mediocre all at the same time.”

Their conversation highlights a deeper concern about the erosion of unique cultural identities in the face of pervasive digital influence.

8. Interactive Segment: "Guess That Sound"

Injecting a playful element into the discussion, Caleb introduces an interactive game segment where Ziwe tests her knowledge with rapid-fire true or false statements.

At [51:14], Caleb explains the rules:

Caleb Hearon: “You're going to tell me if you think it's true or false. And Z way, if you get 10 or more correct, I'm going to give you 50 US dollars.”

Ziwe navigates through statements about the largest ocean, Pixar’s first movie, canine sweating glands, and more, showcasing her quick wit and general knowledge.

Notably at [52:00], after scoring 11 out of 15:

Ziwe Fumudoh: “Wow. Thank you.”

This segment not only entertains but also strengthens the rapport between the hosts, adding a layer of spontaneity to the episode.

9. Final Thoughts and Future Projects

As the episode draws to a close, Caleb and Ziwe discuss upcoming projects and express mutual support for each other's endeavors.

At [59:08], Ziwe encourages listeners:

Ziwe Fumudoh: “Watch my interview with Jigs Monsoon soon. Watch my interview with Caleb Heron. And feel free to watch my other interviews. They're coming out monthly until I do more. But who knows when?”

Caleb reciprocates by promoting his own ventures and expressing admiration for Ziwe’s work.

Caleb Hearon: “We just love you, Caleb. We did it Z way.”

Their closing remarks emphasize a sense of community and ongoing collaboration within the comedy and podcasting landscapes.

---

Key Takeaways and Insights

1. Authenticity in Media: Both Caleb and Ziwe emphasize the importance of genuine content creation, steering away from superficial or algorithm-driven formats to maintain their unique voices.

2. The Fragility of Public Institutions: The discussion on NPR underscores the vulnerabilities of public media in maintaining quality and accessibility in a rapidly changing financial and cultural environment.

3. Evolving Accountability Standards: Ziwe and Caleb challenge the societal norms surrounding past indiscretions of public figures, advocating for a more nuanced understanding of personal growth and redemption.

4. Cultural Homogenization: The hosts express concern over the loss of regional and individual uniqueness due to the pervasive influence of internet algorithms, fostering a more uniform cultural landscape.

5. Personal Growth and Resilience: Through their personal anecdotes, Caleb and Ziwe highlight the journey of self-discovery, resilience, and the continuous pursuit of authenticity in their respective fields.

6. Community and Collaboration: The episode underscores the value of community within the comedy scene, showcasing how mutual support and collaboration can foster growth and innovation.

Notable Quotes

• On Individuality and Culture:

  Caleb Hearon [15:36]: "We're losing the sense of the weirdos and the freaks and the... kind of getting beaten out of the broader culture."

• On Accountability:

  Caleb Hearon [49:24]: "Why do they need to be accountable to you, a stranger?"

• On Public Radio:

  Ziwe Fumudoh [04:57]: "It's the bedrock of democracy."

• On Podcasting Challenges:

  Ziwe Fumudoh [04:04]: “I don't like to do podcasts at all. This is my first podcast since 2023, maybe.”

Conclusion

In this episode of "So True with Caleb Hearon," listeners are treated to an intimate and thought-provoking conversation between two vibrant personalities in the comedy world. Through candid exchanges and insightful discussions, Caleb and Ziwe explore the intersections of media authenticity, cultural identity, personal growth, and the complexities of modern relationships. Their dynamic interplay offers both entertainment and enlightenment, making this episode a compelling listen for those seeking depth and humor in their podcast experience.

Transcript

[Caleb Huron]

This is a headgum podcast.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

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[Caleb Huron]

Oh, my dear old nan. She imparted many wise words to me. She would say, never let the fame get to your head. Always remember who you are and let people get more than just savings. With Geico's fast and friendly claim support, I lived up to her advice, and now anyone can file a claim anywhere and anytime. I miss her so much. Did she go somewhere? Extended quilting trip. Oh. Get more than just savings. Get more with Geico to be a true individual. I'm not claiming that I am one. I just think that we're losing that, like, the sense of the weirdos and the freaks and the. You know, I think it's kind of getting, like, beaten out of the broader culture.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It's literally the book Divergent, which I.

[Caleb Huron]

Haven'T read, nor have I. So let's talk about it. Do you have the fear that I have about me doing your show again? That's like, maybe we had lightning in a bottle and it won't hit.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I. No, not for you.

[Caleb Huron]

I won't. That I won't show up the way that I need to for the second one.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I think there are people who I would not talk to again. But you are not one of those people. It's like Adam Pally, right? Adam Pally is someone who can. Whatever he delivers. It's new and weird and funny.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

You are the same way.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

I love Adam.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I love Adam.

[Caleb Huron]

I love Adam. He's really so sweet.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

He's really funny. You're really funny like him. You remind me of him.

[Caleb Huron]

He really. One time we were at a party. I don't know, it's like Chateau Marmont or something. Some fancy place that I have been twice and shouldn't have been in in the first place. And he was like. He was like, hey, man, did you drive? And I was like, yeah, I brought my car. And he was like, oh, nice. Can you drop me at a sushi place? After this.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Shut up.

[Caleb Huron]

And I laughed because I was like, oh, he's kidding. And he was like, no, I need a ride to the sushi place. And then I did drop him at a sushi place, and he's just like, thanks.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Nice meeting you.

[Caleb Huron]

No, we knew each other, but he was like. He was like. He was like, thanks, man. Have a good night. And I was like, all right, Adam, see you around, I guess.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Insane. That tracks so funny. That's really, really wild. He did Match Games the day after I shot mine in Montreal. And so it was just nice to, like, cross paths.

[Caleb Huron]

What is Match Games?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Match Games? Oh, it's a really important show that's from the 50s or 60s, and Martin Short is hosting it now. It's like a game show on abc. And I did it with Selena Gomez and Cara Delevingne and. Yeah. And so it just cycles in a bunch of comedians, slides them all Montreal. And it was just a fun time.

[Caleb Huron]

I haven't been asked.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

You haven't been asked yet?

[Caleb Huron]

I haven't been asked, but, you know.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I have the Midas touch.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, yeah, put it on there. Put. Tell them. Kill. Actually, don't tell them. I don't do panel shows.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, you don't?

[Caleb Huron]

I don't do it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I won't do it. I had. That was my first one ever, but I would do it again.

[Caleb Huron]

Really?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

I can't do them. Every time I get asked, I'm like. It just feels like too much to me. I feel like I'm competing. I feel like I'm in, like, a sack race.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Well, I was competitive, and I didn't know how to play until the second game, so my first showing was pathetic, but hopefully the second showing isn't.

[Caleb Huron]

Has they. Have these aired yet? Yours?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, one aired, like, three weeks ago. Two weeks ago.

[Caleb Huron]

Well, okay, I need to tap in.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

I need to get up on my Zway lore.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, please don't.

[Caleb Huron]

No, no. You don't want me to.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No.

[Caleb Huron]

Why? Do you feel. Okay, I have a question for you. Doing an interview like this, where we're just being ourselves.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes. Just being.

[Caleb Huron]

Do you prefer this or do you prefer. Also, do you view your show as being a character? Do you view that as being different than.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes.

[Caleb Huron]

Yes.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, for sure.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, for sure. Well, I feel that it is, but I'm like, yeah, how much you want to talk about that, but yes.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. I don't want to give away my trade secrets. Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

But do you think that. Do you prefer this or that?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I don't like to do podcasts at all. I actually. This is my first podcast since 2023, maybe. Whoa. Yeah. I really say no, but I have respect for you, and I want you to come back and do another interview. And so I know that I have to do the work. Oh, my God. And show up. So here I am.

[Caleb Huron]

That sucks. I'm so sorry that you have to do this.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It's okay. I don't have to do anything.

[Caleb Huron]

What was that? You really don't. What was the 2023? What made you stop doing podcasts? Was there a particular experience, or were you just like, you know what? I'm zway and I'm good.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I don't think podcasts, by and large, are very good.

[Caleb Huron]

I agree.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

So it's just a taste thing. I think that they need to be edited, obviously. I have, like, a really strong pov, so I don't find that in a lot of podcasts. And the work is just, like, two people in front of a camera, and it's like, this is our new talk show. And I have such esteem for the talk show format that I just. It's not something I'm inclined to do. Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

What's your favorite talk show of all time?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I can't even say because I go through phases. Like, I went through a big Barbara Walters phase. Obviously, she's talked, like, news, but. So I was watching her top 10 interviews, including the one where she, like, makes Ms. Lewinsky cry, which was hard to watch. And then I. Obviously, Wendy Williams is just like, laugh out loud.

[Caleb Huron]

It's unbelievably funny.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It's offensive. And imagine being the celebrity in that place. Like, I would feel so bad. I would be so afraid to attend that show and be a guest. But, man, oh, man, those clips are sticky.

[Caleb Huron]

She's the blueprint.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I saw your episode with Marie recently. Yeah, that was really sweet.

[Caleb Huron]

I love Marie.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

She's really funny. I tried to get her to do an interview, but then she was also in Canada, actually. Yeah. People are shooting in Canada a lot.

[Caleb Huron]

I know.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

Well, everyone wants to skirt unions, so we're gonna have to film everything now in Canada and London, which is awesome. I love that we can't film things in here anymore because the companies don't want to pay the unions. That's awesome. But you're. You don't want me to say that on camera.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I don't really. I don't have an opinion. I shoot in America. I shoot in New York City, baby.

[Caleb Huron]

We shoot in America. Hey, these shows are American. Made in the usa. Me also not Getting my camera. Hello, it's there. Hello, it's there. Wait, what was I going to ask you? Oh, okay. I saw. I came to your live show that you did.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, yes. With Alex English's live show. Yes, yes.

[Caleb Huron]

And you were so fabulous on it. And you talked about your Wikifeet score.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes, my Wikifeet.

[Caleb Huron]

How is it going? What's the journey? Has there been any improvement that you're proud of?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes, I'm actually in the top percentile. I have, like, 4.58 wiki feet. I think that's exact. So they're going well. I don't like feet, but I've just learned to not have shame around my feet.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

As much as I did before, but I still do.

[Caleb Huron]

How'd you get the score up? Did people really.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, I told people. I literally went around the country and around the globe, like, to. To Europe and was like, vote for my wiki feet, please, please, please. And people did. They rocked the vote. And so I'm up, up, up. I am up, up, up.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, they rocked the vote. They went to the ballot box and they made their voices heard.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Exactly. And so Now I'm. I'm 4.5, which is, I think, great feet. Excellent feet. Amazing feet. Someone checked me on that.

[Caleb Huron]

I don't think I'm even on there.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, they're not a lot of men, but they're not lemonade.

[Caleb Huron]

Don Lemon is.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, I think he is.

[Caleb Huron]

How's his rating?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I don't remember. I think it's probably good, but, like, a lot of the anchors are. The male anchors are, because I talk. I talk about wiki feet more than I should, but, yeah, I'm on it.

[Caleb Huron]

How did you start doing Baited?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

This was in 2016. It was the day after Hillary famously lost, and I just shot an interview series, and I just think it's really funny to make people uncomfortable. And so that was the brain child behind that.

[Caleb Huron]

It is really funny the way that people squirm on your show.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Well, also, I think it has to do with. Well, let me not spill too much, too. I think we live in an era of surveillance, and as a result, people are hyper conscious of the self that moves through public spaces. And I find that to be interesting.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. So the day after the election, you, what, just called up some friends and were like, I want to do this show today. Let's do it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No, I was planning on shooting, like, a web series that day regardless. But it. I was inspired to kind of shift the idea to be more incendiary. I guess.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

How was the process for you of moving from you were doing that show online and then. And then on. You were doing a lot of interviews on Instagram Live.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. So it started on YouTube and then it. And then it changes. It reiterates and becomes Instagram Live show during the pandemic when we were all going live, and then it became a television show, and then it became a YouTube show again.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. How was that transition to. Because I'm very inspired by the fact that you took it from what it was on your own to a network and then kept it going afterwards. And I. It seems to me like it's going really well post network.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, wow. Thank you.

[Caleb Huron]

What. How has that transition been through all the different phases? What's been difficult about it or interesting?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I think every single Iter. I. This is something I think I'll be doing until I die, honestly. And so I think every single iteration, you just learn from the medium, what sticks, what doesn't stick, what's functional, what it changes and grows and evolves. So, like, it started off with really baiting people. And obviously the interview with Jinx Monsoon, which is the latest, doesn't feel as much in that space, even though the questions themselves are sort of wild and inappropriate. So, yeah, I'm just always kind of trying to. With each guest, even. I think the show evolves. Like, I thought our interview was sort of like this watershed moment after I had done a couple criminals who have been, you know, arrested and have. Or serving time. And your interview was so different than that, but still in the same, like, accusatory manner. I don't know.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. I work through. I work through my process with each guest.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Until I find my final form.

[Caleb Huron]

It does really feel that you are treating each guest as their own individual thing.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes.

[Caleb Huron]

It feels that you're approaching it in a very specific way every time and you're not asking. I'm glad it's not the same questions across the board and just seeing how people react.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Thank you.

[Caleb Huron]

I appreciate the individualized effort.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Thank you for saying that. Yeah. I never want to get stale or dusty.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. And you're dating in New York right now, by the way. I'm. I've got so many things in my mind to ask you.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. I'm dating. I'm dating in New York City, but not really. I'm open to dates. People really don't approach me with the sexual energy, even though I think that I. I exude.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Exude horny.

[Caleb Huron]

I've always said that. About you.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Thank you.

[Caleb Huron]

Zwe exudes horny.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I exude horny. And so. So people never ask me on dates, but I. I'm going on a date tomorrow, which I'm excited about.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. And I guess I went on a date yesterday, but I don't like to think about it.

[Caleb Huron]

Like, are you on the apps?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No. Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

You're too chic for that, huh?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I like. I go. I go on and off. Raya, depending on how depressed I am. But it's. I haven't had any success, Raya.

[Caleb Huron]

To me, I think jail everyone who made it. I think jail everyone who continues to work on it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

I think Raya is one of the most depressing places I've ever been.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Not cool, but I hear it's good for gay men.

[Caleb Huron]

I'm sure that it is. Everywhere is good for gay men because gay men are getting active.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

Gay men. Well, you know, gay men find sex in bathrooms.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Like, I know. At the airport.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It's crazy to me.

[Caleb Huron]

Gay men are at the airport in a big way.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Wild.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I would never feel horny after tsa.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, they do. Maybe even that's part of it. I mean, really. I almost. I got this close to fucking once at an airport. Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Joking.

[Caleb Huron]

No, he, like, I went through the line, and then he messaged me on Grindr and was like, you just came through my line. You're so cute. And I was like, okay, I'm in the Delta Lounge. And he was. He was like. He was like, yeah, I have to.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Work because it's, like, a national security risk.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. And then he was like, wait. He was like. He was like, I get off in, like, an hour. Is your flight gone before then? I was like, yeah, I'll be boarded. And he was like, next time. I was like, all right. But I was down. I was like, if you want to come to. If you can get yourself into the Delta Lounge. Yeah. But I don't.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And it's just you and a man in, like, yellow vest in the Dutch Lounge would have.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. In the bathroom, because the four. The doors go all the way to the floor and the bathroom. I would have. I would have had sex with him in there. No problem. Well, I love a story, and I like to have a good time, and I like to be myself and be free and in any space. That can happen. Sometimes that happens in the Delta. You know, really what the Delta Lounge bathroom is for is going to the bathroom right before your flight. Oh, you have to go to the bathroom right before your flight?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes.

[Caleb Huron]

Pee Poop, Wash your hands, brush your teeth, do whatever. You meant do whatever you need to do in there, y'. All. Including, including up to peeing, pooping, brushing.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Your teeth, getting active with a TSA agent that way. Okay, well, I'm really putting me on game right now.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

Gay guys. Yeah, but that's the thing. You can't ever judge the effectiveness or the goodness of a thing by whether or not gay men can use it to get laid.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I know, but y' all have so much fun.

[Caleb Huron]

We do have fun. It is fun to be a gay guy. I know, but then in many ways, it's not, is it?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Who are you talking to? Me?

[Caleb Huron]

See? Wait, you know, enough gay guys. We've talked about this before. You know, enough gay guys to sound off on this. I feel. I feel like you could. But I do feel for. I feel for straight people.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, you do?

[Caleb Huron]

Straight people are going through a lot over there.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. I mean, I think we're, you know, we're at a time where it's, like, super straight. Be as straight as possible. Like, wear your darker jeans. Right? Yeah, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. It's really hard. We live in an echo chamber, so it's, like, fabulous. Like, it's like, literally free to be me. And then you go anywhere out of the this, wherever you are, and it's like, hyper, authoritarian. And, like, really?

[Caleb Huron]

I do feel that.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. So it's hard for me to say beyond my community.

[Caleb Huron]

I don't see. I went to a Walmart in Missouri recently, and I saw no scene kids. I saw no kids with big, swoopy black hair, weird makeup, odd piercings. And I thought in a suburb of Kansas City and Missouri, this used to be. Those kids used to run this fucking place.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I know, but they changed the living wage. They can't get on that damn bus.

[Caleb Huron]

Scene kids have been priced out.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

And, yeah, it's weird. I do think the, like, weird individual. Somebody was talking about this recently. I don't remember if it was, like, in a video or. And I don't remember how I consumed it, but the idea that, like, identity is flattening because of the Internet.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I agree.

[Caleb Huron]

Well, speak on it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Wholeheartedly.

[Caleb Huron]

Speak on it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I think that there are people who would not know culture unless it was served to them in an algorithm.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And as a result, we are watching people dress alike and sound alike. Like, we're even losing, like, regional, like, dialect. It's now the Internet voice, Gen Z voice, which is, like, black voice from like the hood, like, 20 years ago, people saying dead ass. And they're like, gen Z. It's like, no, that's always been around. But I find that everyone is. We're buying the same things and watching the same movies and having the same cultural references. So it's hard to find new and fresh and different and exciting.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

Everyone's dressing. Yeah. They see a trend. They're like, oh, this is what everyone's wearing right now on Tick Tock.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

And then they're doing that all across the country. It used to be at least that, like, there used to be big. A big joke in the middle of the country that, like, if you went to a hip coffee shop in Cincinnati, it's whatever was happening in Williamsburg seven years.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

You know. Or whatever was happening in the East Village seven years prior to that was the big joke is that it took time for those things to travel over. And now it's actually this flatter. Weirder thing where everything is equally mediocre all at the same time. And so you are. You're losing regional accents. You're using. Losing regional, like, ways of dressing and things.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

And it was really interesting to watch, like, to be a true individual. I'm not claiming that I am one. I just think that we're losing that, like, the sense of, like, the weirdos and the freaks and the. You know, I think it's kind of getting beaten out of the broader culture.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It's literally the book Divergent, which I haven't read.

[Caleb Huron]

Nor have I. So let's talk about it. That's podcasting, by the way. I haven't read this book. Neither have I. Let's discuss what happens in Divergent that you know of.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It's bad to be divergent. I know what the word means.

[Caleb Huron]

I've been saying.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

So I imagine that's like the Internet.

[Caleb Huron]

Well, you shouldn't diverge. No, that's the lesson of divergence.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Exactly.

[Caleb Huron]

And if you do.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

But then. But then they win. The Divergent.

[Caleb Huron]

When you diverge.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

Fuck.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

But maybe it's like the giver. No, that's just about seeing color.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. What's the Giving Tree? That's what I'm thinking.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

That's Dr. Seuss.

[Caleb Huron]

Nice. And the tree, of course, gives. Right. I'm like, we don't have children.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

We don't have children.

[Caleb Huron]

Have I ever read a book, by the way.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes. Have you read Harry Potter?

[Caleb Huron]

I never read the books.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I never read the books either. I wasn't allowed Heroes. I grew up in the Church.

[Caleb Huron]

Did you Heroes? Yes. Well, kind of.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Okay.

[Caleb Huron]

I grew up in a very religious community.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes. Missouri.

[Caleb Huron]

Missouri. But my mom was. My mom's always been like a. Like, we're Christian, but that just means be nice to people and we don't have to be crazy about it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes.

[Caleb Huron]

So she was like, the cool version of it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Chic.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, it was pretty chic. Where did you grow up?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Massachusetts.

[Caleb Huron]

Right?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. And it was not. It was like, you will go to hell.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. Not chill.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No, not chill at all. No.

[Caleb Huron]

What part of Massachusetts, like, Boston.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

North of Boston.

[Caleb Huron]

I just wondered if you were close to Taylor Guerin. Did you see her on TV as a kid?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, yeah, of course. Of course I saw her. Yeah. I remember seeing her. Zoom Boomafoo. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was a star. I know her from the New York comedy scene, and so we connected over that. Yeah, yeah, she was. That girl was like the black girl on Zoom Boomafoo. Which, even though PBS is canceled, is it. It's not canceled. Like, cancel culture. It's canceled. Like, they defunded it. Like, they defunded it. And, like, offices are closing.

[Caleb Huron]

I know public radio is in a really tough spot.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I'm really worried. I donated to npr.

[Caleb Huron]

I know it's really tough right now. But you know what? This is what I say, say Lavi. Oh, what am I supposed to say? Lovey.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And. And what does that mean in this context?

[Caleb Huron]

In this context, it means I can't fund public radio personally. I can send my little donation and continue listening, but, like, yikes.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It's the bedrock of democracy.

[Caleb Huron]

Public radio is so important.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I know. Let's go. Let's move on.

[Caleb Huron]

What was that sound? There's a weird sound in the space. Don't cut this, by the way. Leave this in. Something's happening with the door, and chance is going out to find it anyway. Npr. Wait, what's your favorite NPR show? Do you have one?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No, I just listen to the daily news show.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. Oh, I listen to podcasts, but news podcasts exclusively.

[Caleb Huron]

Which. Which.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

So time. I think time up. Or up Time up. Is that what it's called on time this Time up first up. First up first. And then I listen to Wall street, this something or another. I forgot the name. What's news? I don't remember the names. What's news up first. And then I listened to a bitch Like a House Housewives podcast called Bitch Sesh.

[Caleb Huron]

Oh, I know. Bitch. Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Those are my. Yeah, Danielle and Casey.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. I think those girls are so funny.

[Caleb Huron]

Danielle is such A brilliant tv.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

She can write.

[Caleb Huron]

She can write.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

She can write.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, yeah. We worked on a show together.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Which show?

[Caleb Huron]

It never came out. It got canceled by Hulu during the strikes. But it was a Dan Levy and Ally Penk animated show that Danielle wrote on and the Britannic guys and Nori.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Reed and dang, that sinks that it didn't get green lit.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, really great room. A bunch of other people too. Sabrina, Julie's, whoever, if anyone's listening. I'm sorry I didn't mention everyone, but yeah, it was a. It was a really fun room. We were. We were in the middle of the room when the strike started and then.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It just never came back.

[Caleb Huron]

Never came back. They paid out our contracts and then we didn't finish it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, sorry.

[Caleb Huron]

I think it was gonna be good. It was. Dan and Ally created it together. But Danielle, yeah, she.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

She's funny.

[Caleb Huron]

She's very funny.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

She's a really. Yeah. So I listen. I just think there. So funny. And so I listened to episodes that also introduced me to a lot of comedians, like Adam Pally. Like, he did that. He's like a fave or Yasser Lester, but I just think they're funny. He's funny. I know.

[Caleb Huron]

He's so funny. I haven't seen his bowling movie yet. I need to know.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I did. I saw it. It was great.

[Caleb Huron]

I need to see it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It was fantastic. Like, laugh out loud funny.

[Caleb Huron]

I really, really love him. He's so funny. Who are. Okay, speaking of funny people that we love, who are your biggest inspirations in comedy? I want to ask.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Ooh, that is a great question. Who are my biggest inspirations? Tina Fey, obviously. I like writers. I'm attracted to writers, people who can write really well. So. Tina Fey. I remember reading the Steve Martin book Born Standing Up. Have you read it?

[Caleb Huron]

I haven't read, like, any comedy books, but I know of it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Okay. It's like the standard bearer of autobiographies, especially if you're trying to be. If you're an aspiring artist or comedian. And it is just about his journey to stardom. Steve Martins. And that's really good. So I really admire him. Who else? Colbert is a huge influence of mine. Yeah, obviously. Who else?

[Caleb Huron]

What do you think of his show getting canceled? Political or.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No, I think it's both.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

What do I know?

[Caleb Huron]

I think it's. I think it's convenient that it. I think it. I think they wanted to cancel it anyway because of the money situation, and I think it's very convenient for them that they have that Excuse because they, they. They don't want him saying the things he's saying.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. I'm excited to see what a year of him unleashed looks like.

[Caleb Huron]

I am.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I'm really curious to see what that means.

[Caleb Huron]

And I'm excited for his. Conan had a really great. I left the network era. Dave Letterman has a great one. I'm excited for his post network. Like, what's he going to do? That's exciting.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It's exciting. Yeah. So Colbert Report. I just remember watching that in high school and it was my introduction into satire and thinking it was like the coolest thing because you could say anything offensive that would get you otherwise in trouble, but because it has great politics, you're allowed to do it. So I really appreciated it that.

[Caleb Huron]

I think you and I both operate on that. We both. We both operate on that, Matt. Like that idea that you can get away with saying very funny, like, audacious or inappropriate things because you trust that the audience knows your. Your actual beliefs.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I think so.

[Caleb Huron]

Do you know what I mean?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes. But then sometimes they. I hope so. But then some. Sometimes they don't know anything.

[Caleb Huron]

Oh, I. Yeah, for sure. Our interview left the target audience a couple times.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, really?

[Caleb Huron]

And I would hard.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Do you think?

[Caleb Huron]

Oh, my God. I would get comments in DMs that were like, oh, God, people DMing me and being like. Like, particularly the way, like when you were asking me about apologizing for slavery. When we were chatting, when we were.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Talking about too, I got some texts.

[Caleb Huron]

And people being like, the way he's dismissing this black woman. I was like, guys, we are doing a format show. They were mad at me. Zway, really.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

So I also. I got a lot of messages that were like the opposite, which were, how could you make him apologize?

[Caleb Huron]

Oh, I saw this as well.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, that gets my gear.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. They were like. They're like. They're like, he has nothing to apologize for. Why is she doing this? I'm like, guys, we're doing. I know we're in a format. Right.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It gets me mad. It gets me. The comments get me mad. So I have to just divest. I can't invest at all.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

In even the good comments because they rile me up.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Truly.

[Caleb Huron]

What do you do when you. What do you do when you're feeling that way? Like, how do you get yourself out of that? Do you ever feel you find yourself falling into that hole?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I think I just do another interview. And they're so different.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And so then it's like, I. It's. I'M in a new hole. Like, I'm not really thinking about you like that.

[Caleb Huron]

Jumping from hole to hole.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, exactly. I'm. Yes. I love hole.

[Caleb Huron]

Much like the gay guys on Raya Honey Honey.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And at the Delta Lounge.

[Caleb Huron]

Hole to hole. Z Way is jumping from hole to hole.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No, I wish it was.

[Caleb Huron]

No, that's not you.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I wish I was. I'm a Charlotte.

[Caleb Huron]

You? Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

What are you?

[Caleb Huron]

Well, it's been the subject of much consternation.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Really? Really?

[Caleb Huron]

Yes. I mean, my fans. I don't want you to be offended when I say this. My fans called me Charlotte, and it made me want to kill myself. Because I am. I am not a. Or a slut. But I have trafficked in those spaces.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

So is Charlotte.

[Caleb Huron]

No, Charlotte's a freak.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Hoe.

[Caleb Huron]

No.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes, he was.

[Caleb Huron]

Anyway, she's like a. She's like a sad, virginal figure who, like, puts up with the guy who won't touch her for way too long.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Because she wants to be married for that lovely apartment.

[Caleb Huron]

See, but that's not with Harry. That's not how I move.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Got it. So you would just. You would leave him?

[Caleb Huron]

Oh, for sure. So I just think. Look, I wanted what I wanted to stayed.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I would have stayed longer.

[Caleb Huron]

What I want people to say is. What I want people to say is you're. I want them to say, caleb, you are the fun, sexy, exciting charisma of Samantha with the lead character energy of Carrie.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Of course. I mean, of course. I'm a mix of them.

[Caleb Huron]

Yes, of course.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes.

[Caleb Huron]

Yes, of course.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

You do have the lead character energy of Carrie.

[Caleb Huron]

Thank you.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And the sexual rawness of Samantha. I think that I am a Carrie sun. Samantha rising. Charlotte Moon.

[Caleb Huron]

Okay. And will you remind me what sun rising and moon means?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

The sun is myself.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

The moon is the inner self that people may or may not know. And the rising is what the world projects onto me.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. What are your actual sun, Moon rising.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Pisces sun, Capricorn moon, Scorpio rising, which also tracks with those three women, but maybe it's Miranda instead of Charlotte.

[Caleb Huron]

Okay, interesting.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

But I have weird religious thing, religious trauma, so that's why I can identify with Charlotte.

[Caleb Huron]

Where are you at with religion these days, can I ask?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Chilling. I'm fine.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, you're chilling.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, exactly. I'm like, God, I feel like whenever you talk about the fact that you. If we see you performing at a megachurch, it's because you need the money. That's how I feel about fascism, where it's like, oh, okay. If they're really rounding us up. You'll just hear me start singing. Amazing grooves.

[Caleb Huron]

They're banging on the door, and you're like, yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Literally. Literally. I'll be like, okay. You're really gonna see me get real. Real handmade, stale. Yeah. Yeah. So that's where I stand on it. I think it's like Walt Whitman, where, like, heaven and hell are, like, what we become after death. So it's like, oh, like, we see grass. We see that the birds eat the grass, and we see that bigger birds eat the birds. And, you know, it's the circle of life. Like, I feel like that is our version of afterlife.

[Caleb Huron]

So God, yes or no?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

God, yes or God, yes or no? That's a complicated. Because God is in the trees.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

What do you see when you see the ocean? That's God.

[Caleb Huron]

So do you see God as a figure that exists and doles out judgment when we leave? No.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No.

[Caleb Huron]

So you don't think there's a. You don't think there'll be, like, a. You don't think there'll be a hell for bad people that God sent?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I think this is hell.

[Caleb Huron]

You think Earth is hell? You and my mom are very aligned on this. You and my mom are very aligned on this. Well, then why am I having so much damn fun?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

You are.

[Caleb Huron]

If Earth is hell, honey, why am I having a great time? Oh, God, that speaks poorly of me, doesn't it?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No. I think you're all having sex in the Delta Lounge. I get it. Like, you're setting yourself up for fun.

[Caleb Huron]

I'm almost having sex in the Delta, which is even better than doing it, by the way.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, it's like the. The Promise.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, it's the. It's the thought. It's the. You get to walk away being like, I would have done that. You know, you get to walk away being like, I'm somebody who would have done that. And then you don't actually have to clean up or anything. Sex is messy, don't you find?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No.

[Caleb Huron]

Nice.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I don't think I'm having enough fun during sex.

[Caleb Huron]

It really.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It's very neat and clean.

[Caleb Huron]

Really? You're keeping it very tidy. I just think if you. In the Delta Lounge, it's like, some things are gonna drip.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, my gosh.

[Caleb Huron]

They are. You're at work and I'm traveling. Nothing's gonna drip.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I just told you that. I'm a Charlotte.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. Wait, you really don't think you're having fun during sex? Because I am very interested in that.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No, probably not. No. I'm having fun during sex. I don't have a lot of sex.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, I. I related to that, though, because I am having fun during sex. But there have been eras of my life where sex felt like. Like a thing I just had to do. Like, I'm so horny that I need to have sex, but doing it was just like, God, it's like taking out the trash. You know what I mean?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No, say more.

[Caleb Huron]

I'm not in that right now. I guess I was depressed. I'm not that right now. But I feel like there was a chunk of time in my mid-20s where I would. I would sleep with people and just be like, God, I do really want to come. I am not horny, but I just. This person's coming over here. I have to, like, clean my house. And then, like. And then I want to be a good. I want to be a good sexual partner. So I have to, like, invest in their coming as well, you know? And then, of course I do, because I'm a good guy and a really good lover, by the way. But, yeah, it was. There was a. There was like a period of like a year and a half there. I was like, this is such a chore.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I think that any relationship, anything during your 20s, is hell. Like, you're sort of working through what you like, what you dislike, what you're. You know, you're who you are. So that's not too shocking to me.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Now that it seems like you. You've aged out of that and you're just enjoying all the smooches that you get along the way.

[Caleb Huron]

I do. I really do. It reminds me of that Bernie Mac, that set that he did where he's like, I love sex. I love it by the pound.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

What does that mean?

[Caleb Huron]

It's just Bernie being Bernie. What? You just love sex. What are you gonna do?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Loves it by the pound. I love it. I'm not saying that I don't love it. I'm just saying that I don't know.

[Caleb Huron]

Well, you're not having a lot of it. You did say that.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, but you're too chic for that.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No, I. What does chic me like?

[Caleb Huron]

You're like. I just feel like, when are you going to have sex? You're like, in glam. You're at the fashion event. You're being too. And these guys won't come up to you. There's too much. They don't come in the culture.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I know. I have a lot of power.

[Caleb Huron]

You do. If I was a straight man, I would not come up to you.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I. That's so hurtful.

[Caleb Huron]

No, you're gorgeous and intimidating. I'm dead serious.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Thank you. No, I'm at. This is something that I am at peace with. I don't want to be a scary person, but I recognize that whatever I move through the world, I just carry with me like, I don't know, a stick that says, you know what? You know how they say, like, walk lightly but carry like, I carry with me the stick. And for some reason people are intimidated and that is my blessing and is my curse.

[Caleb Huron]

I don't find you scary to start there.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Okay.

[Caleb Huron]

I do not find you scary. And I think anyone who would say that to you kind of and has some work to do, I don't like that. Thank you guys. Why drop a fortune on basics when you don't have to? Dropping a fortune on basics sounds like my 20s. Quince has the good stuff. High quality fabrics, classic fits and lightweight layers for warm weather. All at prices that make sense. No matter what you're looking for, Quince is always a solid choice. The best part, everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury pieces without the markups. I'm always wanting to go direct to my artisans, so I you can do that with Quince now and get rid of these middlemen between you and your artisans. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. We love that. I've had my eye on their cashmere baseball caps for some time now. I just might snatch up a whole bundle of them and send them to my loved ones as gifts. To say thanks for being you. Keep it classic and cool with long lasting staples from quince, go to quince.com so true for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U-I-N-C-E.com so tree to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com so true. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim your domain, which sounds like a law that shouldn't exist. Showcase your offerings with a Prof. Professional website, grow your brand and get paid all in one place. We all could use a good website in this day and age. I tell you what. And Squarespace has so many awesome features to get yours up and running. Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one place. From consultations to events and experiences. Showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. Get paid on time with professional on brand invoices and online payments. Plus streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Get discovered fast with integrated Squarespace SEO tools. Every website is optimized to be indexed with meta descriptions, an auto generated sitemap and more. So you show up more often on search engines and bring in more of your ideal customers. Head to squarespace.com so true for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code so true to save 10 off your first search purchase of a website or domain.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Wherever you go, whatever they get into, from chill time to everyday adventures, Protect your dog from parasites with Credelio Guattro. For full safety information, side effects and warnings, visit cordelioquattrolabel.com consult your vet or call 1-888-545-5973. Ask your vet for Cordelio Cuatro and visit quattrodog.com when I envision myself as.

[Caleb Huron]

A straight man, I think that so many straight men are genuinely intimidated by brilliant, hilarious women.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Thank you.

[Caleb Huron]

Who have their life put together. And I, I actually do think that if I was a straight man, I would be too intimidated to come up and fight.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Really? Yes. No, I'm a pleasure. I'm a delight.

[Caleb Huron]

You are a delight. Again, it's nothing. It's not about you. It's about who I think I would be if I was straight.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I only got it. People with self confidence, like I only like high self esteem people. I think I'm a high self esteem person.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, I think you are too.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Thank you.

[Caleb Huron]

You're a high value woman.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes. What does that mean though?

[Caleb Huron]

I don't know.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I started reading that and I was like, is this like a dowry, like cattle thing? What's going on with this verbiage?

[Caleb Huron]

You know what I mean?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

You know, high value. What is like.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think oftentimes that's if we're being earnest. I think that's like coded language.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Of course.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

For stock.

[Caleb Huron]

Stock. And also like, I think when men say that, it's never. When you say you want a high value man, it feels different than a high value woman.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I've never said a high value man in my life.

[Caleb Huron]

We wouldn't say that. But if A woman were to say that, I think she means, like, he doesn't hit me. And if a man says that, he's like, she hasn't slept with a lot of people. You know what I mean?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, really?

[Caleb Huron]

I think there's a. I think the difference in it is so gendered.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I think high value man means wealthy.

[Caleb Huron]

Really?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

But then high value woman means, like, Madonna. Like the Madonna archetype. Yeah, yeah. Or Charlotte.

[Caleb Huron]

Charlotte the virgin. The virgin horde.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

Dichotomy.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes.

[Caleb Huron]

I've never considered dating a man for money.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. Because you're a man.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. But I do date men.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

But the highest earning couples, like, statistically, are men to gay men.

[Caleb Huron]

Of course. Together, obviously, makes so much sense. Well, and there's the. There's the. You know, a lot of gay guys have that. That thing that people who, like, they have that ambition that you only get from being bullied when you're, like, 13. A lot of gay guys have that. So you get two of them together and just who knows what.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

They go off.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, they go off.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

They get active.

[Caleb Huron]

They get active in a real way in the Delta Lounge.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Okay. Yeah, Yeah, I.

[Caleb Huron]

Do you want a rich man?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Not inherently. I want a cerebral man. I don't care if he's ugly. I don't care if he's short. I don't care if he's rich or poor. I just want someone who I will learn with every day of my life and hopefully laugh with every day of my life. My life.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

But not like a comedian. Like, I just want someone who's well rounded and thoughtful.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

So hard.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. Genius. I want a genius.

[Caleb Huron]

You want a genius?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. It's like, okay, let me go to Apple. Like, what do you. You know, how do you find that?

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, I'm, like, trying to think. I want to find this guy for you. Where do you find him? I guess maybe. Well, you know what? I actually. Last night, I went to First Saturdays at the Brooklyn Museum, which I always try to go to. Everyone there is so hot and cool.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, really?

[Caleb Huron]

Oh, my. Have you been?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No.

[Caleb Huron]

Oh, my God. Everyone there is so hot and cool. It's insane. Everyone you pass, you're like. Like, how are you this gorgeous?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, really cool.

[Caleb Huron]

Yes.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And you're. You're. I'm like, not looking, though.

[Caleb Huron]

I know. I wasn't there looking.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I'm.

[Caleb Huron]

I'm.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, you're happily betrothed.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, I'm good on that. But I wasn't there looking. But if I was. Oh, my God.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

Geez. It's really cool. And there's. People are dancing and they put on their best outfits and it's like, what is this? First Saturdays, the Brooklyn Museum. Shout out to Brooklyn Museum. I am a member. They.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

You should be getting a free membership after this.

[Caleb Huron]

I should. Will you guys please. My membership is up in like, January. Brooklyn Museum, please renew for free, because I'm doing this.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Did you see the Dave Boe exhibit?

[Caleb Huron]

No. No. There's a really a good one on doors right now, though, which I know sounds insane, but it's like a video of a montage of a bunch of doors open.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, cool.

[Caleb Huron]

Films. It's really cool. But first Saturdays, the Brooklyn Museum, they have a DJ in the rotunda and it's like a big dance floor.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

During the day?

[Caleb Huron]

No, night. Oh, like, got. It starts at like 5:30 or 6.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And it gets sexy.

[Caleb Huron]

Oh, it gets sexy. And it's intergenerational too. There's like, last night I watched like this very old woman, like, salsa dancing with a bunch of young men, like, just being silly. It was really cute. And then they have like, vendors in there as well. Food and drink and like cute, like local made jewelry and candles and stuff.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Wow.

[Caleb Huron]

And then the exhibits are open.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, wow.

[Caleb Huron]

And on the first floor, they have live music, like usually a band or a choir or something.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Are you gonna go in September? I want to go with you.

[Caleb Huron]

Let's go. I would love to.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I would love you. That sounds fun.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. I should be in town. We really should.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Okay, cool. I like to go to museums for the cultural experience.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, yeah, let's go. Also, we'll find you. We'll find you a partner.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No, I don't. I'm not looking for one.

[Caleb Huron]

Okay, one more. If it happens, it happens.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes, exactly.

[Caleb Huron]

I can't help but it's like.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It's like a parent trap where you're like, if they happen to get back together.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. It's a side effect of the evening. Maybe not the main point. Yeah, yeah. Well, and then we have to go get. I go. I always get dinner at a place nearby.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, which. Where do you go?

[Caleb Huron]

I can't tell the cameras because it's my secret for us.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Okay, got it.

[Caleb Huron]

But when the cameras aren't rolling, I'll tell you where we're going to dinner.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Okay, perfect. Perfect.

[Caleb Huron]

I love it and you're gonna love it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I'm moving to Brooklyn.

[Caleb Huron]

Are you?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, I am.

[Caleb Huron]

Oh, my God.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I know. And stop the presses. This is.

[Caleb Huron]

This is huge for the culture.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Alert. Scoop alert.

[Caleb Huron]

Oh, my God. What has Inspired.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I used to live in Brooklyn. I used to live in Bushwick.

[Caleb Huron]

Yes.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And then I moved to Manhattan and now I'm moving back to Brooklyn.

[Caleb Huron]

Are you buying?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No.

[Caleb Huron]

Okay.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No. I'm a renter in New York.

[Caleb Huron]

We had talked about it for a second and maybe you'd buy. And we. And we were looking and I was like, these places all seem like I don't want you to buy them. That's what I'm not at the current interest rate.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

You know, let's not even give. That's what I'm saying.

[Caleb Huron]

Let's not even get into that.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

I can't wait to have you out there.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And it'll be so fun. I'm excited to hang out with young people again.

[Caleb Huron]

We're gonna have a blast.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Ye.

[Caleb Huron]

The young people are in Brooklyn.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I know. Well, whenever I come here, it's like. It's like a homecoming.

[Caleb Huron]

I know.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes.

[Caleb Huron]

You're back. The queen is returning.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Exactly. Versus in New York City. That's like, move, you know?

[Caleb Huron]

Truly.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

How did you. Okay, so you. You come to New York, you start doing comedy. The show goes well, all that stuff.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It doesn't go well initially or for years at a time.

[Caleb Huron]

Really.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, of course.

[Caleb Huron]

Oh, wow. I didn't realize that.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It's a long and grueling process.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

The creative process.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. Failure in negative dollars.

[Caleb Huron]

Failure in negative dollars.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And then one day it all turns.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I feel like that happened with you with your podcast. You said you had had one before and it was sort of into the ether and gone. And then you started. So true.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And then it took off like wildfire.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And became one of the stickiest pieces of media on the Internet.

[Caleb Huron]

I don't really know. What happened was so true.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I think you came into your own. You got into your bag.

[Caleb Huron]

I think I took some time and I think doing my own thing, like, I did. I took my time. I like, did a bunch of other people's shows. I think I began to understand the format and I really just, like, stopped doing everything else on the Internet.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, exactly.

[Caleb Huron]

I think that was scarcity. I was like, this is what I do.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

And I think that really helped.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Were you. I. What were you. What were you doing before on the Internet?

[Caleb Huron]

Nothing. For a while. I mean, I had started. I really kind of blew up doing like the front facing character videos.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh.

[Caleb Huron]

On Twitter. Throwback.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Like, what was the character that was the most breakout?

[Caleb Huron]

Oh, I did the. For sure. The one. The one that really, like, I went from having like 3,000 followers on Twitter to having, like 120,000 overnight. And it was this character I did that was it. Well, not even a character. It was like a scenario. I was like, I was on a break from my day job and I was, like, standing on the street and I was frustrated with my own behavior in an interaction.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

And I was like, pov, you're talking to a friend who's clearly in the wrong.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

And I was like, being like, no, you're totally right. You're totally right. And it was like, me just being fake. Yeah. And, yeah, I was actually the person on the other end of that call in real life, where I was like, only calling people that I knew would affirm me, even though I knew, of course. And I was frustrated with myself because I was like, why are you looking for affirmation when you know you're wrong? But it went, like, really viral, and people wrote, like, a bunch of articles about it, and it got. Oh, retweeted and, quote, tweeted by all these, like, huge accounts. Chris. Chrissy Tegan, quote, tweeted it into the stratosphere. And then, yeah, after that, it was like, a lot of that for a couple years. And then kind of every time I would do a character that people liked, they would want me to be just that guy.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

They do the Southern pastor character or only do the whatever. And I would be like, I hate this. I don't want to just be that guy. So I stopped, and then I didn't do really anything on the Internet for a couple of years. This actually ties into something I was going to ask you a second ago, which is you start doing comedy. You moved to Brooklyn. The show. The show happened.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No, I lived in Brooklyn before I started doing comedy.

[Caleb Huron]

Oh, really?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. Yeah, I moved to Brooklyn, like, 2015.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. And you didn't start for a while?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

Wow.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Because I was afraid.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I was petrified first.

[Caleb Huron]

I was afraid. It took me a second, but I got there. But I wanted to ask how you started getting so into fashion, because I feel like you're such a fashion girly.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I've always loved fashion. I never had, like, the money for it, but I've. Even as a kid, I remember watching, like, Lizzie McGuire and being like, she's killing him, you know, so she's throwing the walls. No, she had, like, the fuzzy little, like, bees in her head or like the little, like, tie dyed crop tops.

[Caleb Huron]

No, she was giving the chunky scenes.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, she was cool. And this. I. You know, we grew up in the era of, like, the Fresh Prince of Ballet or with, like, Hilary Banks.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And then, like, Clueless. She was fierce. I feel like I'm doing Hilary Banks drag right now.

[Caleb Huron]

Down.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, yeah. And so I just remembered these girls looking so fresh and wanting that and not being able to afford that, but trying my best with, like, you know, going to the thrift store and getting the cool little button up, whatever. And then as I've gotten older, I've been lucky enough to get to work in the fashion space, and that's been really fun.

[Caleb Huron]

That's so cool.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. I just love clothes.

[Caleb Huron]

What's the most, like, surreal fashion thing? I would like to know fashion and otherwise, but what's the most, like, surreal fashion moment you've had?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, I did Victoria's Secret campaign, which I think is so funny. Yeah, yeah. That there's a photo of me in my underwear. Like, that's just so funny to me. And I'll just bring that up in conversations where it's like, sure, you know, whatever. Three things are true.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

Did you do it? Was it, like, for the magazine or. What was the Victoria's Secret.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It was for a billboard.

[Caleb Huron]

They have a magazine. Am I crazy?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

They did, like, a catalog back in the day with, like, with Tyra Banks.

[Caleb Huron]

And I'm like, I'm truly thinking of, like, 2005.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, those were the. Those were.

[Caleb Huron]

The days were Billboard.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, it was. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't come up ever.

[Caleb Huron]

That's crazy.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It happened, and it's just funny.

[Caleb Huron]

That's really cool.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

So, okay, so one of those. And then. Yeah. In general, like, outside of fashion, what have been your, like. What have been your, like, holy shit moments? You've had a lot of cool.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I don't. Can I be honest?

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I don't think of my life in those terms. Terms.

[Caleb Huron]

What do you mean?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

You know, some people will be like, oh, this was the. One of the best years of my life. I think every year is the best year of my life.

[Caleb Huron]

Absolutely.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Like, I look forward, so I'm not thinking. I just. I don't even feel like I've made it, if I'm being honest. Like, I feel like I'm still breaking out.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And I know that. I understand to some people, that seems very foreign and strange, but I just feel like I'm always growing.

[Caleb Huron]

No, I'm with you. I actually agree with you and feel the same way. I think that every year is going to be better than the last. And it has been so far, and I don't feel that I've made it at all.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

But I still have holy moments where I'm like, oh, my God, that's so crazy. Do you not. Do you not have those where you're like, oh, I met this person or I got to do this thing, or I. Things where you just like, kind of in the moment are like, wow, it's.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Crazy that this is 100 of those.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Like every week.

[Caleb Huron]

But. So you're in so much gratitude that it's hard to pin down. Is that what you think is going on?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, I would say so.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. I'm like, I'm racking my brain, my brain for the heroes I've met. And each time I've been like, wow, that's wild.

[Caleb Huron]

And then you're like, back to work.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah, exactly. I know, but that's probably like, that's probably anti labor, some bullshit, you know, like, that's me not appreciating that. Like, I don't know. But I just am. It's hard for me to live there.

[Caleb Huron]

Do you think that way?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I like to live forward.

[Caleb Huron]

That's really interesting.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

One time a pop star told me they loved my work. That was major.

[Caleb Huron]

That's really cool.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

And you don't want to say who. Nice.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I'll tell you later.

[Caleb Huron]

I know you will. Yeah, that's. People get really. My, My. The. My favorite thing about podcasting is how mad people get when you say you're gonna say something off camera. I'm like, yeah, we can't be said. But I get to know. That's the privilege of podcasting is that I get to know later.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Exactly. We just don't want to give the little clickies and clippies, you know?

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. That's the thing. And also, you don't sometimes. Also, as a comedian, sometimes I feel protective over. I say a lot of off the wall and I know where it comes from and I can defend myself, but I sometimes do feel protective of public figures that say nice things to me or whatever that I don't want to. I don't want to align them with me.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

That I'm like, I don't want to get you in trouble. That this week, the viral clip is me saying like, oh, this very famous person is very nice to me and texts me that they love my work.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

And then the next week I'm in hot water for saying something about whatever.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Do you get hot in hot water?

[Caleb Huron]

People are always annoyed with me on the Internet, but not in any way that's been very consequential. Interesting because it's Mostly, like, a loud, small group of people that are just, like, really annoying and sensitive.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Okay, I have two comments. To go back to the private moments, I think, like, obviously, we live in a space where the public is private and the private is also public, or the public is public and the private is also public because of the ways in which we share everything. We see a beautiful couple on the train, and we're like, look at this. And it goes viral. So I appreciate private moments, and I want to, I don't know, be protective of that as well. So I agree with you there. And it's less about getting them in trouble and more just about, why can't we just have a moment? You know, like, when you hang out with your friends and you're not taking photos and you're like, that was a great day. You don't have any photos. Like, I kind of appreciate that about life.

[Caleb Huron]

Absolutely.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Like, yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

And I also think. I don't. Like, there are a lot of very awesome, cool things that have happened to me or that are in the works or whatever that I just, like, I don't share about, because I'm just like, well, I don't. I've just. I've always said that I think when people are killing it, they don't need to convince you.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

And I'm like, I feel really good about what I'm doing.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

You're killing it.

[Caleb Huron]

I'm killing it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

You don't have to convince me.

[Caleb Huron]

I don't need to do. But it's like, yeah, I just don't need to share every single cool thing that happens to me because I'm just like, that's fine. It's cool that just. I know that. Or just my inner circle knows that it's cool that, like, only Chance knows certain things about my life or that only you and I talk about things at lunch, you know?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes.

[Caleb Huron]

I think there's. It's nice to keep some things to yourself in life in general.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Of course. Of course. So I agree with you. I'm. I'm. But maybe it's because we were born before the Internet became so pervasive with smartphones.

[Caleb Huron]

You think?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I think that our generation is really, really special for that.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah. Is that we got to be really proficient at the Internet, and I had a Windows 95 Packard Bell when I was, like, 5 years old with the family computer. And I got to learn as it grew, but also had the privilege of understanding a world before where you had to have. You have to print out the maps to get around where you had to call and memorize people's house phones. And I think that, that I guess we'll call it analog. I think it's great to have that transition. It keeps me grounded in our reality.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, I think so, too. What's so true to you, Zwe?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Okay, what's so true? I've been thinking about it a lot, and this is based on the Internet, so I think my. So true. How do. How am I supposed to say it? Is it, like, so true, honey?

[Caleb Huron]

No, it's actually called I think so, honey. We're ripping off lost culture. He says, I think so, honey.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I think so, honey.

[Caleb Huron]

However you want, babe.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

So I. But it's so true is that if you yourself have found yourself in the 10th year of scrolling on a reality star's Facebook page to find out that a young Dominican woman with green eyes maybe posted something problematic, you've gone too far.

[Caleb Huron]

Lost the plot.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

You've lost the plot.

[Caleb Huron]

Lost the plot.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Get onto the Internet, get onto Reddit, and find out where the tapes are and release them. There are better things for you to do with your time than to be stalking young adults from Love Island. Yes, that is my biggest passion in the world. I do not understand the morality that we've placed. Obviously, these people are not perfect, nor do I want them to be, but they're not running for office. So we've placed this morality onto the winners of $50,000 after taxes for being able to hump the best. And we haven't thought, we haven't thought about our elected officials who need to also be sort of, like, policed.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, Yeah, I just think also, like, I, I, it's not my place in a lot of those cases, but I'm like, I just, I don't really care what people said when they were 17 or 19 if they're demonstrably different people now. And I don't know the Love island situation, if it's like that. But I'm saying a lot of these things, like, people will drag up something from so long ago that I'm like, if they're demonstrably different people, I think we can have grace and just be like, hey, that was weird. Let's. Let's keep that in mind and, like, you be normal now. But the Love island thing, I don't know anything about it. What happened with this girl?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No, what? Well, I'm talking about a new the winner who everyone loves and who was, like, a delight and very funny, but she posted something when she was 14 on Facebook and She got in trouble.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And my thoughts behind that are, wow, I wish you guys would investigate some of the worst people in our country.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, why don't you investigate hacking the student loan system?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

You know what I'm saying? Eliminate debt. Really? Because it's like if you guys, you guys are so smart, you're so thoughtful, you have clearly great politics. Why don't you invest that in systems that we can change versus like, like, yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

The one thing I can speak on is they try to do this a lot with. With when people have said like the f slur or like homophobic slurs when they were younger. And I'm like, okay, that's the one area I can say definitively. Shut the up. I just really care. Yeah, I just don't care. I'm like, unless they are actively being homophobic or transphobic right now in their adult life, I just don't give a if they have demonstrably changed and are different people and hang out with queer people, etc. I'm like, yeah, I just don't think that's ever going to be helpful to us. To. I think it's actually okay, my. So true. I think it's antithetical. I think you're actually worse for the cause than they are. You are making us seem like woke scolds who are unreasonable freaks. And you are doing. You are doing more damage to the cause than they did when they were 13 posting a slur.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Not to mention we don't accept apologies. It's all about accountability. But what is the accountability here and.

[Caleb Huron]

Why are they counting? Why are they accountable to you, random Twitter user? Who are you? Are you? Why are they not accountable to the people in their life, in their actual community? Why do they need to be accountable to you, a stranger? I don't get that. Oh, there is that. The idea of being accountable to people who don't know you does not make sense to me. Yeah, you need to be accountable to the people who are in your life and they can let us know if that's happened or not. But I just think the idea that some random jaded fucking X user in Florida is who I need to be accountable to as a human being is nuts.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It's just. It's not practical. But I'm on the other side where I'm saying reality stars should be problematic because they're getting boring now and I want to hear a real housewife say the N word like Ramona said. Thinker. Just kidding. Just kidding. Just kidding.

[Caleb Huron]

Guys, don't do it. There's Some. There's some reality stars watching and getting ideas. Don't do it. They're heading to the keyboard now. Yeah, no, that's. Yeah, I. I do miss. I've said this often about figures like Wendy Williams or Lena Dunham that I'm like, have missed the mark for me many times have not enjoyed certain things they've done or said. But I miss bravery.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I miss.

[Caleb Huron]

And I miss fuckups.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I do too.

[Caleb Huron]

I miss fuckups. I miss. I miss a figure like Lena Dunham having one of the biggest shows on TV saying something objectively insane and out of pocket and then a week later being like, sorry, y', all, I was just speaking freely. That was bad. And I apologize. I miss speaking freely. I miss when people would just say and see if it resonated. I don't like this like media trained, boring, sanitized.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Like devoid of personality, devoid of culture to serve to you in an algorithm.

[Caleb Huron]

I'm bored, bored.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I'm bored.

[Caleb Huron]

I'm bored of it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

Zwa's board.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

But I'm not bored with you.

[Caleb Huron]

No, I'm not bored with you either. I have a segment for you.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, wait. There's segments on this show?

[Caleb Huron]

Yes.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Wow.

[Caleb Huron]

And this is sometimes one of the most loved and sometimes one of the most hated segments on the show. We'll see how you feel about it. The purpose of this is speed. I'm going to speed. I'm going to read you 15 statements as quickly as I can.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Got it?

[Caleb Huron]

You're going to tell me if you think it's true or false.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Got it.

[Caleb Huron]

And Z way, if you get 10 or more correct, I'm going to give you 50 US dollars.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Okay. Wow. You should give me that regardless.

[Caleb Huron]

Right. We're actually. We'll talk off Mike. Okay. You ready?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes.

[Caleb Huron]

The largest ocean in the world is the Atlantic Ocean.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No.

[Caleb Huron]

False. It's the Pacific. The human eye can observe 10 million different colors.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Sure.

[Caleb Huron]

True. True. The first movie produced by Pixar was Toy Story. No, it's true.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, whoops.

[Caleb Huron]

Dogs sweat through glands in their paws.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I thought they sweat through their tongue. False.

[Caleb Huron]

True. Phillips Academy's newspaper is called the Philosopher.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No. False.

[Caleb Huron]

False.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It's Philippian.

[Caleb Huron]

Nice. The Caesar salad was invented in Italy.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

It wasn't invented in Italy.

[Caleb Huron]

It was invented in, I don't know, Mexico. Greenland is the world's largest island.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Greenland is the world's largest. World's largest island. I don't even know what that means. I didn't know countries could be islands. Australia is also an island. Sure. Is it no, it's not. Is it an island? I don't know. False.

[Caleb Huron]

True. Damn succession ran for five seasons.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I think four.

[Caleb Huron]

False. It was four. The moving sidewalk was invented in 1893. Who knows?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Who cares? True.

[Caleb Huron]

It's true. The New York City Marathon is the largest marathon in the world.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

World probably. True.

[Caleb Huron]

True. Robin theed graduated from DePaul University Thed and Northwestern. False. It was Northwestern. Applesauce was the first meal eaten in space.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I believe that. True.

[Caleb Huron]

False. Beef and liver paste. It takes two weeks for a sloth to digest a single meal.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Two weeks. That's true.

[Caleb Huron]

That's true. Two more. The Boston Red Sox have the second most World Series titles I after the Yankees.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

That's got to be false. Go Pats.

[Caleb Huron]

False. They're tied for third most.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Ah.

[Caleb Huron]

The liver is the largest internal organ in the human body.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

No, the internal organ liver. Is that the one that goes like this? No, the liver. No, that's not true.

[Caleb Huron]

It is true.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I thought the intestines were the large organ.

[Caleb Huron]

I don't know what to tell you. Zwei. It's just what it says.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

The liver.

[Caleb Huron]

I just read the paper. Largest intestinal organ in the largest internal organ in the human body.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

So larger than the small intestines. Define large. Is it by.

[Caleb Huron]

No surface.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Is it by surface area? Because I don't think that's true.

[Caleb Huron]

So I think what you're. Yes, I hear you. And what you. Because the large intestine, when laid out out, it would like circle around the globe, but it's so micro thin that as far as like actual, like mass that you can like, hold in your hand. Like you could hold. We might have to give this one to Zwe. You could hold the large intestine in your hand and it would take up less space than the large.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

But what does large mean in this context? Is it surface area? Is it weight?

[Caleb Huron]

We might need to give this one to Zway. Chance hates when his questions get no.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

But you actually have to be really specific.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, you're right. We're giving you that one. Chance. How she do 11? Yeah. Let's go.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

How many was allowed to get wrong?

[Caleb Huron]

You did great. You were allowed to get. You needed to get 10 or more. Correct. And you got 11.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Wow. Thank you.

[Caleb Huron]

Out of 50.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

After 15.

[Caleb Huron]

11. 15 is a really good one.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I know, but. Go Pats. I can't believe the Red Sox lost.

[Caleb Huron]

Go Pats.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

For real.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I'm like a Patriots fan. I know that's problematic.

[Caleb Huron]

Why is it problematic?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Because I love this.

[Caleb Huron]

I don't think it's problematic at all. I mean, right now, it kind of sucks.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Well, yeah, but they're. They're. They're in a transition. Okay.

[Caleb Huron]

They're. Yeah, they're in a building, period.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Justice for Bill. Bella, check.

[Caleb Huron]

Justice for Bill Belichick.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Free. Free the homie.

[Caleb Huron]

Free the homie Bill Belichick. You should make Merch free the homie Bill Belichick. Merch would go crazy, and you know it. That'd be insane. Zway Merch. Actually, you should get him on your show.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

You. You don't think I want to have you tried?

[Caleb Huron]

Bill Belichick? I am calling on you now. Go on, Z. Wish that would be so huge for him. He needs it right now.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I think that he and I would get along because I've loved the Patriots since they won the Snow bowl against the Raiders.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes.

[Caleb Huron]

You need this, actually. You both need this. He needs to be on the. Need to have him on the show.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Thank you.

[Caleb Huron]

I need him to come on Z.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Way bad. I love. I love. Go Pats.

[Caleb Huron]

Seriously, Go Pats.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I know, but I feel like we are both. We have the. The. You know, what's the way to say it? Like, the axes of evil in terms of our sports love.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Because you like the Chiefs.

[Caleb Huron]

Huge Chiefs fan.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. And people hate that about me now. It used to be cute and charming when we were bad.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

Now people are like, they don't like that I talk about it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

They don't like a winner.

[Caleb Huron]

They don't like a. People don't like a winner.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I know.

[Caleb Huron]

Can we discuss. I mean, society hates a winner.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Two divas.

[Caleb Huron]

Two divas.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Lots of ops.

[Caleb Huron]

Breaking down the ops. They hate to see a winner. It's so real.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I know it's hard, but guess what? Winners win.

[Caleb Huron]

Winners win. And that's what we're gonna continue to do. Is there anything you wanted to say that you didn't get to today?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Watch my interview. Hello. Am I talking here or am I talking here? Watch my interview. Well. Cause it's like, also, the wide is cute. Cause then he could be, like, doing a little dance. Watch my interview with Jigs Monsoon soon. Watch my interview with Caleb Heron. And feel free to watch my other interviews. They're coming out monthly until I do more. But who knows when?

[Caleb Huron]

I gave you lots of different options. I saw, I moved. I did peace signs. I did hearts. I just wanted you to have the space to play with it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Thank you. I'm sad that I didn't play with both cameras. Can we retake that of course. Okay, watch.

[Caleb Huron]

And we'll be both in. And we'll leave both in just for the audience. They like this kind of stuff.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes, yes. Okay, great.

[Caleb Huron]

When we do multiple takes and leave it in.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Really? Do they like when you talk about sex, too?

[Caleb Huron]

They like when you talk about sex.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I hate talking about sex. Sex.

[Caleb Huron]

They like when I talk about sex. They. They. They like my ads because my ads are chaos.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, what? Who's your sponsor?

[Caleb Huron]

We have all kinds of sponsors. Actually met a sponsor on the street the other day. I was walking down the street in Brooklyn, and this girl in, like, sweatpants and no, sorry, love.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Whoa, whoa.

[Caleb Huron]

She was on. She was out on a walk and clearly not wanting to run into people. Walk. No offense, love. And she. She goes, caleb, I sponsor your show.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

That's so cute.

[Caleb Huron]

And I went, what? And she goes, yeah. She told me the brand she works for. I don't want to out her, but she told me the brand that she works for. It's a big brand that does a lot of podcast ones. And she was telling me. She's like, yeah, I actually am a huge fan of your show, and I'm so glad that we get to, like, sponsor you guys.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I love that.

[Caleb Huron]

And I was like, thank you for your service. Chance thanks you more than anyone.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Amen. Yeah. And by the way, I'm courting sponsors as well.

[Caleb Huron]

Sponsor. Oh, do you do sponsors right now on the show? Oh, my gosh. People are leaving money on the table.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I know. Well, I. I like having control, being perfect.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. Oh, I can't.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

But now I like my money.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. It's important to like money sometimes. It's actually politically, it's revolutionary to be a capitalist. I've decided. I just made it. I just made an opinion.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes, yes, yes. Das Capital. That's what that's about.

[Caleb Huron]

That's exactly what that's about. I've actually said for a long time that I remember the day I decided that millionaires aren't the problem.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, really?

[Caleb Huron]

That was a political change.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

And where were you in the tax bracket when you clean up?

[Caleb Huron]

I woke up one day and I said, no, it's just billionaires. They can only be billionaires.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Let me get. Get this money.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. That is so funny. No, I do. I. The sponsors, God, we love them. We appreciate them. But I read the ads. I read the ads in a silly way. Z way. And that's just who I am.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, you do? You go like, oh, you got to buy Casper Mattress.

[Caleb Huron]

That's exactly what I do. Yeah. Yeah. You actually Now I can't do that anymore because you nailed it so hard. No, I'll just, like, mess up and keep it in. I'll just be silly about them. Some people like it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Okay.

[Caleb Huron]

Some people like the way I do ads. So if you start doing ads, maybe we could have a summit about it.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, yes. An ad summit.

[Caleb Huron]

Ad summit for Added Calvin Zway Ad summit.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, my. I would honestly. That's our Los Culturistas ad week.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, I think so. Brand? Yeah, Brand. I think so. We're gonna. I'm gonna start ripping off.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Wait. That's so funny.

[Caleb Huron]

Have you been on Lost Coach?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I have. Of course. I did it, like, in 2020. I haven't been back since.

[Caleb Huron]

They've never had me on.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Oh, they haven't?

[Caleb Huron]

No. I think there's a deep fear that we would slay too hard.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I think so. I think it would be the Internet would. The Internet would break.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah. I do love both of them, though, and I love their categories that they do for the culture Awards.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I know. They're so chic.

[Caleb Huron]

They're so funny. Funny, those two.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

They're really funny.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I met. I met them years and years ago because I interned at this Comedy Central, like, rotational program with this woman named Sudi Green who went to college with them. And so I met them when I was an intern in, like, 2013. Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

Whoa. Long time ago.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I know.

[Caleb Huron]

Holy cow.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yeah.

[Caleb Huron]

I love Sudie. She's so funny.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

She's so funny. She can write.

[Caleb Huron]

She can write. And you know what? That's a dying art form.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Yes.

[Caleb Huron]

Being able to actually write. Oh, wow. Zwe. Where can people find you?

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Zway on. On Z way.

[Caleb Huron]

Zway on Z way.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

At z way. On YouTube. I'm not on Twitter. On YouTube. Instagram, TikTok. Substack, subsect.

[Caleb Huron]

You're really going in on.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

I. I'm bullish on substack right now. I think it's important to have a following that is independent of an algorithm.

[Caleb Huron]

Yeah, I think that's really smart. Zway. Thanks so much for being on. We just love you, Caleb. We did it Z way. That was a Headgum podcast.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

One, two, three.

[Caleb Huron]

Hello. I'm Joe Marcos Haresi. And I'm Russell Daniels. And we're the co hosts of the Downside now on Headgum. We are a safe place to complain.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Be negative.

[Caleb Huron]

Kvetch. We don't like toxic positivity. No. Because it's toxic. We're not gonna sit there going, hey, look on the bright side.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Enough.

[Caleb Huron]

On the bright side, that's all anyone's talking about these days. The fuckin bright side. So tune into some of your favorite comedian some celebrities like Caleb Huron, Brennan Lee Mulligan, Alana Glaser, Busy Phillips, and Dan Soder. We let them come on and we let them share what's shitty about their life. We look at the things that seem nice on the surface and we go why is it shitty underneath? It's a fun time, but it's a place you're gonna listen and go, oh thank God I'm not any of those three people on that show right now. Yeah, I feel better about my life. So Please subscribe to us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Pocket Casts or watch us on YouTube new episodes every Tuesday. This is the downside.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Hey, I'm Gareth Reynolds and I have a new podcast on Headgum called Next. We have now this show is for people with short attention spans, which is everyone. I mean, you're probably trying to skip this ad right now, but don't because you now legally have to listen to the show.

[Caleb Huron]

That's how law works.

[Ziwe Fumudoh]

Next we have is very simple. Each episode has three short segments. For instance, Lisa Gilroy and I wrote Write Insane Revenge Yelp reviews for callers who had bad experiences with a business. The Doughboys play a game called Meal or no Meal and Steph, Tola and I go head to head on a thought provoking game called Guess that Sound. The show is as dumb as it sounds and we probably have more fun than we should, but it's a great time and you should listen or watch new episodes of Next we have every Thursday on YouTube or your favorite podcast app.