Episode 4 - The Bikers and The Van

Summary

Summary of "Somebody Knows Something" Podcast Episode 4 - "The Bikers and The Van"

Introduction

In Episode 4 of "Somebody Knows Something: The Elgin Police Cold Case Podcast," Detectives Andrew Howden and Matt Vartanian delve deeper into the mysterious disappearance of 23-year-old Karen Schepers, who vanished on the night of April 16, 1983, after a night out with co-workers at PM Bentley's in Carpentersville, Illinois. This episode explores new theories involving motorcycle gangs and examines witness statements that could shed light on Karen's fate.

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Visiting PM Bentley's

[02:25] The detectives begin by revisiting PM Bentley's, the nightclub and bar where Karen was last seen. Located in the Meadowdale Shopping Center, the establishment was known for hosting live music a few nights a week.

[02:55] Detective Howden: "PM Bentley's was a nightclub and bar that hosted live music a couple days a week... We thought the best way to get an idea of how the place looked and what it was like was to get with the former owner, Frank."

[04:52] They meet with Frank, the former owner, who provides a comprehensive tour of the now-vacant building. Frank reminisces about the bar's layout, clientele, and operations during the early 1980s.

Key Details from Frank:

• Layout: A large space with a stage, a rectangular bar with about 30 seats, and bathrooms located immediately to the entrance.
• Clientele: Predominantly young and sometimes rowdy, especially on weekends.
• Operations: Open daily from 4 PM to 2 AM (3 AM on Saturdays) with live entertainment six nights a week. The bar lacked bouncers but had ID checkers at the door who would escort single girls to their cars for safety.

[06:03] Frank: "Into the area where you dance and sit at the stage. Or you could go right into the bar."

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The Carnival Connection

[10:58] A significant revelation comes when the detectives learn from a co-worker, referred to as "Daisy," that there was a carnival adjacent to PM Bentley's on the night Karen disappeared. This detail was previously unrecorded in official reports.

[11:14] Detective Matt Vartanian: "When I got to the bar, I was kind of surprised because the parking lot was very crowded... This carnival was never mentioned in the original reports..."

[14:07] Through extensive research, including reviewing microfilm and digital archives, the detectives confirm the existence of the Greater American Carnival sponsored by the Meadowdale Businessmen's Association, which took place from April 14th to April 24th, 1983.

[14:50] Detective Howden: "So we're curious about people coming and going, maybe where workers would have stayed if they were living on site for the weekend..."

The presence of the carnival introduces new avenues of investigation, suggesting the possibility that carnival-goers or workers might have witnessed events related to Karen's disappearance.

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Witness Statements

David's Testimony

[16:16] David, a witness who reported seeing Karen at PM Bentley's, provided a detailed statement describing an interaction involving Karen and a large man wearing a motorcycle jacket.

[17:10] Detective Matt Vartanian: "Here is David's actual written police statement from December of 1983."

David's Statement Highlights:

• Initial Encounter: Saw Karen at the bar around 9:30 PM but was interrupted by a "husky guy" before he could buy her a drink.
• Later Observation: Around 1:05 AM, witnessed an argument involving a woman he believed to be Karen and a large man near his brother's van. Described the man's appearance and the cars involved.

[18:43] Detective Matt Vartanian: "David had reported to the police that he arrived at PM Bentley's around roughly 8:30 or 9:00 PM and that Karen had caught his eye roughly around 9:30 PM."

Jessica's Account

[33:19] Jessica, another witness, recounts a disturbing encounter a week after Karen's disappearance, involving her and her sister interacting with two men at PM Bentley's.

[34:26] David: "That weirdo your sister was talking about? Well, you're looking at him."

Jessica's Key Points:

• Met two men at the bar who were discussing Karen's disappearance.
• Left the bar around 2:45 AM with one man, planning to go for coffee.
• Encountered a threatening individual who allegedly threatened to rape her.

[35:46] Detective Howden: "We want to make sure any of our listeners contact us if they remember anything similar."

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Analysis of Witness Reliability

Inconsistencies in David's Statements

[19:26] The detectives note discrepancies between David's initial interview on April 21st and his written statement in December 1983.

Initial Interview (April 21):

• Described the man as a white male, 5'8" to 5'9", with a bushy beard and shoulder-length hair, appearing to be in his late 20s or early 30s.
• Time of encounter: Approximately 11:30 PM.

Written Statement (December):

• Description changed to a taller man (6'2" to 6'4"), weighing 240-250 pounds, with curly hair to his shoulders and a full beard.
• Time of encounter: Approximately 9:30 PM to 9:45 PM.

[20:16] Detective Howden: "He kind of makes the guy sound bigger and more menacing as time passes."

Polygraph Results

[27:30] David underwent a polygraph test with inconclusive results due to "erratic and unexplained emotional disturbances."

[28:05] Detective Matt Vartanian: "He is suffering from some emotional defect which precludes the examiner from submitting a definite report at this time."

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Biker Involvement Theory

[22:11] The detectives explore the possibility that motorcycle gangs frequenting PM Bentley's could be connected to Karen's disappearance.

[22:16] Frank: "We had motorcycle people come in here, but we wouldn't allow them to bring their colors."

[23:22] Detective Matt Vartanian: "We had to put a policy in place that, hey, we don't want these guys wearing colors in the bar because we don't want to have problems."

[24:46] The presence of bikers is corroborated by multiple witnesses and former law enforcement sources, adding weight to the theory that a biker could have been involved in Karen's disappearance. However, the detectives acknowledge the complexities involved, such as the disappearance of Karen's car and the need for a greater understanding of biker activities that night.

[31:20] Detective Matt Vartanian: "We have to keep moving forward and looking at other things, too."

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Next Steps and Ongoing Investigation

[36:45] The detectives emphasize the importance of interviewing former employees who were present during Karen's disappearance. They highlight the difficulty in tracking down individuals who were never interviewed in 1983, including a female employee who was reportedly followed home by a man—a key witness who could provide critical information.

[36:45] Detective Howden: "We know a girl... was serving their table, and we've never been able to talk to her."

Teaser for Next Episode

[36:45] Detective Matt Vartanian: "We identified and interviewed one more new witness, a woman who worked at PM Bentley's but quit shortly before Karen disappeared. She provided a shocking revelation that could potentially take this investigation in a totally new direction."

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Conclusion

Detectives Howden and Vartanian wrap up the episode by reiterating the need for public assistance. They encourage anyone with information related to Karen Schepers' case or the events at PM Bentley's during that night to come forward, emphasizing that no detail is too small and that all tips are valuable in seeking justice and closure.

[37:59] Chief Anna Lally: "If you or anyone you know has information about this case or any other cold case in Elgin, please contact the Elgin Police Department cold case [e-mail]..."

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Call to Action

The Elgin Police Department Cold Case Unit continues to seek assistance from the community. Listeners with pertinent information are urged to contact the department via email at [e-mail] or by phone at 1-847-289-COLD. Comprehensive details of all cold cases can be found on the Elgin Police Department's Transparency Hub.

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This episode sheds light on previously unexplored aspects of Karen Schepers' disappearance, introducing new witnesses and potential links to motorcycle gangs. As the investigation progresses, the detectives emphasize the importance of community involvement in solving cold cases that have long remained shrouded in mystery.

Transcript

[Detective Andrew Howden]

This podcast is based on information sourced primarily from police and media reports, but certain names and other identifying details may have been changed or altered for privacy and security reasons. While the events and cases discussed are based on real investigations, some aspects may be simplified for time and for narrative purposes. Voice actors have been used to read from statements or documents. All information presented is intended solely to inform and raise awareness. Hosts may discuss theories regarding the cases examined in this podcast, but such discussions are not intended to and should not be considered by the listener to be legal. Conclusions all persons discussed are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Listener discretion is advised.

[Chief Anna Lally]

This is Chief Anna Lally. Welcome to Somebody Knows Something, a podcast from the Elgin Police Department's Cold Case Unit. In this podcast, we will shed new light on cold cases in the city of Elgin by sharing untold details and by encouraging anyone with information to come forward. You will come along with real cold case detectives as they investigate active cold cases in real time and seek justice for the victims and closure for their families. We believe that the Elgin Police Department and our community can work together to bring closure to cold cases because we know that in these cases, somebody knows something.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Hello and welcome to Somebody Knows Something, the Elgin Police Department Cold Case Podcast. My name is Detective Andrew Howden.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

And I'm Detective Matt Vartanian.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

This season, we've been taking you along as we investigate the case of Karen Sheepers who disappeared on April 16, 1983. In our last episode, we reviewed the original theory that some in law enforcement had at the time, which was that Karen simply left voluntarily. We also consider the theory that Karen could have taken her own life. Karen's family, friends and co workers all dismissed these options. And Matt, I think we both agree that those scenarios are kind of unlikely.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, we do.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

In this episode, we move on to theory number two. Something happened at PM Bentley's.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

That's right. And this investigation is going to be covered over two episodes. For this episode, we will visit the site where Karen was last seen and discuss the different theories about what could have happened at PM Bentley's. Are we returning to the scene of a crime? Will this location unlock the key to finding out what happened to Karen? So let's see what we can find out about the last place we can confirm Karen was on April 16th of 1983.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Okay, so PM Bentley's was a nightclub and bar that hosted live music a couple days a week. It was located in a strip of the Meadowdale Shopping center in Carpentersville, Illinois on Route 25, just a little north of Route 68. We kind of thought the best way to get an idea of how the place looked and what it was like was to get with the former owner, Frank. And he was gracious enough to take us up there and help us kind of take a tour of the area. All right, so we're going to meet with Frank, the owner of PM Bentley's, back in 83. We're here in the parking lot. It's kind of a unique layout. It looks like it used to be a mall, from what our understanding is you have. We initially thought it was maybe closer to where this furniture store is. There's a furniture store kind of on the corner, but Frank kind of pointed us out. There's a dentist office that you go inside the mall to get into the business.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

So it's almost like a mall within a mall, you know, like storefronts inside.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

The parking lot kind of wraps around where we're parked here in the first row, right in front of the entrance to the door. Would have been right around the area where Karen parked. They said she parked in maybe the third row. So, you know, where we're sitting. We would have seen where her car was from here. Basically. Yeah. There's a huge overhang. So if you're hanging out outside, you know, that night and smoking or whatever, it's. It's gonna be covered. That's pretty much the business. It's not here anymore. It's kind of a. A vacant building.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

But a dentist office is now in the location of where PM Bentley's would be located or would have been located. There's a cell phone store, a couple other. You know, there's a pawn shop, a couple other locations of salon that's tucked inside, too.

[Frank]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

It looks like the only thing that was here in 83 was probably the Ace Hardware. Everything else has kind of changed over the time, so.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

But it seems like the layout is the same.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Layout looks like the same from the aerial photos we've had and from other conversations we've had with Frank on the phone. So the building is basically identical. It's just different tenants, but. All right, let's head in and talk to Frank.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Sounds good. We headed inside the building and met with Frank and his son. We spoke at length with him, and he walked us around the building, showing us where the bar was located and describing it to us. I guess. Could you kind of just take us through, like, your history with PM Bentley's? Like, how did you come into owning it? Like, how did you know about it?

[Frank]

I had a restaurant in East Dundee family. And we sold the family. And about a year later.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Frank]

This place became available.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay.

[Frank]

And going to the shopping center, Craig Bisinger, at that time, asked to be interested.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay.

[Frank]

Had a partner as well, and he told me how we would be.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay.

[Frank]

And that's how we.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

What. What year did you open? Do you remember?

[Frank]

I think it was 1981 or 82.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Okay. And it was here when we walked in. It's like a dentist office now, it looks like. But you would come in this side door, and then how. How far did it go back?

[Frank]

It went back pretty far.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

When you walked in, can you just describe, like, what it would have looked like when you walked in? So you walk in the front door.

[Frank]

And then walk in this door. You can eat her. Those straight ahead.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay.

[Frank]

Into the area where you dance and sit at the stage. Or you could go right into the bar.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay.

[Frank]

And into the bar, there's a rectangle bar.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay. Okay.

[Frank]

About 30 seats.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Where were the bathrooms at when you walked into the bar? How would you get to the bathroom?

[Frank]

Right there. Right there on your left.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Right there.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Okay. So you'd walk in the door and read up. Yeah. As soon as you came in, the bathrooms. Right there.

[Frank]

More women's washroom and then the men's washroom.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Was there a pay phone in the business?

[Frank]

No, it was not a pig phone. Yes, it was. That was on this wall right up.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

On the wall right here. So right outside the bathroom, these walls weren't here.

[Frank]

See, this is all open.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yeah. All right, so you would walk in. Straight ahead would be, like, the stage, and, like, the rest would be a separate bar.

[Frank]

And if I was shepherd.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Right.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

So if you were sitting watching the band and you went to get a drink at the bar, could you see the bar from your seats, or was it in a separate room? Room.

[Frank]

No, you could see the bar. Most of the season, you could see the bar from.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Okay.

[Frank]

Most of the seats this side of the room, you couldn't see it.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Okay.

[Frank]

But if you're in the center and in the other wall, you had a good shot at the bar.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

If we're sitting over here and we're watching the band, would we have waitresses that would come to our table and, like, serve us, or would you go to the bar?

[Frank]

Either way. Either way. We had girls running drinks back and forth.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Okay.

[Frank]

And we also take. It also comes sit at the bar or get their own drink. Yeah, either way.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

So this area out here was like this back then. Right. So you would walk out and you'd still Be inside the bar. So if you were going to, like, stand out here and talk, you could do that. If you're going to smoke, could you smoke in the bar in those days? So you could smoke in the bar. You could smoke out here. Like, there'd really be no reason to stand out in the elements in the parking lot if it's cold, nobody was outside. You know, you could still stand out here and, like, shoot the. And have a cigarette and, you know, whatever.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

All right. So, Matt, this place was pretty big. I mean, I think it was bigger than what I kind of anticipated in my mind thinking about it. I'd driven past the site and I just didn't realize how big it was going to be inside. There were, at least how he described it, quite a few tables, a stage, a bar. The bathrooms were up front and there's a payphone right there, which is basically just how Eloise had described it to us in a previous episode.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, the location and the layout, you know, was intriguing. It's not really anything that I thought it would be. I mean, when you walk out of the bar, there's this big covered area before you exit the parking lot. And the vestibule, I guess you would call it, is well lit and so is the parking lot. I almost kind of describe it as like a mall within, you know, within a mall. So there's a lot of area inside where people could hang out, you know, and stay out of the elements. And Frank even told us that the guy who checked IDs at the door would often walk girls, you know, who were in the bar alone, out to their car just to make sure that they were safe.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yeah. Speaking of safety, another thing we kind of want to talk about is the patrons the bar had back then, back in 1983. So when we. When we asked Frank, his reaction kind of told us a lot.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

What was the. What type of clientele did you guys typically get for the bar?

[Frank]

You guys know that I. I wasn't.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Here from everywhere else. Okay.

[Frank]

We had. We had a pretty young crowd.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Okay.

[Frank]

Young clientele.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

It was pretty common to have live bands play.

[Frank]

We had. Yes, we had live bands.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Okay.

[Frank]

Correct.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Were you guys open every day during the week or was it three days?

[Frank]

Every day a week. And we had entertainment six nights a week.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay, and what time did you guys open? Like, on a. On an average?

[Frank]

4 o'clock every day?

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

4Pm and then what time was closing time?

[Frank]

2 o'clock, 2 o'clock, 3 on Saturday.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

So can you kind of, you know, you were Kind of chuckling when we were asking you, like, about the clientele, you know, that were coming. Can you. If you don't mind just kind of elaborating just because I don't. I don't really know. I know Andrew doesn't either. Like, when you. When that kind of makes you laugh. Was there, like, just a specific type of crowd that would come in all the time or, like, rowdiness or, like, pretty.

[Frank]

A little rowdy?

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay. Okay.

[Frank]

Yeah.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Did you guys get, like, lots of fights or, like, any issues or any problems?

[Frank]

Usually on the weekend.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay.

[Frank]

Yeah. Not every weekend, but.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay. Was it something where you guys were, like, you kind of, like, policed your own inside, or did you have to call the police?

[Frank]

We called the police most of the time.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay.

[Frank]

Okay. Most. Sometimes we'd handle it.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Frank]

But most of the time we'd call the police.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay, got it.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

You didn't have. It's not like a nightclub, so you didn't have, like, bouncers.

[Frank]

No, we had people at the door checking IDs.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Just checking IDs.

[Frank]

That's about it.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Frank]

The doorman used to walk single girls to their car if they wanted. You know, they escort them out to the parking lot.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Okay. So Frank's description really echoed what a lot of the former employees and former patrons kind of told us about the place. It sounds like it could get a little bit rough on the weekends. There'd be these live bands. Maybe you'd get people in. You might have some issues, you know, in the parking lot or in the bar here and there. According to Frank, they end up closing the bar sometime in 1985 or 1986 because the city wouldn't renew the lease.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

You know, there was something that Eloise told us about what had happened which was not in the original case file. When we had talked to her recently, she told us about an event in the adjacent parking lot that night that Karen disappeared. And we thought that it might or could be relevant to this investigation.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

That's right.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

When I got to the bar, I.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Was kind of surprised because the parking lot was very crowded. Okay.

[David]

And part of it was there was.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

A carnival going on.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

And the carnival was very noisy.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

And then.

[David]

So people were parking there to go.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

To the carnival and then, of course.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Go to the bar and whatever else, you know, stores or whatever that were there. This carnival was never mentioned in the original reports, the newspaper articles or statements that we have in the original case file. But it made us at least consider that this carnival could be related or that someone from the carnival might have witnessed something or even had done something to Karen. When we interviewed Frank, this information about the carnival was pretty new. And we decided to ask him about it.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Is the parking lot pretty much the same how it was then? Yeah, in structure. Okay. We were told by somebody that there was maybe a carnival the weekend that this girl went missing. Do you remember any carnivals being.

[Frank]

Every year the carnival came town.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Do you remember any in the spring? I know there was, like a fall carnival for Seville that we could find at Dundee, but do you remember any spring carnival?

[Frank]

Spring carnival. And it came to Carpentersville every year. And every year it came to Carpentersville, the crime rate went up.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Okay. Do you remember, like, as we're standing in the bar looking out the door, like, where the carnival would be in relation to where we were at? If you remember, it was on the earth.

[Frank]

You see his. This, the small used to go all the way back where the post office is at. Used all the way? Yeah. Okay, so the carnival was in that area back there. All the way back.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Okay, so to the north end of the right, the parking lots here.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Did you get a lot of, like, patrons from the carnival that would come to PM Bentley's and, like, drink and hang out and everything? Did they ever cause, like, problems for you or anything like that?

[Frank]

No.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Do you remember the company or, like, who on the carnival?

[Frank]

I remember that.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Well, with this new information from both Frank and Eloise, we got to take a nice fun dive back into the world of newspaper archives. So we went through microfilm, Microfish Digital Archives, hard copy newspapers. You know, a lot of the listeners might have never even heard of things like microfilm. Yeah, the clarity is really tough. It's, you know, you're going through these reels on a machine. It's really time consuming. I think we both wanted to make sure that. We thanked the Gail Borden Public Library and the Daily Herald. The library staff was really helpful. They got us access to these different reels. They've gotten us access to old yearbooks, other documents. And the Daily Herald pointed us to a great online archive that we've used to track down a lot of old newspaper articles from the 80s. A lot of those hard copies just don't exist anymore. So it was really great to get their help on that. After, I don't know, a dozen hours going through all these newspapers, we finally found an article in the 1983. April 4, 1983, to be exact. Cardinal Free Press, which confirmed that there was a carnival in the Meadowdale Shopping.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Center that spring yeah, the carnival was called the Greater American Carnival and it was sponsored by the Meadowdale Businessmen's Association. The Carnival ran from April 14th through April 24th, right? Yep. And that was in the Meadowdale lot. Now that we can confirm that Eloise was correct and there was in fact a carnival that weekend. We wanted to ask any listeners who have information about that spring carnival to please contact us if you have, you know, any information, if you worked it or if you attended it or helped plan it and could shed, you know, some light on things like where the workers might have stayed, you know, in relation to PM Bentley's or any other information that might be relevant, please please call us or contact us.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yeah, and like Frank said, it would have been just north of where she was located. So the parking lot, you know, was attached to where she would have parked her car. So we're curious about people coming and going, maybe where workers would have stayed if they were living on site for the weekend, things like that.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. So in our first few episodes, we had discussed the hours leading up to Karen's disappearance and we discussed that Karen made a phone call from inside the bar, then participated in a hula hoop contest. You know, Andrew, one co worker thought that Karen might have actually won that contest.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yeah.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Anyway, the thing is, we still don't know what happened after that. After re examining this case, you know, we learned that one co worker thinks she might have. She might have recalled something new.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yeah, that's right. We're gonna talk about a co worker and we're gonna change her name for this podcast and call her Daisy. She recalled walking out of the bar sometime around 1:30am and she told us recently that she believed Karen might have walked out with her and some other people. She can't be sure, but she thought that she remembered some men hanging outside the entrance, maybe leaning on the wall, smoking cigarettes, talking, and that Karen may have heard someone or had someone call out to her and turned back towards the bar. You know, she said it's been 40 years, so she can't say for certain, but she thought that Karen did walk out with them and then went to her own car. So that's something that, you know, we thought was something new. That was something we need to look at.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. You know, this information is intriguing because on, I believe it was April 21st of 1983, one witness claimed to have information about Karen both before and after the hula hoop contest, which does sound familiar. And that man's name was David. The week Karen went missing, David had reported to the police that he arrived at PM Bentley's around roughly 8:30 or 9:00pm on April 15th and that Karen had caught his eye roughly around 9:30pm Unfortunately, David had died several years ago, so we can't interview him or speak with him now.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

That's true, but what we do have is a written statement that he provided back in 1983 and we've decided that we're going to release that statement for the first time here in this podcast. Here is David's actual written police statement from December of 1983.

[David]

On April 15, 1983, I went to p.m. bentley's Bar in Carpentersville around 8:30 or 9:00pm While at the bar I saw Karen Sheepers across from me. I raised a glass towards her in gesture to buy her a drink. She smiled and gave a nod as if she said yes. Before I could buy her a drink a husky guy came up to her so I backed away. The time was around 9:30pm I left the bar around 12:50am to get some fresh air. Before I left there were people going by me to their cars, so I glanced up for only a moment. Then around 1:05am I was standing by my brother's van and I heard two people arguing and swearing at each other. I could hear the girl calling him a bastard a few times. Then the guy kept calling her an asshole or some name. Other people were around listening to it as well but kind of joking about it. After a few minutes they seemed to disappear or get into a car. When I got in the van, I drove to the area where the two people were. I saw a shadow of a guy and a girl in a light colored car like a Ford or Buick. There was a dark red car next to them with blue speckles. The other car was a dark colored car. After going by them I went home. I did see a couple of Harley choppers and a couple of other bikes parked in the front of PM Bentley's. The guy I saw with Karen was about 62 to 6 4, about 240 to 250 pounds. He had curly hair to about his shoulders and he was wearing a black leather or suede motorcycle jacket and he had a full beard.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

So in conjunction with that statement, David had told police that he believed the woman he saw that was involved in that argument in the parking lot was indeed Karen.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

And beyond just the written statement that he gave in December, he gave two police interviews where he actually talked with the police. One of Those was on April 21, which was just a couple days after Karen disappeared. And one was this December interview about seven months later. He described the mail in his two interviews in two different ways. And this is something I think that's kind of important to highlight. Yeah, I know in my experience, and I'm sure in yours, witnesses will often change some details when time passes. So for David, these interviews are about eight months apart. Seven, eight months apart. It doesn't shock me that some of the details have changed, but there are some stark differences that I think we both wanted to talk about.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. So on April 21, David described the man that he saw with a woman he believed to be Karen in the following way. He described the individual to be a white male, about 58 to 5 9, with a bushy beard, big arms, shoulder length hair, and in his late 20s or maybe early 30s. He also estimated that he saw Karen with the biker at the bar around 11:30 and not 9:30pm yeah, that kind.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Of changed a little bit. And then in December he provided a written statement. And in that statement he talks about the guy being a white male who's about 62 to 6 4, about 240 to 250 pounds, with curly hair that hung down to his shoulders and a full beard. This time he estimated that the time was around 9:30 or 9:45. And like you said on the 21st, he thought it was maybe 11:30. So that kind of changed.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, well, the time frame of 9:30 or 9:45pm versus 11:30pm isn't really that important. We do know that Karen was inside the bar until at least 12:30am on the night of the 16th. So it is entirely possible that David saw her and raised his glass to her at any time between 9pm and 12:30am that's right.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

What's more important is this guy that reportedly went up to talk to Karen. And I would note that David does describe the hair and the beard, both pretty much the same in the two statements, even though some of those other descriptors change over time. He kind of makes the guy sound bigger and more menacing as time passes, which could be, you know, a number of things. I don't know, maybe he's just thinking about it now in December and, you know, building it up in his mind, who knows? But 59 to 64 is kind of a big difference, right?

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, it sure is. He described the guy was wearing a leather or suede type motorcycle club jacket in both of his interviews too. But there's no mention of any patches or rockers or any specific markings for the jacket or anything like that. David had used this term motorcycle jack, in one of his interviews. So he clearly was linking the guy as some kind of, you know, outwardly appearing type, you know, biker. I had spent, you know, a number of years in the Elgin Gang Unit. I know that we still have some motorcycle gangs that operate in the area. In the 1980s, we'd been told by former investigators there were certainly active motorcycle gangs and groups in both Carpentersville and Elgin. Unfortunately, David didn't have any information about patches or colors or rockers that could help us narrow down the guy he allegedly had seen. After talking to Frank, we think we know why David might not have been able to provide more details about this person he claimed was talking to Karen. Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

What about, like, motorcycles? Like, was there a group of guys would come here that were, like, motorcycle type?

[Frank]

We had. We had motorcycle people come in here, but we wouldn't allow them to bring their colors.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Okay.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

So, like, there'd be, like, a. Like a motorcycle gang that would come in. They wouldn't have any of their. Like, any of their cuts or anything like that.

[Frank]

Right.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay.

[Frank]

And we had a couple. Couple. We had one guy that owned a motorcycle shop.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Frank]

In McHenry or somewhere.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Frank]

And he was a pretty big company.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Frank]

And he knew all the motorcycles and all the bikers.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay.

[Frank]

And he was on our side.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Frank]

So he kept a lot of them.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay.

[Frank]

Quiet.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Do you remember, were they, like, outlaws or, like, any specific gangs? I mean, I know you didn't let the colors or the cuts come in or anything like that, so it makes.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Sense you wouldn't want to wear it. At least wearing it in the bar.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. Keep the problem comes out. Yeah. So the bar had tried to curb issues with motorcycle gangs, you know, and their activity within the bar.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yeah. And I mean, it makes sense. It's definitely kind of clarifies to us that there were certainly motorcycle gangs and motorcycle guys that would hang around this area. You know, you would make sense to put a policy in place that, hey, we don't want these guys wearing colors in the bar because we don't want to have problems.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. And for anybody that's listening, if anyone recalls anything similar to this argument at PM Bentley's that would, you know, would or could clear up this altercation that David said he witnessed, please call us. Maybe it has nothing to do with Karen or maybe it has everything to do with her. We just don't know. And if you have that information, we'd like to find out or if somebody.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Remembers talking to Karen, buying her A drink or any other contact they might have had with her, please contact us. We're still working to speak with as many people who were present at the bar that night as possible.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, so again, this is a huge part of this podcast and why we were giving out this type of information. You know, we are trying to really spark a memory for people so that new witnesses can come forward. You know, one thing that we both found important in David's statements is that David later said that when he left and he estimated the time around 12:50am on the night of the 16th, or I should say the morning he left alone and saw several men and bikes outside of the bar in the far west lot and some Harley Davidsons parked directly in front of the bar. That coworker, Daisy, she also described people hanging around as she left the bar with several people, including potentially Karen. And the time frame is pretty close to David's. I mean, we were talking about people estimating a time they left the bar and all saying it was kind of around 1:00am yeah, and David reported that.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

About 1:05am and again, we're estimating, I mean, people are drinking at a bar, but around 1:05am he saw a woman who he thought was Karen talking to the same guy from the bar. Outside the bar, he heard someone call somebody a bastard. And while the group of bikers around him started laughing, you know, David kind of left and saw these people talking.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

In one of his interviews, David also described that he saw the woman being placed into a car, which he described as a light colored medium sized vehicle parked next to a newer dark in color compact sedan with Wisconsin plates. He also said that he saw a man and a woman in a light colored Ford or a Buick parked next to a kind of distinctive car that was dark red with blue metallic speckles on it. And that would be if we went back to the written statement, right?

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yep, his written statement.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

So his written statement includes some of that detail, but it does doesn't include some of the things he later said in his verbal interviews. You know, we've read all of the interviews and police reports and overall they include that level of detail.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yeah. Again, Matt, it kind of highlights the difference that we see in these older cases. And it, you know, honestly, it can be a little bit frustrating. Yeah, the witnesses in these old cases would often provide some sort of written statement like we provided with David. Then they would give these long in depth interviews to the police where the police would just either take notes or just write a report about what the person Said oftentimes those statements that the detectives wrote down had way more detail than the written statement did.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

And it's clear that the written statements were not as in depth as the interview was. But we don't have any audio, we don't have any video. You know, today we would sit down.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

And body one cameras, Right? Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

We would record everybody.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

And we would just have the full transcript, but we just don't have that in this type of case.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. Another thing that was common back then was a polygraph, or also known as a lie detector test. David did take a polygraph as part of this investigation. Now, these things aren't admissible in court, but, you know, polygraphs and an individual's reaction to being asked to take one can be useful for investigators. For instance, if a person is completely reluctant to take one. I think police at that time especially, you know, honed in a little more than the knot on a person due to their lack or level of cooperation. But if it seems like if someone had passed a polygraph, maybe they moved on, you know, which could also be problematic. Maybe they missed something.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yeah. I mean, I think that sometimes it looks like you would look at a suspect, they'd pass a polygraph or partially pass a polygraph, and police would just kind of say, okay, we're going to move. Move forward. That obviously, like you said, can be problematic.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Right.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

We've heard from a number of law enforcement sources that worked in the 80s and used polygraphs, and I think we both kind of would agree. What they kind of tell you is, you know, you want a really accomplished practice examiner. And they said that the examiner is almost as important as the test itself because they can really drive those results, which is probably why some of these things aren't admissible in court.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. Like, you know, I had said David did take one in December of 1983. And here's the actual polygraph questions and the answers from the original case file that we had found.

[David]

On April 16, 1983, did you talk to Karen Sheepers in the parking lot of PM Bentley's? No. Did you harm Karen in any way? No. Do you know what happened to Karen? No. On April 16, 1983, did you see Karen arguing with an unknown white male? No.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

You know, Matt, I'm not sure why he said he did not see Karen arguing in the parking lot when his statement says that that's what he saw.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Maybe the question was too broad, or he wasn't sure it was actually Karen who he saw. But the examiner's findings for all the questions were as follows.

[David]

It is the opinion of the examiner, based on the subject's polygraph records, that he is suffering from some emotional defect which precludes the examiner from. From submitting a definite report at this time.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Okay. So the examiner noted in the record that it contained, quote, erratic and unexplained emotional disturbances. I think it's basically just a fancy way to say David's test was just. It was inconclusive.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, I'd love to know more about that. Right. Well, at least we know that there were certainly bikers who were around that night. And to be honest, David inserting himself into this investigation might be very important, too. Yeah, maybe he did see Karen or talked to her, or maybe he actually did try to buy her a drink.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yeah, it's obviously hard to know at this point. I mean, he claims that he made eye contact with her and wanted to buy her a drink. One thing we do know from his interviews and for our interviews with different co workers is that David claimed that Karen went off with this burly kind of biker guy to a booth and sat and drank with this guy. Now, all the co workers we've talked to said they were very, very confident that Karen was with them the entire night. Their group didn't mingle with other people. They had someone waiting on their tables. They could have gone up to the bar, but the way Frank described the bar, it would have been kind of a hike from where they were sitting to go all the way around to the bar to do that.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

And they had a. A girl who was waiting their table. So their account, you know, the woman might just not be Karen. That might be the reality.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. Well, we do have other witnesses who recall seeing motorcycles parked in the lot and things like that. We had talked to some local law enforcement from around that time period, and they described the bar as kind of a blue collar and a working class bar. There were bikers in the area at that time, and it would not have been uncommon for motorcycles to be at that bar, too. Some of Karen's co workers echoed that description when we had talked to them. So it's hard to rule out the fact that David could have made contact with Karen or also some biker, whether it was inside or outside the bar.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yeah, and those same law enforcement people we talked to from that time, they said the bar had a bit of a reputation with bikers. And that goes along with David's statement. It also goes along with some things that, you know, Frank was telling us about having bikers there making sure. They didn't wear their colors in the bar, stuff like that. But I think for a biker to have taken Karen and then her car to disappear, there's just a lot of moving parts to that that maybe make it a little bit less likely.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yes. And again, Karen's car is a huge part of this case. Either someone would have had to have hidden it or forced their way into a car, you know, be allowed into the car by Karen. Or if she left with some biker in some other car or on a bike, someone would have had to have come back to the bar and then taken care of the car.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yeah. And we did talk to Frank about towing, and they said they didn't really have a situation where, like today you would have a posted sign that says, you know, abc Towing, we'll tow this car to this location if it stays here overnight.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Right.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

He basically said that if something like that were to happen, they would just call the owners of the bar and they would say, hey, there's a car parked in the lot. Like, do you know whose car it is? Kind of deal.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

So we don't have any record of her car being towed out of there.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Right.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

And like we talked about before, it was a manual transmission. So someone would have to be able to drive that. I mean, that's pretty common back in 83, but it's still just something to remember.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Exactly. Then you would have had to have disposed of that car somewhere. And it has never been found for over 41 years.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yeah, I mean, it is possible, I suppose. We can't say one way or the other. And we can't really determine if this biker that David says he saw actually talked to Karen or if it was some other person. It's certainly possible that something happened at the bar and that this biker or something else at the bar could have been what caused Karen to disappear. So we have to keep that option kind of on the table now. But, you know, we got to kind of keep moving forward and looking at other things, too.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

That's right. And there was another person that came up regarding PM Bentley's a few days after Karen's disappearance that we also need to talk about. A woman that we're going to call. Jessica, told police shortly after Karen's disappearance that she had information that might be related to Karen's case. Jessica stated that she was at PM Bentley's on April 24, which was the Saturday after Karen had been reported missing.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yes. It's exactly one week later.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. The following weekend.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yep.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

I mean, obviously, Karen's disappearance was a kind of a big thing in that area at that time, especially at the bar. Anyways, Jessica said that she was at the bar with her sister and that they met these two men inside the bar. The group was understandably talking about Karen's disappearance and everything associated with it. And Jessica's sister said that, quote, unquote, some weirdo probably abducted her.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Jessica then said that she and her sister left the bar around 2:45am to go to another local place for coffee with these two guys that they just met. I would note that the bar closed at 2, so I don't know if that discrepancy makes sense or not, but just to throw it in there, Jessica claimed that her sister rode with one of the men, and Jessica was going to drive the car that they drove to go meet these guys for coffee, and that this friend of the guy walked out with her and he walked over by this beige van that he was driving. That's when things got a little bit weird, at least according to Jessica. Jessica claimed that she and this guy were standing in the parking lot for like 10 or 15 minutes, just kind of talking. And the guy said this, you know.

[David]

That weirdo your sister was talking about? Well, you're looking at him.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

The man also reportedly had told Jessica that he was going to rape her. Jessica did not know if this guy was involved in Kieran's disappearance, but she had contacted the local authorities to tell them about him anyways. You know, I think this is a good reminder that even if this guy was not involved, somebody said something. In any of these cases, and even in cases that we investigate, you know, in real time today, we want people to know that the police are never going to judge you for bringing us information. We would rather people contact us and tell us information than think, oh, I don't want to bother them. It's probably nothing. No detail is too small. No tip, you know, tip is too small. We want to make sure that we investigate anything that comes through.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yeah. Any information that people give us, we're going to run it down. If it turns out to be nothing, I mean, that's fine. That's what we're here for. That's our job.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Jessica was able to provide a full name, you know, for the man that she had met that night. And police did talk to him. He had lived in the area, and police determined that he had no criminal history. From what we had read, he claimed that while he did have a conversation with Jessica, she was completely fabricating and making up any of the things that she had claimed he had said. You know, we should also note here, Andrew, that, you know, this guy did not match really in any way the description of the biker that David had described in his interviews.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yeah, that's. That's true. So our point with telling these different statements and these different stories is that we want to make sure any of our listeners contact us if they remember anything similar. If you have a story similar to Jessica's story, please contact us. And if you have any issues that you had or remember any issues at the bar with bikers or remember some sort of argument this night when Karen went missing, please contact us. You can do it anonymously. You can give us your information, whatever you prefer. But like Matt said before, what you know is more important than who you are to us.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, you know, we've talked a lot about the bar, David, and this other weird interaction in the parking lot with the van. We need to really talk about the employees, too, here. We know one employee recalled seeing Karen in the bathroom and talking to her about the TV show Dallas at that time. And other employers remembered seeing her roughly around 1am on the night of the 16th. But there are several employees who we've not been able to track down and who were never interviewed that we would like to speak to.

[Detective Andrew Howden]

Yeah, that's true, Matt. We know a girl, like I said before, was serving their table, and we've never been able to talk to her. Police never interviewed her in 1983, so we feel like she would be someone that'd be very important for us to talk to. Were trying to track her down. We also identified and interviewed one more new witness, a woman who worked at PM Bentley's but quit shortly before Karen disappeared. She provided a shocking revelation that could potentially take this investigation in a totally new direction. Next time on Somebody Knows Something, we continue our investigation into the last place that Karen Shepers was seen alive, p.m. bentley's in Carpentersville, Illinois. During the initial investigation in 1983, p.m. bentley's owner provided the police with a list of employees who worked that night that Karen disappeared. He also told police that just two months before Karen vanished, a female employee reported that a man followed her home from the bar after she got off work. That employee was never interviewed. And when we recently tracked her down, she told us that someone did a whole lot more than just follow her home.

[Chief Anna Lally]

If you or anyone you know has information about this case or any other cold case in Elgin, please contact the Elgin Police Department cold case [e-mail] or the Cold Case Tips Line at 847289. Cold. You can also review cold case information on the Elgin Police Department's Transparency Hub by going to elginil.gov and navigating to the Elgin Police Department's Transparency Hub, where every cold case, homicide and missing persons case is listed with photographs and information about each case.