Podcast Summary
Podcast: Sold a Story
Episode: Emily Hanford LIVE from Planet Word with Reid Lyon and Margaret Goldberg
Release Date: December 9, 2025
Host: Emily Hanford
Guests: Reid Lyon (Neuroscientist, former chief at NIH) and Margaret Goldberg (Educator, co-founder of The Right to Read Project)
Location: Planet Word, Washington, D.C.
Overview
This episode features a live discussion examining why, despite decades of scientific consensus on how children learn to read, many schools continue using disproven methods. Host Emily Hanford brings together neuroscientist Reid Lyon and educator Margaret Goldberg to explore the intersection—and persistent disconnect—between research and the classroom, the legacy of policies like Reading First, the challenges of translating science into practice, and hopes for the future of reading education in America.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Intro & Context: Why Are We Here?
[03:21]
- Emily Hanford introduces the theme: The gap between reading research ("the science of reading") and classroom practice, and personal histories that led the guests to this work.
2. Origins: Why Did They Choose Their Paths?
Reid Lyon’s Origin Story
- Lyon struggled as a child with reading and found school humiliating ([03:36–04:15]).
- "My goal from the third grade was to get through school, get the heck out. I never thought about college." (Lyon, [03:48])
- After Vietnam War service, seeing fellow veterans lose the ability to read from brain injuries inspired his interest in reading neuroscience ([04:57–05:55]).
What Drew Lyon to Science?
- "Good mentorship...what I particularly enjoyed as a scientist was knowing my job was to always prove myself wrong." (Lyon, [06:11])
- He values scientific rigor and falsifiability, concepts often lacking in education debates.
Margaret Goldberg’s Origin Story
- Early experience: Loved a first-grade teacher, but didn’t learn to read through “whole language” methods ([07:49–09:26]).
- “I was teaching [my guinea pigs] how to read, and I didn’t know how.” (Goldberg, [09:26])
- This disconnect between teacher rapport and instructional effectiveness sparked a lifelong interest in teaching done right.
- "I realized how big a difference having a teacher who you like and who likes you makes to the learning process." (Goldberg, [10:06])
3. Initial Teacher Preparation: What Was Missing?
[11:12–14:51]
- Margaret chose a rigorous teacher training program at UC Berkeley, focused on equity and culturally responsive pedagogy—but it did not teach how to teach reading.
- Programs stressed creativity and lesson-crafting, not structured reading instruction.
- “We sang a lot of songs. We got a lot of good children’s books...and I knew nothing about how learning happens." (Goldberg, [12:19])
- Looking back, she recognizes she absorbed lots of jargon but little practical or scientific knowledge.
Attitudes Towards Federal Interventions (NCLB, Reading First)
- Goldberg recalls faculty skepticism: “We called it 'No Child Left a Mind.' It was the big governmental effort to take professionalism away from teachers.” ([13:13])
- She actively avoided schools using Reading First, wrongly viewing it as restrictive and demoralizing.
4. Reading First: Scientist’s Intentions vs. Teacher Perception
[15:14–18:14]
- Lyon’s Vision:
- Reading First aimed to move proven reading research into practice by tying school funding to evidence-based methods.
- “If you're going to be teaching kids or training teachers, base it on what we know works. It’s that simple. No big deal.” (Lyon, [17:55])
- Teacher Resistance:
- Many saw Reading First (and NCLB) as “taking away their freedom” and autonomy ([20:57]).
- Faculty reaction was not just resistant but “ballistic”: “In education, they get medieval on you.” (Lyon, [21:46])
5. Implementation & Missed Connections
[23:46–27:42]
- Margaret began taking the research seriously only when she failed to teach struggling readers in Oakland, despite her best creative efforts.
- Shocked to discover that “2 to 3% proficiency” was not normal—research showed 95% of kids can learn to read if taught appropriately ([26:41]).
- “My first grade writing journal was evidence that something magic happens...because it happened for me.” (Goldberg)
- Realized she was doing “whole language,” not systematic instruction.
6. Bridging the Gap: First Encounters
[27:42–32:44]
- Goldberg met Lyon through researcher Claude Goldenberg, expecting defensive pushback but instead found empathy and openness.
- “Teachers were not involved in any of the planning for any of these legislative initiatives...I didn’t do that.” (Lyon, [29:25])
- Both highlight the lack of common language and aligned professional knowledge as key barriers between research, policy, and classroom practice.
7. “Three-Cueing” and The Challenge of Respectful Correction
[31:41–32:44]
- Three-cueing systems (guessing words from picture/sentence/context) were quietly opposed, but policymakers feared telling teachers “you’re doing it wrong” would be disrespectful.
- “That was what was so striking to me...the perception of disrespect versus the attempt to show respect by not being explicit.” (Goldberg, [32:13])
8. What is ‘Explicit Instruction’?
[33:37–37:50]
- Teacher View (Constructivist Background):
- “Explicit” originally meant giving clear directions and then letting kids learn on their own. (Goldberg, [34:01])
- Minimal direct instruction was prized as “authentic learning.”
- Research View:
- “Explicit instruction is leaving nothing to chance...Everything needs to be pinpointed for the youngster, well defined.” (Lyon, [35:20])
- It means planning, monitoring, and re-teaching as needed—not rote, but clear and systematic guidance.
9. Current Work and Ongoing Hurdles
[38:12–42:49]
- Margaret’s Right to Read Project: Seeks to connect teachers, researchers, and activists to tangibly improve classroom practice, including collaborations to implement language and writing curricula.
- Even research-backed open-access curricula are hard for teachers to find; systemic change requires better dissemination, support, and alignment.
- Lyon: Sustainable change demands district leaders and teachers be aligned in “language of instruction,” prepared together, and have shared technical skill and empathy.
10. Live Q&A – Audience Questions
Q1: Teaching Older Struggling Readers
[45:20–47:56]
- Can adolescent non-readers still learn?
- Yes: “There’s a substantial amount of information that older kids can master all of the fundamental principles of learning how to read.” (Lyon, [46:06])
- Barriers are usually beliefs and systems, not student ability.
Q2: Lessons for International Contexts
[48:53–53:05]
- Systems approaches and common instructional alignment are essential; letting every teacher “close the door” replicates dysfunction and inequity.
- “If we rethink our profession as being part of a coherent experience for kids...then all of a sudden I need to be in alignment with my colleagues.” (Goldberg, [51:00])
Q3: Standardization vs. Personalization
[53:28–55:58]
- The “every child needs totally individualized instruction” belief is a misconception—
- “Human brains are more similar to each other than they are different...we don’t have to create tailored lesson plans for every single child.” (Goldberg, [55:24])
- The base curriculum can serve almost all, then individualize for those who need more.
11. Closing Thoughts: Hopes and Cautions for the Future
[56:38–59:17]
- Lyon is “hopeful” due to state-level legislative leadership, but warns: “It’s about a lot more than passing a law. There’s a lot of other things that have to take place.” (Lyon, [57:44])
- Goldberg: Optimistic about what’s been learned but concerned about science funding cuts and political pushback as change unfolds.
- “I hope for us to figure out we are almost there, what is it going to take to get all the way there?” (Goldberg, [58:09])
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
- “What I particularly enjoyed as a scientist was knowing my job was to always prove myself wrong.”
—Reid Lyon, [06:11] - “We sang a lot of songs...and I knew nothing about how learning happens.”
—Margaret Goldberg, [12:19] - “If you’re going to be teaching kids or training teachers, base it on what we know works. It’s that simple.”
—Reid Lyon, [17:55] - “Teachers were not involved in any of the planning for any of these legislative initiatives...I didn’t do that.”
—Reid Lyon, [29:25] - “My first grade writing journal was evidence that something magic happens...because it happened for me.”
—Margaret Goldberg, [26:41] - “Explicit instruction is leaving nothing to chance.”
—Reid Lyon (quoting Joe Torgesen), [35:20] - “Human brains are more similar to each other than they are different...we don’t have to create tailored lesson plans for every single child.”
—Margaret Goldberg, [55:24]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [03:21] — Opening topic: Speakers’ origin stories
- [04:57] — Lyon’s Vietnam & science journey
- [07:49] — Goldberg’s early teaching & reading experience
- [11:12] — Teacher prep program gaps
- [13:13] — Teacher attitudes toward external mandates
- [15:14] — Reading First: Lyon’s intent and process
- [17:55] — “Base it on what we know works” (Lyon)
- [23:58] — Goldberg’s awakening: Some kids aren’t learning to read, research gives answers
- [27:47] — First conversation between Goldberg & Lyon: mutual surprises
- [35:20] — What “explicit instruction” really means
- [38:12] — The Right to Read Project & research-to-practice efforts
- [45:20] — Q&A: Middle and high school reading instruction
- [51:00] — Systems vs. individual teacher responsibility
- [55:24] — Clarifying standardization vs. personalization
- [56:38] — Future hopes and cautions
Overall Tone
The conversation is earnest, deeply reflective, and sometimes humorous, with both guests candidly sharing their past misunderstandings and regrets, but also their determination. The tone is collegial but urgent—a shared call to move from good intentions and isolated reforms to a coherent, evidence-based profession that can serve all children.
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End of Summary