Podcast Summary: Empowering Cross-Functional Product Teams
Podcast: Software Engineering Daily
Episode: Empowering Cross-Functional Product Teams with Tobias Dunn-Krahn and Doug Peete
Guests: Tobias Dunn-Krahn (CTO & Co-Founder, Atono), Doug Peete (Chief Product Officer, Atono)
Host: Kevin Ball (VP Engineering, Mento)
Date: August 19, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode dives into the challenges of unifying cross-functional software teams and streamlining the entire software development lifecycle. Tobias Dunn-Krahn and Doug Peete, leaders at Atono—a platform built to empower cross-functional product teams—discuss their philosophy around product tooling, user story quality, integrated feature management, and the impact of AI on product development. The conversation is practical and candid, blending deep technical insight with pragmatic cultural observations.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Backgrounds and the Genesis of Atono
[01:41 – 03:26]
- Tobias and Doug’s Experience:
- Both have decades in software engineering, operations, and product management.
- Diverse backgrounds, from startups to large corporates, inform their unified approach.
- The Need:
- Fragmentation in software tooling, especially for cross-functional teams.
- Collaboration is hampered by silos—Atono aims to bridge these with a single workflow.
Notable Quote:
"I've worked at companies that are very small, just a few people, all the way up to large public companies. A lot of that experience actually informs how we've decided to build and the way that we built Atono." — Tobias [01:53]
2. Atono’s Unique Approach
[03:47 – 05:25]
- Integrated Lifecycle Management:
- Built-in feature flags, post-release analysis, and tight feedback loops.
- Emphasis on high-quality, structured user stories that serve as the "centerpiece."
- Product Metrics Transparently Shared:
- Feature engagement tracking helps teams understand post-release performance.
Notable Quote:
"Atono is built to support cross-functional teams that not only build that software, but run it." — Tobias [03:47]
3. Building for All Product Team Personas
[05:25 – 09:40]
- Target Users:
- Not just PMs or engineers—Atono is for the whole product team: product owners, designers, engineers, ops, QA, and customer support.
- Product Management Industry Gaps:
- Current industry tools either favor PMs (e.g., Jira) or engineers (e.g., Linear), rarely both.
- Atono aims for unity—empowering engineers, who are often underrepresented in the strategy process.
Notable Quotes:
"It's a shame that we don't do a better job of empowering these engineers to be part of the design process... we treat them like mercenaries often." — Doug [08:10]
4. Facilitating True Collaboration with User Stories and Workflow
[09:40 – 13:24]
- Integrated, Customizable Workflow:
- Story refinement starts with design—no sizing without it; design is “pulled forward".
- Design, engineering, and testing interact organically (“gray area, not a series of gates”).
- Acceptance Criteria as First-Class Entities:
- Not just text fields—ACs are separate objects, allowing comments, states, and traceability.
Memorable Moment:
"We treat stories differently in terms of the amount of structure that they have, all the way down to even acceptance criteria, being first class citizens." — Doug [11:39]
"Developers are afraid to touch the story. They think it's some sacred document." — Doug [12:08]
5. Structured Acceptance Criteria—Unlocking Automation & Analytics
[13:24 – 18:31]
- Permanent Links and AI-powered Suggestions:
- ACs can be linked, referenced, and traced—even as stories change or split.
- Structured ACs enable future AI to suggest story splits, verify coverage, and attribute feature usage analytics effectively.
- Bridging to CI/CD and Testing:
- Formal, structured ACs integrate neatly into validation loops, making automation and reporting easier.
Notable Quote:
"Having it be structured… you can literally make specific recommendations. You can step through, approve, reject... as opposed to coming back to saying I'm going to diff this text blob." — Doug [17:19]
6. INVEST and Decomposition: Quality at Every Level
[19:02 – 24:25]
- INVEST Mnemonic:
- Independent, Negotiable, Valuable, Estimable, Small, Testable—guides story creation in Atono.
- Decomposition = Empowerment:
- Emphasis on small, shippable increments.
- Tools remove friction in splitting, moving, and recombining stories.
- Acknowledged challenge: Design keeps up less easily with decomposition; call for better tooling there.
Notable Quotes:
"Any friction you can remove in that process is good. There's resistance to decomposition pretty much across every role." — Tobias [21:35]
"It ends up being kind of meta because we're building products to build products." — Doug [21:28]
7. Feature Flags: Democratized and Deeply Integrated
[25:48 – 34:19]
- Native to Story Lifecycle:
- Add feature flags directly to stories; manage rollout from the same interface.
- Built on OpenFeature, easily integrates with multiple tech stacks.
- Visibility and Clean Up:
- All roles can see and manage flag status; democratized access.
- Highlight technical debt—surface flags ready to retire.
- Promotes healthy hygiene, avoids siloed expensive tools.
Notable Quotes:
"You don't want to put up a paywall in front of that [healthy software practice]." — Tobias [34:02]
"We believe it's so fundamental that that's how it needs to be." — Doug [33:41]
8. From Tooling to Education: Opinionated, but Flexible
[34:56 – 36:44]
- Opinionated Defaults:
- Atono guides users toward best practices but allows workflow customization.
- Rich documentation and blogging support process education alongside tooling.
- Cultural Progression:
- The shift from DVD-era installations to cloud SaaS illustrates mindset evolution.
Memorable Moment:
(Amused reflection on their age and the evolution of software tooling.)
9. AI in Product Development: Practical and Realistic
[36:50 – 44:21]
- Integrated AI—But Not Hype-Driven:
- AI used for story suggestions, summarizing story content (Ask Capi), and (potentially) more.
- Structured data is critical—AI is only as good as its training data.
- Avoiding Agent-Hype:
- The team prefers seamless AI integrations over chatty agents; value trumps gimmickry.
- AI’s Role Today:
- Dramatic improvement in prototyping and mock-up generation.
- Still skepticism—AI is best at amplifying, not replacing, human creativity and innovation.
Notable Quotes:
"AI is only as good as its training data. If you're trying to innovate and do something that no one's ever done before, you can't do that with just AI." — Tobias [37:30]
"Do people really care what the algorithm is behind the scenes... I think in the fullness of time, we'll shortly see people being sick of the term AI this, AI that, and they just want those things done for them." — Doug [43:03]
10. Visibility and Empowerment: Feature Engagement for the Whole Team
[44:45 – End]
- Post-Deployment Insight for All:
- Feature engagement metrics are not just for PMs—everyone should see how shipped code affects real users.
- This visibility connects the team to real outcomes, fights the "mercenary coder" syndrome, and encourages ongoing improvement.
Notable Quote:
"Bringing [engagement metrics] all the way back to the entire team in the environment that they're used to working in is something that, you know, truly helps the teams feel like they're part of something bigger, as opposed to a bunch of mercenaries that chuck some code out the door and never see it again." — Doug [45:16]
Episode Highlights & Memorable Moments
- [05:59] — Candid banter: "I didn't know we were allowed to say that on this podcast." (Re: Jira)
- [11:39] — Praise for “sprinkle pixie dust” as gentler than “lipstick on a pig” for last-minute design.
- [19:28] — “INVEST” explained—pivotal for how Atono designs its workflow and features.
- [36:44] — Generational humor: "Doug, you should never mention that we're from the DVD era."
- [41:12] — Capybara as product mascot—light-hearted touch on agent/mascot culture.
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 01:41 — Guest Intros & Their Career Journeys
- 03:47 — Defining Atono’s Approach & Differentiators
- 05:25 — Tooling: PMs vs Engineers vs Cross-functional Teams
- 09:40 — Embedding Collaboration in Process & User Stories
- 13:24 — Acceptance Criteria as First-Class Objects & Automation
- 19:28 — INVEST Mnemonic & Decomposition Challenges
- 25:48 — Feature Flags: Integration & Democratization
- 34:56 — Opinionated Tooling: Education Meets Guidance
- 36:50 — AI in Product Development—Hype, Reality, and Real Value
- 44:45 — Feature Engagement: Metrics for All, Not Just PMs
Conclusion
This episode is a must-listen for anyone grappling with the complexities of modern software product development, especially in organizations aiming for true cross-functional teamwork. Tobias and Doug offer thoughtful, sometimes provocative insights on everything from the structure of acceptance criteria and decomposing work, to the interplay of AI, automation, and product culture. Their approach with Atono is decidedly holistic, blending opinionated best practices with flexibility and democratization—removing silos, making data visible to all, and empowering every role on the product team.
If you’re interested in not just building software, but building better product teams, this conversation is packed with actionable ideas and real-world wisdom.