← Somebody Knows Something
Somebody Knows Something
Episode 6: Serial Killers on the Fox
00:30:16
Detectives Andrew Houghton and Matt Vartanian from the Elgin Police Department Cold Case Unit review multiple serial killers who were active in the Elgin area in the early 1980’s and travel to the Pontiac Correctional Facility to interview Brian...
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- [00:01]
Narrator
This podcast is based on information sourced primarily from police and media reports, but certain names and other identifying details may have been changed or altered for privacy and security reasons. While the events and cases discussed are based on real investigations, some aspects may be simplified for time and for narrative purposes. Voice actors have been used to read from statements or documents. All information presented is intended solely to inform and raise awareness. Hosts may discuss theories regarding the cases examined in this podcast, but such discussions are not intended to and should not be considered by the listener to be legal. Conclusions all persons discussed are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Listener discretion is advised.
- [01:03]
Chief Anna Lally
This is Chief Anna Lally. Welcome to Somebody Knows Something, a podcast from the Elgin Police Department's Cold Case Unit. In this podcast, we will shed new light on cold cases in the city of Elgin by sharing untold details and by encouraging anyone with information to come forward. You will come along with real cold case detectives as they investigate active cold cases in real time and seek justice for the victims and closure for their families. We believe that the Elgin Police Department and our community can work together to bring closure to cold cases because we know that in these cases, somebody knows something.
- [01:44]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Foreign hello and welcome to Somebody Knows Something, the Elgin Police Department Cold Case Podcast. My name is Detective Andrew Houghton and.
- [02:03]
Detective Matt Vartanian
I'm Detective Matt Vartanian.
- [02:06]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Last episode we revealed information about a new lead regarding notes left on a car in the parking lot at PM Bentley's, and this week we're moving on to theory number three.
- [02:14]
Detective Matt Vartanian
In this episode, we will make an assumption that Karen did leave in her vehicle alone and had planned to drive back to Elgin. And we will theorize that she potentially made contact with someone on her drive back to Elgin.
- [02:27]
Detective Andrew Houghton
You know, Matt, we've taken a few drives up the location where PM Bentley's was and both to Karen's apartment and Terry's old house. The drive to Karen's from the bar is about 10 minutes, and the drive to Terry is just a few minutes longer than that. I know we're certainly going to talk a lot more about Karen's apartment and about Terry's house in later episodes, but it's important to remind our listeners that all three locations the bar, Karen's apartment, and Terry's house are located on the east side of the Fox River.
- [02:52]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah, we will take our listeners along with us to recreate the two routes that we believe would have been most likely the travel routes for Karen in a future episode. But for now, we are focusing simply on the idea that Karen crossed paths with another person on her drive back to Elgin.
- [03:10]
Detective Andrew Houghton
I will say briefly that we have considered the fact that Karen could have potentially gone somewhere else other than Terry's house and her house when she left. So in case anyone out there is thinking about that option, we have thought about that.
- [03:22]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah.
- [03:22]
Detective Andrew Houghton
The problem is that Karen didn't have another boyfriend. She didn't have family that was close by. She had no reason that we can find that would make her drive off to some way that was away from Elgin.
- [03:33]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Right. We do know that one of Karen's best friends, Shirley, lived near the bar, and she was devastated when Karen went missing. She said that Karen never came over after the bar that night. And we have no reason to believe that Karen was there at any point. Shirley lived in the Meadowdale Apartments within a few blocks of PM Bentley's.
- [03:54]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yeah. So even if she drove by there, she's still staying on the east side of the river. We also thought about the option that Karen could have gone to some afterbar in the area. So we interviewed a bunch of people from the area, including Frank, the owner of PM Bentley's, and other people about different places that people would go when the 2am bars would close. I think it's important to note that Karen's friends, her family, her co workers, all describe her as not really the type that would go out by herself to some other bar like that late. And there's no cell phone, so we can't show that she, like, got a call from somebody saying, hey, come over to so and so's place. That's where we're all at. There was a bar over by Floyd's. There was a bar called Penny Road Pub. Some of those spots may have been open past 2am but it would be hard for Karen to know that people were there because no one could call her to say, hey, come to this other bar. She would have had to go there with someone she met or have frequented in those other places on a regular basis, which we don't have any evidence to support that.
- [04:52]
Detective Matt Vartanian
That's right. Well, the main topic that we want to talk about in this episode is that there were active serial killers during the early 1980s. In this episode, we will talk about three of those serial killers or serial killer groups. The first serial killer we want to discuss came to our attention when North Aurora solved the case in 2024. Since then, a number of people have contacted us and speculated that the offender in that case could be involved in Kieran's disappearance.
- [05:21]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Okay. Like you said, so October 2024 is a couple months Back, the North Aurora Police Department revealed they had solved the 1979 murder of a 19 year old girl named Kathy Holly. On March 29, 1979, Kathy left her home in North Aurora and planned to walk to the Northgate Shopping center to meet her sister, but she never made it there.
- [05:42]
Detective Matt Vartanian
And then almost a month later, on April 24th of 1979, a young boy who was fishing in the Fox river just south of the I88 bridge in North Aurora discovered her body. Police believe that she was abducted from the parking lot of her apartment complex prior to leaving for the shopping center. You know, certainly an abduction in a parking lot could be similar to Karen's case here, Right?
- [06:06]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yeah. And she was going to a shopping center. PM Bentley's was in a shopping center. Like there's some similarities there.
- [06:11]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah. So the North Aurora police were able to use genealogical DNA, something that we may use in one of our cases in the future to identify a suspect in Kathy's murder. His name is Bruce Lindahl.
- [06:23]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Just for some background on Lindahl. In 2020, he was linked by DNA to the 1976 rape and murder of a 16 year old girl named Pamela Maurer. She had been strangled and sexually assaulted. He was also a suspect in the 1980 rape and murder of a 25 year old woman named Deborah Colliander. She disappeared from Aurora as well. Like Kathy, Deborah was abducted from a parking lot and she was later buried in a field and found in rural Kendall county in 1982.
- [06:52]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah. Lindahl remains a suspect in the 1979 disappearance of another girl, too, 16 year old Deborah McCall. She vanished after leaving Downers Grove north high school on November 5th of 1979, and she has still never been found. You know, I know one thing we're trying to do with this podcast is generate community interest in cases like Deborah McCall's as well. Any information we can get and any attention that we can create to any of these unsolved cases, whether they're Elgin cases or not, is something we both think is really important.
- [07:25]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Absolutely. If we can generate interest or tips on any of these cases, we definitely want to do that.
- [07:30]
Detective Matt Vartanian
While Lindahl was linked to multiple abductions and murders, often involving women he abducted in parking lots, he was killed on April 4th of 1981, almost exactly two years before Karen went missing. Lindahl had met an 18 year old man named Charles Huber in Naperville that day and went with him to a female's apartment. Lindahl then attacked Huber, likely in an attempt to abduct the female. And Huber had fought back, causing Lindahl to inadvertently stab himself in the femoral artery. Both Huber, who likely saved his friend's life, and Lindell died from their injuries. So, Andrew, we can be 100% that we can exclude Lindahl as a suspect in our case with Karen.
- [08:12]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yeah, that's right. Again, I have to say, we appreciate tips people are giving us and posts on social media. We are looking at those and trying to follow up on them. Even a tip like this, which doesn't lead to a suspect, helps us narrow down people in the case. Right. And it helps encourage other people to still give us details and give us information and let us work out those finer details.
- [08:31]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah. Another tip that came back to police in 1983 involved a serial killer group known as the Ripper Crew. These guys were arrested for multiple murders in the early 1980s all over the Chicagoland area. In fact, this group was listed in the original file as a potential lead from tipsters back in 1983.
- [08:56]
Detective Andrew Houghton
That's right. And these guys actually might have a link to one of our other cold cases from 1979. In reviewing that case and speaking with the family, some believe that someone in this group could have possibly been involved with Renee Tovar's case. On November 24th of 1979, 24 year old Renee Tovar was brutally murdered in the 100 block of South Liberty street in her apartment. Renee was beaten and stabbed and mutilated. And there have been media reports and information, including a true crime book, which suggested that the Ripper crew, or at least some members could have been involved for that case. That case is still an active cold case on our docket. So we encourage people to check out Renee's case on our site and provide us any information they might have about her case. Okay, so this Ripper Crew consisted of four men. Andrew Cocorelius, his brother Thomas, a guy named Robin Geikt, and an accomplice, Edward Spritzer. Police estimated that these four men were responsible for brutalizing up to 20 different women in the early 1980s. And reports documented that in some of the cases, they cut off the victim's breasts after killing them, use them in satanic rituals and geist attic, and reportedly maybe even eight parts of their victims.
- [10:08]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Most of the women were abducted off the streets in Chicago and the western suburbs between roughly 1981 and 1982, right?
- [10:16]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yep.
- [10:17]
Detective Matt Vartanian
So the members were convicted for various offenses. And Andrew was actually executed in 1999. He was the last inmate to be executed in the state of Illinois. Both Robin and Edward remain incarcerated to this day. And Thomas was actually released in May of 2024 and is currently living in central Illinois.
- [10:37]
Detective Andrew Houghton
So I'm. I'm looking at some of the tips and documents from the original case file, Matt. And they talk about these guys as a suspect back then in 83. They were also suspects in the disappearance of Carol Pappas in wheaton, Illinois in 1982. She was the wife of Cubs pitcher Milt Pappas. Local area people will recognize that name. Milt Pappas spent 17 years in the major leagues with four different teams, including four seasons with the Cubs. He was a three time All Star. And on September 2, 1972, he pitched a no hitter against the San Diego Padres at Wrigley Field. This no hitter was the last no hitter thrown by a Cubs pitcher in Wrigley Field up until even this day. Needless to say, when his wife disappeared in 1982, it was a really big deal up here in the Chicago area.
- [11:20]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah.
- [11:21]
Detective Andrew Houghton
And Carol, people thought that maybe this Ripper crew was involved with her and killed her. It turned out that in 1987, her car was just found in a body of water close to the Pappas home. She had crashed and they pulled it out and there she was. That's a theory that kind of is consistent with Karen and one of the things we're going to look at with her later in the season.
- [11:41]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah, I know. We will be talking about that option soon on a future episode. So in 1983, the police ran down leads on the Ripper crew pretty quickly. Records show that all four of these guys were arrested in late 1982, just, you know, a few months prior to Karen's disappearance. So we can also rule them out as being involved in Karen's case.
- [12:03]
Detective Andrew Houghton
You know, Matt, I will say that one thing that was really shocking as we went down the rabbit hole in this theory was just the sheer number of different serial killers in the Fox Valley area in the 1970s and 80s. I mean, you go back to guys like John Wayne Gacy, which is like 30 or 40 minutes away from here, you jump into the 80s and a bunch of these guys in the Chicagoland area are out here. It's really crazy when you start to look at the area and realize how many missing persons there still are that are cold cases, how many murders that are still cold cases, and how many are potentially involving these different serial killers.
- [12:34]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah, there's one more person who tipsters, both in the past and since we've reopened this case, have brought to our attention as being possibly involved in Kieran's disappearance. That person's name is Brian Dugan. Dugan is still alive and was out of custody in the Fox Valley area in April of 1983. In fact, he had committed a murder just two months before Kieran had disappeared. At that time, Dugan was living in the Aurora area, and he's definitely someone we need to talk about as a viable deed in this case.
- [13:09]
Detective Andrew Houghton
For sure, Brian Dugan's story is an awful one. He really had that quintessential serial killer background. People that follow true crime podcasts and TV shows have probably heard of something called the McDonald Triad. It's a theory that was first suggested by a forensic psychiatrist named J.M. macDonald in 1963 in an article called the Threat to Kill. It's kind of fallen out of favor in recent years, but we wanted to mention it here because it is a popular theory in TV and movies, things like that, and some forensic psychiatrists still view it as a potentially useful tool. While it's not 100% predictive of future behavior, it might be somewhat predictive of future behavior. The theory basically says there are three different factors in childhood that can be predictive of violent tendencies, especially serial violent tendencies in adults. Those three factors are chronic bedwetting, fire setting, and animal cruelty. As I said, the theory has become more controversial over the years, but it basically says that if a child exhibits at least two of those different factors, there's a higher probability that that child could become an adult who exhibits predatory behavior. Matt, Brian Dugan had all three of those.
- [14:15]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yes. According to media reports, Brian was a chronic bedwetter from a young age. He was born in New Hampshire in 1956 and reportedly attempted to burn down the family's garage when he was only 8. Then he hit the trifecta when he was 13 and doused a family cat with gasoline and. And lit it on fire. Media reports had documented that Dugan was also a suspect in sexual offenses in his youth, including the attempted sexual assault of one of his siblings. Dugan's first confirmed case in Illinois that we could find was a case in 1974 in Lyle. He attempted to abduct a 10 year old girl at the Lyle train station, but she had screamed and run away. Dugan was arrested, but the charges had later been dropped.
- [14:57]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yeah, he had a number of different cases in Illinois, and those cases included three confirmed abductions where he raped and murdered a victim. Matt, I kind of want to work backwards here and walk through those cases just to get an idea of his cases.
- [15:10]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Sounds good.
- [15:12]
Detective Andrew Houghton
So Dugan was ultimately arrested and convicted of abducting a seven year old girl named Melissa Ackerman in Sominoc, Illinois, on June 2nd of 1985. Salmanok is about an hour from Elgin. It's a small, very rural town. And on that day, Dugan drove up to two girls, age 7 and age 8, in his blue AMC Gremlin. As they rode their bicycles on a rural roadway. He abducted Melissa's 8 year old friend and threw her into his car and then chased after Melissa, who fled. Melissa's friend was able to escape from Dugan's car even though he had disabled the rear locks. She was able to scramble over the seat and get out of the car as he came back carrying Melissa screaming. The friend fled and hid from Dugan. But Melissa wasn't as lucky. Her body was found several weeks later in a Creek about 15 miles from the site where she was abducted.
- [16:01]
Detective Matt Vartanian
So Dugan had later admitted to abducting, raping and strangling Melissa before dumping her body in that creek. And he was later convicted for that case. And that was when his confessions and later DNA had come into play.
- [16:13]
Detective Andrew Houghton
That's right. So after his arrest in 85, DNA and some statements linked Dugan back to not one, but two other murders. He was linked to the 1983 abduction, rape and murder of a 10 year old girl named Janine Nicaraco from her Naperville home. And a 1984 abduction, rape and murder of a 27 year old woman named Donna Schnorr near Batavia. All the sites of his abductions were in the Fox Valley area. And as we said before, he was living in Aurora and was around this area at the time Karen went missing.
- [16:45]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah, and we know that Dugan was incarcerated from 1979 to 1982, but he was paroled in July of 1982 and committed his first confirmed murder, the murder of 10 year old Janine on February 25th of 1983. Just two months before Karen had went missing. Janine had stayed home from school with the flu and her mother worked, you know, just down the street. She had come and checked on Janine throughout the day, even having lunch with her. And then at afternoon, Dugan knocked on the door and discovered that Janine was inside alone. When she refused to answer the door, he kicked it in, chased her up into her bedroom, and that is where he tied her up. He then kidnapped her and then drove her to a nearby park. After he raped her, Dugan had Janine walk down a gravel path barefoot. He crept up behind her and used the tire iron to bash her skull and dumped her body near and by. She was found roughly about two days later by some local hikers.
- [17:44]
Detective Andrew Houghton
There are lots of articles and information about Dugan, and each of his cases were huge in the area at the time. We could literally spend hours just talking about one of these cases, but really, it's his second murder that interests us the most. In relation to Karen.
- [17:56]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah, that's right. We know that Dugan targeted young children in two of his cases. Janine was 10 and Melissa was 7. But it was the abduction of Donna Schnorr on July 15th of 1984 which led citizens to submit tips regarding doing in this case and which we found to be relevant to this investigation.
- [18:16]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yeah, so Janine was abducted from her own home and Melissa was abducted on a roadway. But Donna was different in a couple ways. For starters, Donna was in her late 20s, and she bears a striking resemblance to Karen.
- [18:27]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah, that's right. Donna was a nurse who Dugan saw stopped at a red light on Aurora as she was driving home alone at roughly about 3am on July 15, 1984. He followed her onto Randall Road near Mooseart and then sideswiped her car and ran her off the road. Right.
- [18:44]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yeah. It sounds a little familiar to Karen's situation. Right. Assuming Karen left PM Bentley's and drove back to Elgin, she'd have been driving alone in the early morning hours. She's in her 20s. Plus, Donna's case was a little over a year after after Karen's disappearance. So we know he's active In February of 83, he's still active in 84, and he's out. He's not in prison.
- [19:05]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Right.
- [19:06]
Detective Andrew Houghton
So is it possible that Dugan did something similar to Karen?
- [19:09]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah, maybe.
- [19:11]
Detective Andrew Houghton
So, basically, after Dugan ran Donna off the road, he blocked her car in with his and exited his vehicle. She reportedly rolled down her window and said something like, hey, what the hell are you doing? And he approached her and punched her in the face, abducted her, tied her up and forced her in his car. He left her car parked on the shoulder of the roadway and drove a short distance to a nearby rock quarry where he raped her before drowning her in the quarry and dumping her body in the water. He later abandoned his car somewhere else to conceal the fact that there was potentially paint transfer between the two cars. And because as he was leaving, several men driving into the quarry to fish saw him driving out. Those same men found Donna's body just a couple hours later and called the police.
- [19:49]
Detective Matt Vartanian
So Dugan's MO Is not identical to Karen's case, But Karen was a young female in her 20s, potentially driving home alone that night. Similar to Donna's situation.
- [19:59]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yeah.
- [20:01]
Detective Matt Vartanian
You know, the thing is, Andrew Dugan did abduct, rape, and dump his victims in close proximity to where he had originally taken them. And all three of his confirmed victims were, you know, located fairly quickly after the crime had occurred. He also concealed two of the three and bodies of water.
- [20:18]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yeah, but there are numerous bodies of water along the routes Karen would have taken, including a large quarry. It is possible that he could have been close enough to simply conceal maybe both her body and the vehicle and that she just hasn't been found. Right?
- [20:31]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah. I mean, it is possible he had dumped Janine just off of a path, but it seemed like he progressed and learned something. After Janine's murder, Dugan dumped Donna and Melissa in water to try to conceal their bodies and likely to wash away any trace evidence. He even covered Melissa with large rocks. So he was sort of honing his craft a little bit here.
- [20:51]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yeah, and in Donna's case, he got rid of his own car. So it's at least plausible to theorize he could have potentially gotten rid of or concealed Karen's car. If he's getting rid of his own car, we just don't know. We have to at least consider that, though, right?
- [21:04]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah, that's true. I think we also should mention that Dugan was a suspect in numerous other cases as well, some of which were uncharged in 1985, that give or provide some other background on how he operated which might be relevant to Karen's case. So. So, for an example, in May of that year, he reportedly followed a woman who was driving alone all the way to her house and approached her pretending to be a concerned citizen. Dugan had told her that her tail light was out, and then he entered the woman's car armed with a knife and abducted and raped her. But he later released her.
- [21:37]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yeah. So again, something like this could have happened with Karen. Maybe Dugan follows her back to Elgin, parks on the street and approaches her in a similar manner. He could certainly force her to drive him somewhere else like that and then conceal her in the car. But then he'd have to get back and get to his car.
- [21:52]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah, the fact that he would not only run women off the roadway, but also follow them to their home could fit for Karen's case here. And, Andrew, obviously, we now have this situation with Susanna and someone following her home from PM Bentley's to think about that could be similar to Brian Dugan's MO as well.
- [22:09]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yeah.
- [22:10]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Dugan had also abducted a 19 year old woman who escaped from him and successfully abducted and raped a 16 year old in the days after that. Oddly enough, he didn't kill either of these women. He even told one of them his actual first name, Brian.
- [22:25]
Detective Andrew Houghton
You know, I think one thing we took away from going through all these cases with Brian Dugan is that if Karen did cross paths with Dugan, there's a number of things that he could have done other than just running her off the road like he did with D. Donna. He also didn't seem like he really pre planned very much. It seems like he was kind of just out and about, and if he saw an opportunity, he acted almost immediately. You know, he kidnaps a girl in broad daylight with Janine.
- [22:49]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah.
- [22:50]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Donna's driving along, and he runs her off the roadway and abducts her and then takes her to a place where people are frequently fishing and they actually see him leaving. You know, even with Melissa, the abduction site where he took her was close to a tractor dealership. And her friend that ran away was able to hide near that dealership so there'd be people around. I mean, he's not really careful in what he's doing.
- [23:11]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I agree. I. I think he definitely took some, you know, some steps. He disabled the locks, you know, in the car, for example, when he abducted Melissa. And it seems like he had equipment with him, you know, such as a knife and rope or duct tape, you know, something to. To bind somebody. But it didn't seem like he had a preplanned site to take his victims or to dump the bodies.
- [23:32]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yeah, and in some cases, he told the victim his actual name, and then he just lets them go. You know, he lets them live. In other instances, he killed the victim pretty shortly after the abduction and rape. You know, in one article, we found Dugan claimed to have let some of the women go because he claimed he was sure he wouldn't be caught in those cases and that the cases where he killed people were ones where he just. He was afraid he'd be caught. That just never really tracked for me, as I read it. Yeah, I mean, we're talking about him abducting adults and teens. Some of who saw his car, who he told his name, who saw his face, and he lets those people go. And then two of the three people he kills are little kids. You know, they may not have recognized him as well. They may not have remembered his car as well. It just didn't make sense to me that he would do that. I mean, I think that his credibility is just kind of shot. It's. It seems more likely to me that he would kill people that he thought he could get away with killing, not that he was afraid that he'd get caught so he would kill these kids.
- [24:31]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah, his actions just don't scream that he was, you know, very meticulous in his planning or had things, you know, really well thought out in advance. And he was very, very brutal with his victims. While we don't know if Dugan was involved in Karen's case, certainly there are similarities. Karen, like Donna, was a younger white female who was potentially driving home alone in the early morning hours, and she was driving in the Elgin area, which is close in proximity to his other cases.
- [25:00]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yeah, and Dugan had other cases where he followed women home and approached them there. Again, that's something that could be similar to Karen's case. In fact, some of Karen's family and friends actually reached out to us and asked if we were considering Brian Dugan as a suspect. So we certainly wanted to talk about him as a possibility in this case. You know, Dugan was sentenced to the death penalty for Jeanine's case. But in 2003, he, along with 166 other death row inmates here in Illinois, had their sentences commuted to life in prison by then governor George Ryan. It was the largest blanket commutation for the death penalty in American history. And Dugan's still alive. He's currently incarcerated in protective custody at the Pontiac Correctional Facility.
- [25:45]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Well, like we've said before, we decided at the start of this investigation that no tip or theory should be off the table for this case. So even though we can't specifically link Dugan to this case, and there are some differences between his cases and Karen's disappearance, there is enough there that we wanted to talk to Brian, so we went to Pontiac to do just that.
- [26:10]
Detective Andrew Houghton
All right, so we're here in Pontiac at the Pontiac Correctional Facility. Looks like there's about 600 inmates here. Building's been here since 1871. So it's an old facility. They have a max security prison here and a medium. Brian's over in. He's in protective custody, right, Matt?
- [26:30]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Yeah, protective custody. So, yeah, very much like the feel that you would kind of expect of, like, a state prison. Right. A lot of kind of spread out buildings, a big yard in the middle. The buildings look very kind of old and just kind of dated. I mean, obviously there's some snow on the Ground from last night. So kind of adds the effect to it a little bit.
- [26:50]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yeah, big concrete buildings like probably built in the 30s and 40s and stuff. Some old administrative buildings. But we're going to head in and see what Brian has to say and see if he wants to talk to us.
- [27:04]
Detective Matt Vartanian
Okay. So after arranging an interview and going through security, we waited for Dugan on. Was it the third floor interview room? Yeah, of their internal affairs unit at the jail. It's a long concrete building built in the 1930s. It looks, I mean, almost like something out of World War II or an old prison movie.
- [27:20]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Yeah.
- [27:21]
Detective Matt Vartanian
A guard escorted Dugan into the building. He was dressed in a blue uniform and was handcuffed to a chain around his waist. Dugan is 68 years old and he certainly looks it. He has gray hair and uses a walker to help him get around. After he came into the room, we asked that the cuffs be removed and Dugan took off his coat, rubbed his wrists and sat on a small bench in front of us in a room where there was a bank of windows that overlooked the snow covered court that was below.
- [27:46]
Detective Andrew Houghton
Dugan didn't have anything new to tell us, but I should add that in other media reports he's always maintained that he does not have any outstanding cases anywhere else in Illinois which would include Elgin and Carpentersville.
- [27:58]
Detective Matt Vartanian
At this point, we don't have any physical evidence that would link Brian Dugan to Karen's case. But we also don't have a Karen's car or her body. As we've mentioned in past episodes, we will be looking at various bodies of water in the area that would possibly be along Karen's, you know, routes of travel as we just try to investigate this case further. So maybe that will provide some new information that could link Brian Dugan or somebody else in this case. For now, he is still a bit of a question mark in this case, but he is someone to keep in mind for our case and for other area coal cases with similar MOs here in Illinois between 1974 and 1985.
- [28:39]
Detective Andrew Houghton
In our next episode, we are changing up the order of our theories. Originally, we planned to move on to theory number four, that Karen made it home. But as with all police investigations, things can change. Our months long preparation to bring new technology and launch a massive search for Karen in area bodies of water is now becoming a reality in the next few weeks. So we're moving up our original theory number six, that Karen crashed her car into a body of water on her drive back to Elgin. Next episode we will take our listeners along as we identify the routes Karen could have taken, travel those routes and prepare to literally dive deeper into Karen's case. Here on Somebody Knows Something.
- [29:19]
Chief Anna Lally
If you or anyone you know has information about this case or any other cold case in Elgin, please contact the Elgin Police Department Cold case email@coldcasetipselgenil.gov or the cold case tip line at 847289. Cold. You can also review cold case information on the Elgin Police Department's Transparency Hub by going to elginil.gov and navigating to the Elgin Police Department's Transparency Hub, where every cold case, homicide and missing persons case is listed with photographs and information about each case.
- [30:05]
Detective Matt Vartanian
SA.