125: Hidden ingredients with John Oliver | Soder Podcast | EP 123

Summary

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Soder Podcast Episode 125: "Hidden Ingredients with John Oliver"

Date: March 17, 2026
Host: Dan Soder
Guest: John Oliver

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Episode Overview

In this lively and deeply insightful conversation, comedian Dan Soder welcomes satirist and "Last Week Tonight" host John Oliver. They riff on the parallels between comedy and other professions, the evolution and grind of standup, the perils of making news entertaining, the "too much cheese" of American culture and politics, and what it means to be an outsider—whether onstage, in a new country, or in a shifting media landscape. Humor, honesty, and sharp social critique are on full display, making for an episode that’s both hilarious and thought-provoking.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Comedy, Standup, and Industry Gatekeepers

• Dog Treats as Brain Games: Dan starts by drawing an analogy between dog toys and primal motivation, transitioning into how comics are driven by fundamental needs.
  "You get pure primal motivation... My father in law bought it. We're like, Mike, this is great. You refill it. Its problem is it sounds like a truck stop blowjob…" — Dan Soder (03:00)

• The Standup/Worker Union Analogy: They humorously compare sex worker unions and attempts at comedian unionization, noting how both groups have difficulty organizing due to constant undercutting.
  "There's always a comic willing to take less..." — Dan Soder (05:00)
  "The Venn diagram of sex workers and comedians... Both think the other group is not an ideal way to earn a living." — John Oliver (05:10)

• Comedy’s Overinflated Importance: Both reflect on how standup is often granted too much societal significance and the reality is, it's rarely a "need."
  "It's never been a need, stand up." — John Oliver (05:55)

• Industry Changes: They lament the vanished days of gatekeepers, comparing NYC, LA, and UK comedy scenes—and how online platforms have democratized (and destabilized) standup exposure. "Now there really isn't that person... there isn't the Caesar's Thumb." — Dan Soder (07:37)

2. Comedy Abroad and the Outsider Advantage

• US vs. UK Comedy: Dan recounts his first Edinburgh Fringe Festival and how exposure to UK comedy altered his relationship with the art. "I left coming back knowing a whole lot more people, being like, oh, I think my relationship with standup was fundamentally changed..." — Dan Soder (10:26)

• The Benefits & Pitfalls of Being an Outsider: John talks about how his critique of the US changed as he sunk roots, shifting from "you" to "we" in his writing. "I started changing the way that we were writing... after doing stand up here, what position that you are occupying..." — John Oliver (24:03)

3. Making News Funny (and Dangerous)

• Last Week Tonight’s Approach: John describes the careful balancing act of aggregating solid journalism and then writing accessible, funny commentary—evoking the "Chopped" cooking show as a metaphor for giving writers good "ingredients." "We try to make sure we're at least giving them material... like an episode of Chopped..." — John Oliver (17:55)

• Journalism’s Entertaining Turn: They discuss the risks of candy-coating serious topics and the role of clowns as society's accidental truth-tellers. "We're making the clowns be the parent at the birthday party..." — Dan Soder (18:18)

• The Problem of Cool Politicians: Dan and John mock the American obsession with charismatic leaders, longing instead for boring, competent governance. "I want the president to be boring." — Dan Soder (19:19)
  "My tolerance for the president being cool has got pretty, pretty low now." — John Oliver (19:26)

4. "Too Much Cheese" Metaphor

• American Excess in Politics & Culture: Dan develops a comedic metaphor of "too much cheese" to illustrate America’s tendency toward overdoing the entertaining or indulgent at the expense of substance—a motif that becomes a running gag. "You're putting too much cheese in it... Can I get a salad?" — Dan Soder (20:15)
  "Feels to me like you're working out a cheese bit in real time. That's too much cheese." — John Oliver (20:44)

• Cheese Bit Callback: The “too much cheese” catchphrase recurs throughout, highlighting how entertainers get trapped by their own branding. "If you think this episode's not gonna be called Too much cheese, you're fucked in the head." — Dan Soder (21:04)

5. Immigration and Assimilation

• Being a Critic from Within: John explains how his perspective shifted from critiquing America as a foreigner to becoming complicit and communal as a long-term resident. "You can't really play that card anymore... I then gradually changed that to we, because I'd been there for long enough..." — John Oliver (24:03)

• Travel and Local Stereotypes: They riff on regional differences, experiences arriving in New York, and the indignities of being "the mountain person" from outside The City.

6. The Grind (and Addiction) of Standup

• Balancing Standup and Life: Both share candid stories of balancing relationships, the compulsion to perform nightly, and family pressures.
  "It's immediate gratification, immediate evasion." — Dan Soder (50:27)
  "There are lots of reasons to do it, but... it's just a tough balance." — John Oliver (50:27)

• Standup as Self-Defense: They praise comics like Maria Bamford, who turn darkness into relentless, innovative comedy. "I always liked finding people that were funny because they had to be... You look at Maria Bamford and you go, she has to be funny to survive." — Dan Soder (36:32)

7. When News Gets Ugly

• Researching Powerful Foes: John recounts resistance and intimidation tactics from the Sackler family while covering opioid crisis stories—and the limits of “charm offensives.” "I can't care about that, though. Genuinely, to my bones, don't care..." — John Oliver (39:04)

• Social Media Schadenfreude: Dan admits to finding catharsis in reading shaming comments on Sackler family members’ influencer posts. "I would just read the comments... it brought me this, like, weird joy..." — Dan Soder (40:50)

• Coping with Dark News as Comedy: John describes humor as a survival tool in digesting the world’s darkness. "If we didn't... write jokes about incredibly depressing world events, I don't know how to deal with depressing world events without them." — John Oliver (43:11)

8. Political Cynicism and the American Double-Loop

• Cycles of Outrage and Fatigue: They reflect on recurring political scandals, public amnesia, and the American tendency to fail upward. "If America is anything at its best and worst, it's the double loop." — John Oliver (48:23)

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Notable Quotes

• On Standup’s Overstated Importance:
  "It's never been a need, stand up." — John Oliver (05:55)

• On Unionizing Comedians and Sex Workers:
  "There's always a comic willing to take less." — Dan Soder (05:00)

• On Outsider Perspective:
  "Expressing yourself as an outsider while increasingly not feeling that way is an interesting position to write comedy from." — John Oliver (29:05)

• On Comedy as Self-Defense:
  "You look at Maria Bamford and you go, she has to be funny to survive." — Dan Soder (36:32)

• On Politics & Entertainment:
  "I want the president to be boring." — Dan Soder (19:19)

• On Researching the Sacklers:
  "If you think this is going to be a charm offensive, please let me save you a trip." — John Oliver (39:39)

• On Coping with Dark News:
  "If we didn't... write jokes about incredibly depressing world events, I don't know how to deal with depressing world events without them." — John Oliver (43:11)

• On America’s Capacity for Chaos:
  "If America is anything at its best and worst is the double loop." — John Oliver (48:23)

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Notable & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Dog Brain Games & Comedy Motivation (02:18–03:15):
  Laugh-out-loud riff on dog treats, primal motivation, and unfortunate sound effects.

• Sex Worker vs. Standup Unionization (03:35–05:10):
  Extended analogy between sex work and comedy with biting wit.

• Overinflated Comedy & Check Spot Realities (05:47–12:18):
  Deconstructing the "necessity" of standup and lampooning the check spot in US clubs.

• Too Much Cheese Bit (20:15–21:55):
  The "cheese" becomes a metaphor for American excess; “too much cheese” is declared the episode's new catchphrase.

• Sackler Family and Ethics of Journalism (39:02–41:30):
  John shares chilling (and comedic) stories of covering the opioid crisis and powerful families’ reaction.

• Comic/Relationship Balancing Act (49:55–52:58):
  Both comics discuss, with warmth and humor, the tension between stage time and intimacy.

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Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in mixing sharp comedy, media criticism, and personal revelation. With pitch-perfect chemistry, Dan Soder and John Oliver explore what drives comics, how media and entertainment shape (and often distort) important issues, and the enduring power—and danger—of adding "too much cheese" to any recipe for public life. Through gags, anecdotes, and brilliant meta-commentary, they invite listeners not only to laugh but also to think about what really matters.

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Transcript

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[Dan Soder]

Hey everybody. Hope you enjoy the episode today. Golden Retriever of Comedy Tour still going strong this week. Dallas, you sold out you sweet sweet beautiful city. Houston. We're going to be there Friday, Oklahoma City on Saturday. Dansoder.com for tickets and the tour keeps moving along Huntington Beach. We added a show in Long island, dancehoter.com for those and then I will see you in Charlotte, Durham, Cleveland, Columbus, the cities that keep on coming. Dansoder.com all the shows are listed. Go buy tickets before we tape this hour. I hope you can see it. This has been easily the greatest tour time on the road I've ever had in my life. So come check out these shows. Dan Soder.com enjoy the episode. John Oliver was really cool. Also a huge garbage time fan. We didn't get it on camera but he popped when he saw Katie's hat. His that made me very happy. My dog has this favorite treat that's like a brain game for her where we just start recording. It's a my my my father in law bought her this. It's like a ball that you put a treat in and then they figure out how to lick the treat. Very it's great for dogs. They love it.

[John Oliver]

Like a brain game is that kind of it's like moving.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah it like it stimulates her in a way. We live in an apartment. She doesn't have a backyard. You have to find ways so that she's not like I want to jump out of this window and and you

[John Oliver]

get to get a sense of whether your dog is I'm gonna eat all of this. I'm gonna find a way to digest.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah.

[John Oliver]

Whatever this is.

[Dan Soder]

To get pure primal motivation.

[John Oliver]

Okay.

[Dan Soder]

Of her going, I'm gonna get this treat. This is the most delicious thing on the planet. So we loved it. My father in law bought it. We're like, Mike, this is great. You know, you refill it. It's problem is it sounds like a truck stop blowjob. So when you're in the room with her, all you hear is like. And I, you know, I was very excited you're coming on the podcast and I was doing a little. All right, what do I do with Myrtle during the podcast? I don't want her bothering people. And I go, I'll give her a treat and then we're going to get you. And I just hear it like. And I'm like, I can't have that as the background noise of me and John Oliver talking.

[John Oliver]

Because when you're that specific about a reference, that is not something you can ever forget.

[Dan Soder]

You can't forget that. And that'll stay with you.

[John Oliver]

I'm talking about a working truck stop.

[Dan Soder]

I'm talking about a lot lizard before

[John Oliver]

they automated the trucking industry. I'm talking at its peak.

[Dan Soder]

Can you please deep dive into what's going to happen to lot lizards when a high. When automated?

[John Oliver]

There's going to be a problem. There's going to be a period of adjustment.

[Dan Soder]

I need you doing 35 on the lot lizards.

[John Oliver]

Like in any industry, there will be a period of transition and you need to take care of the baseline workers who are not expendable. That's the thing.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah. These women can't drink oil. That's going to kill them. You can't have them sucking off robot truck drivers. They'll die. That oil will erode their, their esophagus, their stomach. They will die.

[John Oliver]

You have to. It's like any workforce, they need to be protected. Do you know this is why unions exist?

[Dan Soder]

This is. Hello, Hello? Unions.

[John Oliver]

I'm ringing the bell of saying it. Where are you unions?

[Dan Soder]

You protect the hookers. They've always protected the hookers. The barnacle on the ship.

[John Oliver]

Yes.

[Dan Soder]

Of unions.

[John Oliver]

That's right.

[Dan Soder]

Are our sex workers.

[John Oliver]

Don't tell me that the oldest profession in the world cannot survive automated trucking because I don't think that's going to be true.

[Dan Soder]

Could you imagine if sex workers actually unionized and became like as strong as the Teamsters?

[John Oliver]

They've tried. Like there have been moves towards it. Yeah.

[Dan Soder]

I wonder if only fans put the Money in a place where they go, we really have to unionize this. I would maybe because that's what unionizes anything. When a lot of money comes into it.

[John Oliver]

Like with stand ups.

[Dan Soder]

Right.

[John Oliver]

Like when they, when they tried it

[Dan Soder]

in LA and they tried it here too. It didn't work. It didn't work at all. Because here's what they didn't. Just like sex workers.

[John Oliver]

Yes.

[Dan Soder]

There's always a comic willing to take less.

[John Oliver]

That's the problem. You are dealing with two groups with a lot in common.

[Dan Soder]

The Venn diagram of sex workers and comedians.

[John Oliver]

Both think that the other group is not an ideal way to earn a living. Both are right and wrong in equal measure.

[Dan Soder]

Nothing will hurt your confidence more than just a street walker in Indianapolis going, what are you doing? That's 50 every year.

[John Oliver]

Heard that set was rough last night. Hey, hey, hey.

[Dan Soder]

I'm. We're both standing outside a steak and shake, but only one of us is going in for a Frisco melt. Yeah, it is. That's. I would say my problem with the. The standup of the last 15 years were how many people overinflated its importance.

[John Oliver]

Oh, how do you mean?

[Dan Soder]

Like people going like, no, the world needs stand up.

[John Oliver]

Oh, that is. Oh, my God. That is. Sure. That's an overinflation. Well past bursting point.

[Dan Soder]

That's what I mean.

[John Oliver]

It's never been a need stand up.

[Dan Soder]

Most of the time we were just there as a way before we got executed.

[John Oliver]

Yes, that's right. You go, you don't see cave paintings and the guy standing at the side saying, what is up with those mammoths?

[Dan Soder]

He's like fire bad. And other. Other, Other. Other cavemen are going, zach, I've.

[John Oliver]

We all know that you've just got the confidence to say it to people.

[Dan Soder]

Oh, yeah, the sky God chose you. The industry yawn. The saber tooth. When you. Last week, tonight, you know, I mean, I've, I've known. I got to do your stand up show. Which was great.

[John Oliver]

Yeah.

[Dan Soder]

Which was. Thank you for that. I think New York City, there's a generation of New York City stand up comedians that genuinely. In fact, you know who I was on the phone with today? Nate Bargettsi. And he said John Oliver got it before a lot of people.

[John Oliver]

How old? How.

[Dan Soder]

So about his stand up. People weren't booking him to do stand up.

[John Oliver]

Oh, sure, sure. Yeah.

[Dan Soder]

And you put Nate on. Yeah, I think that was like, that's what I mean. There's a whole generation of us where I think Comedy Central might have not really Warmed to the idea of us doing a lot of sets.

[John Oliver]

Well, sure. And it was a push at that quote. It was. That it was not always an easy sell.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah.

[John Oliver]

With comedy, I remember in that first season, I think there was. They had some pushback to Maria Bamford being on. I think what if we're going to argue about this, we're about to have some really rough arguments because this is. There is no discussion to be had here.

[Dan Soder]

Well, what I liked about it is a lot of times and. And it's so different now because there is no industry and there or the standup industry has fallen to like people doing YouTube and making their own.

[John Oliver]

Right.

[Dan Soder]

Where there really isn't that person that go, there isn't the Caesar's Thumb. There isn't the. Yes, they can be on tv. No, they can't be on tv. What you did and what I loved about the show and being a part of the show was it was unrestrictive in a way that late nights weren't.

[John Oliver]

Yeah, for sure. That's what was. Was always great about the Edinburgh Festival in the same way, because all the international festivals, there is a season thumb involved. Like you get invited to Montreal, I think that barely functions as a festival in the true sense of that word.

[Dan Soder]

Right.

[John Oliver]

Melbourne, much closer to, like that festival atmosphere, but still curated internationally on a large scale.

[Dan Soder]

There is still a person saying, yes or no.

[John Oliver]

Edinburgh. It is an open door policy and you'll get all the good and all the bad that comes with that and the bad makes everything better.

[Dan Soder]

And I got to do my first fringe in 2019. And the advice I got from every comedian was, go watch shows. Yeah. Because there are going to be times where you feel so insecure and horrible and then you're going to be times where you're like, I don't think we're in the same field where you just watch it and you go, yeah. What did I sit through?

[John Oliver]

Yeah.

[Dan Soder]

But it was something that I had been underexposed to UK comedy and what I saw there really opened my eyes to, like, it's kind of the way that New York used to on LA all the time when I moved here, we're like, la, they suck. They don't write jokes. And then Colin Quinn was like, they perform their asses off.

[John Oliver]

Yeah.

[Dan Soder]

And you don't appreciate it and then you see it and you go, oh, they're way better performers than we are.

[John Oliver]

Right.

[Dan Soder]

And they should be there where TV and films are made.

[John Oliver]

Sure.

[Dan Soder]

It makes sense.

[John Oliver]

That's right.

[Dan Soder]

We're in a tight Room writing jokes.

[John Oliver]

Yes.

[Dan Soder]

In New York City.

[John Oliver]

And I think that the extreme on the other side of that is what was happening in the uk, certainly there, where there is almost no polish to a fault. It's almost like pieces of wood passing themselves off as shelves there.

[Dan Soder]

It was one time, Katie and I were at a concert in Brooklyn, and we were looking for a restaurant, and we went to this place that looked like a very nice restaurant, and we said, hi, can we. Can we see your food menu? And the guy gave us a menu and went, I want to let you know all our food is fish in cans. And we were like, why would we eat here? Why? You're just gonna hand us a king of the sea and then I gotta drain it? Like, what is this?

[John Oliver]

Just push a grade C rating across the table.

[Dan Soder]

It's crazy. They go, if it's sick, it's really your fault. You opened a bad can. But I had a feeling like that when I went to the uk and I was like, oh, you guys are just putting raw materials on stage now. Some of those people, you're like, that might be one of the most talented people I've ever seen in my. People that can hold a room.

[John Oliver]

Yes. And also it becomes like a part of, like, a biological clock that you do Edinburgh each year. So the idea is you make an hour.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah, ditch it.

[John Oliver]

Make an hour again. If you're not better in five years, this was not the field for you.

[Dan Soder]

Well, there are also people that you see it. And then there's. There's parts of me, like, where you're like, I wish you would. Had three years with that hour.

[John Oliver]

Yeah. Oh, for sure.

[Dan Soder]

Because there's. Because you're, like, blown away, but you leave going like, I left coming back knowing a whole lot more people of being like, oh, I think my relationship with standup was fundamentally changed by seeing all those shows.

[John Oliver]

Definitely. And I think it becomes. So there's different ways to treat it, and it's being treated either as a launching pad. It can function for a very few people for that, but it will definitely get your learning curve steeper. And there's nothing you want more when you're starting off comedy than that. You just want to get better, faster.

[Dan Soder]

Yes. And it is a. It's a speed run on you running an hour. Michelle Wolf, though, because her and Michael Che were the two people I was closest to that had done it. And she was like, when you come back, you're gonna feel like a superhero. And I came back in the first set I did. I was like, Oh, I was like, oh, my God. Because UK audiences listen. There's a weird thing that they do that, that you up as an American, Whereas Americans, you're fighting. When you come up in the clubs here, you're fighting chicken wings, drink specials, buckets of beer.

[John Oliver]

Yes.

[Dan Soder]

You guys don't fight buckets of beer. But your audiences are going, see it out.

[John Oliver]

I remember reading about what you call

[Dan Soder]

it, the check, check spot. Oh, that's how I came up here. That's how I made my bones in New York.

[John Oliver]

Yeah, that is. That really does put you in your places of performance saying, let's clear these checks before you finish. So if you can allow for the transaction taking place, that is the bedrock of what we're getting here.

[Dan Soder]

A full transaction. A full transaction. You're bringing American Express in, a Visa, MasterCard. They're getting involved.

[John Oliver]

You might be splitting a check at a table, dude.

[Dan Soder]

I can't tell you, John, how many times I watch people split like three buckets of beer. And it was me just bombing in front of Patrice o' Neill when he's waiting to go up.

[John Oliver]

This is the thing though, isn't it? Like you say, like this goes back to you saying people putting stand up on a pedestal saying, this is the most important profession. Really?

[Dan Soder]

No, really.

[John Oliver]

I'm not sure other key professions are dealing with a check spot.

[Dan Soder]

No one is going, hey, as we plan our invasion of Venezuela, I want you all to look at your cable bills. I've got all your cable bills.

[John Oliver]

I don't think we have a bucket of this.

[Dan Soder]

And then what's funny is now, even with the check spots, now comedy clubs are doing a thing where they're going, put your phone in a bag. So now we're watching the American public education system fail in real time when people have forgotten long division. Oh, sure, because they don't have their phones and they're going, 40 divided by four divided by four. Come on, we're standing at it. It's just a decimal point over. Guys, what is this? That's where the disappointment lies. That's where I could have told you our educational system was on the rocks 15 years ago. Where I'd go, I'm watching the math in the room. This isn't.

[John Oliver]

There you go. There's the stand up functioning as the canaries in the coal mine. Or the observers of the Canaries. Yeah, this thing they. If you can't slide the decimal point, we're in trouble as a society.

[Dan Soder]

We are the lunatic that runs into

[John Oliver]

the saloon when that solar flare knocks out electronics. The purge is not going to take a business day.

[Dan Soder]

But I will tell you how much we can split it by. I will tell. I'll show you the old school division ways of doing that. I mean, I think, oh, the weather's getting warm. Somewhere between, you know, it's getting. Not short sleeve shirt, but it's getting like, this is nice. It's getting nice. Well, guess what? You want the food to match that winter. You want some thick soups, you want some heavy meals and then it gets light out and you're like, dude, I forgot. I'm almost gonna be in a bathing suit here. Maybe I should clean it up. Maybe go. No refined sugars, no artificial sweeteners. You know, you need quality, functional ingredients. That's why you get factor meals. Always fresh, never frozen, ready in about two minutes. There's no prep, no stress. You can actually stick to your goals. So check out factor meals and they also do specific diets. If you do want a high protein diet, a Mediterranean diet, GLP1 support, ready to eat salads, all available at factor Meals. If you head to FactorMeals.com Soder50OFF and use the code SODOR50OFF to get 50% off and free breakfast free a year offer only valid for new factor customers with code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase. So make healthier eating easy with factor guys. I'm not gonna lie. I don't know how to buy clothes. I don't think I've ever known how to buy clothes. I see people wear clothes and I go, I think that would be cool. And then I put it on and I go, what the hell was I thinking? I just want to feel confident in the way that I look in my style, without the work. So I know you've been scrolling those websites looking for something simple, nice pair of jeans. But you know what you get? Stitch fix. Stitch fix is a way to get the clothes that you want. You get a fix box with clothes that actually fit and make sense for your life. If you're dressing for the work week, for weekends, whatever you want, it saves you time. You look great and feel confident in what you're wearing. So get started [e-mail] Soder to get $20 off your first order. That's Stitch Fix. Fix.com Soder go get some new threads, dude. When you go from the Daily show to last week to yeah, last week, tonight and you start doing these in depth pieces, did you watch the people around you, like start recommending things that they want you to see?

[John Oliver]

Oh, de you mean like recommending stories

[Dan Soder]

or like recommending like someone you like your uncle being like, oh, hey, what's up with this, Bill? There was. Take this apart.

[John Oliver]

I will never forget this. I was doing stand up somewhere and this woman came up on a plane, said, I've got an idea for a show. That is the thing where you think, what exactly are we doing here? You should really look into child protective Services. And like, my instinct is, I don't know, man, that's real dark. She starts talking about it like three minutes later going, I will look into that also.

[Dan Soder]

That is such a. I need to hear more because. Which angle are you coming from? Because they took my kid.

[John Oliver]

Yeah.

[Dan Soder]

And they shouldn't have taken my kid. And, you know, I don't think you want a story.

[John Oliver]

How are you smoking on the plane?

[Dan Soder]

Yeah. She goes, oh, I got a whole theory. I got names. I mean, that's. That's what I think. You know what's great is you guys write it so well and it's so funny. And it's so funny that that's what I think is like what journalism has to do now. Well, it's like find a new way. Like a candy coating for.

[John Oliver]

That can send you in some dicey directions, though. I know that is.

[Dan Soder]

I don't like it.

[John Oliver]

That is not journalism area to make it entertaining.

[Dan Soder]

And it wasn't. The fourth estate was supposed to be boring, but so is policy.

[John Oliver]

So with the. The mo. The majority that. The vast majority, we are aggregating the work of good journalism to then build something different. To try and put a whole bunch of stuff into one place and then write jokes on top of it. But in doing that, you might be interested in this. Like, we want to put the writers in a position to succeed where it is possible to write jokes in the pot. And we. We've got better at that. Like the first few years, occasionally we were giving. Right. Is just the worst ingredients restoring saying. So write jokes. And you can see the point of saying, I can do this maybe four times. Then I. I don't know how you think. There is nothing I can work with here to get to something funny. So we try and make sure that we're at least giving them material like an episode of Chopped that could.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah, you.

[John Oliver]

That could make a joke.

[Dan Soder]

You're not doing. You're not doing Iron Chef and giving them a car motor.

[John Oliver]

Yeah.

[Dan Soder]

And you make that edible. Yeah.

[John Oliver]

And you want to write about the material. Not have to write jokes off to the side all the time. Because then you're just like throwing flares out saying, oh, is here's a funny thing not connected to what we're talking about at all. You can get away with that a couple of times. Otherwise it feels like you're making two different shows.

[Dan Soder]

I think that's why a lot of us feel so crazy right now, is because we're making the clowns be the parent at the birthday party.

[John Oliver]

Well, that is definitely true because I. I think the inversion that's taken place over certainly the last, say, 10 years.

[Dan Soder]

Ten years is that it used to

[John Oliver]

be you would take something of substance and then you'd put sugar into it. But what you have to do is kind of turn that around and take something which is sugar based and reverse engineering to tell people why it's actually important.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah.

[John Oliver]

Why a very dumb thing this very ridiculous human being has said is actually very important.

[Dan Soder]

And I think that's like, you know, everyone does the thing. This happens every time, but they go, why isn't Jon Stewart running for office? And you go, that's not the question. You don't. The question is, why are we so broken that that's what we're looking to is the fix?

[John Oliver]

Yes.

[Dan Soder]

How about the adults in the room start doing policymaking should be boring and not sexy.

[John Oliver]

Yes.

[Dan Soder]

So this goes as far back as Kennedy trying to make the president cool. I don't want the president to be cool.

[John Oliver]

Yes.

[Dan Soder]

I want him to be boring.

[John Oliver]

Absolutely.

[Dan Soder]

I want him to go, like, here's how we're going to fix health care. And you go, can you just fix it? Yeah.

[John Oliver]

My tolerance for the president being cool has got pretty, pretty low now.

[Dan Soder]

And it was, like, going back and looking at it. It's like that scene in interstellar where Matthew McConaughey is, like, screaming at the bookcase. That's how I feel. I see that clip of Clinton playing sax on Arsenio. I'm like, now you're trying to make them cool. And then he's just getting. He's like, I'm gonna get my dick sucked in the White House.

[John Oliver]

You never want. Even with some of the Obama, you never want to. You don't want to be part of that group. And they. They want to try and suck in celebrities and people in the arts and people from sports. You just. You never want to be that close. You want to be at a. As a personal remove. Personally, I like a remove in general, but also, you just don't want to be in a position to be charmed by someone that you are eventually going to have to criticize.

[Dan Soder]

You're putting too much cheese in it. It's like where every American restaurant goes, we added cheese. It's like the new Applebee's thing where they go, we cut our hamburger in half, and then we just let it sit in a soup of cheese. And you go, it's too much cheese. That's how I've always felt about when actors try to get political. You go, you're a professional liar. Mm. You're a liar. Telling me which liar to pick. I don't like any of that. That's too much cheese. Can I get fucking. Can I get a salad?

[John Oliver]

Feels to me like you're working out a cheese bit. A cheese bit in real time. That's too much cheese.

[Dan Soder]

And then I look to the camera, that's your hamburger. I wish I had a hamburger, John Oliver. If I had a hamburger, I would be saying, that's just. That's too much.

[John Oliver]

That's too much cheese. That's out to the crowd. Too much cheese. Good night.

[Dan Soder]

If you think this episode's not gonn called Too much cheese, you're fucked in the head, cuz. That's too much.

[John Oliver]

I know. And the problem is it will haunt you because you'll think you've moved past the too much cheese bit. But that crowd ain't gonna be ready. No, no, no, no. You come back and you do the too much cheese.

[Dan Soder]

And then I get into a war with Kraft because they don't like where the new album's going, but I got too much cheese, and I want to know where the cheese is coming from, man.

[John Oliver]

What does the too much cheese guys talk about? I have absolutely no idea. It's a Pavlovian response. Ding a ling a ling.

[Dan Soder]

All I know is I. I've ate so much cheese, I'm diabetic and I can't have fucking.

[John Oliver]

That's right.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah. I'm trying to put. I'm big cheese is behind my catchphrase.

[John Oliver]

How's Dan? He's a prisoner of his own success. You'll see.

[Dan Soder]

Oh, the cheese king.

[John Oliver]

Just look at his new poster. He's huge in Wisconsin to a problematic extent.

[Dan Soder]

If you ever get to fly out to see his house that he bought with all the cheese money. It's outside. It's in Daly City.

[John Oliver]

It's a gigantic house, and he is not happy in it.

[Dan Soder]

No dairy. No dairy allowed in it.

[John Oliver]

Don't say the word.

[Dan Soder]

He'll find dairy. My question that I always love, that I love asking, especially comics that are from a different country. That come here is when it's done well. It's very refreshing when someone comes to the United States and goes like, what the fuck are you guys doing? Were you worried when you came here about when you watch other comics do it poorly? Because there are comics that come here and go, like your president. And you go, well, yeah, as an American, there's some comics where I go, I did.

[John Oliver]

I had a different relationship pretty early on with the country because I knew that I wanted to stay here before my immigration status made that a certainty or even a probability.

[Dan Soder]

Sure.

[John Oliver]

So I was talking from a slightly different position. Not as a tourist, more as, like someone who was trying to take ownership.

[Dan Soder]

Sure.

[John Oliver]

And as a British person saying that taking ownership of a country historically has some red flags attached to it.

[Dan Soder]

I don't know what you're talking about.

[John Oliver]

It doesn't matter.

[Dan Soder]

The whole reason that the continent, full wool world away, worships your queen. Oh, you're king now.

[John Oliver]

I remember last year when Trump was talking to the president of Liberia and saying, it's amazing that you speak English. And you go, oh, there are historical reasons for that, dude, that you do not want to get into and you will deny after being presented with the

[Dan Soder]

facts, buddy, you're going to find out. The last 200 years, the English has been pushed in a way that we're not too comfortable teaching English as a

[John Oliver]

foreign language to a genuine fault.

[Dan Soder]

That's always like when one of my friends goes, why are there so many Mormon Samoans? And you go, let's not.

[John Oliver]

Do you wanna? Do you wanna. Because it can't be a short conversation.

[Dan Soder]

I don't think it's that they thought they were cool, that they got caffeine sucked too.

[John Oliver]

Yeah. So I got. I. I found that I wanted to come here not just as a. Not just as a external critic, but a critic from the inside. So I started changing the way that we were writing. Those chats at the Daily show often went for the first year or two, it was often you.

[Dan Soder]

You.

[John Oliver]

And the jokes were pretty reductive coming from you're doing this and it. And I then gradually changed that to we, because I'd been there for long enough that you can't really play that card anymore. I remember talking to Ronnie Chang and saying when he first got here, saying it'll take about a year for you to, like, understand after doing stand up here a lot, what position that you are occupying in terms of talking from, if that makes any sense.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah, that's. That's fascinating because, you know, I think when I went over to the UK and I was in. I did some shows in Ireland and I did some shows in London and then Fringe. Finding that, like, yeah, it's very tempting to come in and go, definitely. What the hell you guys doing? And by the way, sure. Guilty of it. If you were at any of my shows at the soho Theater, there was like, me going, like, you guys run out of ice. But it's like a very American, you know.

[John Oliver]

But of course, I think that's just a function of being in a place for a short amount of time and you realize. And whether you're asking questions of like, why do you do this in any kind of good faith and being interested in the answer.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah.

[John Oliver]

So that's where it gets much deeper.

[Dan Soder]

Yes. Because I've also seen just people come here and then they go so hard in the paint against our government and don't let up for so long that you go, well, you're almost like, snap out of it. And you go, you don't vote. Like, there is that. And that happened to me early on when I moved to New York.

[John Oliver]

Yeah.

[Dan Soder]

Because I had the feeling. Obviously, it's not the same feeling, but when you move from outside New York City, which you were experiencing at the same time as you're coming to the country, there's a feeling. New Yorkers are very like, yeah, why'd you look up? You know, you go, it's a giant building. And they go, hey, don't look up. Like, it's like a little thing. You go, that's such a natural response to be blown away by the architecture. And then they go, this fucking idiot. And you're like, I didn't know.

[John Oliver]

Look at him. Look at the curiosity on this little deer's face.

[Dan Soder]

Oh, country mouse.

[John Oliver]

Back to the woods in New Jersey.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah. And I'm coming from Colorado. My favorite thing was I had an ex girlfriend whose whole family was like, new York, New York, New York. Like, okay. Like, I'm talking about five generations in a borough. So they're very like, you know. And her mom would talk to me like I was a mountain person. Like. Like, she would go. Like, she would say something. She'd go, do they have that in Colorado? And you go, yeah, we have streets and hospitals. You'd be blown away by the infrastructure that we've been able to build on the side of our mountain. It's flat. If you've ever been to den. Yeah. But there is this feeling of like, so I kind of understand, we've done

[John Oliver]

it with less oxygen than you which is more impressive.

[Dan Soder]

We also get storms thrown at us from the mountains like it's some sort of. Like Zeus is casting down lightning bolts.

[John Oliver]

But Fifth Avenue is icy. That must be tough.

[Dan Soder]

Oh, but these people don't know how to drive. You guys don't know how to drive. You're cutting people off at every moment.

[John Oliver]

Not.

[Dan Soder]

Not once. You know what's funny is the lamest I ever felt moving to New York was the first time I drove and someone let me in a lane and I. I waved and I was like, I shouldn't have done that.

[John Oliver]

Yeah, that is some. That is some Midwest.

[Dan Soder]

That's a. That's some. You do that in New York and you go, I guess I'm gonna pee sitting down for the next week.

[John Oliver]

You know what?

[Dan Soder]

Let's.

[John Oliver]

Let's not just. Let's not just let New York ruin all manners everywhere. You could reintroduce the Wave.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah, but that would be.

[John Oliver]

Just do it with confidence.

[Dan Soder]

I'm telling you right now, John. I am.

[John Oliver]

I'm thankful you let me in. I refuse to be humiliated by expressing my gratitude. Good day to you, sir.

[Dan Soder]

Thumbs up to you. I would tell you that would have to pair with a couple of assaults. Very public assaults, to let people know this guy doesn't fuck around.

[John Oliver]

Really?

[Dan Soder]

You better wave back. New Yorkers only respond to violence.

[John Oliver]

Just to be clear, Dan, I don't think that is the acceptable exchange rate for a single Wave. Two assaults.

[Dan Soder]

No. One assault. No, it's a one for one. Okay, one for one.

[John Oliver]

One assault from Wave if the Wave goes wrong.

[Dan Soder]

I'm just saying that the assault has to be the insurance policy on the Wave, where if you wave and they don't wave, then commit an assault.

[John Oliver]

I think that is a race to the bottom. And you end up in the Purge again.

[Dan Soder]

Okay, but what can come from the bottom but nothing but up?

[John Oliver]

Oh, you're saying things got so bad. Burn everything to the ground and then

[Dan Soder]

the Wave will be installed.

[John Oliver]

We're certainly tantalizing with that as a society saying, could we purify this with flames? We could. Should we? That's a much, much more complicated.

[Dan Soder]

Everyone, look at your phone. The flames are grabbing everybod. Look at your phone and go. The flames are everywhere. I can't get out of this. Were you. When you moved here and you be. You know, you're working at the Daily show doing stand up. Was there ever a. I want to just go back to the uk?

[John Oliver]

No, Never.

[Dan Soder]

Never.

[John Oliver]

Never.

[Dan Soder]

Because I. I wonder at what point it pulls you. Like, do you go home and you go, ah, it would be nice to be here or spend more time here.

[John Oliver]

No, not really. I mean, it's. I will say, like the. This goes back to what you were just talking about. The idea of being an outsider is helpful in comedy.

[Dan Soder]

Right.

[John Oliver]

You see things in a different way. So that becomes. There's a high function to that.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah.

[John Oliver]

So expressing yourself as an outsider while increasingly not feeling that way is an interesting position to write comedy from. Also, just being at the Daily show at that time, that was pretty much the high watermark for doing the kind of television that I was interested in. So I've done so many terrible versions of that show. Worked as a writer on bad, bad, bad shows.

[Dan Soder]

Clear knockoffs.

[John Oliver]

This goes all the. Yeah, but not without. With any sense of what the thing you're trying to knock off is fundamentally built on. I remember this goes right back to what you were saying earlier on. I did one terrible version of the Daily show we were writing.

[Dan Soder]

Oh. As it gets warmer and you get older, things start hurting. I'm just letting you know, sometimes you get pains and you go, what the hell is that? Well, guess what? You can go to ZOCDOC and check with someone and then, boom, you'll know what it is. And then if it's not a problem, you're out there living your life. No, really, the problem is sometimes you get worried about, like, what the hell is wrong with me? Please someone help me. And then you're like, dude, this doctor completely put my worries at ease. Go to Zocdoc.com it's an app. Just keep it on your phone and then you can look up specialists in your area that are also in network. You get rid of the stress of getting the appointment and just get the appointment. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com Soder to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's z O C Doc.com Soder Zocdoc.com Soder Thanks Zocdoc for sponsoring this message.

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[Commercial Announcer]

Are you really buying a car online on Autotrader right now? Really? I can get super specific with dealer listings and see cars based on. You can really have it delivered or pick it up. Mommy's kid is walking up the slide.

[Dan Soder]

Really?

[Commercial Announcer]

Auto trader. Buy your car online. Really?

[John Oliver]

I remember. This goes right back to what you were saying earlier on. I did one terrible version of the Daily Show. We were writing a. Writing a show where the host. There was one comedian, there was one newsreader. And immediately that's not. You think that's a good idea from the outside. It's immediately a problem. He can't do this. He not only does he not have any kind of comedic cadence, also, he shouldn't be anywhere near this. We were doing this one.

[Dan Soder]

So wait, the newscaster was. Button up. Was it one of those things where you had a straight man in a comic?

[John Oliver]

Yes, but he was.

[Dan Soder]

He was the straight man trying to be funny.

[John Oliver]

I think what they were trying to do was, well, let's do fake news in its most pathetically reductive form. Real news from. And a comedian. But he literally. You would pitch him jokes, say, I can't say that. I've got to read the news tonight. When you're right, you can't say that. So maybe you fuck off.

[Dan Soder]

So maybe this entire deal is fucked. It's a dude.

[John Oliver]

Different job.

[Dan Soder]

You shouldn't. This.

[John Oliver]

We are tainting you by your presence here. So you shouldn't be here. You're actually the problem here. This ointment is fine. You're the fly.

[Dan Soder]

That is. To me, that's when actors try to do stand up.

[John Oliver]

But I think what they were for sure. But I think what they were trying to do was emulate John, who was very clear about what he was. That he was a comedian in that job.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah.

[John Oliver]

So all of those articles about America's favorite newsman, you're putting that on him. There's a very clear consistency, albeit very clear, singular editorial point of view running from him through the show. So it was a total misunderstanding of how you make these shows. Now, when you guess your point of actors. I. I not sure that I've seen a single. Maybe. Oh, but it doesn't count. I was gonna say Jim Carrey's Andy Kaufman doesn't matter because it doesn't. Of course, because he. Because he's paid his dues.

[Dan Soder]

He came also. There's also. Guys. What's crazy is I think it's A very weird relationship. Acting and stand up are where I think great actors can come from. Stand up, right? But I don't think great stand up can come from actors. I think, I think when actors done

[John Oliver]

it right, that's the thing. Unless they've done it well.

[Dan Soder]

That's what I mean. I mean, starting off your base, right? Your base starting at stand up, I think you can grow to be a great actor. Leaves Michael Keaton, Tom Hanks for sure. I think there were a lot of people that started doing stand up that left it behind and became world class actors. I've never seen an actor leave acting and become a world class standup. Oh yeah, because the base is like so unimportant versus acting.

[John Oliver]

Well, also it must be hard to start standup as a famous person because you're starting with an unhelpful amount of credit in the bank for an audience, right. You can't help but disappoint them gradually. And also you're not going to fail in the ways that are important to fail to get good. It goes back to right, what we're saying at the start, right. You need to be chiseled in the kiln of catastrophic failure.

[Dan Soder]

You need to be comfortable being painfully humbled. Yes, Painfully humbled. And I think that's why rich kids who start businesses never do well. Because they're like. When you hear about some famous person's child is starting this fashion brand, you go, well, I hope someone else is running it. That's. That started a small business and has failed because these rich kids, it's. You know, he sees me talk about this all the time, but I, I call it the, the mafia boss son. Like Gotti's son, right? Could never be in the. He can't run the mob because the guys he's around, they're like, we killed people to survive. And he's like, I didn't get a Rolls Royce until I was 17, right? Like it's just off.

[John Oliver]

Tony got it from his dad, but AJ wasn't getting it from Tony.

[Dan Soder]

Exactly. That's exactly it. Like Tony kind of saw the Sopranos is like one of the best examples of it. Cuz aj, you go, well, I don't want him to be a mafia member. I want him to be a kid from the Birds.

[John Oliver]

Also toy the Sopranos, that is an objectively funny show.

[Dan Soder]

Very.

[John Oliver]

So like pound for pound, so many more laughs in there than it's ever given credit for.

[Dan Soder]

And also on the re watches, you realize that there's like prat falls that aren't supposed to be prat falls. Like, there's like the way bodies fall or like the way noises they make. You go, that's funny. Like, I know we're in a serious scene, but like. Like the way Tony will beat someone up and like, do something with his hands and you go, that's hilarious.

[John Oliver]

It's Buster Keaton if he bled.

[Dan Soder]

Yes. Yeah. Someone. That was the pitch. There you go. I don't know where this world's gonna be, but it's Buster Keaton if he bleeds.

[John Oliver]

What if he's hanging off the clock but he's dislocated his shoulder visibly, but

[Dan Soder]

the guy that owed him the money is holding him. Yeah, it is. I mean, I think there is like, when you go back and watch. I like humor as a flavor. I don't like it as a base. When it's supposed to be something important. Important.

[John Oliver]

Right.

[Dan Soder]

I think that's what we were kind of talking about.

[John Oliver]

Definitely. Like, and I think you have.

[Dan Soder]

If you're gonna be funny, you add the sugar on the top. I don't.

[John Oliver]

I think that's why I love Maria Bamford so much. Because it's relentlessly funny.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah.

[John Oliver]

Just constantly, relentlessly funny. But it is built on top of really dark truths.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah.

[John Oliver]

And interesting points of view.

[Dan Soder]

Something that always, to me, in. In people that are just funny. It doesn't even have to be stand up. Comedy is. I always liked finding people that were funny because they had to be because it was a self defense mechanism.

[John Oliver]

Totally.

[Dan Soder]

Be like, Whether it be like depression or.

[John Oliver]

Yes.

[Dan Soder]

You know, you look at Maria Bamford and you go, she has to be funny to survive. Yes.

[John Oliver]

Yeah.

[Dan Soder]

Or else her brain would have taken her down years ago. And I love watching that. And that's why, like, one of my favorite albums of all time is Unwanted Thought Syndrome, which she records at the uc.

[John Oliver]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan Soder]

And she just like. It's basically like, try to follow her. That you try to follow her and you're like, I can't follow her line of thinking. But every. It's like she turns and does a bit. Turns and does it. And every movement is funny. And she's one of my favorite of all time.

[John Oliver]

Yes, definitely.

[Dan Soder]

And what's funny is to take her and go like, I want her to do QVC for real. That's what it feels like sometimes where they're like, no, I'm listening to this person for real. And. Yeah, well, she's very loudly mentally unwell. I think you should probably just enjoy her being funny.

[John Oliver]

Yeah.

[Dan Soder]

She's the. But that's where we're at now, where everyone is accessible. What I love about last week tonight is you still do the thing of like, hey, we got an episode coming out. Yes. So it'll be coming out.

[John Oliver]

Yeah. Well, also, there's no. Like, early on there was. They were asking HBO saying, can you maybe it would be good to like, you know, like some late night shows, say what guest is on. You say, well, you could say, what are you going to be talking about? That is not inviting people in. That is a repellent.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah.

[John Oliver]

If we say we're talking about mobile home financing thing, well, that is a hard skip for me. This only works because it's like an audience that is then trapped. You're like, you have to trust us. We've been working on this for a month and a half. This is going to be funnier than it sounds for the first four minutes.

[Dan Soder]

What if we put a little soccer ball icon when you guys talk about FIFA, let her know it's coming and you go, no, I can't do that.

[John Oliver]

Understand it from their point of view. Of course, that is the way that marketing works. However, I promise you, it is best if you don't list the ingredients of this. No one's going to order it.

[Dan Soder]

They're coming out with this flavor.

[John Oliver]

Don't tell them juvenile justice for 50 minutes. Oh, wow. Okay, honey, set the DVR Sunday night and I'm tired.

[Dan Soder]

John Oliver's talking about roofing. I can't wait to spend 50 minutes learning about the roofing industry.

[John Oliver]

Is it worse than I think? Oh, thanks. Where are the jokes here, though?

[Dan Soder]

Shingles can cause cancer or shingles itself. And then you're like, oh, the fuck

[John Oliver]

got worse during Reagan. Okay. Oh, fun.

[Dan Soder]

Did you ever. Was there ever something that you were working on that you went, this might be too dangerous? Like, have you dangerous? Yeah. Because sometimes you go into big where I feel like you're investigating in a way that does uncover some stuff that probably pisses people off.

[John Oliver]

Sure.

[Dan Soder]

That's probably my better question.

[John Oliver]

I can't care about that, though. Genuinely, to my bones, don't care. I don't have a physical reaction to it. Like, somewhere. I think it's just a nice. Like when. When we were doing one of the pieces on the Sackler family. I think at one point they called us demanding to come into the office. Like, no, you can talk to our researcher on the record.

[Dan Soder]

That's so funny. And that the Sackler family thought they could come in and talk to you.

[John Oliver]

What was more Chilling is you realize that that was their move. It's like, oh, get we go into the building. Well, you're not coming to the beat. You can talk to the. Our researcher on the record. You can do that. I know you can talk to her on background, but no, there's a process here, and it doesn't.

[Dan Soder]

If.

[John Oliver]

If you think this is going to be a charm offensive, please let me save you a trip.

[Dan Soder]

I think. I love that they thought they were gonna come in there, go how you do. Have you ever been to our wing in the museum? Exactly. Come take a look at it. And you go, you started the opiate epidemic. Like, you created oxycontin and ruined most of the Rust Belt in America. I think that's always, you know, something that I was fascinated by. Beth Macy's book, Dope Sick, and talking about the Sackler family was this idea that they would always go, we'll get out of this.

[John Oliver]

Yes.

[Dan Soder]

Like a Houdini.

[John Oliver]

Also, there's the amount of Sacklers who in the researching that people say, oh, we're on a different side of the family. Different side of the family how?

[Dan Soder]

But we don't talk to those cousins.

[John Oliver]

And yet when the inheritance comes down, you all get wet.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah. They go, you're gonna make sure you're on that side of the family.

[John Oliver]

When David dies, my hands are clean. I think we disagree on what the word clean means.

[Dan Soder]

Can I tell you one of my boredom things? You know, I. I started hating social media pretty quickly, being forced to do it or whatever. But I found this after I read Dopesick by Becky Beth Macy. One of my searches was I would go to one of the members of the Sackler family because they were like, an influencer. And I just read the comments.

[John Oliver]

I know who you mean.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah. And I would just read the comments because I would watch her delete them in real time. Yeah. They'd be like, blood money. And she'd be like, new dress dropping. And they're like, I lost my mother to heroin because of you. And then it's like, okay, that's not a sexy comment. And watching that made me. Me. Yeah, I know this is sick. But it brought me this, like, weird joy of, like. Yeah.

[John Oliver]

At that point when there was almost nothing to hope for in the way of justice, it felt like that was the most justice you could hope for. A stain.

[Dan Soder]

Yes.

[John Oliver]

Even if it wasn't going to be a legal process, you were going to be stained by it. I think we're going to be going through that a bunch with this administration and what they're doing. What a stain is going to have to follow some of these people for what they're doing for the rest of their life.

[Dan Soder]

Can I just.

[John Oliver]

System won't catch up to the.

[Dan Soder]

I know. I. You're absolutely correct that the justice system won't. My. Where I have to individually take responsibility is just hope. Hope that in two years, my career isn't going so poorly that Caroline Levitt's sitting there and I'm going, yeah, it is a bunch of bullshit. You know what I mean? And go talking to Mike going, clip that. That was real good. That was real good. When I said that Vanity Fair piece was bullshit. You know what I mean? Like, can I tell you, that's where my word is.

[John Oliver]

The algorithm likes it when you carry water for the Trump administration. Who are we to argue with it?

[Dan Soder]

John? The views are through the roof.

[John Oliver]

Yeah.

[Dan Soder]

But it's like, there's a part of me that, like, that's what I fear, is that, like, oh, God, I hope I can dig my. You know. Because you don't. Everything gets turned around and these people do try to go, like, you don't genuinely fear that. No, that's 100. A joke. Joke.

[John Oliver]

Yes, that's right. I can't even. Moral compass, which I. Genuine.

[Dan Soder]

Yes. I genuinely try to hope I won't spit on these people. Like, it's. You know what I mean? Like, there are people that I watch that make me so angry that I go, I know you don't mean this well.

[John Oliver]

So there. That goes back to what you were saying about, like, the process of comedy. I don't know how I could do the kind of journalism that people that we speak to do without knowing at some point we're gonna try and write a joke about it. Because it puts you in such an emotional spiral.

[Dan Soder]

That's why I don't.

[John Oliver]

Things get darker and darker. Like, if we didn't. As crazy as it can seem from the outside to try and write jokes about incredibly depressing world events, I don't know how to deal with depressing world events without them.

[Dan Soder]

I've always been a big fan of watching comedians like Bill Hicks or like Doug Stanhope dope take these heavy, heavy ideas and make very funny. And I also think that was one of the first instances where I realized my restrictions, where I go, I don't think I can do that. I don't. Because I think I get so fired up that it's like, oh, it's just gonna be me yelling. It's not gonna be me. Being.

[John Oliver]

Oh, really?

[Dan Soder]

Yeah, My, my humor comes from more of like an airport bar energy of like we're just sitting around bullshitting.

[John Oliver]

Okay.

[Dan Soder]

But I've never been the person and I admire this in, in comedians that they go, I have a problem and I think I'm gonna have a funny part and then a solution and a funny part because I just go, well, then we just tear their eyes out and they go, that's not funny at all. You go, right, right, it's not funny.

[John Oliver]

Well, I'll work backwards from tear their eyes.

[Dan Soder]

Okay, back up a little bit.

[John Oliver]

That's right. Just. I can frame it in a different way, but just know in my head my fingers are in someone's sockets.

[Dan Soder]

Well, yes. When I was at Sirius XM and they would tell people, they would like brief us when we were doing the show of like, like this person's going to be in the building. I'd be like, I'm afraid I'm going to. In my hand and throw it at him like a champ. You might have to keep. I think it was Steve Bannon the first time he was coming through and it was like 2015. But I was just watching him. And I'm not a political guy, but I was like, I was just kind of watching all the. Which by the way, now that all the Epstein files are out and we're finding out that not all, not all, not all of them, but we're finding out that the culture war was manufactured by these people. That's what I'm saying. It makes me feel less crazy because at the time it was making me feel so crazy. I go, I know you don't really mean this.

[John Oliver]

I was just watching on the way over here Dan Bongino's video about. Say it's. It's just.

[Dan Soder]

I can't wait.

[John Oliver]

Every move that you would think you make, listen, when you get in there, things are more complicated. Oh, they're more complicated, are they?

[Dan Soder]

Yeah.

[John Oliver]

Than the reductive self serving way that you sold it.

[Dan Soder]

Well, no, first off, hell's hot, but it's a dry heat and no one talks about that. It's not humid Satan. And a lot of people don't know this. He's in it, he's frozen.

[John Oliver]

It's just about regular hydration.

[Dan Soder]

It is, that's really what it is. They go, you have to hydrate, you

[John Oliver]

have to be outside. The whole thing's air conditioned. What are we worried about here?

[Dan Soder]

Demons is such a negative one. What they are, are. They're spirits.

[John Oliver]

We're all demons. Yeah.

[Dan Soder]

It's. Sure. It's a boiling river of blood and Alexander is drowning in it for eternity or just having a soak. You gotta look at it differently. That's what I mean. If, like how good we've gotten at like ignoring part of your brain and just going like, this is fine. It's that meme with the dog with fire around it being like, this is fine.

[John Oliver]

Yeah.

[Dan Soder]

You go, I don't think it is.

[John Oliver]

Yeah. And it's. That is. It can be maddening on the outside. And what I am glad that some people are coming to a realization.

[Dan Soder]

Yes.

[John Oliver]

In the wake of Minneapolis, of what this administration was always capable of. It is more than a little frustrating.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah.

[John Oliver]

To hear any element of surprise about something that in this administration's defense, they were openly considering 10 years ago.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah.

[John Oliver]

So it's absurd to. And again, I'll take people opening their eyes any way I can, but to open your eyes and say, nobody saw this is a lot of people.

[Dan Soder]

Well, that's, that's just funny because they go like that. Like they're. They're running on monster trucks. Should be driving around in the city. I want to see monster trucks driving. And you go, I don't think that's a good idea. And 10 years later they go, my car got crushed by Bigfoot. And you go, well, yeah, I told you monster trucks shouldn't be driving around the city.

[John Oliver]

No idea that they would do.

[Dan Soder]

And they go, really? I don't know.

[John Oliver]

I think I'm gonna defend them here. Yeah, they. They implied it pretty strongly. I think you were willingly not listening.

[Dan Soder]

What's it. What's interesting is, is everything is a pendulum. So it's going to swing back, of course, and it's going to swing back. And what's going to be interesting is in 10 years, if you, if when it swings back to where the left is, you go, guys, don't forget. Because in a lot of ways the, the bad shit was a quick reaction to we're finding out it was all manufactured.

[John Oliver]

Yes. I, I would say, like, in terms of the pendulum, it's always worth remembering. It swings then back again. Right. I think the most naive I was. I've been is that after that first six months to a year of COVID where it was clear that for many people who had not been watching, systemic issues were exposed and undeniably laid in front of them. I did remember thinking, oh, if we get through to the other side of this, maybe we have a once in a generation chance to actually address systemic issues. And oh, man, did I not give Americans credit and just go, we can move straight on from this. Don't worry.

[Dan Soder]

That is the most British thing you've done, is you've gone, well, there'll clearly be a lesson at the end of this. Have you ever been on a double loop diddy loop? You go, brother, this roller coaster ain't over. We're going backwards. You go, how do you think you could do a loop diddy loop backwards? You go, brother, it's the only reason I came here. I know that really is the feeling where you just. If you've ever been on a roller coaster that goes backwards, you're like, why are you doing this?

[John Oliver]

That is the one. You know, Shining City on a Hill gets vastly overused and was never really applicable in the way that Reagan described it.

[Dan Soder]

Sure.

[John Oliver]

I will just say if this America, if America is anything at its best and worst is the double loop.

[Dan Soder]

It's the double loop. Just get ready.

[John Oliver]

No one else would even think of doing it.

[Dan Soder]

No. You go, a. A loop is enough. And America goes, two loops. And we're doing it again. Two loops. Do it backwards. And we're not around. We're not around at all.

[John Oliver]

And that's the cheese we gotta find.

[Dan Soder]

I forgot what the catchphrase was.

[John Oliver]

Not enough cheese.

[Dan Soder]

When you. You as far as stand up goes, are you still doing stand up?

[John Oliver]

I am. I used to just get to do it every. Over the holidays, I would do, like, a run up into New Year that became. It was a way to keep doing it. It was also immensely frustrating because I would jump up a bit at the start of that week around clubs to try and remember how to do it. Takes a few gigs of doing it to get anything close to competent. By the end of it, I've kind of fallen back in love with it and then have to stop doing it for another year. Yeah, that was very frustrating. So now, once a month, I do the Beacon with Seth.

[Dan Soder]

Oh, yeah. And Brooks Whelan.

[John Oliver]

And Brooks as well. He's the best. And so now I get to do it at least once a month, and that's probably the minimum amount I can do it and still feel like it's at my fingertips.

[Dan Soder]

Yeah, I love it. I just like. I like seeing guys that I always like doing standup knowing there are still keeping their foot in it because nothing bums me out as a comic. I like. It's like, I don't do it anymore. You go, why are you not doing it?

[John Oliver]

I couldn't. I was, why are you not doing it? Is I genuinely feel that way. I don't know understand why you wouldn't. I remember my, my wife when, just before we got married, I was working long hours at the Daily show and I was doing non stop stand up. So it's before we had kids. It's an understandable conversation to have with her saying, why. Why are you going out and doing. Doing two shows in these shitty rooms tonight? And that, that why has an answer, but it's one that, you know, it's. Because it's where I'm happiest.

[Dan Soder]

Yes.

[John Oliver]

Because, you know, it scratches an itch.

[Dan Soder]

It's immediate gratification, immediate evasion.

[John Oliver]

It's. There are lots of reasons to do it, but it also feels like as part of a broader conversation, I can, I can and probably should do it less, given how much I'm working at this other thing. It's just a tough balance.

[Dan Soder]

God, what a relationship conversation that. I'm not joking. Every comedian has had with a significant other where they go, every night, you go, every night, I live this. And finally they go, well, you live with me. I know. It took Katie being like, come on, this is crazy.

[John Oliver]

It's entirely fair because I think she's right.

[Dan Soder]

I think it is right.

[John Oliver]

I think it is a little bit crazy. And I think there is a healthier version of it that isn't the version that feels the best.

[Dan Soder]

I started taking, you know, what it. I think you're absolutely right. And also what it does is it, it lets your gas tank fill up.

[John Oliver]

Yeah, definitely.

[Dan Soder]

So then you go do stand up. And you go, I have all these real situations I've lived in that help me write my jokes.

[John Oliver]

And that's where you realize the level of addiction standup can be at times, because it is like saying, oh, really?

[Dan Soder]

Heroin?

[John Oliver]

Heroin again today? Why? It's not just a weekend thing, huh?

[Dan Soder]

Yeah. Oh, no, we're doing it on a Monday. Okay, this might be a problem. I remember, you know, I quit drinking 13 years ago and Joe List, fantastic comedian, he. He quit before me. And we were drinking buddies and we used to drink every night of the week.

[John Oliver]

Yeah.

[Dan Soder]

And we would take Sunday off and we'd see each other Monday. And we go, look at us being healthy. And that's how it started to feel with stand up. I would be on the road, I'd come home and do shows on Sunday. And then I took Sundays off for the first time and I was like, work, life, balance. And then, and then I started dating Katie and we started getting together and she was like, all Right. So you're gonna do five shows Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Why are you doing Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday?

[John Oliver]

I think she's right, but I was very, very, very resistant.

[Dan Soder]

Tough conversation.

[John Oliver]

It is. It's tough because it's tough to be walked to the fact that you were. You're wrong. It's crazy.

[Dan Soder]

It's quickly how misogyny pops in where you go, this dumb bitch telling me not to, and you go, wow. Oh, it's because she loves you. Yeah, that's where you go. And you go, oh, she loves me and just wants to spend more time with me. Maybe I should go and analyze that.

[John Oliver]

Maybe I should be seeing this as an attack.

[Dan Soder]

Exactly. That's genuinely what it was. Where I go, oh, this isn't an attack. She has so many times had to, like a. Like a wild animal come up with hands of grain and go, hey, hey, buddy, I just want you to be around more. And I'm going, like, I'm just breathing heavy and kicking my leg, dude. Thank you so much for doing the podcast.

[John Oliver]

Also, that must be the moment where she's having an internal dialogue with, why do I want this wild animal around?

[Dan Soder]

Because it seems like I honestly think if there wouldn't have been Covid. That was the moment where we were together so much. She was like, great, all right. And then when I came back, she softly was like, maybe do spots every other night. And then it worked, and I started liking it more, and now I have this, like, much healthier balance with life.

[John Oliver]

Look at you now.

[Dan Soder]

Look at us now. I'm in the cheese game.

[John Oliver]

We're doing all right in the cheese game. I'm pretty deep in the cheese game.

[Dan Soder]

Pretty, pretty confident. I'm gonna have Caroline Levitt booked in two years if she's not dead by a mysterious force.

[John Oliver]

If you don't get. Get sponsored by little baby bells in this episode.

[Dan Soder]

Baby bell, where the fuck are you at?

[John Oliver]

And capitalism doesn't work.

[Dan Soder]

And honestly, I don't even think America does. The experiment is over. Give it back to the king. We're fucking Charles.

[John Oliver]

That's it. That's all I want for any interview is to have someone say, give it back to the King. My work here is done.

[Dan Soder]

You check in.

[John Oliver]

I'm off to do Andrew Schultz.

[Dan Soder]

You go back. I'm gonna get them all, collect them all, like Pokemon. You're the best, dude. Thank you for coming on. You're hilarious. I love your work. Thank you. For real. When they said you were coming on, I was like, no way. And I cannot wait to tell Katie that you popped. Seeing the Garbage Time hat, that's the

[John Oliver]

first thing I saw when I got here.

[Dan Soder]

Start the online petition. Bring back Garbage Time show.

[John Oliver]

Yes. It should never have gone.

[Dan Soder]

It should have never gone. Oh, we're gonna. You gotta clip that immediately.

[John Oliver]

Thanks, dude. Appreciate it.

[Dan Soder]

Awesome.

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