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Social 333 Podcast
From Retail Shopping Malls to First-to-Market Brands | Ward Kampf #social333podcast #74
00:21:42
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A
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B
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A
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B
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A
Hey, welcome to the Social 333 podcast. I'm your host, Chris Bentley. Today my guest is Cam. I'm sorry, Ward Campf. I got it backwards. Even had her first time. Ward, thanks for being on the show.
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B
Thank you for having me.
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A
Chris, tell the audience a little bit about yourself and what you got going on.
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B
Yeah, I'm Ward Campf. I'm president of Northwood Retail. We have centers from, you know, the west coast, from San Mateo down to San Diego through Denver, Dallas, Austin. We're in the Carolinas, Nashville, you know, with street retail in soho. And I'm president of Northwood Retail and oversee kind of how it all works. So, you know, excited to be here. Thank you.
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A
What got you into getting into, like, shopping centers and stuff like that?
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B
Um, I got into it, you know, at a young age, right. Kind of right out of school. Some friends of mine work for a mall developer and I, you know, it's kind of my background and so they worked there and, you know, I had an interest in being in real estate, but it was more toward the retail side. And, you know, it was late 80s and went down to, you know, Houston was the first place I went, and that was a tough market in that time.
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A
Wow.
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B
And, you know, if you can cut your teeth there, you can cut it anywhere.
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A
So was it so tough?
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B
Well, you just think about Houston, late 80s. It was in Texas. Just, it was a challenge. So you cut your teeth. That's how you kind of really make your mark. Is cutting your teeth in tough markets.
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A
One of the things that was really interesting that you bought 91st to market brands to your portfolio. So companies like Dry Bar, Kendra Scott, like, how did you. And then we were kind of talking off air about it, like, how do you kind of spot that stuff?
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B
Yeah. So, you know, Kendra Scott had two stores open. We have a young, talented leasing agent that was really, you know, after Kendra. And you know, we met her in Phoenix and subsequently done other deals with her. But it's, you know, we like to be first to market. We think it differentiates your center. People will come, you know, Ali Webb with Dry Bar had, I think two or three stores at the time. She was a stylist out of her van and, you know, grew it, sold it. She still has products in Ulta, you know, has other concepts now. And so I just think, you know, people want newness. These aren't going to be everywhere. And you know, the, the world, you know, there's always. People are creating concepts constantly. And so that's the exciting part of retail right now.
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A
I saw that you had some, some mistakes here and there. And Lord knows I made tons of mistakes, especially in business. But talk to me about some of these mistakes because I can. I saw real estate, I do commercial real estate as well. And like, I can only imagine, you know, you're getting into a shopping center. Let's say you land Kendra Scott and nobody shows up. Right. Or you get her in the wrong. Wrong spot. Right. I mean, just that's retail.
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B
Right? Right.
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A
Talk to me about some of these mistakes that you made that maybe looking back, if you had just not made that mistake or like not done it or maybe did something different, it would have changed you quicker or made you better.
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B
You know, I think we always say try to, you know, your growth is going to come from mistakes, but we always try to think about not making it fatal or, you know, we don't, we don't put tenants in our shopping centers, you know, to have accidents. That's, you know, if, if it happens, usually it's on them. You know, there's, there's a reason why they wouldn't perform well. Um, but for the majority of the time, you know, I've had a lot of success, but I do think there's going to be, you know, poorly run businesses. I think what we try to look for when we're, you know, sourcing these, or you're talking about the Ali Webs or the Kendra Scotts, you know, leadership, innovation, pioneering, you know, they have it and you, you know, you've done it enough it's almost, you know, like the outlier where you put the 10,000. You can spot it real quickly. And do they run a good management team? Are they innovative? Do they have a good business? Good business model. And usually what you find out when things fail is the business model wasn't as big as you thought it was.
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A
You've worked at some really big places. Like, you had leadership roles in Gap, Thomas Enterprises, a couple other property management companies, real estate companies. What are those positions kind of taught you?
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B
Yeah, I think one of the interesting ones, obviously, was being inside the Gap, working with Don Fisher, who founded the Gap, and I had a consultant from Bain, and we were trying to figure it's the late 90s. We knew the mall world was changing. We knew Amazon was kind of out there. Everybody took it for granted, you know, said Amazon will fail. And 99, early 2000, they did kind of fail. But we also realized, you know, open air and convenience was going to be a big issue. And so we did a lot of study on that. And, you know, Don did two of the first outdoor centers, one in Pennsylvania. And, you know, we just knew convenience. It kept coming back to three themes. Convenience, convenience and convenience. It wasn't even, you know, you got to have great real estate. So that was one lesson. And then I think when I worked for Stan, it was just, you know, how to win, how to pick great real estate, and most importantly, scale and volume. Just like nothing you've ever seen. The scale and the volume, you know, is that's how you really grow a business and make money.
- [07:14]
A
So the whole shopping center thing is, you know, I have some clients and stuff like that. And it's been. It's been interesting the last couple years, to say the least. I know for malls. I mean, some malls are just dead.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And they're offering like, champagne while you walk around. Like, you know, they'll walk your dog while you walk around. Like they do anything they can just to get you to walk around. And then what I found, and I'm sure a lot of other people find the same thing, especially this time of year, is that you'll go to a mall and you'll try on jeans or whatever it is, and at least this is for me, I'll go try on some jeans, and I'll be like, okay, well, these jeans are 30 bucks. And then I'll nicely like. I'll be like, this is the one I want. Take a picture of it on my phone, fold it back together and put it in on the stack. And then I'LL go home and order the same thing and get like 15% off. Is it. Have you seen outside of like the Kendra Scott. Because I have one by me and some dry and the dry bar. But from outside of that, like, how are you seeing a lot of companies just not doing as well as they anticipated?
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B
Well, I think the companies that aren't doing well have been around for a while. And you know, there's always cycles in retail. I mean, you think about department stores, Montgomery Ward, Sears pennies, like there's always this flux, right. And in specialty retail, which is really our nook in. In food as well, you know, if you're not capitalized well, that's a problem. If you don't have technology and you, you know, weren't part of this, what we call direct to consumer DTC tenants that's really making a wavelength. You've got to be able to use the technology. So you're in the physical store, they're going to make a sale to you because you did take a picture, maybe you took 15% off and there's some shipping costs. They'd prefer you to buy it in the store. That's just a point of sale. But you did buy it and you still may get the wrong size and have to go back and know if you go back, you'll spend more. So I think there's, you know, where I think technology is going to play a big role and has played a big role in the success of retail. And if you don't have technology as part of, you know, the retailer's business model, even the luxury guys, you know, Chanel's talking about going directly direct to consumer, which has always been kind of taboo and luxury. The luxury guys are getting into that business. They want to talk to you, not, you know, interface in a department store with, you know, somebody in between it. They want their brand to be represented.
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A
So I've seen a lot where they'll have a celebrity and a celebrity will come in like a. Who did we have last time? I think it was JLo, Jennifer Lopez. She came in and she was promoting some new shoe or something like that. And they had the whole store closed with just a VIP event. They only sent the invites out for the VIPs. Champagne, food, whatever, band DJ. Not band DJ. And I think they made good money off of it, but they had to spend a lot to get people to actually come in the store, which I thought was a really interesting concept because. And it was luxury, obviously. I thought it was a really interesting concept that there's so many people that are on like this VIP list that want to be in that situation, you know, I mean, that spend that kind of money. They want to be treated like that. They want to have this special event. They want to meet Jennifer Lopez in person, touch her feelers, speak to her. So I thought that was like a really cool idea.
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B
Yeah, I think a lot of people do. They want you in store. You know, they want their best clients, obviously, if they can do, you know, we call it, you know, client telling special events. We just did one down in Austin at Domain Northside. We have a tag store which is, you know, the watch brand associated with F1. And they did it F1 weekend. I think it was the 18th or 19th of October. Max verse, you know, was the driver that won and you know, kind of F1 God was in the store one of the days. People were going crazy. But that's. I think that just, you know, it was on brand. They're the sponsor LVMHS tags a brand they have doing it around F1 and having him come in like that gets people excited to shop. And I think, you know, if you can, you know, there's a lot of social selling too, Right. You know, we're in this world of influencer selling, social selling, where it's, you know, people want to be seen at events and take pictures. And so that's just the transformation of what's happening in retail. And probably to your point about some of them all suffering, it's a tougher setting to do something like that.
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A
You know, I think the more that the brand expands, the tougher it gets.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So like, if you're a brand that, I don't know, just sells, which is that H and M, that does like just younger people, right? Or Urban Outfitters just as younger people. And then all of a sudden they start bringing in like suits for executives, right. It's like totally like on the other side of the. It's going to kill the business.
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B
Right.
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A
And I think a lot of people kind of like the idea of McDonald's where they're like, okay, well we're going to sell you this, you know, high calorie burger, but at the same time we'll feed you the salad. And it's just. It doesn't make any sense. And that's kind of what I've seen with a lot of retailers where they go, okay, well, you know, we're not getting enough traffic here to get our product sold. Instead of like trying to figure out a better way of marketing what we're going to do is bring in different products that doesn't fit our niche and then totally blow the whole thing up. Have you seen a lot of that as well?
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B
Well, I think people, you know, they try to get creative, you know, and add things. You know, the McDonald's thing with the salad, you know, they're bringing the Happy Meal back. They've tried a lot of different things. Right. You know, to get, you know, you think about the longevity or the shelf life of a concept. I mean, you know, you had Wendy's down their back for years, right. You know, going right across the street, you have Shake Shack. I mean, you got a lot of burger place, independent burgers. So, you know, I think the people that, you know, they were a pioneer and really got the burger thing going and then the Happy Meals, I think they're innovative and you've got to stay that way. I think all these guys go and you know, again, they make mistakes, they learn from them. You just don't want it to be fatal. And so, you know, you've seen that happen in the alcohol business where people do crazy campaigns and it hurts the brand and it hurts the distributor, it hurts the bars. I think we're learning that people are trying to do things right, wrong or indifferent to have that wow factor and pull people toward the brand. So makes it interesting.
- [14:52]
A
You're in a lot of different markets. You're in Texas, California, Colorado, Tennessee, Carolinas. How. And he told me you fly like 300 times, 300 days out of the month or out of the year, which is wild. Like what, how did you get familiar with each one of those markets? Because it's tough.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Because Carolina is nothing like Texas.
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B
Right.
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A
Like, how did you end up, did you spend a lot of time out there? Did you get to kind of get.
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B
Yeah, we have assets over there. Yeah, you gotta, you gotta spend the time there. You gotta understand, you know, who you're, you know, and we don't think everything's a commodity. We don't. Every center, we don't put the same tenants in. We have different assets. You know, large mixed use assets like fifth and Broadway and Nashville. But you know, going back to the Carolinas, you know, we're in South Carolina, down in Kiowa, which is very high end. And then in Charlotte, North Carolina, you know, we have a really nice asset called the bowl that we just opened. We're doing the first Wegmans grocery store in Charlotte. So it's really kind of, you know, meeting, meeting the community and customers demands in these markets and Understanding kind of what the, where the gaps are in shopping and creating something special and unique.
- [16:16]
A
Talk to me about like the future retail. Like do you see it kind of like what I was talking about before with a lot more like influencer stuff, a lot more people bringing people in for VIP events, just kind of anything that they can to get people in the door.
- [16:31]
B
Yeah. What I would say is the biggest thing is, you know, clientele in is going to become a real big part of the future. Meaning, you know, they know who their top hundred clients are. That's, that should just be, you know, or 200 and doing events, in store events kind of exclusive to those, to their top clients. No different than what, you know, banks do. Investment banks do high net worth, they do it for high net worth families. I mean there's, everybody's trying to sort this out and so I think there'll be winners and losers. But I do think that the in store stuff is going to be really important and the future of it's going to be innovation, freshness, newness. That's what's going to drive, you know.
- [17:19]
A
The future of retail and your podcast backstory and beyond. So the second telly Award. Tell me about that. I thought that was pretty cool.
- [17:28]
B
Yeah. You know, much to my surprise, our production company and our writer, editor, producer Emily Andrews who works with us, they submitted it, you know, with really out without my knowledge, kind of knowing that that was something, you know, we were gonna go do. And it's worked out really well and I think, you know, we focus on founder led businesses and I think it's something that, you know, we really pride ourselves on and I think the reason it is award winning is, you know, it's authentic, you know, it's not totally scripted and I think we let people kind of tell the whole story. You know, we had Goriana and his wife Jason and like we were trying to book it and they said, listen, we can't be real, we're not going to do this. Meaning, you know, if he wants to drop an F bomb in context, not just cus, but like, you know.
- [18:31]
A
The.
- [18:31]
B
Shit didn't show up at the trade show. You know, like we were desperate, we had no money. You know, that works and people want to hear that side. We had a young lady, Nina, our very first go and she talked about all the success with the celebrities from Beyonce, you know, to Lizzo, etc, and she just said, you know, but at the same time, you know, my mental health's really important. There's somebody, I said, you know, People want to hear that. And she's young and that, you know, telling that side of it is authentic and real and it's part of life.
- [19:05]
A
Yeah, Yeah. I think that's the best part. That's why I really like our show because just about everybody's I've come or guests that come on has had some sort of problem, had been bankrupt. Right. You know, had problems with their spouse, had problems with their, you know, childhood, had addiction problems. So I think that's all that stuff is really cool. And it just like helps bring a real personal touch to it instead of being like, yeah, I built a company, it makes $50 million a year and I sit at home and eat crackers. Everybody would be like, oh, this is really boring. But when you talk about some of the struggle, then people kind of can relate to, hey, look, that person's struggling. Well, I'm struggling too. Or I struggled. So it's just really cool how that is. And I really commend you for the, for the podcast.
- [19:58]
B
Thank you.
- [20:00]
A
What do you really see? I mean, you got definitely a legacy. I mean, you got a lot of stuff going on. I know you've been at it for a long time. What do you really see, like, the end being, is it going to be more shopping centers? Is it going to be more first timers in your shopping center? Is it going to be more celebrities? What is it?
- [20:22]
B
I think the biggest thing, I really enjoy meeting the founders of these businesses, but there's a whole wave of younger people that work with us now and watching them grow into leadership roles, watching them expand their horizons and go on and do other things, I think that's just, that's kind of the future. I'm not saying for the last 12 years I spent building this thing. Now I'm watching it, watching people have kids. We were just voted one of the top places to work as a parent in the country. And so, you know, that's a, that's a neat side. My kids are grown. I, you know, kind of done that. But yeah, watching them grow and they become the future of Northwood retail. I mean, you know, I'm mentoring that aspect of it. So a lot of my time is spent mentoring, helping solving problems, et cetera, you know, versus just in the weeds. Yeah.
- [21:24]
A
Nice. If you can go back and fix one thing, what would you do in business side, not personal side.
- [21:34]
B
On the business side, you know, my goal was always to be an agent. I always thought that. And I was. The day I took a job in real estate, I did get a call from img. It was Chris Evert's brother John, who ran tennis. And you know, you always kind of look back and wonder or kind of two Forks, Three Forks. That weekend, that call, I got a job and I was going home to get skis to go to Aspen. So I always kind of look at going to Aspen or being an agent, you know, I would I'll never know. So there was kind of two, there was a three decisions I had to make. But most importantly, I had to get a job. My parents were very.
- [22:18]
A
I bet. Ward, if somebody was interested in picking your brain some more, learning more about your podcast, where would they go?
- [22:27]
B
Just Northwood, retail.com backstory and beyond on the gram.
- [22:37]
A
Or appreciate you coming on the show.
- [22:39]
B
Thank you.
- [22:40]
A
Awesome.
- [22:40]
B
Thanks for having me, Chris.
- [22:41]
A
Yeah, no problem. Thank you.