← Social Media Marketing Podcast
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- [00:01]
Michael Stelzner
If you're like many marketers, last year was very challenging, but this year doesn't have to be that way. Napoleon Hill said, the starting point of all achievement is desire. If you want to improve your know how, your results and your career prospects, then Social Media Marketing World is your solution. It's the place where smart marketers go to get new ideas and strategies that actually work. Get your tickets at social media marketing world.info and secure your future. I hope to see you there.
- [00:40]
Marcus Sheridan
Welcome to the Social Media Marketing podcast.
- [00:43]
Michael Stelzner
Helping you navigate the social media jungle.
- [00:46]
Marcus Sheridan
And now, here is your host, Michael Stelzner. Hello, hello, hello.
- [00:51]
Michael Stelzner
Thank you so much for joining me for the Social Media Marketing podcast brought to you by Social Media Examiner. I'm your host, Michael Stelzner, and this is the podcast for marketers and business owners who want to know how to navigate the ever changing marketing jungle. We've got a great episode for you today. Today I'm going to be joined by Marcus Sheridan and we're going to explore content marketing in light of Google search going away and what this is really going to mean to the future of content marketing. We're going to cover a whole bunch of amazing things. I think you're going to absolutely love this episode. I can't wait to hear from you. By the way, at the end of today's podcast episode, I'll explain how you can reach out to me and let me know if you like the show. If you're new to this podcast, be sure to follow us on whatever app you're listening to because we've got some great stuff coming up. Let's transition over to this week's interview with Marcus Sheridan, helping you to simplify your social safari.
- [01:53]
Marcus Sheridan
Here is this week's expert guide.
- [01:56]
Michael Stelzner
Today, I'm very excited to be joined by Marcus Sheridan. If you don't know who Marcus is, you gotta know Marcus. He is a content marketing strategist that helps people scale their audience. He's the author of they Ask youk Answer. He's also a partner at Impact, a coaching company that helps businesses share their stories without reliance on agencies. And he's got a million other things that I'm not even gonna mention today. And he's a good friend of mine. Marcus, welcome back to the show. How you doing today, bro?
- [02:23]
Marcus Sheridan
Yo, Stelz. Been too long. So it's about time we brought this party back together.
- [02:28]
Michael Stelzner
I know, man. So today Marcus and I are going to explore if search is dying and whether content matters moving into the future. And these are important things to Talk about. But before we go there, the last time you were on the show, Marcus, was 2019, which feels forever ago because it's 2025. Yeah, we're recording this actually on New Year's Eve, but it's coming out in 2025. So I'd love to hear a little bit of what's been going on in your world since 20 2019. And since it's been a while, if you want to back up the clock a little bit to help provide context today, I think that'd be really cool.
- [03:03]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, I'll give the quick, very fast 60 second story for those that don't know me in real life. I started in 2001 as a pool guy with this company called River Pools. And then the market collapsed in 2008. 2009 looked like we're going to lose the business. And so that's when I started really learning about content marketing and inbound, all that stuff. And basically what I said is like, okay, so we're going to become the Wikipedia of pools. And that's what happened. And we called the framework, I called the framework, they ask, you answer. And we became the most traffic swing pool website in the world. And that led to this extraordinary journey where I started to write about it. And that led to me speaking at events and that led to the agency and that led to eventually me having this manufacturing company that was sold as well as a franchise of fiberglass pool builders that was sold in 2020. And so it's wild though, Michael, because 2019, now it's 2025. Crazy what happens. I've never seen change like this since I've been in the game of business since 2001 and I've been speaking about like digital stuff, of course, since 2000 and like 9, 10 range. And so now all of a sudden I feel like what used to take three, four years sometimes takes like three weeks. And that's the world that we have to get used to. And it makes me think a lot about. There's a phrase that I really love that applies so much to today, and that is we can't fit the future in the containers of the past. I see a lot of people doing that right now when it comes to the way that they perceive AI and its impact on the world. And this certainly affects our conversation today in search, because the way they're viewing, what's going to happen with search is, is based on history. But you can't do that. That's a different game now, right, Michael? And so we've got to think differently. And it's a new set of rules.
- [04:56]
Michael Stelzner
Well, and I'm going to share a little bit more of the story that Marcus has not shared. Marcus. I think part of the reason he kind of got a little bit famous is because Ann Hanley had you in her book Content Rules. Right? Wasn't that her book? Was it the name of her book or something?
- [05:09]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, that was the first person that really interviewed me about the Riverpool story. That's right.
- [05:13]
Michael Stelzner
And then all of a sudden, I bumped into you at an event called Content Marketing World, and we became really fast friends. And Marcus had a blog called the Sales lion, and his background really is in sales. And then eventually he became someone who became a prolific speaker and writer, specifically about content marketing. You were on the HubSpot bandwagon, right? And HubSpot was one of the tools. And you had a podcast, a number of shows that you did all around inbound marketing and all these kinds of things, Right? So you really built kind of your second career, for lack of better words, in the back of content marketing. Would that be a fair assessment?
- [05:54]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, 100%. You know, people have called me the Gary V. Of pools, right? Because, you know, he started with wine, I started with pools. We both had this, like, very relatable business story, and we had to save these businesses, right? And, you know, it was interesting not to get too, like, off track here, but our personal story, Michael, is such an interesting one, because almost nobody knew me until Content Marketing World, the first Content marketing world. And I met you there and actually just, like, came right up to you one night and said, hey, man, you.
- [06:23]
Michael Stelzner
Used your sales skills on me.
- [06:25]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, man, I'm speaking tomorrow. You want to come? But what was so funny about that is you actually came, and that day, you essentially, to a degree, like, took me under your wing and said, hey, would you like to write for Social Media Examiner? So I started writing for Social Media Examiner. Hey, do you want to speak at Social Media Marketing World? So I started speaking Social Media Marketing World, right? You know, it's like, I am. I'm not great at being very extroverted with people I don't know. But that night, you were talking with Amy Porterfield, and I literally, like, interrupted you both and introduced myself. Totally out of character for me, but I did it and it paid off, and we've had a great friendship since that time.
- [07:03]
Michael Stelzner
I think it's partly because of that sales skill that you have. Like, I remember he came up to me in this yellow shirt. He was wearing Kind of his probably standard shirt that he would wear if he was going to knock on someone's door and do a sales call. And he just said, come to my session. His session. He got gypped. So he only had like 30 minutes. And he was fast and he was funny, and I believe I was in the front row. And then afterwards, I just saw something in Marcus, as I've seen a lot of people, that I saw his future flash before me. And I said to myself, this guy's got something, and it's really exciting. And flash forward to today, 2025. We're now in a world where a lot of these principles that you and I have been talking about for so many years on the content marketing front, which is just creating great content and, and drawing an audience to you, is shifting. How have you dealt with this over the last couple of years? Cause I would imagine it's forced you to rethink some things, right?
- [08:00]
Marcus Sheridan
Well, absolutely. And if we look at what's going on, this really. I'm passionate about this subject, Michael, because I was listening to a podcast recently where it was a known podcast, and they were interviewing an SEO guy who owns an SEO company, and they said to him, so what do you anticipate happening with Google Search in the coming years? He's like, you know, I don't see a big dip. Companies still need to be all in with Google Search, and it's still going to just be fundamental to your business. And I thought to myself, what a bunch of intellectual dishonesty. Come on, dude, are you really being serious right now? It bothered me so much because we see what happens whenever there's dramatic shifts in the marketplace. The leaders of the past are the slowest to generally embrace the future. And so this is why you see, these SEOs are saying, no, no, no, no, no, no. Google Search is going strong. And, oh, if you look at the numbers, Google is still getting a lot of searches that they've seen a very little dip, you know, a small dip so far, you know, or they're being, you know, used more than ever. But the point is, it's not so much about are people using Google. It's are those people making it to your website? Can you, as a business, build a business and build a state of leads and sales ultimately on the back of Google Search? And the answer is, no, you cannot do that. As time goes on, and just to test this, I said, I want to go to ChatGPT and see if it will give me an honest answer here. Because most SEOs won't, by the way, there are exceptions out there, right? And Chat said, look, I would expect that Google will have a dip of 25 to 40% just in terms of people using them over the next 10 years. But in terms of public publishers, businesses, right, getting that visitor to their website, in this era of zero click, which is what we're living in now, we're gonna see. Well, Chat says a 70% decline now because I've had so many companies that have been doing they Ask youk Answer. I've worked with them for years now. And by the way, they Ask youk Answer is rooted in the obsession with the questions, worries, concerns that your customers are asking, and the willingness to address those online, especially on your website. Now, it has been one of the greatest SEO strategies ever that had an actual name. It was a very simple framework for people to understand. And that's why the book has resonated with so many and changed lives. Other than the fact that it really pushes this whole idea of radical transparency, being more honest and open with the marketplace and just give them what they stink and want, be willing to address their questions. But that's search in many ways. So people that did they ask you answer? They saw an explosive growth. And so since we've seen, you know, November 2021, ChatGPT, I've started to get all those questions, Mike, of people saying, so, Marcus, what's this mean for they ask you answer, what's this mean for Google Search? And I always have a couple different answers to this. Because first of all, you have to understand this. If the only reason you are producing content on your website and online was for Google Search alone, you completely missed the boat like you've missed the mark. I could come up with a list of probably like 40 different reasons you should be producing content and putting said content on your website. One of those 40 is to increase your Google search results. One of the 40. But there's so many others, Michael. And so when I see people saying, yeah, I just don't know if we should be doing that anymore, I'm like, okay, first off, do you think people are still going to go to your website to vet you? Well, yeah. Okay, when they come to your site to vet you, do you want to be fed? Well, yes, I want them to be fed well. Are you saying you're just going to have an empty platter? You expect them to get 100% of the information from AI or from someone else? Not from you? Do you not want to have your voice? And oh, by the way, We've seen very definitively that the companies that are really aggressive with doing they ask, you answer, addressing those questions online, especially on their website, they're the ones getting recommended the most by AI. And so now we've got this world of, you know, Google search was like one of the greatest marketing strategies we've ever seen over the course of 20 years, man, it was just amazing. But now when we say search, we're so much more than just Google and AI recommendations is the search of the future, whether we like it or not. Plus of course social media, plus of course YouTube. So there's a lot there. I'm going to shut up, Michael, because I know you want me to shut up so you can ask me some good questions here.
- [12:57]
Michael Stelzner
You may have already answered some of these questions, but I'm going to go ahead and ask them anyways. Okay. Why, without how. Why should marketers care about content marketing in 2025? Just give me a succinct answer.
- [13:09]
Marcus Sheridan
Because content in many ways is the soul of your business and you cannot understand the market unless you're obsessed with the market and giving the market what the market wants. They want the content, they're going to get it from someone, they might as well get it from you. Now, if they get it directly from you, great. If they get it indirectly from you, also great. Indirectly being AI recommends you. But either way they're going to get it. So hopefully they're going to get it from you.
- [13:44]
Michael Stelzner
Perfect. So we've already talked about some of the trends going on in search and why it's happening. I'm going to add a little bit of my insights in here and then, you know, you can share whatever comes to your mind. I saw very early that ChatGPT was going to for sure steal search traffic away from our website. As a media publisher, I started to watch the trends rapidly decline in the three months after chat GPT came out. And I just knew this concept of the single best answer, which is a concept that has been around for a while. When you think of Amazon's Alexa, right, or Siri on the Apple device, where it just gives you a single answer, you know, that's kind of where the world is going. Like most people that are searching are looking for a very specific answer. If they trust the delivery mechanism, then they're going to trust the answer and they're not going to necessarily come to your website. As a result of this, I moved my business to a newsletter first Business. And I presented this on the keynote stage at Social Media Marketing World because My hypothesis was that it would be really important for me to continue to publish on my website, but more importantly to nurture relationships through the owned media channel called email newsletter. And I just knew that search was going to continue to go down and I moved to an email first philosophy. Right. And that's, that's been really helpful for us to retain our list and we are delivering content to people that into that list. But I do believe that ChatGPT is a big part of why search is coming down. But I also want you to talk about what Google's doing with their AI answers a little bit, just so people can wrap their head around that.
- [15:28]
Marcus Sheridan
I don't think Google could possibly bury search results any more than they currently do. It is stunning. I mean, if you haven't gone and actually looked recently, go do a Google search right now. First of all, the first thing they're going to show, of course, are sponsored ads. They try to make them look 100% real at this point because they want you to click on them and they want to take your money there. And that's how they make the majority of their money as a business. Not in the future, but today, that's how they make the majority of their money. Then you've got AI answers. So that takes up another whole chunk of a page. I mean, we're talking like a lot.
- [16:07]
Michael Stelzner
It's like two or three search queries, right? It's huge.
- [16:09]
Marcus Sheridan
Yes, it's huge. Then you've got related questions. Then you've probably got some stupid results from some chat form or something like that. Reddit. I don't know why they became obsessed with Reddit, but now they're obsessed with Reddit. And so you have to go through a marathon of scrolling just to get to those 10 dang blue links.
- [16:34]
Michael Stelzner
So if you're number one, you're not really number one anymore. That's important for people.
- [16:37]
Marcus Sheridan
You're not even number. Like if we look at size of a page, you're like on page four today. If you're number one in serps, it's crazy.
- [16:51]
Michael Stelzner
SERPS is search engine results or something. Is that what that means?
- [16:53]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, yeah. Search engine result pages. Like, it's like you are literally now buried.
- [16:59]
Michael Stelzner
Oh, and one more thing. Google has. And I track the AI world because I've got an AI podcast. Google has recently formally said that they're going to give people the option to just have an AI option when they go to google.com instead of having the search queries. So we kind of can tell where this is going right.
- [17:17]
Marcus Sheridan
It is inevitable. And it's obvious now to people like you. The great thing about you, Michael, is you're not trying to protect previous business models. And you see so many CEOs do this. You see so many people do this.
- [17:31]
Michael Stelzner
Sunk cost bias. That's what they call it, right?
- [17:33]
Marcus Sheridan
That's right. I'm the guy that wrote the ask you Answer, and I am saying that if I was to start a swimming pool company today, I absolutely could not repeat what I did 15 years ago and become the most known, trusted and trafficked swimming pool brand in the world. Which is what I became. This is why, by the way, there's the third version of they Ask youk Answer is coming out. It's called Endless Customers. It's coming out in April. It's available now. Because what's happening with AI and so many people saying to me, marcus, should I still be producing content? In the book, I have a list of all the reasons why you should be producing content. That being said, you should not expect to build your house on Google Search. You now have to say, all right, what do we have to do to become a known and trusted brand? Brand matters more than ever. And your community around that brand. Which is why people like Michael here have this great newsletter. He says, I'm going hard into this because they can't take this. This isn't rented land. This is my land. I own it. This is my community. I can continue to nurture them. And it's never going to go up and down like it has with Google. He's not at the mercy of tech at that point. That's very important. But if you're going to build a known and trusted brand in the future, we've got to go beyond what we've been doing up to this point. I'm sure you probably want to ask a question about that, Michael, but because I don't want to jump the gun.
- [19:09]
Michael Stelzner
Here, just jump the gun. It's okay. You know where we're going. Go ahead.
- [19:12]
Marcus Sheridan
We got work to do. So if you say, okay, Marcus, I'll play. I need to build a known and trusted brand. How do I do that in 2025? Beyond. Well, it does start with this continuation of content. But you have to see yourself in this. I don't say this lightly. I mean it. I mean it so seriously. You have to see yourself, your brand personally, and your brand as an organization. You are a media company now. Michael is smart.
- [19:44]
Michael Stelzner
I've been a media company the whole time.
- [19:46]
Marcus Sheridan
You've been a media company. The whole time. That's what I was going to say. Yeah, you've been thinking like that the whole time. But my life changed when I said, people used to say, what do you do? And I would say if they were asking about my pool company, I would say, ah, you know, we're a fiberglass swimming pool company now. I say, we're a media company that happens to bring families joy by installing pools in their backyard. Okay, we're a media company first. That's a mindset I want our entire team to have. All right? If I look at all my companies now, I've got like seven different companies on a partner with now. Okay? All media first. That's the mindset now. You might say, well, how does a media company think differently?
- [20:19]
Michael Stelzner
Define what you mean by media company before you answer. How do they think differently? Differently.
- [20:22]
Marcus Sheridan
A media company says we have to show what we do. And everything about them is like, how do we show and tell this story of the thing that you sell? How do we show and tell this story better? You become a media company when you do a few things. Number one, you invest in people that can produce that media for you. You know, for the longest time, I mean, I've been saying for I solid 10 years, I said, in the future, everybody's going to have an in house videographer. Like any company that's over like a million bucks is going to have an in house videographer. And a lot of people said, marcus, you're crazy. They're going to outsource. I'm like, outsourcing your content is not the future of the web, people. That is not going to bring you to the promised land. If you think you're going to create a masterpiece by telling Victor Hugo how to paint, you're wrong. You need to learn to hold the paintbrush yourself and you need to put the paint to the canvas. So that's why the Internet will be owned by those that can produce their own content in the future. This is why you have to think like a media company. A media company is a master at telling great stories. You have to learn how to tell stories that resonate and land with the marketplace. Makes your brand memorable. You have to show stories that make people stop and say, huh, that's interesting. That's fascinating. I didn't know that. I didn't realize that. Right. That's what media companies do. A media company, let's say just with pools or whatever it is. But like in the case of pools, I'm a media company, I walk up on a job site. And I say everything here is a story. Everything I see here is a potential video. One swimming pool in the ground is literally 50, 60, 70 different stories about decisions a homeowner made that could be shown to the world. But most people don't see it that way. And most aren't willing to invest in that videographer. And most are still thinking that they can't show all these things. You have got to get very, very comfortable with showing it. Media is going to be your key. And as you produce this video content, then it can go to the places like the TikToks that continue to blow up, the YouTubes that continue to blow up, all the short form video that continues to blow up. All this stuff matters to your brand going forward.
- [22:36]
Michael Stelzner
Well, and if anybody here watches HGTV or the Magnolia Network, these are actually shows of people breaking houses apart and rebuilding them, Right? And they always have, like Chip and Joanna or whoever the latest person is, right? They show the personalities of the owners of the business. They're showing the transformation that's happening from beginning to end. They get it done in a half an hour. Now, that can be done for any type of business. You have an advantage, Marcus, when you're in a pool, because you're starting with either ground that's flat and then you're finishing with the pool. But any kind of business could do something like this. I'm an imagine, right? What do you want to say to people that don't have a physical transformation? Help them understand how that transformation could still be documented.
- [23:23]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, yeah. I mean, and you've heard me say this before, Michael, but you know, that idea of, yeah, my situation's different. It is a creativity killer. Very, very few companies ever do anything extraordinary when they sit there and they say, but my situation is different. And so you have to say to yourself, okay, I have something that I could show to the world. I just need to get better in terms of that storytelling, whatever that storytelling is. I mean, if you go to YouTube right now, you're seeing all these people that are like rich teenagers that are crushing it, crushing it, because they don't sit there and overanalyze, how do I show this? They just start talking about it. The funny thing with art is generally you don't learn how to do it until you start to walk the trail, and then you see where the trail's supposed to go. It's the same thing as a, as a CEO. Like, you do this all the time, Michael. It's like you're, you know, you're Got all these cool things that you're doing that you're building as you walk the trail. Then you figure out, where is this supposed to be? A lot of people think that you have to be great with content out the gate. No. And this is why a lot of companies, a lot of brands fail to produce extraordinary content because they're not okay with imperfect and they think it's gotta be just a phenomenal, amazing from the beginning. Whereas what you just have to do is understand that, okay, it's a 7 out of 10, great, eventually it's gonna be an 8 out of 10, it's gonna continue to get better and better, but we've gotta give ourselves some leeway with that. Otherwise you don't have that learning curve and you don't do anything extraordinary.
- [24:54]
Michael Stelzner
Do you ever feel like no one understands your marketing challenges? Do you wish you had people you could talk to about AI content creation or marketing strategy? That's exactly what you'll find at Social Media Marketing World. Mallory Bezit said, quote, I love the overall atmosphere and that everyone was so willing to share and network with each other. Imagine having a network of expert marketers you can turn to whenever you need advice or inspiration. This becomes your reality when you attend Social Media Marketing World. Don't go it alone. Grab your tickets now@social mediamarketingworld.info for those that have been around for a while, they know. I did a two season episodic documentary called the Journey which I published on Facebook and on YouTube. And it was just about the story of us trying to grow our conference and all the crazy pitfalls along the way. I today write, which is my preferred medium, weekly posts about the struggle of running this business and people connect with it. And it's interesting. I want to really explore the idea. A couple themes that I've heard you say is, number one, you can't build your business on inbound search traffic from Google, but your content should be built. And you kind of talked about video a little bit. So talk about this other platform called YouTube and where you see it fitting into the grand scheme of content marketing moving forward.
- [26:27]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, it wouldn't shock me if YouTube made more money for Google in 10 years than Google search does today for Google. And the reason is because as, as we proceed forward, right in this AI universe, what we're seeing definitively is more and more people are using the YouTubes in the TikToks of the world, in the Amazons of the world, to get the information that they want. And many people don't just want to read it, they want to see it. I mean, this is becoming prolific and we know the rate in terms of video. It's like, it's extraordinary. Right now, over 80% of all the time people spend online is spent watching video. That number continues to grow every single year. This is what I mean by you've got to think like a media company and you got to get very serious about YouTube. And once you get serious about YouTube, YouTube, you've got these two fronts, of course, which is we got long form, we got short form. The cool thing about YouTube is it's still, for the most part, an unaffected search engine.
- [27:30]
Michael Stelzner
Unaffected by AI is what you mean by that, right?
- [27:32]
Marcus Sheridan
Right. Whereas like Google has been destroyed, like Google search results have been destroyed. We already said you're on page four if you're ranking number one. Whereas if you're on YouTube and you're ranking number one, you're not going to be pushed down in such dramatic ways. So that's beautiful, because the way they make their money is by showing you the best video and within the video, you get the ads. That's how they make their money. So it's a different type of delivery for them and their product and the way that they, you know, generate the revenue. So I think this is the first time in the 15 years that I've been consulting with companies, coaching companies, Michael, that I've told folks that their first hire needed to be a videographer over a writer. So for 15 years I was saying you need a content manager and that person is like the core writer for your business. Right now it's really interesting. I'm saying you need a videographer that can use AI to write well with you, for you, but they need to be video first because we have to take advantage of YouTube. And the thing about YouTube is extraordinary because once you, like, you become very good with video, you start to see all the different places that you can use one single video, YouTube being one of them. But then you've got just the YouTube long, you got the YouTube short. So that's two places right there. Then we've got all the social media platforms that you want to post it to. So that's a multiplicity. It's like when we're talking about, like building an own brand, we just have to do more than just produce content and throw it up on our site. That's not enough. I was able to do that in 2009. I can't do that today and expect to build a known and trusted brand. So We've got to be on multiple platforms. I'm not saying that's easy, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't focus on one first. But you are going to have to get great with video if you're going to have an extraordinary brand moving forward. And you're going to want to take advantage of YouTube and you're going to want to make sure that your YouTube page cannot just be some side dish to your business. You gotta see, like this. I have two websites. I've got YouTube or three, really, with social. But like, YouTube has to be viewed with the importance of your website and not just like this redheaded stepchild, which is what we oftentimes see with so many businesses.
- [29:51]
Michael Stelzner
I love it, and I think you're right. First of all, there's a lot more competition on YouTube, which is really important for people to process because a lot of the younger folks that are listening to this already know YouTube is where they start and it makes the most amount of sense. And you've got a lot of podcasters now who used to be audio only, who are waking up to YouTube. We've been there for a very long time. The content standards are higher on YouTube now than they ever were before. But the big advantage to YouTube is discoverability. YouTube will show your video to strangers, which is exactly what we want as marketers. Right. So it's not just search on YouTube, it's also suggested videos. It's the next video. When someone's in like a thread of watching videos, and it's huge.
- [30:34]
Marcus Sheridan
And along these lines, Mike, you know, people naturally say, but video's not my thing. And the problem is, the moment you signed up to go into business, you lost the right to say, but that's not my thing. Because nobody has ever come to your website before.
- [30:52]
Michael Stelzner
That's like saying, I don't need a website when the Internet first came out, Right?
- [30:56]
Marcus Sheridan
Correct. Nobody's ever come to your website and said, man, I wish I could. I wish I could see a video on this, but they don't have a video on it. But you know what? I'm sure video is just not their thing, and I'm sure it makes them really nervous. And so I'm going to give them a pass. I'm just going to call them on the phone instead. Nobody has ever said that. What they say is, I really want to see a video. So I understand this thing. That's what they're thinking in their mind. And it's our job, it's our fiduciary as Business owners, marketers, et cetera, to meet the marketplace where they are. That's why it's. They ask, you answer. It's like, if they want to learn in a certain way, we meet them where they are. We can't continue as marketers to drive square pegs into round holes moving forward and expect to really stand out in the marketplace. We have to be willing to meet them where they are. And there's a lot of different ways that we can do that, but we've got to meet them where they are.
- [31:50]
Michael Stelzner
Okay, so so far what I'm hearing from you is that we need to continue to publish content on our website because even if they're on our YouTube channel, they're going to find out if they want to, you know, buy products and services from us, they're going to go to our website. And when they go to our website, there's going to be an expectation that there's the types of content there that a buyer would want. And I get that completely. The second thing I'm hearing you say is that video, video, video. We've been banging this drunk for a really long time. But it's the one area that has not been disintermediated by AI yet. Even though it's true a lot of videos on YouTube are AI generated, the truth of the matter is that there's mostly videos from humans talking about things that other humans are interested in. That's right, the social platforms. I'd love to get your take on the strategy there.
- [32:40]
Marcus Sheridan
For those that know me, if you're following me on LinkedIn, you'll see that I do very well on LinkedIn. I'm not great necessarily. I don't have a focus on other platforms on a social level personally, but I chose to be great on LinkedIn because I'm a speaker and that's where my customer base is. But what makes me great on LinkedIn is the same thing that will make you great on Instagram. Same thing that makes you great on TikTok is I understand how to tell a story. And if I cannot give a post as a story, well, then I'm probably not going to share the post because the truth is the most valuable thing, like information you have. I have learned definitively. In the last five years on LinkedIn alone, I've done over 1500 posts. And these are not small, like, I mean, they're thoughtful. It's what my blog was back in the day. Michael. Right. It's like, to me, that's the modern blog is really social media. Today and on a place like LinkedIn, for me, I have seen definitively that I can post something, and I know it's incredibly valuable, incredibly helpful, but it doesn't have legs if it's not said the right way. And so that's why we have to be master storytellers. Look at the patterns of all my posts. You're like, you'll notice I almost always have this vibe as like. Like this feel of, like, I was talking to somebody the other day and somebody said this to me. And recently someone asked me this question and, you know, the other day I was in the store and it's like, we have to become better at that. I look at so many people failing on social media, and it's simply because they just don't understand how to deliver the goods in a way that really sticks and resonates with people.
- [34:23]
Michael Stelzner
You're mostly writing, but you're not just doing written content. Are you adding images and videos? Sometimes. Like, what's your strategy on that?
- [34:30]
Marcus Sheridan
Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, it's a full mix. Full Monty. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do some images. You know, today I did an image plus a post, and I'm always thinking of a, like, a full mix. I'll do at least one to two videos a week on LinkedIn. And so you don't know what you're going to get.
- [34:46]
Michael Stelzner
Are they verbal riffs? Sometimes when you're making a video? Yeah.
- [34:49]
Marcus Sheridan
And sometimes it's just a verbal riff. Sometimes it's a video that I made in the studio. I mean, it's not like, people look at my LinkedIn stuff and they're like, man, Marcus, you're really good. Like, do you have this, like, amazing backlog? It's like, my backlog is that more than I'm figuring out what I'm going to do. Literally, I'm. I am not prepared. But I do understand how to tell a story, and I got a lot of things on my mind, and so I just choose something from that. I cannot stress this enough. Like, at this point, I'm not hiring a marketer if they can't tell story. If I'm in the interview process, Michael. And literally, I've got questions that I will ask to have to gauge their ability to tell me a story. And if they can't tell me a story and really get me into it, I'm not going to hire them. Can't do it today.
- [35:31]
Michael Stelzner
I love it. Okay. And I will say from my own experience, there's really only three obvious platforms that you can post long form written content on LinkedIn, Facebook and X, and that's it. Threads, unfortunately, is very short form, and it's just. It doesn't really work. So for those of you that are writers, that are former bloggers, those are great platforms. Every one of the platforms has video of some sort. I'm finding that short form is the key on the social platforms. I mean, anything longer than a couple minutes, I don't think is performing. I mean, when you're doing your videos on LinkedIn, are you trying to keep them a couple minutes or what's your thoughts on that?
- [36:06]
Marcus Sheridan
That's not necessarily true, Michael, and I could be wrong.
- [36:08]
Michael Stelzner
That's just my own experience.
- [36:10]
Marcus Sheridan
You can actually do longer form on LinkedIn effectively, and I've experimented with both.
- [36:14]
Michael Stelzner
How long is long? Like 10 minutes.
- [36:16]
Marcus Sheridan
You know, I've done really successful ones that were like six to eight minutes long.
- [36:21]
Michael Stelzner
Okay, so it's still pretty short.
- [36:22]
Marcus Sheridan
Now, granted, it's not 20 minutes, but. No, in the short definition of 60 to 90 seconds, yeah, it is a lot longer than that. And a lot of people are thinking, I can only do something that's like a, you know, like 90 seconds.
- [36:33]
Michael Stelzner
So five or six minutes, if it's a good story, is more than.
- [36:36]
Marcus Sheridan
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Works. Works well.
- [36:38]
Michael Stelzner
Okay, let's transition into where you think websites are going, because I think this is kind of cool. Talk to me a little bit about this.
- [36:44]
Marcus Sheridan
So you're like, all right, Marcus, what the heck do I do with my website other than good content? And of course, good content continues to be. Just as a side note, it's really the stuff that no one else in your industry wants to talk about. So you got to be willing to have those conversations that others in your space are not. Now, in conjunction with that, though, there's a stat that is changing everything from Gartner. And as soon as your audience hears this, they're going to be like, yep, of course, that's me. And that is this. 75% of all buyers say they would prefer to have a seller free sales experience. I'll repeat, 75% of all buyers say they would prefer to have a seller free sales experience.
- [37:20]
Michael Stelzner
That means no salesperson, right?
- [37:22]
Marcus Sheridan
It basically means this. We don't hate salespeople. We just do not want to talk to a salesperson until we are ready. And how do we define ready? Until we feel like we're informed and that we're not going to make a mistake. That's what defines readiness. And so you see a trend like this and this number's only growing. You see a trend like this, there's two ways to perceive it. You can say, oh gosh, it's the end of salespeople as we know it, or we can say, there's opportunity here. You and I, Michael, we're going to say there's opportunity. And so we have this seller free phenomena that's coming. And so how do you embrace the seller free economy? The way you do that, especially on your website, is through self service. How can you replicate the traditional sales experience on your website? Now, let me give you the most classic one that if you've ever heard me, Marcus Sheridan before, you've heard me talk about the importance of discussing cost and price online. Because if you're on a website and you're researching cost and price and you cannot find it, you get frustrated and you leave. But if somebody's willing to teach you about it, at least give you a sense for it, generally speaking, you're going to say, oh, I appreciate it so much. You have businesses for some reason still living in the Stone ages. Like it's 1995. That's the year I graduated high school, by the way, Michael. And they're still thinking it actually is helpful to not address cost and price. Folks today, the phrase call for quote is the literal middle finger of the Internet. I mean it. So how do you overcome flipping off your customers without you even realizing you're flipping them off? But they're feeling it, trust me. Well, there's different things that you can do. One of the most effective ways through self service is what I would call a self pricing tool or an a self estimator. Now imagine somebody comes to your website and they're like, I don't know how much this is. I just want to get a sense before I'm going to reach out to you, before I'm going to fill out that form. And so they're able to go through an interactive series of questions, a tool on your site. They answer these, and then at the end, the tool gives them a range as to roughly what they're going to spend. Now suddenly they say, finally somebody's willing to address this. I see I'm in the game. And now I want to get an exact quote. Now I'm going to fill out their form. And so, being the guy that has been talking about how to address cost and price online for well over a decade, Michael, I came up or developed this tool called PriceGuide AI. PriceGuide AI is the fastest, simplest and least expensive pricing estimator tool. On the Internet today. It allows you, whether you have a product or service, with the help of AI of course, to create an estimator tool that you can immediately put on your website and start generating leads. And just to give you a sense for the people that do this, as long as they show it in the right place, like homepage, really clearly, visibly, you're gonna get 3x the number of leads your website is currently getting by just having a pricing estimator tool. Now there's other self service tools out there, but that is one of the most effective. So check it out. PriceGuide, AI. But there's so many more. And I'll say this as a prediction, and you can count this as a stone cold lead pipe lock in the future, Michael, and that is within the next five years, 90% of service based businesses are going to be forced to have some type of pricing estimator tool on their website. Why? Because the market will demand it and all it takes is a few dominoes to fall and then everyone does it. You're now starting to see it in different industries like lawn care. You're starting to see all of them are having it. Roofers now they're all starting to have it using different tools to measure your roof by Google Earth. And now sudden they're getting you estimate because it works, people. And so that's why this is so effective. Do this before your competitors force you to do it. Because remember, the rule breakers become the rule makers and everybody else becomes the rule followers. All right, so this is very, very important. This whole trend of self service is just going to be huge. Can I mention just a couple other self service trends, Michael?
- [41:32]
Michael Stelzner
Sure.
- [41:33]
Marcus Sheridan
Okay. You're going to see a major trend of self selection. This means if somebody is debating between choices, like let's say you have three products and they're like, which one should I use? An interactive tool that gives an unbiased assessment as to what is the right choice. To give you an example of this, on my swimming pool website we only sell fiberglass pools. I have a tool that allows them to figure out if they want a concrete, a vinyl or a fiberglass swimming pool. It literally recommends, I tell dozens of people a day based on your answers, you should go with a concrete pool and I sell fiberglass. I'm sending them to the competition. That is what the market wants. That's how you become a known and trusted brand. But are most companies willing to do that? No. Should they be? Yes. It's no different than a simple tool that Michael Stelzner could have is. Is social media marketing world the right event for me? And a series of questions. And based on that series of questions, they might get a score of just how right social media marketing world is for them. Okay, one great tool for this is called ScoreApp. Daniel Priestley, I think you know him, good buddy of mine. Great, great tool to do assessment tools. Really, really powerful. So you got self selection, self assessment, self configuration, self scheduling tools. Last one little point. A little crazy story here, Michael. I've been helping a lot of my clients. We've been helping them get self scheduling tools on their site. This is when somebody can schedule time with a salesperson without being forced to talk to a human first. But here's the caveat. When you allow the person, the prospect to see on the screen the different salespeople and allow them to choose which salesperson they work with. Closing rates, and every company I've worked with and done this to double immediately every time when the person chooses their own salesperson, double closing rates. You see, that's the future of the website experience. Great websites are going to allow such incredible interaction, such control on the part of the buyer, the consumer, that they're going to call you up and they're like, I already did that tool on your website. I already know what I want, already know what I need, already got my salesperson. That's what they want. It's your job to meet them where they are.
- [43:46]
Michael Stelzner
Folks, we're not done yet. Because I'm going to ask Marcus to put on his thinking cap and imagine one year to two years from now. We talked about this crazy concept which I want you to share with everyone. Where do you see this going?
- [43:59]
Marcus Sheridan
So, folks, this is going to happen in 2025, all right? You take it to the bank. You're going to come to my website. Let's call it River Pools. You're going to come to the River Pools website, and instead of a boring chat box where you can type some text, you're gonna see a video version of Marcus or one of my team members and it's gonna look just like me. It's gonna sound just like me. It's gonna be like we're on a zoom call together, almost, right? But I'll be in the corner and I'm gonna literally say to you, welcome to the River Pools website. I am Digital Marcus. I'm not the real Marcus, of course, but I am using all of his information that he has put on this website to answer any of your questions. Now, I'm going to give you Two options. You can ask me any question via text or audio, and I'll answer them for you and we can have a full conversation. Or if you would like, I can give you a quote for your swimming pool right now. That's coming. Those are called digital humans, AKA digital avatars. There's other names for them in the marketplace, and they're AI driven.
- [45:04]
Michael Stelzner
They're AI driven.
- [45:04]
Marcus Sheridan
They are completely AI driven. And this is the future of the chat experience. We are going to feel like the whole chat stuff that we've been doing up to this point, in one year from now, we're going to feel like that was like dinosaurs. When you feel like you're speaking with a human now, I will caveat by saying, I think it's going to become a law anyway, that whenever there's any type of a digital human involved, whether it's voice or video, that it's going to be required that you say, hey, you're speaking with AI right now.
- [45:40]
Michael Stelzner
Right.
- [45:41]
Marcus Sheridan
This hasn't happened yet, but it's inevitable. And I think it's your fiduciary, your responsibility as a company to do that, because it's the right thing to do. You should tell them that. Okay. But the technology from a voice perspective is pretty much already there. With the next iteration of ChatGPT, this is a slam dunk because we've got AGI and it's there. Not everybody's using it.
- [46:00]
Michael Stelzner
I've already seen this. And for the record, I feel like over a year ago, I had inbound salespeople calling me that were not people, they were AI.
- [46:09]
Marcus Sheridan
Yes.
- [46:09]
Michael Stelzner
Yeah. You know, and it already sounds exactly like a human. So I know that the tracking of your Persona, whether it is really you or if it's a character that you license, I mean, I would imagine you're going to be able to hire, quote, unquote, virtual digital humans that specialize in these things, and then you tap them into your data set and they're trained on how to persuade or they're trained on how to educate or whatever it is. And it's just going to rock and roll.
- [46:33]
Marcus Sheridan
Michael, this is why you have to produce content. Because if you don't have the content on your site, that database for that LLM to draw from, well, then you're not going to allow for this incredible chat experience. The chat experience is going to be as good or as bad as what that bot, in this case, that digital human, has been fed. Now, some people are hearing this, though, and they're saying that doesn't feel very Human to me. Oh, so you tell me this, what's more human? That somebody goes to your website and they just read some articles from you or they go to your website, they see what looks like you, it sounds like you, it's using your brain and it has a full on conversation with them and then when they meet you in real life they say you're just like your digital avatar. That to me is way more human. And so I'm all about it. I can't wait to do this. I am so jacked up. The interactivity of websites in the future is going to be extraordinary. It's a great time to be thinking about websites. I am so into it and that's because of AI.
- [47:44]
Michael Stelzner
To those that are concerned about this, put yourself in the mind of a customer. What's worse when you know you can't get access to someone because it's after hours or on the weekend and then and you need something versus actually interacting with something that is competent and is actually able to schedule someone to be out to your house like literally on Monday morning at 8am I mean this is what consumers want, man. They want this stuff. Marcus, we could talk about this all day long. I love your passion. We already know Marcus Sheridan on LinkedIn. If they want to go ahead and learn more about about how to work with you in any kind of capacity, where do you want to send them beyond LinkedIn?
- [48:22]
Marcus Sheridan
You know, I would recommend that everybody goes goes to endlesscustomers.com My book is available on Amazon right now so I would love your support there. I think there's going to be so many takeaways if you know eos and traction. This is like the eos of digital sales and marketing, this book. So I'm very, very excited about it and anybody can reach out to me anytime. Marcusarcasherden.com or message me directly on LinkedIn. I'd love to hear from you.
- [48:44]
Michael Stelzner
Thank you brother for coming on. Appreciate you. Hey, I forgot to mention Marcus will be speaking at Social Media Marketing World. If you liked what you heard today and you want a chance to hear more amazing stuff from the mind of Marcus, be sure to grab your tickets. Also if he talked about stuff that you didn't capture, well, we got it all for you@socialmediaexaminer.com 651 if you've been a longtime listener, would you give this show a review on your favorite platform and and let me know what you thought about the show? You can tag Melzner on Facebook, Telzner on LinkedIn ikestelsner on X. Maybe let your friends know about it. And do check out our other shows, the AI Explored Podcast and the Social Media Marketing Talk Show. This brings us to the end of the Social Media Marketing Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Stelzner. I'll be back with you next week. I hope you make the best out of your day and may your marketing keep evolving in.
- [49:37]
Marcus Sheridan
The Social Media Marketing Podcast is a production of Social Media Examiner.
- [49:46]
Michael Stelzner
Make 2025 your best year ever. Grab your discount tickets to Social Media Marketing World right now by visiting social media marketing world.in fox.