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Social Media Marketing Podcast
How to Cultivate Content Creativity: A Framework for Marketers
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- [00:01]
A
Over 3000 marketers are gathering in Anaheim this April for Social media Marketing World 2026. They're not coming because it's trendy. They're coming because it works. Martha Cromer told us quote I've been to conferences where I've only heard things I already knew. I learned so many new concepts at Social Media Marketing World. I definitely got my money's worth. Unquote. Year after year, marketers credit Social Media Marketing World with career advancements, business breakthroughs and and strategies their competitors haven't yet discovered. Maddie Young Shared quote this year was my first time at Social Media Marketing World. It exceeded every expectation I had. The value of the sessions and networking experiences cannot be overstated. Unquote. While you're deciding whether to attend, thousands of marketers have already secured their spots. Get your tickets now@social mediamarketingworld.info that social media marketing world.info. Welcome to the Social Media Marketing Podcast helping you navigate the social media jungle. And now, here is your host, Michael Stelzner. Hello, hello, hello. Thank you so much for joining me for the Social Media Marketing podcast brought to you by Social Media Examiner. I'm your host, Michael Stelzner and this is the podcast for marketers and business owners who want more exposure, more leads and more sales. Do you ever find yourself in a position where you are lacking good ideas, you feel stuck, you know you need to do something different, but for whatever reason, you just have not been able to unlock the ideas, especially with your content, but even with your business in general, any kind of idea that could allow innovation and really move things forward.
- [01:55]
B
Innovation.
- [01:55]
A
If you find yourself in that position, I know so many of us do. Today is the episode for you. We're going to talk about how to cultivate content creativity and we're going to talk about it from a operational framework perspective that involves really easy to understand concepts that will unlock a lot of amazing things for you. I absolutely love today's episode. I'm going to be joined by Melanie Diesel and I think you will enjoy it as well. If you're new to this podcast, be sure to follow us on whatever app you're listening to us on. Let's now transition over to this week's interview with Melanie Diesel, helping you to simplify your social safari. Here is this week's expert guide. Today, I'm very excited to be joined by Melanie Diesel. She is a creative systems architect that helps marketers and individuals create better content content through content operations. She's also the author of multiple books including Prove it. And the Content Fuel framework. Melanie, welcome back to the show.
- [02:57]
B
It's good to be back.
- [02:59]
A
So today, Melanie and I are going to explore how to creatively come up with content ideas that will help your business. So, Melanie, why do so many businesses struggle with the creative side of things, especially when it comes to content creation? Right. Because so many of us just kind of get stuck. We feel like we've done it all and we don't even know where to start.
- [03:18]
B
I mean, there's a couple of reasons. One of them, of course, is like, we're human and sometimes we just fall into habits, we fall into routines, and we just keep doing the same stuff over and over because it's convenient and we've done it before. There's also the fact that none of us have as many resources, as much time, as many people as we hope we could. Right. That marketing studies show that year after year that most of us wish we had more resources. But I think the biggest thing is that the way that creativity operates is almost the exact opposite of the way that most businesses are forced to operate. Right? That's kind of the biggest thing. You know, most businesses are focused on maximum output at maximum speed, maximum efficiency, very little risk tolerance. We've got to get it right. And creativity, by contrast, requires taking risks. It takes time for good ideas to develop. You have to feel comfortable and safe to take those kinds of risks and not that you're going to get fired or not hit your bonus, you know, and not hit your goals. So it's really difficult to prioritize creativity in those situations because, like, the situation we're in just doesn't allow for it.
- [04:20]
A
Well, it's interesting that you say that, because if I think about this, creativity requires a lot more brain power for a lot of us. Like, we have to actually be in a good state of mind to be creative. And it's hard when we have a list of things to do a mile long and we're stuck in task mode. Right. And in addition to that, I feel like AI has kind of freed up a little bit more of that mental thinking block, and now we can be creative more. I'm just curious what you think having.
- [04:45]
B
AI take some things off our plate is going to be helpful? Because you're right, it does free up more of that brain space to do the creative work. I think it's worth noting, too, that, you know, I think being creative and getting to have time to make more innovative work is really exciting. That's not everybody's priority, and that's okay, right. Some of us may be in roles where it's, you know, it's more required that we're. We're really focused on conversion or we're really focused on the numbers and maybe we don't have the space or time to innovate. Sure, that's fine. But I think for those of us who do like to do this work, we like the act of creating, of capturing, of sharing, of creating engagement, then being able to free up some brand space to actually work on more stuff like this, I think is. Is a huge opportunity if you do it well.
- [05:25]
A
Now you have a big background in content, obviously that's where a lot of my audience is going to know you from your experience on the content side of things, and your books are very focused on content. When businesses, marketers, creators who happen to be listening, when they are able to actually figure out a way, a method, a model, for lack of better words, which we're going to talk about today, that allows them to be more creative, what is the benefit? What is the output? What is the upside that comes from that?
- [05:51]
B
I mean, there's all kinds. You know, there's a lot of studies that show how creativity can have positive impacts in different areas of the business. Obviously, if you're creating different work, typically that means you're learning more about what your audience likes to engage with, about how to share your message. And that almost, almost certainly has financial upside in some way or another, Right? Whether it's engaging your audience, retaining them, which is cheaper than acquiring new, or whether it's just, you know, creating that deeper engagement that leads to loyalty. So there's a lot of benefits that come from being able to find new ways to connect and engage with your audience through content. But it also does wonders for culture if you're part of a team, even if that means, like, you're using some freelance or, you know, some contractors, if you're not part of a huge team yourself. That ability to have people feel comfortable sharing ideas, to collaborate on those ideas, to feel like everyone's ideas are being heard and valued, can really make huge changes in the culture and that, you know, that allows people to feel more valued.
- [06:48]
A
Okay, so let's send some groundwork here. So what we're really talking about today is conceptually based on what I believe I understand to be the topic of today is that, hey, you have people that work with you, you have people that work for you. They have special insights and they have special knowledge, and you don't have to do this alone. And there's a method that we're going to talk about that allows you to effectively cultivate creativity inside of your company. And from those ideas, great content can come out. Like, like, am I describing this correctly? Like let's just set the grounds for what we're about to talk about.
- [07:20]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So essentially, you know, as we talked about, the way businesses operate is kind of opposite of the way creativity operates. Most businesses or, you know, individual creators, enterprises, however you describe, we want to be innovative, we want to be disruptive, we want people to believe that what we do is cool, that we're smart, that we're capable. But that is really not possible unless you're taking some conscious effort to make sure that you're thinking and operating in a creative way. Because as we said, the default is going to be to fall into that quantity over quality. It's going to be to fall into what's easy and familiar, fall into what everyone else is doing and we know is safe and we know it works, even if it's not. Incredible breakthrough, game changing stuff. So yeah, what we're talking about is really how do you create that environment for yourself, for your immediate team, for anyone you're working with or around or near even. How do you make it so that creativity is something that you have the space for and also that you all see the value in equally so that you can do better work, that you can take the content you're creating, no matter where you're sharing it, and really bring it to the next level.
- [08:22]
A
Love it. Okay, so we're going to call this cultivating creativity just from a concept perspective because that's kind of what you and I agreed on. Well, actually cultivating content creativity is really what we're focusing on here.
- [08:32]
B
Yeah.
- [08:33]
A
Not just any kind of creativity. So is there any kind of ground rules we need to talk about before we begin to talk about how we can go about doing this? Any kind of company wide concepts or things that we need to really like, kind of maybe level set before we enter into a discussion like this.
- [08:51]
B
Like anything, you know, this requires buy in. Right. Getting people to agree with you. If you're the only one trying to push the envelope internally and everybody around you wants to do what's safe, they don't want to innovate, they don't want to disrupt, they just want to, you know, clock out at 5pm and get their pension at the end of the day, like you're gonna probably have a tough time pushing this stuff through. But it really is a culture, right? Like it's about creating the psychological safety to be able to suggest those ideas. The best example I could think of is if I ask you, you know, if you're listening, like, take a minute and think of the last time you made a suggestion and got shot down, right? Just think about that moment, whether it was like, I think we should go here for dinner, or whether it was at work and you were like, hey, maybe we try this new thing. When you get shut down, the self protective response is, I'm not doing that again. I'm not going to suggest something. I might not suggest anything in this meeting. I may never suggest anything like that ever again. Right. When you create that environment where people feel like they're, you know, like innovation is not respected, ideas are not welcome, that is toxic. And it really spreads throughout the team. It makes people feel very individualistic. It makes them feel really protective. It makes them really risk averse. Right? So this is something that's not just like, oh, here's like some happy brainstorm tips, right? It's like we have to think about whether the culture that we're creating in, whether even that could even be how you talk to yourself, right? Like the culture that you are creating in, is it conducive to creativity? And if not, what are some of the changes we can make as individuals, as leaders on our team, or as an organization as a whole to value those things more and make sure it's a safe space for people to be putting forth ideas, to try new things, to innovate, to make new things.
- [10:31]
A
You know, I think some of us are guilty, I'm raising my hand of having shot down ideas. As a matter of fact, some of us, that is our job. You know what I mean? As the CEO of my company, my job is to discern good ideas from bad ideas. And I know for a fact, I can speak from experience, that some of my employees have decided not to come back with ideas because our idea was not accepted. We have to not accept all ideas, otherwise we can't be successful. So how can we cultivate a culture that allows us to say this idea isn't going to work and not have the other person feel, quote, unquote, shot down?
- [11:03]
B
Totally. Yeah. I mean, because you can't do everything right? And there are genuinely. I mean, everyone says there's no bad ideas. Like there are some bad ideas. Like you probably shouldn't, you know, tattoo your entire face and run around naked. Like that's a bad idea. Yeah.
- [11:14]
A
Or decide to, like just spend all the money on one thing and hope it's just gonna pay for itself. You know what I mean? Down the road.
- [11:19]
B
Yeah, yeah. Like, really go all in on Yellow Pages. Like, that's. That's what we need to do as a business. No, there are some bad ideas. Right. What I think is really important is understanding the role that the two parts of creativity play. Because a good idea does require big thinking and sometimes bad ideas, right? Like, it requires that growth, and then it also requires people to come in and say, now how do we make that reasonable? How do we make that achievable? How do we build on that into something that might be more reasonable? Maybe we shouldn't go all in on Yellow Pages, but, you know, you might be right. Maybe we should check out some of the analog things we've kind of discounted and see if there is opportunity there. So, you know, the idea may not be the first one that comes out, but if we're shooting stuff down, those first ideas won't come out anymore. Right. So it is a balance of understanding when is the right time for us to be building and growing. Right. And when is the right time for us to be bringing reality back in the room? And there's definitely some ways you can organize your team around that to create space for both of those processes. So we're not getting too crazy, but we're also not shutting stuff down too quickly.
- [12:19]
A
Well, if we have time later and we remember, we can talk about the framework that I've come up with to allow ideas to exist inside my company. That's a little bit of a. Of a side trail, but it has nothing to do with content, because I have just. I have bazillions of people that have ideas. You know what I mean? And some of them are not thought through at all. And sometimes they can be massive distractions. But I love the idea conceptually. What I'm hearing you say is, hey, try to build an environment where ideas are welcome, because if they're not welcome, you will never receive them. That's really what I'm hearing you say. Is that correct?
- [12:50]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. So I like to give an example of landscaping. Right. We all know if you want a tree to grow, like, it takes time, and there's probably going to be some branches growing in some weird directions, and, like, maybe a vine pops up, there's weeds. Right? Right. But you need to give it time to grow. If you chop it off at the knees, like, you're just going to have a stump. You're never going to get bigger than that. And so it's not about A lack of feedback. It's not about a lack of pruning or landscaping or trimming. It's really about giving it time to grow and then pruning strategically at the appropriate time so you end up with something pretty and not something, you know, overgrown. So, yeah, they're, they're both valuable and truly creative thinking. We think it's one thing, but it is actually those two things working together. It's the divergent thinking, the big idea thinking thinking, and then it's the convergent thinking bringing it back in and making it realistic. And you need both. You can't really function without them.
- [13:41]
A
Okay, cool. So first of all, this is really important little thing we just talked about for some people, you know, like me, that are idea people but can't accept all ideas because we just have the mental bandwidth to do it. So, so just being open to ideas. So now we're going to get into some of the more frameworks and stuff ultimately that's going to allow people to process this. So let's just say we agree. Let's say we agree, the listener and us agree that need better ideas when it comes to our content. We know that they're going to come probably from people that are around us. So now that we've talked about the importance of culture, what's the next thing we need to be thinking about?
- [14:19]
B
The next thing you want to do is just kind of set yourself up for success as best you can. Because again, as we said, like the way businesses operate, creativity is not going to happen unless we put intention behind it. So there are a couple things you can do. The first thing you want to do is like, be open about it. So I have found really good success coming in and saying, like, hey, look, I know we all want to create good work. Nobody in this room woke up this morning and said, I can't wait to make something mediocre. Right? Like, nobody does that. We all want to create good work. And I know that we need to make space for ideas to be allowed to be shared and we need to then bring it back in later and see what's realistic. We need both of those things. And so we are going to intentionally create spaces for both of those parts of the process. We're going to have an idea development section of our brainstorm, of our slack, of our notion, whatever it is you're running. There's an idea development stage where we're just adding. We're. Yes, anding. It doesn't matter if it's in budget and timeline, if it's feasible if we have the tools, it's just the ideas. There are no bad ideas there. Then when that has grown to a significant place where we feel like we've got enough material to work with, then, my friends, we will move into the refining phase. And that's where we take a look at what we have. We pluck out the gems and we try to make the best of doable version of those ideas we have. And by kind of setting those expectations, you're doing a couple things. You're letting the creative folks who maybe weren't feeling comfortable sharing ideas before feel like, okay, there's a dedicated space where no one's going to be allowed to shoot it down. I can bring up those ideas. Right. And you're letting the folks who are very concerned, maybe it's legal, maybe it's the finance team who are like, this is going to get out of control. Maybe it's the brand team who's like, this is going to be rogue. Right. You're giving those folks the peace of mind of knowing there's a dedicated time for them to shine too. Do so. Setting expectations and just being open, like, this is our build time, this is our refined time, makes everybody feel like there's a moment for them to add value to the conversation and they won't have to jump ahead or jump the gun because they'll feel like they have their time to do what they're best at and that both of those things are incredibly valuable because they are.
- [16:25]
A
I absolutely love that. So what I'm hearing you say is like, hey, set the ground rules, basically, that we welcome this because we all want to improve and ultimately begin to think about, like, where these ideas can exist in an acceptable place. And I will just throw out there, there's a time and a place to give someone an idea. Right. If you want an idea to be accepted and you just, like, decide to cold call like the founder, there's a good chance you're going to get a rejection.
- [16:50]
B
Yeah, it's not going to go well.
- [16:51]
A
And I think that's part of setting the expectations, that there's a time and a place and a way to submit those ideas. Do you agree?
- [16:57]
B
Yeah, 100%. And what I would say, you know, in line with that is most organizations that I work with, and I would wager, like, most organizations in general do not have an explicit process for that. And if there's no explicit process, people are going to do whatever they think is best, and that's not going to be what you think is best. Right. So if there is no this is idea time, this is where we put our ideas, this is how we process ideas, then they're going to come from everywhere. You're going to get emails and texts and slack messages and skywriting and singing telegram, or you're going to have those people who are sending us a penny on PayPal just so we read the message. Like, things get out of hand when there's no set process. So creating that process is really a gift not only to your team, but to yourself, because you're going to understand where those are coming in and have expectations that everybody is on the same page.
- [17:43]
A
So I'm just going to throw out there, because I mentioned it earlier, that we have a little model we've come up with inside of Social Media examiner, which is the what, why, who model, and what is the idea in simple sentence or paragraph? Why? This is the most important part. That's where we want the mental bandwidth to go. Why is this idea important? And then the last is who? Whom will it impact? Who will need to be involved? Who are the who's? But I tell people, avoid the how weeds. Don't even go into the how side of it. What I tell everyone is the moment you start talking about how is you open yourself for criticism, you know, but if you talk about what it is at a very simple level, you talk about why and you talk about who that will give, at least at the executive level, someone to process. Okay, I'm not going to worry about the how. I want to buy into. Is the why actually accurate? And what's the impact on people? This is something we've been able to use for a while. I'm just curious what your thoughts are and then we can move on.
- [18:33]
B
It sounds really aligned. It sounds like almost, you know, different language. But what you've created is like a give me the basic idea, this is what I need to know. And we'll worry about how later. We'll worry about the budget, the timeline, about who's going to own it. That's a question for later. For now, let's look at the meat of this idea. Let's see, like, who does it impact? Why is it exciting? You know, we're going to value those things up front and invite people to share it. I think there's clearly some intention behind it. And that's the other thing I always share with people, is like, look, I'm sharing what I know has worked for my organizations, but you should have absolutely tweak it, you know, to fit your model. I'VE worked with one organization that they're entirely in house. They have no remote folks. And so the way they handle that is they have a physical space, they have a board that people put things up on when they have an idea, right? And there's like a little form and people write it and put it on the board. Like, if that works for you, awesome. If it needs to be a form submission because of the size of your organization, go for it. You know, if you just want people to text you their ideas because you're a small startup, go for it. Just find the way, the delivery method that works for you. But make sure that the priority is there's a way for people to share their ideas where they feel it's being heard and it's being valued. And then there's a separate time where those ideas are evaluated, analyzed, refined, and you can decide if it's worth moving forward.
- [19:50]
A
Now, as people are listening, they're probably like, okay, well, this doesn't just apply to content, this applies to everything. Right?
- [19:55]
B
Sure does.
- [19:56]
A
I mean, this model, we're looking at it through the frame of content because that's your domain expertise. But this is just as good of. Of a thing for a new feature and a product, or just as good as a. Something that you want to do for your staff, you know what I mean? To make a better experience for them. So this is kind of a universal concept, is that correct?
- [20:11]
B
Oh, totally. And if, I mean, if we want to get meta, like, you can apply this in any area of your life. You know, think about, like in your family, if, if that's something, you know, you and your partner, you and your roommates, like, one of you says, we should get a dog, and somebody's like, absolutely not. End of discussion. Like, that's not fun. People probably don't feel super heard. That's probably going to create some discord instead. If it's like, all right, well, tell me what you like about a dog. What are you looking for? You looking for a companion? Are you looking for. You want an excuse to get outside more, ask questions, be curious. And maybe what you decide is, okay, you thought you wanted a dog, but actually, let's set you up more play dates with the neighbors, because you just want to get outside and play more. And that's what the real casino just so you can apply this anywhere in your life. It's like, there's a time for big ideas and there's a time for refining, and if you're trying to do them at the same time, there's going to be conflict. Whether it's internal or external, you can't do both at the same time.
- [21:01]
A
Awesome. Okay, so there's two different kinds of thinking that you've come up with. We're going to reveal them one at a time. So let's start with the very first kind of thinking concept and let's define what the heck it is so everybody can wrap their brains around it.
- [21:15]
B
Yeah. So I'll be super clear. I'm not the creator of these types of thinking, but I am just talking about it in the context of what we're talking about here. But, but divergent thinking, that's that first type that, like big ideas thinking. This is where there are no bad ideas. We are not critiquing, we are adding, we are suggesting, we are building upon it. Right. This is what people think of when they think of a brainstorm where you're just throwing out ideas, you're building on each other. But we're not editing, we're not critiquing, we're not analyzing. This is all about filling the basket. We need a lot of ideas to be able to sort through, combine, and come up with something. So this is where we're adding.
- [21:52]
A
By the way, what's the value of this kind of thinking? Just so people understand it? Because this is. I feel like not everybody wants this all the time. Talk to me a little bit about that.
- [22:01]
B
I get that. Yeah. This is the growth that we were talking about. This is where disruption comes in. This is where innovation comes in. This is where you're going to get anything new, exciting, different. It's going to come from that build phase where you're allowed to let things grow. Coming back to our, like, landscaping example, again, if you want a cool tree or a flower, like, you can't be snipping it at the bottom. You got to let it overgrow a little bit and then prune it back. So this is that growth phase. This is where we're gathering ingredients to do something awesome. We may not use all of them. We may have too much of one thing or another, but you gotta have a pantry of ingredients to pull from if you're gonna make anything worth having. Right. So this is where we're building and letting all those ideas come in.
- [22:42]
A
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- [24:03]
B
Totally. Yeah. I mean, look, if your content, and again, we're talking about it in the context of content, but this can be applied anywhere. If things are boring, if you're doing this same thing over and over again, if you're not getting the results that you're hoping for, if everybody is disappointed in the outcome, there's probably a need to shake things up a little bit. Right. If you're feeling like stuff is really safe, no one's feeling challenged, no one's feeling fulfilled. It's very like bottom of the rung, minimum viable, whatever, minimum viable content, you're.
- [24:32]
A
Just dialing it in. You're not motivated at all. Right?
- [24:35]
B
Yeah, yeah, like that's a good sign. I mean, it's like I said, listen, there are some companies where again, if you're just trying to get your paycheck and you're going to build something else on the side, I can't tell you to go shake it up at work. Maybe you don't want to do that. But if that is the current feeling is like we're really not putting the effort in and, or we are putting effort in what we're not seeing good results, then that's probably a good time to take a step back and say, let's try to do this a little differently. Maybe we're not taking enough risk, maybe we're not, you know, trying enough new things and let's set up up a system where we can do some of that safely within some confines that make sense for our brand.
- [25:08]
A
Yeah. And I believe you have an industrial equipment example that maybe was a client or something like that that you were going to share?
- [25:14]
B
Yeah. Well, one of the things I run into is a lot of people think like, well, my brand, my company, my product, my topic, whatever is not sexy. And like, we can't do super fun, exciting things. So what are we going to brainstorm? So I'll just like to give this example. It's a industrial safety equipment. So they created latches and guards and locks and things that protect other equipment from doing the things that it's not supposed to do or protect us from ourselves doing dumb things that hurt us. Right. But very much in an industrial environment. Not direct to consumer, not fun in the air quotes, like conventional sense. Right. So I was talking with them about, like, okay, let's. Let's practice some of this divergent thinking. Let's talk about what kind of stuff might we create content about that. That could be one. What conditions could we create to capture some cool content? And one of them said, well, we have actually on our campus, on our company campus, we have beehives. So maybe we could do something fun around. Like the bees work together. And maybe that's about our teamwork. I don't know. I don't know if that's it. But, like, that's an idea. And so again, instead of cutting it off, it was like, cool. Yes. Tell me more. What else could we do? Like that. Is there inspiration from other animals we could take that are somehow relevant?
- [26:22]
A
Okay, wait, wait, let me pause for a second. Because most people are like, like, at this point, everybody who's listening is like, that's not a good idea. Okay, so that's. But I like what you're doing. Right. Okay. You're thinking about content ideas, and somebody says beehive, which seems to be the most random. Off.
- [26:38]
B
Yep.
- [26:38]
A
Thing. Right. But you recommended. Hey, let's go with it. Okay, Keep going. Because, like, most people are like, seriously, like, hopefully thinking like, I am like, yeah, like, that's a horrible idea. Next. You know what I mean? But clearly there's something. The story is going somewhere, so keep going.
- [26:54]
B
It does, right? And then so we continued that process. We were just adding. We got to a point where somebody on the team was like, you know what? We should get a Highland cow. You know those tiny cows that are, like really hairy and have the giant horns? Like, that was the idea, was maybe as a company, we should adopt a Highland cow. It can live on our campus. We can create content about the cow because we speak to farmers. So again, not the best idea. Like, we're probably not going to get a cow, right? But it allowed us to dream big. It allowed us to laugh, it allowed us to share good ideas, to share things that we might not have spoken up for otherwise, and allowed us to. To develop those ideas further. They did not, to my knowledge, adopt a Highland cow. Like, that was not the final idea, but it allowed them to build to a point where we surfaced things that were useful that we could take insights from and then take action on later.
- [27:40]
A
Interesting. Okay, so in this particular situation, because now we know that this industrial company deals with farm stuff, it makes a lot of sense that a cow and bees were involved and somehow, some way, some creative idea came out of this, and that's the key, right, is to allow idea to not be killed. So how do we do that? Any tips?
- [28:02]
B
So this is exactly what we were talking through before, right? Having that dedicated time, I set the expectation with this group where I said, okay, yes, tell me more about the bees. No, no, bad ideas. Keep going. Give me more. Right? Tell me about other animals. You know, who are some of your clients? Do they have animals? You know, we're just building and leading with curiosity to allow those things to surface. Now we have the ingredients. Then at a dedicated time, and usually you can tell when the energy starts to dip. When it's like, all right, we got to Highland cow. I got nothing left. Like, that's as far as it goes, right? When that energy starts to dip, that's when you can say, are there any more ideas, or are we ready to start refining some of this stuff? And usually since everyone has had a chance to say their piece, like, they're excited to say, yeah, let's see what we can make actually happen. Probably not all this stuff, but, like, what can we make work? So that's when you switch into that convergent thinking mode. So divergent, like to diverge, to grow apart. Big ideas and then converge. We're coming back together. We're bringing reality, budget, timeline, legal approval, all those things back into the room to see what kind of pruning we need to do on this pile of ideas to end up with something we can truly use. So in the case of our industrial friends, where it ended up is the cow. They weren't zoned for cows, I think, was the situation like, they couldn't get a cow on campus. Probably not the most appealing. They were able to do chickens. Chickens. They were able to do chickens, right? And so they were able to. In the area where they already had these bees working and making honey, now they had chickens. And they had eggs as well. Right. So now they're able to create more content around that. They have some equipment that protects the coops. Right. Like, they were able to create a reasonable version of that idea that they could execute on. That was within their budget, their timeline, their resources. And again, I know cows and chickens, but probably not in most of our budget and resources. But this is their company, their needs. Right, Right. When you do this, by allowing that growth phase, if we had not gotten to Highland Cow, we would not ultimately have refined to chickens. Right. If we had not gone beyond the bees, we would never have gotten to the chickens. So yours may not be a bees to. To chickens, to cows progression, but there's some version of that that if you're cutting it off at the bees, you're never going to get the chickens and the cows.
- [30:11]
A
Interesting. Okay, so let's dig in a little bit more on what is convergent thinking. And do we have to start with divergent thinking? Always in this case, like, help me understand that they're intertwined.
- [30:21]
B
Totally. Yeah. And so if you're doing the convergent thinking, you're trying to bring the budget, the reality into the room, that's the shutting down of the ideas. That's getting to the how too quickly. That's where you're starting to shut people off and make them less likely to share. So we absolutely have to do the divergent first. Let's grow and then refine. If you're doing just the convergent thinking up front, which is the problem a lot of us face, we're either trying to do them at the same time, or we're starting with all of our limitations. Means you don't have the room to grow, you can't go anywhere, and you end up staying exactly where you are, doing more of what you've always done. Right. So that divergent thinking has to come first. Let's gather all those big ideas and then we'll evaluate them after.
- [31:00]
A
Okay, let's now apply this to a different medium. Let's say you have one person coming to you with a big idea instead of a group of people. And maybe it was delivered over email or. Or in a little video or something like that.
- [31:14]
B
Sure.
- [31:14]
A
How can we take that big idea that was delivered and somehow work with that? What's your reaction to that?
- [31:22]
B
So I have found, you know, I'm stealing a quote from Phil Jones, who's my co author on Pruvit, that if you can't have a conversation in the same oxygen, you at least need to have it in the same moment. So by that I mean an email chain or Slack messages back and forth, you don't know what where they are, when they're receiving it, if they have the time to do it, to create that space again. If you can't do it face to face, you can't hop in a whiteboard room and jam out, pick up the phone or get on a video call and do it at the same time. So you can both be in that headspace together. Hey, I just got your email of this cool idea for the campaign next month. Talk to me about that. What are you thinking? Where'd this idea come from? Cool. Cool. Okay, so what were you picturing? What could this be like? Did you think through what it could look like? Just get curious and keep building that idea and then once you're ready, say cool. Do you feel like you gave me a good picture of everything that you wanted to share about this? This awesome. All right, so let's take a look at what we are working with in terms of time and budget. Let's see how much of that's possible. You know, I think a documentary, a feature length film is an incredible idea for Q2, but I don't think we actually have the budget for right now. So what if we did a two minute mini documentary? We could still use that same style, that same tone you talked about, but it's a little bit shorter, it's more in budget and our dev team, our production team can probably fit that into our shoot schedule. What do you think? You think we can execute a good amount of your ideas if we try a mini doc instead of a full feature film? You know, you find the shrunk version of whatever that is, that is doable in your budget, your timeline and whatever else.
- [32:57]
A
I know some people listening are like, melanie, I wish I had your brain because I couldn't do what you just did. So we need to unravel this a little bit. Okay. Because like, you know, you have everybody that has different gifts and skills, right?
- [33:11]
B
Totally.
- [33:11]
A
Like, as I'm thinking about this, here's how I would probably do it. We use a tool that allows us to record videos, you know, and send videos back and forth. So what I might do is encourage them to send me a video so that I can actually hear their excitement and allows a little bit more free form. And then I would probably send back another video if I wasn't available to talk to them. Because sometimes these meetings can take a lot of oxygen out of the room. And I might say, hey, you know, I'd love to hear more about this. Help me understand kind of why you're so excited about it. What do you think it can do for the company? And you get back another video and then let's say at this point you've heard a little bit more and you realize it's not going anywhere for you. You know what I mean? So, like, is it a no or is it a not yet or is it I'm not in a good headspace to process this. Like give people some frameworks of where they could go with something like this, you know?
- [33:57]
B
Yeah, it could be any of those things here. What I'll say a gentle invitation for you. If someone were to share an idea, they're being vulnerable. That's a vulnerable act to say, hey, I'm throwing this out there. You might think I'm dumb, you might think I should get fired. I'm going to be vulnerable and share this idea. It's really respectful. It's good for the culture to have a live interaction again, same moment, if not same oxygen. Because if the culture as it is currently, and it sounds like you're in the position like where it's not with you guys, but if you are in an organization where the culture doesn't necessarily encourage it right now, getting a video or an email or a slack message back that says, tell me why you think this is important for the company. Tell me why you. Like this can feel like you're being interrogated or you're being questioned. Right. If the intent may not be clear. So just throwing that out there, depending on your culture.
- [34:44]
A
Yeah. That's why I was thinking a video might be more better because then at least they can hear and see you. You know what I mean? If you're not. If you're not able to get on a call with them.
- [34:52]
B
Yeah. As close as you can get to live is always going to be like your best chance at being understood the way you want. You want to be from like a tone and culture perspective.
- [35:00]
A
Right.
- [35:00]
B
But look, not every idea is going to be good. I think that's why I recommend people have something called an idea parking lot somewhere to put ideas. And you could call it whatever you want. I just like parking lot because it's like there's excess space. It might be a Google Doc that people dump things into. It might be a notion. Whatever your systems are, find a place where, if it's not right now, because that may not be the right idea for right now. Maybe we can't do, I don't know what did I say? Like a mini documentary. Maybe we just can't do a documentary right now. Now. But if we put it in that doc six months from now when we do have time, or we get invited to do some big campaign or, you know, I don't know, now we're doing a Super bowl commercial, it's like, wait, remember the mini documentary? Like this is the perfect time, but you have to have it somewhere in the parking lot to be able to call on it later. So having a place where those ideas are saved somewhere, whatever that looks like for your organization, again makes people feel heard that if now is not the right time, at least it's saved. It's worth referring back to, it's worth considering in the future. And then look, nobody has to know whether you think that idea is ever going to make it out of the parking lot. The parking lot serves the purpose of making people feel heard as well as a repository for you to come back to.
- [36:06]
A
Okay, so let's presume that you and the other party actually kind of like the idea, but you got to sell it now to other people in the organization. Maybe you've got to sell it to your boss, to the founder, or to the head of another division or other divisions are involved and you've got to get their buy in on it because it's going to impact them. How do we go to that next step?
- [36:28]
B
It's a tough conversation, right? Ideally there's been some sort of conversation about being creativity first, being creatively led. My favorite recommendation, and honestly, this is more psychology than it is marketing. But find something that they are attached to in a positive way and relate it to that. So remember that awesome idea our competitor did that you thought was so cool? I would love to do more work like that. And in order to do that, here's what we did need to do. Or remember you said our goal for 2026 is you want us to get bigger market share and disrupt. Okay. So I think we have to try some new tactics in order to do that. Right. So framing it as like, you want this, you told me you wanted this and make it their idea in a way. Right. It tends to work really well. But the other thing I think is just you may not be able to get everybody to buy in right away. Any sort of change, especially if you're at a big organization or a legacy organization, like it's going to take time, it may not happen right away. And so I would just. Look, whatever little opportunity is within your power to try to shift that culture, if you are a leader. You're in a great position to be able to maybe run your brainstorms a little more intentionally with the the build phase. First that divergent thinking and then the very intentional convergent thinking after. You may have that power if you don't. My single biggest tip that can change the culture from inside out is to start blaming process instead of people. Blaming the process instead of the people. So by that I mean when things go wrong, when you don't hit the goal, when you don't reach benchmark for your content, when you're not growing at the rate you want, or your content didn't get the views you wanted, instead of blaming a person, blame the process. How can we allow more editing time so that we don't have a choppy experience for the users? Or how can we track our metrics better so we can create a better dashboard to optimize for next time? So instead of of Mike made a bad video and it's all Mike's fault and like now you're not going to be employee of the month, Mike, instead of dumping it all on a person, it's like, Mike, how can we work together to do better next time? Like, what can we change? Do you need more time? Do we need more tools? Do we need a better editor? Maybe we borrow an editor from another department. Right. If that's not your strength, working on improving the process instead of blaming the person just allows for a much better culture where people might feel more safe to take those risks.
- [38:47]
A
You know, it's interesting because I'm on both the receiving end and the giving end of ideas. And a lot of times I hear from people in my organization, we've tried that before and it didn't work. And I'm sure a lot of people are going to deal with that. Oh yeah, we tried that back in pre Covid and it was a big flop. Right. And I think what you're saying is, say maybe it's different now. Maybe we just didn't go about it the right way because there are people that have successfully done this. Right? Right.
- [39:15]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And instead of being like, we tried that and therefore we're never trying it again, what can we learn when we tried it last time? What. What was in our favor? We didn't have the same team we have now, or maybe we didn't have the right budget, what can we as a group we do differently in our process to help optimize our chance for success? And I think that goes a long way because again, the we tried that before is coming from a place of I'm scared to fail again.
- [39:41]
A
Right?
- [39:42]
B
Right. I can't approve you trying that thing because then I'm going to have to answer for why it didn't work again. Right. Or I'm going to have to explain why we didn't hit benchmark again, whatever the case may be. Right. Why we're not hitting our follower goal or whatever, you have to ease that tension and saying, look, I get it, I know it didn't work last time. Let's figure out why. What could we improve? What could we do better? What could we change about our process to optimize our chance for success?
- [40:06]
A
A couple of thoughts for those that work. For organizations where you have like a CEO or founder or somebody high up in the company, going back to company principles, mission, vision or expectations is really valuable. So for example, if there's like a vision that's been set by the founder or the executive or management team, reminding the person that this is our vision, this is where we're going, is very valuable. If there is some sort of new initiative, like for example, we're going to embrace AI, for example, right. Like we've decided as a company we're going to use AI to improve our work. And what you have is an idea that's fueled by AI. You can remind the person that this falls under our initiative, which is we are to use AI to improve our work. Right. All of a sudden what it does is it aligns their brain to the mission that came down from the top and now all of a sudden it opens things up. Curious what your thoughts are on that kind of stuff.
- [40:59]
B
Exactly. That's exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. Like find the anchor that's coming either from above. Right. Or from that person if it's their own ideas. Right. Like you said, our company mission is to make good products that help people. Well, I think that this product can really help people. So I think it's worth us taking a got because it's aligned with our mission. Right. Just instead of saying here's a risk I think we should take, right? It's like, hey, this is aligned with our mission. Taking this risk is aligned with what we said we do as a company and it's not always a risk. But just framing it in that way is like, this is something that you or we or all of us are focused on, are valuing our believe is important. Let's do it together. And again, I know that's like more psychology than it is Mark think, but.
- [41:41]
A
It Matters because it works.
- [41:43]
B
Does. It does. Right. And it's. It's about getting people on board with your messaging, which is ultimately what we're doing with marketing at the end of the day. Right. It's like, let's get people on board with this message.
- [41:52]
A
I've got a couple of words in my mind, mindset and beliefs. And again, I'm coming at this from a psychology perspective. I've had a lot of great folks on this show that have talked about a lot of stuff, but a lot of people either believe that if they make a mistake, they're going to get in trouble, or they believe that they don't have any margin for anything else because they're overworked. They don't necessarily embrace what's commonly referred to as the growth mindset, which is we can learn from everything that's happening, and it makes all sorts of things possible. When someone is listening is unfortunately either on the receiving end of a bad belief or is on the other end, like, we have that bad belief or we're dealing with someone who is just. Just not. It's got a very limited mindset on things outside of just finding something that you can align with. Are there any other little tips or tricks that you found that might be helpful to kind of get through in those kind of situations?
- [42:51]
B
Was it. I'm going to say a thing that I said before, but in a different way, and I don't know, I might hurt somebody's feelings. I'm just going to throw it out there. If somebody has a limited mindset, my question would be, be what's wrong with the process, not what's wrong with the person. Someone who has that mindset has been punished in the past. Someone who has that mindset has been embarrassed in front of their peers in the past. Somebody who has that mindset is afraid to take risks. What about our process makes them feel that way?
- [43:17]
A
What do you ask them? Hey, what's your biggest concern? Is that what we asked to unlock that?
- [43:21]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think it depends on the person, your relationship with them, how you can approach it. But I would be asking myself that question as a colleague or as a leader of like, okay, this person is clearly afraid to take risks. What about our process makes it such a hostile place to take a risk? Is it me? Is it my attitude? Do I not defend them when someone cuts their idea down? Am I as a leader not protecting this space to make people feel safe to share their ideas? I would be looking at what about our process and the way we Operate creates that feeling because the person is not the problem. Nobody wakes up and says, I want to create bad mediocre work today. People want to do good work like it's just human fulfillment. So what about our process doesn't allow them to do that or makes them afraid to do that because that's what really needs to change. You could lecture that person all day long. You could let them go, put them on a personal improvement plan. If the culture creates that feeling, the next person sitting in that seat's going to feel the same way.
- [44:13]
A
Folks, this is the social media marketing podcast and almost all of us identify as marketers. And marketing is a creative endeavor. And marketing requires new ideas. It just does. And we all are facing diminishing returns. And it's my hope that exploring this discussion today with Melanie has opened somebody like me or you, Melanie, or the listener to see, okay, this might be an unlock for me because I've been in a rut. I've been stuck. I haven't felt like I've had any options. I felt like Indiana Jones, you know, where like the walls are crushing it on me. And what do you just want to say to those people before we close out today?
- [44:51]
B
I mean, extending your exact metaphor there, like, the problem in that instance is not Indiana Jones, it's the walls. And how do we stop those walls from crushing in? That's really the key, I think, is when creativity cannot thrive. It is not a lack of creativity on your team's part. It is a lack of creative conditions. And you as a leader or even as an individual can make subtle changes like blaming process over people and separating out divergent and convergent superpowers on your team. You can do those things that create conditions where creativity thrives. You just have to do it with intention.
- [45:26]
A
Melanie Diesel. This has been a really fascinating dialogue. If people want to explore working with you, where do you want to send them? If they want to connect with you on the socials, what's the platform you recommend?
- [45:35]
B
Lucky for you, I am the only Melanie Diesel if you spell it the way that I do, which is D E Z I E L. So I'm search optimized and you'll find me on your network of Twitter choice. These days I'm spending lots of time on TikTok and LinkedIn where I am Melanie Diesel and Mel Diesel on TikTok. But you can find me anywhere. Head over to my website@melaniediesel.com that's where you can find all my social links. You can find information about my newsletters about my snail mail club where I mail you creative prompts once a month. There's all kinds of fun stuff happening over there@melaniediesel.com thank you so much Melanie.
- [46:08]
A
For coming on the show and sharing your information insights.
- [46:10]
B
Thanks for having me back.
- [46:11]
A
Hey, we talked about a lot and you might have missed some of it, but don't worry, we took all the notes for you over@social mediaexaminer.com 703 if you're new to the show, be sure to follow us. If you've been a longtime listener, would you give us a review on your platform of choice and let your friends know about this show? And do check out my other show, the AI Explored Podcast. This brings us to the end of the Social Media Marketing Podcast. I'm your host Michael Stelzner. I hope you make the best out of your day and may your marketing keep evolving. Catch you next time. The Social Media Marketing Podcast is a production of Social Media Examiner. What if you could get year round AI training? That's exactly what's waiting for you with our AI Business Society. To learn more, visit social mediaexaminer.com AI.