Episode 7: Bodies of Water

Summary

Summary of "Somebody Knows Something: Episode 7 - Bodies of Water"

Introduction

In the seventh episode of Somebody Knows Something, titled "Bodies of Water," Detectives Andrew Houghton and Matt Vartanian from the Elgin Police Department's Cold Case Unit delve deeper into the mysterious disappearance of 23-year-old Karen Shepers. Originally aired on March 17, 2025, this episode explores the compelling theory that Karen may have crashed her vehicle into a body of water, leveraging new technologies and revisiting old investigative avenues in an effort to uncover the truth.

Transition to a New Investigation Theory

The episode begins with Chief Anna Lally reaffirming the podcast's mission to revisit cold cases and engage the community in the quest for answers.

Chief Anna Lally [01:02]: "We believe that the Elgin Police Department and our community can work together to bring closure to cold cases because we know that in these cases, somebody knows something."

Detectives Houghton and Vartanian introduce the focus of the episode, explaining a significant shift in their investigative approach. Initially planning to revisit Karen's apartment and childhood home, they pivot towards an underwater search theory due to advancements in search technology.

Detective Matt Vartanian [02:59]: "We are prepping to take a really big step in this case that has been months in the making."

Background on Karen's Disappearance

Karen Shepers vanished on April 16, 1983, after a night out with co-workers at PM Bentley's Bar in Carpentersville, Elgin. Her canary yellow 1980 Toyota Celica, marked with an Illinois license plate XP8919, was found abandoned without any trace of Karen. Over the years, multiple theories have been proposed, but none have conclusively explained her disappearance.

The Bodies of Water Theory

Detectives present their final theory: Karen may have crashed her car into a nearby body of water, such as the Fox River or a local pond, especially considering the high flood levels recorded around the time of her disappearance.

Detective Matt Vartanian [02:59]: "Our final theory, which is theory number six, was that Karen crashed her car into a body of water."

They highlight the challenges of previous investigations, noting that earlier searches lacked the sophisticated sonar and diving technology now available. This episode marks the preparation phase for an extensive underwater search, leveraging updated technology to scour potential sites Karen may have accessed.

Preparation for the Underwater Search

The detectives discuss the meticulous preparation required for such a search. They emphasize the importance of validating past search efforts and ensuring that no stone is left unturned.

Detective Andrew Houghton [04:14]: "It's been months since we started this project, and we're now ready to dive in the coming weeks."

They cite a 1999 Canton County Chronicle article that claimed extensive aerial searches had been conducted, but Detective Vartanian expresses skepticism about the accuracy and thoroughness of those efforts.

Detective Matt Vartanian [04:15]: "We both believe that it is highly unlikely that this statement is accurate."

Investigation of Likely Routes

To identify potential crash sites, the detectives map out Karen's likely driving routes home. They identify two primary routes, A and B, and contemplate a third, Route C, based on historical maps and aerial photographs from the Sidwell Corporation, kindly provided by Russell after a referral from retired Detective Mike Nelson.

Detective Andrew Houghton [15:39]: "Sidwell Corporation was amazing... They have aerial photographs that cover this area."

Route A: Southbound on Route 25

Route A involves driving south on Route 25 from PM Bentley's Bar towards Karen's home. The detectives highlight specific landmarks and potential crash sites along this route, such as a small pond near Santa's Village.

Detective Matt Vartanian [18:10]: "So, back in the day there was maybe a little gravel turnabout or something... it's a potential spot."

They discuss environmental conditions from the time of Karen's disappearance, including high water levels in the Fox River due to flooding, which could have contributed to road hazards like concealed water on the roadway.

Route B: Southbound on Duncan Avenue

Route B takes them through a less illuminated Duncan Avenue, running parallel to the Fox River. This route presents several ponds and sections where the river closely borders the road, increasing the likelihood of a submerged vehicle going unnoticed.

Detective Matt Vartanian [25:22]: "It's very, very dark. There's almost no moon in the sky."

The detectives emphasize the river's depth and flow, noting that even a small submerged vehicle could evade detection due to sediment and water clarity issues.

Detective Andrew Houghton [28:29]: "It could have been in there pretty good, and nobody could see it."

Route C: Sunset Park Drive

While Routes A and B are deemed the most plausible, Route C—Sunset Park Drive—remains a secondary consideration. It involves a winding, slightly more secluded path through Max McGraw Wildlife Fund property. The detectives deem this route less likely due to its complexity and lower proximity to substantial bodies of water.

Detective Matt Vartanian [30:14]: "It's entirely possible that it could be in the river or in one of these bodies of water as we go south."

Field Investigation

In a practical demonstration, the detectives take listeners on a virtual drive along Routes A and B, pointing out relevant landmarks and potential crash sites.

Detective Andrew Houghton [16:47]: "This little pond is just south of the entry to Max McGraw."

They observe the current state of the roads, comparing them to historical photos to understand how surroundings may have changed, potentially obscuring evidence that once existed.

Community Tips and Leads

The episode underscores the importance of community involvement, sharing tips received from the public:

1. Vehicle Remnants on Google Earth: A tip led the detectives to search an area near Lake Marion Road, where two vehicles were found but neither matched Karen's Toyota.

   Detective Matt Vartanian [32:39]: "We found two different vehicles, but neither of them were Karen's."

2. Rumors of a Yellow Car During Dam Removal: Videos of yellow construction equipment were mistaken for Karen's car, but authorities confirmed no such vehicle was found in the Fox River.

   Detective Matt Vartanian [34:18]: "We can confirm that no vehicle was found."

3. Social Media Buzz About a Two-Door Car: Reports surfaced about a two-door vehicle resembling Karen's near the old Carpentersville dam. Upon inspection, the detectives determined it was not her Toyota Celica.

   Detective Andrew Houghton [35:55]: "We don't see anything that would indicate it's Karen's Toyota Celica."

These attempts highlight both the community's dedication and the challenges in verifying leads decades after the disappearance.

Conclusion and Future Plans

Detectives Houghton and Vartanian conclude the episode by emphasizing their readiness to embark on the planned underwater search using advanced sonar drones and divers. They express hope that this new approach may finally uncover Karen's fate after nearly 42 years.

Detective Matt Vartanian [36:55]: "Could this search be the last chapter in the decades-long search for Karen Shepers?"

The episode closes with Chief Anna Lally reiterating the call for community tips, urging anyone with information to reach out via email or phone, and directing listeners to the Elgin Police Department’s Transparency Hub for more details on cold cases.

Chief Anna Lally [37:39]: "If you or anyone you know has information about this case or any other cold case in Elgin, please contact the Elgin Police Department Cold Case Unit."

Key Takeaways

• Advancement in Technology: The Elgin Police Department is utilizing modern sonar and diving technology to search previously inaccessible areas.

• Environmental Factors: High water levels and adverse weather conditions at the time of Karen’s disappearance make the bodies of water theory plausible.

• Community Involvement: Ongoing tips from the public remain a critical component of cold case investigations.

• Thorough Investigation: Detectives are meticulously revisiting historical routes and leveraging historical aerial photographs to inform their search patterns.

• Hope for Closure: With renewed efforts and community support, there is hope that Karen Shepers' case will finally see resolution.

Looking Ahead

In the next episode, listeners will follow Detectives Houghton and Vartanian as they actively search the identified bodies of water, employing new technologies in their quest to find Karen and her car. This hands-on fieldwork promises to bring listeners closer to the investigative process and, potentially, the breakthrough needed to solve this enduring mystery.

Transcript

[Narrator]

This podcast is based on information sourced primarily from police and media reports, but certain names and other identifying details may have been changed or altered for privacy and security reasons. While the events and cases discussed are based on real investigations, some aspects may be simplified for time and for narrative purposes. Voice actors have been used to read from statements or documents. All information presented is intended solely to inform and raise awareness. Hosts may discuss theories regarding the cases examined in this podcast, but such discussions are not intended to and should not be considered by the listener to be legal. Conclusions all persons discussed are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Listener discretion is advised.

[Chief Anna Lally]

This is Chief Anna Lally. Welcome to Somebody Knows Something, a podcast from the Elgin Police Department's Cold Case Unit. In this podcast, we will shed new light on cold cases in the city of Elgin by sharing untold details and by encouraging anyone with information to come forward. You will come along with real cold case detectives as they investigate active cold cases in real time and seek justice for the victims and closure for their families. We believe that the Elgin Police Department and our community can work together to bring closure to cold cases because we know that in these cases, somebody knows something.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Welcome to Somebody Knows Something the Elgin Police Department Cold Case Podcast I'm Detective Andrew Houghton.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

And I'm Detective Matt Vartanian. This season we have been investigating the case of Karen Shepers, a pretty 23 year old woman who disappeared on April 16th of 1983 along with her canary yellow 1980 Toyota Celica with red accent stripes. In our last episode we considered the possibility that Karen left PM Bentley's and attempted to drive back to Elgin. We theorized that she could have come across someone on her drive and we talked about some of the active serial killers that were here in the area in the 1980s. For episode seven, we had originally planned to take you to Karen's apartment from 1983 and her childhood home. But as with any police investigation, things changed.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Our original theory number four was that Karen made it home. So we planned to visit her apartment, her childhood home, and meet with some of the people associated with those locations over episode seven and episode eight of this podcast. But as luck would have it, our months long plan to use new technology in our search for Karen sped up. So we're shifting gears and we're prepping to take a really big step in this case that has been months in the making.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

As we mentioned in our first episode, our final theory, which is theory number six, was that Karen crashed her car into a body of water. We've also mentioned that we have been planning to bring in Updated sonar technology and even divers to search for Karen and her car. Preparation for a search like this Is intense and time consuming. Plus, we also wanted to be sure that we were prepared and had the right conditions that were safe for this search. As it turns out, we are ready to dive in the coming weeks.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

That's right. So instead of heading To Karen's apartment Or her childhood home, we're pivoting and we're taking you along with us as we prepare to search and literally dive deep into theory number six, bodies of water.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

For this episode. Similar to theory number three, we will assume that Karen left the bar in her car and attempted to drive back to elgin. But for this theory, we will retrace the likely routes that karen would have taken to identify the areas we want to use this new technology for. Could Karen and her car still be submerged in a body of water Waiting to be found? Well, we'll plan to find out.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Maybe it'd be helpful to first explain to our listeners why we want to do this search and kind of how we went about the preparation for this project.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Matt.

Yeah, I agree. So there was an article from 1999 in the Canton county chronicle that we came across during our research which stated that police searched Several salvage yards by helicopter For Karen's car and dragged the river and even a quarry in a 50 mile radius, but the car was never found. The problem is there's no record to confirm Any searches Were even done beyond the aerial searches. And we both believe that it is highly unlikely that this statement is accurate. Even if it is, the newest technology, from what we've gathered, Is light years ahead of what police would have used Even five years ago. Right, Andrew?

Yep.

So bringing in a search company with the most up to date technology Is something that we felt was absolutely necessary in this investigation.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

The problem we found is we can't cross reference Our efforts With what was done 20, 30, or 40 years ago. When it comes to searching physical bodies of water. We did reach out, like matt said, to various people in law enforcement who worked this case in the 80s, retired law enforcement people, People like that, they remember the aerial searches, but there's nothing about any extensive dives or sonar or anything like that. There was one quarry that was reportedly searched In a different area south of elgin in the early 2000s, but that didn't turn up anything related to this case. As far as we can tell, There were no extensive dives or other technology used On Karen's possible routes of travel.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, because we don't have records to cross reference. We decided that the best course of action was to map the routes and just assume that nothing had been searched. Basically starting from scratch. Right this way we can document each body of water that we search and mark it so that we have a full record of everything that we have done on this case.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Matt, I think we should start by talking a little bit about Karen's actual car.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, I agree. As we've stated before, Karen's car was a canary yellow 1980 Toyota Celica with red accent stripes and it had an Illinois license plate of XP8919. We did some research on Karen's car and it is pretty small. It's a two door vehicle and is about 4 foot 3 inches tall, 5ft 4 inches wide and just under 14ft long. It also weighs approximately 2,400 pounds, give or take. To give people a comparison, one of the most popular cars in America in 2025 is the Toyota Camry. And that car is almost 4 inches taller, 8 inches wider, and 2ft longer than Karen's vehicle. Andrew, we should just add that people have asked about Karen's car and the possibility that it was junked or sold or whatever else possibly could have happened. Right. We want to confirm for the first time publicly that we actually have the original title for that car.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

That's right. For someone to at least like legally junk it or sell it or retitle it, they would have needed that hard copy original title. But it was recovered from Karen's belongings. So we can say that at least from a legal standpoint, it was never legally junked or sold or retitled. People like Terry had access to her apartment. So if he or someone else wanted to take it, they could have, but they didn't. Karen had just paid off the car, I believe in March of that year.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

And she just had it with all the rest of her belongings. So luckily we do have that original title.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Right. So if Karen drove her Toyota Celica from PM Bentley's back towards Elgin, or at least that's what we're assuming for this particular theory that we're looking at, we decided that there was a few variables that we needed to account for as we looked at this theory. The first thing that we wanted to look at was the actual road conditions and the water conditions that weekend. We spent hours going through microfilm of old newspapers for the time period and through digital different records as well, we came across some pretty compelling information from local newspapers for roughly the time frame of April 14 through April 16, right?

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

We did, yes. In several newspapers from the week leading up to Karen's disappearance, we learned that the Fox river was heavily flooded. In fact, on April 14, just a day before Karen went to PM Bentley's, the Fox river was at one of the highest recorded flood levels ever. You know, Matt, I grew up in a central Illinois town on a river. My dad and brother both work on the Illinois River. I spent summers working there too. I've seen a lot of flooding. And if the river is high, even bodies of water not attached to the river can be affected by that. Yeah, there's different water tables and things like that. So if the Fox river was above flood stage, then it's likely that other bodies of water, like local ponds, lakes, quarries, things like that, would have been at a high level too. More than likely, the water could have even been high enough that one of her routes had water on the roadway or that water was closer to the roadway than it normally would be under the normal conditions. It might not be a coincidence that Karen and her car both. Both disappeared the same week that water levels were at a historically high level in the same area where she was driving.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, Andrew, talking about water levels too, it's not inconceivable that there was water that was high enough to conceal a smaller car like Cairns, especially if it had flipped or crashed. For example, cars from the 1980s were heavy. They were basically all metal, not all different types of plastics and other materials like cars are made of today. A car, especially a heavy older car like that, would sink pretty quickly, we would think typically the engine would pull the car down knows first because it is the heaviest part of the car. And it's possible that Karen could have been knocked unconscious in a crash and trapped inside, especially if the car rolled or flipped before it went into the water.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah. And while research shows that the 1980 Toyota would have had shoulder strap seatbelts. Was she wearing her seatbelt? You know, maybe she wasn't. And even if she was, we know Toyota didn't start using airbags until 1989, so there's no airbag in Karen's car. Could she have crashed and been incapacitated? We certainly have to consider that possibility.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, Andrew, that's a great point. And while we don't know Karen's level of intoxication, she was at the bar for something right around seven hours or more. Is that right?

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

And the owner had told us that they didn't have a kitchen. So people are just there drinking and dancing and maybe I don't know, munching on pretzels, popcorn, nuts, or, you know, some other little bar food like that. Right. That's a long time that she was drinking throughout that time frame. While her co workers didn't describe her as falling down drunk, even if she had left a little buzzed, her reaction time to something like water on the roadway or maybe even a deer running out in front of her or some other obstruction, you know, could have definitely been delayed. And that could have made it even more plausible that a crash was more likely.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

The next thing we wanted to look at was the weather on the actual date that Karen went missing. So April 15 and April 16 were really cold days. The Daily Courier even called it, quote, unseasonably cold, end quote. We searched places like the national center for Environmental Information and local newspapers, and while we did not find any specific precipitation in the early morning hours of April 16, it was below freezing by 1am and there were gusts of wind reported too, somewhere between 6 and 12 miles an hour. Even a small amount of wind could theoretically blow water or debris onto the roadway under those frigid conditions, maybe cause water to blow on the roadway and freeze. So we feel like that could be important.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. And another thing we looked at was the different phases of the moon, which sounds kind of weird when you say it out loud, but we wanted to see how dark it would have been that night. There was a new moon phase on Tuesday, April 12, meaning that there was no moon in the sky that night. Friday into Saturday. So April 15 into April 16, there was what was called a waxing crescent moon. Depending on what resource you look at, approximately 10% of the moon was illuminated around 1am on April 16. So it would have been a nearly moonless night.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

So it would have been pretty dark, especially if there was, you know, cloud cover in the sky.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, pretty dark. Even on a cloudless night, there would have been a lot less light pollution from the suburban area back in 1983 versus today. Elgin is almost 116,000 people. Now, back in 1980, it was about half that, or maybe just around 60,000 from what we can gather. And Carpentersville was closer to about 20,000. Not nearly the 40,000 people that it has today. In fact, the whole area where Karen would have been driving was a lot more rural looking, with fields and trees, you know, cornfields, I guess, would be another way to put it. You know, many of the places where there are actual businesses or residences today.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Well, Matt, I think we can safely say it was dark, it was cold, it was windy, it was potentially slick. And that's all overnight on April 16th of 83 when Karen potentially leaves the bar. We also know the Fox river and other bodies of water in the area were at historically high levels. So all those factors could be really significant. This theory seems like a very plausible one, so we're going to take a really detailed look into it.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Okay. Now that we have an understanding of the weather and lighting and potential road conditions, we want to identify and recreate the likely routes that Karen would have taken if she did leave the bar to go back to the Elgin area. Most of the main roads from 1983 are still in existence, but we know that street lights, trees, fences, buildings, water levels and even entire bodies of water would have been very different 40 plus years ago.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah, that's right. And for us to look at the state of roadways and streetlights and other topography and make it like an apples to apples comparison, that would be really foolish. The routes now are not identical to how they were then. So we decided we need to take on the task of figuring out how to look at maps and roads from 40 years ago. Plus we also wanted to see what bodies of water actually existed in 1983 because some of those bodies of water don't exist now. There's different recovery retention ponds and things like that that didn't exist in 83. So obviously we don't want to waste our time looking at a body of water that wasn't even there when Karen disappeared.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, I would agree. And this is where a retired detective from out prospect, retired detective Mike Nelson, really helped us out. Mike worked on the Barbara Gluer case back in the mid 2000s. Barbara was a 14 year old girl who disappeared in 1976 and she might have some links to Karen's case that we are going to talk about in another episode. Anyway, we met with Mike to kind of look over any potential leaks between Karen's case, you know, and her disappearance in Barbara's case. And Mike told us about a company called Sidwell Corporation which is located just down the road in St. Charles. They have aerial photographs that cover this area. So with his suggestion, we contacted them to see if they could be of any help.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah, I have to say Sidwell Corporation was amazing. I want to personally thank Russell from Sidwell Corporation for diligently searching through all the maps they had from basically 1980 to 1983 and helping us get our hands on the detailed copies of photographs from the area around PM Bentley's and Carpentersville and Elgin for that time period. He was also able to get us those copies in just a couple days. The company and Russell specifically have been really instrumental in helping us prepare for this upcoming search. And we wouldn't have even known about them if it had been for Mike. So we want to make sure we thank him, too.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. And after looking at all the photographs and doing some additional research, we settled on two main routes that make logistical sense here. Let's get into those routes.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Okay, so if you look at a map and like the aerial photos of the area, Carpentersville is basically just north of Elgin, with East Dundee kind of sandwiched in between. Roughly speaking, Interstate 90 runs from Chicago in the east of Elgin all the way west to Rockford, and it passes through the northern portion of Elgin, crossing over the Fox river between Illinois Route 25 on the east side of the river and Illinois Route 31 on the west. The Fox river kind of meanders through Carpentersville and then goes south through East Dundee and then into Elgin as it continues south through the Fox Valley area. Our listeners will remember that PM Bentley's is in Carpentersville, just about five miles north of Karen's house in Elgin. Terry's house is just a few minutes further south in Elgin from Karen's place. What's really important is that all three locations are on the east side of the Fox River.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, that's correct. They are all on the east side. So it doesn't make a lot of sense for Karen to cross the river at any point on her ride home, but she certainly could have driven along it. And there are a number of bodies of water in that area. So we wanted to take a look at the most plausible routes to identify the areas that we wanted to search for Karen.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

All right, Matt, I think it's time for us to go for a drive.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Sounds good.

All right, so we are at PM Bentley's. It is about 1 o'clock, just a little before 1am and we're up here. We picked the day two days after the new moon. So it's the same moon phase as Karen's day. She would have went missing. No, we're sitting here. It's pulling out a lot now.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

But we were right.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Where about Karen's car would have been parked, you know, third row or so. Right, Matt?

Yep.

Obviously, dark street lights are going to be better now than they were then. But we're going to go Route A here, and Route A is going to be southbound on Route 25 from PM Bentley's. And so that's where we're heading now.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah. So as we travel and you know, Andrew, there's one, you know, body of water up here that kind of has always stuck out to us. So as you just go past 72, continuing to go south on 25, you're going to come across Santa's Village. And you know, we've always looked at there's a little body of water on the right hand side right after the intersection. Now there's a Dunkin Donuts Baskin Robin. So right behind that, you know, and on a lower elevation than what is the roadway now, there's a body of water there. It looks to be a little pond. So we've always thought as a theory, you know, if something had happened, if she's in a body of water somewhere with her car, that could be a potential spot, right?

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, for sure. It looks like back in the, back.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

In the day there, there was maybe.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

A little gravel turnabout or something or maybe a little building, but it was definitely here. And it would have been just to the southwest of the intersection of Higgins, which is 72 and 25.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah. And the other thing that, you know, we've noticed too while we're driving, driving this is, you know, there are street lights that are here nowadays, but there's not a ton. You know, it's not like you're driving on i90 and there's a street light every, you know, certain amount of feet or whatever. So we wonder how dark it was. You know, we've heard from Frank, you know, and some others that this was a four lane road back in the day. So you know, we would assume that's still what it is. But I mean, we're going right by the pond right now and it's certainly, it's right there.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

It's probably 20ft from the roadway.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah, it's pretty close. Yeah. So as we continue, continue on route A here, we pass a bunch of used car dealerships that are here now.

This was all cornfields.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Back in the day it was not that way. And as we continue to go down here, we pass by the Max McGraw Wildlife property that runs along almost all of the west side of 25 and then a little bit of the east side up as you get closer to I90, there's several bodies of water obviously on the Duncan side that we are interested in, but there's a few here that we'd like to talk about too.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Right? Yeah, that's going to be route B is our Duncan route, this Route A, there's a little pond here on our right hand side on the east side of the roadway that looks like just.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

A little spillway kind of pond.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Doesn't look like it's very deep. We may take a look at it with the dive team in the future here.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

And then on the.

That one would be on the west side.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

I'm sorry. Yeah, on the west side here on the east side of the roadway is a pretty large lake, but it's pretty far back, Matt. I mean, it's.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

A couple hundred feet back from the roadway Through a lot of tree cover.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

You know, if you go with the theory that she's driving southbound and if this was a four lane road, she would have to cross both lanes of southbound traffic, the northbound lanes, and then go through possibly a fence or, you know, some trees and other, you know, foliage or anything else, and then go down into the body of water.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, there. There it is there.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Seems kind of unlikely. Not to say that it couldn't happen.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

This little pond is just south of the entry to Max mcgraw. But it's pretty small. I mean, we'll. Like I said, we'll take a look.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

At it on the west side of.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

The roadway here, but that's pretty much it. I mean, we're almost i90 now, and there's really nothing else between here and Karen's house. We would just take 25 south, continuing to a bunch of different roads that would cut over to level. But 25 hits Slade and Lincoln and, you know, a couple other. Other streets that you could take and just cut right over to Karen's house. Was it about what, five miles? Yeah, just under five miles, I believe so. Just around five miles south. And then it's about a half a mile west of here to get to Karen's house. So we're turning on level here now. Karen's house is just a couple blocks down from where we're at now. I can see it up on the left. It's the south side of the roadway. It's a blue house in the 300 block. It's about a 10 minute drive, total drive time, Nothing crazy. Pretty basic roadway, you know, fairly well lit concrete roadway, Major, major thoroughfare. So that's pretty much route A in a nutshell. And we're gonna have to head back up to do our route B drive, which I think is the more interesting and, you know, more complicated route for us to talk about.

Okay, so after we checked out route A, we wanted to do the same with the second route, which we identified as route B. So under the same conditions, we drove back up to PM Bentley and left a Second time taking Route B.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Okay. So we are back up at the bar where we're at PM Bentley's. So after we checked out Route A, which was Route 25 in Elgin, we wanted to do the same thing with route number two, the second route, you know, that we had identified, which we will call Route B. So under the same condition conditions, we drove back and obviously we are just leaving PM Bentley's now and then we're gonna travel along the second route, which is Route B, just to kind of get a feel for what might have happened on Route B. Yeah.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

So again we're going to turn south on 25. We kind of have two options. We can take 68 over and hit back down to 72, or we can take 72 over, but you're basically gonna think 25 and then make your way back west. We're taking 72, so we're gonna go buy that Santa's village pond again that we saw on Route A. And then we can take Higgins here, basically right into downtown East Dundee.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

And as you get close East Dundee downtown area, you can make your way down to a street called Elgin Avenue, just kind of cut through to the south and that runs in turns into Duncan Avenue, which basically what runs right along the Fox river, right?

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

From downtown East Dundee all the way down to just north at Karen's house. That dumps you out in her neighborhood.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah. You know, the first thing that sticks out here is this is a two lane road. There's very little street lights. It's very, very dark. I mean, even compared to Route A, you know, with just. It was, it was dark on certain points. This is very, very dark. You know, there's certain points where the river, which would be on our west side, our right side, as we're going south into Elgin, comes up pretty close. Right, Andrew, to the road.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. We, we found two different spots as you're traveling southbound. One closer to East Dundee. That's a. Just under 100ft right now under these conditions from the roadway to the riverbank. And we know the river's lower now than it was then with the dams coming down.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

And we know the river was high.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yes.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

With Karen went missing.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yep. Yeah. We continue to go southbound on Route B here and there are. I mean, once you get away from, you know, the populated area, there's nothing. There's no street lights, it's very dark. There's really only a couple guardrails. You know, the thing to mention too is, you know, with cars nowadays, obviously the technology is a Lot better than the cars in the 1980s. You know, the lights are brighter. And even with the lights that we have now, I mean, it's still very, very dark, even with the brights on. Very, very heavily wooded on both sides.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. And with this phase of the moon, I mean, it's dark, there's almost no moon in the sky. It's a little cloud cover covered right now. We don't know what we would have seen then. Probably some cloud cover. I was windy and cold, you know, her day that she went missing. But it's, it's really dark back in here. Taking Duncan.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah. And as we are continuing to go southbound on Route B, you know, we want to mention that coming up on our left hand side, there is a pretty significant body water that we'd like to talk about. Right, Andrew?

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. So Max McGraw Wildlife Fund owns a bunch of property here. They basically own from here all the way over to route A, all the way over to Route 25. And there is a pond that runs that pull up to it now.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

It's less than 30ft, 40ft from the roadway to the edge of the water. And this pond runs a full quarter mile along the roadway. You can see, I mean, there's a couple spots here where it's just fence and that's it. And we talked to somebody that said there wasn't a fence here, right, Matt?

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah, that's correct.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

We know back in early 80s, multiple people we've talked to have said this would be a normal route that people would take to kind of cut through and get up to Dundee.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Right.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

But it was kind of a known route for people in the neighborhood where Karen lived. So it's entirely possible that she could take this route. And I mean, I'm still a. I could see the water from, you know, the driver's seat here. Just on the other side of this little fence. There's almost no brush even between here and the water.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah. As you continue to go south on Duncan Avenue, I mean the river comes close to the roadway. Again up on the right hand side on the west side here.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, I think this is the second site that we looked at. That's right around 90ft. 90 to 100ft from the roadway to the river just north of I90.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

And there's not a lot of coverage here. Like there's some small brush and stuff like that, but it's not that far from the river. I think it's entirely possible that given how high the water was, that there could have been water close to the roadway. You know, maybe there's even water on the roadway, Matt.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

We don't know.

Yeah. What do we know about the depth of the river?

So we reached out to a bunch.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Of people through DNR and different sources and finally settled with some people at the city of Elgin, actually, because the dams are coming down, they're doing different studies on the depths of the river. So we've had people contact us and have said there's just no way. The river is just too shallow for that.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Right, right.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

But I know he told us that that's just not the case. I'm going to turn in here on Trout Park Boulevard. There's, like a little boat ramp and stuff here, but.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah. So from what we've gathered after speaking with people from the city, so from the city of Elgin, the Kimball Street Dam to about Lincoln avenue is roughly 7ft to 8ft in depth. Around, you know, around that point at Lincoln Avenue, it drops to 4 to 5ft, then it opens back up to 6 to 8ft up to the water treatment plant. The, the bend around the river, you know, which is right at, like, the water treatment plant, is the deepest part, which would be between the Carpentersville Bridge and the Elgin Dam. You know, Karen could have gone into the river, you know, right around I90, you know, when it was at the highest point, you know, it had ever been. So it's not unreasonable to think, you know, that if the car did go in there, you know, it could have. Could have been in there pretty good, you know, and nobody could see it.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, the river kind of runs from where we're at right now, just north of I90 where we can see the river. It's about a quarter mile from here to that bend. So the river runs south from here, where we're at, and it cuts a little bit to the west and bends and then comes back south again.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Right.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

That bend, they're telling us, is like upwards of around 8ft, maybe more than 8ft. So, you know, if she makes it into the channel, it's. They said it's a pretty fast moving river, like deceivingly fast.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

It could have been pushed. Yeah. Especially at flood stage. You know, if she makes it in the channel or makes it in the river, like, it could pull her out a little ways and, you know, she could be within spinning distance where we're sitting, basically.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yes.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

And under four, five, six feet of water. You know, we talked earlier in the. In this episode about the specs of her car. You know, if her car is only about 4ft tall. If it lands either upside down or on its wheels in eight feet of water, we don't know the bottom of the river, what sediment looks like, stuff like that. If it sinks a foot, it could be under 6ft of water, you know, 5ft of water, just depending on where it's at.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

So, yeah, people think, you know, we've gotten some comments from people that you would be able to see a bright yellow, a canary yellow car in the river. And I don't know about you, I mean, I've swam in the Fox river before for. And it's very, very hard, you know, because of all the sediments. It just, the water seems to be dirty. You know, it's not necessarily. That's the case, but it's hard to be able to visually see that. So I think it's very possible that if really a car of any color goes in the river, it's going to be hard to see it, you know, unless you really know where to look.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah, we don't know how it landed. I mean, if we're theorizing the cars in the river, it could land on its side, it could land on its top. If it landed on its top, you basically have a what, gray bottom?

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah, you know, a metal colored. Right.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

And if it goes through debris, like you could have debris attached to the bottom of the car as it goes into the water. I mean, you could have sticks and grass and all this different stuff attached to the car as it goes in the water too. Like it's, it's entirely possible. I think it's at least a plausible option that it could be in the river or in one of these bodies of water as we go south.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah, I agree.

Okay, so we feel pretty good about our two routes, Route A and Route B. There is another option that we're kind of calling Route C, which is sandwiched in between Route A and Route B. And it runs through the Max McGraw Wildlife Fund property. It was there in 83 and it was an open roadway called Sunset Park Drive. It's now a private roadway owned by Max McGraw. So she theoretically could have taken Route A south and turned through the Max McGraw property to get over to Duncan. It's a pretty winding road, but we did want to add it to our search parameters. So we're calling that Route C. It certainly is a possibility, but we don't think it's that likely just because it is really windy. It would have been a mix of asphalt, possibly asphalt and gravel back then. And there are some bodies of water kind of close to it, but not close enough that we feel like it's really, really viable. We just want to mention that it's something that we want to talk about, too.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

We heard from a lot of people that people would take that as a cut through to get up to Carpersville, things like that. And so we drove it with some people from Max McGraw this week. There's really not a lot of bodies of water that are close to it that would make sense. And it would have been a pretty windy, out of the way kind of road for Karen to take. But we did want to mention it because some bodies of water on that property are things we may need to expand into our search.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah. It seems like you wouldn't have gone fast enough to possibly go off the road because of how windy it was. Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

And there was really no water that was deep enough close to the road where you would be able to conceal a car.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yeah.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

So essentially we have Route A on 25, Route B on Duncan, and kind of this Route C that's sandwiched in between. But we feel like Route B is probably our biggest water search area.

Right.

And Route A is also going to.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Be on our radar.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

For the last portion of this episode, we want to discuss a few tips that have come in regarding cars that people thought could have been Karen's Toyota. We have three different tips that we.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Want to talk about.

That's right. The first tip came in last summer shortly before we publicized the existence of this cold case unit and this podcast. It really goes to show that even without any media about this case, we were still getting tips periodically from people in the community who are interested in Karen's case. A tipster called both the Kane County Forest Preserve police and the Elgin Police Department to report that she had found remnants of a vehicle that were visible on Google Earth. The vehicle was south of Lake Marion Road, near a marshy area off the roadway and some pretty heavy brush. We both went up there and trudged out into the forest to find the vehicle. And the forest preserve police also searched the area. We found two different vehicles, but neither of them were Karen's. But this just goes to show that the community is still invested in this case, and we do truly appreciate the tip and others that have come in. We are hoping that your tips will help break this case open and finally bring Karen home.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Another report came in more recently about a yellow car in the Fox River. A number of the dams on the river have been or are currently being removed. That includes a dam in Carpentersville that was removed Back in the fall of 2024, as these various dams have been dismantled, the water levels have really fluctuated quite a bit in some of those areas. And there's been some reports on social media that a yellow car was seen on video as crews were removing that dam in Carpentersville. We reached out to the Kane County Forest Preserve Police Department and we can debunk this rumor. There were some time lapse videos of crews removing the dam and they were using a lot of yellow construction equipment. So maybe that's where this information originated from. But we can confirm that no vehicle was found.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

We did, however, get a third tip. There has been a lot of social media buzz about a two door car on the east side of the Fox river north of the old Carpentersville dam. The car is an older model two door vehicle and Karen's vehicle is also a two door vehicle. While the vehicle is north of the routes that we identified for Karen, we decided that it was worth taking a trip up there the area and wanted to actually see the vehicle firsthand. Our producer Ben came along for the ride. So we're out here on the east bank of the Fox river in Carpentersville. We had received some information yesterday from the Kane County Forest Preserve Police about a vehicle that was cited by a Facebook group called Friends of the Fox River. So they alerted us that they had located the car here. So we're out here looking at the vehicle. You know what's interesting, Andrew, is this is a two door vehicle, just like what Karen drove. But from what we can gather, it looks to be different.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Yeah, the front window's got like one of those vent windows and then it's probably similar size, maybe a little bit longer. But the back window is not the same either. I can't tell the maker model. Too rusted. Yeah, it looks like it was a lighter color maybe, but I don't see trying to fall in the river here.

Yeah, good.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Yep. Interesting.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Across from this island.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Hell, the water.

[Detective Andrew Houghton]

Levels really drop since they killed that dam. While it will take us a few more months to 100% identify the car from the river, we're pretty confident it's not Karen's car. Just based on the frame, the size, the windows, it does not look like a Toyota Celica. But Karen could still be waiting to be found somewhere in the depths of the Fox river or in a nearby pond or lake. We're hoping a more thorough search with this new technology in the coming weeks will lead us to a new vehicle, Karen's missing Toyota Celica, and maybe even lead us to her.

[Detective Matt Vartanian]

Next episode on Somebody Knows Something. We will be out again in the field, this time searching for Karen and her car and we will take listeners along with us as we are searching multiple bodies of water, including the Fox river and other areas for Karen and her car. We will be using boats, sonar drones and even divers. After almost 42 years, will we finally find Karen's final resting place using this new technology? Could this search be the last chapter in the decades long search for Karen sheepers? Find out next time here on Somebody Knows Something.

[Chief Anna Lally]

If you or anyone you know has information about this case or any other cold case in Elgin, please contact the Elgin Police Department Cold case [e-mail] or the cold case tip line at 847289. Cold. You can also review cold case information on the Elgin Police Department's Transparency Hub by going to elginil.gov and navigating to the Elgin Police Department's Transparency Hub, where every cold case, homicide and missing persons case is listed with photographs and information about each case.