Why Do So Many Salespeople Suck and How Can They Improve? | Benjamin Dennehy #social333podcast #78

Summary

Social 333 Podcast #78: Why Do So Many Salespeople Suck and How Can They Improve?

Guest: Benjamin Dennehy ("UK's Most Hated Sales Trainer")
Host: Chris D. Bentley
Date: December 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

This candid episode of the Social 333 Podcast dives headfirst into the harsh realities of sales with Benjamin Dennehy, known as the "UK’s Most Hated Sales Trainer." Host Chris Bentley and Dennehy explore why so many salespeople underperform, the root causes of mediocrity in the industry, and how individuals can break the mold to become successful sales professionals. The discussion is unfiltered, loaded with memorable moments, and offers both tough love and practical strategies for salespeople at all levels.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Most Hated" Persona: Purpose & Origins

Benjamin Dennehy shares how he intentionally cultivated the “most hated” title as a counterpoint to the emotional neediness rampant among salespeople and trainers.

• [01:12] “I'm the UK’s most hated sales trainer. I travel the world telling salespeople why they're losers, really, and trying to stop them from being losers.”
• Sales trainers typically seek validation—Dennehy deliberately chose the opposite to detach from the need to be liked and focus on results.
• The persona (and signature style, including a red hat reminiscent of Trump’s) served both as branding and as a challenge to the ‘guru’ culture in sales training.

2. Why Most Salespeople “Suck”

• Default, not design: Most salespeople never intended to go into the profession; they end up in sales by accident, not ambition.
  • [03:29] “Virtually everybody, not everyone, say 99% of people that are in sales are there by default, not design. They didn't want this for their life.”
• Minimal Training: Becoming a “professional” often just requires product training, a CRM login, and a suit—no deep mastery.
• Order Takers vs. True Sellers:
  • Most salespeople are not selling but merely taking orders. When times get tough (e.g., economic downturns), “order takers” get exposed.
  • [05:20] “During tough times, order takers are useless. The only ones that were selling are still selling.”

3. Lack of Process, Structure, and Effort

• Winging It: Many pride themselves on improvising instead of following protocols, equating charisma or “personality” with success.
  • [05:54] “They actually see winging it as a badge of honor. It's an element of pride... No, seriously, why did we win it?”
• Aversion to Learning: Few invest time outside working hours on self-improvement (watching sales videos, practicing pitches, etc.).
  • [07:47] Chris: “I don't think any of the sales people that I hired spend any time actually watching sales videos or pitches or high ticket closes. They don't watch any of it.”
  • [07:53] Dennehy: “No. Because they don't want to be there. Why would you spend your personal time on something you don't?”

4. Confrontation Avoidance and Emotional Programming

• Most salespeople hate confrontation, avoid tough questions, and are programmed as “buyers,” not “sellers.”
  • [08:58] “It's pathetic, isn't it? Because their fear is they hate confrontation. They don't like to challenge ... They'll lose something they've never had.”
• They default to “think it over” responses—mirroring what their upbringing taught them (“sleep on it, don’t rush into anything”).
  • This deeply rooted buyer’s mindset sabotages momentum in the sales process.

5. Emotional vs. Intellectual Selling

• Buying is Emotional, Justified by Logic:
  • [14:22] “Everything we buy is 100% emotional. But there's a second part. We have to justify it intellectually.”
  • Salespeople intellectually justify rather than trigger emotional buying drivers.
  • [15:05] “They don't do that because that's hard. Getting someone to emotionally admit they want it ... you need to have both parts.”

6. Ego, Rejection, and the Sales Roller Coaster

• Many salespeople lead with ego-centric pitches and crumble in the face of rejection.
  • [16:21] “Would you go up to a stranger [at a bar] and have that exact opener? ... Why are you phoning up, talking about you? You're a loser.”
• The cyclical emotional highs and lows of sales come from lack of process, emotional neediness, and personalizing rejection.
  • [18:01] “They have a roller coaster. Because one month they do really badly, and they go home and they think, well, I'm crap, but I'm not this crap. So next month, they try harder. ... They're always up and down because there's no consistency to what they do.”

7. The Realities of Recruiting & Retention

• Most salespeople who are looking for jobs are underperformers—top salespeople don’t leave jobs where they succeed.
  • [19:11] “So anyone ... you're looking for someone to hire anyone that applies for your job is probably crap.”
• Interview test: Make candidates do “on the spot” sales calls in interviews to expose real competence under pressure.
  • [20:14] “Most salespeople interview like Tom Cruise, but turn to Mr. Bean.”

8. Advice for Aspiring Salespeople

Should you get into sales?

• [22:04] “Don't. Really don't. Yeah. Unless you actually really want to do it.”

• Sales is akin to entrepreneurship—if you can't handle running a business, it's not for you.

• Focus first on prospecting. Before seeking a sales position, test your ability to prospect—sell yourself or your service, even as a freelancer.

• Read human psychology instead of “sales books.” The skills are about understanding people, not canned scripts.

  • [23:47] “Don't read sales books. They're all bollocks. That's why I've not written one.”

• Speech therapy & communication: Work on clarity and delivery; consider Toastmasters to diversify your communication styles.

  • [24:11] “The worst piece of advice you'll ever get in sales is just be yourself. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just be yourself is the worst piece of advice ... You need to change your personality to give them the one that'll make them feel comfortable.”

9. Sales Process & Control of the Conversation

• Always be asking questions—never relinquish control of the conversation.
  • [25:27] “The job of a good salesman is to extract, not give it. And the moment you lose control is when you start answering questions.”
• Learn Transactional Analysis—understanding communication patterns is key for conversation control.

10. Why “Relationship Selling” is Overrated

• The notion of “relationships” in sales is largely a myth—loyalty ends the moment financial or practical considerations shift.
  • [34:41] “You don't have a relationship even with customers you've been with for years ... If you go to them and say, look, we're struggling, we're gonna have to put our prices up by 20%, let's just see how loyal they are.”
• Family connections are the only exception; otherwise, everyone is fair game for a conversation.

11. Practical Techniques: Pushing Away to Draw In

• Use reverse psychology—push prospects away instead of chasing them.
  • [37:32] “Your job is to push people away, not pull them. Laura, Physics says if I push something away, there's an equal and opposite force. So if I push away, there's a good chance it'll swing back.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Most salespeople, if they're honest, are order takers. They're not really... we would have won the deal with a chimpanzee on roller skates sort of thing.”
  – Benjamin Dennehy [04:16]

• “If you're good at sales in your job, why would your boss let you go?”
  – Dennehy [19:00]

• “Books on psychology, though, understanding why people do what they do, study. There's a model for understanding human communication called transactional analysis. If you understand that you suddenly understand why every conversation you've ever had goes the way it goes, gives you a great amount of control.”
  – Dennehy [32:05]

• "Just be yourself is the worst piece of advice because yourself only appeals to about 20% of the population. And sometimes, you're a dick."
  – Benjamin Dennehy [24:11]

• “Selling is easy once you know what you're doing.”
  – Benjamin Dennehy [38:55]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:12 – Dennehy on being “most hated”
• 03:29 – Why most people enter sales by default, not ambition
• 05:20 – Order takers collapse in tough times
• 07:53 – Why most salespeople avoid extra learning
• 08:58 – Fear of confrontation and never really “losing” deals
• 14:22 – Emotional vs. intellectual decision-making
• 18:01 – The emotional rollercoaster of the average salesperson
• 19:11 – The reality of hiring: top talent seldom applies for jobs
• 22:04 – Dennehy’s tough advice for aspiring salespeople
• 24:11 – Why “just be yourself” hurts more than helps
• 25:27 – The importance of keeping control in conversations
• 32:05 – The value of psychology and transactional analysis
• 34:41 – The myth of “relationship selling”
• 37:32 – Pushing away prospects to pull them in

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Further Resources / Where to Find Benjamin Dennehy

• LinkedIn: Search “UK’s Most Hated Sales Trainer”
• Website: uksmosthatedsalestrainer.com
• Online Courses: salesmatrixcourses.com
• YouTube: Search for “UK’s Most Hated Sales Trainer”

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Takeaways

This episode is a no-holds-barred critique of the sales profession’s shortcomings. Dennehy’s advice is clear:

• Don’t get into sales unless you’re truly passionate.
• Focus on prospecting, understanding psychology, and mastering communication.
• Ditch the ego, stop winging it, and always control the conversation.
• Challenge prospects, don't seek their approval, and learn to push people away.
• Relationships in sales are transactional, not genuine friendships—act accordingly.

For those ready for tough truths and tangible improvement, Dennehy’s cold, candid wisdom offers a wake-up call and a roadmap to selling the right way.

Transcript

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[Chris Bentley]

I'm your host, Chris Bentley. Today my guest is Benjamin Dennehy.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Hello. Good to be here, Benjamin.

[Chris Bentley]

Tell the audience a little bit about yourself and what do you got going on?

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Well, as you know, I'm the UK's most hated sales trainer. I travel the world telling salespeople why they're losers, really, and trying to stop them from being losers. And it's a losing battle. I'm not going to lie, it is a losing battle. But hey, there's enough of it to keep me busy.

[Chris Bentley]

Talk to me about being the most hated sales trainer because I love sales. So I could see her all day talking about sales.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Okay, so.

I became the UK's most hated sales trainer because people always come up to me and they say, how did you become the UK's most hated sales trainer? And they almost ask it as if it's a serious title. You know, like there's some sort of international body that measures hate towards us, but there isn't. I made it up because one of the things I teach which salespeople are so oblivious to is so many of them are desperately and emotionally needy. They need to be liked. They want to be liked. They would rather leave a meeting without selling anything. But as long as the person said, I really enjoyed this meeting, I really had a great time meeting with you, and I think you guys are, if they get that, they're happy. And what I realized is, is when I was, you know, this is a very competitive industry that I'm in, sales training. And so when I was looking around at other sales trainers, I looked at how they described themselves, and they all described themselves the same way. Number one guru, best of top performer leader. You know, smashed it, achieved this. And I thought they still suffer from the same problem. They want to be loved. I thought, no one wants to be truly hated. So I thought, sort of, I will go for the most hated accolade I can get. So I created the title the UK's Most Hated Sales trainer. And then, of course, as I said before the podcast, Trump came along in about 2014 and he had that red hat, and I thought, oh, I'm Nick and that. And so that with the suspenders, I created this character which sort of got all over the world now, and people all over the world get me in. I'm over here in Texas on business currently. You know, I travel the world trying to stop salespeople being losers. It's just all I do.

[Chris Bentley]

What do you think the biggest issue is outside of just, you know, salespeople being wanted or loved? Like, what do you think the biggest issue is with salespeople? Because I got a couple.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah.

[Chris Bentley]

What is it that you really think or give me a couple that you think are the biggest issues?

[Benjamin Dennehy]

One of them is if you're honest. I did this at the event I was at the other day. There were about 30 salespeople in the room. I've done this in a room with 200 salespeople. When you say, put up your hand. If. When you're at school and your teacher said, what do you want to be when you grow up? How many of you went, oh, oh, oh, salesman. No hands ever go up. So virtually everybody, not everyone, say 99% of people that are in sales are there by default, not design. They didn't want this for their life. They had something better planned. You know, wanted to be a doctor or a lawyer or whatever, right? But you go to university, you study, I don't know, you study sports psychology or gender studies, and, you know, no one's going to pay you for this crap. So what do you do? If you're educated, thin, and look good in a suit and can string a sentence together without dribbling, you're qualified to enter sales. And they're always hiring. And so the problem with most people in sales is they don't want to be there. They're doing something that deep down, they don't really want to be doing. See, if you become a doctor or a lawyer or a professional sportsman, you spend your life wanting to do that, and then you spend hours training and studying and developing the art and the skill. No, to become a sales professional, it's three days product knowledge training, a new suit, a CRM System. And you are one. Congratulations. You're now a sales professional. So most of them are bumbling around through life, falling lucky. I mean, in fact, most salespeople, if they're honest, are order takers. Yeah, they're not really. Yeah, they're order takers. You know, we would have won the deal with the chimpanzee on roller skates sort of thing. Yeah. And so things like Covid were brilliant for people like me because the first thing it did. You know how many business owners I spoke to that said, during COVID we got to lay off half our sales team, but the same amount of money kept coming in.

[Chris Bentley]

Yeah, Right.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Because during tough times, order takers are useless.

[Chris Bentley]

Right.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

The only ones that were selling are still selling. And so most salespeople can't sell to save their lives. Rely on inbound opportunities around marketing, generate the leads, and they basically don't screw up taking an order. And so they struggle when they actually have to sell. And so, yeah, this is what I point out. They all admitted if you hold that ugly mirror up, they will admit it, but they hate to admit it. And the other thing is, none of them. Most don't follow a process or a structure.

[Chris Bentley]

Correct.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

So what they do is they wing it, and they actually see wigging it as a badge of honor. It's an element of pride, you know, so why'd we win the deal? You know, it's me, my winning personality. You know, I'm good at what I did. No, seriously, why did we win it? And they genuinely believe that to be the case. And so, like I said, would you hire a lawyer if you said, why do you win your cases? Well, juries just like me. No, seriously, Seriously. That's not why you consistently win cases or to a surgeon, why do your patients not die? I've grown. Bedside manner. That wouldn't cut it. No. If you ask a surgeon, why do your patients not die? He goes, do you know any times I've done an operation? I know every cut, every incision. I know every part of the body. I know if this happens, to do this, there's nothing that can happen that I'm not in control of. Resales people don't have that. They react to the prospect. They do things at the prospect's behest, and they hope like hell they've done enough to win.

[Chris Bentley]

I've seen a lot. So the salespeople that I have, I have 15 of them, they're all agents, and I try to train them the best I can, Right? And I'll give Them all the tools. You know, I'll be like, this is day one. You call, text, email. When you email, you email this. Yeah, Right. And then they'll be like, oh, I see what you're doing, but I hate to copy exactly what you're doing because it works. Instead, I'll just formulate my own thing and I'll do it that way. Well, I've been selling for a very long time, right? And then I asked myself, why can't someone just follow the protocol? Right? I mean, it's training, right? So then the next thing I have is that.

I don't think any of the sales people that I hired spend any time actually watching sales videos.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

No.

[Chris Bentley]

Or pitches or hard closes or high ticket closes. They don't watch any of it.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

No. Because they don't want to be there. Why would you spend your personal time.

On something you don't? It's. I like golf, but I don't want to be a professional golfer, so I don't spend hours trying to make my strokes brilliant. You know, why would I bother? You know, I don't care. I enjoy it. I do. I do enough to get by. And that's what salespeople do. They operate on the model that they do. Just enough to be relevant.

[Chris Bentley]

Yeah, it's more of like, I made the call, they're not interested. Well, why aren't they interested? They said that they're kind of looking around and not ready to buy it. They didn't tell you that they're not interested. They just said that they're not ready to buy it.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chris Bentley]

Well, yeah, I know, but.

I'm just gonna, like, leave them and never call them back again. Why did you ask them, like, hey, Johnny, so, like, what's your time frame for buying? Oh, like in 60 days, 90 days? What is it, six months?

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah.

[Chris Bentley]

Okay, six months. Okay, well, we're in May. I'll give you a call in December. Does that work for you?

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah.

[Chris Bentley]

Okay.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah. It's pathetic, isn't it? Because their fear is they hate confrontation. They don't like to challenge. Their fear is that if they do, this person won't like them and therefore they'll lose something they've never had. They're the biggest losers. These people constantly lose deals. I wouldn't meet a salesperson, oh, we lost the deal. I go, when did you have it? If you can tell me when you had it, I'll tell you. You've lost. You've never lost a deal in your life. You just don't win anything. That's different. Yeah, losing sounds that like you at least had a chance of winning. You didn't even get that far. So most salespeople, like I say because they don't want to be there. They're too scared to ask the tough, challenging questions they need to ask. And also the biggest problem we have is this is why I had the hat created as well, is underneath the hat is a buyer by nature. You programmed and designed to be a bar. You buy more than you sell. So when you're out selling, you put this little hat on, you go into work, you stick a hat and just say salesman. But underneath is actually a bar. So when you get in front of a prospect and they say something to you like, well, I need to think it over. Think right back to childhood now, what did your mum teach you about making decisions when you were growing up? Did she do, say do make them quickly and on the spot, or did your mum say, sleep on it. Get several options. Don't rush into anything. So the rule they were given as a kid and they were taught to do as a bar is think it over is okay. So when they hear a prospect say, I need to think it over, deep down, psychologically, their mum says, oh, I like him. His mum raised him just like I raised you. Yeah, you gotta let him think it over. So they take a think it over because they say, well, that seems fair. I'd want to think it over. Or somebody says, you're very expensive and their mum.

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[Benjamin Dennehy]

What learning should be.

Says, you are expensive now. Yeah, I know. You know, and so. So the problem is that when you got two bars talking to each other, you're going to get nowhere. They need to learn to be a salesman.

[Chris Bentley]

I think that's the biggest thing. I was doing insurance sales and it would be a situation where one of the parties wouldn't invite me over to do my sales pitch. Yeah, right. And sales for life insurance. I don't know how they do it now. I think they do teleprompter stuff now, but back then it was kneecap to kneecap. Like I'd sit there at the table and I'd be like, johnny, like why isn't your wife here? Doesn't your wife play a role in the finances? Like you know, that's your wife. Oh, she doesn't need to know anything. Okay, well I'll get you set up on this half million dollar policy and your wife's a beneficiary, blah blah, blah. Well, I got to speak to my wife. Yeah, well didn't I just say like isn't your wife going to be need to be here for that appointment or it's the vice versa. Which is like he buys the, the policy and I go home and I tell my trainer, my boss, manager, whatever it is, hey boss, like I just closed this half a million dollar policy on the husband. The wife didn't need to be there. Ha. I told you I can do a one legged appointment and close. Yeah, I winged that thing. I'm the man. And guess what happens?

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Let me guess. They phone up a few days later and change their mind.

[Chris Bentley]

Yeah, they cancel.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

I'm surprised.

[Chris Bentley]

Crazy.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Unbelievable. This, and this is, this is a problem with salespeople because they think that whenever they get in front of someone, they have to make everyone buy from them.

[Chris Bentley]

Right?

[Benjamin Dennehy]

What a good salesman does is I go in if I selling insurance. Look, it's like I'm not here to convince you to buy insurance. I'll tell you what, we know it works. We've built a billion dollar company doing this. So we're not here to convince you, you need to convince us. Why we should insure you, why should we help you? You got to flip the script. And if your wife isn't going to be there, I'm not coming.

[Chris Bentley]

Right.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Simple as that, sir. Yeah, because. And if he says, well, she doesn't need to be involved, you just say. Can I be upfront with you, sir? I've been selling insurance for 20 years and I can tell you for a fact that your wife is going to have the final say on this. So if she's not going to be there, I'm just not coming. And it's planting your feet and knowing when you'll do something and when you're not. It's not running around getting in front of anyone just so you can have a conversation with them. Most salespeople are like social workers, but less effective.

[Chris Bentley]

I agree. Yeah, I agree. And I think.

The biggest thing about getting into sales is that you have, it's a craft. You have to hone your craft. You have to know when to pause, you know when to slow roll it, you know when to have tonality. I watched A lot of sales tapes. And I enjoy being a salesperson.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

It's a communication skill.

[Chris Bentley]

It's like unlocking a safe, right? You may be 1 left, 2 right, and it opens. And you're a quick buyer. And you may be in something completely different. You may be like, three turns to the right, three turns to the left, three turns to the right again, four turns to the left, and before you know it, I gotta do it 12 times. And then it opens.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

There is that. There's also the fact that if you ask a salesperson, how does a human being buy anything? Most of them give the right answer, which is baffling because they don't apply the answer. So you ask anyone, how does anyone buy anything? And the answer is, well, we buy emotionally. Everything we buy is 100% emotional. But there's a second part. We have to justify it intellectually. So emotionally, I may want a Ferrari. Intellectually, I don't have the $250,000 to buy it. So emotionally, I want it. Intellectually, I can't get it. Salespeople spend most of their time intellectually trying to convince someone why to buy. Even though whenever you ask them, how do people buy, they buy emotion. So why have you not structured or designed your conversation to get someone emotional?

[Chris Bentley]

Right.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

They don't do that because that's hard. Getting someone to emotionally admit they want it because, again, someone can emotion, intellectually want something, but emotionally don't need it. And we've all had that. You can get in front of someone and prove to them intellectually that your product will save them $100,000 a year. I can prove it. And they look at it, they say, yeah, it's great, but I'm not interested. Because emotionally, what you don't realize is 100k is not a lot of money to me. I don't care. I don't want to go through all this effort to get 100k. So emotionally, I don't care. Intellectually, I get it. So you need to have both parts. Salespeople rarely sell to the emotion. They sell primarily to the intellect. And I think their job is to convince people where it's not. You can't convince anyone of anything.

[Chris Bentley]

I think it's also one of the bigger things. I'll kind of get to some other questions here. I think one of the biggest things is people's egos.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Absolutely.

[Chris Bentley]

So if I call you up and I say, hey, it's Chris Bentley with Bentley Fine Properties, I've sold millions and millions of real estate. I've been in different states. I. I have numerous awards about how amazing I am and how great of a salesperson I am. And I will love to sell you a $250,000 house. You're going to be like, first of all, cool, man.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

That's what. Now take that exact conversation, apply it to a bar on a Friday night, and you see someone you're attracted to. Would you go up to a stranger and have that exact opener? It's like, no. What would happen? Well, she's probably going to slap you or walk away. Exactly. So why do you think you can do it to someone on the phone in a business situation? No one gives a toss about you. Why are you phoning up, talking about you? You're a loser. The fact that you're having to do this makes them already think you're a loser. So you need to figure out a better way to talk to this person, and you need to hook them emotionally, you know? So I call. You know, they. It's just. And, yes, you're right. If you phone up, talking to people about yourself and they keep saying off, that's gonna hurt, right? Until they take it personally. And this is what they are emotionally needy. Most won't prospect because I think it's beneath them.

But the reality is, they don't believe it works. And it doesn't work because the way they do it, no. I spend my life teaching people how to prospect, and it's hard to get people to change.

[Chris Bentley]

I think it's very hard for people to.

Swallow that tough pill, which is, hey, I met you. I'm Chris Bentley. I want your business. And you say to me, chris, that's great, but I'm not giving you my business. I'm gonna go somewhere else. And instead of me being like, oh, well, next person, the only thing I do is go. He didn't want to do business with me, and now I'm gonna go home.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

And cry, sit on the end of a bed with a sock in one.

[Chris Bentley]

Hand, in a fetal position.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

In a fetal position, thinking, God, I suck. And this is why they like this. They have a roller coaster. Because one month they do really badly, and they go home and they think, well, I'm crap, but I'm not this crap. So next month, they try harder. I do well. But what happens is they go home and they say, well, I'm good, but I'm not normally this good. So then they drop back down. So they're always up and down because there's no consistency to what they do. And, yeah, it's. It's it is a very lonely, depressing place. If you're an average salesman, which most salespeople are. And if you. What is it? You can see it. Most salespeople swap jobs every three years, give or take.

[Chris Bentley]

Right.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

And when you ask them why. Why do you. Why did you swap jobs? They always give that same line, seeking new challenges. No, you were going to get fired and you jumped ship before you could be sacked. Because a good. There's no reason to quit a sales job if you're good at it.

[Chris Bentley]

Right.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Unless maybe you're moving to the other side of the country and they won't let you work from home.

[Chris Bentley]

Right.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

But otherwise, if you're good at sales in your job, why would your boss let you go?

[Chris Bentley]

Right.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah.

[Chris Bentley]

And you're making money and you're making.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah.

[Chris Bentley]

Clientele. You have stuff going on.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Exactly. So anyone who's actually. So if you're listening to this and you're an employer and you're looking for someone to hire anyone that applies for your job is probably crap.

[Chris Bentley]

Yeah, I mean, I get it all.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Headhunting. Headhunting.

[Chris Bentley]

I get it. I'll get a real estate, and I'll get into some of these questions, but I'll get a real estate agent. I'll put an ad out. Yeah, get a real estate agent. Haven't closed anything in two years. So then I'm like, okay, well, like, what have you been doing for two years? Oh, well, like, you know, I drive for Uber and, like, I pick up, you know, or I walk dogs or something. Okay, cool. So, like, on all that stuff you were doing, you never asked if anybody was looking to buy or sell a home or possibly move into a new apartment? Oh, no, no, I can't do that.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

No. God forbid I prospect.

[Chris Bentley]

So for two years, you did nothing? Like, nobody ever. In all your circle, it could be one person, it could be a million people, and all your circle, you never had a conversation and somebody was like, you know what? I need to move into an apartment. Never.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

No. Doesn't surprise me. When I interview salespeople to help companies hire people, one of the first things I do is in the meeting, I say, okay, I'm gonna get you to make a call for us now. Do you know how many of them freeze? Will you make a call now? Yeah, I want to hear you on the phone. Because what I point out is the interviewee is the best you're ever gonna get them. They're polished, they're ready for the interview. What they're like, under pressure is what they're gonna be like on payroll. Most salespeople interview like Tom Cruise, but turn to Mr. Bean.

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Once you're paying their check.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Right. So my job is to see are you going to be Tom Cruise or are you going to miss the Bean? I've had people refuse to do it. Then will, the interview's over. Fuck off. Yeah. You know, this is a telephone based job. If you can't pick up the phone in front of me now under this pressure, because this is what it's going to be like in the real world. What you're feeling right now is so I want to see you perform. And they can't get past gatekeepers.

So how long have you been in sales? Three years. How have you not figured out how to get past a gatekeeper in three years? What have you been doing? Oh, well, I primarily get inbound.

Oh, you just used a phone? You never prospected with a phone, you know, Unbelievable.

[Chris Bentley]

But hey, what do you think? A piece of advice or maybe multiple pieces of advice for somebody that's looking to get into sales?

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Don't. Really don't. Yeah. Unless you actually really want to do it. In fact, I've been self employed for 20 years. I'd be my own boss for 20 years. So if you can't run your own business, you really probably shouldn't be a salesperson because a salesperson is 100% commission. So you're an entrepreneur? I'm an entrepreneur. We don't get paid unless we sell, do we? No, no. So why should the company pay you to come in and breathe their air and use their phone lines and achieve nothing? So I think if you want to go into sales, you should figure out how to prospect, which you can do for free. It's not that hard. Sell yourself in, try and sell in your services. And so many people I've trained have left their jobs and gone on to do business development for other companies.

[Chris Bentley]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

And they contract their services. You make a lot more money now your own boss, you get to pick who you work for. You know, some people say, well, I hated the product That I had to sell then. So you had to quit your job. You got nothing to fall back. At least I could pick and choose who I worked with. I did it for years. And then once I got good at it, the next evolution was is I can now turn this into a business and I can make a lot more money teaching lots more people how to do this. And so I have no sympathy. So if you want to go into sales, you have to want to. Don't do this because you just graduated university and you need a job. That's no reason to do it. Say, I want to go into this for. I want to be good. I want to turn this into a profession just like it is if done well. Otherwise, it's a miserable life. But if you are going to go into it, spend some time reading books on human psychology, understanding how people interact. Don't read sales books. They're all bollocks. That's why I've not written one.

[Chris Bentley]

I think the biggest thing is to get speech therapy. So I think that most salespeople are, duh.

Duh. So I really want to buy you or help you with your.

Program. Yeah, I. Absolutely. If somebody does that to me on the phone, if they do it once.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

You'Re allowed to make the odd mistake. I say, my time. My clients join Toastmasters, the speaking club. I say, yeah, if you want to get good, join Toastmasters. Learn how to deliver different types of speech and different styles, because the worst piece of advice you'll ever get in sales is just be yourself. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just be yourself is the worst piece of advice because yourself only appeals to about 20% of the pop.

You're a dick. So you need to change your personality to give them the one that'll make them feel comfortable. And then again, selling, as I say, it's like a. It's like a West End show played by a psychiatrist. You got to be an actor, you've got to understand human psychology. And you get those two right. It's easy.

[Chris Bentley]

I've heard some sales calls. Like I said, like, I. It's a craft for me. I love it. Right. And.

You know, I talk a lot about Wolf of Wall Street, Jordan Belford, straight line, persuasion. One of the things I got, Fish. One of the things that I see, people get caught up all the time, salespeople get caught up on is the prospect will take over the conversation. And before you know it, you're talking about fighter planes in Germany.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah.

[Chris Bentley]

And we're sitting here trying to talk about Refinancing your loan.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

So the reason that happens is, and what most salesmen don't realize is from the moment you were born, you've been programmed to answer a question. It's now a default setting. You're now 35, 45, 55. Someone asks you a question, you habitually answer, almost automatically. Someone says, how was your day? You up? Fine. Would you like a cup of coffee? No, I'm all right. What's the time? I don't have a watch. It's a program. So the rule. One of the things I teach people is it's your job is to always be asking the questions. And even if they ask you one, your job is not to answer it, but return it with a question. So when somebody says, so where are you guys based? You know? You know, no one ever asked me that question. I mean, I'm happy to. Quick question, though. Out of interest. Our location. I'm guessing that's important to you. Well, yeah, because we prefer to work with someone local. Oh, okay. So when you say local, what do you mean? Well, I mean in the Dallas area. Ah. So if I told you we're based down in San Antonio, you're gonna tell me we're too far away, aren't you? No, I wouldn't. Or, yes, it doesn't matter. But nothing. I've not actually answered anything Right. And so the job of a good salesman is to extract, not give it. And the moment you lose control is when you start answering a question, reprogramming yourself how not to answer a question. It's hard. It's very hard. You. I do this with all my trainees. I say, I guarantee you won't last 30 seconds after the training. You're gonna leave here, and someone's gonna say, how was it? Without thinking you're gonna answer. So if I. So I train my brain to only answer a question in a situation like this where I do it, but if any. And in a selling situation or even a social situation, what do you do for a living? I go, can you guess? And they never guess. And eventually after, if I told. And then again, the answer's done in the form of a question. If I told you I was a corporate sales trainer, what would you say? No, you don't look like a sales trainer. Why do you say that? Well, you've got long hair. You're pretty messy. That's not very corporate. Why do you think that makes me good at what I do? You see? So I never answer. And it's a skill. And that is it you lose control of the conversation once you start answering questions.

[Chris Bentley]

What do you think about a lot of these sales trainers out here? I mean, you got like Grant Cardone, you got numerous other names out there. So we had a guy on here, Austin. I think he does a really great job with high ticket sales. I listen to his stuff all the time. What do you think about the guys that are out there right now?

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Some of them are good, some of them are bad. I mean, there's nothing new under the sun, right, Is there? And what most people do is it's what I've done. Everything I do, I've learned. It's not like I've developed anything. And then I've done what all capitalists do. I take what I've learned, I repackage it, and I sell it. I think the only things you. The Americans, whether. Whenever I look at an American, I think, man, I got to go to the gym. Because they all look like ex wrestlers, don't they? I mean, every single one of them is absolutely bulked up. And it's like, not only am I selling sales training, but here's my power drink and my sustenance package on the side, you know, So I find that quite entertaining. It's very different to in the uk. But, yeah, like I say.

The best way to judge on whether or not these people are going to be any good to you is go through their sales process. And I've phoned a lot of these because they have a lot of teams that cold call for them, and you just listen to how they conduct themselves. You think this is the A game. How these guys are performing has to be the A game because these are all trained by the company to do this.

[Chris Bentley]

Right.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

How these guys are performing is the absolute best it's going to be. And if you think it's pretty poor, don't buy.

[Chris Bentley]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Because the proof is in the pudding. Yeah. If someone can't say that was a really good. The way you did that, I don't know. I don't know how you got me to want to meet with you, but it's very good how you did that. But if you're not getting that feeling, if you can feel them sort of corralling you towards a yes, which a lot of them do, they try to get you to say yes answers. Yes, yes, yes. A lot of this. But I know where you're taking me. Right. And so even if at the end I capitulated the moment, okay, fine, I'll sign up as soon as the phone hangs Up I then go through the precious God, I'm now free. It's like, no, I'm not going through that. So the worst salespeople bully, badger, or corral someone into doing it. I spend my whole time trying to convince people not to buy my stuff. Whenever I get in front of a company or an individual, I say, you don't need me now. I do. Why do you need sales training? Because I need to be better. Well, what are you currently doing now? Well, I make 150k. Well, that's a fucking lot of money. How much more do you want to make?

Well, I want to make 300. Well, why aren't you.

[Chris Bentley]

What would you recommend? Let's say that you got someone. Usually it's younger folks, right? So someone young. They're interested in sales. They've seen some of these sales trainers out there. They've seen the money that high ticket sales people make. They've seen that kind of stuff. What do you recommend? Do you recommend books? Do you recommend seminars? Do you recommend all the above? For myself, I like to give my salespeople, even though they don't read or watch any of the stuff, but I like to give them the same thing that I'm doing, right? And a lot of it is just tonality, pitch.

And understanding where you are in the sales process and learning to pause and listen to what's going on. So if I ask you a question and. And then you answer it, I don't go, oh, great, and then I go into this whole story trying to be your friend. I'm listening to what you're saying.

What do you recommend? Do you recommend books? Do you recommend audio tapes? Do you recommend going to these?

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Well, audio tapes are books. If you're gonna read books, though, I would steer clear of most sales books. I don't think most of them. You know, nowadays, when you meet someone on Zoom, it's very common for everyone to have that library behind them with certain books angled out. And it's like, look at how well read I am. It's like, have you ever done anything in those books?

[Chris Bentley]

Right.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah, because a lot of people like reading about getting good. It's like. Like reading about being a top golfer. Do you actually out practicing, though, hours? No, no, I. I just, you know, I figure it'll eventually bleed into my stroke. It doesn't. So books on psychology, though, understanding why people do what they do, study. There's. There's a. There's a model for understanding human communication called transactional analysis. If you understand that you suddenly Understand why every conversation you've ever had goes the way it goes, gives you a great amount of control, and this is it. This is about controlling the conversation. So whenever I ask salespeople what's the purpose of a prospecting call, I'll ask this. And every time I get the same answers. Oh, to get a meeting, to get an appointment, to find pain. And I go, no, those are all great answers, but all of those are possible outcomes. I said, what is the purpose? What are we trying to do to this human being? And nobody ever gets it. Okay, well, you've already answered it previously, because when I said, how does a human being buy anything? And they say, emotionally. So what are we trying to do to someone on a prospecting goal? Trying to get them emotional. That's it. We need to get them to feel something about whatever it is that we fix so that there's enough for them by the end of the call to say, you know what? Maybe you have got something. We should talk more. Because a prospecting call is the ultimate goal is to get the person emotional so they'll agree to a proper conversation.

[Chris Bentley]

Correct?

[Benjamin Dennehy]

That's what I'm trying to do. But if you're going and trying to intellectually convince them why they should meet with you, you're pushing rope uphill. But if you can hook them emotionally, these are the three things we typically fix with people like you. But you're probably going to tell me, don't relate to any of them. Well, I can relate to the first one. Now I go, and now I take them on a little process of understanding a little bit more about that one that they picked. Now we get them feeling something and say, well, look, I don't know if I can fix it, but let's pretend we could fix it and you genuinely believed our solution would work. Is there any reason you wouldn't invite me in for half an hour, say 45 minutes to explore that? Most people at this point say, well, no. So it's. That's the purpose. The outcome is an appointment. And if you don't structure your call to achieve that purpose, you're wasting your time. And it doesn't matter how many times I show sales people to lose is demonstrate it. They always fall back to talking about themselves because they get asked a question and they're straight back into answer mode. So this is to be a good Salesman. You are 100% in control, and you're 100% present, and a prospect can't pull one over on you.

[Chris Bentley]

I think some of the biggest Things is that the salesperson tries to be friends with the prospect.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah, I don't need any friends. I got enough.

[Chris Bentley]

And then I call you up and then I'm like, benjamin, bro, hey, how are you, man?

[Benjamin Dennehy]

You doing well?

[Chris Bentley]

Doing well. Like, looks like he got a couple reps in at the gym, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, it's, I'm just trying to buy a house.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Well, the worst word in sales is relationship.

[Chris Bentley]

Right?

[Benjamin Dennehy]

You don't have a relationship even with customers you've been with for years. If you go to them and say, look, we're struggling, we're gonna have to put our prices up by 20%, let's just see how loyal they are.

[Chris Bentley]

Or friendly.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah, there's no loyalty in business. So whenever somebody says to me, I love this, I get this. If somebody says to me, well, look, we already have a supplier. I go, can I ask a personal question? I go, it's not your brother in law's company, is it? And they go, no, I got a few. Because I thought you're going to tell me you couldn't talk to anyone else because you're worried about upsetting family. I said, so you could still talk to me then with. Well, I guess I could, yeah. Only family you have loyalty to. If it's not family, then you can talk to me. Right? So, yeah, relationships, it's a word salespeople use to define not getting anywhere, Right?

[Chris Bentley]

Oh, yeah, I called him, we talked, we had a great relationship. You know, I think we can do business in the future. Why in the future? Why can't you do business now?

That was always my thing. I was like, well, like we used to have. And I'll, I'll stop it after this one. We used to have these insurance cards.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah.

[Chris Bentley]

And I kid you not, it would be a mailer, right?

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah.

[Chris Bentley]

And they would send out these mailers and the person would open it up and they'd be like, hey, like, are you interested in buying some, some life insurance? And then they would fill in their name and be like, chris Bentley, street. This number, this email, you know, and they're all older folks. So he's like aol, Right, right. And then, then the things would come back, right? The cards would come back in bulk.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Bulk, yeah.

[Chris Bentley]

And we get all these cards. It'd be stacks, stacks of cards. So then you get my card, right? And you'd be like, chris Bentley, I see that you're interested in buying some life insurance. You filled out this mailer and I got it today and I'm really excited about meeting with you to discuss your new policy.

Oh, they didn't want to buy.

They said that they're not really interested right now, so I'll just put this over. So why weren't they interested? They spent time.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Why did they fill in the card?

[Chris Bentley]

Filling in a card? Yeah, putting it in the envelope and mailing it back. What makes you think that they're not interested in buying something?

They put forth all that effort. I'm sorry, I just go on this.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

No, no, no. It's funny because I work with companies that do that. The modern form is you offer somebo something on your website, right. And in order to download white paper, as they call it, so you've got to enter your details. Now, then they use that as an excuse to chase up. But of course, when you phone these people, 80% of them deny ever downloading it.

[Chris Bentley]

Right. We're filling in their information. Right.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

And so they said, how do we get around that? I get. Because you're going it about the wrong way. Your job is to push people away, not pull them. Laura, Physics says if I push something away, there's an equal and opposite force. So if I push away, there's a good chance it'll swing back. So I said, what you do is you phone them up and say, hey, Richard, I noticed you filled in a form on our website to download xyz. Yeah. Can I ask you a question? Was that a mistake? And then we'll get. What? No, no, no, no. I meant to do it. Oh, okay. Because most people don't remember. No, no, I remember doing it. But you're going to tell me you haven't had a chance to read it.

You know. Okay. And so now. But you push them away to get them to. No, no, I did do that, but. But when you. Yeah, like that with those card things. A lot of people in the moment did it and sometimes they forget they did it. No, no, I'm not interested. I change. Yeah, yeah. So you push away. I noticed you filled in a card. Do you mind me asking you didn't mean to do that, though. That was. Someone did it on your behalf. It wasn't you? No, no, it was me. Oh. Could I ask why you sent it back, Right.

[Chris Bentley]

Or took the time to do that?

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah, well, because I'm interested in getting some insurance. Well, when you say interested, what do you mean? Do you need insurance or do you not need insurance? Well, I need it. Well, how do you know you need it and you're into questioning and once I'm into questioning. I'm in control. Right. South people don't do that.

Yeah. Crazy selling is easy once you know what you're doing. Yeah.

[Chris Bentley]

And that's what I was saying earlier. It's like, it's like a combination lock.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah.

[Chris Bentley]

You know, like it may be two to the left and two to the right to get you to buy something and then it may be to the left, to the right, to the left, to the right. And before you know it, bam, the lock opens. Yeah. And I'm like, ah. And those are the ones I like the best.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

I take a little bit of time, I like that.

[Chris Bentley]

And then it pops open and I'm like, got you.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Yeah.

[Chris Bentley]

No, Benjamin, if someone was interested in getting in touch with you, learning more about your sales training and books, anything like that, but maybe picking your brain or just like me that likes to talk about sales all day long, where would they find you?

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Find me on LinkedIn is probably the best place. But if you Google UK's most hated sales trainer, it's almost impossible not to find me. So yeah. And yeah, go to UK's most headed sales trainer.com I also sell my online courses which are very [e-mail] but just literally Google UK's most hated sales trainer and you'll find me. And also I've got a YouTube channel which is quite popular as well. So if you want to watch me doing cold calls and stuff like that, go and visit that again. Just put UK's most headed sales trainer into a Google search or YouTube search and you'll find me. I'm impossible not to find.

[Chris Bentley]

Benjamin, appreciate you being on the show.

[Benjamin Dennehy]

Hey Chris, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.

[Chris Bentley]

Awesome. Thank you.

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