Podcast Title: Software Engineering Daily
Episode: DocuSign for Developers with Dan Selman and Larry Ginn
Release Date: February 18, 2025
Host: Shawn Falconer

Introduction

In this enlightening episode of Software Engineering Daily, host Shawn Falconer delves into the evolving landscape of digital contracts and agreements with two esteemed guests from DocuSign: Dan Selman, Product Architect and Distinguished Engineer, and Larry Ginn, Vice President of Product Management. Released on February 18, 2025, the episode explores the complexities of agreement management, the integration of AI in contract processes, and the future of intelligent agreement systems.

1. Background and Roles

Dan Selman and Larry Ginn provide insights into their professional journeys and current roles at DocuSign.

• Dan Selman describes his transition from engineering roles to architecture and strategic work within DocuSign, emphasizing his extensive experience across the tech stack.

  “[...] I've done most of the engineering jobs as an individual contributor, and now I do a lot more architecture and strategic work.”
  — Dan Selman [01:36]

• Larry Ginn highlights his focus on building a platform for developers and partners to extend DocuSign’s agreement capabilities, drawing from his previous experiences at Amazon, Microsoft, and Google.

  “I lead a number of areas, but really focused on building a platform for our developers and partners to build and extend our agreement capabilities.”
  — Larry Ginn [02:16]

2. The Appeal of DocuSign and the Agreement Space

Larry Ginn shares his motivations for joining DocuSign, citing the brand’s reputation and the vast, untapped potential in the agreements sector.

• Larry Ginn emphasizes the ubiquity of agreements in daily and business activities and the limited innovation historically applied to managing them.

  “Agreements and contracts, it's something that everyone deals with at all times. [...] a lot of parts of the workflow around it that are pretty broken, disconnected.”
  — Larry Ginn [02:26]

Shawn Falconer draws an analogy between the evolution of maps from paper to digital, underscoring the nascent stage of digital agreements.

“[...] there's so much more left to do. [...] it's like the first step of making this paper process a digital process.”
— Shawn Falconer [08:20]

3. Challenges in Agreement Management

The guests discuss the multifaceted challenges businesses face in managing agreements, leading to significant financial losses.

• Dan Selman quantifies the impact of inefficient contract management, citing a staggering loss of approximately $2 trillion due to poor management practices.

  “I think there's something like $2 trillion or something is lost due to inefficient contract management.”
  — Dan Selman [09:20]

• Larry Ginn provides concrete examples such as “sneaky renewals” and the manual extraction of agreement data, which hinder operational efficiency.

  “[...] no one does that. Right. And then Gets auto renewed, and then you're on the hook for another year of spend, whether you like it or not.”
  — Larry Ginn [11:03]

4. Leveraging AI for Intelligent Agreement Management

The conversation shifts to how DocuSign is utilizing Artificial Intelligence (AI) and automation to address the challenges in agreement management.

• Dan Selman explains the application of Natural Language Processing (NLP) and Large Language Models (LLMs) to extract structured data from unstructured documents, creating a semantic model of agreements.

  “We build this very rich semantic model of an agreement based on dozens and dozens of data extractions that we then index and make searchable...”
  — Dan Selman [13:14]

• Larry Ginn discusses the integration of AI in various stages of the agreement lifecycle, including negotiation, approval, and post-signature management.

  “[...] AI assist technology that will suggest revisions, even changes in language and terminology based on that playbook concept...”
  — Larry Ginn [24:16]

5. Building and Extending the Semantic Model

Dan and Larry elaborate on the creation and extension of their semantic models to accommodate diverse agreement types and customer-specific needs.

• Dan Selman details the base semantic model provided by DocuSign, which can be customized by customers to fit specific industry requirements.

  “We give you a base semantic model that we've developed over the years. That's pretty rich. And then that model has some extensibility mechanisms built into it...”
  — Dan Selman [22:52]

• Larry Ginn emphasizes the importance of flexibility and extensibility in their APIs to support a wide range of use cases and developer needs.

  “[...] developers can kind of build a service in a programming language of their choice, host it in a cloud provider of their choice...”
  — Larry Ginn [34:37]

6. Ensuring Data Accuracy and Privacy

The discussion addresses the complexities of ensuring data accuracy and maintaining privacy, especially in the context of AI-driven processes.

• Dan Selman highlights the bespoke nature of their machine learning pipelines designed to prevent data leaks and ensure accurate extractions.

  “We have a very mature kind of data pipeline AI ML practice, you know, that is assessing model drift...”
  — Dan Selman [27:16]

• Larry Ginn stresses the importance of stringent data governance and the challenges associated with anonymizing sensitive information effectively.

  “[...] some of the industry benchmarks around, you know, kind of what constitutes good anonymization... are still getting established.”
  — Larry Ginn [28:12]

7. The Developer Ecosystem and API Integration

Larry Ginn discusses the critical role of developers in integrating DocuSign’s APIs into broader workflows and the continuous enhancements aimed at supporting this ecosystem.

• Larry Ginn notes that over 50% of DocuSign’s transactions are API-generated, underscoring the platform’s dependency on robust developer support.

  “50% or more than 50% of our, you know, documents that get signed, those transactions were actually API generated...”
  — Larry Ginn [30:06]

• He also touches upon the future focus on developer events, hackathons, and expanding API functionalities to foster a vibrant developer community.

  “This year we're going to continue to do that with participating in developer events, having hackathons...”
  — Larry Ginn [42:12]

8. Future Outlook: The Evolution of Agreements

Looking ahead, Dan and Larry share their visionary perspectives on the future of agreement management and the transformative impact of AI.

• Larry Ginn anticipates a significant leap in automation through the convergence of generative AI and business process automation, envisioning a future where complex workflows are effortlessly managed by intelligent agents.

  “[...] making it easy for people to be able to automate those, all these complex processes using agents and Gen AI...”
  — Larry Ginn [36:57]

• Dan Selman reflects on the dynamic nature of contracts, proposing a future where agreements are active, responsive entities that interact with real-time data and events.

  “[...] a mode where those are active running entities, agents, programs, whatever you want to call them...”
  — Dan Selman [40:02]

9. Roadmap and Ongoing Developments

The episode concludes with a discussion on the immediate next steps and ongoing projects aimed at enhancing DocuSign’s intelligent agreement management platform.

• Larry Ginn outlines the focus on simplifying agreement creation, enhancing AI-driven extractions, and expanding integrations with major tools and vendor software.

  “[...] continuing to solve different parts of that agreement lifecycle. So we're investing in agreement, kind of creation, preparation and simplifying that.”
  — Larry Ginn [42:12]

• Dan Selman adds that there will be an increased emphasis on non-North American data extraction and semantic modeling to cater to a global customer base.

  “You'll see a lot more focus on non North American data extraction and semantic modeling of agreements...”
  — Dan Selman [44:09]

Conclusion

This episode of Software Engineering Daily provides a comprehensive look into how DocuSign is at the forefront of transforming agreement management through AI and intelligent systems. Dan Selman and Larry Ginn offer valuable insights into the challenges and innovations shaping the future of digital contracts, emphasizing the critical role of developers in this evolving ecosystem. As businesses increasingly rely on sophisticated agreement management solutions, DocuSign continues to innovate, driving efficiency and unlocking substantial economic value.

Notable Quotes

• Larry Ginn [02:26]: “Agreements and contracts, it's something that everyone deals with at all times. [...] a lot of parts of the workflow around it that are pretty broken, disconnected.”

• Dan Selman [09:20]: “I think there's something like $2 trillion or something is lost due to inefficient contract management.”

• Larry Ginn [11:03]: “[...] no one does that. Right. And then Gets auto renewed, and then you're on the hook for another year of spend, whether you like it or not.”

• Dan Selman [13:14]: “We build this very rich semantic model of an agreement based on dozens and dozens of data extractions that we then index and make searchable...”

• Larry Ginn [24:16]: “[...] AI assist technology that will suggest revisions, even changes in language and terminology based on that playbook concept...”

• Larry Ginn [34:37]: “[...] developers can kind of build a service in a programming language of their choice, host it in a cloud provider of their choice...”

• Dan Selman [22:52]: “We give you a base semantic model that we've developed over the years. That's pretty rich. And then that model has some extensibility mechanisms built into it...”

• Larry Ginn [36:57]: “[...] making it easy for people to be able to automate those, all these complex processes using agents and Gen AI...”

• Dan Selman [40:02]: “[...] a mode where those are active running entities, agents, programs, whatever you want to call them...”

Final Thoughts

For those keen on the intersection of software engineering, AI, and business process automation, this episode offers deep dives into DocuSign’s strategies and technological advancements. Dan Selman and Larry Ginn not only shed light on current innovations but also pave the way for future developments that promise to redefine how agreements are created, managed, and utilized in the digital age.