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- [00:02]
Michael Stelzner
December isn't just about closing out 2025. It's about deciding what kind of marketer you'll be in 2026. Will you be reactive, always scrambling to catch up with algorithm changes and the AI tools? Or will you be visionary, the marketer who sees what's coming and prepares for it? That's why I created so Social Media Marketing World. Here's what Jennifer Morton said after attending quote, it was solid gold. I spent an entire day organizing all of my notes and running everything through AI to help me come up with a fantastic game plan to move my business forward. Now, the marketing landscape in 2026 will reward the prepared. Head to social media marketing world.info right now. The decision you make this month will echo through all of 2026.
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Welcome to the Social Media Marketing Podcast, helping you navigate the social media jungle. And now, here is your host, Michael Stelzner.
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Michelle Gifford
Hello.
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Michael Stelzner
Hello.
- [01:12]
Michelle Gifford
Hello.
- [01:12]
Michael Stelzner
Thank you so much for joining me.
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For the Social Media Marketing Podcast brought.
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To you by Social Media Examiner. I'm your host, Michael Stelzner. This is the podcast for marketers and business owners who want more exposure, more leads, and more sales.
- [01:27]
Instagram has 3 billion monthly active users. That's a lot of people consuming a lot of content. So I decided to bring on two experts on the show to explore what's working right now for marketers on Instagram. My first guest is an Instagram growth strategist who's helped thousands of business owners master the platform. She's host of the Good Content Podcast and founder of the Reals Lab. Shannon McKinstry, welcome to the show. How you doing today?
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Hi.
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Shannon McKinstry
I'm so good. How are you? I'm excited to be here.
- [01:55]
Michael Stelzner
Awesome to have you. My second guest is an Instagram strategist who's helped thousands succeed on Instagram. Her agency helps female personalities create Instagram content that connects and converts. Michelle Gifford, welcome to the show. How you doing today?
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Michelle Gifford
Good. What a party. This is fun.
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Michael Stelzner
I'm excited to have both of you here. Both of these experts have been on this podcast, they've been featured at our events, and they both will be speaking at Social Media Marketing World 2026 coming in April. All right, Shannon, I'm going to open with you. When you are working with business owners and they ask you what's working on Instagram right now, what do you tell them?
- [02:28]
Shannon McKinstry
So it's been hard for a lot of people to hear this, and I know Michelle's seen it, too, because I know she's kind of made the pivot Too just watching everyone, but switching more to me centric type hooks and personalized hooks. Instagram has kind of gone obviously through a journey and now we're kind of coming back to human based content. I think also with the rise of AI, we want to make sure we're getting content from not just how to content, but content content with your perspectives, your thoughts, your lived experience weaved in. So hooks are one of my favorite thing to help people come up with. Obviously I do a lot more than that, but one of the biggest things I've helped people with in 2025 to get out of that two under view jail, so they call it, is switching their hooks to more how I do things from a like Michelle's, you know, how she helps people go viral from someone who teaches female women. So it's that authority built in, but it feels personal and less like like the analog gave someone recently was there's a viral reel going on right now and it's a doctor and they say I fix bones for a living. They didn't say I'm a da da da da with a PhD. We want to hear from real people. So those hooks need to be me centric and personalized. But it's a big mindset shift because everyone was told to do the opposite. For so many years, none of our content was about ourselves. Right. And now it. It's a little hook, but it's still. It's not selfish, it's smart.
- [03:50]
Michael Stelzner
Shannon, awesome. Michelle, you work with a lot of people on a daily basis with their Instagram strategy. What's some of the biggest shifts that you're seeing right now that actually drive real results?
- [03:58]
Michelle Gifford
Yeah, I think what Shannon's saying is absolutely right. And it's really that form of storytelling where it's like less about like the blog writing. Right. I think we used to do hooks and content creation, like five steps to lose 25 pounds or get more protein or whatever. And now it's about how do we tell a story. And it can be our story, it can be our client's story and how do we bring people into our story? Because like you said, there are so many people on Instagram right now and so much content being created that the thing that makes us stand out is us and our experience. And it's a hard shift, like Shannon was saying to like shift because it's easy to do five steps to whatever. But making it in a story form with our hooks and with our content, it's a little bit harder. It's a skill that we have to learn. But that's what people are craving right now, these longer form content that tell a story and bring me in.
- [04:51]
Michael Stelzner
Okay, so what I'm hearing both of you say is, Shannon, you said it needs to be focused on me. So you're taking a point of view or you're establishing who you are and a little bit about who you're for right at the beginning. And Michelle, what you're saying is you need to tell a story. And I would imagine if these two things are kind of work together, that's going to get the kind of retention and the content that we're looking for. Am I hearing you both correctly?
- [05:14]
Shannon McKinstry
Thousand percent, yeah.
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Michelle Gifford
And I think that, like, part of the big reason is because people wanted to be. Want to be connected to people, and we have more choices than ever to choose from. And so it makes a difference. Like, there's other people you could follow that teach Instagram. Right. But you follow me and Shannon because of our unique stories and our background and what we share and how we show up online.
- [05:37]
Michael Stelzner
Yeah, Love it. Shannon would love to talk about the content mix right now that's performing on Instagram. And maybe you can just kind of like when we say content mix, like, explain what you know, there's a bazillion things you can do on Instagram. Right. What are the ones that seem to be actually mattering for marketers and entrepreneurs right now?
- [05:55]
Shannon McKinstry
Yeah, well, carousels are definitely having a huge moment, but again, they're different types of carousels. We used to pack so much knowledge and so much into one carousel. And like Michelle was saying, what we see now more so is storytelling.
- [06:10]
Michelle Gifford
Right.
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Shannon McKinstry
Again, it's not just five ways to build a brand. Three story ideas. It's like much more hooked to an identifier. And like Michelle said, to piggyback on what she said, Really 2025 and definitely going into 2026, because we've only seen it rev up. It's like the era of belonging. So if I see myself in your hook and whether it's a carousel, whatever it is, that's what I'm going to stop on and swipe through. So with a carousel, I don't do a lot of carousels because personally, for me, I obsess over them. I spend way too much time on a carousel because if I'm talking to the camera, I can talk all day. So what it comes down to is that perfect mix of what works for you and your audience. So I have a client right now, and she is almost all carousels and she's grown 16,000 followers in this week alone.
- [06:59]
Michael Stelzner
Wow.
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Shannon McKinstry
From two carousels.
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Michael Stelzner
Really?
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Shannon McKinstry
It's crazy. Carousels are having a moment. But what's funny is the carousels, they're literally photos from your camera roll. Like, Michelle could use pictures of her in her office, her with her kids. I could do the same. I actually just did one recently like that. And you just use the text on screen, two to three sentences each slide to give a tip, share a story, microhabits, routines. Again, from your own perspective and your lived experience. Those are going crazy right now. So if you find that does really well and you enjoy them, then bump those up. There's no mag, I don't think. Again, some people will say carousels are winning, Others will say reels are winning. It just depends. But for me personally, I do a mix of about two carousels a week, and then the rest are reels. In addition to that, I do a mix of educational content. I do a mix of some humor, some relatability. And what I know, I think Michelle's touched on this before too, is like that call out content where you're just calling out your people and their identifiers to say, hi, I'm over here. That Dear algorithm trend, Michelle, have you seen that going everywhere? It's like, dear algorithm, send me the people who blah, blah, blah, like content like that. So I think a good mix is obviously the valuable educational but also that personal content that Michelle and I are talking about with storytelling, how you got here, what you're working on, things you helped a client with this week. But at the end of the day, it's that magic mix of what you enjoy creating and what people enjoy consuming. But a good mix is just good anyway because some people prefer carousels and some prefer reels and some prefer stories. So it's good to just have all your bases covered.
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Michael Stelzner
Michelle, you have anything you want to add to the content mix?
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Michelle Gifford
Yeah, like what Shannon's saying, like, you get to choose reels or carousels or you know, what works for you and your audience. And something that I tried to do and teach is like, you need to start thinking of some of your content is to attract new followers. Right. Each different piece of content has a different job. So some of those posts are to attract new followers in. Some of your posts are to nurture your current following and make sure they know your story and they're connected to you that know like and trust factor. And then you can have some that are sell so that as you're looking at your content strategy, that it Includes all three of those attraction content, nurture content, and sell content. And that can be like, whether that's a reel or a carousel will really depend, like Shannon's saying, on what kind of account you're doing and what kind of content you like and what kind of content works the best for your topic. But to just know that you're. You do need to think about the strategy of, like, what things am I sharing and who am I reaching? What are my goals for each piece of content?
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Michael Stelzner
I'd love you to explain a little bit about how a piece of content to attract a new audience is different than maybe one for your existing audiences, so people can wrap their head around that.
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Michelle Gifford
Well, I think Shannon has a lot of these attraction pieces of content. I have one that's like, going viral, and it's because I don't teach anything about going to the gym or working out. But I did a real recently where I'm lifting weights. It's just a B roll, but the text on screen says, when I don't feel like doing arm day. But then I remember, what if my best friend needs me to punch someone in the face?
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Shannon McKinstry
Yes, I saw that.
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Michelle Gifford
It's been shared, like 24,000 times. And not about Instagram is about me as a person. Right. Because I. I guess I lift weights every day. But that's more of an attraction. It's going to reach a different audience, and that's really, really, really outside of my niche. But it's going to reach those women who are kind of like me, who are like, okay, we're doing this. And it's been funny. It's fun. It lets people into, like, who I actually am and I'm funny. Come on.
- [10:41]
So things like that. And usually what I recommend is like, thinking this is maybe a little bit more of one. Like, I had a client who likes sustainable fashion, and so maybe she just extends her niche. Like I say, go on the edges of your niche. And she talk about building a capsule wardrobe. So that's a little bit broader than her niche, but it might start bringing in people who would be interested but would not be looking for it on Instagram.
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Michael Stelzner
Shannon, do you have any tips on creating content that's designed to attract versus nurture?
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Shannon McKinstry
Yeah, I think, again, it's like that. And I love that Michelle did that, because I tell people all the time, if there's something you just want to share because it's your personality and it's fun, do it. Because sometimes that will lead to some amazing connections. But the one I love is I call it in my four H's that I teach the herd, right? It makes people feel heard. So I find for new followers. Two things get me the most amount of new followers. One, my talk to camera reels. Those always bring in the most amount of new followers.
- [11:35]
Michael Stelzner
What is that for people that don't know what that is?
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Shannon McKinstry
Oh, yeah, so just me, just a talking head, me giving a tip, me sharing a story. And I think it's because again, I know video is one of my strong suits. I kind of come alive on a video so they can feel my personality. So even though it is just typically an Instagram tip I'm sharing, they're also getting to know who I am. And I, I get comments about that all the time. So I always make sure to prioritize at least two reels where I'm just talking directly to the camera. Almost story, like very, like FaceTime people seem to really like that. So I know if I need an increase in followers or I need a bump up or I'm kind of stagnant, I will focus on that because you can just look at your insights to see. And then the other one, like I said, is the call out where you lean on those identifiers. And that's where I was saying, you know, 2025 and 2026 are such a big thing about belonging. So like Michelle, when she's calling people out, you know, making sure her words in her reels, when she's saying, hey, this is what I do over here. Words like creator, female business owner, or things like that. And even more so, I don't get too in the ways here, but I tell people, focus on the scenarios they find themselves in. So, you know, you're not just helping empty nesters, you're helping people who are missing the days with their children. Right? Or I'm not just selling to business owners, I'm talking to business owners stuck in 200 view jail who don't have time to create reels for hours on end, right? So that type of call out reel is those deer algorithm reels, those reels that say, hey, dear algorithm, send me to all the blank people who need blank. And these reels go crazy because those words trigger it to send it to the algorithm or to have the algorithm send that reel to your people. They see it and right away they go, oh, that's what this girl does. That's what Michelle does. And they hit follow. So sometimes they're tricky. I've even had some that I've tried and I'm like, that didn't resonate. But if you really want it to resonate with, get to know your people and look at the words they're using. When people leave a comment and they say, I'm really discouraged with Instagram, I will use that saying, discourage with Instagram. To all the business owners, discourage with Instagram. I hope you know, I'm over here sharing hooks for free that are getting people thousands of views or whatever it is. So those type of reels are really low lift, easy. It can be videos. Me, Michelle, whoever's sitting at a desk playing on her phone. It's more of like an advertisement for your account. So those are the two I lean on when I need to get some new followers.
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Michael Stelzner
Awesome. So far, this is just solid gold. Wow. I mean, we're just like only 14 minutes in and you all are crushing it. Okay, Michelle, can you give us an example of someone who you think is crushing on Instagram? They could be a client or not. You know, what are they doing maybe that other people don't realize, you know, so others can learn from it.
- [14:14]
Michelle Gifford
Yeah, I think they're leaning really into their analytics. Shannon brought this up, like, what does your audience like? What's worked in the past? Too many times? I have people who like, they come and to me and they're like, well, I'm too scared to look at my analytics. I don't know what they mean. I'm overwhelmed by them. They make me feel bad.
- [14:33]
And I try to get them to understand that analytics are, they're just clues, right? They are just clues to what will do well in the future. So if you have a reel that flops, we all do, right? Get over it and it's okay. I mean, it feels bad, I do feel bad. But also like, it is just information for us to know. Like, maybe we need to hone in on our hooks. Maybe we need to figure out our watch time because people are not watching. And that's one of the big algorithm shifts this year is the watch time, right? Is that Instagram is measuring watch time. And that's one of the things that is saying if it's going to push out our content or not. And so understanding how the algorithm works and then looking at our analytics and saying, oh yeah, I need to do a mid rail hook, right? Not just one at the beginning, but one in the middle. So. So I can keep people going. But if we're not looking at analytics, then we're just kind of just throwing stuff up at the wall. Another big thing for those like my clients that are winning are that they are being really intentional about the community that they're building. Because it's not just about going viral, but it's about like Shannon said, by following you, who am I saying that I am, right? Are you a business owner? You know, like we are like in Shannon's tribe, right? Like, and to really think about that and their content feels like the community, right? The content itself is branded to feel like them. And that might feel like too touchy feely for like a marketing world, but to just be really intentional. We all talk about like having a clear message, talking to one person about one problem. And like what Shannon was saying is the reason why we think about like, what scenarios do they find themselves in is because that's good human behavior. It's empathetic. It's also good marketing behavior to say like, we need to really meet these people exactly where they are with what they're dealing with. So one of my clients was like struggling to grow and I went and looked at her analytics and I was like, hey, every time she has a couple adopted kids and then she has older kids and she has younger kids. And so her content is all about how do you build these family connections, right? And we went and looked and she was like randomly sharing these games and every time they did, they would take off. And I said, hey, listen, if we go back and we look at all these, you know, what's actually taking off and we focus in on these things that are doing well, then your account will grow and your community will grow. And once we shifted that, her content took off and she doubled in, like went from like 300 to like 500,000 followers in a matter of like six to seven months. And so it, Instagram's algorithm is different than it used to be. And so you can take off and grow faster than you used to, but it's going to come down to like being really aware of your community, intentional about building it and looking at your analytics.
- [17:25]
Michael Stelzner
Okay, you mentioned mid Rail Hook, and I'm going to, I'm going to plant, I'm going to plant a little seed, folks. We're going to come back to what that is in just a few minutes. Okay, Shannon, do you have an example of anybody who you think is crushing it? I'd love to hear your story.
- [17:38]
Shannon McKinstry
Yeah, so I'll talk about my client who just recently got 13,000 followers off those two carousel posts. And she's, she's made 10,000 sales from like a 30 product in a month. And so what she's Done is again, like, you know, like Michelle said, when you look at the insights and you double down on what's working. And all we did was we looked at one that people were already happy with, right? Commenting like this was great. Oh my goodness. And I was like, well, how do we make it more specific and based on identity, like who is reading? And she helps, she teaches reading. And a lot of the people that follow her children, they have dyslexia or they have ADHD or whatever it is. So instead of broad, like how to teach your kid this, we focused on whatever grade level it was. We mentioned scenarios like teacher parent conferences, not just when you talk to the teacher, you gotta put yourself in their shoes. And that is marketing, right? It's like we have to be in our audience's shoes. What are they waking up, struggling with? What are they stuck on? And just make it such a easy win for them. If Michelle and I tried to teach an entire Instagram strategy in a reel, which is what we did in like 2020 when people were okay with that. Now if we do it, they're like, whoa, calm down. Give me one quick thing I can do today to win. And that goes for everyone listening. Like what is. Don't overwhelm them, just a bite size. But again, call out the person so that they know this is actually written for them. So those identifiers. And in my client is nailing it. Every time she posts another carousel, she. She just makes sure to call out the exact person that needs to see it. And it's not niching down so far. Cuz her whole account helps everyone. Anyone with a child but her content, she makes sure. Because we know, like Michelle said, there's big changes and one of the biggest changes is interest based, right? So Instagram knows the algorithm is crazy smart. So if you give it those words and say, hey, this is for so and so, it'll feed them that content.
- [19:28]
Michael Stelzner
You know, that feeling when you see someone else's success and think, I could have done that. That nagging regret of watching opportunities pass you by because you just weren't quite ready. Here's what I've learned from thousands of marketers over the last 12 years. The ones with the fewest regrets aren't the ones who played it safe. They're the ones who invested in themselves when it mattered. Here's what Emily Ray Shutty said after attending Social Media Marketing World quote, I came away incredibly empowered and reinvigorated for my work. At the time, I was fighting imposter syndrome. My business has since doubled in size. And I'm much more confident now is your decision point the moment you stop reacting and start leading. When you become the expert, instead of asking experts, when you master the AI skills that make you indispensable. A year from now, you'll look back at this moment, head to social media marketing world.info and make a decision that changes everything.
- [20:34]
Shannon, just carrying on a little bit here. Further, for those that are listening, that are using the exact same strategies that they use in 2024 or maybe even in 2023.
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Right.
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Because they felt they were cutting edge and they're just, you know, there's a lot of people that are creatures of habit. What do you want to say to them?
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Shannon McKinstry
Oh, it's time to pivot. It's just time to. And I hate to say it, but the cool thing is, I mean, people get mad when I say this. I think it's easier right now. I don't know. I find it not that, like, oh, like again, Michelle and I, we've helped so many people go viral, but that's not our big thing. You know, building community, keeping people coming back to your account. But I find it more fun to create content now because it doesn't have to be as vague and I can have fun with the copy I use and build my personality into it. More like, we are following personalities and people we like, not just the profession that they do. So the biggest thing to do, and this is what I tell everyone, is we're all spending 30 minutes to an hour on Instagram a day anyway, look at it as a user. What are you liking? What are you sharing? What are you commenting on? Like, Michelle had that one that has 24,000 shares. They're sharing it with their sisters, their besties, their friends that they haven't talked to in 10 years. This made me think of you. What made you share it? And ask yourself, what are those scenarios your people find themselves in? I mean, use chat GPT, just be like, I'm a this or that, and this is, can you tell me the things that they're waking up frustrated with? And put yourself in their shoes. And so when you get those reels and those carousels that you yourself saved, shared, followed. If you hit follow on an account from a piece of content, I want you to screenshot it. I want you to throw it in a chat GBT and say, why did this get me? And let it break it down. And then you can say, okay, well, here's a little bit about me and how can I Use this hook. And that's all we do. That's what we do in the reals lab, I'm like, okay, this went crazy. For a fitness coach, you're a librarian. We can make it work. Like, you just find and chat will even break it down and say, this is why this word. This is why this word. So don't think you have to reinvent the wheel. You just need to all those topics that you covered in 2020-2023, take them the things you'd like talking about and just adjust the hook and have more fun with it. I don't know. I'm having a lot more fun with my content now because I feel like there were never rules, but there's way less rules now.
- [22:47]
Michael Stelzner
Michelle, what do you want to say to people that are operating off an old playbook? Because I think there's a sense of a wake up call that's necessary here.
- [22:54]
Michelle Gifford
There is. And you're probably really frustrated with Instagram. You're probably mad. You're probably mad because your content's not working and you're like, I guess Instagram doesn't work anymore. Well, like, look around. Is it working for anyone else? Well, then maybe it's, you know, maybe it's you that might need to change. So people get really mad at Instagram, like, it's a person. Like, it's like writing your personal hate mail. Right. It's like, I actually don't like this person, so I will put them in 200 real gel. But it's actually great. Right? We're glad that Instagram changes. If it doesn't, then people don't stay on the app. We have a free platform that we get to grow, we get to build a community. And if we decide that we're going to take it seriously and strategically, then it can completely change your business. Completely. But you have to show up and you have to stop whining.
- [23:40]
Shannon McKinstry
Yeah.
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Michelle Gifford
Listen, I'm a mom. I just am going to say, pull it together.
- [23:44]
Shannon McKinstry
I get it.
- [23:44]
Michelle Gifford
Like, stop whining. Just pull it together and put yourself out there and try stuff. If you're not getting very many views, cool. Try some stuff. You're not. No one's going to see it and start testing stuff out right now. And you're going to see what works and what doesn't, and that's awesome. And I really love what Shannon said about the shares and her call out content. Because the reason why call out content works so well is because you know exactly who to send that to, even if it's not me that that applies to. I know exactly who to send it to. So that's what's cool about Instagram is it's not just about how do I get on the for you page. But Instagram has so much more strength in that area than TikTok because it's more community and personality based. So get into it. You'll figure it out. People like my mom would say, people dumber than you are doing it. So you just as well try. So just as well try. So get out there. There are a lot of people like me and Shannon who will help you do it.
- [24:44]
Michael Stelzner
Yeah, we're going to get tactical here, really tactical in just a minute. But I just want to say Michelle and Shannon are amazing and they will be at Social media Marketing World 2026. So you have a chance to actually come and learn and like experience this stuff. And these two are people that are present. So you're going to absolutely love what they have to teach you. All right, Michelle, we're going to get tactical mid reel hook. I told everybody we're going to come back to the mid reel hook. So what the heck is a mid reel hook? Like tell us what it is, why it works, and whatever kind of stuff.
- [25:15]
Michelle Gifford
You want to say a mid reel hook is. Once I point this out, you're going to start seeing it in the content that you are consuming. Consuming. So we all know that we need to have a hook at the beginning, right? But you can have a longer reel. But if you have a hook at the beginning and then you just go off for a minute and a half telling all this stuff, listen, we, we need a little bit more curiosity than that. So a mid wheel hook is like I say a hook at the beginning and then I might say like a little piece of information and then I say something like maybe my hook is something about five secrets to go viral on your next reel. And then I say, and you're going to want to stick around till the end because the last one is the one that's going to get you the most followers. So those are two hooks, right? Like those are two things that are going to keep you watching to the end. Remember, we're looking for watch time, we're looking for shares. And so calling people out and having those hooks not just at the beginning but in the middle, that keeps them listening and watching till the end can, especially if you're doing like longer than a minute.
- [26:17]
Then you've got to add those middle hooks in there.
- [26:20]
Michael Stelzner
So just so I understand, in the middle of the video. Or after you've given your second tip or something, you're going to give an incentive to stick around to the end by saying, and I've got a bonus one that you're going to love. Something along those lines.
- [26:30]
Michelle Gifford
Yeah. Or saying, like, if you think that one's good, wait till you hear number five.
- [26:35]
Michael Stelzner
I see.
- [26:35]
Michelle Gifford
Or whatever it is, you know, but it's just breaking people of like, you know, they're listening, they're listening. That's like, oh, if they're getting bored, I'm going to make sure that they stick to the end because they don't want to miss it. Because people are motivated by curiosity. You open that loop, they got to close it. It's what storytelling is all about.
- [26:53]
Michael Stelzner
Shannon, what's something that you would recommend to people if they're thinking right now, okay, my strategy is kind of like blah, you know what I mean? What's something that you've been experimenting with lately? Do you have anything that you're trying or any tips that you're recommending to your clients?
- [27:06]
Shannon McKinstry
Yeah, I think one thing a lot of us are testing is the carousels. And it's funny because I don't really teach carousels a lot, but I've had great success with them. It's kind of funny. It's a great way to segue off what. Or piggyback off what Michelle just said. It's kind of like a mid rail hook. So your carousel. And you'll see them on every single carousel. I don't say every. I don't want to talk in absolutes, but most viral carousels you see will have that. Here's how I helped my client go viral this week. But it'll have a little extra thing under a subtitle, if you will, a bonus hook, and sometimes even more like the first title slide of a carousel. You want to pack that thing in so that it, that people go, dang, if I don't go to the end of this, I'm missing out. Right. The stakes are high. If I don't go through this and take five minutes and go through every single one. So what you want to do is like Michelle said, like, it's the same way as a reel. And it's kind of funny. I always tell people, carousel's real. They're, they're the same thing. They're just a different format. But, you know, you get your main hook right? Your basic what's the point? What's the topic? What are they going to get out of it? And then I Always say to people. And then that subtitle is, why do they care? Because you can, you know, it's. It's for dietitians. Why do people care about that ingredient or that recipe? Because it's three ingredients and no prep and blah, blah, blah. For a social media strategist like myself, why do I care? Because they can do this real in 5 minutes and get back to life again. You tap into those emotions. Why do they care? Because most hooks don't have an emotional element to it. And that's why so many people, like, I just had a day. I shared something. People are like, I tried and I flapped. I was like, there was no emotion. I mean, I'm nicer than that. I go, well, let's try this. But I look at it, I'm like, it's. There's no why do I care? It's because I can go to chat and type that in and get some information. Why do I care? Learning it from you. So any type of thing. So you can test this out on carousels and reels. So let's say you are a marketer helping people create a carousel. You know, here's my viral carousel formula from someone who's gone viral that gained 20,000 followers from one carousel. Why do I care? So test those out. I guarantee you'll quadruple your reach. Possibly. And again, if you are like, Shannon, I just can't get the right words. Ask, chat and look at the viral ones that you see. You can literally screenshot a reel or a carousel and put it into chat GBT and say, why did this go viral and how can I do it for myself? And it will tell you I love it.
- [29:31]
Michael Stelzner
Michelle. For anybody who is listening right now that just knows that their Instagram strategy is completely broken, they just know they're stuck in, as you call the 200 view jail or whatever. Where do we want to start? How do we audit what we've done to just figure out where in the world to start? Because some people have listened to you and, and these are all amazing ideas, but maybe there's a fundamental problem that they need to, like, reverse engineer. What's your thoughts?
- [29:57]
Michelle Gifford
First, take a breath. Listen. We will give you tough love to get you out there, and then we'll give you all the hugs and love and say, you're doing great. Okay? So I think it can be really scary. It was a lot easier when it was blog style, right? Where I could show up and say, five steps to whatever. Now, what's being required of businesses and brands is to show their person, their personality, right? And to put yourself out there. And that is so scary. And what I'm going to say, because I know there's a lot of different types of businesses listening, and those are businesses that maybe they aren't the face to their brand. But my prediction is that in 2026, because we've seen it in 2025, is that more big brands are going to be having a single person who is creating their content because people want to connect with someone. So. So you gotta get your face out there. And that's really tricky. So it doesn't have to be, but it feels like a lot when you get started. So I would do some research, okay? So you're. If you know what your niche is, I would start looking. Type in your keywords on the search bar. This is a practical, tactical part. Okay. Type in the keywords that you would use for your niche. Okay? And I want you to look at either the reels or the accounts. But if you look at the reels, you're going to start seeing what content, like what topics are doing well. You're going to see what kind of hooks are doing well. You're going to see what takes, like maybe they are doing a lot of green screens, or maybe they're doing carousels, or maybe they're just doing talking head, or maybe they're doing vlog style. You're going to start seeing some trends and patterns and you're going to, if you're paying attention, you can start tracking what's working with the hooks and with the topics. Use that information. You're not going to copy it, but you're going to use it. Because success leaves clues. Thank you, Tony Robbins. But when we do that, then we are not starting from our starting point, right? We can take. We are starting, like 10 steps up. And it kind of distances ourselves from the content we create, because I think that's a lot of the time. The problem is because we take so much time and we create from our heart and we put it out there and then we don't see views, and then it feels like something that's a personal attack, right? Instagram hates me. I never should have come, right? But if we take a step back and say, oh, Instagram's a marketing channel, and I am going to address it like any other marketing channel, with strategy, with research and with intention, then things change, right? Because then we're. We're tracking numbers. We're not making this about us. So I want you to do some research that's that's what I would do is start there, put in your niche, put in your keywords, start researching, see what's working, and then do it. Like I want you to say, just do a talking head reel if that feels good. Or a carousel. I just want you to try it. Because the great thing is, is that your content doesn't last like that long, right? So put it out there. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But if it does, it could change your life and the new algorithm. It doesn't matter how many followers you have. It doesn't. It just matters that a piece of content is good. So start creating more content till you get more comfortable and more confident and then your content creation gets easier.
- [33:13]
Michael Stelzner
Shannon, do you have anything you want to add on that?
- [33:15]
Shannon McKinstry
Oh, so good. Yeah, I think I'll add to the tactical advice. Cause I love that. Another thing you can do after you do what Michelle did again, then go to the Explorer page and type in other niches that you just enjoy consuming their content. You've heard me say I talk about food content a lot because that's what I consume. I love consuming recipes. I also love consuming content. Content about toddlers. Like, I love the therapists out there that are like, here one liners to say when your toddler's losing it at the grocery store. And I'm like, save, but look at that content. And again, do what I said earlier. Like, ask yourself. Well, first ask yourself, trust yourself before you trust AI. Ask yourself, why did this speak to me? Why did this grab me? The more you just study how you use Instagram, you'll realize it's definitely not out to get you. And like Michelle said, like, it's not. And when I have something floppy, I'm of course not praising it, but I'm like, okay, good. Why? Why did this not land? And I have to sit with it and really ask myself, like, what didn't resonate? Because that's all content has to do. Like Michelle said, you could have a hundred followers, five hundred followers. If it resonates and it gets sent out and people are saving it and sharing it, you're off to the races, right? But also just know that social media is a long game. This is not like a billboard we put up and all of a sudden people are knocking on your door. This is a long game. I've been doing this almost 10 years.
- [34:35]
Michelle Gifford
I didn't.
- [34:36]
Shannon McKinstry
I started my business in 2015. Ish. And then I started posting consistently 2018. So like, I've been Doing this a while. There's a lot of people in my field that have way more followers than me. I don't care. Like Michelle said, we are here for the community. We are here to truly test things out, experiment, have fun, pour into people. And when you really just sit back and remind yourself, why are you doing this? Like, it's okay. Test it out. Be okay with experimenting. Be okay with a real totally flopping. Remember, what are your people interested in? And lean on those. Like I keep saying all the time, identifiers, the situations, the scenarios. And I just want to say the last one, I wanted to say, if you are like, what's one thing to do right today to post. If you're like, what do I post? And I've talked to you about that before, Michael, on one of the podcasts you and I that you had me on, we talked about POV reels, right? I think people are like, oh, they're so da da da.
- [35:26]
Michelle Gifford
They.
- [35:27]
Shannon McKinstry
They're over. No, they are not. They are still going viral all the time. But you gotta do them right. This is where you start. If you keep practicing one to two POVs a week, one will eventually take off. It might take a few months, but those POVs keep practicing. You're a blank. And you find blank if you're product based. You know, you're tired of having to take your jewelry off at the gym, but you don't wanna find a spend a fortune. And you find these $35 hoops on Amazon, get the messaging down. Messaging first, social second. So you don't want it to say, hey, new jewelry drop. Hey, new Instagram feature, hey, new recipe to try. Why do we care and use those POVs to keep practicing. And once one takes off, you know the language. Like I remember I used to say, you have low reach and find my hooks. It's it. Okay, soon as I said your reaches trash and you find my favorite viral hooks and get out of 200 view jail viral. So you gotta tweak it, but you gotta get inside their heads and, and just keep trying and it's okay. And like I said, Michelle said, I mean look at my client.
- [36:29]
Michelle Gifford
What the.
- [36:30]
Shannon McKinstry
In the past week, 16,000 followers. Like it just takes one good piece of content and there we go.
- [36:35]
Michael Stelzner
Okay, my next question is a future question in the future in April of 2026. At the end of April, all three of us are going to be in Anaheim at the Social Media Marketing World 2026 conference. What I want to know from your perspective is in April, when you all are speaking, where do you think Instagram is going to be? Like, what are the features and strategies that you think are going to dominate in 2026? And what should people start testing and learning now? Now, I know you kind of hinted to this already, but I'm going to start with you, Michelle. Where do you see everything changing and going? Because you know it's going to change.
- [37:08]
Michelle Gifford
Yeah, I would definitely. I think we're going to be talking more about search and storytelling. So Instagram search has kind of lagged the SEO part compared to, like, TikTok and other things. And I feel like this year they have really stepped up their game and they're pushing like it's becoming more of a thing. And then that storytelling aspect, I think we've seen a ton of series, you know, where people have a series, and I think that's such a perfect way to highlight your brand and what you're about. And because Instagram now, you can link reels to each other. So, like, I can, you know, then it makes it easier for series to happen. And if one goes viral, then because it's linked to another, it can really just completely ramp up your page. And so I think people will have more series. I think we're going to continue to see that. I also think we'll start seeing more signature content. The people who, like, really take off, they have, like, a signature way that they create content. And so finding those series and signature content, I think is something that we'll be talking about in six months.
- [38:09]
Michael Stelzner
By the way, someone who's got a great series is Pat Flynn. Should I open it or keep it closed? I don't know if you saw this, but he's got these Pokemon cards.
- [38:16]
Michelle Gifford
Oh, my God.
- [38:17]
Michael Stelzner
And basically he's grew this massive following on both YouTube shorts reels and on TikTok millions. He's had billions of views on these videos. And it's not even his face. It's just him opening Pokemon cards and trying to see whether or not it made sense to keep the pack closed and if he would have gotten more money or if he opened it and then if he opened it, you know, and it's just like he's got this little jingle, should I open it or keep it closed? And it's just like, it's gone nuts for him. And now this is. All he does is just the same exact thing. And it's like they're all in a series and people go nuts and they consume them all. So I love what you said there, Pat Flynn.
- [38:50]
Michelle Gifford
If you would have Told me that he would be talking about Pokemon cards in 2025. I would have been, are you kidding me? And now here he is, he's like dominating because of like a very, very small niche that he's found out what works and he keeps doing it.
- [39:03]
Michael Stelzner
It's actually a really big niche Pokemon. But I mean, like, yeah, he's gone super narrow, though. You're absolutely right. Shannon, what's your thoughts again? We're talking about, like, where we think things are going to be next year. What's your thoughts on where it's heading?
- [39:16]
Shannon McKinstry
I think especially because again, it is interest based. Right. If I'm following you or Michelle, like you three years ago, I would probably see your content because it's more relationship based.
- [39:24]
Michelle Gifford
Right?
- [39:25]
Shannon McKinstry
Instagram's like, oh, Shannon just DM with Michael, let's show her his content. Now with it being more interest based, the big focus, I think for people like Michelle said, the series because once you become known for something, they're going to actually look you up when they log into the app. And I think that's the way the creators who are going to be killing it next year are the ones that are like, oh, wait, I got to see what Michelle. I know Michelle posts or whatever every day. I gotta go see. And like you said, I love the idea of like the really unique series. Like I've seen even some, like the fashion bloggers are like recreating this Pinterest look as a man in his 50s. Who's right? Like something that's so specific to that creator, not just recreating looks. It's like, again, what is something that you can share that is unique to you and that they know. Okay, I'm gonna go to Shannon's page today because I know every day she's got this or every week she's got this. So series broadcast channels. I just, I finally started a broadcast channel. It's been so much fun. And so people know if they're ever stuck, they're like, oh, let me go see what Shannon posted in that. So getting people to actually type your name in to then go to your page is I think going to be the. One of the biggest measures for success. And maybe not so that we can see obviously as a metric, this is. Graham's going to say, someone searched your name this many times. That would be cool. But as far as like profile visits, people who return. And again, that's what I think because I know Michelle mentioned TikTok. While I love TikTok, as a consumer, I'm usually there on the FYP. I'm not following. You might get a lot of followers, but that doesn't mean really much at all. Over there, it's who's coming and visiting you daily. So it's almost like, think about it. You want to literally think of it like I am a channel. You're NBC, you're Bravo. Like people want to actually pick up Instagram and go to your channel and that's the content you're going to need to be creating if you want to keep getting those views up.
- [41:10]
Michael Stelzner
If you want to meet Shannon and Michelle in person and really take your Instagram game up, you're definitely going to want to get your tickets to Social media Marketing World 2026. Shannon, if people want to connect with you, where do you want to send them? And if they want to do business with you, where do you want to send them? And I'll ask you also, Michelle, we'll start with you, Shannon.
- [41:26]
Michelle Gifford
Okay. Yeah.
- [41:26]
Shannon McKinstry
My podcast. Good content. New episodes are every Tuesday. They're 10 minutes. They're easy. I give you one quick win to take and run with so you can get on with your life. And then I've got the Rails Lab, which is is a membership where I hand you your reels ideas every week. And it's industry specific so you don't have to do hardly any thinking, which is always fun.
- [41:44]
Michael Stelzner
And then you got a URL you want to send them to?
- [41:46]
Shannon McKinstry
Yeah, just Shannon mckinstry.com.
- [41:47]
Michael Stelzner
Perfect. Michelle, how about you?
- [41:49]
Michelle Gifford
Yep. Come find me on instagram. It's @IAM Michelle Gifford. Also my website is IAM Michelle Gifford.com I have a podcast, it's called the Social Strategist where I teach you all about not just Instagram strategy, but social media marketing strategy and beyond. I have an agency where we will help you create your content for you. And I have Club 10 where every week I send you your content plan with your audio hooks, all the things. It's just 10 bucks a month.
- [42:16]
Michael Stelzner
Ladies, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us today.
- [42:19]
Michelle Gifford
Thank you. Thank you.
- [42:20]
Michael Stelzner
Hey, if you missed anything, we took.
- [42:22]
All the notes for you over@socialmediaexaminer.com 696. If you're new to the show, be sure to follow us.
- [42:29]
If you've been a longtime listener, we.
- [42:30]
Would love a review.
- [42:31]
And you can also share this with your friends. You can tag me on Facebook, LinkedIn or X.
- [42:36]
And do check out our other shows, the AI Explored podcast and the Social.
- [42:40]
Media marketing talk show. This brings us to the end of.
- [42:43]
The Social Media Marketing Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Stelzner.
- [42:46]
I'll be back with you next week. I hope you make the best out.
- [42:49]
Of your day and may your marketing keep evolving.
- [42:52]
The Social Media Marketing Podcast is a production of Social Media Examiner.
- [43:01]
This episode is brought to you by Social Media Marketing World happening April 28th to 30th, 2026 in Anaheim, California. For the first time ever, get two world class conferences under one roof. Social Media Marketing World and AI Business World. Master social marketing strategies. Deep dive into AI, connect with thousands of fellow marketers all in one incredible experience. Plus, you're walking distance to Disneyland. Turn your professional development into a family vacation. Ready to level up your marketing? Grab your tickets now@social mediamarketingworld.in fox.