Introducing: Hunting the Suicide Salesman

Summary

Someone Knows Something – Special Episode: Introducing "Hunting the Suicide Salesman"

Podcast by CBC | Host: Damon Fairless | Release Date: June 3, 2026
First episode of "Hunting the Suicide Salesman"

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Episode Overview

This episode introduces "Hunting the Suicide Salesman," a hard-hitting investigative project led by journalist Damon Fairless. The series explores the dark side of the Internet, focusing on online communities that encourage and enable suicide—specifically, how one Canadian man, Kenneth Law, is suspected of aiding over 100 suicides worldwide by facilitating access to lethal substances. Fairless grounds this difficult subject in real, personal stories, and examines both the human toll and the ethical dilemmas faced by families, police, and those struggling with suicidal thoughts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening the Case: An Online Epidemic [00:41]

• Damon Fairless introduces himself and the premise: his experience in dark corners of the Internet previously with "Hunting Warhead," now turning to the online suicide communities.
• Highlights Kenneth Law’s suspected involvement in enabling numerous suicides globally.

2. The Aftermath of Loss: Joe’s Story [02:10–24:52]

• Damon visits Catherine and Melanie in northern England, whose family was devastated by Joe’s suicide in April 2020.
• Using evidence bags, handwritten letters, and forensic details, the family recounts the days leading up to Joe's death.
  • Quote (Joe’s letter, read by Melanie) [03:06]:

    “This has been planned for a while now. I know it’s selfish, but I had no choice... I love you all so much. I’m truly sorry.” — Joe’s final note

Details of the Day Joe Died [06:12–10:13]

• Vividly describes the moment Catherine discovers Joe, the police and emergency services response, and discovery of sodium nitrite as the method.
• Melanie’s role in piecing together Joe’s steps via searching online for sodium nitrite and landing on a pro-suicide forum.

How the Internet Provided Deadly Means [11:12–20:43]

• Sodium nitrite’s typical use as food preservative; when purchased in high concentrations, it can be lethal.

• Joe finds online instructions and community encouragement on how to use it, with links to specific suppliers and step-by-step manuals.

• Quote [21:13]:

  “Towards the end of that message, there was a link to a 3300-word instruction manual detailing exactly how to use it.” — Damon Fairless

• The forum is described as a grim kind of bus stop, where people wait together, encouraging each other to "catch the bus" (slang for suicide).

• Joe’s final requests include a plea for the site to be shut down, included in his note to police.

Coroner's Inquest and Systemic Response [23:04–24:52]

• The coroner raises concerns about online suicide facilitation and calls for website blocking in the UK.

3. The Experience of Those Who Survived: Tina’s Story [25:52–44:41]

• Tina (pseudonym), a survivor, recounts her decades-long struggle with depression and her experience joining the same suicide forum after reading about other victims.
• Tina details the seductive nature of the site: at first comforting, but ultimately isolating, desensitizing, and disturbing due to normalization of suicide and explicit instructions.
  • Quote [29:08]:

    “It was really weird to find such information so easily... so detailed, so graphic. It’s things you can’t unsee.” — Tina

A Community That Discourages Help [30:25–33:41]

• The forum’s ethos: don’t intervene, simply wish those attempting suicide “safe travels.”
• Tina’s internal conflict and sense of guilt at having participated in farewells without intervening.
  • Quote [34:26]:

    “It kind of was almost like an addiction for me... I needed to know there were other people like me.” — Tina

How Lethal Means are Linked to Real People: The Hunt for “Greenberg” [36:13–38:03]

• Tina receives a direct message from “Greenberg,” a supposed expert user who directs her to an external site selling pure sodium nitrite.
• Tina nearly goes through with her plan, but Catherine and Melanie intervene and alert police just in time. The police confiscate the substance before she can use it.
  • Quote [41:05]:

    “Honestly, I felt quite angry. Well, not angry, but I felt betrayed... I just felt so betrayed and so hurt that she’d done that.” — Tina, after her suicide attempt is disrupted

4. Ethics: Intervention and Autonomy [41:31–43:19]

• Catherine and Melanie describe their philosophy—intervening because “it was a temporary crisis.”

• Damon notes evidence that the majority prevented from suicide later feel grateful, as mental distress warps decision-making.

  • Quote [42:06]:

    “It was a temporary crisis and with a bit of time, you can get there. And I can’t sit and know that somebody’s doing it if I know where they are and not try.” — Catherine

• Tina eventually expresses gratitude for the intervention, particularly after real support became available.

5. The Global Investigation: Connecting the Dots [44:41–End]

• Police around the globe realize the problem is systemic and connected via suppliers (like “Greenberg” and Kenneth Law) and the forum.

• People all over the world are being visited by police after ordering sodium nitrite.

  • Quote [45:01]:

    “I had detectives come to my door as well, and then I gave a statement to the police and any evidence I had.” — Tina

• Discussion of the wider implications: the ease of deadly means, the Internet’s capacity to both support and harm, and the legal as well as ethical responsibilities of those who facilitate suicide.

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• [03:06, Joe’s note]:

  “I know it’s selfish of me... I just got tired of fighting and trying to act normal. I love you all so much.”

• [21:43, forum slang]:

  “Catch the bus is how users refer to suicide. It sounds flippant and it is, but there’s more to it.”

• [29:08, Tina]:

  “The level of detail... they give you on any different method that you want... things you can’t unsee.”

• [32:41, “goodbye threads”]:

  “Are you sure about it? You can still call for an ambulance. It’s your choice.”

• [42:06, Catherine]:

  “It was a temporary crisis and with a bit of time, you can get there... I can’t sit and know that somebody’s doing it if I know where they are and not try.”

• [44:12, Tina’s message]:

  “The only thing I can say is just keep looking for help. Keep asking. Because it does come, the help does come.”

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Timestamps to Key Segments

• 00:41 — Damon’s introduction, “the hunt for those aiding [suicide]”
• 03:06 — Joe’s final note, read aloud
• 07:10–08:42 — Description of the morning Joe was found and the alarming specifics
• 11:12–13:13 — Discovery and sale of sodium nitrite
• 17:38–19:00 — Catherine and Melanie discuss Joe’s mental health care and suicidal ideation
• 21:43–22:45 — Details of the suicide forum, “catching the bus,” and its influence
• 23:04–24:52 — Coroner’s inquest and aftermath
• 25:52–33:41 — Tina’s story, experiences on the forum, and internal conflict
• 34:58–38:03 — Tina’s attempt and Catherine/Melanie’s intervention
• 41:31–42:06 — Discussion of intervention philosophy
• 44:41–45:48 — International police investigation and the “Suicide Salesman”

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Tone & Style

The episode is raw, unflinching, and empathetic—balancing journalistic detachment with emotional immediacy. Damon Fairless, Catherine, Melanie, and the testimonial voices speak candidly and plainly, making the risk and reality of online suicide culture painfully clear.

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Conclusion

"Hunting the Suicide Salesman" is a brave, disturbing, and necessary examination of how online communities and unscrupulous suppliers intersect with mental illness, resulting in tragedy for families like Joe’s. This episode not only puts a human face on systemic failure but also explores the questions of responsibility: What leads someone to help or hinder, to act or stand by, when lives hang in the balance? The investigation continues in the subsequent episodes.

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If you or someone you know is struggling, resources are available at CBC.ca/Hunting.

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For more, listen to subsequent episodes of "Hunting the Suicide Salesman," and explore Damon Fairless’s previous investigation: "Hunting Warhead."

Transcript

[Damon Fairless]

Okay, caller one wins courtside seats to tonight's game. What? I won floor seats. You did? I've been calling for 13 months. Wait. Chris. Yes. I finally did it. What are you gonna wear? Men's Wearhouse. They've got today's looks for any occasion. And I need to look like a celebrity. Don't wanna stick out. Exactly. They've got Chill Flex by Kenneth Cole, Joseph Abboud, and a tailor at every store for the perfect fit. Congrats. You can stop calling now. Not a chance. Hit any look for every occasion at Men's Wearhouse. Love the way you look. This is a CBC podcast. Where do desperate people go when they can't find the help they need in the real world? I'm Damon Fairless. I'm an investigative journalist, a writer, and host of Hunting Warhead, a podcast that followed an international team of police officers tracking down the people behind a massive child abuse site on the Dark Web. We're back with a new investigation into another dark corner of the Internet. An online world helping people take their own lives. A few years ago, people around the globe started killing themselves with a substance so obscure, almost no one knew about it. And it took years before the police understood there was something, someone tying many of these deaths together. That someone is a Canadian man named Kenneth Law. Police suspect he's connected to more than 100 suicides around the world. This is the story of people desperate to end their own lives. People who are precariously close to the edge. And it's the hunt for those aiding them, perhaps pushing them to take that final leap. Now here's the first episode of Hunting the Suicide Salesman. Are these the evidence bags that they were in?

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Damon Fairless]

Are you guys comfortable talking about that stuff or reading them or.

[Melanie]

Yep. Yeah.

[Damon Fairless]

I'm at a cluttered dining room table in northern England. There are papers everywhere, stacks of file folders, empty teacups, and an ashtray full of spent cigarettes. It's not much of a dining room. Not anymore. What it is now is a makeshift war room. Are these different drafts or like, each separate?

[Melanie]

Each. Separate.

[Damon Fairless]

Okay, so you left three of them?

[Catherine]

Yeah, he left two to me and one to all of us.

[Damon Fairless]

That's Catherine. Catherine's showing me three handwritten letters. Bush bearer's son, Joe. Each in a clear plastic bag.

[Melanie]

This was in the envelope on the sofa, along with this one and the one for the police in a separate envelope.

[Damon Fairless]

Catherine's here with Melanie, her daughter in law. Melanie's married to Joe's eldest brother.

[Melanie]

So there's the one that he left for us all. This has been planned for a while now. And I know it's selfish of me to do this, but I had no choice. I know I'll never get better with what's going on in my head. This isn't your fault. You are all amazing and did everything you could for me. I just got tired of fighting and trying to act normal. I love you all so much. I hope you do forgive me. I really do. I'm truly sorry. I'm sorry I'm not as strong as you all and I'm sorry I've let you down. Give the kids a big kiss and a hug from me. I love you all so much. I mean that. I'm sorry. Lots of love, Jim.

[Damon Fairless]

This is the story of a deadly corner of the Internet. At least that's how it started. But really, it's a series about suicide. So depending on how you're feeling, this might not be what you want to listen to right now. Especially if you tend to struggle with depression or suicidal thoughts. Thoughts, I get it. These are things I've dealt with from time to time. So have a lot of people in this series. So do a lot of people, period. Suicide is one of the leading causes of death worldwide. But for all our efforts trying to destigmatize mental health issues, it's still not something we talk about. Not really. Not directly. Honestly, unflinchingly. So why not? One of the reasons journalists don't cover it in much detail is because we're afraid. What if we do more harm than good? That's something I've been wrestling with a lot. But not talking about suicide, really talking about it, that's risky, too. It can push us towards dark places and dangerous people. Suicide is not an issue you can tackle without taking some kind of risk. And I'm going to be talking about it more openly than what's traditionally recommended. But I'm not going to warn you away. That's not what this is. It's not a trigger warning. This is an invitation to a difficult conversation. And I'm hoping you'll choose to stick around.

[Catherine]

It was like that morning, Damon. It was awful. It was awful. It was like a crime scene.

[Melanie]

Yeah.

[Damon Fairless]

Can you go back to that morning and, you know, tell me what you remember. Tell me what you want to. That. You don't have to go into details if you don't feel comfortable, but tell me what you remember.

[Catherine]

It was the same kind of setup as this one at the stairs. Yeah.

[Damon Fairless]

Catherine's talking about the morning of April 4, 2020. Her son Joe was living with her then in a house Katherine's moved out of since he'd come home again after being out on his own for a few months. Catherine woke up just before 8:30. She came down the stairs and she noticed the living room door was open slightly. She could hear music playing softly. She and Joe had been watching Grey's Anatomy on the couch until about midnight. He said he was going to stay up and watch a movie and Catherine went to bed. She assumed he'd fallen asleep with the TV on.

[Catherine]

I came down as I was going in to make a coffee, I shouted, yo, you up? Nothing. Think I made a coffee, left it in the kitchen, started going and get him and I just opened the door and I just remember that music.

[Damon Fairless]

It wasn't the tv, it was Joe's phone. He left a song playing on an endless loop.

[Catherine]

And I looked and there he was.

[Melanie]

My phone rang and Catherine was just screaming down the phone at me, he's dead, he's dead, Joe's dead, he's dead. And that's all she was saying. I just remember blasting the car around the corners and I got there and I ran up the driveway. Catherine was in the hall by the front door, crying, screaming. I walked into the living room and I saw Joe on the sofa. His fingertips had gone blue and the tip of his nose was blue as well. And I remember I put my hand onto his hand and yeah,

[Damon Fairless]

On the floor near Joe, there was an empty glass sitting on a sheet of paper. And on it, in big block letters, a warning.

[Melanie]

Don't touch the glass. Don't touch me. Call the police.

[Damon Fairless]

Then Melanie noticed the stack of notes on the arm of the sofa. Three of them were for the family and a fourth in an envelope addressed to the police, along with the remains of a small bag of white granular powder.

[Melanie]

And with that, two police officers turned up And I led them in and they said, right, we need to evacuate the house. And I said, what do we need to evacuate the house for? I was probably a bit shitty with them, really thinking, why have we all got to get out of the house? There's no need. Because they didn't know how he had died. They had to make sure that nobody else was at harm or there was any risk to anybody else in the area because more police just kept coming. And then the fire brigade turned up, paramedics turned up. And all in all, I think there were seven police cars, two fire engines, two paramedics and this big appliance vehicle turned up about 45 minutes later. Next minute, the glasses. I could see this officer carrying the glasses.

[Damon Fairless]

Joe had actually left two glasses, the empty one on the sheet of paper with the warning and another one partly full of a clear liquid.

[Melanie]

I said, what are they doing with them? We need to test them. Test them for what? For what he's taken.

[Damon Fairless]

One of the vehicles that had shown up was a mobile lab.

[Melanie]

So they tested the glasses and said, it's sodium nitrite. I remember thinking, what is it? What is sodium nitrite and how does it kill somebody?

[Damon Fairless]

Melanie's immediately on Google.

[Melanie]

And then I came across some sort of medical document. I think it was some sort of research or something like that. It was. Actually had pictures on it and it was explaining the effects of sodium nitrite toxicity.

[Damon Fairless]

There were post mortem photos, pictures of bodies with bluish skin like Joe's.

[Melanie]

It was just blowing my mind, working it out, thinking, what is this? And nothing was becoming clear as to what its actual intended use was.

[Damon Fairless]

Sodium nitrite's intended use is as a food preservative. It's used in low concentrations to cure meat and prevent botulism, and more rarely, as a cure for cyanide poisoning. But the stuff Melanie was seeing online was being sold at extremely high concentrations, over 99.9% pure.

[Melanie]

I searched on the Internet, how do you kill yourself with sodium nitrite? And it just kept bringing up this site.

[Damon Fairless]

A site that came up with a simple Google search. Nothing. Tucked away on the dark web. A simple web form like Reddit, but devoted entirely to suicide.

[Melanie]

It was probably less than 12 hours after Joe had been found that I found it. I think the more I went on it over the. The rest of that day, because I kept coming back. There was just something luring me back to it every time I thought, no, he couldn't have. He couldn't have been on something like this. That's not Joe. And the more and more I looked on there, I found him.

[Damon Fairless]

Melanie had inadvertently stumbled onto the path Joe had taken in his final days. He ended up in a place a lot of people do after searching for something they can't find in the real world. Okay, so I want to. Can you tell me about Joe? Like, that's. I want to know who he is as a human, who he was as a human.

[Catherine]

It was just. He was a proper comedian. He was the one, no matter what was happening. It'd make you laugh. He. That's him there. He had a thing for zebras.

[Damon Fairless]

Catherine's showing me a framed Photo Joe's hamming it up. His thing for zebras included a full size black and white striped onesie.

[Catherine]

He was kind, he was caring. He did have attitude as well when he wanted. He definitely had a mind of his own. It was just lovely. Just like a normal 23 year old. He'd go out and go out with his mates. He'd then tell you all about girls he'd met and we got the full story, trust me on that one.

[Damon Fairless]

Like how much?

[Catherine]

Everything, Everything.

[Melanie]

First times I met him, I'd only been going out with Aaron at this point about six weeks.

[Damon Fairless]

Aaron's Joe's older brother, Melanie's husband.

[Melanie]

It was a Christmas, the first Christmas I was with him. That's when he got his thong. Oh yeah, his thong. And he modeled the thong for me and I'd literally only just met them.

[Catherine]

That was joy. It was just. I suppose he's like me anyway, just an open book. Not that I'd do anything like that.

[Damon Fairless]

This is how Joe grew up. Fun, loving, tight with his family, happy. Until he was about 19. Right, okay. So I think it's important too to talk about because you guys as your family had like a hellish stretch.

[Catherine]

Yeah, big blow.

[Damon Fairless]

In the last few years of his life, Joe was dealing with a lot. Both of Catherine's parents had passed away after prolonged illnesses. And then his stepfather, Catherine's husband died suddenly. Joe was close to them all. In the midst of all this. One night Joe was getting off the bus after work. He had a part time job at a fish and ship's place. A group of guys swarmed him and mugged him. One of them had a knife and stabbed Joe in the liver and one of his lungs. He recovered but the grief and the pain started to weigh him down. He started a course of antidepressants. He'd been studying IT security at university. But it all started to feel like too much. So he decided he needed a break. Then he met a girl. It was intense, all consuming and tumultuous. Joe moved in with her and he sort of went dark and stopped communicating with his family for a bit. And then a few months later it was over.

[Catherine]

When he came home, I knew there was something. We knew there was something not right with him and he just kept saying that because he'd broke up with her. But when he came back from her, I never saw Major again how he

[Damon Fairless]

was Joe's zebra onesie thong. Worrying sense of fun had evaporated. He was quiet and withdrawn. He wasn't eating or sleeping.

[Catherine]

And then in The January he called

[Damon Fairless]

me, this was a week or two after Joe's breakup.

[Catherine]

And he said he'd gone into town from work. So I said, okay, what you doing? And he went, I'm actually on the top of a car park. I'm going to jump. Oh God.

[Damon Fairless]

Catherine eventually talks him down from the roof of the car park.

[Catherine]

And I just said, let me come for you. And he said, no. So I said, I promise I'll get you the help you need. Either I come for you or get in a taxi. And he got in a taxi and he came home.

[Damon Fairless]

After this, Catherine and Melanie pull into a tight orbit around Joe. There are countless doctor's appointments, countless prescriptions, attempts to get hidden, daily therapy sessions. But Joe still wants to die. And Melanie and Catherine are terrified. From what you're saying, he's got this patchy help that he's getting from mental health workers. He's on medication or should be on medication. Like how long does that go on before he ends his life?

[Melanie]

It wasn't even four months, was it? Three. January, February, March, beginning of April. Three months.

[Damon Fairless]

Some people live with suicidal urges for years and some for much of their lives. But most people experience crises that are more like Joe's. They're acute and relatively short lived and complex. It's usually a combination of a whole bunch of things. During the three months that Joe was suicidal, he made a few attempts. He swallowed a fistful of sleeping pills with no lasting effect. Another time he wandered into a park with a noose. He had even picked the tree. Before Melanie found him, Joe went missing one last time. Catherine called the police and they found Joe in the cemetery where his grandmother was buried. He had plans to die at her grave.

[Melanie]

That was the time Catherine said to me, I'm grieving for a son that I've not lost yet. And she said, I can already picture him dead.

[Catherine]

It was awful.

[Melanie]

We were battling with the mental health. We were always on the phone to them saying, he needs help, he needs help. He's asking us to help him die.

[Catherine]

He'd asked me and he'd asked Mel different occasions. He said to me, if you loved me, you'd help me die.

[Damon Fairless]

It's not clear exactly when Joe found the online suicide form.

[Melanie]

We'd found the post with his username on there.

[Damon Fairless]

Remind me how you knew it was him.

[Melanie]

He used Yo Yo Jojo as his username.

[Catherine]

Yo Yo.

[Melanie]

And the dates. As soon as you see the name, we. I just knew that it was him

[Damon Fairless]

at first. He just lurked and read other people's posts. But six days before he died, he began posting. What did you find in those posts?

[Melanie]

The first one was how he was. He was talking about hanging and how to hang yourself or electrocute. How could he electrocute himself at home?

[Damon Fairless]

He wrote about wanting to avoid pain and fear. He inquired about household items he might use. And in one post he uploaded a photo of a rope and the knot he intended to use, hoping for feedback.

[Melanie]

And someone said, well, you don't sound quite sure about that method, so why don't you try the sodium nitrite method as it's, it's easier, it's easier to get hold of.

[Damon Fairless]

Towards the end of that message, there was a link to a 3300 word instruction manual detailing exactly how to use it. And another user told him where he could order it for about 8 pounds from, quote, a popular auction site.

[Melanie]

And he said, well, I think I've found it. Can you confirm it for me to make sure I've got the right stuff? The conversation then moved to private message.

[Damon Fairless]

Joe bought it from a UK supplier and he posted about how excited he was to get his order, how happy he was that he'd soon be out of pain. One of his last posts reads, I've been a member for a few days and I must say, everyone seems so supportive and helpful whether to decide to catch the bus or don't. Honestly, the people on here are actually amazing and so supportive to one another. Catch the bus is how users refer to suicide. It sounds flippant and it is kind of, but there's more to it. The idea is that the forum is kind of like a bus stop, a place where people gather, where they keep one another company for a time and then move on. A few days after Joe made that post, a slim courier envelope landed on Catherine's doorstep. April 3, 2020. Joe died in the early hours the next morning. So after Joe's death, you've now spent a bunch of time on this site and you were saying like you were kind of obsessed with it, right?

[Melanie]

Morning, night, lunch. Go on.

[Catherine]

Still, still, it's normal.

[Melanie]

It's normal every day.

[Damon Fairless]

So what role do you think it played in Joe's death?

[Catherine]

Joe wouldn't have done it if he hadn't found out about that method. He took his life because that was a simple solution to him, that wouldn't hurt him and it wouldn't take long.

[Damon Fairless]

Do you know, I think he'd find that through some other means eventually.

[Melanie]

No, no, because it wasn't anywhere else.

[Catherine]

Where else do you find it and it wasn't very common in 2020. Like in any of the coroner's reports or the paper

[Damon Fairless]

in the uk, any unnatural death is followed up by a coroner's inquest. And if there's an ongoing public health risk, they'll send a report to whatever authority they feel can do something about it. In Joe's case, the coroner issued reports to the police and to the government ministry in charge of health policy in the uk. The coroner was concerned about the sale of the substance. Those supplying relatively small amounts of sodium nitrate should be made aware of the implications of their trade. But his bigger concern was what was happening on the website. Websites may be actively promoting a particular method of committing suicide and hence breaking the criminal law. By assisting suicide, consideration should be given to blocking their availability in the uk. In the lead up to the coroner's inquest, the police interviewed Catherine and Melanie, as well as Joe's two older brothers and younger sister. It gave the family a chance to ask a lingering question. What was in Joe's fourth note, the one he had addressed to the police,

[Melanie]

a police officer that worked within the coroner's office, that Annette had said at some point, can you read that note out that he left for the police? Because we never knew what it said. And she did, and she did one for the police. And it's, this is a suicide, please. This isn't my family. I've struggled with mental health for a long time. You'll find nothing was touched, helped or anything by anyone. If you get my phone, you'll see a website, it has all the details and methods on suicide. And then he put the bottom. Please do your best in closing that website. For anyone else.

[Damon Fairless]

You've been on this site, you know it now fairly well. What's going through your mind when you read Joe saying, like, stop, this site has to be shut down. What's going through your.

[Melanie]

We see it as. That was his final ask, that was his final wish.

[Damon Fairless]

Joe found exactly what he was looking for on the site. The method he used, a sense of support. So what was it about the site that made him think it ought to be shut down? Imagine you've been charged with a crime and the only witness pointing the finger at you isn't even human.

[Tina]

I remember thinking, are you serious?

[Damon Fairless]

What is this thing? It's something artificial created by a mysterious Canadian and it's coming for all of us. A life defining technology, crime as we know it will never be the same. I'm like, oh, my God, he's lying. From CBC's Uncover the Expert Witness Listen ad free on Amazon Music. Can you remember back, like take me back to that point when you first became aware of the site and understood what this place was?

[Tina]

Yeah, initially it was almost that signed in some way where you could sort of speak with like minded individuals who were also going through similar thought processes.

[Damon Fairless]

Tina came to the site in the same way Joe did, searching for ways to kill herself. Tina, which isn't her real name, is in her early 50s now. She struggled with depression for most of

[Tina]

her life, I'd say from about 16, 17. I've struggled with sores all the way through, just due to various traumas.

[Damon Fairless]

In her early 20s she was prescribed meds, which she eventually tried overdosing on. And then because she felt she couldn't really talk to anyone about how she was feeling, she spent most of the next three decades not talking about it until she found the site. We provide a safe space to discuss the topic of suicide without the censorship of other places as well. As a community that can understand you and let you be yourself without judging you or forcing you to do anything. The site draws tens of thousands of members, hundreds of thousands of casual visitors. Every time I feel anxious or uncomfortable, I'd think of suicide. Has anyone else experienced something similar? People from around the world looking for information.

[Melanie]

I'm new to this forum and this is my first post.

[Damon Fairless]

I just have a question sharing their resolve, their methods. Here are pictures of the setup I ended up using. I ended up in a cozy hotel with a surreal feel to it, their pain.

[Melanie]

Everyone, I am so sorry. I tried. I've tried for years. After nine attempts, two hospital admissions, 15 hospital visits, and a whole lot of pain, I'm done with this world.

[Damon Fairless]

There are nearly 3 million posts on the site's public facing message boards. There's one devoted to recovery, one devoted to random discussions, movies, games, hobbies, that sort of thing. But the most popular one, by at least an order of magnitude is the suicide board where users are invited to, quote, ask the questions you can't ask anywhere else. You were there, I guess, initially to understand more methods about how to kill yourself. Can you tell me what was your experience exploring those? What was that like initially?

[Tina]

It was really weird to find such information so easily. Sound and the detail and the level of detail rather, that goes into what they give you. On any different method that you want, people posting like things that you could click on a link that sort of would take you to where someone's actually harmed themselves because it's almost like they'll say this is how somebody hangs themselves. And then they'll show a link of somebody who's done that. And some of it was just so gory, just so detailed, so graphic. It's things you can't unsee. It's things you can't just can't unsee them.

[Damon Fairless]

There's no reliable way of predicting who will try to kill themselves, not at an individual level. And there's generally no single trigger. But there are some ways of reducing the overall risk. Don't share new methods, let alone step by step. Suicide guides don't make it easy for people to get their hands on those methods. Don't promote them as especially painless or easy. And more generally, don't normalize the act of suicide, let alone romanticize it. The site did all these things, and that started to make Tina feel sort of uneasy.

[Tina]

After being there a couple of days, it was different. It was almost like an unspoken ethos, really. You don't offer help to people if you know someone who's about to take their lives. You just wish them well and happy travels, safe travels and be done with it. And that's what I was witnessing, like, constantly. And I. I joined in with that on one occasion, just thinking, oh, this is how we've got to be. But it was a bizarre feeling in the sense of the salt tax. Found that we've. I could just chat to people. He knew what it felt like. And it turned out for me not to be that at all. Just became something different, completely different, and started changing me as a person. It changed me.

[Damon Fairless]

Okay. Can you tell me about that change? What do you mean?

[Tina]

Well, initially, when I was joining in with them, sort of wishing people well, knew they were dying and did nothing about it because she did try and help anybody, people didn't like it at all, Especially on what they called someone's goodbye thread.

[Damon Fairless]

A goodbye thread is a specific kind of post. Generally, it's the last one someone makes. They're all over the site, and they're the toughest ones to read.

[Melanie]

Committing suicide is so lonely because you want to say goodbye, but you can't. So strangers on an Internet forum are my alternative. Thank you for being here with me before I go.

[Damon Fairless]

They're basically digital suicide notes, but often they're more than that. Some users fastidiously chronicle the last days and hours of their lives. Sometimes they start posting just as they're making an attempt. I took the snow. My heart is beating fast. It feels like I've been on a run. I feel like I need to breathe really Hard and sometimes other users talk them through.

[Melanie]

Will be alright. Just please take it one breath at a time.

[Damon Fairless]

See you on the other side. My head is making a slightly screeching noise. I don't feel as bad. Now we are here with you. I hope you are calm.

[Melanie]

Are you sure about it? You can still call for an ambulance. It's your choice.

[Damon Fairless]

My finger feels numb, like I can barely move it. That was the last post this user made.

[Melanie]

Safe travels. Let's meet on the other side soon with your report.

[Damon Fairless]

You gave me more strength to do it the same way. Thank you.

[Tina]

A lot of us are in similar boats. But still, to witness someone actually leaving, wondering what else they're thinking, remembering. I broke down reading their final words. It was almost traumatizing to a point. Knowing exactly what people were doing and nobody was stopping it or at least trying.

[Damon Fairless]

Like, it's interesting to hear this because on one hand, clearly you must have been empathetic towards people who wanted to kill themselves, right? And you'd gone to this place because, you know, for that same reason. It sounds to me like there's an inner conflict going on.

[Tina]

It's complete conflict. Because I know sometimes I didn't try and offer help or anything either, which makes me feel. Would make me feel horrendous, but I was just too scared to do so. I didn't want to be kicked off the site. I still wanted to stay on there. But the other side of it is just from a humane point of view, it's just like thinking, what is this? If the last cry of help. What if she could say something?

[Damon Fairless]

Why did it feel so important for you to remain part of this site?

[Tina]

Honestly, I don't know. It kind of was almost like an addiction for me. It became an addiction. I needed to sort of be there. I needed to read things, I needed to know there were other people like me just reading about other people's deaths and refining what they're doing and people making sure it's going to be, you know, that it's going to work, it's just. Just mind blowing. Absolutely mind blowing.

[Damon Fairless]

By this time, it was November 2020, six months after Joe's death. Catherine and Melanie were on the war path. They'd taken to Facebook and what was back then, Twitter, trying to raise awareness about the site. And they were feuding with some of the site's supporters and they were starting to get noticed by the British press.

[Tina]

I'd seen a story about another young person who had taken their lives, who had been on the website, which then led to another story, which then led to me finding Catherine on Twitter. And I just reached out to her and just started talking. But she made herself available all the time to talk. And she kept in contact and told me basically that the site is bad, which I could see for myself. I could see the damage it was doing to me. And the person with her help or came off the site.

[Damon Fairless]

Though she wasn't off the site for long.

[Tina]

I started struggling again. I got really, really bad. But then I went back on the site. Not just because I wanted to learn more. I'd already learned what I needed to learn. I just went back on. I wanted to look at methods again just to make sure I'd got everything I needed.

[Damon Fairless]

Her plan was to use the same method Joe had, but it was very

[Tina]

difficult to find out where to get it from. When someone had made a comment about where to get it, I kind of thought, oh, this would be interesting to know.

[Damon Fairless]

Tina posted something to that effect on the site. Shortly after that, another user sent her a direct message.

[Tina]

The DM just came from nowhere. I'd never interacted with a person before, never spoken to them. And he just came in and said that he can offer some help and just said sl on the website. And that was from someone called Greenberg.

[Damon Fairless]

Greenberg. Tina could see from his profile that he had been a member for a few years. Greenberg had made hundreds of posts, and not just as a casual user. He was touted as a resident expert in some of the most popular suicide methods someone members regularly turn to for advance advice.

[Tina]

He said, I think I can help. And then just the imtime Cuisine website.

[Damon Fairless]

Imtime or imtime Cuisine, it was an external site for a company based just west of Toronto. It sold a handful of items, all it seemed for preparing cured meat, a couple of fancy sea salts, some liquid smoke, and 50 gram packets of 99, 999% pure sodium nitrite for just under 60 bucks Canadian.

[Tina]

So I just went to the website and saw it was for sale and oh, this is great. How easy was that to get hold of? And yeah, I didn't post it immediately, but the website reminded me I had something in my shopping cart. So at that point I was really low and I just. When I purchased it, I told Catherine.

[Damon Fairless]

Catherine had been so sympathetic and so understanding. Tina was convinced she wouldn't actually stop her. And because Tina trusted them so much, Catherine and Melanie were able to wheedle the tracking number out of her.

[Melanie]

We'd got in touch with Royal Mail to try and stop the parcel from getting Delivered, explained what it was, what it was in it, what it was going to be used for. And they said that they couldn't intercept any parcels. I says, what, even though someone's going to kill themselves with it when they receive it? Yeah, we can't do anything about that. And we had to just wait.

[Damon Fairless]

The substance isn't illegal, so the only thing Catherine and Melanie could do was to keep an eye on where the package was.

[Catherine]

Mel checked it and it still said it was in Canada.

[Damon Fairless]

Yeah, but it wasn't. The tracking info it lacked. The package was in the UK already. It was actually in Tina's hands and

[Catherine]

she messaged me and she said, don't be alarmed, just want to tell you it's arrived.

[Melanie]

When she said it arrived, we rang the police straight away, but because she wasn't in imminent danger at that point, they said, oh, well, yeah, we'll pop in at some point, but she has something that has got delivered to her, she is going to kill herself with it.

[Catherine]

I called her, we were talking and I just knew how she was, that she was going to do it there and then.

[Damon Fairless]

How did you know that?

[Catherine]

By advice, by how she was talking.

[Damon Fairless]

Catherine kept Tina talking while Melanie called the police. She told them time was running out. She could tell that Catherine was having trouble keeping Tina on the phone.

[Catherine]

She started crying, didn't she, on the phone, and said, I really love you and thank you for everything you've done and. And she just said, I'll have you, and put the phone down.

[Damon Fairless]

Before Tina could do anything, there was a knock on her door and when she opened it, she was met by a half dozen policemen.

[Tina]

They questioned me a bit. I wouldn't let them in the house. They did sort of threaten a little bit if I had this stuff still, if I don't give it to them, they're going to come in the house to find it. So I had no choice but to give up the stuff, so they confiscated it from me. That was that.

[Damon Fairless]

If that hadn't happened, would you have followed through with this? Were you at that point?

[Tina]

I believe so, yes. Yeah.

[Damon Fairless]

Once the police left, Tina called Catherine back.

[Catherine]

She said, did you ring them? And we said, yeah, and you're probably going to be really mad, but yes, we did. And if you don't want to start to us ever again, that's fine, but at least we know you safe.

[Damon Fairless]

How did you feel towards Catherine at that point?

[Tina]

Honestly, I felt quite angry. Well, not angry, but I felt betrayed because I didn't think she would do that. I don't know why I didn't think that. Because that's what she does. She saves people. I don't know why I thought that. Yeah, I just felt so betrayed and so hurt. Yeah, it just really hurt that she'd done that.

[Damon Fairless]

Kathryn and Melanie have actually done this a few times, prevented active suicide attempts. You feel that you have the right to interfere with someone's plans to kill themselves. Clearly, because you did so. Why?

[Catherine]

Because she didn't need to today. It was a temporary crisis she was in. Every person we've spoken with that we've intervened, the reasons were not valid. To take your life,

[Damon Fairless]

according to you

[Catherine]

guys and according to them, after they've all said it is a temporary crisis and with a bit of time, you can get there. And I can't sit and know that somebody's doing it if I know where they are and not try.

[Damon Fairless]

The vast majority of people who survive a suicide attempt or who are prevented from killing themselves are grateful. One of the defining characteristics of suicidal thinking is that it distorts our decision making. It makes the most destructive choice you can make seem in the moment like the only choice. Which is why one of the most effective ways of preventing suicide is simply to convince someone to wait it out, like bad weather. How were you coping after this?

[Tina]

Immediately, I wasn't doing great, but I was on the same as Catherine a lot at that point. Even though I felt betrayed, I trust her.

[Damon Fairless]

What prevented you from trying to kill yourself again? At that point, I had no access.

[Tina]

But then I did get to a point of, okay, no, this is not what I want to do.

[Damon Fairless]

How have you been?

[Tina]

Since I've had my moments, I've had very darn times that I did actually reach out for help again. And this time around, I've actually been heard and have been given the help.

[Damon Fairless]

Presumably people listening to this series, you know, some of those folks are going to be struggling with some of the thoughts that you've had, some of the feelings you've had. Do you want to give anyone who's listening a direct message?

[Tina]

The only thing I can say is just keep looking for help. Keep asking. Just keep asking. Especially as they just want to paint it. And because it does come, the help does come.

[Damon Fairless]

A few weeks after police came to Tina's door, they were back. But this time it was more than a wellness check. They needed Tina's help. In an investigation, police around the world had connected more than 100 deaths in what was starting to look like an entirely unprecedented crime.

[Tina]

I had detectives come to my door as well, and then I gave a statement to the police and any evidence that I had.

[Damon Fairless]

And did they ask for evidence about Greenberg?

[Tina]

Yeah, they did, yeah.

[Damon Fairless]

As Tina answered their questions, the same scene was playing out with hundreds of other people across the world. I'm in Western Canada and got a 1am Wellness check.

[Melanie]

I had the police come over to

[Tina]

take it away from me.

[Damon Fairless]

I live in Finland, I live in Japan.

[Melanie]

And the police came today, got a

[Tina]

visit in the uk.

[Damon Fairless]

I'm afraid they'll be back. It seems like this investigation is really big. One officer told me that Canada might

[Tina]

contact me and ask me questions.

[Damon Fairless]

As the police knocked on doors, they weren't sure if the people who had ordered the substance would still be alive. And in a lot of cases, they weren't. This is the story of people desperate to end their own suffering. People who are precariously close to the edge. And it's the hunt for those helping them, perhaps pushing them to take that final leap. I'm Damon Fairless. This is Hunting the Suicide Salesman.

[Tina]

In my opinion, he's one of the worst mass murderers we've ever seen. Just because you're using the Internet doesn't mean you get away with murder. They're false, right? But that's all I can say. I just want to incriminate myself.

[Melanie]

This name just keeps coming up.

[Tina]

Greenberg. Greenberg. Greenberg is like, who is Greenberg? If you press this button this time, you will die. We just pressed the button straight away.

[Melanie]

We would just like, wake up in the middle of the night and send their opposing counsel an email being like, why the fuck are you still selling it? We lost the humanity in it. You're over there and I'm over here and you're the crazy one. And as opposed to just like, oh, you're a person suffering. He gave somebody a product, but they still get a choice to use it. Why are we choosing it? Why are all these of these people going to seek this guy?

[Damon Fairless]

If you're feeling suicidal or going through a hard time, there are resources that can help, including some that are meant to help if. If you're in the midst of a suicidal crisis, you can find them at CBC CA Hunting. You've been listening to Hunting the Suicide Salesman from cbc. The show is written and produced by Lena Ghosh and me, Damon Fairless. Original music and sound design by Julia Whitman. Emily Cannell is our coordinating producer. Our contributing producer is Michelle Shepherd. Additional reporting and audio from Thomas Degla with CBC News. Executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is the senior manager and Arif Narrani is the director of CBC Podcasts. If you're looking for more series like this one and you haven't listened already, check out the first season of this series, Hunting Warhead. I take you into some of the darkest corners of the Internet following an international team working to rescue child abuse victims from their anonymous abusers. That was the first episode of Hunting the Suicide Salesman. Episode two is waiting for you now and takes you even deeper into the investigation. Find and follow Hunting the Suicide Salesman to keep listening. For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.