BONUS: Beyond the Hunt

Summary

Someone’s Hunting Us – BONUS: Beyond the Hunt

Podcast by NJ.com | Released July 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this gripping bonus episode, executive producer Christopher Kelly sits down with hosts Rebecca Everett and Daisy Kalavia Robertson to go "beyond the hunt"—pulling back the curtain on their investigative process, their interactions with serial killer Khalil Wheeler-Weaver, and the emotional toll of telling the stories of his victims and survivors. The episode explores not just the mechanics of covering a true crime case, but the deep personal and societal implications of whose stories get told—and who is believed.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Interviewing a Serial Killer: The Cat-and-Mouse Game

• Initial Contact: The hosts describe the surreal experience of making direct contact with Wheeler-Weaver, noting his unnervingly calm demeanor during video exchanges.
  • Rebecca: “I'm like, already so creeped out. Are you so creeped out?” [01:28]
  • Daisy: “Ultimately... there was some back and forth with him where it seemed like it was like a game he was playing…This gave him something to do, right?” [02:32]
• Emotional Toll: Despite acting brave, the impact lingered subconsciously.
  • Daisy: “During the day, I'm like, this journalist…But when I go to sleep, he's in my dreams, like, in my nightmares.” [04:03]
• Facing Fear & Safety Concerns: The hosts recount their anxiety over possibly meeting Wheeler-Weaver in prison, drawing parallels with "Silence of the Lambs."
  • Rebecca: “That was the moment... that Daisy went like, wait, we can't even have our cell phones in there. Like, is someone gonna be there to, like, protect us?” [04:34]

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2. Challenging Stereotypes: What a Serial Killer 'Looks Like'

• Misconceptions: The case destabilized conventional, often racialized, ideas of what a serial killer is ‘supposed’ to look like.
  • Rebecca: “Some experts I talked to said it's almost like 50, 50, but we don't really hear about [Black serial killers] as much. And when you don't hear about them as much, it's also the same thing for the police.” [05:38]
  • Christopher: “It does feel like that kind of iconic Jeffrey Dahmer, Ed Gein or John Wayne Gacy…” [06:06]
• Media & Law Enforcement Blind Spots: The lack of coverage and cultural reference points may hinder investigations.
  • Daisy: “If people aren't even aware that it's a possibility, then for sure it's going to happen again. At least now if it does happen again... there'll be some red flags.” [07:18]

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3. Personal Connections & Understanding the Unfathomable

• Unexpected Personal Ties: Daisy discovers her cousin knew Wheeler-Weaver growing up—he was “a regular kid.”
  • Cousin: “He was cool. He was a regular kid…No one could catch him because he was the fastest on the block, bro.” [08:49]
  • Cousin: “Charming...well-mannered...I would have never suspected a thing.” [09:35]
• Limits of Understanding: The hosts grapple with the impossibility of fully understanding a killer’s inner life.
  • Daisy: “There's many different Khalils, depending on who you ask, who you talk to.” [10:35]
  • Christopher: “No amount of reporting is ever going to allow you to understand what's going on inside that guy's head.” [10:20]

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4. The Impact on Victims’ Families & Telling Their Stories

• Restoring Dignity & Voice: The reporters share their sensitive approach to interviewing loved ones of victims, focusing on empathy and respect.
  • Janisha (friend of victim): “She was human. She was our friend, and she was loved. I feel like we've been quiet for too long, and her name's been in the dark for too long.“ [14:12]
  • Daisy: “There's so many times when I said, like, here, let me get you some water, or, like, let's take a break...honoring how difficult that is.” [14:57]
• Reluctance and Cultural Complexity: The hosts detail the challenges of navigating cultural sensitivities—e.g., Mawa's mother initially hiding her identity due to stigma and community scrutiny.
  • Daisy: "They're immigrants. They really care about what other people in the community have to say...So it made sense why she did what she did." [18:54]
• Survivors' Pain & Expectations: Tiffany Taylor, who escaped Wheeler-Weaver, declined to participate without compensation, raising questions about exploitation and agency.
  • Daisy: “We're journalists. We don't pay for interviews...her voice was so valuable...but ultimately we couldn't make it work.” [19:56]
  • Rebecca: “I would hope that she, you know, maybe with a little more distance from it, was doing better...But I also...I wonder if she's, like, proud of herself for doing that, because she should be proud for outsmarting him and helping take him down.” [21:04]

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5. The Haunting Details & Lingering Questions

• Moments That Stay With Them: The hosts and their interviewees recount the physical and psychological horrors inflicted by Wheeler-Weaver.
  • Daisy: "What haunts me is when he told Tiffany that he was used to bringing women in and out...agonizing and being tortured..." [21:48]
  • Rebecca: “I read the testimony...there are details in there that I have not told you guys, and I'm not gonna say it right now that are just awful...She had cigarette burns. These are things that I'll never forget.” [22:23]
  • Daisy: “Another thing that's haunting is the fact that Sarah asked him if he was a serial killer...there was an instinct that she had...” [23:02]

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6. Barriers to Justice & Delays

• Legal Updates & Frustration: The hosts explain ongoing delays in Wheeler-Weaver’s pending trial for one victim.
  • Rebecca: “At Khalil's last court date, there was more back and forth with the judge about setting a potential trial date...Khalil's lawyer finally met with him...he told the judge, Khalil doesn't even want to talk about his case...until his appeal...is finished.” [23:39]
  • Daisy: “Also, the fact that he thinks he gets to decide when they go to trial.” [24:42]
• Institutional Apathy: Former Elizabeth police chief's dismissiveness shows systemic disregard for vulnerable victims.
  • Christopher: “That, to me, is this story in a nutshell. I don't really care. I got a dinner reservation to make.” [25:38]
  • Rebecca: “...the earlier part of that phone call is me telling him who Tiffany was because he didn't remember...” [25:51]
  • Daisy: “Maybe that's the culture that they allowed or that they encouraged. You know, it comes from the top down.” [26:36]

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7. Processing and Finding Hope in Storytelling

• Coping with Despair: The hosts reflect on the limits of journalism and the enduring pain for families and even journalists.
  • Rebecca: “I had a dream about, like, just last week about Mawa...My brain...is just trying to fix this horrible situation, and I can't. You know, we're journalists. We can bring it to light. That's all we can really do.” [27:37]
  • Daisy: “...Maybe our work is helping them to get the closure that they desperately want and that they desperately deserve...Giving them a voice, amplifying their voices...my hope comes in that I did it. We did it.” [28:03]

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8. A Poignant Ending: Honoring a Victim’s Birthday

• Commemoration: The episode closes with a moving account of the victim’s friends—Janisha, Kiki, and Deanna—gathering to release balloons on what would have been Mawa Dumbia’s 24th birthday.
  • Daisy: “They had these beautiful balloons for her...they each went around saying a few words to Mawa...very emotional. There were many tears, but also laughter...the sadness of knowing that, like, she should be here.” [29:02]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the killer’s misleading normalcy:
  “He was cool. He was a regular kid…well-mannered...I would have never suspected a thing.” — Daisy’s cousin [09:35]
• On empathy in reporting:
  “Leading with empathy and leading with the fact that I'm a human first and I'm a journalist second.” — Daisy Kalavia Robertson [14:49]
• On institutional neglect:
  “That, to me, is this story in a nutshell. I don't really care. I got a dinner reservation to make.” — Christopher Kelly [25:38]
• On closure and hope:
  “Giving them a voice, amplifying their voices…this is what I can do. And so my hope comes in that I did it. We did it.” — Daisy Kalavia Robertson [28:03]
• On the need for justice:
  “It matters to them. They didn't get their day in court. They didn't get to face him and tell him what they want him to hear from them. So it definitely still matters.” — Daisy Kalavia Robertson [30:34]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 01:28 | First video exchange with Wheeler-Weaver | | 04:03 | Emotional impact and nightmares following interviews | | 05:38 | Challenging serial killer stereotypes | | 08:49 | Daisy’s cousin describes knowing Wheeler-Weaver | | 14:12 | Janisha Jackson on remembering victim Mawa Dumbia | | 17:10 | Navigating cultural complexities with Mawa's family | | 19:56 | Challenges interviewing survivor Tiffany Taylor | | 21:48 | Most haunting details from the case | | 23:39 | Legal update and trial delays | | 25:38 | Former police chief’s dismissiveness about the case | | 27:37 | Hosts reflect on despair and journalism’s limits | | 29:02 | Friends’ memorial for Mawa Dumbia | | 30:34 | Importance of justice for victims’ families |

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Tone and Style

The tone is deeply empathetic, candid, and unflinching—balancing journalistic curiosity with profound respect for victims and survivors. The episode is at times raw, reflective, and often emotional, with genuine camaraderie among the hosts.

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Conclusion

This bonus episode goes far beyond the facts of the case, delving into the lived experience of reporting a story where empathy, trauma, justice, and hope intersect. By prioritizing the voices of victims and their families—and honestly addressing injustice and the limitations of the system—the podcast offers a powerful meditation on whose stories matter, and why it remains so urgent to tell them.

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For listeners seeking more than just crime scene details, this episode offers a rare window into both the emotional journey of investigative journalists and the enduring pain—and resilience—of a community too often left unheard.

Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Christopher Kelly]

Hi, everyone. My name is Christopher Kelly, and welcome to this special bonus episode of Someone's Hunting Us. I'm one of the executive producers of the show, and it is an absolute privilege to be here today on this side of the sound booth, interviewing our two amazing hosts, Rebecca Everett and. And Daisy Kalavia Robertson. Daisy, Rebecca. Thank you guys for having me here today.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

Thank you so much for doing this, Chris.

[Christopher Kelly]

I am very excited to be talking to you today about Khalil Wheeler Weaver, one of New Jersey's most notorious but also unknown serial killers. And I want to start the conversation with what, for me, is one of the most disturbing, creepy, but also entertaining parts of the podcast, which, when you guys make contact with him, let's listen to a little bit of that audio.

[Rebecca Everett]

Okay, so let me turn my screen around. Okay. Yikes. Okay, here we go. I'm, like, already so creeped out. Are you so creeped out?

[Narrator]

Hey, what's going on? Becca and Daisy, you got your message. At first, I don't know. I really wasn't. I wasn't thinking about replying back. I don't know why. I guess I just need to know more about the actual project itself.

[Christopher Kelly]

So, guys, I've talked to both of you about this, but it has got to be weird when suddenly you find yourself having a back and forth exchange, a video exchange with a murderer, a serial killer, and you both had somewhat different reactions to that experience. Talk me through that.

[Rebecca Everett]

Yeah, that's very true. And in the very beginning, like, even before that initial exchange, Daisy kept asking, when are we gonna reach out to Khalil? I said, we'll do it later. We'll do it later. Like, he, you know, he's probably not gonna talk to us. We can put that off a little while. And Daisy was like, we have to get this for me.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

It was like, that seemed like the climax. Like, that seemed like this is what we're doing this for, to talk to this man and ask him the hard questions. Ultimately, you know, there was some back and forth with him where it seemed like it was like a game he was playing and something that was exciting for him. Now, think about it. He's in jail, behind bars. This gave him something to do, right?

[Christopher Kelly]

There's a moment in the podcast where it almost feels like you guys are being drawn into his cat and mouse game, and you start to think this is what he did to these women. Was that going through your heads? Is that exchange was unfolding over a series of weeks and months?

[Rebecca Everett]

I feel like it was really when we got the video, because in the video, suddenly I did have this sense that he did seem really chilled out about the whole thing. And I was like, that's not how I. When we record those videos, I'm nervous. We're, like, arguing about what we should say. Like, it was, like, a big thing for us. And he seemed so chill, like, very familiar.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

Like, we were friends. Like, we were old friends, just. And I think that because of that behavior, because of that demeanor, like, this is why so many women trusted him, because he does come off as just a regular guy.

[Christopher Kelly]

And I would have to think that even though, you know, he's locked up and the key's thrown away for the rest of his life, it still gets in your head. You still get a little nervous about it, right? A little fearful.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

Yeah. I mean, I think I wasn't in the moment, but in my subconscious I was, because I had nightmares about him. I had nightmares about him coming inside my kid's room. And it just was really frightening in that way that even though during the day, I'm, like, this journalist who's, like, not afraid and was, like, trying to go in this cell and talk to this man, but when I go to sleep, he's in my dreams, like, in my nightmares. You just can't help but feel that fear.

[Rebecca Everett]

There was a moment, I don't know if you remember this, where we were corresponding with jail officials about whether we could go do an interview. And they sent us all these rules that was, like, when you come in, you won't be able to bring your cell phone in the room. And that was the moment that Daisy went like, wait, we can't even have our cell phones in there. Like, is someone gonna be there to, like, protect us? You know, like, what are we? And I think suddenly it sunk in, like, what that might be. Like, obviously, we never got in that room to.

[Christopher Kelly]

To find out whatever Clarice is talking to Hannibal. Hannibal in that glass protective cage or something. One of the themes of someone's hunting us is the idea that this guy didn't seem like a serial killer, didn't look like a serial killer, didn't fit the profile, that we associate with serial killers, as you got into it, how much of that is true or how much of that is media perceptions of serial killers. And we don't think about this question of what a serial killer looks like in the right way.

[Rebecca Everett]

So I think people have this perception that. And we had it too, right, that there aren't that many black serial killers and there really are plenty of them. In fact, some experts I talked to said it's almost like 50, 50, but we don't really hear about them as much. And when you don't hear about them as much, it's also the same thing for the police. Right. They would just automatically think of the profile, the FBI profile from the 70s of the White male, middle aged serial killer.

[Christopher Kelly]

It does feel like that kind of iconic Jeffrey Dahmer, Ed Gein or John Wayne Gacy. And those are about typical white, middle class serial killers. And the stories about black serial killers do not get told in mainstream media.

[Rebecca Everett]

I think one of the big reasons we don't hear about black serial killers is because their victims are usually black women and usually marginalized black women. It is also that serial killers are relatively rare. Right. So like Dr. John White, the serial killer expert we spoke to, used to be a detective in Texas and he said when you see a homicide, you just think a homicide. You don't think this might be a serial killer. This is not something they've dealt with before. And you only know what you know.

[Christopher Kelly]

Let's listen to that. So I imagine the officers in Newark would be much more inclined after this Whigler Weaver case to consider a black male as a serial killer. Because you're certainly not going to see it on TV very much. You're not going to see it in the movies. And they will react based on the information that they've gleaned from news, from police reports from everywhere else.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

Yeah, but I think that that awareness is so important and that goes back to why it's so important to tell this story. Because if people aren't even aware that it's a possibility, then for sure it's going to happen again. At least now if it does happen again, I think there'll be some red flags and some connections that can be made where people can be like, wait a minute, there was this other guy in New Jersey who did X, Y and Z. Maybe this is what's happening. But if there's nothing to reference, it makes it that much harder.

[Christopher Kelly]

So, Daisy, it turns out you have something of a personal connection to Khalil. Can you explain that? And Then we'll hear some audio.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

It was my daughter's communion, and I was talking to my cousin, and he's like, so, guys, what are you working on? And I told him, I'm like, well, it's. I'm working on this podcast. It's a bottle of Serial killer you've heard of. He's like, oh, yeah, what's his name? And I'm like, oh, Khalil Wheeler Reaver. And he's like, I know him. And I was like, what? And he's like, yeah, I played basketball with him. I had my little microphone. I hooked it up to my phone, and I told him, tell me everything you know about this dude. And. And that's when he told me. And it just. It kind of blew my mind that, like, I just, you know, didn't expect that somebody so close to me had memories with this guy where they. When they were children, you know, just playing basketball, going to parties and hanging out. So it blew my mind.

[Christopher Kelly]

So let's listen to a little of that impromptu interview with your cousin.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

Okay, primo. So what's going on? You knew Khalil?

[Narrator]

Yes, I knew him from a very young age. I want to say, like, 12, 13. My family's best friends, like, our family friends, we used to chill, hang out, and they lived in Orange. I would sleep over their house, and Khalil was there. Like, he lived around a block from them, so they were friends with him. So he would come over all the time, too. And, yeah, he was cool. He was a regular kid. We'll play basketball, play tag, play manhunt. And we play, like, all over the neighborhood. Hide under cars, climb rooftops. Like, whatever you have to do to escape. No one could catch him because he was the fastest on the block, bro. Like, it was crazy.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

And did you ever get, like, a weird vibe from him? Like, how would you describe Khalil?

[Narrator]

Charming. He knew how to talk. He knew. He was very well mannered. Like, I said, he was cool. I would have never suspected a thing from him. Never in my life.

[Christopher Kelly]

Did it change the way you thought about Khalil or how you approached the story?

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

It did. Because at first I came into this thinking that, you know, he's a nerd looking kid. He looks like he could be, like, a math tutor. Maybe he's an incel. You know, there's something off with this kid. Maybe he was the kid that got bullied. For me, it was like, well, maybe. Maybe we're wrong. Maybe, like, our hypothesis about him being this type of person or this type of killer or having certain childhood that traumatized them in whatever way is wrong.

[Christopher Kelly]

It's almost like you spend a year reporting, thinking about this, and then you hear interviews like that, and you realize no amount of reporting is ever going to allow you to understand what's going on inside that guy's head or who he really is.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

Exactly. It's impossible. Also, the fact that he was a different person to different people. There's many different Khalils, depending on who you ask, who you talk to.

[Christopher Kelly]

Rebecca, we've worked on two podcasts before this Father Wants Us Dead about the John List murders, and in the Shadow of Princeton about the murder of Cissy Stewart. John List and Cissy Stewart both are past. Khalil is still with us. Do you think about how he might react to this podcast?

[Rebecca Everett]

Oh, for sure, yeah. Knowing that he might hear it was weird. Knowing that his friends were definitely gonna tell him about it. Like, he wasn't gonna miss this. I think it all help. Probably helps him, like, feel like this, you know, put upon victim. He always acts like he's the. He's the guy that never got a fair shake.

[Christopher Kelly]

Do you think you'll hear from him?

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

I think maybe if we tried to engage with him again, if we said, hey, here's the link to our podcast, But I don't think he would just be the first one to send a message. I would be surprised if he did

[Christopher Kelly]

that question for both of you. If there is one question you can ask him, if you had just one question, what would it be?

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

I mean, for me, it'd be why? Because it's the question that is eating up the loved ones of his victims. They want to know, why? Why did you do this? Why did you take my loved one's life?

[Rebecca Everett]

I would maybe ask a question that wasn't so much a question because I wanted to hear his answer, but because I wanted to say to him, how can you sleep at night? How could you sleep at night after killing this girl or this girl or. Or, you know, torturing women? I just. I think about those moments where he, in that interrogation room was, like, pushing away the photo of Sarah Butler's body. And it's like he did that. Like, is he. He really seemed like he couldn't handle looking at them. And I just don't. I don't know how you can be the monster who can do those things, but also be like, oh, I don't want to look at that. Like, how can he contain those. Those two things? Like, maybe he does have some sort of Part of him that's horrified by what he's done, but I don't know if he's ever going to admit it.

[Christopher Kelly]

After the break, we're going to talk about those victims. Robin West, Sarah Butler, Joanne Brown, Mawa Dumbia. Those are the women who were killed by Khalil Wheeler. Weaver and I want to spend some time talking to you about those victims and about your efforts to bring their stories to life. Let's start with some audio. An interview that you did with Janisha Jackson. She was the first friend of one of Khalil's victims who you were able to connect with.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

I had emailed her earlier that day, just introducing myself, letting her know what Rebecca and I were hoping to do and asking if she was willing to speak with me. And, you know, when I read her email, she just was so grateful that I had even reached out. And so I hopped on phone, I gave her a call, and she said, mawa's story needs to be told. It deserves to be told.

[Rebecca Everett]

And she dialed in. Deanna Edison. Mama's one of Mama's other best friends.

[Christopher Kelly]

Let's listen to that.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

Like, they want us to forget about

[Christopher Kelly]

her, but we can't.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

She was human. She was our friend, and she was loved. I feel like we've been quiet for too long, and her name's been in the dark for too long. When I sent your email yesterday, I

[Rebecca Everett]

wanted her to cry.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

She said, you know, I've been waiting for this for years.

[Rebecca Everett]

There would be moments in these interviews where it sort of came up where it was like, yeah, why are we just talking about this now? Like, you know, it's great that we are, but we should have done this years ago, and they felt that way, and so do we.

[Christopher Kelly]

How do you prepare for an interview like that where, you know, you're running that risk of re traumatizing the person?

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

I think for me, just leading with empathy and leading with the fact that I'm a human first and I'm a journalist second.

[Rebecca Everett]

And.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

And that's always gonna be the case. This is a real person with these horrible memories, and they're here, willing to share, willing to, like, open up the wound and show it to me, and so honoring how difficult that is. So there's so many times when I said, like, here, let me get you some water, or, like, let's take a break, or, like, I understand this is so hard for you, and I am so thankful that you're talking to me about it, because I know it's really, really painful, and I can't imagine being in your shoes. So there were lots of times where, like, you know, we cried, we hugged, and you have to know that, like, you're not in control. Like, they're in control because they are the ones who will go home and go to sleep at night and relive all of this.

[Christopher Kelly]

Rebecca, what was the hardest interview for you?

[Rebecca Everett]

I think I had the hardest time interviewing Keke Smith, and she was very good in the interview. She, you know, had some of the most memorable quotes that we had in the podcast. But it really shook me. Like, she talked so quietly. She was so. I don't know, it just felt like she was trying to protect herself from how bad she knew it was gonna hurt.

[Christopher Kelly]

Let's listen to a little bit of that audio.

[Rebecca Everett]

Are you nervous about this? Like, is there anything I can do? I mean, it's nerve wracking, right? I am nervous, but I'm thinking about

[Christopher Kelly]

the whole situation of how, like, I

[Rebecca Everett]

found out and, like, I miss her. I'm doing this for her because I just want her to have justice. Honestly, like, Daisy kind of had to take over because I was so. I felt so bad putting her in that position, even though, you know, she had come there to do that and she wanted to do it for Mawa. And I think she was, like, a little proud of herself at the end that she did.

[Christopher Kelly]

There's another part of the podcast that I want to ask you about, and it's when you go to interview Mawa's parents at the hair braiding salon that they own, and it turns out that there's a complicated backstory, and at first you think you're talking to Mawa's aunt. Can you explain that? And we'll listen to some audio.

[Rebecca Everett]

Right? The first time we went there to the salon, and we, you know, we're working with our. Our translator, Muhammad. She told us that she was Mawa's aunt. And then later, when we learned that she was Mawa's mother, that made a lot more sense.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

You know, right away, she was really kind of desperate to, like, rush us out of the salon, you know, because when we walked in, everyone turned to look at us. Why are these women in here? What's going on? And so we went outside, we talked to her. We had a very nice emotional moment with her where she started to cry as she was telling us about Mawa. And I asked, like, oh, are you very close with her? And she said she was there when Mawa was born, which, of course, later makes all the sense because, you know, it Turns out that she was Mawa's mom.

[Christopher Kelly]

Let's give a listen.

[Rebecca Everett]

She.

[Christopher Kelly]

She said that she is the mom. She's saying that she's the mom.

[Narrator]

Last time she. She doesn't want to tell us just because she was.

[Rebecca Everett]

Oh, so sorry.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

And so initially we're like, oh, my goodness. Well, how could that be? Later, as we were talking to Muhammad, he's also African, and so he pretty much walked us through it, and he said, you know, this is their business. They're immigrants. They really care about what other people in the community have to say. A lot of people in the community know that Mawa went missing, but don't know the full story of what happened to Mawa. So when he explained all this to us, you know, it made sense why she did what she did. It made sense that she didn't feel comfortable to be open and honest about her real identity.

[Christopher Kelly]

You find yourself thrust into complicated family dynamics and a lot of pain, trauma, blame, everything from hindsight removed. What's your take on that whole situation?

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

I think the takeaway is like, don't judge someone until you really know their logic or their reasoning or where they're coming from. This person has a different lived experience than me. They come from a different culture than I do, and this is why. And trying to meet them where they are.

[Christopher Kelly]

Mawa's dad ultimately decided against speaking to you and said it was too much and didn't want to revisit it. That leads me to another person who ultimately declined your requests to talk with us. Tiffany, of course, was the woman who got away, who escaped the clutches of Khalil and ultimately helped bring him to justice. Can you talk a little bit about trying to get Tiffany on the record?

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

So, initially, I found Tiffany Taylor on Facebook. I sent her a long message explaining what we were doing. She replied to me quickly, but she basically said that she has a manager now. Got in touch with him, and he said, she'll talk to you. She'll do whatever you want, but this is our rate. And, you know, we don't do things like that. Like, we're journalists. We don't pay for interviews. Her voice was so valuable to this podcast, but ultimately we couldn't make it work because she wanted to be compensated.

[Christopher Kelly]

Same question I asked before about Khalil. If you had one question to ask her, what would it be?

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

I think I would ask her, like, what she hopes from journalists or what she hopes from overall society now. Right. You know, she wants to be compensated for these projects. And I'm wondering You know, what is her reason for that? Maybe she was able to, I don't know, put food on the table, or is it because she's seeing or perceives that other people are profiting off her pain, off her trauma, and she feels like that's unethical.

[Rebecca Everett]

I guess what I'm most curious about is whether she, like, how she's doing after what she went through in terms of. We heard her speak at sentencing about, you know, how paranoid it made her, how it made her, you know, not want to have friends because of what Kahlil did to her. And I would hope that she, you know, maybe with a little more distance from it, was doing better. But I also, like. I wonder if she's, like, proud of herself for doing that, because she should be proud for outsmarting him and helping take him down.

[Christopher Kelly]

When you think about these five women, is there a detail that haunts you the most?

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

I think what haunts me is when he told Tiffany that he was used to bringing women in and out. You know, just thinking of someone agonizing and being tortured and, like, knowing what's happening but not being able to get out of that situation, that really, really haunts me because I can just picture him doing that to each of them.

[Christopher Kelly]

It's like knowing how horrible his actions were, what we don't know could even be more horrible.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

Exactly. And that's something terrible, terrible, terrible to think about.

[Rebecca Everett]

I read the testimony of crime scene investigators and the medical examiner for Joanne Brown's case, and there are details in there that I have not told you guys, and I'm not gonna say it right now that are just awful. And I think that is, again, kind of like with every case, there could be something like that. Right. But just the physical state that Joanne Brown was left in. She had cigarette burns. These are things that I'll never forget.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

So for me, another thing that's haunting is the fact that Sarah asked him if he was a serial killer. Because I feel like there was an instinct that she had, like, something inside her that told her, like, hey, maybe this guy's a total psycho. But you try to just push it away and say, like, no, I'm being paranoid.

[Christopher Kelly]

After the break, we're going to talk about updates on the case. As we learn in Someone's hunting us. The story of Khalil Wheeler Weaver is not from Finished. And, Rebecca, you have some new news for us on this front.

[Rebecca Everett]

Yes. Yeah. I don't want you to get too excited, but at Khalil's last court date, there was more back and forth with the judge about setting a potential trial date. I think it's pretty obvious now. The judge is, like, really sick of nothing moving forward on this case. Khalil's lawyer finally met with him, Buki Adatullah. And he told the judge, kahlil doesn't even want to talk about his case with Mawa Dumbia or going to trial or a potential plea or anything like that until his appeal, which is called a pcr, is finished. Because he just dreams he's going to get out of prison one day and, like, that's what he wants to focus on. And the judge basically said, well, tell him too bad. Like, tell him that's not going to happen. What if we talked about a trial date in January? Then the PCR argument and initial decision would be over. So it's the sad state of things that I'm like, oh, boy, a January trial date, but that's forever from now.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

Yeah, it's a whole year. Also, the fact that he thinks he gets to decide when they go to trial.

[Christopher Kelly]

And it speaks again to one of the underlying themes of the podcast, the absolute delay, injustice for these women, that it took forever to get anyone to take them seriously, to listen to them, to track down the perpetrator, and now to bring them justice. I want to play a part of the podcast that I find fascinating. And it's when you get the former chief of police in Elizabeth on the phone to talk about this case, and he's got other priorities.

[Rebecca Everett]

Yeah, they didn't believe her that she had been attacked.

[Christopher Kelly]

They believed that she was making comments on it because I really don't recall.

[Narrator]

So.

[Christopher Kelly]

And I gotta get going.

[Narrator]

Today is my 41st anniversary with my

[Christopher Kelly]

wife, and we're on our way out today.

[Rebecca Everett]

Okay, thank you for your time. I appreciate it.

[Christopher Kelly]

That, to me, is this story in a nutshell. I don't really care. I got a dinner reservation to make. Was that your reaction, too?

[Rebecca Everett]

Yeah, I think I'm almost, like, laughing in the clip because I'm just like, okay, okay, I'll leave you alone. You don't want to talk about this. But, you know, the earlier part of that phone call is me telling him who Tiffany was because he didn't remember. Now he was, you know, about to retire when this all happened. But as we know, most of the stuff, most of the worst stuff about how Tiffany wasn't believed, about how they interrogated her, called her a sex worker, like, said, you sell yourself. All of that didn't really come out and become public until the trial. So this guy was long retired before it became a problem. When he was there, I don't know if it even ever reached his desk because it was just another call at this seedy motel.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

But also, maybe that's the culture that they allowed or that they encouraged. You know, it comes from the top down.

[Rebecca Everett]

During that period of time where Tiffany wasn't believed, the public safety director in Elizabeth James Cosgrove, was in charge. And we actually wrote stories and broke that he was being investigated by the AG for using the N word, using, like, slurs against women and people of color, and he had to be forced out. Like, he wouldn't go. And so when I think about the fact that, you know, there was no. It doesn't seem like there was any punishment for what happened to Tiffany in terms of how they handled her case, I'm not that surprised.

[Christopher Kelly]

Is it hard to report a story like this and not feel a sense of despair, a sense of injustice that runs so deep that it can never be right?

[Rebecca Everett]

I had a dream about, like, just last week about Mawa. And I always have when I have these dreams. I'm. I, like, find. I'm, like, finding her. I'm, like, saving her or something like this. And I think that my brain, when I'm trying to sleep, is just trying to fix this horrible situation, and I can't. You know, we're journalists. We can bring it to bring it to light. That's all we can really do.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

Yeah, I feel the same way. No podcast we make, no article we write is going to right this wrong. But my hope is that the small difference we can make, or maybe big difference, is in the lives of these loved ones and that maybe our work is helping them to get the closure that they desperately want and that they desperately deserve. So for me, that's where the hope comes from that this is what I can do. Giving them a voice, amplifying their voices, because they have a voice, but we're amplifying them. This is what I can do. And so my hope comes in that I did it. We did it.

[Christopher Kelly]

Speaking of hope, the podcast ends with a beautiful scene on what would have been Mala's 24th birthday birthday. Daisy. Can you describe that scene?

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

So Janisha, Kiki, Deanna, they all gathered at a park in Newark by the water. Kiki's little daughter was there as well, and they had these beautiful balloons for her. A golden 2 and a 4 smaller pink balloons where we wrote messages for Mawa. Then they each went around saying a few words to Mawa. Some birthday wishes. And then they released the balloons up to the heavens where, you know, they were saying that Mawa was waiting to receive them. And so, you know, it was very emotional. There were many tears, but also laughter, jokes, sharing memories of Mawa and what she would be doing or what she would be saying. But at the same time, it's, you know, the sadness of knowing that, like, she should be here. Like, this girl should be here with her friends, maybe in this park, getting these balloons in person, and yet this is all they have left. And it's because of this man, this monster who did what he did.

[Christopher Kelly]

You guys will be there when that trial happens to. Oh, yeah, finish this story.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

We'll be there for sure.

[Rebecca Everett]

Yeah. And I really feel like I really look forward to the moment that we can tell Janesha, Deanna, and Kiki that it's happening, that we're going to court. Hey, do you want me to pick you up? Like, let's go.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

They're waiting for this. They're anxious for this. You know, a lot of people say, like, why does it matter? Like, he's already locked up. He's gonna be there for 160 years. Like, he's not getting out. Like, but it matters to them. It matters to them. They didn't get their day in court. They didn't get to face him and tell him what they want him to hear from them. So it definitely still matters.

[Christopher Kelly]

I'm Christopher Kelly.

[Rebecca Everett]

I'm Rebecca Everett.

[Daisy Kalavia Robertson]

And I'm Daisy Calavia Robertson.

[Christopher Kelly]

This has been a bonus episode of Someone's Hunting Us, a podcast from NJ.com and the Star Ledger.

[Rebecca Everett]

Thanks for joining us in the studio, Chris.

[Christopher Kelly]

Anytime, anytime.