Interviewer (3:03)

Hey Sebastian, it's David here. Sorry, it's been a long time to get back around to you. I had another case that I was working on here in Ontario.

Sebastian (3:10)

Yeah, no big deal. I understand that you have a life and like other like work to do.

Interviewer (3:14)

Yeah, it was a big case, and I couldn't. I couldn't turn away from it.

Sebastian (3:18)

So I apologize for that before we even start. Okay. Like, I would say, when you came to my place, okay, obviously, I was not the most, like, welcoming person when

David Ridgeon (3:27)

I first met Sebastian. He seemed a bit put off by my appearance on his doorstep.

Sebastian (3:33)

But, like, I wanted to apologize for that because, like, I'm kind of, like, trying to move forward and obviously, like, getting strangers, like, to, like, bring the stories back to the surface. Like, I was, like, quite upset. So, like, that's a bit why, like, the reason I behave when I first met you. And, like, it took me a while, like, to somewhat warm up. I would. And I just wanted to apologize on that because he seemed like a decent guy, and, like, he deserved, like, a better welcome than that.

David Ridgeon (4:02)

It's an unexpected apology, but sounds heartfelt. Maybe it means that this second interview can get closer to the heart of Jackie's case too.

Interviewer (4:12)

I didn't particularly think that you were any different than anybody else I've ever tried to talk to about a case. So when I was down there, I was speaking to people, and as you know, a lot of rumors and circumstantial, disparate pieces of information are being told to me from all quarters. So I've been trying to get all through that, and out of it has come these questions that I have to ask you about. But this gives you the chance to give your side of it for the podcast. So how's it been for you since we met?

Sebastian (4:44)

I would say it's been difficult. Right. Like, I don't even think I'm ever gonna get that, like, or recover from that. It's like, okay, people think I'm, like, fine. Like, I have a girlfriend and stuff. I travel and things like that, and people think that my life is fine. But I would compare that to a bit like, people's life on Facebook. Right? Like, everybody look like they're living their life, but, like, they're not. I've been extremely depressed, and it affects basically every possible side of my life anywhere I go. Like, example, I go visit my parents. Everybody know about that story. So you go in a retirement place, and, like, people are kind of like, oh, is he fine or is he not? How do we know? Like, you see. Like, you see people's judgment, right? So it's extremely difficult.

Interviewer (5:35)

Yeah. People hear parts of stories, and then they try to fill in the blanks.

Sebastian (5:41)

They don't try to make a good story. Oh, the guy actually tried to help his wife but she was sick and it turned bad. It's not what people say, but from

Interviewer (5:49)

my perspective, I just need to know, you know, what are the facts? What can you tell me that's factual? And we go from there, right?

Sebastian (5:56)

Yeah. My case was close, and obviously, like, no formal accusations have been made to me. Right. Except for my in laws, but they're not the law, Right?

Interviewer (6:05)

Correct.

Sebastian (6:05)

I've never been accused.

Interviewer (6:08)

So you've heard about the OIJ investigator. His name is Ulysses Guevara. He was arrested. Did you hear about that?

Sebastian (6:16)

No, I did not, actually. What was going on with that?

Interviewer (6:19)

Okay, so that guy Ulysses Guevara was the lead investigator on Jackie's case, and he was arrested for trying to extort people. And basically, I think it was sort of like, if you don't pay me, I'm going to prove that you're guilty of something. So I'm not sure, but did you ever get any sense from any of the officers that there was anything weird going on like that?

Sebastian (6:41)

Actually, nobody ever, like, tried to get a dollar from me. That would be lying to say otherwise. Yeah. Ulysses, I think I met him only at the OYJ office, but my memory is not that great. And it's been three years. Right. But seriously, like, all the policemen from the oig, whatever you call them, all of them actually, have been respectful and nice and stuff, but just doing their job. They're straight to the point, like you would think cops are. I have, like, the real write up, like, from the oig, Right.

Interviewer (7:19)

Oh, okay.

Sebastian (7:19)

Anybody go at the OIJ with the number, they can have that write up.

Interviewer (7:24)

Oh, okay.

Sebastian (7:25)

I still want my name to be clean, so I reopen the case myself, and I want those information to be added there, even though I'm already a free person, technically. Right. And so I asked to reopen the documents even though it was closed and that I was innocent. Right.

Interviewer (7:43)

When did you do that? Did that happen just recently?

Sebastian (7:46)

Yeah, actually.

David Ridgeon (7:51)

I asked Sebastian if he can send me what files he says he received from the oij, but to date, I have not received them. We've been told by Costa Rican authorities that the case was archived in the courts in 2022 and filed as dismissed. Neither the OIJ or case prosecutor or file clerks said anything about the Jackie Furlan Smith case being reopened prior to us contacting them, getting the file, and having her phone looked at again. I move on to the main question I want to ask Sebastian the day of Jackie's disappearance. But I have to be careful since I don't through repeated Questioning Want to suggest anything that might taint his recollection or lead to false memories.

Interviewer (8:37)

Now, this next one is. It's important in terms of the timing of things, and I know it's a long time ago, but see if you can remember. There's conflicting stories on the physical part of the fight that you had with Jackie on August 17th, and it's to do with the order of events. So was the order of events, argue with her, go in the shower, then she's punching you in the shower, or was it punching first in the shower and then she left, you know, like.

Sebastian (9:07)

No, no, I was in the. That was okay. Arguing, I believe. And then I went in the shower and I got punched. Yes.

Interviewer (9:15)

Okay, so punched in the shower.

Sebastian (9:17)

Punch in the shower? Yeah, it was a punch in the shower.

Interviewer (9:20)

Yes.

Sebastian (9:21)

For sure.

Interviewer (9:21)

Yes. Okay. And then the toilet paper was before or after the punching?

Sebastian (9:27)

No, actually. Okay. If I remember well, and I believe I do, I was showering, and then she started to throw toilet paper at me. And then I remember word for word. Like, I said, like, what the fuck? Like, what are you doing? And then she kept going. And then, like. Like, I remember her eyes were like. Instead of being green like they normally are, her eyes were like. Like black with a dread. Right. And she punched me in the face. And I probably told that to you, but it's like, I believe she actually punched me. So she doesn't come back to make sure she doesn' back. That's my believing.

Interviewer (10:02)

Right. And so nothing.

Sebastian (10:04)

Like, if you still have an open door, you still come back. Right. If it doesn't work. But, like, I think she really wanted to leave.

Interviewer (10:13)

And this is the point in the story where most people say it must have accelerated. Right. Like, something must have gone wrong at this point.

Sebastian (10:23)

Accelerated as in what?

Interviewer (10:24)

As in it became a real fight and something happened to Jackie at this point.

Sebastian (10:31)

Oh, yeah, I know a lot of people say that. Yeah. But, like, it's like, by the time, okay, I clean up the mess and I got dry and dressed, like, she was gone. I'm not, like, a violent person. Like, anybody who knows me for real. I'm not talking about. The people that Gordon and Colleen know are gonna say that. Like, someone who actually does know me.

Interviewer (10:51)

When you were cleaning up or in the shower, I guess, whichever. What's going on? When she left, did you hear her calling anybody? Did you hear her on the phone with anybody or.

Sebastian (11:02)

I did not.

Interviewer (11:03)

No. And. And there was no. I'm trying to figure out the order of events upon her leaving too and like, what happened when she walked out and left her phone there, Left her ring, left her credit cards and. And whether.

Sebastian (11:18)

Okay, that someone leaves that she don't have another phone. Right. Like, it's easy to have two phones. Right.

Interviewer (11:27)

Did you ever suspect that she might have been seeing somebody else in that regard?

Sebastian (11:31)

The more it goes like I would think, yes. Okay. And I'm gonna tell you my theory. So I think she may have done promises to someone that, like, she would be able to live for her comfortably with half of my pension and have that house and stuff. And that story may have turned bad when she told him, like. Or, like, actually, I'm gonna have that much money instead of that.

David Ridgeon (11:59)

I did find one person who said that Jackie was on one occasion texting him suggestive messages late into the night. But the message receiver says it only happened once and nothing ever happened between them. I haven't heard anything else about Jackie in this regard from the community. Just what Sebastian is theorizing here, but it is just another theory. He has told me before she went swimming in the ocean and never came back and that she was mentally unwell and must have killed herself. Maybe he really doesn't know what happened to Jackie and can only guess. So I press this most recent theory a bit more or anything, but did

Interviewer (12:44)

you ever know her to be with somebody else at that time? Did you? Did you know that? Or were you just suspicious of that towards the end?

Sebastian (12:51)

Okay, she was like. I don't know if it was just like, to piss me off or something or like, to be serious, but she would flirt with people, like, on purpose, like, in front of me, right? Like, not all the time, but it happened quite a few times.

David Ridgeon (13:08)

I pivot again to ask Sebastian about the night Jackie disappeared. Questions remained for me about how she could have found a taxi outside of her house without first calling for one. It's not an area that cabs frequent, as I've been consistently told by locals and neighbours. But rather than focus on where Jackie went that night after the argument with Sebastian, I try a different tack. Where was he?

Interviewer (13:36)

So something that would fill in some blanks for me is on August 17, did anybody see you. You on the night of Jackie's disappearance? So after 6pm what were your movements? Did you see anybody that night?

Sebastian (13:52)

There's people who saw me, yes. For sure. Okay. I'm not sure exactly of what time. Okay. So that may be before or after the time you see. But I went. I went to the Palms for dinner that time because, like, I was okay, like, I still need to eat. And like, that was not unusual for her, like, to do stuff like that. Right. And I didn't want to be there basically, like, when she come back because, like, I was like, that's just going to be a huge fight and I don't want any part of that. Right. So I went there. And beside that, not sure.

David Ridgeon (14:37)

From about 6:34pm onward, there is nothing confirming Jackie's whereabouts beyond a potential taxi sighting of her leaving the Cacique development. And Sebastian's movements are as amorphous. The return home from Tamarindo is followed by a dinner Sebastian says happened.

Sebastian (14:55)

And.

David Ridgeon (14:55)

And here on the phone, Sebastian tells me a different version of this dinner story than when I saw him in person. Then he said he got home and Jackie was already there. So he left to give her time to cool down and went to eat dinner in town at the Palms restaurant. On the phone he says he didn't want to be at the house when she returned. So she had not gotten home yet. So we went to eat dinner in town at the Palms. And Gordon says that Sebastian told him that he ate with Jackie at home that night.

Sebastian (15:26)

Maybe he went for a drive after coming back and seeing that she's not there to verify. Like. Like, is she there? Like, where is she? But yeah, it start to be quite far now.

Interviewer (15:39)

Right, I understand.

Sebastian (15:39)

Difficult to remember for sure. Yeah.

David Ridgeon (15:44)

As Sebastian says, four years have passed, yet this is the exact moment that is of interest.

Interviewer (15:52)

So when you came back after looking for her, you told me you looked for her in Tamarindo, you came back. Did you go back to the house first, see her there, then go to supper or how did that work?

Sebastian (16:10)

I'm not sure. It's hard to say because, like, I probably either went back to the house or. And suffer after. Or suffer and then back to the house. I can guarantee you. Like, I don't want to tell you. Like, yeah, I don't remember well enough.

Interviewer (16:28)

Okay, so you're saying that the Palms people would be the only people maybe that saw you that night then?

Sebastian (16:37)

Yeah, I would say, yeah. And I remember that I spoke to one of my not friends, but acquaintance's wife there and a Spanish teacher that I. That's an acquaintance as well that was there.

Interviewer (16:50)

Okay. Oh, at the Palms. And she would remember you there? Do you think she would talk to me?

Sebastian (16:57)

Yeah, maybe it's like Diane McIntosh. I don't even have her phone number.

David Ridgeon (17:04)

Sebastian says that people at the Palms would remember seeing him. I speak to some POMS employees, but none remember seeing Sebastian on the night Jackie disappeared. So what about Deanna McIntosh? If she or anyone saw him, it would help back up Sebastian's whereabouts. But Deanna proves more difficult to find. So for the time being, I move back into some of the more nitty gritty questions for Sebastian.

Sebastian (17:32)

Okay. They did not take. Like, okay. Like, okay.

David Ridgeon (17:36)

OIJ says that cadaver dogs did not indicate in Sebastian and Jackie's backyard. But ever since speaking to OPEN, the semi pro operation that assisted in the search for Jackie, I've wanted to follow up with Sebastian regardless. Sebastian originally said that his whole backyard had been dug up and that he had to burn the resulting green waste that came from it. But OPEN told me they never dug in his backyard.

Sebastian (18:05)

I used to have raised bed gardens at the back. Okay. That were basically a box made of tree stumps and stuff. Yeah. And that's about, I would say, a foot from the ground, and they kind of moved that.

Interviewer (18:21)

But the Oihota said they did not dig in your backyard.

Sebastian (18:25)

Yeah, but they did not dig at all. They're not wrong. Yeah.

Interviewer (18:28)

Okay, so nobody dug actual holes in your backyard then?

Sebastian (18:31)

No, not old enough. Like, basically moving dirt and stuff to basically trash my garden.

Interviewer (18:38)

Okay.

David Ridgeon (18:39)

I see Jackie's state of mind in the lead up to and on the day of her disappearance is also something I want to come back to with Sebastian.

Interviewer (18:49)

Okay. Now, in the previous times that Jackie left, because I know that she left other times when she left your place, was she saying that she wanted to kill herself then, too?

Sebastian (19:01)

It happened multiple times that she said she wanted to kill herself, that she had enough, that she was done with it, done with life, that she couldn't stand death anymore, could not do that anymore. Like, all those possible were wording, right?

Interviewer (19:16)

Yeah. Yeah. So those times, it would be part of the same thing. Like, so would you have experienced this kind of a thing before with her where she was saying, I want to kill myself, and then she would leave?

Sebastian (19:28)

Yeah, I do. Yeah.

Interviewer (19:30)

Okay. I guess in terms of the killing yourself business, which is tough to talk about, all that stuff.

Sebastian (19:38)

Okay. Yeah.

Interviewer (19:38)

Did Jackie ever tell you that you should go kill yourself?

Sebastian (19:43)

Yeah, she did, actually. Yeah.

Interviewer (19:45)

And did you ever tell her that she should go kill herself?

Sebastian (19:50)

No, never did. Because. Okay. Even if it was not going well, because obviously she's sick. Right. So it's a bit hard to reason with, like, a sick brain. Right.

David Ridgeon (20:02)

Jackie's sister Candace remembers Jackie telling her that both she and Sebastian would get into arguments where they would say horrible things to each other.

Deanna McIntosh (20:11)

Things like, you should kill yourself.

Sebastian (20:13)

And I hope you die.

Deanna McIntosh (20:15)

And it just really like just things on that level.

David Ridgeon (20:20)

But here Sebastian denies his part of that narrative.

Sebastian (20:24)

So yeah, no, I never told her stuff like that because even though, okay, she was sick, like I always loved my wife and I still love her. Right. I understand that when she was sick it was just not her talking to me. So I was trying to, let's say like kind of brush it off and like, like pretend basically that she did not say that to me, that it's realness was talking to me. Because every now and then she would basically be horrible and tell me like, like a bunch of bullshit and stuff. And then suddenly her eyes would change and then she could be fine for a few days or a few hours or months. It was not all the time that she was like that, right? But the stuff, okay, like telling me to go kill myself or whatever, I'm just going to give an example, okay, that happened in the past, okay. It's like you just go to the restaurant, everything is fine and stuff. And then she would see like anything that looked like vaguely like a woman and she's like, that's her. Like you're having sex with her and like you see that like the way the conversation goes. So like that would be a, like that kind of stuff, Dennis. Like, like, like you should go kill yourself or like commit suicide and like that kind of things. Right. So those conversations happen multiple times. Much more like I would say since we moved to Costa Rica. And on that actually. Okay, I want to add something, okay, My point of view. When we moved to Costa Rica, obviously it was a retirement plan for me as well for her. And I believe those whole years she's been sick for a long time. Okay, but that whole time I was just believing if she don't have to work, she don't have the stress from like co worker and stuff. I thought that if she's away from that and she's away from North American stress, like the rat race, if you want, that she would do better. But the moment we moved to Costa Rica, it kind of like basically backfired. Okay, I'm partially to blame for that. I kind of underestimated the, the result like that uprooting someone from the country would have found someone. So she ended up like much more stressed here initially. We started to basically build a house. And I never thought like you would have told me that and I would have said no, no, Costa Rica is much more relaxed than Canada. But like that party, yes, like I said, I'm partially to blame but like, I. Good intentions, but it turned bad.

Interviewer (23:08)

You were suicidal. You said to me, you told me the helium tank story. But that was around when Jackie disappeared, when you had those tanks. But were you suicidal before that?

Sebastian (23:18)

Before that I was depressed, yes, but I would have not commit suicide. It's just that at that point, okay, with her, like disappearing and my former in laws, like accusing me and stuff and all in this case investigation and people sending me that threat and all the stress, you know, the general story, like the whole thing. Yes, that pushed me pretty close to that, honestly.

Interviewer (23:43)

And do you remember calling Colleen Gordon and telling them that you were suicidal? Did you ever call them and tell them that?

Sebastian (23:51)

Yeah, I did. Like, at some point, like, I kind of had enough. I did not call them like, hey, I'm suicidal. I called them basically, like. Like for help because, like, their daughter was completely going nuts, out of control and stuff. And it was like, it's to the point where I cannot take it anymore. I pretty much did that job, like for about 11 years, right, alone. I was at that point where, like, there was basically no reason to live. Literally.

Interviewer (24:25)

Now, how does your PTSD that you. I remember talking to you briefly, but you said it upsets your sleep. Are there any other sort of things that happen with regards to what happened to you from Afghanistan or your work with the army? What. How does it evidence itself?

Sebastian (24:39)

Ptsd? It's different for everyone. I'm extremely calm. Like, this doesn't really influence anything in my life except the fact that if there's a real danger, I may be in danger because obviously I'm not gonna go for cover. Right.

David Ridgeon (24:55)

Sebastian seems to be saying that he is prone to staying in stressful situations rather than leaving them. He goes on to say something somewhat opposite, that he isn't comfortable in loud public situations and doesn't like having his back exposed to people or having a window behind him. And he also says that his PTSD affects his memory of events.

Sebastian (25:17)

Okay, I still have memory, but I have like, some stuff that it's impossible to remember, especially numbers. I really have an issue remembering numbers. Like, I don't know my phone number even I don't know my girlfriend's phone number. I know my parents number because obviously I lived there for 20 something years when I was a kid. I have our time to remember, example, days of the week, months. I almost failed my physical exam to get my driver license because I did not know what day or what month we were in.

Interviewer (25:49)

The other thing Gordon told me, he said he remembers hearing from Jackie that You pushed her or knocked her down and that he spoke to you about that story.

Sebastian (25:58)

Okay. Much more details on that.

Interviewer (26:00)

Yes.

Sebastian (26:01)

We were living at the condo at that point. Okay. And the entrance for the condo was just a small corridor. So at some point, like, I was. Okay. Like, I cannot get screamed at, like, the longer. So I need to leave. Right. So. And I think it's probably the best solution to do. Like, to leave when someone is completely out of control. I can't do anything. Right. So I wanted to leave, and she blocked the door. And when I opened the door, she fell. Yes, she fell. It's much different than pushing someone or being aggressive towards someone. It's like she would not want me to leave.

Interviewer (26:39)

So the action led to her falling, but it wasn't.

Sebastian (26:44)

She did fall. Yeah.

Interviewer (26:46)

And he said that Jackie told him it happened twice, so two different occasions. So is there another occasion?

Sebastian (26:54)

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm not gonna lie. Okay. I don't really remember another occasion. If it did happen, it was probably something similar.

Interviewer (27:06)

Okay.

Sebastian (27:06)

Because, like, the. Like, when she started a fight, like, she really wanted the fight to keep going. So she was like, no, you're not going anywhere. Right.

David Ridgeon (27:16)

Sebastian does seem to me to be projecting honesty and openness in his answers. I'm trying for some anecdotal stories to see how things might have went before in Jackie and Sebastian's relationship, particularly during arguments or stressful moments. Knowing how previous events unfolded might be instructive, but it's certainly not scientific.

Sebastian (27:37)

Like, if you talk to people who actually do really know me, people who know me are gonna be okay. Like, Sebastian is gentle and nice and mellow. The most boring person in the world. But, like, I'm not someone who fight. It's not because I was in the army that I was violent. Right. Like, I was a mechanic. Right.

Interviewer (28:01)

I did see a text from Jackie that I was sent that says that you got mad once and stormed off and threw your phone on the ground. Drove off without a helmet.

Sebastian (28:12)

Person happened. Yes.

Interviewer (28:13)

And so what happened with that? So you got. You did get mad and you lost it. It says in this text. So how did that.

Sebastian (28:20)

Threw my phone underground? Like, because I did not want to be joined or, like, sorry. That she could not reach me by phone. And I just laugh. Yeah. It's not like hitting anybody. It's just throwing a frown on the ground and, like, leaving. Because, you know when, like. Like, everything escalate, like, you need to leave. You cannot stay there. Right. It's like if you're in, like, a building that's on fire, and the fire keep building and building. You need to leave. You don't stay in the building on that. On fire, right? It's like. It's. There's only so much like a human person can stand.

Interviewer (28:58)

And on the occasions when Jackie left two or three times or whatever it was, she came back a day later or hours later.

Sebastian (29:06)

The occasion that I remember, okay, I believe that was the first time she went to the. The hotel across from the airport. I believe the antenna, like, here in Costa Rica.

David Ridgeon (29:19)

And Sebastian recounts three times that Jackie left each occasion. She would eventually call, he says, and tell him where she was. A hotel, a resort, and she would come back the next day, or he would go to her and they would return together. During our first interview in Costa Rica, Sebastian told me that Jackie often just needed to get away for a bit or take a nap in order to reduce her stress levels. But that wasn't the case. August 17, 2021, the night Jackie disappeared.

Interviewer (29:54)

Now, you told me that police took your surveillance camera, right? Do you remember telling me that?

Sebastian (30:00)

Yeah.

Interviewer (30:00)

Okay. Now the police tell me they.

Sebastian (30:03)

Okay, they kind of ask about the cameras and stuff and, like, didn't do anything about it. And a few days later, the guy, like, came and just, like, left with the box.

Interviewer (30:13)

Okay, and did they give you a receipt for that? Did they say, here's the thing. Here's something that proves we took it.

Sebastian (30:19)

But, like, okay, it's been three years, right? I don't live in that house anymore. Right. Like, I'm renting the house, actually, because, like, I did not feel safe there.

Interviewer (30:26)

Oh, I see.

Sebastian (30:27)

And I don't want to stay with all those memories. Right.

Interviewer (30:30)

Because police say they didn't take the camera. They haven't taken the camera.

Sebastian (30:35)

But that, I mean, of course, maybe that's lone actually came. Somebody came.

David Ridgeon (30:43)

Lonnie, who Sebastian mentions is an alias that Douglas Barantes uses. Barantes sold his condo to Jackie's parents, Colleen and Gordon, and told them that he was a retired private investigator. He promised to do some work on Jackie's case for them. But Lonnie says he never asked for or received Sebastian's surveillance equipment. In fact, he says he's never even spoken to Sebastian. And with that answer, we've reached the end on the surveillance equipment.

Interviewer (31:15)

There's not much I can verify with this. It's just the people I've talked to and the things I've seen say that they didn't take it, but you say they did. So that's all I can. I can Just report that. So we've looked at some security camera footage. One of your neighbors had a camera. We didn't see anything. We saw the car drive by on the 15th. Can't see who's in it. But we do see you on August 18th. And I see you walking in that field next to the house, Ramay's house, which is across the street. And you're walking back to your scooter across the street. So this is the day after Jackie disappeared at about 11:30 in the morning. Can you remember what you were doing on that morning?

Sebastian (31:53)

There's a nice view there, but, like, I can't really think I went there to see the view. Like, I don't know. Guy parked there. Like, something must have got my attention or maybe I was even looking for

Interviewer (32:05)

or actually, I mean, that would make sense, right? It would make sense that you were looking for Jackie, but I really don't

Sebastian (32:12)

remember at all what. Where I was going there.

David Ridgeon (32:18)

I move into talking about the police search of the property. The dogs.

Sebastian (32:22)

It's like. Like they dig stuff in Egypt. Okay? That's like thousands of years old. And they can detect if there's blood. So I would say that if it's a week old or three months, the dogs would smell it.

David Ridgeon (32:36)

Sebastian is correct. If there was the scent of human remains on the property or near vicinity, I believe trained cadaver dogs would have alerted. And one OIJ dog did indicate on some human blood.

Interviewer (32:52)

Now, speaking of blood, there was some blood found in the backseat underneath the COVID In the backseat of the car

Sebastian (32:59)

of the Nissan, not underneath the COVID The dog was kind of, like, getting a bit agitated, and they just made a cut in the seat cover. And so, like, when, like, the dog smell blood, it can be like, anyone, like, someone with, like, the bug bite like, that sat there and. Because it did not go through the material or anything.

Interviewer (33:21)

Okay, so whatever. They took the test, which my understanding was it was what's under the COVID but maybe it is the COVID itself. It came back with a.

Sebastian (33:29)

They got the COVID They made the test there, and they checked, like, under. Okay, I'm not sure exactly the test they made because they obviously don't keep you there. Right. I just seen the cop there.

Interviewer (33:39)

They tested it there. The dogs alerted. The dog's name was Bacco. The dog alerted, and they tested it there with some kind of spray, luminol or something. They saw blood, they took it in, tested it in the lab, and it was a weak positive. But it was blood.

Sebastian (33:55)

Yeah, I don't deny it. That's what I'm saying, Right? Yeah. I'm saying, yes, they found blood, but it doesn't mean that somebody was slaughtered there. Right?

Interviewer (34:03)

Correct.

Sebastian (34:04)

Like, have you ever bought a used car? I'm pretty sure that it would test for blood at some point. Yeah, that's a used car actually. Right.

David Ridgeon (34:15)

A used car with human blood, but not enough to trigger the OIJ into further actions. I haven't been able to get any more details on the lab report to say if, for example, the blood sample was tested for DNA or for type, or whether it was circulatory blood or not. And there's more blood to talk about. Sebastian's.

Interviewer (34:48)

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Sebastian (35:22)

So whether it's a mountain escape city

Interviewer (35:24)

break or a week at the beach, there's still time to get great discounts. Book your next day now. Average savings, $72. Select homes only. So the scar on your leg. We talked about the scar on your leg. You said you got it walking back up the hill.

Sebastian (35:42)

Yeah, that's the hill where like the beach, they're building the wild duffer story out there. And it's all like, you know that those flat blue stones there. And it's like quite easy to slide on that. Right. So I always walk in flip flops and I'm pretty sure I'm not the first one who slide there.

Interviewer (36:01)

Okay, so there's been a few stories about the scar. People have told me a couple of stories about what you said to them. That was different.

Sebastian (36:09)

Yeah, I got jumped by a dog as well. Like, but like the dog like just did one small scratch and sliding did like the big one.

Interviewer (36:17)

Okay, so the dog bite is. This is in the same area.

Sebastian (36:22)

That was not a bite. That was just like the. The front claws. Like on the claws.

Interviewer (36:25)

Okay, the claws. Okay, okay.

Sebastian (36:27)

Yeah, but it was like maybe 2 inches. Like, that was a small scratch from the dog, but still fairly deep. And the main one was from the sliding. Yeah.

Interviewer (36:38)

And then did you get any other marks on you? Other than on your leg at that time?

Sebastian (36:44)

No, that was enough. Okay. Okay.

David Ridgeon (36:49)

When I first met Sebastian, there was no mention of a dog. And now he says there are two sets of injuries. One from slipping on the hill and another from a dog scratch. Sebastian says a large, dark colored stray dog scratched him and that no owner was around or evident. Unfortunately, the OIJ didn't take any pictures of Sebastian at the time. So there is no way to know for sure what injuries he had, if any, or what caused them.

Interviewer (37:22)

Now, next question. So in November 2021, about four months after Jackie disappeared. Four months after, did you go and ask a local bar owner to help you get a job for your new girlfriend from Tamarindo?

Sebastian (37:42)

That was a friend? Yeah.

Interviewer (37:43)

Okay.

Sebastian (37:44)

Actually.

Interviewer (37:45)

Okay.

Sebastian (37:45)

And like, she never worked there? Yeah.

Interviewer (37:48)

Was she a girlfriend though?

Sebastian (37:50)

No, no, she was a friend. Like. Like it never been like a girlfriend.

Interviewer (37:55)

So she isn't somebody that you were in a relationship with other than that? Other than just a friend?

Sebastian (38:00)

No, no, no.

Interviewer (38:01)

Okay.

Sebastian (38:01)

No, no, no.

Interviewer (38:02)

Okay. All right. Because that is.

Sebastian (38:04)

Okay. Like, to make the story clear. Okay. Like. Like I pretty much had like sex with her once because obviously I'm not made of wood, but like, she never been a girlfriend. Okay. So I'm just honest there.

Deanna McIntosh (38:24)

The night she disappeared, I was taking a Spanish lesson down at the Palms Hotel and restaurant and Cocoa.

David Ridgeon (38:36)

After a few different attempts, I finally find Deanna, the person Sebastian says saw him on the evening of Jackie's disappearance. She still lives in the Cocoa area with her husband.

Deanna McIntosh (38:48)

So I saw him that evening. Sebastian.

Interviewer (38:52)

Oh, okay.

Deanna McIntosh (38:53)

And I was down at the Palms and I was sitting in the restaurant having a drink and he ended up sitting with me. And he said they got in a fight and that Jackie, she left. But then he was very disparaging about her.

Interviewer (39:17)

And so when he first. Wait a sec. When he first saw you. I have to get this. When he saw you in the restaurant and you say it was still light out and you think it was around 6? Because it gets dark early down there.

Deanna McIntosh (39:28)

So it gets dark early. So. Yeah, it might have been before that because I think I saw him when it was still light out.

Interviewer (39:34)

And he told you at that time that she took off from the house?

Deanna McIntosh (39:43)

Yes.

David Ridgeon (39:45)

Deanna's text messages from the time show that since she was the only student there that day, Deanna would have finished her Spanish course around 4:30. This means Deanna says that she would have spoken to Sebastian in the restaurant and then been home by around 5:00pm that day. Randy, Deanna's husband, corroborates this timing and remembers Deanna telling him about this conversation.

Interviewer (40:10)

Do you remember hearing the story that Deanna saw Sebastian at the Palms?

Sebastian (40:14)

No, she told me that. Yeah. Okay. Like she said, we go to bed at 8, so before that we're always home.

David Ridgeon (40:22)

So if Deanna's recollection is accurate, that would put Sebastian at the Palms restaurant somewhere between 4 and, let's say, 5:15pm saying that Jackie had already disappeared.

Interviewer (40:36)

How did he describe the fight to you?

Deanna McIntosh (40:38)

He never told me it was a physical fight. No, he never told me or us it was a physical fight. But he did say she took off walking that night.

David Ridgeon (40:53)

But where did Jackie go if she took off walking at that time? A time that is earlier than previous timelines I've heard have suggested. We know that Jackie's credit card was used at Walmart and at the surf shop in Liberia, 45 minutes away between 5:30 and 7pm and that Sebastian was receiving texts from Jackie's phone during this time. Since the surf shop is not walking distance, did Jackie leave the house before 4pm Then perhaps gather herself and then go back for her car, then go to the surf shop? If so, this would mean she left home twice, wants to go to the surf shop, then the second time after fighting in the shower with Sebastian and then leaving her ring and phone. Is there any more detail in what Deanna heard about what might have happened to Jackie?

Deanna McIntosh (41:48)

Someone else that was involved in the search I talked to a while ago said that somebody talked to all the local taxi drivers and that nobody remembered taking her or anything like that. So I've heard that. But, you know, who knows?

David Ridgeon (42:07)

So if Jackie did come home twice and then leave twice, why has that never, to my knowledge, been a clear part of the story Sebastian has told to anyone? Instead, the story has been that there was one return and one exit. Deanna says that she has thought about that conversation she had with Sebastian that day day a lot.

Deanna McIntosh (42:30)

I have been concerned. I personally think he probably did something. I didn't go to the police because I didn't really have anything concrete. And we were still a little bit friendly with him and his new girlfriend. But we have not seen them for now, probably how long because they bought a place in Spain. But he was saying things and this is what I was gonna get to before I did not. We didn't realize Jackie, according to him, after the fact that she had either bipolar or schizophrenia or something. But that night he just was so negative about her and saying all these horrible things.

David Ridgeon (43:14)

I contact the Spanish teacher Named Laura, who Sebastian mentioned was also at the Palms. But Laura didn't know Sebastian and says she doesn't remember specifically seeing him there that night, nor did she hear or listen to any conversation Deanna might have had with him. So I go back to Sebastian with questions about his encounter with Deanna.

Interviewer (43:40)

So I found Deanna McIntosh. And Deanna says that you met her at the palms between 4 and 5:15, around then p.m. at the palms on August 17th. And she says that you were already saying to her that Jackie had stormed off from the house.

Sebastian (43:58)

Yeah.

Interviewer (43:59)

So at that time, by 4 or 5:15, Jackie. The whole thing with the shower had happened and the punching and then the storming off had happened at that time.

Sebastian (44:10)

Okay. It's hard, like, to remember because obviously it's long time ago. And. Okay, forget about the hours. Okay. The numbers for now. Okay. I think, okay. That when I came back from Tamarindo to look for her, like, I was. Okay, on the way back. I'm gonna stop for food right away because I was. If she's back and she's not answering or whatever, she's most likely pissed off. And I'm not looking forward to come back to, like, a pissed off wife. Right. So, yes, I believe I seen her before. And then I came back and the shower episode, like, happen.

Interviewer (44:47)

Okay. But Deanna's thing is different. She said she was home before sundown and she says she met you between 4 and 5:15. Deanna said that you said that Jackie had stormed off from the house. So, like, as if that that had already happened, that you'd had an argument with her and she'd stormed off from the house. I just wondered about the timing, because if she stormed off from the house, it would mean that then she went to La Tienda because the receipts were for after six. And then she came back again.

David Ridgeon (45:16)

Came back again because Jackie's phone was left at the house. The Kiseki Development gatehouse guard reported seeing Jackie drive to her house just once, sometime around 7pm but isn't sure it was on the date of her disappearance. August 17, 2021.

Sebastian (45:36)

I was not aware of that, actually. So I would say that going to that store actually happened after.

Interviewer (45:43)

Well, yeah. And then she must have come back, right?

Sebastian (45:45)

Information. And she's been kept away from me. Right? Yeah.

Interviewer (45:48)

But then she must have come back, right?

Sebastian (45:51)

It's possible that she was there when I went to Dupont. Right. Because when I made it back home, she was there. Right.

Interviewer (45:58)

So there were some receipts on the day on the 17th of August, 2020. One that came from La Tienda in Liberia, which is that surf shop and Walmart. The day Jackie disappeared, Do you know what Jackie bought at La Tienda?

Sebastian (46:16)

I don't know, but I don't know.

Interviewer (46:19)

Okay, so when you saw her, she, I guess, had returned from there. So you didn't see anything left over in the house from what she had bought there?

Sebastian (46:28)

I did not see a bag or evidence of purchasing anything.

Interviewer (46:32)

Okay.

David Ridgeon (46:34)

Sebastian says he cannot recall the precise sequence of events across the moments of Jackie's comings and goings and ultimately her disappearance. He says that maybe it was the storming off from Tatiana in the morning that he was talking about to Deanna. But Deanna says that she doesn't remember hearing anything from Sebastian about Jackie having an appointment in the morning, being upset at an appointment, or leaving one in Tamarindo.

Interviewer (47:03)

I just wanted to ask one last thing for you is just, I guess, how is your life? You've already answered this question really is how has it been since Jackie disappeared for you?

Sebastian (47:13)

My life has been shift. Okay. And like, the last few years have been so hard when I was with her that I was at the point, okay, I'm gonna be honest to God there. It's probably gonna come back to bite me in the face. I don't care. I was at the point, okay, where I was basically almost hoping that my parents die so I can commit suicide because life was that enjoyable. It sucked. And now, like, okay, like, I kind of somewhat get over it. It's pretty hard, right, like, to keep going out of the same hole all the time when everybody wants you in that hole.

David Ridgeon (47:51)

It's a hole that is almost impossible

Interviewer (47:53)

to climb out of.

David Ridgeon (47:55)

But it's the next questions that might help do just that.

Interviewer (48:00)

Did you have a fight with Jackie that led to her death on the day she disappeared?

Sebastian (48:05)

Yeah. No, I did not. Yeah.

Interviewer (48:08)

Okay.

Sebastian (48:09)

Okay. I'm just gonna add something to that before. I just wish, okay, that I, like, like, finished that story and never move here with her. Because, like, okay, like. Like I said, the accumulation of stress and uprooting someone and things I think made our condition worse. And like, that, okay. With taking distance. I should have probably not done that. Like, I was thinking good. But, like, obviously I'm not the psychologist or psychiatrist or something. And I think that aggravated illustration, I'm

Interviewer (48:39)

gonna be honest, but no matter what the cause, the fight with Jackie on that night did not lead to her death.

Sebastian (48:47)

No, no, no, no, no. For sure, for sure. And, like, I never, like, punch her or anything. Like, don't worry about that. I'm not a violent person.

Interviewer (48:57)

And then similarly, you did did you do anything to conceal that she had died, no matter the cause, on the 17th?

Sebastian (49:04)

No.

Interviewer (49:04)

August 2021?

Sebastian (49:06)

No.

David Ridgeon (49:11)

Jackie was a physically fit and capable 40 year old Canadian woman who disappeared while trying to find herself and build a life with her husband Sebastian in Costa Rica. People I have spoken to describe a loving but deeply fraught relationship. You can see that love in Jackie and Sebastian's photos of tropical birds and nature and of their experiences in a disarming paradise almost impossible to describe. And you can feel that fraught relationship viscerally in the eyewitness descriptions and text messaging about their sudden physical and verbal domestic struggles. Both Jackie and Sebastian suffer from degrees of mental illness that they thought in part geography might help. But both seem to have been brought to their limits with each other. Did Jackie walk off into the night on August 17, 2021? No security camera sees that. No person. Did she take a taxi? We've looked at all the angles, but we don't know. Why are there no credible sightings of Jackie after the 17th? And why was her body never found? For me, it's meaningful that Sebastian spoke to me whenever I asked and he gave answers to all my questions. I believe him when he tells me that he did not kill Jackie. For now, Jackie's story ends where certainty does, in that dark tropical jungle between what we know and what we can only imagine. This is the final planned episode in the Jacqueline Furlan Smith case, but the investigation continues. If you have any information, the time to come forward is now. If you or someone you know is experiencing thoughts of suicide, help is available at the Suicide Crisis hotline by dialing 988. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written and produced by me, David Ridgeon. The series is also produced by Maria Jose Burgos. Sound design by Evan Kelly. Natalia Ferguson and Emily Ferrier are our transcribers. Emily Cannell is our digital producer. Our podcast art was designed by Ben Shannon. Our cross promo producers are Amazing, Amanda Cox and Kelsey Cueva. Our video producers are Evan Agard, Tamina Aziz and John Lee. Additional recording and field support by Owen Ridgeon. Our music is by Key Witness. Executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is the senior manager. Arif Noorani is the director and Leslie Merklinger is the executive director of CBC Podcasts. If you're looking for more investigations, check out the past seasons of Someone Knows something. There are nine cases you can binge listen to now. Season 8 investigates the disappearance of Angel Karlic, a young indigenous woman woman from White Horse, Yukon. Season nine revisits my investigation into the murder of Christine Heron and the conviction of the man who confessed to her murder. Find Someone Knows something on the CBC True Crime YouTube channel or wherever you get your podcasts.

Sebastian (53:04)

Sam.

David Ridgeon (53:36)

For more cbc podcasts, go to cbc ca podcasts.