Episode 5 - Lurking In The Parking Lot

Summary

Podcast Summary: Somebody Knows Something – Episode 5: "Lurking In The Parking Lot"

Title: Somebody Knows Something
Host/Author: EPD Cold Case
Episode: Episode 5 - Lurking In The Parking Lot
Release Date: March 3, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 5 of "Somebody Knows Something," titled "Lurking In The Parking Lot," Detectives Andrew Houghton and Matt Vartanian delve deeper into the mysterious disappearance of Karen Schepers, a 23-year-old who vanished without a trace after a night out at PM Bentley's bar in Elgin, Illinois, on April 16, 1983. This episode introduces new evidence and a fresh witness, potentially shifting the direction of the ongoing investigation.

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Recap of Previous Episode

Detective Matt Vartanian begins by recapping the previous episode, where listeners were taken to the original site of PM Bentley's and introduced to a witness claim involving Karen and a group of bikers (01:53). A significant tip about a man with a beige van, alleged by a woman to be connected to Karen's disappearance, was also discussed.

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Introduction of a New Witness: Susanna

The episode takes a pivotal turn with the introduction of Susanna, a former employee of PM Bentley's who had never been interviewed by the police in relation to Karen's case until now. Her testimony unveils unsettling events leading up to Karen's disappearance.

Detective Andrew Houghton [02:48]:
"We tracked down a new witness who was never interviewed by police for this case. In this episode, we will hear directly from her and her new information which could point this investigation in a totally new direction."

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Susanna’s Experience at PM Bentley’s

Susanna provides a detailed account of her time working at PM Bentley's, painting a vivid picture of the bar's atmosphere and clientele during the early 1980s.

Susanna [04:55]:
"I was trying to do a timeline. So my best recollection is that I must have started in the fall of 1982. I worked there part-time... The uniform that we were given is a pair of green tight shorts and a yellow T shirt that was pretty form-fitting as well. It was kind of like oh, Hooters outfit to compare it to."

She describes an initial clientele of "nice young kids" who came to enjoy live music and dance, later noting an influx of motorcycle enthusiasts who often caused disturbances.

Susanna [06:11]:
"I think probably somewhere closer to the end of me leaving, we were getting motorcycle people coming in. And I'm not saying anything bad about motorcycle riders, but I think it was a lot of people that we weren't used to. If you were local people trying to have a good time, so they were."

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Stalking Incidents and Disturbing Letters

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Susanna's unsettling experiences with stalking. She recounts being followed home and finding disturbing letters left in her car.

Susanna [10:13]:
"So he a person, I should say. I can't say exactly who at that time followed me. And then when I turned into my driveway and Lake in the Hills, it went straight."

She describes the car following incidents without specific details about the perpetrator's vehicle, highlighting the fear and uncertainty she felt during that period.

Furthermore, Susanna reveals that harmful acts were done to her personal belongings:

Susanna [12:05]:
"I would drive a little sports car, convertible. I was young and dumb, but I would drive that to the bar... my stuffed animals were literally tied up and strangled and by the seat belts of my car."

The situation escalated with the discovery of increasingly disturbing notes, culminating in a particularly graphic letter:

Susanna [14:50]:
"He addresses it to Beaver and he ends it Beaver squeezer... he was jealous that one of your beavers was a boy. So I strangled him with a seatbelt in the driver's seat."

This letter not only underscores the sinister nature of the stalking but also connects directly to the timeframe preceding Karen's disappearance.

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Connection to John Wayne Gacy

A crucial revelation comes when Susanna identifies the stalker as the nephew of the infamous serial killer John Wayne Gacy.

Susanna [19:21]:
"...a fellow who was the nephew of John Wayne Gacy... Squeezing... Strangling my beavers..."

This connection adds a chilling layer to the investigation, given Gacy's notorious history in the region.

Detectives pursue this lead by contacting former employees and uncovering the identity of the suspect, though he denies involvement:

Unnamed Employee [24:26]:
"He worked for me at the Family Inn as a bus boy... I know John Wayne Gacy, but I deny writing any letters... never talked about Gacy."

Despite the suspect's denial, his proximity to Gacy and the nature of his interactions with Susanna remain significant.

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Police Investigation and Theories

Detectives Houghton and Vartanian analyze the new information, considering multiple theories that could explain Karen Schepers' disappearance.

1. Biker Involvement: The initial witness account of Karen seen with bikers and the disturbances caused by motorcycle enthusiasts at PM Bentley's suggest a possible link (03:23).

2. Stalking and Serial Killers: Susanna's stalking experience and the connection to John Wayne Gacy introduce the possibility that a serial killer or obsessive individual might be involved.

3. Potential Internal Staff Involvement: The identification of an off-the-books employee and the lack of records from 1982-1983 complicate the investigation, raising questions about internal staff dynamics and overlooked suspects.

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Calls for Public Assistance

Recognizing the complexity of the case and the passage of time, the detectives appeal to the public for assistance. They seek information from former employees, witnesses, and anyone with knowledge related to PM Bentley's or similar incidents during that era.

Detective Matt Vartanian [24:37]:
"If you or anyone you know worked at either location back then knows any information that might be useful or remembers this person or Susanna, please contact us."

This outreach underscores the importance of community involvement in solving cold cases, emphasizing that "somebody knows something."

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Conclusion and Future Directions

Detectives Houghton and Vartanian conclude the episode by outlining the next steps in their investigation. They hint at exploring additional theories, including the possibility that Karen was harmed during her drive home or by external factors unrelated to PM Bentley's.

Detective Matt Vartanian [32:03]:
"Next time on Somebody Knows Something, we look at the option that Karen safely left PM Bentley's. Then something happened to her on her drive home."

The episode effectively sets the stage for subsequent investigations, promising listeners a deeper dive into alternative scenarios surrounding Karen's disappearance.

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Key Takeaways and Notable Quotes

• Chief Anna Lally [01:09]:
  "We believe that the Elgin Police Department and our community can work together to bring closure to cold cases because we know that in these cases, somebody knows something."

• Detective Andrew Houghton [15:34]:
  "They left some horrible things in her car... something runs in passion as red as your car."

• Susanna [16:46]:
  "He addresses it to Beaver and he ends it Beaver squeezer... he was jealous that one of your beavers was a boy."

These quotes capture the essence of the episode's themes: community collaboration, the disturbing nature of the stalking, and the personal impact on those involved.

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Final Appeal

The episode concludes with a heartfelt invitation for listeners to contribute any information they might have, reiterating the detectives' commitment to solving the case.

Detective Andrew Houghton [33:07]:
"If you or anyone you know has information about this case or any other cold case in Elgin, please contact the Elgin Police Department..."

By leveraging the power of storytelling and public engagement, "Somebody Knows Something" seeks to unearth new leads that could finally bring resolution to Karen Schepers' enduring mystery.

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Disclaimer:
This summary is based on a podcast transcript and is intended to provide an overview of the episode's content. All discussed theories and statements are part of an ongoing investigation, and no conclusions should be drawn without official confirmation from the Elgin Police Department.

Transcript

[Narrator]

This podcast is based on information sourced primarily from police and media reports, but certain names and other identifying details may have been changed or altered for privacy and security reasons. While the events and cases discussed are based on real investigations, some aspects may be simplified for time and for narrative purposes. Voice actors have been used to read from statements or documents. All information presented is intended solely to inform and raise awareness. Hosts may discuss theories regarding the cases examined in this podcast, but such discussions are not intended to and should not be considered by the listener to be legal. Conclusions all persons discussed are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Listener discretion is advised.

[Chief Anna Lally]

This is Chief Anna Lally. Welcome to Somebody Knows Something, a podcast from the Elgin Police Department's Cold Case Unit. In this podcast, we will shed new light on cold cases in the city of Elgin by sharing untold details and by encouraging anyone with information to come forward. You will come along with real cold case detectives as they investigate active cold cases in real time and seek justice for the victims and closure for their families. We believe that the Elgin Police Department and our community can work together to bring closure to cold cases because we know that in these cases, somebody knows something.

[Susanna]

Foreign.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Welcome to the Elgin Police Department Cold Case Podcast. Somebody Knows Something. My name is Detective Andrew Houghton.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

And I'm Detective Matt Vartanian. Last episode, we took our listeners to the site where PM Bentley's was located in 1983 and discussed with a witness who claimed that he saw Karen with some bikers both inside on April 15th outside the bar in the early morning hours of April 16th of 1983. We also reviewed a tip about a man with a beige van who a woman said claimed he was responsible for Karen's disappearance. Since we began our investigation, we tracked down a new witness who was never interviewed by police for this case. In this episode, we will hear directly from her and her new information which could point this investigation in a totally new direction.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Okay, so we visited the site where PM Bentley's was located and we spoke with the owner, Frank, who's been really helpful regarding history of the bar, things like that. Back in 1983, Frank cooperated fully with police, was interviewed, and he gave a list of numerous employees who were working the night that Karen went missing. He also gave another piece of potentially valuable information that was never fully fleshed out until now.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

That's right. The original report from April of 1983 included a list of employees and the original officer at that time wrote three sentences in his report that we felt could be very, very important.

[Frank]

The owner advised that he had a former employee that worked for him in January 1983. He advised of a particular incident that happened with her that month. She advised him that one night after leaving the tavern, a subject followed her home in a car.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

That former employee was no longer working at PM Bentley's on April 15th of 1983. But that information certainly piqued our interest, especially when we realized that no one ever had talked to her.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, as we've talked about in the past, tracking people down almost four decades later can be really difficult. And it took us some time to find out who this employee actually was, given that her last name had changed since 1983. And there wasn't a date of birth provided for her in the report. But we were able to do it. And when we did, man, Matt, I mean, she had some really interesting things to tell us.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, the former employee's name is Susanna. When we first spoke to Susanna on the phone, she had no knowledge of this case whatsoever. She had never even heard about Karen or that anyone had gone missing. In fact, she asked us how we even got her name.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

We explained to her who we were and what we were doing.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

And.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

And once she kind of found that out, she asked us to tell her a little bit about Karen's case. Once she understood what our goals were and what this case was all about, she was more than happy to help us in any way that she could.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

We asked Susannah about her time at PM Bentley's, what it was like to work there, and what type of crowd the bar typically had on any given night, specifically on the weekends. This is what she had to say.

[Susanna]

I was trying to do a timeline. So my best recollection is that I must have started in the fall of 1982. I worked there part time. I was a secretary by day for a private restaurant and then I worked there part time, probably on the weekends mostly. The uniform that we were given is a pair of green tight shorts and a yellow T shirt that was pretty form fitting as well. It was kind of like oh, Hooters outfit to compare it to.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Okay, okay.

[Susanna]

So that was our standard outfit. And the clientele that was there in the beginning, it was when they first really opened up, was very nice young kids basically coming in to hear live music. The bands were different kinds of bands, of course, different kinds of music, mostly pop rock. And people could come in, have a cocktail dance and it would be open till 2am in the morning and then, you know, go on their merry way for breakfast.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

You said that the clientele initially Was pretty good. Like younger kids coming in to hear bands. Was there a change in that during the time you worked there?

[Susanna]

I think probably somewhere closer to the end of me leaving, we were getting motorcycle people coming in. And I'm not saying anything bad about motorcycle riders, but I think it was a lot of people that we weren't used to. If you were local people trying to have a good time, so they were.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Outsiders, I would say, obviously, because this biker angle is something that has come up in the investigation. We wanted a little bit more information about that. This is an off the wall question with this, but do you ever remember them, like, wearing, like, black leather vests with, like, colors on the back of them that would signify, you know, maybe like, belonging to a gang or anything like that?

[Susanna]

I know that there were, like, in the summer, I think they were wearing the vest with a T shirt type thing. And then I can't remember if there was anything on the back of their vest or anything.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay, and do you remember them ever causing problems, you know, for you guys at all?

[Susanna]

I think there was some times where they were asked to leave, and I don't know if they were happy about that. You know, everybody's wanting to have a good time and, you know, not be kicked out of a bar. But I do know there was some kind of confrontation a couple of times that. When they were asked to leave.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay. And when you say confrontation, like, did they get into it with, like, the bouncers or, like, just other clientele, or did, like, the police have to be involved?

[Susanna]

I don't know, because once I was bar, I was the bartender, so I stayed behind the bar. So once they were asked to leave, I never knew if the police were out there. Yeah. With. With the manager or whatever. I know there was like a. A bouncer and then a manager type people that would take care of all that.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

We also asked Susanna to describe the bar's interior to us to get a better idea from her memory. As a worker there, we'd walked up there with Frank, but it was nice to get another perspective.

[Susanna]

So you, you went inside the mall, and there was like a little ramp area. There were no steps. So once you reached the bottom of that ramp, PM Bentley's was to your right.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Right.

[Susanna]

So you had to go through the double doors, first of all, to get into the building. The doors to the PM Bentleys was on the right as well. And that would have been locked unless the bar was open.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay.

[Susanna]

So once you walked in there, you were in, like, the lobby area. I don't know what else to call it. But that's where the payphone would be. That would be the bathrooms. If you made a very quick. Right. Once you entered, you would go into the actual bar area where you could sit. And I want to say it was like a square, probably more of a rectangular shaped bar. So it was totally enclosed. And you could sit all the way around the four sides of the bar. Oh, okay, okay, okay. And then right after, if you're going back into the lobby, if you walk right past the bathrooms, which would have been, you know, right after the right turn, you would have gone to the bar. The bathrooms were right there. So right after the bar would be the lounge area where they had stand up tables, table tops for a little lower seating. And then it had a pretty decent size dance floor. And at the back end of the lounge or the bar would be the stage for the bands.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Well, it was great to get that new perspective from Susanna about the layout. The atmosphere, the patrons, the background. What we really wanted to know about was Frank's statement about this guy potentially following her home back in 1983. Susanna confirmed that someone did follow her home. And she did tell Frank about it because it really freaked her out.

[Susanna]

So I would leave the bar. We would start cleaning up about 1:30. And if everybody was out the door, we were able to leave at 2. They were pretty strict about not having in the beginning. They were strict about getting out of there at 2:00. So I had left and I lived all the way in Lake in the Hills.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay.

[Susanna]

So I thought it was weird that a car was turning. You know, first of all, when you see somebody turning out in the parking lot, you just think everybody's leaving. And then when I kept turning, I kept thinking that person's like turning all the way the same way I am. And they, and they were right behind me the whole time. It wasn't like there was a stoplight. I lost them. Another car got in front of them or turned in front of them at 2:00 in the morning, there wasn't a whole lot of people on the road.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yes.

[Susanna]

So he a person, I should say. I can't say exactly who at that time followed me. And then when I turned into my driveway and Lake in the Hills, it went straight.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Do you remember anything about the car that followed you?

[Susanna]

I. I guess I don't really remember a whole lot. I want to say it was. It was a car versus a truck.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Okay.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

And you said, yeah. When you pulled into your driveway, did you. Was It a single family home or was it an apartment or like a.

[Susanna]

I lived with my parents, so it was a four bedroom, full basement home with a garage. But I was the one that had to park outside the garage because I came in last.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, it was like in a subdivision, I assume.

[Susanna]

Yes, yes. It's right off of Randall Road.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay, got it.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Do you remember anything else about the car, like color, size, anything like that?

[Susanna]

No, because I was kind of freakish, you know, that was the age before I had a cell phone. So it's not like you could make a phone call on the way home and ask somebody to be waiting for you or whatever. So I just wanted hurry up, get in the driveway and then run in the house.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Someone following Susannah home is certainly a lead we wanted to look at. But we never expected Susanna to tell us that a whole lot more had happened to her while she worked at PM Bentley's.

[Susanna]

Yes, I was. I drove a little sports car, convertible. I was young and dumb, but I would drive that to the bar. And there were several occasions I would go out to my car and I had some stuffed animals in the car as well. You know, your mother gives you crazy stuffed animals and you put them in the back seat of your car. So when I had come out a few times, my stuffed animals were literally tied up and strangled and by the seat belts of my car. And a note would be left on the steering wheel.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Did anything else ever happen with your car when it was in the lot?

[Susanna]

Yes. So I would come out some days and because it was a stick shift, that they could easily move my car. And because back in the day, the mall, I think, was bigger than what it is now. And the sidewalks were real large or wide, I should say. And my car would be down 10, 15 storefronts down the sidewalk. Because I'd walk out and I'd be like, where's my car?

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, you. Now, you described that the one time that you came out and you found the stuffed animals strangled with the seat belts, there was a note on your steering wheel, is that right?

[Susanna]

Actually, it was a couple times that I have found notes on my steering wheel. And it progressively got a little more demented and a little bit weirder every time I find another note.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Would you be able to share with us some of the details of the note? Like just kind of how, like what they were kind of talking about at first. And then how it kind of got a little scarier for you?

[Susanna]

Yeah, so in the beginning, it would just be about my animals or me, so. And this is kind of weird. So I was real young and I would chew on wooden pencils all the time. I guess I had very large front teeth. So my mother always used to call me Beaver. So her. Her idea was to give me stuffed animals that were beavers. So inside my car were all stuffed beavers. Okay, so one of the letters was addressed to Beaver.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Susanna went on to tell us that the letters were sexual and stalking in nature and that she was pretty concerned about the car being moved, the person following her home, and the letters. She also told us that multiple letters were left in her car at various times in late 1982 or maybe early of 1983. She didn't remember all the details about the letters, but said that they really did kind of creep her out. Then shortly after we hung up with her, she called us back.

[Susanna]

Hey, this is Susannah. I just wanted to inform you that I had found one of the letters that I received during the time I worked at Pam Bentley's. It is from the fellow that followed me home and it is quite disturbing. Letter. He addresses it to Beaver and he ends it Beaver squeezer. And the contents of the letter is kind of sick and demented. Talks about strangling my beavers and wants a threesome with me. My car, my beavers. So I just want to let you know I got this letter and I will give it to you in person when I see you.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Okay, Matt. So we were pretty blown away that Susanna still had one of these letters.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

And we were really interested in hearing what it had to say, so we immediately called her back. And when she read the letter to us over the phone and then sent us a photograph of it, we both agreed the contents were very disturbing. Here is what that actual letter said.

[Frank]

Beaver saw you at Rick's grad party. Loved your laugh.

[Susanna]

He, he, he.

[Frank]

You really seemed to know how to put the ha ha in party. I would like to meet you but I'm too shy at this time so I'll just sit and stare at your car and fantasize how you use your hand on the stick shift. This fantasy runs in passion as red as your car. What do you say we get together and have a threesome with you, your car and me not in it but under it. I love a tight squeeze. I was jealous that one of your beavers was a boy. So I strangled him with a seatbelt in the driver's seat. End Part 1 that's all for now. See you Friday, Beaver squeezer.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Okay, so I don't know about you. I mean, I was pretty shocked about the contents of this letter. It was written and placed in Susanna's car in the months leading up to Karen's disappearance. And she disappeared from the same place, the same, you know, location. Someone had clearly stalked Susanna's car, stalked Susanna, entered her car, strangled her stuffed animals on multiple occasions. You know, we both think, and Susannah did, too, that it's likely that the same person that left these notes and entered her car is the same person. Also moved her car across the parking lot, and she thinks it's probably the same person that also followed her home.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. Susanna also provided us with a picture of herself in 1982, and she looked very similar to Karen. Both women are white. Susannah was almost 22 years old when Karen vanished. And then, as people Remember, Karen was 23. And Susannah was similar in height, weight, and had a pretty similar hairstyle to some of the early 80 photos that we have of Karen. She fears that the same person could have potentially had something to do with Karen's disappearance.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Susanna went on to tell us that this beaver squeezer letter was the first letter she got in a series of four or maybe five letters. While she didn't remember the exact contents of the subsequent letters, she did say they progressively got more sexual and more intense. And this first letter, we felt, was sexually pretty intense in the first place.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

So according to Susanna, this first letter was the most tame one. They must have gotten pretty graphic moving forward.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. Susannah was understandably concerned about all the actions in the parking lot with her car and with the fact that the author of the letters referenced her as, quote, unquote, beaver, something that only people who were around her would have known about. She also said that the subsequent letters talked about things at the bar, so she felt that the author was certainly someone who was around PM Bentley's at the time when she was working, kind of like someone that. Who was maybe a regular customer or maybe even an employee.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Susanna did report the letters to Carpentersville police either in late 82 or early 1983, a little before Karen's disappearance. According to her, the police did some extra patrols around closing time, and she turned in a couple of the letters to the police department. Unfortunately, when we went back and tried to look for those records, records from 82 and 83 just don't exist anymore. The retention periods for that type of case is different because it's not a homicide or some other case where you would keep those records. Thankfully, she was able to come across this one letter in her storage unit, and it gives us a really good idea of the content of these letters.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

As we discussed the actual letter with Susanna, she had one more really big piece of information she wanted to share with us. She believed that she knew who was sending the letters.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Was there ever an occasion where you discovered who was writing these letters to you?

[Susanna]

Yeah, so I didn't say much to anybody else. I was told to try to keep it as minimal as possible just in case that we had to reference something down the road that I wasn't telling everyone about what was going on. So we had a fellow that was working behind the bar. He would stock the bar, he would go for ice, he would fill empty liquor bottles, that type of thing. Kind of a bar back, I guess is what you call them now.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah.

[Susanna]

So one day he was saying something and he just happened to be the nephew of John Wayne Gacy. And he made it known that this was the time that John Wayne Gacy got caught and that he felt like his uncle was innocent, that he would go see his uncle. And he. I think he referenced something about the situation with his uncle and then something about one of the notes, something that was in one of the notes that he had left. I can't remember what it was specifically about, but I do know I didn't tell him anything about those letters. So when I started thinking about it, my brother had just gotten home from the Marines and I was sitting at our table talking about what's been happening to me and how I'm kind of getting more scared to go to work and what I'm going to find once I get out of work. So I guess my brother was very protective of me and had shown up at the bar unexpected. I didn't know what he was doing there because I'm like, no, normally do this. He had made a comment and they stepped outside for a minute. And then after that, I never got any more letters. I was never really spoken to.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

The problem was taken care of.

[Susanna]

Yeah, it kind of disappeared.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

This guy that your brother confronted, can you just describe what he looked like or what?

[Susanna]

I want to say he was probably about 5, 8 to 5, 10, extremely short, dark hair. I want to say he wore glasses like Clark Kent. You know, the black framed glasses, kind of squared. And then he would always wear a green jacket, vinyl jacket, that said PM Bentley's on it.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Did you ever come to an occasion where you would know, like, where he lived or anything like that?

[Susanna]

I didn't know where he lived. I would assumed he lived somewhere in the area because he would go to visit his uncle. Several times. And then when he was in. His uncle was in prison, John Wayne Gacy, he would visit him a lot and get napkins or papers of his pictures he doodled in prison. And then he would actually bring them back to the bar trying to get money for the artwork so he could help pay for attorney fees. So I'm assuming that she was somewhere in the area so he could do all of this.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

It sounds like Susanna's Marine Corps brother basically told this guy, you know, knock it off. And lo and behold, the letters had stopped, the following stopped, and the car getting moved around had stopped also. I mean, everything stopped. Yeah. This made Susanna feel pretty confident that she knew who was responsible for stalking her and moving her car. Susanna didn't remember the guy's name, but as you would imagine, in the Chicagoland area specifically in the 1980s, anything that was associated with the name John Wayne Gacy was pretty memorable.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah, for sure. Our listeners might remember that. Even Terry himself mentions Gacy in one of the statements we found in the newspaper. We played that in a previous episode. So obviously this Gacy issue was something that was still on people's mind out here, even in 1983. Well, we thought this little nugget of information about this Gacy connection would be useful to maybe try to track down who this guy actually was and confirm if he did actually write the letters or not.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

So armed with this Gacy connection, but no name, we reached out to Frank and another manager who worked at p.m. bentley's back in 1983. Both men gave us the same name immediately when we asked them about any former employees who either were or maybe claimed to be somehow associated with John Wayne Gacy. And both confirmed that the same man worked at two other area restaurants and p.m. bentley's. Those two restaurants were Cattleman's Restaurant in Algonquin and the Family Inn in East Dundee. This guy also worked primarily weekends at PM Bentley's, but was kind of an off the books employee. Here's Frank talking about him. There was an employee that was not on the books with you guys here that I called and I talked to you about on the phone. I'd ask you about a guy that maybe was related to or claimed to be related to John Wayne Gacy.

[Unnamed Employee]

Oh, yeah, yeah. He was. Used to come in and clean up just his stuff for. He worked for me at the Family Inn as a bus boy.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Employee]

And when we came here, he's kind of hang out, you know, when he.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Would hang out here, like, what did he do for you?

[Unnamed Employee]

Just Clean up.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Okay.

[Unnamed Employee]

Sweep the floors.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Would it be common for him to be there on a weekend? Like, not as a paid employee or like kind of off the books employee helping out, like the weekend that she could have been there. Is it possible he could have been.

[Unnamed Employee]

Could have been here?

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Once we figured out who this person was, we realized that he was not included on the original list of employees that Frank had provided back in 1983. So obviously we wanted to track him down to talk to him about this case and to determine if he was responsible for the letters that were found in Susanna's car. This employee no longer lives in Illinois, but we did track him down and spoke with him.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

That's right. The employee, who we will not name in this podcast, told us that he did work at PM Bentley's, but he did not recall anything about Karen's case. He did remember Susanna and even described what she looked like to us. And he said he would sometimes walk her to her car because she was afraid. He remembered that she had stuffed beavers in her car, too. And he also thought he might have gone dancing with her at some point, but he wasn't sure. The employee confirmed that he knew John Wayne Gacy, but he denied ever bringing any letters into the bar or drawings and denied ever openly talking about Gacy. He also denied writing any letters that were left in Susanna's car, and he denied any other actions surrounding Susanna or her car. He even offered to provide a handwriting sample if necessary. The employee also mentioned that he believed PM Bentley's did not open until the spring of 1983. So we're working to track down some of those exact dates. I should note that in the original report, on April 21, 1983, Frank told the police that Susanna had someone follow her home in January and she no longer worked for him by April. So it does appear the bar had to have been open in the spring of 83. And we know that Susanna and this employee did work together because they both remembered each other and they both describe each other. We'll continue to track down more information, but that's why we need your help. We need help from the public. If any listeners knew or worked with Susanna or Anyone else at PM Bentley's in 1983, please contact us at this time. We cannot confirm who wrote the letters, but we will certainly be looking into this and doing more follow up as we look at this new lead and try to learn things about Susanna's letter, what happened to her, and to see if it's related to this case. You know, Matt, we should note that we did call Suzanna back after we talked to this employee, and she maintained her original statement.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yes.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

She said she never talked to this guy about the letters. She never had him walk her to her car, and she never went dancing with him. She really had nothing to do with him. So her story is her story and his is his. That's why we need to keep looking into this case and talking to as many people as we can. We want to get input from other employees who either knew this employee or Susanna or anyone else at the bar who could have been writing these letters to her. Well, as in past episodes, this is where we want to ask for your help. If any listeners knew or worked with Susanna or this other employee, please contact us. We know that this employee worked part time at p.m. bentley's on the weekends and at both Family Inn in East Dundee and Cattleman's Restaurant in Algonquin. So if you or anyone you know worked at either location back then knows any information that might be useful or remembers this person or Susanna, please contact us.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, and I'd like to add, if you or anyone you know remember anything about notes being left on Susanna's car or had someone leave similar notes on your car, move your car in any way, or follow you home or anything else like that, anything that's similar to Susanna's story, especially in the Elgin, Carpentersville, Dundee and Algonquin areas in the 1980s, please reach out to us. We would love to talk to you. This new wrinkle in the case is something that we will continue looking into, and we'd like to get as much information from the public as we can as we look into this new potential lead.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

We both want to thank Susannah for talking with us and giving this information to us, and thank Frank for his help with the case and for taking time out of his day to meet with us multiple times. Go up to the site and walk us through some places. It was really helpful. Frank was very cooperative with the police back in 1983 and remains cooperative today. He provided a lot of information on different employees that worked the night that Karen went missing. And police talk to some of them, and we've talked to some of them, but we're still having trouble tracking them all down. If you are an employee that did work at PM Bentley's, please contact us. We'd love to talk to you. And specifically, if there's any listeners who worked at p.m. bentley's between 1982 and 1983 or recognize any of the following names that I'm going to list. Please contact us. These are a couple of the employees that we have not been able to locate, but based on the original report, we know they had some sort of contact with Karen in the bar. The first is a woman named Vedetta. She was reportedly a waitress and was waiting the tables where Karen and her group were.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

That's right.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

The second is a woman named Stormy, and she was reportedly a bartender who told police back in 1983 she briefly talked to Karen in the bathroom and remembered seeing her at the bar. And the third person is a man named Dave or David who was a server or a bartender and told the police that he remembered seeing Karen Sometime around 1am still inside the bar.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

We'd like to add that we have no reason to believe that any of these people that we had just talked about were in any way involved in Karen's disappearance. They were just simply workers who worked there based on the original reports that we had found or had some type of contact with Karen that night. And one of them was never interviewed at all. We would love to have the opportunity to be able to sit down and interview them and any other employees who might have information as we look over and review this case. That is a huge reason why we're using this platform to release information and to talk about Karen's case. So please contact us if these names ring a bell or if you know anyone else who was working at PM Bentleys in 1983. And I'd like to add, if anybody has any pictures of the way that PM Bentleys looked in the early 1980s, please send that over to us.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah, you can send them to our email address. It's the cold casetipselgenil.gov While Matt, I think we both certainly think there's some things about theory number two that could be important. It's entirely possible that PM Bentley's the bar is the site where the answer to Kieran's disappearance lies. Let's recap a couple different things. First, we have David, who we talked about last episode. He thought he saw Karen inside the bar and possibly outside the bar talking to a biker and then arguing with the biker outside.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

That's right.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

There were bikers that were known to frequent the bar. And according to both Frank and Susanna, they sometimes caused problems there. Some connection to a biker or group of bikers could certainly be relevant for Karen's case.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. And now we have another person that is basically stalking Susanna, leaving her notes, moving her car in the parking lot, following her home, and to us that is a big red flag and it's just a few months before Karen had disappeared.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Given all the possibilities, I don't think either of us are ready to write off this theory just yet. We have some more work to do regarding this part time employee or some other employee who's possibly leaving these letters on Susanna's car. We also briefly mentioned there was a carnival nearby at the time. We're still looking into that. Plus some other tips have come in about bikers in the area and things of that nature. Hopefully, as we continue the season, more people will come forward with more new information that will help us keep looking at theory number two. Something happened at PM Bentley's. As always, you can provide your name or provide information anonymously. What you know is more important to us than who you are. I know we've said that a couple times.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, that's right. And as we get new information on this theory, or any other theory for that matter, we will certainly update our listeners when we can. But I think for now it's time that we move on to theory number three and consider the option that Karen left the bar but that something had happened to her on her drive home. Next time on Somebody Knows Something, we look at the option that Karen safely left PM Bentley's. Then something happened to her on her drive home. Did Karen stop somewhere for some reason? Did she meet someone? Did somebody hurt her? We do know that there were at least three different serial killers operating in the Fox Valley area around the time of Karen's disappearance. Did one of them have something to do with Karen going missing? We will answer these questions and more. So please join us next time as we discuss theory number three, Karen's driveway.

[Chief Anna Lally]

If you or anyone you know has information about this case or any other cold case in Elgin, please contact the Elgin Police Department cold case [e-mail] or the cold case tip list at 847289 cold. You can also review cold case information on the Elgin Police Department's Transparency Hub by going to elginil.gov and navigating to the Elgin Police Department's Transparency Hub where every cold case, homicide and missing persons case is listed with photographs and information about each case.

[Susanna]

SA.