How to Use Disruptive Storytelling to Thrive as a Marketer

Summary

Podcast Summary: Social Media Marketing Podcast – "How to Use Disruptive Storytelling to Thrive as a Marketer"

Host: Michael Stelzner
Guest: Mark Schaefer, Futurist and Social Strategist
Release Date: March 27, 2025
Duration: Approximately 42 minutes
Source: Social Media Marketing Podcast Transcript

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1. Introduction

In this episode of the Social Media Marketing Podcast, host Michael Stelzner welcomes renowned marketing expert Mark Schaefer to discuss the pivotal role of disruptive storytelling in modern marketing. Mark, known for his insightful books such as Marketing Rebellion and Audacious: How Humans Win in an AI Marketing World, shares his expertise on how marketers can leverage storytelling to stand out in an increasingly competitive and AI-driven landscape.

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2. The Critical Role of Storytelling in Today's Marketing

Mark Schaefer emphasizes that in the era of AI-generated content, storytelling has become more crucial than ever. He uses a compelling analogy to illustrate this point:

Mark Schaefer [03:14]: "Creating content through AI is like bringing store-bought cookies to a bake sale."

This analogy underscores the importance of authentic, human-driven narratives over generic, AI-produced content. Mark argues that while AI can handle competent content creation, it lacks the unique human touch necessary to create memorable and impactful stories.

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3. The Impact of AI on Marketing and Storytelling

Mark discusses the dual nature of AI in marketing, highlighting both its potential and its challenges:

Mark Schaefer [08:52]: "AI is the most exciting thing and the most terrifying thing that's ever happened in my career."

He acknowledges that AI can unleash new levels of creativity and democratize content creation but also poses a threat to traditional marketing roles. Mark introduces his concept of Schaefer's Law, predicting that significant changes in marketing due to AI typically take about three years to materialize.

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4. Disruptive Storytelling: Key Elements

Mark outlines the three main pillars of disruptive storytelling, which form the backbone of his book Audacious:

a. What is Your Story? (Narrative)

A compelling narrative is essential for capturing attention. Mark shares an inspiring story from South by Southwest (SXSW) where a drone show created an unforgettable experience:

Mark Schaefer [05:33]: "These people did it. And I wondered, is there a pattern here? Is there a system?"

This led him to explore how stories that evoke strong emotions—such as anxiety, fear, or awe—are more memorable and shareable.

b. Where to Tell Your Story

Choosing unexpected platforms can amplify your message. Mark cites examples like Elf Cosmetics creating an experiential world in Roblox to engage younger audiences:

Mark Schaefer [25:03]: "Elf created a whole experiential world in Roblox...their CMO is not just disrupting stories, she's disrupting many of the foundational ideas of marketing."

c. Who Tells Your Story

Empowering customers and employees to share your narrative fosters genuine word-of-mouth marketing. Mark differentiates between traditional influencer marketing and authentic word-of-mouth strategies:

Mark Schaefer [34:00]: "Word of mouth is different from influencer marketing. You just put that story wherever they are. You fish where the fish are."

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5. Case Studies and Examples

Mark provides several real-world examples to illustrate the power of disruptive storytelling:

a. Giant Spoon and Taboo by Design

At SXSW, Mark observed Giant Spoon's innovative approach to storytelling through a memorable drone show. He delved into their strategies by collaborating with the agency, uncovering secrets that highlighted the importance of creating unmissable and emotionally charged narratives.

b. Liquid Death's Bold Campaigns

Liquid Death, a seemingly unconventional beverage company, uses edgy and anxiety-inducing advertising to stand out. One notable campaign featured children acting "drunk" at a party, challenging traditional marketing norms:

Mark Schaefer [17:12]: "Liquid Death is selling water in a can, but they market it like beer, creating a strong emotional impact that makes their content unforgettable."

c. Elf Cosmetics in Roblox

Elf Cosmetics leverages Roblox to create immersive experiences for young women, aligning their marketing strategies with their target audience's interests:

Mark Schaefer [25:20]: "Most of their customers are young women, especially preteens. By creating a presence in Roblox, they meet their customers where they are."

d. Litographs' Innovative Marketing

Litographs engages book lovers by sending temporary tattoos of popular book sentences, encouraging customers to share their unique stories:

Mark Schaefer [27:43]: "Customers put the tattoos on, take pictures, and send them back, effectively turning their bodies into interactive books."

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6. Word-of-Mouth Marketing vs. Influencer Marketing

Mark delves into the effectiveness of word-of-mouth marketing, citing research by Ed Keller that reveals 10% of the population are "super sharers" who can amplify a story by 630%. Unlike influencer marketing, which is often transactional, word-of-mouth relies on genuine, unsolicited recommendations:

Mark Schaefer [34:00]: "Word of mouth marketing is the purest, most trusted form of marketing. It's something AI cannot replicate."

He emphasizes that empowering customers and employees to authentically share stories leads to more sustainable and impactful marketing outcomes.

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7. Engaging Employees in Storytelling

Mark advocates for involving employees in storytelling without resorting to incentive-based programs, which he deems unsustainable. Instead, he suggests creating career development opportunities that encourage employees to become brand storytellers:

Mark Schaefer [35:24]: "We make it a career incentive for employees. We teach them storytelling skills, which makes it fun and beneficial for their personal growth."

He highlights Tractor Supply and Macy's as examples where employees organically drive marketing efforts through genuine enthusiasm and engagement.

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8. Innovating with Book Design: Mark's "Audacious"

Mark showcases his book Audacious: How Humans Win in an AI Marketing World as an embodiment of disruptive storytelling. The book features an innovative cover with a dynamic QR code that transforms into an augmented reality experience, offering readers a unique and interactive journey:

Mark Schaefer [39:46]: "When you scan the QR code, the book cover changes with abstract, colorful art informed by the stories within, creating a first-of-its-kind augmented reality experience."

This approach not only captivates readers but also exemplifies the principles of disruptive storytelling by merging traditional mediums with cutting-edge technology.

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9. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Mark Schaefer concludes by reiterating the importance of audacious and disruptive storytelling in the evolving marketing landscape. He encourages marketers to embrace bold strategies, leverage authentic narratives, and empower their communities to share their stories organically.

Mark Schaefer [11:57]: "If you're competent, you're ignorable. You’ve got to disrupt what you're doing and add some audacity to your work."

Michael Stelzner thanks Mark for his invaluable insights and encourages listeners to explore Mark's book and connect with him for further learning opportunities.

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Key Takeaways

• Authenticity Over Competence: In an AI-saturated environment, authentic, human-driven stories outperform generic, AI-generated content.
• Disruptive Storytelling Elements: Focus on what your story is, where you tell it, and who tells it to ensure it stands out.
• Leverage Word-of-Mouth: Genuine, unsolicited recommendations from super sharers are more impactful than traditional influencer marketing.
• Empower Employees and Customers: Encourage organic storytelling by providing tools and opportunities without relying on incentives.
• Innovate with Technology: Integrate advanced technologies like augmented reality to create memorable and interactive marketing experiences.

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Notable Quotes:

• Mark Schaefer [03:14]: "Creating content through AI is like bringing store-bought cookies to a bake sale."
• Mark Schaefer [08:52]: "AI is the most exciting thing and the most terrifying thing that's ever happened in my career."
• Mark Schaefer [17:12]: "Liquid Death is selling water in a can, but they market it like beer, creating a strong emotional impact that makes their content unforgettable."
• Mark Schaefer [34:00]: "Word of mouth marketing is the purest, most trusted form of marketing. It's something AI cannot replicate."
• Mark Schaefer [39:46]: "It's the first time anybody has ever done this [dynamic QR code on book cover]."

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Final Notes:

This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of how disruptive storytelling can empower marketers to navigate the complexities of the modern landscape, especially amidst rapid advancements in AI. Mark Schaefer's insights and real-world examples offer actionable strategies for creating memorable and impactful marketing narratives.

Transcript

[Michael Stelzner]

Ever wonder what happens when you bring together the world's top marketers under one roof? Social Media Marketing World 2025 isn't just another conference. It's where career defining connections happen over coffee, where you suddenly form a cohesive strategy, and where you'll meet your next client, mentor or business partner. As attendee Shauna Allen put it perfectly, I've learned more that directly helps our bottom line at Social Media Marketing World than any other event I attend. From cutting edge AI applications to Instagram strategies that actually work in 2025, this is the experience marketers call life changing. Join us on March 30th in beautiful San Diego. Physical and virtual tickets are still available at social media marketing world.info welcome to the Social Media Marketing Podcast, helping you navigate the social media jungle. And now, here is your host, Michael Stelzner. Hello, hello, hello. Thank you so much for joining me for the Social Media Marketing podcast brought to you by Social Media Examiner. I'm your host, Michael Stelzner, and this is the podcast for marketers and business owners who want more exposure, leads and sales. Today I'm going to be joined by Mark Schaefer and we're going to explore the concept of disruptive storytelling. If you feel like you're in a world of hurt right now and your content is or your marketing is just not standing out, well, today you're going to find some inspiration. By the way, if you're new to this podcast, be sure to follow the show. We've got some amazing guests coming your way. Let's transition over to this week's interview with Mark Schaefer, helping you to simplify your social safari. Here is this week's expert guide. Today, I am very excited to be joined by Mark Schaefer. If you don't know who Mark is, you gotta know Mark. He is a futurist and social strategist. He's author of multiple books, including Marketing Rebellion, belonging to the brand social media explained 3.0. And his newest book is called Audacious How Humans Win in an AI Marketing World. He's also host of the Marketing Companion show. Mark, welcome back. How you doing?

[Mark Schaefer]

I'm great. I'm great. Loving life here in Tennessee just up the road from you.

[Michael Stelzner]

Absolutely. And it's super cool to have you back. Today Mark and I are going to explore how to embrace disruptive storytelling so you can thrive in this changing world. And we are in a changing world for sure right now. I talk to marketers all the time. You talk to marketers all the time. And there's a lot of disruption going on. Before we even get into any of that, let's talk about storytelling. Right? Because why now is storytelling perhaps critical? You know, what about today makes storytelling so important?

[Mark Schaefer]

You know, I heard a great analogy from a friend the other day. They said creating content through AI is like bringing store bought cookies to a bake sale. I just thought that was a beautiful analogy.

[Michael Stelzner]

Oh, there you go.

[Mark Schaefer]

So we are in a time Mike, which is really sort of an existential reflection for marketers. If you're immersed in AI, like I know you and I are, you've got to know that AI is nipping at the heels of our skill sets. Nipping at the heels of our careers, perhaps. And we've got to figure out where do we fit. And so I'm not going to sugarcoat things. You know, if you're creating stories and content that's competent, you're vulnerable. I mean, competent is ignorable content. AI is competent. AI is more than competent in many cases. So I think the challenge is we've got to figure out the spaces where humans are going to be able to thrive in this environment. And I think one of the most important areas, and the area that I explore in my new book is the story is having the power to bring your unique perspective, your unique humanity to your narrative.

[Michael Stelzner]

Okay. So elaborate a little bit more on the storytelling side of it. I know that you have a story to tell us about how this whole thing came about. So south by Southwest, right? Tell me what happened there.

[Mark Schaefer]

Yeah, I never have a plan to write a book. I, you know, you and I, we've had this great conversation together many times over the years. And people must think I have a strategy to always write books, but I don't. I only write a book when I see a problem in the world that I need to figure out. And if I can figure out, that's going to make a good book to help people. And a few years ago, I was at south by Southwest and I was having dinner with a couple of friends, and all of a sudden, people in the restaurant stood up and quietly started to leave the restaurant. It was surreal. It was like a Stephen King movie. Now my back was to the door, so I had to turn around and look out the window. What is going on? These people are standing out on the sidewalk. So my two friends and I, we leave our hot food and cold cocktails and we go stand on the street and we look up in the sky and there's a drone show.

[Michael Stelzner]

Is it daytime or nighttime? It's gotta be nighttime.

[Mark Schaefer]

It was a night. It was a night. Yeah, it was. It was a nice, dark sky. And, you know, today we've seen drone shows maybe at a music festival or a sporting event, but like three or four years ago, this is the first time we ever saw anything like this. And it was an animation for a new television series. And at the end of the story, in the sky, there was a QR code. Everybody had their phones and they clicked the QR code and went to a movie trailer for this show. Now, I became obsessed with this because I played this little mind game. Mike. If someone came to me and said, could you create a story so great people would leave their food in a restaurant to go see it? Not just see it, but record it and share it with everyone in their social media world, could I do it? The answer is no, I could not. And I thought, is there a clue here? This is how you stand out in a busy world. And this is what we all want to do. Every person listening today or watching the video. We want to be seen, we want to be heard. We want to be discovered. And it's harder and harder to become the signal against the noise. And these people did it. And I wondered, is there a pattern here? Is there a system? How did they come up with this? Is there something we could learn that every business could benefit from? So I found out who did it. It was an agency. I actually sort of had some relationships there. It was a giant spoon. I said, look, I want to come to your office in New York. I want to sit in your meetings. I want you to spill all your secrets. I want to see how you do this. And I'm going to put all your secrets in a book. They said, absolutely. And that began my journey, really?

[Michael Stelzner]

Okay. They were cool with it.

[Mark Schaefer]

They were cool with it. And people have read the book and they see the secrets in the book. And one person who read the book wrote me. She said, I want to hug these people. Because everybody in the book opened up to me. And because Giant Spoon is a very well known agency, they were recently named one of the top creative companies in the world. Not just ad agencies, any company in the world. I think they were number 13 in the world. And now I'm saying, hey, I want to meet these people. I want to meet these people. They said, we'll make the introductions for you. It was so energizing for me because I got into this whole new world talking to some of the greatest creative geniuses in the world, telling us, how do we Stand out in this world.

[Michael Stelzner]

Love it. We're going to dig in on this a little bit more, but before we do, I want to ask you about AI and marketing. I know we've talked about it a little bit, and you coined the phrase that a lot of us have used, content shock. And now we obviously are in a world where content shock is probably like an understatement. Where do you feel like AI and marketing? Let's just riff a little bit on your thoughts, on the threat or the opportunity, however you choose to come at it.

[Mark Schaefer]

Well, I mean, like just about everyone, when I think about AI, it's the most exciting thing and the most terrifying thing that's ever happened in my career. Exciting because it unleashes new levels of creativity. It lets people who aren't artists become artists and people who aren't writers become writers. And, you know, people who have different disabilities all of a sudden show up in new, bold, exciting ways. What a magical time. It's just a magical time, and we all need to embrace it. Even if it seems weird, even if it seems scary. You cannot put your head in the sand. You have to embrace it and experiment with it every single day. And you know what? It's coming whether we want it or not, because it's already being integrated into all the tools that we use. You name it, whether it's Canva or Google product or a Microsoft product, it's there. Now. The scary part is, I think it was about six months ago Sam Altman, in sort of honest Moment, said on a podcast, oh, well, you know, in about a year or So, I think AI will rapidly and easily replace 98% of all advertising and marketing jobs.

[Michael Stelzner]

And he said it for free. And he said for free. He had it for free.

[Mark Schaefer]

Yeah. For almost no money. For almost no money. Now I pay attention to really knows AI, but I really know marketing, and I also really know business culture. And I know every time we think everything is there, everything's going to change. Guess what? It takes three years. It does. I call it Schaeffer's Law. You could test me on this. We'll come back in three years and you'll say, you're right, it took three years.

[Michael Stelzner]

But the challenge that I hear you say is it's coming. And. And Sam knows things he's not showing us. Right. Obviously.

[Mark Schaefer]

Yeah. But the other thing is, I think you also have to be have some critical thinking here about what's Sam's view of the marketing world.

[Michael Stelzner]

Correct.

[Mark Schaefer]

It's formulaic. Right. It's media Buying, you know, it's all that stuff that's a repeatable pattern. But there's a lot of marketing that's not a repeatable pattern. It's personality, it's story, it's instinct. So this is where I dive in. The book is where are the places that are uniquely human that we can own? And I think that's the power of the book. That's why this is a book of hope. It's not sugarcoating anything. I'm not saying Kumbaya, everything's going to be great. I'm saying if you're competent. Competent is ignorable. You cannot just be competent and win in this world. You've got to disrupt what you're doing. You've got to somehow get rid of that fear and add some audacity to your work.

[Michael Stelzner]

I'm with you 100%. That's the whole reason I started my other show. AI explored because we saw the same thing early in social media, right, Mark? I mean, everybody was like, social media is not going to be a thing, it's never going to matter.

[Mark Schaefer]

Very similar pattern, right?

[Michael Stelzner]

And we saw the same thing when the Internet came around. Everybody's like, oh, it's not going to disrupt traditional business. Of course, we know most jobs today are Internet enabled jobs now as a result of it, right? So I'm with you. It's going to be a threat and an opportunity and I'm more of the optimist than I am the pessimist on this. So get into stories and disruptive stories in particular. When we were prepping for this call, the beginning stages of telling a good story, you said narrative was really important. And what I want to do is unpack the importance of narrative and kind of the stories to help people understand what you mean by that.

[Mark Schaefer]

Okay, so this was such a revelation to me as I went to Giant Spoon. I interviewed the co founder of Mischief, which is the hottest agency in the world right now. I sat down and interviewed Michael Kravica, the king of viral video. I have profiles of Liquid Death, of Elf Cosmetics, of some of the most disruptive companies. And I found there is a pattern, there is actually a system. And so that is the system that I, that I put into the book. And it's easy to grasp, it's easy to understand. There's only three ideas and it's this. So what is your story? It's your narrative. It's where you tell the story and it's who tells the story. And if you disrupt one of those elements, then you're on the path to audacity. You're on the path of doing something new and different for your industry. So those are the three main buckets of the book. I talk about other things like using AI measurement, the role of culture in your company, and the narrative. But the three main buckets are we have to disrupt the story, where the story is told, or who tells a story. So it's very, very easy. Then I've got case studies for all of those with lots of practical tips.

[Michael Stelzner]

Let's talk about narrative. What do you mean by narrative? And what are some tips that you can give us on how to tell a better story?

[Mark Schaefer]

One of my favorite stories in the book, which really kind of opened my eyes to this, I went to this international conference, and there were these two guys from Australia standing up on the stage, Andrew and James McKinnon. They're brothers, and they have an agency in Melbourne called Taboo. Their presentation was called Taboo by Design. I thought, well, that's interesting. So Andrew starts off his talk by saying, well, today we want to make sure you remember us. And so anybody, anytime someone leaves the room, my brother and I are going to take off a piece of our clothing. Now, this rumble goes through the room. Like, what did he say? And he said, well, I know this is really unusual, and everyone we've talked to has told us this is an extremely bad idea, but I would rather be humiliated today than be forgotten. Now, I started to take this personally, thinking, what if I have to go to the bathroom? I don't want to start this avalanche, right? Sure enough, they gave this fantastic speech about pressing into taboos, like breaking bad rules for good reasons, breaking industry norms, that. Because that's the way we've always done it. And sure enough, at the end of the talk, they're standing on their stage in their underwear with the name of their company across their undershirts. Now, I was captivated by this. I went up, took a picture of them in their underwear and contacted them at the event. They said, oh, let's have breakfast tomorrow morning. We had a long breakfast, got to know each other, and we've been, like, collaborating now. And now they're in the book. What they were demonstrating was making people anxious. So I know you. You know the book Contagious by Juna Berger. Great research, great book. And one of the things Jonah says, there's the stories that are remembered, the stories that go viral have a strong emotional impact. It's joy, it's happiness, it's awe, it's anxiety, it's Fear. Now, wait a minute. In social media marketing, we're all about the happy. But do we ever think about anxiety? Do we ever think about fear? So think about what's happening with Liquid Death. Okay? Here's the number one rule I learned in marketing school. Never associate your product with death. Here's the fastest growing beverage in the world. They call themselves Death. Their company mascot is called Murderman. I encourage anyone, especially if you're outside the US because I think this product is only in the US right now. Go to YouTube and look at some of their commercials and you'll go, oh, my gosh.

[Michael Stelzner]

Well, and tell everybody what it is. For those that don't know what it is, because you know it's not.

[Mark Schaefer]

It's just water. Yeah, it's just water in a can.

[Michael Stelzner]

Yeah.

[Mark Schaefer]

Yeah. And one of their latest commercials, they've got these children drinking Liquid Death, and they're acting like they're drunk at a party, these little kids. And at the end of the commercial, the mother who's pregnant is just standing there and she has this happy look on her face. She's holding Liquid Death and says, don't worry, it's just water. But the kids think they're cool because it looks like it's beer. Now, what's happening with the McKinnon brothers? They're making us feel anxiety because we'll remember that. Think about some time when you couldn't find your car at the garage at the airport. You probably can remember that time, but you don't remember the hundreds of times you did find it. So it's anxiety that gets internalized. That's what Taboo is trying to push. That's what Liquid Death is certainly trying to do. And I think if you look at what Nutter Butter has been doing on TikTok, that's right out of the audacious playbook. They're selling cookies, basically creating horror movies on TikTok. I mean, it's just completely, like, mind blowing what they're doing. And guess what? Their cookie sales have quadrupled. This is a brand that meant nothing to anybody 12 months ago. And they've just disrupted their narrative so dramatically, it demands attention and it's showing up in their sales. So that's what I mean about breaking bad rules for good reasons. Pushing taboos, pushing norms, just doing something different than what's average in your industry.

[Michael Stelzner]

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[Mark Schaefer]

Huge issue, Huge issue. I've got an entire chapter in the book. It's near the end of the book. It's called this is the most important chapter in the book. For this very reason, right? Because the whole book, I'm saying, you've got to be bold, you've got to be audacious. And then by the end of the book, people are saying, yes, I'm in, but how do I do this and not get fired? Culture is a big part of it. So what I've done is I've interviewed people who have worked in traditional companies and agencies. I interview people who are running businesses and agencies that are trying to change the culture. And I interview even like freelancers who have to convince a client to try something new. And so there are strategies. There are strategies. And the thing, as I look back at my career, I was always pushing the edges, I was always experimenting. I was always like forcing people to look at things in a new way. And the two most effective strategies I ever used is, number one is make your boss afraid.

[Michael Stelzner]

Okay.

[Mark Schaefer]

What I mean by that is hopefully you work in a company where people are honest and they're well meaning and they're not mean and manipulative, but if they're honest and well meaning, they want to adjust. And if they learn that they're vulnerable to the way the world is. And if you're average, you certainly are. If you're not responding with to AI, you certainly are. And so how do you create this anxiety to say to go to step two? And step two is let's try a pilot.

[Michael Stelzner]

There you go. Experiment, right?

[Mark Schaefer]

Let's do an experiment. Now what I Found in my life is almost nobody can say no to a six month pilot program. And here's the good news. Because of the Internet and the technology we have with AI, we can do pilots for almost nothing. You know, it's not like you've got to spend a lot of money on R and D to create something in your basement. You can do very great experiments for almost no time, almost no money. And it's just harder and harder to say no to experiments. And then, you know, the other thing is if you have an experiment that runs six months, about 50% of the time, at the end of that six months, your boss is gone anyway, you got a new boss. So they didn't, they didn't know it was an experiment. So it just becomes a thing.

[Michael Stelzner]

Okay, all right. So you don't have to be taboo, but it's, it's definitely a way to stand out, right? I mean, like, there's other aspects to this, I would imagine. Really good storytelling is kind of the key, but you have to be different is really what I'm hearing you say, right?

[Mark Schaefer]

You do. And then it kind of moves into. Like I said, there's literally hundreds of ideas and hundreds of examples. I was very careful to include small businesses, startups, nonprofits. So there's lots of different examples. Then you know, the next big bucket is disrupting, where you tell the story. So this is like showing up in an unexpected place. And I think a really cool story from this section of the book is Elf Cosmetics. Elf. Elf stands for Eyes, Lips, Face. Not many people know this, but for the last five years, they've been the fastest growing stock on the New York Stock Exchange. Not Nvidia, not Apple, Elf. So their CMO is not just disrupting stories, she's disrupting many of the foundational ideas of marketing. And one of her philosophies is lean into the signals. So one of the hurdles, I think in marketing today is we're obsessed with optimization. We're obsessed with engagement and tracking web visits and improving our SEO. And that's all good. There's a place for that. But that sort of data and that sort of research is available to everyone. It's just everybody's chasing the same keywords, everyone's putting out the same types of content. What Elf is doing is they're really studying where are their customers showing up, how are they acting differently? And an example is here we have Elf cosmetics. They created a whole experiential world in Roblox. Now if you think about cosmetics, what do they do? They Take out an ad in Vogue magazine. That's what cosmetics does.

[Michael Stelzner]

How can you even show cosmetics in Roblox? They're just squares, right?

[Mark Schaefer]

Well, they have a Roblox world.

[Michael Stelzner]

Oh, I see. Okay.

[Mark Schaefer]

Where people enjoy Elf cosmetics. And the reason is most of their customers are, you know, generally young women.

[Michael Stelzner]

Got it.

[Mark Schaefer]

And young women are in Roblox and the preteens especially. That's the next generation of customers. Now they're leaning into the signals. And this is a huge opportunity, I think, is to look up. You'll look up from the daily spreadsheets and the daily dashboards and really study. Go out and talk to your customers, interview your customers, study your customers and see what, what is different, how are they changing? Where are they showing up? What do they really enjoy? You know, Another example of leaning into signals is young women. What do they love? You know, most of all? Music videos. Taylor Swift. So they created a music video in 2020, I think it was 2023. They had the all time greatest video on TikTok. It created 5 million challenge videos, billions of views. It even like ranked on Spotify the song. So I mean, if our customers are in music, we're going to be in music. So lean into the signals. Tell the story in a new and unexpected place. Now you might think, well, I don't have the money for that. But you don't need money. And sometimes money ruins everything. It's a bane to creativity sometimes. A really cool example from the book is a company called Litographs. Litographs is a company that puts the entire text of a popular book on a T shirt or a blanket or something like that. So it could be like Alice in Wonderland. So what they did for their fans is they created temporary tattoos of every sentence in a popular book and sent them to their fans.

[Michael Stelzner]

How can they do that on a tattoo? I mean, it must be very small, temporary.

[Mark Schaefer]

It's like a thing you just rub on.

[Michael Stelzner]

But they got the whole book on a tattoo?

[Mark Schaefer]

No, each sentence.

[Michael Stelzner]

Oh, okay.

[Mark Schaefer]

Each sentence of the book. So every tattoo is different. Oh, they sent them to their fans. The fans put the tattoo, took a picture, sent it back to Ludographs so you can read the whole book on body parts.

[Michael Stelzner]

Oh, that's unusual.

[Mark Schaefer]

Take how many thousands of customers, book lovers. They engaged in this fun project for pennies.

[Michael Stelzner]

So wait, so just so I'm clear, what does the company sell? What does little graph sell?

[Mark Schaefer]

So let's say your favorite book is Alice in Wonderland. You can buy a shirt that has the whole Book.

[Michael Stelzner]

Oh, so they sell clothing.

[Mark Schaefer]

Okay, clothing, blankets, merchandise, mugs, whatever. Anything you can print the words of a book on. That's what they sell for book lovers.

[Michael Stelzner]

How did they get the tattoos out to their customers? Do you have any sense of how that happened?

[Mark Schaefer]

Well, they just engaged them in their community and said who's in and what they've done. Now, Mike, I think they're up to 10 or 11 different books. So every time they want to promote a new book, everybody's ready because everybody loves this and that. You know, they'll put the tattoo on the neck, on the chest, wherever. And so now my body is on this website.

[Michael Stelzner]

So do they make a video out of it? How are they actually using it in their.

[Mark Schaefer]

I don't think they made a video, but they just. They put the pictures consecutively.

[Michael Stelzner]

Oh, so you can read it. Got it.

[Mark Schaefer]

Okay, read the book.

[Michael Stelzner]

And they're on. Obviously different color skins and stuff to kind of show the diversity of all the audience. Yeah, very interesting.

[Mark Schaefer]

Different color skin, different body parts.

[Michael Stelzner]

There you go. So how did that help them? Do you have any sense of what happened? I mean, did that help spur sales?

[Mark Schaefer]

You know, I don't know. I honestly don't know that because it's a private company and they wouldn't reveal something like that.

[Michael Stelzner]

Got it.

[Mark Schaefer]

But you know, what it did for them is it helped the customer tell the story. So first of all, it disrupted the story in a dramatic way by telling a story in a different and unexpected place, but it also engages the customers.

[Michael Stelzner]

I'm having a flashback and it might have been you or David Mirren Scott where he had people, he sent books to him and he had them take pictures holding the book in the most strangest locations in the world. And I don't know if the book was about going to unusual locations, but is this the kind of example or is that not really the kind of example?

[Mark Schaefer]

Yeah, I think it's the same because what we need to do is nobody believes our advertising if they even see it, because we live in a streaming economy. You know, we spend extra money on Netflix and Disney plus so we don't have to watch ads. And we spend more money on Spotify, so we don't have to listen to ads and we listen to audiobooks and you know, we're living in a virtually ad free world other than maybe news and sporting events. And, you know, traditional advertising is becoming less and less relevant and it's not believed anyway. So what we need to do instead of us beating our chest and telling the story we need to do something so interesting, so remarkable, so worthy that our customers can't wait to tell the story for us. Because we believe each other. Nielsen had this famous study a few years ago. 92% of adults will believe a stranger telling them something. But before they'll believe an ad, we believe our friends, our family, we believe influencers, we believe reviews, we believe testimonies before, we'll believe ads. Now here we have lidograph saying, hey, customers, let's get involved. Now the customers are saying, look at this. This is this awesome company and I get to be part of it. Look at my arm. I have my favorite quote from, you know, whatever book, and let's put it on Instagram and have some fun with it and come to the website. You could see the whole book. So, I mean, the marketing mindset today is really entering that space where we do something so cool that the customers tell the story for us. Instead of holding the mic, we kind of write a script, this cool story, and then we hand the mic to the customers, say, you take it away. That is the most effective marketing today. And by the way, come together with this theme of AI. That's something AI cannot touch. We own word of mouth marketing. Humans own word of mouth marketing. It is the purest, most trusted, unadulterated form of marketing that there is.

[Michael Stelzner]

Well, and the oldest, too. It's been around forever, right?

[Mark Schaefer]

It's been around forever, but it's an afterthought for most marketers. How many people have word of mouth marketing in their marketing budget? Almost nobody.

[Michael Stelzner]

Okay, so here's what we've learned so far. First of all, you got to have a good story to tell. And ideally, the story should have some sort of emotional trigger and taboos. We explored that. Then we talked about where to tell the story and where could be a virtual world like we talked about with Roblox.

[Mark Schaefer]

Could be the side of a building, it could be a sidewalk.

[Michael Stelzner]

Yeah. We had Adley Kinsley on the show and she talked about how she was making a muffin mix in the aisle of a grocery store. So it was a really unusual location where she was doing her short form videos. Literally, she grabbed a bowl, grabbed some eggs, and did the whole thing. Literally a no bake thing in the aisle. Right. So that's just like a really unusual location.

[Mark Schaefer]

I love it.

[Michael Stelzner]

Right? Yeah. So the idea that you can think a little bit out of the box as far as where you do something, I love that. And then the who you really talked about the importance of customers. I would love you to also talk about employees and creators and just any thoughts on like getting these people involved?

[Mark Schaefer]

Yeah, so that's the third idea is that, you know, we just have to get out of this, this norm that, you know, we're the ones that own the message. We're the ones that control the message. So this section is broken up into a couple different parts. And I start with the math behind word of mouth marketing and why it's different from influencer marketing. And the key idea is that there was research about 10 years ago that unlocked the, I think the key to how word of mouth marketing works. And this is a researcher, very famous researcher named Ed Keller. And what he discovered is that if you create that story that we've been talking about, you create some cool, unmissable, disruptive story in an amazing place. 10% of the population, across every culture in the world has a personality that is a super sharer. Now this is different than an influencer. An influencer self identifies. You give them the story, maybe you make a deal with them and they share it. But for word of mouth marketing, you just put that story wherever they are. You fish where the fish are, 10% will pick it up, tell the story, share the story. And once that starts to go, a story could be amplified 630%. So this was sort of a breakthrough idea that helps you start to think about, okay, how does this really work? Where do we really find the value? How do we start to activate this thing? And the idea is to put the story in the hands of the customer or get someone else to tell the story. As you mentioned in the book, I also talk about employees. And for the record, I do not favor at all incentive programs to get employees to tell your story. I don't think that's sustainable. I don't think it's fair. I don't think it's effective. The programs I've worked on with companies, we actually make it like a career incentive for employees. We're teaching them a new skill. I worked with a company in Texas where they actually train their hourly employees to tell stories on Instagram and on.

[Michael Stelzner]

TikTok about the work that they're doing. Basically about the work that they're doing.

[Mark Schaefer]

And what they like. You know, it could be about anything. And so we made it a club. And every month we had a social media marketing club and we learned about storytelling. How do you build an audience? What are the legal things? And then as people started having fun with it and getting a response on social media, other people wanted to join because it's fun and these people are getting a benefit from it. You know, these are people who are, you know, mixing things in a vat and they're becoming Instagram stars. That is the better way to do it. You know, Another case study in the book is right down the road from you, Tractor Supply. Tractor Supply is based in the Nashville area and they started Instagram TikTok campaign run by their employees and they'll bring in cameras and they've told the employees, just talk to us like you would talk to your customers. And they light up because they're so excited about the things in the store and the new things that are coming there. Macy's retail, Macy's department stores, same thing. Almost all of their marketing is done by their employees who, who work in the departments. And we're going to love that and embrace that and listen and believe that more than we're ever going to listen to an ad on tv.

[Michael Stelzner]

What about yeti? You told me some story about yeti. What's the deal with them?

[Mark Schaefer]

Well, we know YETI now, especially in America. It's become a big, it's like a.

[Michael Stelzner]

Cooler and water bottle.

[Mark Schaefer]

But you know, you think about, I don't know, I think it was seven or eight years ago and I started seeing people wearing baseball caps and T shirts that said Yeti. And I thought, wait a minute, isn't that an ice cooler?

[Michael Stelzner]

Yeah.

[Mark Schaefer]

Why would you wear a shirt promoting an ice cooler? Well, the truth is, at least for the first five years of that company, they didn't spend one dime on advertising. It was all word of mouth marketing, 100%. They connected with fishing guides, hiking guides, hunting guides, anyone who's sort of like leading people into the outdoors.

[Michael Stelzner]

Do they give them free merchandise? Is that the idea?

[Mark Schaefer]

They would give them merchandise, but more important, they told them the stories and explained why you'd pay $400 for an ice cooler. Right. So it wasn't just a piece of merchandise. They told them the stories because these people were in the 10% that love to tell these stories. So then what happens? They lead some trail group. 10% of those people start buying YETI and telling everybody about it. And it spreads and spreads and spreads. This is a company built 100% on community and word of mouth marketing because, you know, they didn't have a lot of money, they didn't have a lot of startup and little known fact, very popular drink in many parts of the world right now, Red Bull. Same way, early times in the company, it was all built on word of mouth marketing.

[Michael Stelzner]

Okay, so I want to talk about the front of your book because you've done something rather unusual. For those that are watching the video, they can see your book behind your head there. It's up on the shelf behind you. Why don't you explain to the audio viewers what the heck you've done?

[Mark Schaefer]

By golly, if you write a book called Audacious, it better be Audacious. You know, we had a brainstorming session trying to think, you know, what can you do? And it's so limited because the publishing industry is the publishing industry. They've been making books for 200 years the same way. And you can't spend a lot of money because the profit margin on books is so low. So what we did is we created a QR code that took up the whole cover of the book. I thought, all right, now what do we do with it? Where would people go? And we thought, well, maybe it leads to a new world. Maybe it leads to a quest. Well, that was too complicated. So then we thought, what if this is a book cover that's never the same twice? It's an infinity cover. So what we did is we took the book, uploaded it to AI, and we also uploaded some art samples so that it would give a consistent sort of tone and color palette that kind of goes with the colors.

[Michael Stelzner]

Yeah. For those that aren't seeing the book, it's gradient orange to red, and it's got white text. It says Audacious, and it's got a massive white QR code. So what happens when you scan that sucker?

[Mark Schaefer]

All right, so then when you hold your phone up to this and you scan the QR code and you line it up with the book, the book cover changes. There's abstract, colorful art that is informed by the stories in the book, and it changes and changes and changes and changes. And every time you do it, you're going to see new images. So it's the first in the world. It's the first time anybody has ever done this. And it took us about six months to figure out how to do it, but we did it, and it's a lot of fun. And in some of the people who are buying the book, Mike, are even saying, my children love this. It's kind of like a little movie or video game on the COVID of the book.

[Michael Stelzner]

Is it using, like. I know when Zach King wrote his book, he had QR codes inside the book that would animate, like, some of the stories in the book. But is this actually, like, can you see through your camera? And it's kind of three dimensional or is it more like. Oh, really? Okay, so you can see the book.

[Mark Schaefer]

It's an augmented reality experience.

[Michael Stelzner]

Interesting.

[Mark Schaefer]

It overlays the book, even the spine of the book, and you can walk around and it conforms to the book.

[Michael Stelzner]

Wow. That's crazy.

[Mark Schaefer]

It's crazy.

[Michael Stelzner]

All right, Mark. Well, first of all, thank you for being audacious and exploring and having the willingness to go out and talk to all these awesome companies to share all these amazing stories. I know you're going to be in San Diego at Social Media Marketing World and folks that are going to be there, be sure to come up and say hello to Mark. If people want to get the book, I'm assuming they can get the book anywhere. But is there somewhere you want to send them? And if they want to work with you or connect with you on the socials, where do you want them to go?

[Mark Schaefer]

Well, the book is available in paperback, hardback, ebook and audiobook through Amazon. And you don't have to remember me or my name. If you just remember businesses grow. That's the name of my website. So you can find the book we talked about today is Audacious How Humans Win in an AI Marketing World. And there's a lot of bonus content on the book website on my site. You might want to check that out. There's actually a game inside the book that can unlock bonus content and prizes for you as well. And you can find my blog, my podcast, all my socials. Boy, I hope I do get to meet some great new people in San Diego.

[Michael Stelzner]

Mark Schaefer, thank you so much for sharing your insights with us today.

[Mark Schaefer]

Thank you, Michael.

[Michael Stelzner]

Hey, if you missed anything, we took all the notes for you [e-mail] 659. If you're new to the show, be sure to follow us. If you've been a regular listener, I would love a review on whatever platform you're listening on. And would you do me a favor and let your friends know about this show as well? You can tag me on Facebook, on LinkedIn or on X. And do check out our other shows, the AI Explored Podcast and the Social Media Marketing Talk Show. This brings us to the end of the Social Media Marketing Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Stock. I'll be back with you next week. I hope you make the best out of your day and may your marketing keep evolving. The Social Media Marketing Podcast is a production of Social Media Examiner. We're in the biggest shift in marketing history with AI and social algorithms transforming everything. That's why Social Media Marketing World 2025 is isn't just a conference. It's your complete marketing transformation. Whether you join us in San Diego or virtually, one breakthrough could change your entire career. Secure your spot today at socialmediamarketingworld Info.