Social Media Marketing Podcast

Episode: Zero-Click Challenge: Why Marketers Must Go Back to Fundamentals

Host: Michael Stelzner
Guest: Rand Fishkin, CEO & Co-Founder of SparkToro
Release Date: September 25, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Michael Stelzner welcomes Rand Fishkin to tackle one of the most urgent challenges in digital marketing: the rise of "zero-click" content. Together, they explore how marketers must adapt as social platforms, search engines, and AI increasingly restrict the flow of traffic away from their domains. The episode dives into the implications of these changes, debunks AI-related job fears, and guides listeners back to classic, foundational marketing strategies rooted in influence and brand, rather than just clicks and direct attribution.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is “Zero-Click Everything”? (04:03)

• Definition: Platforms increasingly keep users inside their ecosystems, answering queries and delivering content directly, resulting in fewer outbound clicks to marketers’ websites.

  • Rand Fishkin:

    “Google, followed by Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Reddit, YouTube, TikTok… all realized it's in their interest to keep you on their site, not send traffic to other places. And so Google started answering search queries right in results… And then AI hit, and the AI tools, as you know, send out almost no traffic at all and almost never reference the sources…” [04:24]

• Implication for Marketers:
  What once was a major source of audience (site traffic) is now diminishing, not necessarily due to marketers’ failings but due to shifts in platform priorities.

2. The Paradigm Shift (05:56 – 13:03)

• Historical Context:

  • Marketing attribution has shifted:
    • Old approach: Implied conversion through broad, unmeasurable brand initiatives (e.g., billboards, TV).
    • Digital era: Narrow, direct attribution (e.g., pixels, analytics).
    • Now: Attribution models are breaking due to platforms suppressing outbound links and AI not crediting sources.

• Rand's Key Quote:

  “We were unwittingly the architects of our own demise.” [06:31]

• Modern Analogy:
  Just as tech companies oversold attribution, current “zero-click” reality returns marketers to relying on implied metrics, testing, and measurement—much like pre-digital days.

3. Offline Influence & Zero-Click Marketing (13:11 – 20:25)

• San Francisco Outdoor Ads:
  Companies plastering ads in the city — including many unknown AI/tech startups — aren’t measuring direct attribution. Instead, their goal is influencing a small, high-value demographic (venture capitalists, execs).

  “These small number of people, maybe they make up 5% of San Francisco Bay Area…that's who they're trying to influence. And they believe it's more effective to buy outdoor advertising…they don't care about the attribution, which is actually pretty smart.” —Rand Fishkin [14:45]

• Zero-Click Marketing’s Core:

  • Success comes from influencing audience perceptions without requiring a click.
  • Marketers must “be present in all the places your audience pays attention.”

4. How to Approach Marketing in a Zero-Click World (16:42 – 25:15)

• Be Strategic about Influence:

  • Focus on platforms and publications that actually reach target demographics.
  • Example: Fashion influencer (Dverk) making brand recommendations that influence user perception—without a single click.

  “If you think about how you're influenced in your daily life, a massive amount of it is not through: I saw something and then I clicked…” —Rand [16:46]

  • Advice for Marketers:
    • Learn your audience’s ecosystems.
    • Participate and be seen, even where direct clicks are not possible.

• Products That Inspire Word-of-Mouth:

  • It's not enough to make something people want; it must be something people want to talk about.
    • "Making a product that people want to talk about is a superpower because it amplifies everything your marketing does." —Rand [22:14]

5. AI, Jobs, and Changing Roles (27:18 – 32:37)

• Will AI Replace Marketers?

  • Macro data does not support the idea that AI is eliminating marketing or developer jobs at scale.

  “You cannot look at [employment] data and statistically find evidence for rising adoption of AI leading to lower employment for these types of professionals.” —Rand [27:23]

• Being AI-Literate as Table Stakes:

  • Much like Office software in the ‘90s, basic AI skills will be a baseline requirement.
  • AI primarily acts as an amplifier and enabler for marketers.

  “AI is a software tool…a lot like Excel…for some reason the media hype around it wasn’t ‘it’s going to replace jobs’, it just sort of happened.” —Rand [31:18]

6. AI's Impact on Search and User Behavior (32:37 – 41:04)

• More AI, More Search?

  • Recent clickstream data suggests that users who adopt AI tools (like ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude) increase their Google searches, counter to the expectation they’d use Google less. [33:15]
  • Michael: “Is it possible it could be affirming whether it’s true or not, by doing a Google search as a backup data source?”
    • Rand: “It’s totally possible.” [34:44]

• Zero-Click Searches Rising:

  • Even though searches are increasing, outbound clicks are declining: “Two thirds of people who search Google never leave Google’s ecosystem.” [39:49]

  “Both things are true. Google can be searched way more…it was two or three years ago. And there can be way less traffic available because Google has reduced the amount of traffic it sends out to a significant degree.” —Rand [36:46]

7. Optimizing for the AI-First Era (41:58 – 47:48)

• The New Marketing Challenge:

  • Marketers now must influence the answers and options surfaced by AI and search summaries, not just hope for links and clicks.

• How to Influence AI Results:

  • Stay visible and reputable across multiple digital spaces (websites, social, forums, industry publications).
  • Be cited and present wherever conversations about your space happen—especially those that may inform language models.

  “The only thing that seems to consistently work...is be present in all the places your audience pays attention.”

• PR & Influence—not just SEO:

  • Classic PR, strategic participation in industry discussions, and ensuring brand presence across media are critical.

8. Audience Research & Practical Tools (48:17 – 51:56)

• Finding Your Audience “Watering Holes”:

  • Modern tools (like SparkToro) help marketers identify the websites, forums, social channels, and content their target audience actually consumes.

  “[SparkToro] say, ‘You describe your audience to us’... and then analyze their behavior: what websites they visit, podcasts, YouTube channels, subreddits, etc.” —Rand [48:29]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Rand Fishkin:

  "We were unwittingly the architects of our own demise." [06:31]

• On product and virality:

  “The real challenge is not to make something people want, it’s to make something people want to talk about.” [21:30]

• On AI as a Tool:

  “AI is a software tool. …a lot like Excel.” [31:18]

• On current search trends:

  “Google had their biggest search growth year in the last six years. …But two-thirds of people who search Google never leave Google's ecosystem.” [35:10 & 39:49]

• Michael Stelzner:

  “The idea that maybe we need to go back to fundamentals…” [19:09] "If you missed anything, we took all the notes for you..." [52:06]

Timestamps of Important Segments

• Zero-Click Everything Explained: 04:03 – 05:56
• Attribution Models Breaking Down: 08:26 – 13:03
• San Francisco Outdoor Ad Example: 13:11 – 16:42
• Zero-Click Marketing & Influence: 16:42 – 20:00
• Make Something People Want to Talk About: 21:30 – 25:15
• AI & Job Security: 27:18 – 32:37
• AI’s Real Impact on Search: 32:37 – 41:04
• How To Influence AI/Zero-Click Results: 41:58 – 47:48
• Using SparkToro for Audience Research: 48:17 – 51:14

Actionable Takeaways

• Shift your focus from driving traffic to building brand presence and influence across audience touchpoints.
• Be seen in the sources, communities, and media that AI and search engines reference.
• Accept attribution ambiguity; invest in marketing that impacts audience perception—even if it doesn’t generate trackable clicks.
• Gain basic AI fluency and adapt creatively, seeing AI as a tool for leverage, not a threat.
• Return to fundamentals: understand your audience, stay relevant, and build products people genuinely want to discuss and evangelize.

For more resources, links, and show notes:
SocialMediaExaminer.com/podcast/685