Scott Galloway (3:44)

Well, let me just say I'm really enjoying this podcast so far. Yeah, it means a lot coming from you, Henry. And the one thing that you said that surprises most people is.

Scott Galloway (3:55)

It'S not an attempt to cosplay an endocrinologist or an adolescent psychiatrist or gender studies professor. This is a lot about where I've gotten it wrong and what I've learned and where I found purpose and meaning and my quest to become a better man. But a lot of it is, quite frankly, just where I screwed up and where I got it wrong.

Henry Blodgett (4:14)

And you're incredibly open about that, which is very helpful for all of us who have screwed up and gotten it wrong and had to learn. So thank you. And so, given that you've talked about it a lot and the book lays this all out, I figured what we could really do, starting first, is talk about some of the questions that you don't address in the book. That when I brought up that we were going to talk, I had a lot of smart women in particular immediately say, well, you got to ask him this. So to get right to it, you say that a man's job is to protect, provide, and procreate. And that sounds very traditional definition of manhood. So if a man's job is to protect, provide, and procreate, what's a woman's job?

Scott Galloway (4:57)

Oh, God, that's a great question. I think a lot of the pushback I've received, it's pretty.

Scott Galloway (5:04)

Legitimate, is are you really describing what it means to be a better human and that, you know, women protect? I would argue that in many instances, women have an easier time protecting through kind of emotional labor or nurturing or being more in touch with how people are Feeling.

Scott Galloway (5:24)

My son is home right now. And my wife's ability to say something's wrong or to hear when they were little, them getting up in the morning, she just had those skills. I did not. At the same time, I think it's different nuance around protection. So men are. There's 81 or 80. There's an award called the Carnegie Award where they give people an award for risking their own lives to save someone else's who they don't know. Literally they're running into a burning house award. And every year they give about 80 and on average 75 go to men. Some people call men reckless and more risk aggressive, but it also can be valor. So I think this notion of immediately trying to establish prosperity and be a provider needs to move to protection. And I think men can offer a different type of protection.

Scott Galloway (6:16)

Some of it.

Scott Galloway (6:18)

Look, I. Let me be crude. I think when Russian soldiers come pouring over the border in Ukraine, you want some big dick energy. And I don't think there's anything wrong. I think that men's propensity to action, which in many instances can be framed as reckless. Sometimes it can be bold and it can be valorous or whatever the term is. I love what Richard Reeves says. You want someone invaluable in a shipwreck and acceptable at a dance. But I do think a woman provides a lot of those things also. And this feels like a land acknowledgement, but I believe it. I don't think these attributes are sequestered to people born as men or women. I think a lot of women demonstrate wonderful masculinity. I think a lot of men demonstrate wonderful femininity. My closest friends tend to be more feminine in nature. I like men. My close friends kind of take care of me. But I would say that there is a bit of a difference in that is people. The 95% of people born as binary are going to have an easier time leaning into certain feminine and masculine attributes. And on the provider standpoint, I think it's wonderful that women are making more money. We should do nothing to get in the way of that. But we also have to have an honest conversation that society and men themselves and women's sexual interest is directly linked to a man's ability to signal resources. And I don't care how many subscriptions to the Atlantic and the New York Times you have, it's going to be several thousand years before we probably figure that out. Does that mean we shouldn't embrace women in the workplace? Does that mean they shouldn't have the same rights Rights as anybody else. No, but there has been some knock on effects around men flailing economically, young men, and that is if you look at. I'm turning this into a word salad. If you look at. Because I'm feeling defensive, because that's a really good question. But if you look at married couples, when the woman in the relationship starts making more money than the man, the rate of divorce, the likelihood of divorce doubles and the use of ED drugs triples. So I do think there are certain attributes around the nuance of protection and providing and procreating that are different than a woman's. I think a woman enjoys procreating as much as a man, but men, quite frankly, are just less choosy. And something that has worked for a long time is that men feel an obligation to spread their seed to the four corners of the earth and women have an obligation to put up a much finer filter and pick the strongest, smartest and fastest seed. That is the basis of evolution. It's the reason why your kids will be smarter and taller than you, Henry. And what we have is this general illusion that we approach sexuality the same way and that to assume that we approach it in different ways is somehow sexist. It's not true. 80% of women still expect men to initiate romantic contact. And men have received mixed messages. And some men, quite frankly, young men aren't leveling up and being as attractive as they should or want to be given their expectations around forming a relationship. Long winded way of saying it's an accurate question. I'm struggling with the answer.

Henry Blodgett (9:18)

All right, let's go back because there's so, so much in the answer that I want to come back to that you said first I read the sentence in the book about the storming the beaches at Normandy and Russians crossing the border and you want the big dick energy to stop it. And what I thought about, and I say this being just such an incredible.

Henry Blodgett (9:38)

Study of World War II and the movies and everything else. If it happened today, the forces stopping that or going on the beaches in Normandy would have lots of women. I don't know, it'd be 50. 50, I agree, but you'd be so. I think that that one we can say, hey, you know, that's open to all genders too. And I think the reason you are hearing from people saying, hey, this should be directed to all genders, not just boys and men, is that I think most women would say, whoa, wait a minute, you know, my job is to protect, provide and procreate also. And why don't we have a discussion about who has to, because there's a lot to do. And by the way, I can now go out in the workforce and compete very well, too. And I think when some people hear it, what they say is, hey, wow, Scott's saying, you know, the men are the only ones who can be out there and compete in the man's world, and the woman should be where she was in 1950s, in the kitchen, taking care of the kids and so forth. I know you're not saying that that is certainly not your household, but what. What then do you think is the problem? We talk a lot about this crisis of masculinity. What's the problem?

Scott Galloway (10:46)

Well, so first off, I want to acknowledge that sometimes being a provider is getting out of the way of your partner and being more supportive because she's better at this whole money thing than you. And I also think that's part of being a provider is being supportive and maybe providing more emotional and logistical labor at home. Because if you look at divorce rates that have skyrocketed in the last 40 years, in many ways, it's a good thing because women no longer feel economically indentured to a partner. And also, men have not kept pace with women's ascent, and that is, women are ascending financially and professionally, and men have not kept pace emotionally and logistically. So oftentimes the woman in the relationship wakes up and says, okay, you're no longer the provider, and you haven't stepped up in terms of the emotional labor that women usually provide at home. I'm out. And also, I do think, at the end of the day, I think that there is an issue where oftentimes women aren't as sexually attracted to their mate when he is not demonstrating kind of socioeconomic status at or above her level.

Scott Galloway (11:49)

I think there's just too many studies showing that that's still the case. 75% of women say economic viability is still hugely important in a mate. It's only 25% of men. Beyonce could work at McDonald's and marry Jay Z. The opposite is just not true. So there is a delta there that I think we need to acknowledge. At the same time, I agree that we need to be more thoughtful about how do we teach our young men that there are different means of contribution, different means of protecting and providing and procreating. But if you read the book, the most legitimate criticism of the book, I think, is that Scott reverse engineers finding a mate.

Scott Galloway (12:31)

And being economically secure to all this behavior. That's the end state goal, and that there Are some people who aren't totally focused on winning capitalism and maybe finding a romantic partner. And they need to be happy too. And maybe we need to talk about how that person finds purpose and meaning without either or both of those things. I think that's a really solid criticism and it hit me hard when I heard it. The criticism I choke on a little bit when I know people haven't read the book is that they say, okay, here's another dude blaming women for men's problems. Men are killing themselves at four times the rate of women. If you walk into a Morgue and there's five people that died by suicide, four are men. Only one in three men have a relationship under the age of 30. Two in three women, that seems statistically impossible. It's not because women are dating older, because they want more economically and emotionally viable men. You have in the next five years, you might have two female college graduates for every one male college graduate. So men on almost every dimension are just falling behind. They're just descending. One in seven men is now considered a NEET. It's tripled in the last 40 years. A NEET is someone neither in education, employment or in training. There are millions of fully able bodied men who are no longer even trying. 63% of men under the age of 30 have given up on dating. 45% of men 18 to 24 have never asked a woman out in person. So I worry that young men are not attaching to work, not attaching to school, not attaching to romantic partners. And they wake up at 30, obese, angry, more prone to conspiracy theory, more prone to blaming immigrants for their economic problems, more prone to blaming women for their romantic problems. And they become, quite frankly, shitty citizens and the most dangerous person in the world. And there's a lot of history around this, and I know you're a student of history. The most unstable, violent countries in the world have a preponderance of one thing, and that is broke, lonely men with very little romantic or economic opportunities. And they get weaponized, usually by nationalists and told it's not their fault. Demonize special interest groups. And we found them in some very dark places there. So the problem is we're reverting a little bit to the laws of the jungle, where young men who are more aggressive, quite frankly more violent, oftentimes if they don't have purpose or meaning in their lives, they create a very unstable factor in society and, or put another way, I don't think the country and women are going to continue to flourish as long as Men, young men are flailing. And the group that's been most supportive of the work hasn't been young men, it's been mothers. And what I hear from mothers is the following. I have three kids, two daughters, one son, one daughter in pr, one daughter, a pen. And my son is in the basement playing video games and vaping. So the data is just overwhelming. The young men are struggling, unfortunately, because of the unearned privilege of our generation. Henry, they're being held accountable. We had unfair wind in our sails. 1945 to 2000, a third of the world's economic growth was crammed into the 5% of the population that was America. And then within that 5%, the majority of the prosperity was crammed into the 1/3 of the population that was white, male and heterosexual. You and I had an unfair advantage. But what has happened? And in many ways, I'm the wrong messenger for this message because people hear me and they have an understandable gag reflex. Well, okay, Scott, you've had a 3,000 year head start.

Scott Galloway (16:01)

You made this world and now your hair's on fire. And my response is, I get it, be angry at me, I have a debt. But should we be holding a 19 year old male accountable for my unearned privilege?

Henry Blodgett (16:13)

So let me say, I have read the book and let me say very clearly, you do not blame women in any way. I mean, that is crazy. And you celebrate the fact that women are doing incredibly well and there are opportunities for women that really haven't been there before. And I think what a lot of people hear when they hear, hey, men, you know, start working out, get out there, protect, provide, procreate is what they hear is, let's roll back the clock, 1950s. That's your role. You gotta provide. And so let me give you a little more context, which is I was raised in the same era as you, same idea. The man's job is to go be a titan of industry. The woman's job in my little subculture that I grew up in, which was quite privileged, was support the man and do charity. And so I was raised to do that. And that was a then, you know, and I would have struggled had I not been able, felt like I was doing that. And then the other thing that I want to stress is that you have sons. And so I can hear throughout the book, you know, you want to say like, I don't want this to happen to you. I want you to have confidence and get out there and do great things and sounds like you're an amazing dad, even Though your sons think you're totally uncool, which my children do, too. One difference, though, is I have daughters and I. I want the best for them. And I'll tell you what I don't want. I don't want them to have to go back to the kitchen or just raise the kids unless they want to, and they can find a Scott Galloway to be their husband and go out and kill Impala and. And make sure they're totally set for life. And I also don't want them to have to give up their own economic opportunities to have a man say, hey, love you now, but, you know, if something more exciting comes along, I'm out of here, and maybe you'll get a good little settlement and then that'll be that. Like, I want them to have their own life. So what I do here. And again, this part of this comes from a little focus group of some of the smart women, including my daughters, is that, you know, we got to sort of reconcile. Like, how does a modern family work here? And let's go back to the study, which you cite very clearly. It's very startling, which is, as you say, women tend to marry at their equal financial level or up. Men tend to marry down. And so I guess my question for you is, is part of the solution instead of saying to all men, get out of the basement, get out there, start making more than your wife to actually say, you know, it's okay.

Scott Galloway (18:45)

I'm.

Henry Blodgett (18:46)

I want my wife to do better than I do, and that's okay, and I'm not threatened by that, and I will support her, and I will be a, what let's call it a trad wife. I will be at home, I will take care of the home while my wife goes out and conquers the world because she's better at that than I am. Is that another way to be a man today?

Scott Galloway (19:05)

I agree with half of that. I would still urge men to get out of the basement, but I would also urge them to recognize that there are different forms of providing and that one of the most important things that's happened in American Society the last 80 years is that we embrace women's entry into the factories. During World War II, Hitler said women should stay at home and raise kids. We said a woman can assemble a P51 just as well as a man. And had we not made that decision, we probably still would have won the war. But it would have taken several years longer if we had not embraced women's entry into the workforce in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, we would probably be second rate power behind China economically. So women's entry and equal rights in education and in the workplace has been paramount to our success. The far right, to their credit, recognized the problem with men before anybody else. The problem with that was their remedy was to take non whites and women back to the 50s. Charlie Kirk's message started off fine. You know, be involved in your church, be fit, be active, find a partner, find a mate. Where it came off the track was saying that basically envisioning a role for women that was straight out of the 50s. And then claiming that these women who went to work and became economically viable and worked hard and became partners of law firms or Goldman, that they're desperately unhappy. That's bullshit. The research shows that there's a cartoon of a woman who works on her career, ends up in her 30s alone, never found romantic love, and she's sitting in a windowsill with a big baggy sweater looking out with her tea and all she has is cats and she' really depressed. The reality is the research shows she's just fine. Yeah, maybe she's lonely, maybe she would have liked the opportunity to have a family. But guess what? She oftentimes when a woman doesn't have a romantic relationship, pours that energy into her friend network and into her professional life and finds other places to give and receive love. When a man hasn't cohabitated with a woman by the time he's 30 or married, there's a 1 in 3 chance he's going to be a substance abuser. All of the research indicates that men need relationships more than women. Actually widows are happier after their husband dies. Widowers are are less happy after their wife dies. Women in relationships do live longer, two to four years, but men live a good four to seven years longer. So at the same time the left says, well, okay, to young men you don't have problems, you are the problem. And their answer to the crisis of young men is the following. If you were just more in touch with your emotions and if you acted more like a woman, I don't think that's helpful either. So is there a middle ground that says all right, in a capitalist society, if you are not economically viable, the world, potential mates and your own self esteem are going to be hugely damaged. It is very hard to operate in a capitalist society as a man if you are not economically viable. Some of that viability might come from different forms of contribution. One of the people I, the first person I write about in the book is a guy named Paul Fine. He was my best friend's father in law. He met his wife, he was a law student at 23, she was a 30 year old with two kids. They've spent 55 years together. This guy was the quintessential California stud, for lack of a better term. 240Z, then a Porsche and a Ferrari. Handsome, got me into working out, nice, quiet.

Scott Galloway (22:34)

But the reason I bring up Paul is that the last 10 years of his life and of his wife's life, Devorah, he's been a full time caregiver. She's really struggling, really struggling. And that is a form of what I'd call protection and providing. And that's not traditionally seen.

Scott Galloway (22:53)

As a masculine attribute. And I would like to figure out, okay, how do we reconcile that men still are disproportionately evaluated on their contribution economically while also recognizing that if they don't, maybe for a while, if they aren't the economic contributor, that there's an opportunity to demonstrate leadership, humanity, masculinity by being, I don't know, a greater contributor around emotional labor, but I do. My wife worked at Goldman when I was younger. She made more money than me, so I made my best to get home for bath time. I was a professor to contribute and we're a team together.

Scott Galloway (23:36)

So I do think there needs to be an updated version of what it means to be a provider and that we need to do a better job of celebrating some of the emotional labor and protection men can provide at home. I'll give you an example. I think men need to work harder to stay married. I think it's really good for kids to stay married and it's hard and a successful man may have more temptation than someone who's unsuccessful. I think a means of being a protector is to do your best to stay married, to notice your partner, and try really hard to stay in the game, even when it's not easy.

Henry Blodgett (24:15)

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Henry Blodgett (26:06)

Let me go back to what you just said about Goldman. You didn't talk about this in the book. Your wife at Goldman. So you were in a situation where your wife was making more than you. You were a professor.

Scott Galloway (26:16)

You.

Henry Blodgett (26:17)

Did you not feel like a man?

Scott Galloway (26:21)

No, because, look, I don't think people get out the measuring stick exactly.

Scott Galloway (26:30)

I think what happens is men have to come to grips with the modern world and we have to train our boys. This, that when more women are in graduate school and we live in an information economy, that your partner may make more money than you. But as a man, to be a provider, you need to provide in a number of ways. And sometimes that might be being more supportive of your partner. It might be managing the finances. It might be, quite frankly, getting your act together and getting the help you need to be more professionally viable. I find a lot of men just can't handle the idea of. I mean, I literally meet men, Henry, who want their wife home barefoot and pregnant, and they're not making that much money. And it's like, well, okay, how are you going to afford your apartment on the Upper west side? So I do think there needs to be something from an earlier age that trains our young men to think, okay, you're part of a unit. You're part of a family unit. I didn't feel that way because I had made a lot of money at past points in my life. You'll appreciate I've been rich three times, which means I've lost it twice. I lost it in 2000. All of it. I crawled my way back, lost it all again in 08. Where I felt humiliation or shame is when my son And I talk about this in the book, came marching out of my girlfriend at the time.

Scott Galloway (27:52)

It was like literally several months after Layman had filed. And I was broke. I was more than broke. I was in debt. And the first sensation I felt was, was one of fear, anxiety and shame. Because up until that point when I took a ton of risks professionally and went all in on my Internet company or whatever it is, and it didn't work out, I'm like, I'm a talented guy, I work hard, I have a lot of advantages, I'll be fine. But when I thought, oh my gosh, I've not only failed for me, I've now failed for this kid. And I had all these, this sense of obligation and protection. I was so nauseous in the delivery room, I had to sit down. And they thought it was because I was squeamish. I just felt all this shame. Now, I think some of that protective instinct is probably a healthy thing, but I always felt like, okay, as long as I'm contributing, as long as I'm economically viable, as long as I like to think I was super supportive those first few years at Goldman, when my wife had two babies at home, I tried to be super supportive. And relationships aren't 50, 50. Occasionally they go 90, 10. I think I was contributing more at home because I had more time and more flexibility as an entrepreneur. And then several years later, when we moved to Florida, I was like, okay, now I'm making good money. I can kind of take the mantle here. So conceptually, it's a team. You're both contributing. You're both constantly trying to figure out how you contribute on different levels. What I haven't reconciled with or I don't have solutions for other than lifting up all young people, which I think will disproportionately help men, just as the economic attack of people under the age of 30 has disproportionately hurt men. The reality is, the research is just very clear. Men struggle or have an additional form of anxiety when they lose their economic status in a household. Now, I don't know if that's learning education or we just have to adapt as a species, given there's more women seeking graduate education. But we at least need to acknowledge it's an issue and that it's also getting in the way of household formation. 60% of 30 year olds used to have a kid in the house. Now it's 27%. So I guess the question is, how can we create economic policies that make young people economically viable? Because like If I'm making a couple hundred grand a year at a VC backed startup and my wife's making 400 at Goldman, it's not like she doesn't want to have sex with me. But if all of a sudden I get laid off and I can't recover and I'm jealous and not that supportive of her and wallowing in my own self fucking pity, that's not very attractive.

Henry Blodgett (30:29)

No, no it is not. But maybe the message is. So I had to get out there and get a job for 800,000 and out earn her. And then I felt like a man.

Scott Galloway (30:38)

Just get a job.

Henry Blodgett (30:39)

No, get a job.

Scott Galloway (30:40)

So that's fine.

Henry Blodgett (30:41)

So it's contributing because I felt the same pressure that you did. And look when Elliot Spitzer went after me on Wall street and threw me in a trash can in My Kids are There, it's like I wanted to do something to make them proud and contribute and so forth. And fortunately that all worked out. And so I totally feel that. What I would suggest is you also talk in the book about a lot about how for you the key to attracting a woman was the ability to basically show resources and be rich and have money. And all I'm saying is your amazing sounding wife apparently actually didn't care that much about the money in the beginning. If you were a professor and she was a Goldman and yet it was still great. You were married and you had a great team and you still do there.

Scott Galloway (31:27)

I did some research on this and there's a lot of research on sexual attraction. And women are sexually attracted to men for three reasons. Number one is their ability to signal resources. Now that's the bad news. You show up with a Range Rover and a Panerai. That signals resources. But the good news is also it's signaling future resources. It's also having your act together. I'm in school to learn how to install H Vac energy heaters. I can't stay out till 2 in the morning. I have a plan. I have shit to do in the morning. The reason why women are drawn to men who are in shape is not because of the aesthetics. It's because it shows their discipline and they can show up and it means that they'll probably be a good provider. But just all the research shows a man's ability to signal. Look Andrew, you know the case here. Like you see a dude who's 5 foot 0 and 240 pounds and brightens up a room by leaving it and he's with a high character, attractive woman. I'll Give you one guess about his economics. You know the deal there, he's wealthy. That's number one. Number two is intellect. And it's instinctual. Your ability to make good decisions ensures or increases the likelihood that your family and the tribe will survive the fastest way, by the way, to communicate. Intellect is humor. And I jokingly say, this is my impersonation of a woman. I'm laughing, I'm laughing, I'm naked. And I've just always said, and it triggers people, if you can make a woman laugh, she will grab coffee with you. Also, to be funny is not something you can force. Some people just aren't funny. Other people are naturally funny. But laugh out loud, have a great sense of humor. That means that people will be drawn to you. And the third thing, and this is all research based, that is the secret weapon for attracting a mate. And the most underleveraged and under recognized attribute is kindness. And it comes from a very instinctual place. Women believe that they will likely at some point in their lives gestate and that they will be vulnerable and they want someone kind. And there's a difference between kindness and being nice. Women sense out when you're being nice because you want to have sex with them or impress them. Do you have good manners? Are you planting trees the shade of which you won't sit under? Do you have a kindness practice? Are you patient? Do you go out of your way to do things for people when there's no reciprocal expectation? Women notice this. And it's not only being a good human being, good for the world, but it is the most underleveraged weapon in the mating world is kindness. And men think that they need to be strong or performative or constantly boast about, about themselves. And also I talk very openly. I was not born a kind person. Some people are just born giving. I was not everything was about me, literally fucking me all the time until about the age of 40. And then I realized, okay, I gotta get beyond this. And I started a kindness practice. It starts with manners. And every day try and go out of your way to do something kind of. And what happens is you start to develop that muscle memory. And I do think you can become a kinder person. I'd like to think I've become much kinder because it's become muscle memory for me. But the reasons why women are attracted to men are very basic. But what is under leveraged is this kindness practice. But we still, again, I don't think we have an honest conversation around. I mean, there's this Big movement online. Have you seen this? Women being asked about mating. Six feet, six figures. Six feet, six figures. Bare minimum. That's not unreasonable, right? Six feet, six figures. If you take out married men, men over the age of 50, and obese men, that's 2% of the population. So the online dating world, whenever you digitize a part of the economy, it becomes winner take most. We've digitized mating. People used to meet at work, through friends, at school. Now they meet on dating apps, and it's an immediate impression, does this person meet my qualifications? And so the top 10% of men get 80% of the attention, leaving 90% of the men fighting over whatever it is, 20% of the women. So mating has been consolidated. And what we used to have in mating is the following. If you talk to people who've been married longer than 30 years, 80% of them say one was much more interested than the other in the beginning, and it was usually the man who was much more interested than the woman in the beginning. Again, women are choosier because the downside of sex is much greater and their fertility window is shorter. They are choosier. They are hardwired to be chooser. If you're in a room with 100 people, 50 men, 50 women, and there's alcohol, the majority of the men would agree to have sex with the majority of the women. The majority of the women would have sex with none of the men. Women are choosier. What happened, though, with these couples? What they will say is, over time, the man was able to demonstrate excellence. We went to the same church, and I saw how kind he was to his parents. We worked together, and he was so talented. We hung out in the same friend group, and he was funny. I liked the way he danced. I liked the way he smelled. I went on a second date with him, and when he relaxed, I found that he was just super interesting. Where does a man demonstrate excellence now? They're not going to church. They're not going to school. Many aren't even going into work anymore. So what we have is an absence of connection. And I'm not suggesting that it's great for women, but it appears to be especially hard on young men. So I don't. You know, I find that when we have these conversations, we do it in a vacuum of the way the world should be according to the woke narrative and don't want to acknowledge thousands of years of instinct around what's actually happening. I'll end with an example that triggers people. I think, on a date, the man Pays. And I've told my sons, when you're in the company of women, you pay for everything. And my son's like, that's so boomer. Da, da, da. We should split the check. And I'm like, okay, but be clear.

Scott Galloway (37:32)

A woman who you split the check with is never going to kiss you. And I stand by that. Mammals have mating rituals. And one of those mating rituals is you want to demonstrate strength and you want to demonstrate commitment. And also my land acknowledgement here, my more rational justification for men should pay for everything is the following. Men benefit more from relationships than women. The downside of sex is much greater for women than it is for men. The fertility window for a woman is much shorter. Her you are going to benefit as a man more from the relationship on average than the woman. The downside of sex is greater for her than for you. And her time is more valuable than yours because you can have kids in your 50s, she cannot. So one way to recognize the asymmetry in the relationship that accretes benefit to you and to also acknowledge that there is a mating, courtship and a ritual. And to demonstrate you not only recognize the asymmetry, but you want to demonstrate valor, you want to demonstrate a commitment to this relationship is you pay. I'm not suggesting all the time, if a woman asks a man out, fine, she can pay. But generally speaking, when in the company and women gets, I find a lot of women and men get triggered by this. I'm like, has anyone ever slept with you that you split the check with?

Henry Blodgett (38:51)

Anyway, Anyway, it's no wonder you're the top rated podcaster. You put it that way. I would say that, yes, I will let women to speak to whether they want the baby.

Scott Galloway (39:01)

Did you split the check with your wife, Henry?

Henry Blodgett (39:02)

I do not split it. I pay. And I do feel hopelessly old fashioned in that, but I hope it is appreciated.

Scott Galloway (39:08)

And what do you tell your daughters when they go on a date? Do you tell them to split the check?

Henry Blodgett (39:11)

I have not had that conversation. It's a good question. All right, so let's talk a little bit more. But, so here's the thing. Like I you, you're studying the research. You're telling your sons, hey guys, you know, the research says you're not going to get a mate if you don't make a lot of money. Get out there and make money. Nobody. I'm not in no way suggesting that we shouldn't have skills that are marketable and a career that we're proud of. That's interesting. That has Opportun. I hope that for both. But one thing I did check because with my focus group of brilliant, capable women, I said, is Scott right? Isn't it really that you just want them to be able to write checks, take care of you, make you feel like, yeah, I scored an incredible Impala hunter out there. Isn't that really it? I got a lot of stone faces saying, actually, Henry, what I would like is, yes, a smart, capable, together in shape person, although not necessarily one who is in the gym for four hours a day, but who is flexible and is going to enter a partnership with me and say, okay, right now my career is going really well. Let me drive my career for a while. You do more of the housework and so forth and is flexible. And in fact, I had one person say, very funny, said, tell you what, the only thing women have no interest in or patience for, it's sitting around watching guys do jack shit because their feelings are hurt. Get up here and start helping. So that's all I'd say is in this modern maleness is part of it just saying like, yeah, that's great if my wife earns more than I do, even though I have a skill and a career and I'm contributing or I'm staying home with the kids.

Scott Galloway (40:58)

Women making more money is instrumental to our economy and makes households safer and more loving. The primary cause of divorce isn't infidelity or lack of shared values. It's economic anxiety. And this notion that women, the far right will say that women entered into this false. They bought this myth that they'd be happy if they worked and became economically secure. And now they're alone and don't have kids and they're depressed. Okay, so your suggestion was that they end up like my mom with a son and no economic viability. Like, of course they should be economically viable. Of course they should go for it. And at some point they might say, you know, I think I'd get more reward spending more time at home with the kids and hopefully as a team, you decide that that might work. The man might decide that on average more women are going to decide that's what makes them happier than a man. I think women on average get more reward from what I'll call a relational reward. Relationships and men get more reward from ego and affirmation. So.

Scott Galloway (42:11)

This is what it comes down to.

Scott Galloway (42:14)

Everyone has to bring a partnership. That's the term. And if the dude is in, generally speaking, society sort of says, has these gender roles that the female will contribute more emotional labor and that the man will contribute more, quote unquote economic viability. Things have changed. The majority of that change is a good thing. What I would suggest to any man is you need to be economically viable and part of that economic viability might be more supportive. Taking on a more non traditional role fixing, run the household, be good, be a great dad, pick up the slack domestically. When my wife was a Goldman making a shit ton of money or more than me, I tried, I picked up the slack. But we also have to recognize that it is society tends to be judgmental on those men. They tend to discount them a little bit, not take them as seriously as a woman can be. A super impressive woman who's focused on raising great kids and providing a loving, secure household. I'm not sure many people refer to a guy as a really impressive guy who's a stay at home dad. I think there needs to be a societal change. I think it's going to take a while. But what you have, I think with a lot of men, again that, that rate that erectile dysfunction drugs goes up threefold when the woman in the partnership starts making more money. I think that's because a lot of men unfortunately lose their self esteem that they think, yeah, I think that's fucked up. Yeah.

Henry Blodgett (43:47)

And I, I believe that. And but given that that's the reality, unless we're saying like, hey, women like whoa, they're like, you know, the man are just getting a little bit too intimidated by you, chill out, don't do so well and so forth. I feel like part of the message has to be and I feel like you would be a great person to deliver it because you have this amazing ability to say what you think regardless of whether people scream or throw fruit at you or whatever. Like you're bold to say, like, so what if society says, oh, he's just not, he's not being a man, like man up, do it, be part of the partnership. And then yes, when you have an opportunity, advance your own self or go to the gym or whatever it is. But in the meantime, help.

Scott Galloway (44:36)

I think that's entirely accurate. But let's, let's move to solutions. Part of it is society not shaming or diminishing a man's masculinity because they decide at that moment it'd be better if he took on more emotional labor than his partner who happens to be killing it professionally. Absolutely. Let's encourage society to embrace that, that, let's encourage men to not feel bad about themselves.

Scott Galloway (45:02)

The part that's probably a little bit harder is you haven't talked about a woman's responsibility and still being attracted to a man who doesn't make as much. I mean, the six feet, six figures.

Henry Blodgett (45:12)

Thing, if that checks out, I get you. And I do hear the height thing a lot.

Scott Galloway (45:15)

People a lot of time. I think there's some cognitive, I think there's some dissonance between what people say they want and what they actually want in terms of their behavior, what their behavior reflects. People say they want a more sensitive man. A more sensitive man. The research shows that women aren't really drawn sexually to sensitive men. That that just leaves two people in the car crying in the parallel parking space empty. I think what women want and what the research shows is they want someone to notice their lives. That okay, do you notice how fucking hard I'm working? And I'm also maintaining a disproportionate amount of the home duty. Do you recognize that this is not all about you, that I want stages where strangers applaud for me? Do you recognize I would like the affirmation of others? Do you notice me? Do you notice that I might have different priorities about you and that the marriage just isn't about me in a support role of your fucking awesomeness?

Scott Galloway (46:14)

So what I think the research says and what I've aspired to and how I coach men is. I don't know the word sensitive. I get it. Be thoughtful. But I don't know if women want a sensitive man. The most sensitive men I know usually aren't the ones women are most drawn to. I think what women want and what makes for a good partnership is the man makes a real effort to notice the people in his lives. To say, I care so much about you that even if something's not important to me, if it's important to you, then it becomes important to me. And I realized this whole thing isn't a support system around me being a baller to strangers. And the affirmation of strangers that your professional life has meaning, that we're going to build something together, that what you're doing, that what you're doing, whether it's professionally, for God's sakes, like, you're just fucking amazing. The fact that you've been able to achieve these professional things. It's time for me to make ends up that you really love being a baller professionally. Well, it's time for me to take on a support role because I can really help you. But men are not going to be as sensitive. And again, and this is somewhat snarky and the highest rates of divorce, lowest rates of divorce, gay men.

Scott Galloway (47:36)

Next lowest straight couples. By far the highest rates of divorce are with lesbian marriages. And I always joke it's because both women are listening and there is something to masculine and feminine energy that creates what I would call very productive households. That's not to say that gay households can't have the same outcomes, but I think a mix of masculine and feminine energy is the most important alliance in history. Sometimes two women can bring that mix, two men can bring that mix. But when I hear online that women just want a sensitive man, I'm gonna call bullshit. I think they want someone who notices their life, who demonstrates strength, who is kind, will be a good provider. Which can mean other things other than economics. But I think a lot of the narrative online was from an editor at the Atlantic who's married to a fucking caveman.

Henry Blodgett (48:37)

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Henry Blodgett (50:18)

So one of the problems I think here is that, and Paul Krugman has talked about this, is that we are seeing a decline in the number of what Paul Krugman and Donald Trump might describe as manly jobs. Manufacturing, outside construction, all that stuff we are seeing a lot of our job growth is in healthcare, nursing, homemades, jobs that as Paul Krugman describes as female coded. So is another part of the solution. And you have advocated for a big increase in minimum wage to $25 an hour, minimum, which I think makes great sense. We Cann have this idea where huge corporations that make tens of billions of dollars in operating income pay full time workers so little that they're poor. I, I'm sorry, we have to fix that. So you're addressing that. But is it also do men.

Henry Blodgett (51:13)

Have to be proud of taking jobs that are female coded or have been? Is that part of it?

Scott Galloway (51:21)

I definitely think we need to.

Scott Galloway (51:25)

And the question is, how do you do it? Is it more? You know, some men make great nurses, women are going to make better doctors. There's more women in medical school now than men. They have better bedside manner. If I say women make better managers or women are likely going to make better doctors, everyone politely nods and claps. If I say men are better in combat and on a risk adjusted basis, oftentimes make better entrepreneurs because they're more risk aggressive. People don't feel safe around me. So it doesn't appear to me that people really want to have an honest conversation around acknowledging there are some differences which in no way diminishes the opportunities presented to each sex. But yeah, let's stop. First off, that the genderized, the labor that's typically thought of as being more gendered for females in the healthcare industry, I oftentimes think that's used as an excuse to pay them less than they're worth. And that for example, 70 to 80% of primary school teachers are women. And I think that as a means of increasing the number of men in the field. And also I'm not saying offer men more money, I'm saying pay teachers more, but also degendering. And I don't know if you can do this. Some of the healthcare and support work where men feel some, you know, it's like that first movie from Ben Stiller, Meet the Fockers where he's embarrassed to say he's a nurse. So yeah, the question is, how do we do that? And what I go to is specific economic programs and that is men have been disproportionately hurt by this economic tilting where we transfer money from the young to the old. I think pretty much every fiscal policy or the story of America last 40 years is let's have old people vote themselves more money. We transfer $1.2 trillion a year in the form of Social Security. It's the greatest transfer of capital in history. It happens every year from young to old and we're transferring it to the wealthiest generation in history. You and I should not get Social Security. If minimum wage had kept pace with productivity and inflation, it'd be 23 bucks an hour. Let's raise it to 25. Universal childcare. Child tax credit gets stripped out of the infrastructure bill because it's $40 billion, but the $120 billion a year cost of living adjustments, Social Security flies right through. Let's. Just as the economic.

Scott Galloway (53:42)

Transfer of wealth from young to old has disproportionately hurt young men, who are often looked to by society and themselves for being at least economically viable, I think the best solution would be to raise up all young people and stop using their credit card to prop up our prosperity. Tax holiday, alternative minimum tax on people making more than a million dollars. Get rid of capital gains tax deduction and mortgage interest rate, which is nothing but a transfer of wealth from young to old who make their money with current income and rent. You and I make our income from selling stocks and we own. So just as an outsourcing of manufacturing jobs and a lack of economic opportunity for young people has disproportionately hurt men, I'm not a fan of, like, leveling up young men with like, you know, mail bonds or something. Let's lift up, let's stop this massive transfer of wealth from young to old. And I think that will go a long way towards helping young men and young families. Does the man need to make more money than the woman? No. But when there's economic anxiety in the household.

Scott Galloway (54:47)

It takes a toll on everyone. But I would argue when there's economic anxiety, society, and unwittingly, the husband and the wife hold the man disproportionately responsible for that failure and that anxiety. So let's try and eliminate some of that anxiety for all young people and level them up and stop this insane intergenerational theft that we've all participated in the last 40 years.

Henry Blodgett (55:14)

I think there are some terrific ideas there. And I just. Going back to the point at hand about young men in particular, it's. There is no way we are gonna rebuild manufacturing to what it was in the 1950s and 60s in this country. And even if we were, you'd probably have a lot of women who. Who wanted those jobs. And so part of the solution does seem to me to be we need to make it okay for men to work in industries that are growing very rapidly, that provide incredibly important services like healthcare and so forth. And I do think part of that is money, but as you point out, part of that's money because their industries are just so egregiously unpaid.

Henry Blodgett (55:58)

Or poorly paid. So this is great. And you've gotten a lot of Your incredibly good advice in the book in there I just. Let's tell us about your mother because you have the incredible vivid scenes in the book where your father was very successful. They seemed to have a happy marriage for a little while, then they didn't. And you have some awful scenes about the breakup. And suddenly you were left as a young boy and your mom was making $800 a month and you had no money and you had to move from a great house to a crappy apartment and you could have gone south fast. And yet what I heard just so vividly in the book was your mom basically somehow saved your ass.

Scott Galloway (56:40)

That's a generous question. A lot of my life was my mom. It still is. I'm a 61 year old man that's not over the death of his mother. It was me and her against the world. My parents both pulled out of school at the age of 13, were living the American dream. We lived in a house in Orange County. If you stood on your toes, you could see the ocean. My dad was not what you'd call a high character man. Married and divorced four times, Left his last wife when she had late stage Parkinson's. And you know, the bottom line is my dad was this handsome guy with a Scottish accent. And I jokingly say in 70s California, that meant you could not only think with your dick, you could listen to it. My dad was just out of control and my mom decided to leave. And unfortunately at that time, my mom wasn't very sophisticated. I'm not sure if she got bad legal advice, but we went from being upper middle class to lower middle class what felt like overnight. And it was really hard on my mom. And.

Scott Galloway (57:41)

There'S a lot of evidence that shows the single point of failure. If you reverse engineer when a boy comes off the tracks, it's when he loses a male role model. And what's interesting, through death, divorce or abandonment. What's interesting is that girls in single parent homes have similar outcomes of college attendance, of income, of self harm. Boys when they lose a male role model at that moment become more likely to be incarcerated than graduate from college. The research shows the following, that while boys are physically stronger, they're mentally and neurologically much weaker than girls. And so the importance of having a male role model is really important for men. And even just stating that five years ago seemed to upset people that, oh, you don't think women can raise men? I'm like, no, my mom was there for me, she was wonderful. But there is evidence that shows that boys especially need men in Their life. And we were never poor. Henry My life wasn't hard, but what I say is that, and one of the reasons I feel like men of our generation have a debt is that I got assisted lunch. I didn't get free lunch, but I got assisted lunch. And they used to mail the coupons to us so I wouldn't be embarrassed. And the coupons looked the same as everyone else. I always thought that was such a, like a thoughtful government program. I got Pell Grants. I got into UCLA because it had a 74% admissions rate. I had a 3.1 from high school, 11:30 on the SAT. I got into UCLA. 74% admissions. This year it's going to be 9%. I talk about this openly when I was a senior in high school, I was 17, my mom was 47. She became pregnant and.

Scott Galloway (59:19)

Family planning was accessible. Had we been in a red state, we were not very sophisticated. We did not have a lot of money. It might have been so difficult that maybe she would have carried that baby to term. I would have not gone to college. I would have done the right thing and stayed around and helped my mom. I got Pell Grants. I came of age during the Internet when middle class taxpayers made these forward leaning investments in technologies, mostly for the military, that spilled over into the private sector. Immigrants built my companies. I'm not exaggerating. My senior people that did the coding, the consulting, were all immigrants from Canada, Afghanistan, France.

Scott Galloway (59:58)

So I feel like everything that gave me this amazing life is under attack right now. And what I think about being a single parent, you know, I would like to see, I think one of the best things we could do for young people. I have a series of policy recommendations. Mandatory national service, but also universal childcare. Because if you look at the zone of suicide for a man where he's most vulnerable is the year after a divorce. And it's usually economic strain that leads to divorce. And so let's level up young people such that we can remove a certain level of economic anxiety from their lives. And one place that would be is childcare. Because in a capitalist society you need dual incomes. And going back to your point, it's not necessarily the man making less money, it's when, quite frankly, there's economic anxiety in the house. And oftentimes the man himself, the household and society holds the man more responsible. So I think there's a lot of potential solutions here. I'm veering from the story about my mom, single immigrant, single mother, immigrant, lived and died as secretary. And every day, every day and I try to do this with my boys in small and big ways. Convinced me that I was wonderful. I mean, I was an unremarkable student, tall, skinny, bad acne. And she made me feel like I was just this. She used to come home. She used to come home and say to me, oh, my God, you're so handsome. Look at you, you're so handsome. I was not Henry. I was not. And I'd roll my eyes. But, you know, having this, Having this, like, wonderful person tell you you're wonderful, it just anchors your. Oh, oh.

Henry Blodgett (61:35)

I mean, she's a hero. And I, I don't. You know, you skimmed over. You're getting into ucla. I think there's another message. Again, good advice for all people. You have this anecdote in there where you got dinged and you appealed it. And I don't know whether that was you or your mother, but somebody said, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Like, no, I'm like, take a chance on me. And they did. And another story you tell, it's great little anecdote is you were failing a bunch of classes, you needed to graduate. You went and saw every professor and you said, please change the F to a D so I can graduate and get out of your hair and go to work. That is something that I hear a lot of young people feel like they just have to take what was given. The decision from the authority figures and right there, two examples for you that I think sort of show us how you became this amazing entrepreneur who does not take realities as a given, but a startup starting point. You go out and mold it and try to make it better and so forth. You appealed those decisions and you say in the book that the UCLA one in particular was just huge. If you hadn't gone there, your life would have been totally different.

Scott Galloway (62:44)

I didn't get in. I was installing shelving. And the highlight of my day was I used to get ridiculously fucking high with my co workers and then take to the highways of the Inland Empire. And I came home one day, I was living with my mother and I just broke down and I was just like, everyone's always told me I was smart and I was funny. At that point, I thought I wanted to be a pediatrician. And I'm like, this is it. This is my life. It's going to be me and you living together. And I'm commuting an hour to install shelving. And there's nothing wrong with vocational work, but I'd always thought I was going to go to college and my mom said, is there anything we can do? And I found out about this appeal process and I wrote. And the truth has a nice language, a nice ring to it. I said, I want to be a doctor, and I'm installing shelving. Will you reconsider my application? And I remember the exact phone. Someone from the admissions office of UCLA called me and said, you're not qualified, but you're a native son of California and we're going to give you a shot. And it inspired. And then I rewarded them with a 2.27 GPA. I watched Planet of the Apes and made bongs out of household items for five years. And then what happened, Henry? The greatest public school in the nation, Berkeley, let me into business school. Imagine that. Because back then, America was about giving unremarkable kids a chance. And then. And you know what happened? I got my shit together and I started getting my act together. And this is a flex, but I'm going to make it.

Scott Galloway (64:08)

In the last seven years, I've given $20 million back to UCLA and Berkeley. America's about betting on unremarkable people. You want to plant as many acorns as possible because no institution or person can be the arbiter of greatness at the age of 18. You just don't know. So. So America's morphed from giving as many unremarkable people a shot as possible to trying to identify a superclass of freakishly remarkable people or rich kids to turn into billionaires. I just think we've lost the script.

Scott Galloway (64:42)

I couldn't get where I am now.

Scott Galloway (64:46)

A. I would. UCLA cost me $7,000 undergraduate and graduate. Seven years cost me $7,000 total tuition. Total tuition. And it was accessible. And all of those things that gave me a hand up are under attack or gone. And so I think. And I don't know what your story is, Henry, where you went to school, but I think men of our generation, it would be almost impossible for us not to look back and think America was so crazy unfairly good to us that we have a job and a debt to shove down the ladders behind us again. Because I just wouldn't have these opportunities. I wouldn't. There's no way I would have got into ucla. There was no way. I owe the regents of the University of California and California taxpayers a lot. And I owe America a lot. But, you know, America loved unremarkable kids of single mothers back then. And I'm not so sure it still loves them.

Henry Blodgett (65:47)

No, I hear you on all of that. And again, let me say, like, your story is incredibly inspiring. Your mom's story is incredibly inspiring. There is a boatload of super good advice in the book and I just want to thank you. I want everybody to read the book and I want to say thank you for letting me challenge you as the father of daughters and making sure that your vision for the modern male doesn't force them back into the kitchen or back into the nursery. Because I like the opportunities that they have and I want them to have great men in their lives. So that's why I've been challenging you. But it's just such a privilege to have you. And it's a great book and screw anybody who's critical of it. My God, let them put it out there then.

Scott Galloway (66:32)

Well, you know what, Henry? I appreciate the feedback and the pushback and quite frankly, I need to learn from it because I know, I hope that most of what I talk about in the book is right, but I know some of it is wrong. And I am struggling with and open to how do I create an aspirational vision for masculinity that serves as a code for young men while in no way.

Scott Galloway (66:55)

Suggesting that women need to regress, that we don't celebrate their opportunities and also recognizing the world has changed and we need an updated vision of masculinity? And you know what I still haven't figured it out is the bottom line.

Henry Blodgett (67:08)

We're getting there in part because you're putting it out there. Thank you, Scott. Great to see you.

Scott Galloway (67:12)

Thank you, Henry.

Henry Blodgett (67:15)

Solutions is produced by Megan Kune. Jim Mackle is our video editor. Our theme music is by Trackademics. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Thanks for listening to Solutions from the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm your host, Henry Blodgett.

Scott Galloway (67:33)

We'll see you soon.

Henry Blodgett (67:38)

Support for Solutions comes from Zoom. Your work tool shouldn't slow you down. Zoom brings meetings, chat docs, and your AI companion together on one platform to help you work better. Visit zoom.compodcast to learn more and Zoom ahead.

Henry Blodgett (68:01)

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Scott Galloway (68:14)

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Henry Blodgett (68:15)

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Scott Galloway (68:21)

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Henry Blodgett (68:22)

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Henry Blodgett (68:28)

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