292: The Comedy of The Beatles with Jeff Martin

Summary

Podcast Summary: Something About the Beatles - Episode 292: The Comedy of The Beatles with Jeff Martin

Introduction

In Episode 292 of "Something About the Beatles," hosted by award-winning author Robert Rodriguez, the focus shifts to exploring the comedic dimensions of The Beatles' music and career. Joined by Jeff Martin, a seasoned TV comedy writer, and George Martin, the legendary producer often referred to as the "Fifth Beatle," the episode delves into how humor was intricately woven into the band's personas, performances, and creative output.

Influences and Origins of Beatles' Humor

The conversation begins with an examination of The Beatles' foundational influences, particularly their connection to British comedy traditions such as The Goon Show and contemporaries like Peter Sellers and Spike Milligan.

• Jeff Martin [01:37]: "Would you please shut up? Shut up. Please be quiet."

• George Martin [14:51]: "Humor was their anchor."

Robert highlights how The Beatles' humor wasn't a mere accessory but a core component of their identity from the outset, shaping their interactions and artistic choices.

The Beatles' Comedic Personas

The discussion delves into how each member of The Beatles contributed uniquely to the group's overall comedic flair:

• John Lennon: Known for his sharp wit and penchant for wordplay, often employing irony and sarcasm.

• Paul McCartney: While primarily recognized for his musical genius, Paul occasionally infused humor, though George Martin suggests he wasn't as naturally comedic as his bandmates.

• George Harrison: Exhibited a dry, deadpan humor that complemented the group's dynamic.

• Ringo Starr: Brought a lovable, everyman charm, serving as the group's comedic anchor with his affable and sometimes goofy demeanor.

Integration of Humor in Music and Films

The Beatles masterfully integrated humor into their music and cinematic ventures, balancing serious artistic endeavors with lighthearted, comedic elements.

• "Yesterday" and "Act Naturally": George Martin points out the deliberate juxtaposition of a profound ballad with a playful Ringo-led track, illustrating the band's commitment to not taking themselves too seriously ([24:36]).

• "A Hard Day's Night": The film exemplifies their comedic prowess, with scenes showcasing their ability to infuse humor seamlessly into narrative storytelling.

  • George Martin [16:03]: "What's that? Isn't that beautiful. Isn't that great."

  • Jeff Martin [17:47]: "We'd like to do something now which we've never ever done before, and it's a track of our new LP."

The trio discusses specific scenes from their films, such as Ringo's silent comedy in "A Hard Day's Night" and the spontaneous humor that emerged during filming, highlighting the authenticity of their comedic expressions.

Reception and Legacy of Their Comedy

Upon their emergence, The Beatles faced skepticism and dismissal from mainstream media critics who underestimated their comedic and artistic depth.

• Newsweek Article [52:25]: "When Beatlemania first hit, they say visually, they are a nightmare... Their lyrics... are a catastrophe."

Despite initial criticism, The Beatles' blend of humor and music garnered immense popularity, challenging and redefining musical norms.

Comparisons to Other Comedy Troupes

Jeff Martin draws parallels between The Beatles and iconic comedy groups like the Marx Brothers, emphasizing their spontaneous humor and anti-establishment antics.

• Jeff Martin [38:30]: "They are so much better as a comedy troupe than any other rock band was or any other rock band could hope to be. That it's kind of miraculous."

George Martin concurs, noting the unique synergy that allowed The Beatles to excel both musically and comedically, a feat unmatched by their contemporaries.

Humor as a Strategic Shield and Tool

The Beatles strategically employed humor to navigate the pressures of fame and media scrutiny, using it both as a defensive mechanism and a means to endear themselves to fans.

• Jeff Martin [57:40]: "If you can pull it off, don't take any of this seriously."

This dual-purpose humor helped them maintain a relatable and charismatic image, fostering a strong connection with their audience.

Challenges in Sustaining Comedic Elements

While The Beatles excelled in infusing humor into their work, sustaining that comedic momentum proved challenging, especially as their music became more experimental and the band's internal dynamics grew complex.

• George Martin [85:04]: "Hard Day's Night seems so spontaneous and you can't sustain that."

The trio reflects on how later projects like "Magical Mystery Tour" struggled to replicate the effortless humor of their earlier endeavors, often hampered by overindulgence and shifting creative directions.

Conclusion

Episode 292 offers an insightful exploration into the often-overlooked comedic facets of The Beatles' legacy. Through the expert perspectives of Jeff Martin and George Martin, listeners gain a deeper appreciation of how humor not only complemented The Beatles' musical genius but also played a pivotal role in shaping their enduring appeal. The episode underscores that The Beatles' ability to blend levity with artistry was a cornerstone of their phenomenon, contributing significantly to their timeless status in music and popular culture.

Notable Quotes

• George Martin [16:27]: "Their instincts then was, okay, we're not going out that way. We are not ever going to stay pompous..."

• Jeff Martin [38:30]: "They are so much better as a comedy troupe than any other rock band was or any other rock band could hope to be. That it's kind of miraculous."

• George Martin [52:25]: "When Beatlemania first hit... Their lyrics... are a catastrophe."

• Robert Rodriguez [74:26]: "The Beatles then humor is there was somebody at the Cavern who described seeing the Beatles pre EMI as a musical comedy act..."

Timestamps of Key Discussions

• 14:06 - Introduction to Beatles' Comedy Sensibility

• 24:36 - Balancing Serious Music with Comedic Tracks

• 38:30 - Comparison to the Marx Brothers

• 52:25 - Initial Reception of Their Humor

• 85:04 - Challenges in Sustaining Comedic Elements

Final Thoughts

For enthusiasts who have yet to listen, this episode provides a comprehensive overview of how The Beatles' humor was interwoven into their music and public personas, offering a nuanced understanding of their multifaceted appeal. It is a valuable listen for anyone interested in the deeper, often hidden layers that contributed to the Fab Four's legendary status.

Transcript

[Robert Rodriguez]

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[Jeff Martin]

Would you please shut up? Shut up. Please be quiet.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Come on.

[Jeff Martin]

Still quiet please. Question Would you be quiet? Could you please sing something? No, sorry.

[Alison Bumstead]

Next question.

[Jeff Martin]

No, we need money first.

[George Martin]

Don't worry.

[Jeff Martin]

To K Cut that crap out. Cut that crap out. Worry. Is that a question?

[George Martin]

What do you think of the comment.

[Robert Rodriguez]

That you're nothing but a bunch of British Elvis Presley?

[Jeff Martin]

It's not true. It's not true.

[George Martin]

Make your music sounds to these people. I don't know.

[Jeff Martin]

It pleases them I think. Well they must do cuz they're buying it.

[George Martin]

Why does it excite them so much?

[Jeff Martin]

We don't know really. Form another group and be managers.

[Alison Bumstead]

Hello and welcome to episode 292 of Something about the Beatles podcast. I have a few announcements to make. First of all, let me do the setup to this show so you know what you're in for. Jeff Martin, professional TV comedy writer for decades frequent guests on this show. Favorite guest of this show. You remember the Fly on the Wall episodes and Truth and beauty and keyboards and other things that we have done through the years. He was first brought into the sappy orbit when a listener suggested doing a show on Simpsons who have done a number of Beatle themed episodes and that was how we met. And he's just a great Beatle mind and smart guy. Thinks deeply about Stu and it seemed like a logical thing to have this guy whose professional life is steeped in comedy weigh in on that aspect of the Beatles Personas and appeal and whatever other term you want to apply it to, that it was inextricably connected to their presentation beyond the music. And then something else came along that made it seem like it would be a really good conversation to have. And that is one of these series of academic publications that have been put out by Bloomsbury. There is the Beatles and fandom title. There was the Blackbird one and now this one. The Beatles and Humor came out about a year ago, subtitled Mockers, Funny Papers and Another Play. It is another collection of essays written across the spectrum by a number of people, edited by Katie Kapirch, Richard Mills and Matthias Heyman. And it was something I brought to the attention of Jeff. It's not something I would say for the casual fan, but certainly for the deep Beatles scholar. These books are absolutely all worth checking out. Maybe you can check them out at your local community college library. But in any event, there's a number of great essays in there. In fact, it was one friend of mine, Aviv Kamay, who contributed to it, turned in a great essay that I thought, you know what? This is really rich stuff to explore. And so I brought it to Jeff's attention. He had his own sort of thesis for me as well. So this show is and isn't drawn from the book. We got some ideas out of it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And definitely a lot of great stuff there.

[Alison Bumstead]

Jeff had some other things in recent episodes. We have talked about A Hard Day's Night. We had that show not that long ago. There's a lot of focus on the Beatles films in this, especially A Hard Day's Night. But other things too, ancillary to the Beatles. Humor that turns up in their music and other aspects, aspects of what they drew upon not just for songwriting, but it was an aspect that they projected from very early on, pre emi, pre record deal. It was just very much part of their Personas. So it's something we explore a bit in this conversation. I hope we do it justice. But it's one of those things that you're so into the subject, you're meandering.

[Robert Rodriguez]

All over the place. So it's a.

[Alison Bumstead]

It's kind of this informal conversation with a guy that I really enjoy talking to. So I can't claim we covered the subject to any great depth, but we certainly gave it an overview and maybe presented some things for you guys to think about as listeners and fans of the Beatles. But I would absolutely recommend checking out the book if you have the opportunity to. So there's that. On the subject of books, on the subject of books published by academic Scholars, good friend of mine of the show, Alison bumstead, newly coined PhD has got her first book project out finally. Not directly Beatle specific per se, but it is about rock journalism, something we've talked about on shows that she's been on before. Fan magazines in particular, and the title is, the formal title is Teen Set. Teen Fan Magazines and Rock Journalism. Don't let the name fool you. Now, if you're a listener to the show, then you definitely are probably very likely interested in what was going on in the 60s in rock journalism. This is stateside specific.

[Robert Rodriguez]

So not so much a discussion of.

[Alison Bumstead]

Disc or New Musical Express or Melody Maker, but really about fan magazines as a sort of overlooked component of the rock infrastructure throughout the 60s. It started out one way, very fan oriented, lightweight. And I think especially having teen in.

[Robert Rodriguez]

A title in the case of Teen.

[Alison Bumstead]

Set was something that made it very easy to dismiss and overlook by scholars of the 1960s rock journalism. It's not as though rock journalism began with the first issue of Rolling Stone or Cream or Crawdaddy. It was definitely something that took a while to come into being and adhere to the standards that we all revere in rock journalism now in terms of critical analysis relating to the artist as an artist and not just the sort of fan magazine stuff. So Teenset was pretty exceptional in a lot of ways in terms of being ahead of the curve in terms of seriousness. It started out created by Capitol Records initially, but then it became something covering everybody, not just their artists, and got a lot more serious. Judith Sims was the editor at a certain point and that's where it really took off. So anyway, the gist of Allison's book is to talk about that teen magazines more generally and just how they are this overlooked resource and component of rock journalism and, and the support and promotion of bands and artists during that era. So I wanted to draw your attention to this because coming in November, November 12th, we will be doing a live book launch online. And it's something not necessarily Beatle specific, but interesting nonetheless. So you could check out her book and you could, certainly without buying the book, check out this show where she'll be taking questions and I'll be asking questions. And so it's going to be this sort of virtual event for anybody interested on November 12th. 7:00 Central Time, 8:00 East Coast Time, 5:00 Pacific Time, and around the world, you'll have to look it up depending on where you're sitting. But anyway, that's what's going on and that leads to My third point about stuff going on. It's long been something I've had mind.

[Robert Rodriguez]

To do ever since the website got.

[Alison Bumstead]

Redeveloped a year ago for the Something about the Beatles podcast where you needed.

[Robert Rodriguez]

To supply your email address to get access to all the shows or something.

[Alison Bumstead]

I can't remember exactly how it was set up. It was something that the designer came up with because we had every intention of creating a newsletter, a SAPPI newsletter, probably published once a week, sent out once a week to announce upcoming shows, things going on, events such as this with Alison, things with me, public speaking events, my own book that's coming through the pipeline at present, other writing projects I'll be doing, etc, etc, all kinds of stuff. But I didn't want just to make it about me. You guys listen to the show because you're fans. So Beetle News will be presented. I will draw your attention to things that are out there that you might not be aware of, anniversaries happening the week that I send it out, just things like that. Because frankly, I've been really disillusioned for a while now with the social media platforms. All have got their pluses, but they also have many, many minuses beyond that. It's a hard thing to upkeep if you're going to be producing a show like this, bringing in guests, researching it, editing it, all that stuff. It's a lot of work just to do the show, much less keep up with the demands of a steady social media presence. Now, I'm not walking away from that completely, but I do think it's a valid thing. This is the most important thing of everything I'm saying here is that I want to proactively get your feedback going forward on everything, subjects to tackle on the show, guests to have on. What do you like? What don't you like? I really want to fine tune the work going forward so that the show becomes something more directed toward the service of the listener, if that makes sense. There is definitely a mixture of among the listeners of some people like this, some people like that, some people hate this, some people hate that. But I'm trying to get it focused to what are the things of optimum interest that are within my scope to deliver. So that's really, really something that I would like to focus on going forward. But I've got my own read on things, what I think is interesting to me and things to cover. But ultimately I don't want you guys getting frustrated or disappointed that why isn't he talking about this or why isn't this being covered. So I don't pretend to know everything and it would be a good useful direction of my energies to produce what you guys want. So I'm creating formally here an email list. This is not about spam. It is all about giving something of value to you guys as listeners on a regular basis. Beatle centric stuff. So to that end, if you want to, you can through the socials I've got going now, the one on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook, they were all sappy mechanisms for direct messaging. So you can do that if you want to be on this mailing list. Just give me your name and your email and I'll put you on the list. I ideally am shooting to begin this starting by the end of the year, but it may happen even sooner. We'll see how it goes. You'll see how big a job it is for me to handle. Otherwise you can Write directly to satb2010 satb2010 mail and get yourself on the list that way as well. To reiterate, this is going to be a pipeline for feedback. I'm going to be asking you guys questions, blasting it out there and taking in the responses. But also I'll be putting out some kind of weekly sappy newsletter. Upcoming shows, upcoming things in the news, new books coming out, new etc. Whatever's coming out, and a little bit of Beatle history as well. I just want to streamline this and put my limited time into the most productive channels possible for both our benefits. So see what you think and you can send me your contact info through the aforementioned Twitter, Instagram, Facebook channels. Or else write me directly sappy2010gmail.com I will put you on the list. This is not about spamming. You will not get sold anything. I mean I'll put things in there that's news. It's up to you if you want to buy it or not, but I am absolutely not selling your information to anybody. This is all about our relationship. You and me, podcast listeners, Beatle community. That's what it's about. Anyway, back to Jeff Martin and the show. Our conversation on the Beatles comedy kind of rambling talk, but that's the nature of things. I don't remember where we started it, but anyway, here you go.

[Robert Rodriguez]

If you want to think in terms of Beatles comedy sensibility applied to their music. Whenever they got a sense of getting little too high brow, that was an aspect that they tried to tamp down. When people tried to engage them as far back as 63, 64, they pushed back hard on any application of cultural significance to what they were doing. John's at the end of his life mocking William Mann for the Aeolian cadences and Paul has similar thoughts. So they have this sort of built in guardrail about taking themselves too seriously. So you've got John with this heavy psychedelic sermon he delivers with Tomorrow Never Knows. But then putting the Ringo malaprop on.

[George Martin]

It, putting a Ringoism as the title and doing it consciously, that was something I have to cite. There was an essay in the book by Aviv Kame.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes.

[George Martin]

That made the point. What they said was humor was their anchor. And I had certainly had a vague sense of this, probably most notably with the end of Abbey Road.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Her Majesty.

[George Martin]

Yes. Just that they had finished it off beautifully with a. I don't think it's, dare I say, Shakespearean couplet. The love you make is equal to the love you take, you know, sure. It's elegant, it's beautiful. And their instinct then was, okay, we're not going out that way.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right.

[George Martin]

We are not ever going to stay pompous, let you accuse us of this. And okay, yes, in the early days. Yes, they laughed off any. And there isn't anything intellectual about the early stuff now. Even once they started writing undeniably ambitious, sophisticated songs with Rubber Sholom, Revolver and sergeant Pepper, I had not totally realized just how often they would deflate it. The end of within you, without you.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes.

[George Martin]

The laughter. The end of After A Day in the Life, the inner groove of sergeant Pepper with that odd loop. And even like they're more sincere songs like Let It Be. What's that bracketed with? Right now we'd like to do Arc the Angels Come and right after that, Maggie May.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yep.

[George Martin]

And here's another example, okay. There, I think if Yesterday does mark the turning point of the whole world, old ladies whatever, saying, oh, maybe there's something there to the Beatles after all.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Transcendental moment.

[George Martin]

Yeah, Just that everyone's saying, oh, wait a minute, that's beautiful. That's a timeless ballad, you know, in any era, you know. And some call that more of a curse than a blessing and all that. I think it's beautiful myself.

[Robert Rodriguez]

An early clue to the new direction.

[George Martin]

Yes, yes. And also to just how much talent was in this band. But at any rate, think about it. That would have been an opportunity for the other Beatles to say, paul has written this beautiful song. We're real proud of him. Here you go, Paul. You know, isn't that. And afterwards, Isn't that beautiful? Isn't that great? Never not even close, but no.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right.

[George Martin]

I think George introduces him. What?

[Jeff Martin]

Thank you very much. Thank you. We'd like to do something now which we've never ever done before, and it's a track of our new lp. And this song is called Yesterday. And So for Paul McCartney of Liverpool, opportunity Nuts.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes, yes.

[George Martin]

And then after he does this lovely job of it, John says, thank you, Paul. That was just like him. Isn't that what he says?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, I think that was the Sullivan one. He gives them the flowers that detach from the stems, the roses.

[George Martin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Another one I had never.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay. They're totally taking the piss out of this high achievement of Paul's.

[George Martin]

Yes. And if I Fell, you know, a beautiful, sincere, painful love song. And how is it presented as a love song to Ringo?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right, right.

[George Martin]

In the movie.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. On stage. If I Fell over.

[George Martin]

Yes. There was a real consistency to that in a way I had not realized until I read that essay. And it's like, okay, good on them. They never took themselves seriously. Yeah. George appearing in the Ruddles and the.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Takeoff of them, or taking that low moment of his post Beatles career, the lawsuit over My Sweet Lord, not only turning it into that great song, this song with the comedic music video.

[George Martin]

Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

But then before that came out, going on Rutland Weekend Television, the pirate song, and sending it up.

[George Martin]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Something that you should have been. Something you just bury. You're so ashamed, Embarrassed by it. He runs with it.

[George Martin]

Well, speaking of the Beatles, just being in the British tradition is just that. I remember the video of Cracker Box palace where. Yeah. Just George wearing those. All sorts of costumes, wearing Big Ear. And it's very British. Do you remember Neil Ennis of what? The Bonzo Dudabi. And I think I got that. Yeah, yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And Rudles.

[George Martin]

Yeah, and the Rudles. And of course, there in Magical Mystery Tour, he performed a song called Shangri La on Saturday night live in 1977. And I believe it utterly confounded the audience. He was, you know, wearing some colorful costume with, you know, a mask and big ears. And we should say right now that a lot of this British humor doesn't make the trip. We get to skim the cream of it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes. Right.

[George Martin]

To do this, I listened to a couple of Goon shows and certainly there's an exuberance to it and it's fast moving and they're making funny voices and all that, but it is very much of post war Britain. It's very much of that time.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Comedic tropes, you Couldn't get away with now, right?

[George Martin]

Yes. Or couldn't get away with. I have no idea what they're talking about. Monty Python. I hooked right into that. I would stay up till after midnight, you know, faithfully, when I was a teenager to watch that every week.

[Robert Rodriguez]

It was British rock comedy.

[George Martin]

It was great. Oh, yeah. No, I just thought it was fantastic. And there was occasional things. I remember, every time they would mention the name Reginald Maudlin, the audience would burst out laughing. And so finally the other day I looked up, all right, who's original Maudlin? And he was. He was Home Secretary of Great Britain.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh.

[George Martin]

In early 1970s. And whatever a Home Secretary is, I don't know.

[Robert Rodriguez]

But see, that's the kind of thing I thought was funny for its own sake. Like Arthur touched Jackson.

[George Martin]

I loved it all. I loved it all.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Sometimes you laugh at the joke without really getting the whole message.

[George Martin]

Yeah. Absurdism is tricky. Now, something that's very much in the British tradition, there's the pricking of pomposity, self deprecation. But there's also that very intelligent silliness, the notion of these are extremely educated guys from Oxford and Cambridge.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right.

[George Martin]

Choosing to be silly on purpose, doing silly walks and then dropping in references to Wittgenstein and all that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And do you see an American parallel here?

[George Martin]

What, the Simpsons?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[George Martin]

You know, I actually, maybe that's immodest, but I look back and I wrote an episode of the Simpsons where Maggie goes to the Ayn Rand school for tots. How many people know about objectivism, you know, and. And that sort of thing?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Besides Rush fans.

[George Martin]

Yeah, yeah, right. And the beautiful thing about the Simpsons was nobody said, oh, no, we can't do that. People won't get it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right, right. So the right people will get it.

[George Martin]

Yeah, yeah. And the people. It's like I love Peanuts. When I was a kid, I didn't necessarily get everything, but you go, okay, I'll find out what that is. But I love this thing.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Like Mad magazine. Yeah, exactly.

[George Martin]

Love. Yeah, exactly. And when you're young, especially the way I was about Mad, the way John, the Beatles were about the Goons, it's, oh, you don't have to grow up. You can be silly when you're older. Now, the Beatles, they weren't from Oxford and Cambridge, but John obviously in particular had totally absorbed, particularly Lewis Carroll. You have to give the British credit for being superior wordsmiths. It sounds like you're, you know, you hear the accent and you go, oh, oh. They're so sophisticated. It sounds like thinking Someone's smart because they're wearing glasses. But you think back of, okay, the stuff the Beatles were reading as kids, Lewis Carroll, but also like J.M. barry, Peter Pan, Robert Louis Stevenson, Edward Lear, like the Owl and the Pussycat has a phrase, a runcible spoon. Just a made up word. And you read it and I think, oh, that's very Leninesque.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Sure.

[George Martin]

John had a genuine flair for those puns, that wordplay. Sherlock Holmes becomes Shamrock Walms. And Last Will and Testicle and all, all that stuff. It's just silly. You needn't overanalyze gibberish, right? But he was good at it and he was very much in that British tradition. And then it's really to the fore once they started writing more sophisticated lyrics, right. With the usual suspects front and center like I am the walrus and so forth.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I believe it might have been Aviv that made the point in the book that again was a pattern I never had picked up on before of how the Beatles sort of instinctively used Ringo as their grounding mechanism. We mentioned Tomorrow Never Knows, but the self awareness of getting above themselves whenever they did a song that was heavy or deep or forward leaning. And this is Capitol Records doing this. You can call it a coincidence, or maybe there was more thought than we give them credit for. But the singles given as examples yesterday balance with a Ringo song. Act Naturally, Nowhere Man, Flip Ringo song. What Goes On, Eleanor Rigby, Yellow Submarine. It's too profound to be just a coincidence, don't you think?

[George Martin]

Oh, it's obvious. Yeah. No, no. Once you look at it, there's an absolute clear line there. And what was, you know my name? The flip side of To Let It Be. Yeah, right. Yeah. So there you go. Yeah, right. The world was trying to call them gurus and sages and messengers and you have to hand it to them, they were having none of it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right.

[George Martin]

They kept all that at arm's length and okay, yeah, the Goon show influence. Yeah. As we say, going all the way back to three cool cats, honestly. But it's pretty glorious when they get to Yellow Submarine that they just effortlessly do that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes.

[George Martin]

George Martin would sure know how to produce it. And John would certainly know how to do the voices. You know my name if you want to know what Goon Shows are like. There you go.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. It's interesting that as those latter years got more and more troubled in the band, that that was the song they literally spent years working on. It was like a go to thing, you know. They started it in 67, returned to it in 69, adding just different touches along the way, as if in a way going back to where they once belonged. That their comedic common roots in Goon show was something to alleviate tension and whatever bad feelings they were having at that time.

[George Martin]

Yeah. You know, those are those overtly funny songs. And an early one dimension, I'd say, actually, is Misery. You and I have already, I say, have talked more about misery than probably any other podcast. But just quickly, to extend our record, just that supposedly a sad song. And obviously they're mocking it. And Ian McDonald, he said misery is essentially English in its dry self mockery. According to him, Capital thought. They listened to a song like that and thought, well, the Beatles will never sell in America.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Sure. I think that maybe not for no reason. That was left off the early Beatles.

[George Martin]

Right. As we say, a lot of British humor doesn't make the trade. I. I remember Mike McGear, Paul McCartney's brother.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes.

[George Martin]

Was on Howard Stern 30 years ago, and he's a comedian. He was in the scaffold and he made jokes, and Howard just kept saying, you know, I don't get it. It's a different sensibility. I don't get it. When Monty Python did make inroads in America, I do remember at the time, the TV would be like, hey, well, if you like that, hey, here's the Two Ronnies. When Three's Company was a hit, it was based on a British show called man about the House. And they tried syndicating that. It's terrible.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. I remember watching the end credits in the 70s of all in the Family based on Until Death Do Us Part. Sanford's Son, based on Steptoe and Son, and wondering, pre YouTube, pre Internet, it's like, wow, what are these shows like? And then eventually, years later, you get to experience them. Oh, okay. They took enormous liberties to make this work in America.

[George Martin]

Yeah, I haven't seen them. I bet they're not good. But I'm not being fair. I haven't seen them.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Well, Steptoe at least has the charm of Wilford Bramble in it.

[George Martin]

Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't know.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Were you a fan of EP Fab?

[George Martin]

Yeah, I haven't seen too many of them. I thought it was good.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, yeah. Or the Young Ones even going back to the 80s.

[George Martin]

Haven't seen it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay.

[George Martin]

Haven't seen it. So many of these shows have a great spirit to them.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes, exactly right.

[George Martin]

They're genuinely fun. And you know what I'm a fan of is I thought the Austin Powers movie that did a Fantastic job of capturing just. He's a secret agent and a rock star and a photographer.

[Robert Rodriguez]

He hit all the right notes in that. And it's funny if you know. Do you know Mike Myers personally?

[George Martin]

I've met him, yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay.

[George Martin]

Back when he was on snl. Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

But no, he's got, like a Liverpool background through his parents or something.

[George Martin]

Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. So it's, like, not surprising he was the guy to channel that sensibility into those comedies. It was almost like something he had to do because he had that steeped in him to get it out in some way. And boy, did he.

[George Martin]

Right. That movie really captures that spirit and adds onto it extremely good jokes and extremely well crafted bits.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[George Martin]

There's a fantastic moment in the second one where Michael York, I think Mike Myers Austin, asked some logical question about the plot, and Michael York says, I suggest you don't worry about that sort of thing and just enjoy yourself. And then Michael York looks at the camera and says, that goes for you all too. Right?

[Jeff Martin]

Yeah.

[George Martin]

If you can pull it off, like with Duck Soup or something like that. If you can pull it off, don't take any of this seriously. Or Airplane. You know, the first airplane.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, yeah.

[George Martin]

If you can keep there in the bubble, great. It's a thing. I'm not down on it. I'm saying it's difficult.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right. We keep using this word in this conversation. Miraculous. As applied to the Beatles. You can apply that all day long to their music and their timing and their phenomenon. Just becoming this thing that 60 years later, still has legs, still is as compelling and powerful and needed as it ever was. But just in this conversation of comedy, and you more than anybody, having this insider knowledge on what it takes to create it and put it across and make it land. And they make it look so easy. Even when they're not before the cameras, they're just giving the news conference or an interview or something like that. It's like in their DNA. It's amazing.

[George Martin]

I'll give you a personal example of that, is these movies are. They'll put on a filter effect. They'll do very fast editing. They'll go to fast motion. They'll speed things up. I've had bits on Letterman where you shoot it and you go like, dog gone it. This isn't. This was funnier in my head, and I will admit that. And I've resorted to. Can we speed it up?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. That contrived sort of Hail Mary. Yeah. It's like a key change in a song.

[Jeff Martin]

Yeah.

[George Martin]

Yeah, totally. Then I've Done that. And it's like, okay, it's gone all the way from painful to acceptable now that it's in fast motion or adding a sound effect or things like that. But I can only tell you I don't come out of that proud. I come out of it relieved and determined to have a sturdier bit next time.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. So I don't think the Beatles had to resort to that very often.

[George Martin]

No, they didn't.

[Jeff Martin]

Your plans for tours for this year and next year? We're going to Europe next week. Next week, Sunday. And then we come back and we go off to America for two and a half weeks. Telly. Oh, we do the Ed Sullivan. Good old Ed. Ed Sullivan. Hi, Ed. Is he on? Oh, he's watching. He's watching in this one. Look, there he is. All right, Ed. Mrs. Ed. I missed her.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Ed, it's one thing to talk about the Beatles and all the conscious attempts they did at comedy, whether it was TV skits or movies. What's that?

[George Martin]

We're just talking now, right?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, we're just talking. Yeah.

[George Martin]

Okay. Okay.

[Robert Rodriguez]

But I thought, probably paralleling your own thought, that humor permeates absolutely everything they did, including their music. And that in itself is worth examining. So I was very happy. And who better than a guy whose whole career has been comedy?

[George Martin]

Well, I put in the time preparing for this and enjoyed it very much. But it is a rich topic. It's one of these, you know, when it was first suggested, I thought, well, okay, great, and maybe I'll finally keep it to an hour, and who knows? I'll try.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I don't think it's possible.

[George Martin]

I don't either. I don't either bet against it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right.

[George Martin]

That's all I'm saying. But it is a genuinely rich topic, and this will be a lot of fun.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, it's like sort of hidden in plain sight. Yes, we know they were charming and they were funny and all that stuff, but as far as a real examination, a year ago, I had the guy on Steve Mateo who had done the book on the Beatles films, and we did sort of an examination of Dick Lester's film craft and a little bit about the history of A Hard day's night. But 60th anniversary, I had four First Generation fans on the show. Two of them were Brits, and I think at least three of them were academics. So besides being 11 years old seeing A Hard Day's Night in theaters when it came out, they spent a lot of professional career learning and thinking deeply about film craft, about culture and the Social aspect of the film. And humor, of course, Liverpuddleian humor and the strain of Irishness that comes through liverpuddling humor. So just that film alone, you can go layer and layer and layer and layer down and not reach bottom. There is so much to talk about. So in this conversation where we're given like an overview of their whole of their career, it's going to be bottomless.

[George Martin]

I'm glad to hear that because there's stuff to say about that specifically. And we'll talk, you know, liverpuddly and humor and all that, and we can touch on it, but I'd rather go deeper in the ways each individually was funny. And so we might hit some of the same topic, but. Well, if we do, we do, I guess. And exactly, you can always get the scissors out.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Well, I'm glad that this is something that really excited you as a Beatle fan to dive deep into, because not only your unique perspective, career wise, the way you would, I would gather, approach humor versus we, the recipients, the customers, as it were, process it. And there's the Beatle fan aspect to it. You've dived deep into every aspect of it. And it's just something, like I said, off Air is hiding in plain sight. It's an aspect that not until this book came along, after we'd already talked about doing this. And this is the Beatles in Humor Mockers, Funny Papers and Other Play, edited by Katie Caperch, Richard Mills and Matthias Heyman. So that put it all in this scholarly framework, a series of essays. And I will be straight up, up front. I've not been able to get through the whole of the book because it is scholarly. I'm not an academic and I try my best. But just to present for the listeners here what they've attempted to do with this book, which is really a series of essays. The book argues the Beatles humor should not be considered separate from the music and other artistry. Without a doubt, the Beatles longevity is connected to their collective sense of humor as well as other comic, comedic and playful elements present in their musical, cinematic and other visual texts. That's a lot of highfalutin language there, but I think we get the drift. Four parts made a whole, with each member of the band versed in the comedic tools of irony, sarcasm, wordplay and even nonsense. John, Paul, George and Ringo complimented each other, but they played different instruments, literally and figuratively. An observation Oliver Lovesey makes as he summarizes the Beatles comedy. Having all members of the band showcase their talents was a feature of the variety review medium in which the group emerged. They perfected the press conference and photo shoot as comedy fests, and their first two comic films hugely boosted their profile. Just as earlier they'd performed a spoof of A Midsummer Night's dream, available on YouTube. George Martin, the producer, had recorded Peter Sellars, and his work with the comic genius greatly elevated Martin in their estimation and no doubt facilitated their willingness to experiment with often comic sound effects. And the band created remarkable comedy set pieces such as, you Know My Name, look up the Number. So it is something that is an absolutely key element of their appeal and, as I say, their longevity. And you just contrast it to other groups that may have had foamy moments or the one liner here and there, but they have four distinct personalities, each with a different aspect that they project at the same time, complementing each other as a foursome. One of the things that I put on the table in the recent Hard Days night discussion we had in the early reviews of the film, you saw people comparing them as like this latest iteration of the Marx Brothers. And I think that was for lack of any other precedent to least of all a rock and roll movie to compare them to. What do you think about that? Is that something you've given a lot of thought to as a guy that has done a lot of exploring this world?

[George Martin]

The comparison of the Marx Brothers. It's easy to see why people would do that because they're these wise guys being impudent to authority with them dealing with the man on the train, the TV director, George's scene with the marketing guy. It's like Groucho dealing with his cabinet in Duck suit. Right, right. So you can see it. And the interesting thing about that is at the time, oh, they're the new Marx Brothers. And, okay, it turns out they weren't. They made one more movie with help and that we both like. But Diminishing Returns. They kind of made one more silly movie, Magical Mystery Tour, that turned out to be one too many, I'd say, and that was that as far as that goes. So you could look back on it and say, okay, they weren't the Marx Brothers. Turn it from another angle. They are so much better as a comedy troupe than any other rock band was or any other rock band could hope to be. That it's kind of miraculous.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Is it another way to say they just had talent to burn in every media you put them in?

[George Martin]

They really did. I mean, if you accept the premise that the Beatles are the world's favorite thing, well, to be that you're Going to have to have a lot going for you.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right, right.

[George Martin]

Just beyond catchy tunes.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And to bring that to the present day, some people might say that the world's favorite thing nowadays is Taylor Swift, but that's a whole different kind of phenomenon. I cannot get through. An entire song of her is like, know it by heart. I know little bits here and there. I've not seen her acting or comedy chops to any extent, except she was on SNL years ago. I do remember that. And I remember it being funny. It was okay.

[George Martin]

Hay is for horses and chickens and fish.

[Jeff Martin]

Hit me three times and I'll grant you your wish.

[George Martin]

Three, two, one. Does he get it?

[Robert Rodriguez]

But she's not really. It's not something you think about when you think of Taylor Swift. Mostly what I think about is marketing.

[George Martin]

Right. Okay, look, why was Elvis such a big deal? He was the best singer, the best mover and the best looking guy. Well, that's a lot.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[George Martin]

Was he funny? No, I wouldn't say particularly, but the Beatles were all those things and they were funny. Just a quick story. When I first met you was years ago, the podcast on the Beatles and the Simpsons and you recorded separately my fellow Simpsons writer David Mirkin. And at one point in the interview, just talking about the leading British comedy troupes, the Goon show in the 50s and beyond the fringe in the 60s and Monty Python in the 70s. And Merkin asserted that not only were the Beatles fans and friends with these guys, he thought they were very much part of that tradition. They were in the middle of it. And at the time I thought, that's maybe a little bit of a stretch. Comedy and music are different things. But when this topic got floated last year and the more I got into it, I came to think, no, Merkin was absolutely right. So here's the funny quick story is I'm at Conan O'Brien's Christmas party this last year and there's Merkin talking to a small group of people. And I think, oh, I'm going to go over and tell him what I just told you, that he was right about that. So I go over. Hey, Dave. You know. And among the handful of people he was talking to was Eric Idle.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Perfect.

[George Martin]

Yeah. Yeah. No, and I'm afraid that's the end of the story because. Yeah, I mean, I wish I could say. And then I asked Eric and he told me something about the Beatles and their sense of humor that no one's ever told me. No, but anyway, I thought that was very uncanny. And if someone else in the group had been Ringo, I'd. Okay, forget it. I'm living in a simulation.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right. It would have been very interesting to get his take. I wonder if anybody's ever asked him that. And maybe it's impossible for him to be objective because he was so tight with George and maybe too close to see it, but maybe he could, maybe with the perspective of decades after that. Because I floated the question if the Beatles were at least you could sort of see in the tradition of the Marx Brothers, in the sense of this anti establishment, anarchic, four distinct personalities in that tradition as filtered through the Goon show sensibility because they're very English. These guys were all big fans of the Goons and as luck would have it, they get hooked up with their producer so that you have a direct pipeline to that. And then of course, they meet Peter Sellers and Spike Milligan and end up having interactions and all that stuff. So it would make sense that they certainly would have been influenced as young guys by a comedy show they loved. You know, that stuff happens now.

[George Martin]

Well, John always said his big influences were Lewis Carroll and the Goon Show. And once you get into this, even beyond the ties that I might have already known about, we'll just. George Martin, we know he produced the Goons. He mostly produced comedy records. That's where he made his career. And he was very early on to Peter Sellers. And then you find out like that Peter Cook had a comedy club in London, the Establishment. One of the performers at it was Eleanor Braun.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Wow.

[George Martin]

From help. And then Peter Sellars is everywhere. Ringo is in the Magic Christian. John Cleese worked on the script of the Magic Christian. George goes on to finance Life of Brian. I think Eric Idle actually might have said something like, oh, well, George loved comedy then. Of course, we knew that. But. Well, one thing, the fact that George appears in the Ruddles Special in disguise as a reporter obviously shows he approves of it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Jeff Martin]

There have been continued allegations the Rutle Corps is going bankrupt. Eric Manchester, the Ruttles press agent, are these allegations true?

[Robert Rodriguez]

No, no, no, They're.

[Jeff Martin]

They're conjecture, you know, they're sort of rumor. I think you find that where you get success, you'll always find this sort of rumor.

[Robert Rodriguez]

No.

[Jeff Martin]

So the stories of the theft, they not true also? No, they're greatly exaggerated. Greatly exaggerated.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And he was the one that had made the quote about his belief that the spirit of the Beatles as they're winding down just as Python is taking off the torch was sort of passed. Whatever the creative group spirit the Beatles had Possessed they then passed along to the Monty Python troupe.

[George Martin]

Yes, I thought it was a stretch a few years ago when Mirkin said it and studying for this I came to think that's absolutely true well one.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Of the things I pulled out of this book the Beatles then humor is there was somebody at the Cavern who described seeing the Beatles pre EMI as a musical comedy act well that's almost.

[George Martin]

How George Martin took them of course.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah but to recognize what that really means especially when you're looking at the whole of comedy and music and stage performing and all that stuff it's like pre emi, pre Brian they sort of saw themselves that way like there were no hard boundaries at least when they were in Liverpool versus where they had a mock shout in Hamburg where it was all business and six hour stretches but amongst their people, amongst the Liverpudlians, amongst that strain of Ireland in Liverpool it gave them license to be that and there's plenty of accounts of Jerry Marsden who post pacemakers was a bit of a comedy figure in Britain did that sort of thing so you can't necessarily say it was unique to the Beatles it was part of the atmosphere, part of the vibe, part of the place, the culture versus the Big Three or Swinging Blue Jeans or other acts that work that same circuit but the Beatles definitely possess that and you see post Brian once they're toned down and put in suits as it were Lennon is still the class clown he's still the one doing the funny accents on stage, doing the cripple impressions he's gonna keep that going for the duration of their touring years so it absolutely is a huge part of their Personas and what they saw as valid when they were on stage but it wasn't just.

[George Martin]

On stage cutting up at the Cavern Listen to the Decca auditions.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh yes.

[George Martin]

You know, I'm just saying. And this doesn't even necessarily do them credit or show good judgment on their part but the fact that they're trying to get a recording contract and they're doing three cool cats chic of Araby but it's totally making your point that John is doing his funny Peter Sellers goon show voices while trying to get a recording contract in a way that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Must have aligned with Brian it's always described to him well he picked their set list to showcase their versatility I don't know if that's been researched enough to find a smoking gun evidence that that is actually what happened and that they blamed him for their failure because they weren't focused where they should have been but at least it was in the knowledge that these are the songs that go over well at the Cavern. So if they've got that appeal to our audience, then maybe it's something that can translate to record. This is Lawrence Lanahan, journalist, musician and host of Rearranged, an Osiris Media podcast about music arranging. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. We're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment like horns and strings, or doing a cover version of a song. Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustic, even tiny decisions like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turn of phrase. It's all arranging. Rearranged Episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions, like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can. How can the sound of a song change the meaning you take from it? Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. Tune in to Rearranged and maybe it'll happen for you, too. Learn [e-mail] Osiris.

[George Martin]

Hey, what's up, you guys? This is Reid Mathis. I made a podcast called the Gifts of Improvising. Let's come the Gifts of Improvising.

[Robert Rodriguez]

That's coming out on Osiris.

[George Martin]

We talked to all your favorite improvisers, Natalie Cressman, Marco Benento, Tom Hamilton, Aaron.

[Jeff Martin]

Magner, Holly Bowling, Bill Kreutzman and Jay Lane.

[George Martin]

So what, you're doing a podcast?

[Jeff Martin]

Yeah, doing a podcast.

[George Martin]

So don't fear if you hear a foreign sound to your ear. We need the gifts of improvising. Improvising. It's all a bit of a mystery to me that they went from that to, scarcely a year later, they're churning out much better stuff, much more professional stuff. It's always been odd to me that the best they had at their first recording session is Love Me Do. And famously, George Martin wasn't impressed with any of their songs, particularly. And I think he was right. What, like Dreamers do or Love of the Loved or that whole batch.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Hello, little girl.

[George Martin]

Yeah, yeah. And that famously, he didn't think that much of their music. And he was taken with them, their personalities. He thought they were funny, fun. I was happy when I was with them, he said. So at Decca, I would say the comedy held them back. And then at Parlophone, it got them over the line.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, absolutely. It's funny. You wonder, getting inside his head at that moment, should I produce them? As a comedy act, or should I go with the rock and roll? There was a crossroads there.

[George Martin]

Right. And even a few years after that, when they were thinking the next phase of their career, didn't Paul and John say, well, we might do comedy songs, you know? And if you're thinking of the White Album, of course, is full of parodies and pastiches. Something that is fun to talk about is, as you're saying, should you produce them as a comedy act, is. It's really remarkable if you go back to the first stages of Beatlemania, just how widespread the opinion was that the whole thing was a joke.

[Robert Rodriguez]

You talk about the establishment media regarding them as such.

[George Martin]

Yes, some thought it was an enjoyable joke and some thought it was a stupid joke, but the mainstream consensus opinion was, this is nothing to be taken seriously. And here, like the Newsweek article here, I'm just going to read it. When Beatlemania first hit, they say visually, they are a nightmare. Tight, dandified, Edwardian beatnik suits and great pudding bowls of hair. Musically, they are a near disaster. Guitars and drums slamming out a merciless beat that does away with secondary rhythms, harmony and melody. Their lyrics, punctuated by nutty shouts of yeah, yeah, yeah are a catastrophe. A preposterous farrago of Valentine card romantic sentiments. And the article ends with the prediction the odds are they will fade away, as most adults confidently predict. So it's thought of, this is going to be like Davy Crockett, just a little something that'll come and go. And didn't Edwin Newman say, if this is the mercy sound, bring us no mercy? Something like that. Okay, that was the opinion. Kids are stupid. These guys are terrible. And of course, a year later, they're turn. They're writing things like, well, First Hard Day's Night was really funny, was a genuinely good comedy. And after a while, they're writing timeless melodies like yesterday. And then they're recording a series of album masterpieces. And the same Newsweek three years later with Sgt. Pepper is saying that they're the obvious poet laureates, you know, of Great Britain. But it's just fun to remember everybody and everyone who had that opinion initially that they were laughable, just kind of, you know, shut up and hoped people wouldn't remember that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right, right.

[George Martin]

But you go back and read contemporaneous stuff, and I would say the number one thing was the haircut. People could not get past the hair, which is pretty much the same hairstyle that Jimmy Carter took into the White House 12 years later. People could not stop talking about that and I'd say number two was that they had a funny looking drummer named Ringo. And number three, was that one of their big hits? They say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

That was quite the hook.

[George Martin]

Yeah. And that was enough to dismiss the Beatles.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. It's interesting that it almost seems personal, the way they pile on this overkill of criticism. It's like they owe you money or something. What are you projecting? Where's all this hostility coming from? And I'm sure you could find the exact same things, or not, if not worse about Elvis not that long before there's some awful stuff written about him and the attempts by mainstream platforms to humiliate them. Steve Allen being a famous one. Oh, sure. Saying it to the Hound dog or reciting the words to be Bapalula as if Merzy Doates was some profound piece of poetry a generation before.

[George Martin]

Well, you be careful what you say about Taylor Swift. It's the lesson of that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right, exactly. At your own risk.

[George Martin]

Yeah, A little bit of that, even with the Simpsons that I lived through, was that, you know, someone like poor Barbara Bush was saying she thought it was stupid. And George H. Bush said, we need more families like the Waltons than the Simpsons. And I didn't take it a miss. I thought, oh, oh, you're gonna.

[Robert Rodriguez]

It's a badge of honor.

[George Martin]

That's not gonna help you, is all I'm saying. And people came down hard on him, said, this is a well written show. This is very well done and funny. You. They apologized.

[Robert Rodriguez]

You see that over and over again. Was it not that long after that the Dan Quayle, Murphy Brown thing, right?

[George Martin]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. They're stuck in the one playbook.

[George Martin]

Yeah. The kids are better off with two parents. Yep. No, you gotta. Don't be too hasty to say what the kids like is stupid. You never know, right? Anyway, there was some hostility, but even people who couldn't hear how good the music was yet there was especially. Well after the press conferences and even then, more quickly followed by Hard Day's Night. Quite a few people said, okay, their music's stupid, but they themselves are kind of likable and funny.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Because if you look at the pattern, and we're not British, but I would imagine, knowing the history, the way we do that Royal Variety Performance. This is a high prestigious gig. In the intro to Twist and Shout, where Lennon lets loose with that one liner before the royals. That had to be this magic thing for the media to glom onto. They're already reporting they've just coined the term Beatlemania. This fad, this explosive dynamic fad of which we've not seen since Elvis. But wow, these guys are cheeky. They're funny.

[George Martin]

Yeah, Cheeky is the word.

[Jeff Martin]

Yeah.

[George Martin]

They're likably impudent. And again, that's very. The goons were making fun of the military and apparently beyond the fringe, their big breakthrough bit was Peter Cook doing like an imitation of Harold McMillan who was the Prime Minister in the early 60s. And you know, I'm sure it's spot on and. But from here, who knows?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, but you see popular entertainment, this ephemeral thing meant for teenagers sort of drifting into social commentary obliquely with the Beatles there. And then the next big thing in terms of putting them in a comedic light is the JFK press conference that you allude to where this is the American press getting to measure them up in the flesh. A moment that should have been terrifying for them. This country they've held in such esteem for so long, they're finally here. Yes, they've got the number one record in the country, but they still haven't really gotten the measure of it yet. And here's the press, this tough American press, trying to get the measure of them. And here you see them implementing humor not just as a defensive deflective thing, but as a weapon, as like a charm offensive. The one liners, especially the Elvis one. What do you think about them thinking he was four? Elvis Presley? It's not true. It's not true.

[George Martin]

Hilarious.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Beautiful.

[George Martin]

It's a tour de force, that. And in a theme that's going to come up later, three of them have a home run because Ringo has. There's a little tease. Ringo has his. You know, when are you going to get a haircut? And George just in that beautiful dry delivery. I had one yesterday. And John, you know, will you sing something? And John, just now we need money first. You know, they were even 60 years later hilarious.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes. What was the line about? What's the secret to your success? If we knew that, we'd form a group and be managers.

[George Martin]

Yeah. A lot of the world said, okay, they're fun, they're quick wit. Yeah. You can like these guys, right? And then a few months later when A Hard day's night and everyone says, well, believe it or not, oh, here, you know, I've actually, the New York Times review says this is going to surprise you, but Hard Day's Night is a whale of a comedy. Sure. The frequent and brazen. Yeah, yeah. Yang maybe grading it has a Moronic monotony, but at least an intelligent awareness of the absurdity of the Beatles craze. So in preparing for this, I've seen Hard Day's Night many times, of course, but I sat down and watched it with my younger daughter, Jenna, and it was great seeing it through fresh eyes. And she is a professional comedy writer. She's writing for the Frasier reboot now.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Is she a Beatle fan?

[George Martin]

Yes, she is. And Beatle fan. Comedy fan, but had not seen Hard Day's Night. And as many times as I'd seen it watching it, I just thought, this is absolutely miraculous. Even if they're not ultimately the Marx Brothers, it is miraculous that three of these four guys, they're all charming, and three of the four are hilarious. Hilarious in distinctly different, instantly identifiable ways. And if you watch something like Herman's Hermits. Hold on. That's catastrophically bad. And actually, yesterday I watched Having a Wild Weekend, The Dave Clark 5 movie.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Really?

[George Martin]

Yeah. Okay, it's not that bad, but you'd never confuse the Dave Clark Five for hilarious comedic performers. But the Beatles, you know, there's SNL cast that aren't as good as they are, and I'd love to just get right into it. Okay, well, Ringo, a little man making his way in a big, scary world. He's got the humble charm, great big expressive eyes. I'm thinking like the opening when the lady in the train car beckons to him and he just does a little mime, like looking around. What? Who, me? Like that? It's fantastic. It couldn't be done better. It's worthy of Harpo.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes. That's the astonishing thing. These guys had no training, no aspirations, really, for this thing. Pulling off comedy, as you well know, is not for amateurs.

[George Martin]

No.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And they do it so effortlessly. When you're good at something, make it look easy. And, yeah, they're playing caricatures of themselves, but there's subtlety and nuance involved in this. And just what you described, that pantomime. Yes. It's perfect.

[Jeff Martin]

Ringo was very good.

[George Martin]

He was.

[Jeff Martin]

He's a good lad. They're saying he's a chaplain. Do you think he's a new chaplain? Oh, yeah, he's an old one.

[George Martin]

Yeah. Ringo, you know, could be a silent comedian. Yeah. In terms of that, just jumping right in. George is astonishingly good. He, like, bats a thousand in that movie. He's got that deadpan dry delivery and something that occurred to me that I never thought before or never heard, but he is so similar to Peter Cook. Peter Cook, of The beyond the Fringe. And later Peter Cook and Dudley Moore, who. He even looks like him. And his specialty was very dry monotonal monologues. And he had one where the big line in it is, I would much prefer to be a judge than a coal miner because of the absence of falling coal. Just that sort of dry thing. And if you look at the movie, for my money, George just bats a thousand every ten minutes. He will give a hilarious reading of a line. And he's barely. He just turned 21. Have you. You've seen the interview on his 21st birthday, like two weeks after he'd done Ed Sullivan. In that interview, he says, well, what's next? And George said, I'll carry on with this until I become fed up. That's so George, instead of saying, holy cow, I just turned 21 and the whole world's at my feet, and I get to hitch a ride Lon Lennon and McCartney's brilliance. And, you know, this is great and all that. And instead. And I would say, I think maybe Alan Owen, the screenwriter for Our Days Tonight, really earned his money with George's solo scene with the marketing guy. Just that the guy says, you can be replaced. And George. I don't care. The guy asked George, can you read lines? And George says, I'll have a bash. And obviously that is his acting style. Just like, okay, sure, you know, I'll do it. And he is so good in them. He does not miss in the movie, actually, right from the top. Right from him falling down.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes.

[George Martin]

When they run down the street.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes.

[George Martin]

What a lucky break. And the fact that he, you know, Pretty hard fall.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes. I feel it every time I see that sequence.

[George Martin]

I know I kind of wince. And he gets up and, you know, starts running. Yeah, that's getting a little off topic. But later, when they're running in the field and they go to fast motion, they go to slow motion, it sort of reinforces the feeling that they're like these magical beings.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[George Martin]

You know.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Well, that's the aspect of the film. It took me years to sort of put it together and articulate it in my own head, is that it's this tug of war, this tension between the straight up. This is real life, black and white documentary, handheld camera aspect. And then these moments of sheer fantasy. Jon in the bathtub, them on the bike, running along the train, things like that. I remember being shocked the first time I saw that. Getting into the beatles in the 70s, like, what the hell just happened?

[George Martin]

Yeah. When they're suddenly outside the train going, hey, mister, can we have our ball back.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[George Martin]

And the thing is, all the moments like that that were beautifully in the movie are the Beatles. Doing that stuff is so much more enjoyable than Norm telling Shake, don't be taller than me, you know, or anything like that.

[Jeff Martin]

Ringo, what are you up to? Page five. Hey, he's reading the Queen. That's an in joke.

[George Martin]

You know, I do have a new favorite moment in Hard Day's Night from watching it again. There's a scene when Ringo is fleeing the theater and George walks by and says, hey, Ringo, you know what just happened to me?

[Jeff Martin]

No, I don't.

[George Martin]

And Ringo says, no, I don't. I knew George had something on his head. I just sort of thought it was a lampshade or something. But for the first time I noticed it is one of the hats that the showgirls who are on the same bill as the Beatles, that they're eyeing and flirting with throughout the movie. He's wearing one of the showgirls hats.

[Robert Rodriguez]

So totally on brand for George.

[George Martin]

Yeah, well, he's delivering it in his laconic style. And yet the clear implication is that whatever just happened was something totally decadent.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes, yes. Hamburg all over again.

[George Martin]

Yeah, yeah, we'll never know. There's a. It's basically, of course, a G rated movie, but there's a few subtle hints in it that the Beatles weren't choir boys. When Paul is talking to a showgirl in the background, at one point she put her hand over his mouth like he clearly just said something out of line. And also when they're dancing in the club, I had never noticed this. The girl John is chatting with has kicked off her shoe and John has cradled her bare heel in his hand. You have to look for it to see it. Had you ever noticed that?

[Robert Rodriguez]

You know, that's exactly the kind of detail I think that most men wouldn't have picked up on. But I bet women did watching that.

[George Martin]

Yeah. And perhaps thrilled to it. Well. Well, anyway, yeah. Even as many times as I've seen that movie, there's always something you hadn't noticed before.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes, there is. And it always makes you wonder. It's too bad that maybe when all the participants were still willing to talk about it, that more stuff wasn't asked about the making of that film specifically. What I wonder about is what were the ad libs and what were the things, the happy accidents or things like that? Because I think in their interviews they said, well, it was scripted. Alan Owen hung out with us and got the gist of how we communicate and all that stuff and captured our personalities and dynamic. But there's so many things in there that seem to be so completely random with some of the things that you're describing there that I just wonder how many little moments slipped into the film. The Beatles own spontaneous exhibition of humor that Lester certainly recognized. Oh, that's a keeper. We're using that. Things like that.

[George Martin]

Well, all credit to Alan Owen and all credit to Richard Lester. But I do believe that the main force making it a great comedy was the comedic sensibility of the Beatles themselves. Remarkable for a band, for a band.

[Robert Rodriguez]

For musicians, for guys who weren't pros. And as we've had from this conversation, you can ascribe some of it to that Liverpool comedic Irish sensibility that they grew up singing, steeped in what they absorbed through the comedic influences of goons and whatever TV they were watching and things like that. Certainly that kind of cheekiness and standing up to authority and all that was something that made them particularly interesting and engaging to American fans watching that. It's like, wow, here's this band that are completely not in awe of the establishment forces around them. That's something, as an adolescent watching there, thinking, oh, yeah, right on. That's cool. You want that? And it's something that was probably a part of their normal sensibility. I mean, we know, going back to the whole. Is there anything you don't like? Well, for start, I don't like your tie. That's how they operated.

[George Martin]

Yep. Now, well, they said of Liverpool, the sayings are all like, you have to laugh to survive.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes.

[George Martin]

Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And it is really something that I think as you more mature and get passionate, your initial wave of fandom, and you're starting to watch it as a film and not a Beatles film, you start to pick up on things like the George ad agency scene. That is such a standout performance.

[Jeff Martin]

We'd like you to give us your opinion on some clothes for teenagers. Oh, by all means. I'd be quite prepared for that eventuality. Well, not your real opinion, naturally. It'll be written out in your learned. Can he read? Of course I can. I mean, lines, Ducky. Can you handle lines?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Well, I'll have a bash from start to finish. Everything about it is so pitch perfect. Just to relate a little personal anecdote, a buddy of mine, we're like lifelong Beatle fans, I was over at his house recently for the first time in a long time, and I noticed in, like, his music room, there was this random piece of artwork, sculpture, thing with a lot of springing projectile like porcupine quills coming off of it. And it's so not him to be an art guy at all in that sense. And I just like flecked a little bit.

[Jeff Martin]

And I go, you don't see many of these nowadays, do you?

[Robert Rodriguez]

And he just started rolling on the floor laughing. He goes, you just justified that. My wife didn't want me to buy that. I'm like, the right people will get it. And you just made it all worthwhile. So it's like you have these little things that you file away in your brain and then trot them out in the appropriate moment. And so I guess that made it all worthwhile for him.

[George Martin]

Well, extremely trivial things that most of the world knows about. Well, it's the same feeling I get over and over with Simpsons stuff is just extremely obscure Simpsons references where I'm just thinking, is that what I think they mean? And it's like, holy cow. Yeah, this, this, you know, this thing we thought of 30 some years ago and the whole world gets the reference. It's amazing.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Callbacks are very satisfying.

[George Martin]

Yeah. Oh, it's nice. It's nice.

[Jeff Martin]

We've unearthed even more never before seen footage of the Beatles, including six hours of them discussing drinking water. We also have over 90 hours of them talking about umbrellas. Maybe that could be a documentary too. I once brought an umbrella into the shower. How did you get clean? I didn't, but at least I didn't have to take off me clothes. As soon as I open my umbrella, it stops raining. You need a sunroof on it. What about a giant umbrella you keep in the trunk? Sounds like you're talking about an umbrellafant. Can we get back to work? Wait, I like the sound of that.

[George Martin]

Get back hitting quickly on the other. You know, John is fantastic watching it, you almost have forgotten what a tour de force it is. Just that he, you know, impersonates old women, young women, a madman, a song and dance man, a German U boat captain, apparently. I guess that was improvised, right? Him in the. Oh, yeah, yeah, right, right. Think how painful that would be if. If someone wasn't funny.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right, right. If Pete Beston that left the Beatles.

[George Martin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

What a different film this would be.

[George Martin]

Well, Pete, we've decided you're the cut up of the group. Yeah, exactly. Poor Pete.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, four feet. But it seemed like this was a perfect platform for John to be the fully realized John of who he was offstage. It's like, wow, you just gave him the perfect opening that a lesser musician pop star of the day. You know, let me see, Cliff Richards movie where he's rising to the occasion like this. With all due respect to Cliff Richard, it wouldn't have worked.

[George Martin]

No, they are so much better than we have any right to ask them to be. And the thing is, okay, so that's some of their different Personas. But something that also strikes you is that even though they're different, they have this collective view as well. And a small moment that I think is a big deal is on the train when Paul says, of course he can talk. He's a human being, isn't he? And Ringo says, well, how do we know if he's your grandfather? Now here's the thing. The original script for that, I know, said the lads all laugh at that joke and it's a perfectly serviceable mid level joke. But I have to think it's because the Beatles own comedic sensitivity was so sharp that it sort of came out. No, this will be funnier if Ringo does it, tries to sell it is a lame joke. You cut to the other guys looking at him kind of like, come on, Ringo, you can do better than that. And it's hilarious. It always cracks up the audience in the theater and it's truly, truly funny. Now think about that. That anybody else would have that joke and they, you know, one of the guys in the band would say it and the other members of Herman's Hermits would laugh, you know, and you would just think, okay, fine, this is like a typical sitcom. But now later, when the man in the train says, I fought the war for your sword, and Ringo says, I bet you're sorry you won. That is a better joke. And that one they laugh at. And there's a remarkable phenomenon there. Okay, I worked at David Letterman all through the 80s.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Have a good weekend.

[George Martin]

Yeah, right. And what made that show work was we had lots of silliness going on and Letterman was in the middle of it, approving of it, but also detached from it. And it all worked through Letterman's eyes, him registering it. And Seinfeld worked the same way. You were always looking at Jerry to see how to take this in. Bill Murray works that way. Groucho worked that way.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Jack Benny.

[George Martin]

Yeah, yeah. Everyone's acting crazy. And with the Beatles, I would say it was a unique phenomenon of you were watching four people simultaneously register the absurdity about them.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Self awareness.

[George Martin]

Yeah. Enjoying it and keeping it. And I don't know. Another example.

[Robert Rodriguez]

No. And maybe that's why it hasn't been repeated. It is so unique. Like the meteor that hits the Earth or something.

[George Martin]

Right. The Beatles themselves couldn't really repeat it. So much of that is missing in hell, which we can get to. But yeah, right.

[Robert Rodriguez]

There was actual line in this book, Beatles in Humor, where they talk about the aptitude for self awareness, improvisation and one liners. That's all high level comedic skill that independent of their musical chops, they possessed in spades. Plus the physical charm.

[George Martin]

Yep. Well, the deck is so stacked in favor of them. I mean, it's like Animal House or something. Just. All right, hoot. Do you want to be the square guy in the train or do you want to be these great looking guys who can make this incredible music, who girls are chasing and who always have a funny comeback? Oh, yes, I want to be those guys.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And it's a beautiful thing when you see the contemporaneous interviews of them. Like there's that little short trailer thing they did and baby buggies and just the news conferences for sure that throughout 1964, anytime off the film set, you see them ostensibly being themselves. I mean, maybe they would say, well, we're putting on our Beatle Personas versus our private Personas. But it aligns perfectly with what you see on the screen in A Hard Day's Night. It's like Hard Day's Night works in part because you fully believe it's them. And out of A Hard Day's Night, they do not disappoint. Those characters live on.

[George Martin]

Well, look, full credit to Alan Owen, full credit to Richard Lester. But the main reason it works is the Beatles. There's no question about that. Now, we've talked about three of them, so. Oh, look, look here, let's put this in a little context. Paul McCartney, God gave very generously to this guy. He can play any instrument, a genius gift for melody, astonishingly versatile and expressive voice. He can hit notes an octave higher than an ordinary man. He's great looking. He seems to also have a great deal of common sense and perspective and graciousness. And you'll see now people will say, hey, what living human being has brought more happiness to the earth than anyone else? And McCartney seems to win that one easily. And it's like, okay, there's 7 billion people in the world, pretty good credit to your name. Went and saw him, you know, six years ago in Dodger Stadium and it's like, holy cow, he's still selling out stadiums, you know, what a life, what a career. Okay, now that said, he didn't hit one out of the park at the press conference. I don't think he has an indelible press conference moment. Does he?

[Robert Rodriguez]

The one I can think of. And you may remember this 66 in LA, when the guy, the reporter is reading to him. What do you have to say about the Time magazine quote saying that Day Tripper is about prostitutes and Norwegian woods, about lesbians? What's your response to the Time article? Oh, we were just trying to sing songs about prostitutes and lesbians.

[George Martin]

Right, right. I did read that. Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

The one moment. Yes.

[George Martin]

Oh, look, look. I did an extremely. Like in about 1997, he did an interview with Conan and Conan brought it out of him somehow. Look that up. That's the funniest interview anyone's done with him. But obviously his solo scene in A Hard Day's Night was cut from the movie. I think Richard Lester said he didn't do it very well. I don't know.

[Robert Rodriguez]

He said he tried too hard.

[George Martin]

Well, that is the thing.

[Robert Rodriguez]

He is eager to please and that is a pattern. Do you know the Dark side of the Moon story?

[George Martin]

Nope.

[Robert Rodriguez]

So at emi, at the Abbey Road Studios, the band Pink Floyd, they're getting voices down on tape of whoever happened to be nearby to incorporate into the album. And one that did make the cut was Henry McCullough, who was in Wings at the time. Some line about. I think they put the question to him, when's the last time you got into a fight? And he said something like, I don't remember, I was too drunk, or something like that. Apparently Paul and Linda were also recorded. They did not make the cut because they decided to put on an act. It fell flat, wasn't what they were looking for. And as you say, this scene from Hard Day's Night, the Paul solo scene got cut, as did the one in Help, a year later.

[George Martin]

Right. And while we're running down Paul, I would say his Simpsons cameo is not as good as George's. Aringa's Paul, he's by nature a diplomat, a politician. Politicians aren't funny. They're watching what they say. They're self conscious. And you know something? I remember a few years ago, there was like some McCartney family reunion. He had flown in his relatives to a place and there's Paul happily surrounded by dozens of kin. And he'd said, like, I know it's a cliche that the best things in life are free, but I. I really believe that. And it's like, oh, okay, that is a healthy perspective. But it's.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Is he going for irony?

[George Martin]

It is not as funny as. No, we need money first, right?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[George Martin]

If we're gonna sing that's all. Now, okay, we sound like we're saying that Paul is an anchor weighing down the Beatles in these movies. And, like, he's Zeppo. And it's like, no, he's. He's much better looking and sings much better than Zeppo and all that. Okay, here's something I'll say. When I was writing for Letterman, it was overlapped with the years when Julia Louis Dreyfus was on Saturday Night Live. And I knew her a little. Very nice. And she, of course, has gone on to pretty much On Mount Rushmore of female TV comediennes. Didn't make that much impact on snl. Doesn't have a whole lot of characters on it. People remembered. And I always used to think and say at the time that, you know something? It is very useful for a comedy troupe to have someone attractive in it because the point of so many sketches is, well, if this guy is trying to pick up this girl on a date, if she's pretty, it does the work for you. So I'd say Paul's best moments, like in Help, is when Eleanor Braun is disappointed that he's not the one wearing the ring.

[Jeff Martin]

It's not the Beetle with the ring. He. Oh, no, unfortunately.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Unfortunately, yeah, exactly.

[George Martin]

And he does a funny little take. And he's cute. He's cute. Hitting on Patty Harrison and the other girl on the train, putting on the bowler.

[Jeff Martin]

Excuse me, but these young men I'm sitting with wondered if two of us could come over and join you.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, there is a function for that. I think the Marcus brothers discovered that when Zeppo left and they had the cast. Alan Jones as the Zeppo in the.

[George Martin]

Next film, who's closer to Paul, sings a little better, a little handsomer. But I'm still saying, yes, Paul isn't a great comedian. Okay. He's probably not much of a golfer either. I mean, at some level, this is a silly conversation, but the miraculous thing is they were. The other three are all hilarious. And Paul contributes and he didn't need to be.

[Robert Rodriguez]

In other words, he served a role.

[George Martin]

Yes, right.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Unfortunately, when Broad street came up, he didn't recognize his limitation.

[George Martin]

No, that's true. He didn't. Broadstreet is right up there with Catch us if you can. A little oddity not many people have seen.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jeff Martin]

Here, mate. Stick your moniker on there, will you? My wife likes your music. I don't. But I'll get lynched if I goes home without it. That mightn't be such a bad idea. You're right, that's the spirit. Keep it up.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And circle back what you'd said earlier. On the flip side of that coin, Dick Lester did opine that he thought George was the most natural out of all of them as an actor. And unlike Paul, yeah, he did run to a career offshoot of Music in Cinema. But it was behind the scenes and it would have been interesting if he had parlayed that into something, taken it seriously.

[Jeff Martin]

We made the Life of Brian and after that all kinds of other projects started coming in and so we decided to make a few others. It's been happening like that ever since.

[George Martin]

Has handmade film seems to lean toward comedy though.

[Jeff Martin]

Yeah, maybe 80% comedy, but there's scheduled to be a few serious ones now. Obviously though, since you're an executive producer, you could go in front of the camera if you wanted.

[George Martin]

Have you any desire to act?

[Jeff Martin]

Well, this is acting. Not really, no. I suppose we're all a bit silly. You know, I don't mind doing a little piece here and there just for the fun of it, but it's difficult enough acting out the day to day existence rather than also, I think acting is so boring. You know, they sit there for day in day hours waiting for them to set up the cameras and you know, it's sort of fun when you see it all cut together. But it's. It's much more tedious than say making a record. You can make a record much quicker.

[George Martin]

Yeah, I would say George is. It's very narrow. He's got his dry, slow delivery and he does it and it's good every time.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right. You stay in that lane as a supporting or character actor. That would have been a nice little offshoot. He gets this anchor hung around him as the dour, bitter, sour beetle. People that knew him say otherwise.

[George Martin]

I was very glad to see he had one quote where I think somebody had said, yeah, I think George didn't like making A Hard Day's Night. And George said, I don't know where he got that idea. I loved it. Nice, that's good to hear.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[George Martin]

Well, okay. So yeah, Hard days, night. Great, beautiful. And my daughter and I then the next day we watched Help. It's very instructive watching those back to back. I think the Beatles, impudence, sense of anarchy. It plays so well when there's joy, when that sort of overrides it, when, okay, they're chafing against the constraints of their fame and making this TV show. But they're always one fire door away from running around in a field Right. And they're basically loving it. And you watch Help. And a lot of the joy is missing. There's some great visuals, there's great songs, there's some funny bits. Paul on the floor. That's fun and all that.

[Jeff Martin]

I said, this is the famous ring. I'm in fear of my life, you know.

[George Martin]

This is the famous Beatles.

[Jeff Martin]

So this is the famous Scotland Yarde. And how long do you think you'll last? Can't say. Fair enough. Great Train Robbery. How's that going? You don't believe us? Do here. Chief Superintendent.

[George Martin]

Ringo, please.

[Jeff Martin]

It's for you. The famous Ringo. Hold on, it's them. There's only me and Paul. Know we're here. I know we're here. Allow me. I'm a bit of a famous mimic.

[George Martin]

In my own small way, you know.

[Jeff Martin]

James Cagney.

[George Martin]

Hello there.

[Jeff Martin]

This is the famous Ringo here. Gear Fab. What is it that I can do for you, as it were? Gear Fab. Not a bit like Cagney Agony.

[George Martin]

But it's probably the nature that Hard Days Night seems so spontaneous and you can't sustain that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right. Repeating a triumph.

[George Martin]

Yeah, Right. Once the spontaneity becomes calculated, it's all over. I mean, you. You could think of it as an unusually large soap bubble that stays afloat much longer than it should, you know. Or if you like, a wave that, oh, look at us, we're catching this new liberated spirit. But the wave will rest and crash. And the amazing thing is when it happens, when a piece of silliness holds up for the entirety, like Duck Soup and I Am the Walrus and Alice in Wonderland and the Mikado. Yes, you know, still delightful. The wizard sequence and magical mystery tour. Eh? Not so much.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right.

[Jeff Martin]

Talk about your magical mysteries. I spent half an hour looking for that sugar.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I tell you, certain things are very much of their time, wouldn't you say? If you're lucky. And all the things come together and converge at exactly the right moment in history and within the culture. Hard Day's Night was the perfect film for that. Early 1964, London on the verge of blossoming as this big swinging London cultural center of the universe of youth culture. Kind of played out by 65 and what do you do? And we can't repeat the same thing. Nobody would like that. And you don't have that force to push against comedically. Same way I enjoy the hell out of Help. But it's a different kind of enjoyment.

[George Martin]

Well, yeah, just in a narrow way. You watch Help. Just talking about John, watching Hard Days Night I kept coming to the thought, I think that this is kind of John at his Pete, you know, at the start because he looks good, he's smiling, he's singing these great songs. He's really funny in his spare time, you know, he's writing these delightful books and just about exactly a year later doing Help. Some of that he looks tired. Some of the spirit has been knocked out of him. He looks a little puffy, a little red eyed and it's unfortunate he seems where he's a rascal in A Hard Day's Night in Help kind of seems kind of rude.

[Jeff Martin]

Of course. Why do you think of that? You twist.

[Robert Rodriguez]

The aspect to distinguish between the 2. The 1964, the amphetamine period versus the pot period of help and the way it affected their sensibility and is our great loss as Beatle fans and students of the culture that the outtakes were not preserved of that to hear Dick Lester's description of take after blown take because they're rolling on the floor, cracking up at each other and take 50, it would have been something.

[George Martin]

Oh yeah, no, what a loss. I mean we are so lucky to have a hard day tonight, but what a loss. Well, it's funny you said. Well, the Beatles made the very smart decision to not try to continue that because what were they going to do? You could keep making pointless movies, right? That would have started to seem the faint emptiness, hollowness, pointlessness of hell, I think would have gotten worse. So what are they going to do? Make narrative movies like be like Elvis? Pretend to care about winning a speedboat.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Race, go to Hawaii.

[George Martin]

Right. And just to get a little off topic, but just as a student of comedy I'm so interested in it is the Beatles stopped, but show business at large. They sure tried to keep making these happening movies. Basically trying to recapture the magic of Hard Day's Night over and over and almost never succeeding.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Here we come, walk down the street.

[Jeff Martin]

We get the funniest looks from everyone we meet.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Hey, with my mom, kids.

[George Martin]

There'S very little good comedy being made in 1968. There's. There's movies like Casino Royale and what's New Pussycat? The ones with Ringo in them like Candy, Candy and the Magic Christian. A lot of them, they'll have some good music, they'll have some pretty girls, you know, and that zippy Dick Lester. Fast TV commercial editing, lots of effects. Boy, very little of them hold up.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Have you ever seen Head?

[George Martin]

I was. This was my next point.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay.

[George Martin]

The difficulty of sustaining this, I think can be illustrated with the Monkeys. I loved that show when I was a kid. I still like it in my head. Individual episodes don't really hold up. Even though there's fun, there's funny bits, they're very good. But then by the time they're making head, probably again, pot has something to do with it. There obviously leads to a lack of rigor. Song was pretty white.

[Jeff Martin]

Well, so am I. What can I tell you?

[George Martin]

You've been working on your dancing, though.

[Jeff Martin]

Oh, yeah.

[George Martin]

Yeah.

[Jeff Martin]

Well, I've been rehearsing it. Glad you noticed that. Yeah.

[George Martin]

It doesn't leave much time for your music. You should spend more time on it because the youth of America depends on you to show the way.

[Jeff Martin]

Yeah.

[George Martin]

Yeah.

[Jeff Martin]

Monkeys is the craziest people.

[George Martin]

If we thought of it, it's groovy, you know, and so Head is pretty hard to sit through. And have you ever seen 33 and a third revolutions per monkey?

[Robert Rodriguez]

See, I enjoy the hell out of head, but 33 and a third, I cannot sit through. There you go.

[George Martin]

We're the same. Yeah. No, that's disastrous.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Oh, God, it's awful.

[George Martin]

No, I'm like, you look. I like it because I like the Monkeys, you know, And I like Help because it's the Beatles and they're young. Here's a moment in Help when they're the snowman wins the ski jump. One of the better bits, actually. Actually, yeah. And the Beatles are in the band playing that national anthem.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[George Martin]

Of that country. And George is taking. Has taken a bite of the symbol. Okay. Now, listen, when I was a kid, I loved that. And all these things play better the younger you are.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, yes.

[George Martin]

All the flouting of authority because kids are subject to authority. So. Yeah. Anything. Making fun of the teacher the way John made fun of the teacher and his teachers in the Daily Howl, you know, in his high school newsletter, that stuff all plays, but it's merely absurd. What's the joke?

[Robert Rodriguez]

It's a visual non sequitur.

[George Martin]

Yes. And it's like, okay, I'm very square to say, what do you mean? What's the point? What a square question. But all I'll say is, you can do it. You can do it that way. But it is very, very hard to sustain. And if you have no point, no meaning, no internal logic, it is hard to sustain. And I almost feel like the Beatles might have. I think they came to that conclusion about psychedelia, didn't they?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. That they'd gotten out of it what they needed to and ready to move on. Yeah. When I think of Help that is like the most appealing bits, not specifically the symbol bit per se, but like Mel Evans popping out of the hole in the ice. White Cliff's adobe. Yeah. The little visual non sequitur is that more than the scripted jokes are the funny part for me.

[George Martin]

Yes, me too. And again, I like it because it's George eating the symbol. If it was a British actor in Middle Eastern makeup wearing a turban. Again, the Beatles carry these movies you'll watch. The music sequences tend to be great. That's where the fast editing, you know, like, Ticket to Ride. That stuff works beautifully. And then you'll cut to the Mad Doctor or something like that. Yeah, and my spirits sink. It should be said Richard Lester obviously had a hard time sustaining it without the Beatles and maybe even more Beatles songs to help him along. Because How I Won the War I find hard to sit through. Apparently the Bed Sitting Room, a movie that Spike Milligan wrote years after the Goons. That's apparently not good at all. I don't know.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Interesting.

[George Martin]

Yeah. But there's very little good comedy being made in the late 60s. The Beatles were wise to mostly stay out of that, I'd say.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[George Martin]

Except Magical Mystery Tour.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay, so you have thoughts?

[George Martin]

Oh, you know something, I didn't rewatch it. I've seen it once about 40. About 40 years ago. And I thought, ah, I'll spare myself visual bits. I remember John delivering the spaghetti.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right, right. Yeah. Again, a visual non sequitur. But yeah, yeah, it's one that. It's easier to, I think, sort of intellectually defend it as a thought exercise than it is to enjoy it as a comedy. I think that they got a little too ahead of their audience. They didn't have the film craft chops to really apply the rigor, as you would say, to filmmaking to do it justice. Coming off of Pepper and all you need is love and they're top of the world, top of the game. And then maybe an aspect of we have Something to prove post Brian Epstein. A little too much hubris is what I think dooms it.

[George Martin]

Yeah, yeah. Or looked at from another angle. They were willing to try something they weren't protective of their legacy. But that said, big old flop. But most comedy from 1968, it just.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Doesn'T hold up 2 of its time.

[George Martin]

Yeah, well, honestly, too much pot, too much grooviness, too much. It'll be a happening, man.

[Robert Rodriguez]

You had to be there.

[George Martin]

Right? Well, look, I would say it's akin to the long fade outs that the Beatles were doing in Strawberry Fields. Only a Northern Song. It's all too much. Magical Mystery Tour. They were very much doing that at the time and just getting a little self indulgent. But so what? It's 30 seconds. It's musical, it's fun. There might be a Paul is dead clue buried in there, you know. Vastly. Much easier to take than spread across two hours right. On a movie screen because of RISING.

[Jeff Martin]

CHORUS of Strawberry Fields Forever in jazz tempo Strawberry Feel better? Japanese Let me take you down because I'm going to Strawberry Fields. Nothing is real, Nothing to be going with Strawberry Fields Forever. Don't tell it. You can't play. Put it on. What speed is it? Seven and a half. Oh, you crumbs. Well, that feels.

[George Martin]

We just started talking a little about just in the British tradition, though, of very sophisticated, elegant use of words. They were great at that. The lyrics on sergeant Pepper, I'm amazed with how good they are. Not just John's. Paul's.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[George Martin]

May I inquire discreetly when are you free to take some tea with me? It just. They all come off, even simple songs like With A Little Help from my friends. Would you believe in a love at first sight? Yes. I'm certain that it happens all the time. It was 20 years ago today. Sergeant Pepper taught the band to play.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Fantastic work that scanned beautifully with the music they do. Yeah.

[George Martin]

The back in the U.S.S.R. we've talked before, Paula Deen, Pam. Just that. Yes. You could say she was attractively built, you know.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. You started this with Lovely Rita evoking that. And that is song I regard as a sort of comedy song. The same way Drive My Car is like. It's all a setup to a punchline.

[George Martin]

Yeah. I got no car and it's breaking my heart. A good joke. A good joke finished off that song. It's funny. Yeah. John, for all his verbal fluency, it's funny. He did have a different strain of running words into the ground, circling them back on themselves. I've like flipped the daily howl and none of it makes you laugh. Who writes good comedy in their teens? Nobody. There's things like Weather report today has been dry, except for the wet periods, which were wet.

[Robert Rodriguez]

It's funny because somebody is thinking that's funny.

[George Martin]

Yeah. But of course he did that later with a man appeared with a flaming pie, said your beatles. Thank you, Mr. Man. They said thanking him but once. I mean, honestly, Crybaby Cry is. Is about the last going down the Lewis Carroll road. And after that he was going for authenticity and doing I am he is. You Are he is, you are me and love is real. Real is love. Doubling back on words.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[George Martin]

The sort of circular verbiage and, you know, all you need is love. Love is all you need. It's interesting that he. John, we've said that George, comedically, he was closer to a one trick pony with a great trick. Yeah, John is. And same with Ringo, I would say, in a way he had his good natured everyman.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Maybe a bit broader of a range, but it's a type. It's a comedy archetype.

[George Martin]

Right. Yes, John, very interesting. He could be so witty, but he could also be mean, cutting. He would really push it into the dark places. Well, just, of course, his doing his cripple or spastic bits, his Quasimodo bits.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right.

[George Martin]

Well, not at all uncommon, I would say, for a young man to try to see what he can get away with. Oh, no, you're being outrageous. To get laughs and attention and sure. Claim a little turf and also push back on your own insecurity.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right. Yeah. All the above. Touch that third rail of comedy just.

[George Martin]

To be out there, find out what you can get away with and who you are. And years later he wrote Crippled Inside.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right. Turning it full circle.

[George Martin]

Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I do remember as a teen discovering what I was like first at Lennon Remembers and the Playboy interview. Just interviews that would come my way. There being laugh out loud bits within them and thinking you just take it for granted that the Beatles are just good at everything.

[George Martin]

Oh, yeah, yeah. We keep saying it, but yeah, yeah. Merkin was right. They really. The amazing thing isn't that they didn't become the Marx Brothers, it's how close they were.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Bite themselves.

[George Martin]

Let me ask you something. Have you seen Rock and Roll Circus?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, yeah.

[George Martin]

Okay. I know I should. I was going to watch it for this, but Apple TV wanted 20 bucks and you know, out of principle I thought, ah. But I've heard friends of mine have told me that they blow the Rolling Stones away in terms of personality.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I guess there's an aspect to that, certainly depending on your fandom musically. Everybody from 1968 on has said it was the who blew everybody away with their a quick one while he's away performance. But it's not really a comedy vehicle. I mean, there's moments when John does that introduction to your blues. I think it is.

[Jeff Martin]

Winston, welcome to the show, Michael. It's a pleasure to be here. It's really nice to have you, John, as you know, I've admired your work.

[Robert Rodriguez]

For so long and haven't been able.

[Jeff Martin]

To get together with you so much as I want it's not been my fault Michael, do you remember that old place off Broadway? Oh, those are the days I want to hold your man Remember that John, I want to talk to you about your new group, the Dirty Mac, which you've got together for tonight's show, comprises of yourself, myself, That's Winston Legthey, you know. And we've got Mitch Mitchell from the Jimi Hendrix Experience.

[George Martin]

Are you really?

[Jeff Martin]

Yes, Experience. Very, very. You've read my file.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Typical, that. You expect that of John, Right, Right.

[George Martin]

Yeah. A friend of mine said John is effortlessly funnier than Mick, who is the most on camera charming of the. Really? The only one who's even trying.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Sure.

[George Martin]

He said, the others look like they'd lost a bet. I'm not talking musically at all here.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. As Personas. And that's the thing. Because the Beatles may look easy, everybody thinks they can do it, I suspect even people that should know better. I kind of equate it to when Bill Wyman started making albums, you know, in the wake of Ringo's success. Thinking you're not the top talent in the band. How hard can it be to surround yourself with a bunch of Personas that are good at what they do? Ringo's albums, at least some of the 70s stuff, hold up brilliantly. Less so Bill Wyman.

[George Martin]

Yeah. Ringo always pulled it off with personality.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, exactly.

[George Martin]

And we haven't even mentioned Act Naturally, Just another of those touchstone. Let's not get pompous here. Yeah.

[Jeff Martin]

And.

[George Martin]

Yeah, well, John would say, I look at Ringo, if I ever start thinking we're all great, I look over at.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Ringo, I know perfectly well we're not Superman.

[George Martin]

Right. Yes. And, of course, George wasn't about to treat John and Paul as if they were Superman, you know, either. Yeah, well, something I did want to say is the Beatles originally were studied as a phenomenon, and his personalities and through their music. At the end of Nicholas Schaffner's Beatles Forever, he said something like, the phenomenon has subsided into nostalgia. The personalities have grown apart in middle age. But the best of the music is timeless. So I'd always. My brilliant insight has been it's about the music man and all that.

[Jeff Martin]

So.

[George Martin]

Yeah, yeah. Very original. And so I'm always inclined to, like, if you're going to name a fifth Beatle, I'd say I'd pick George Martin over Brian Epstein because he was so crucial to the music. And I would never, ever disparage McCartney's contribution to the Beatles. Because he just. It's so clear. He brought so much music to every groove and all that. So approaching this, when this was first brought to me, the Beatles in humor, I was. Oh, come on, that's not fair. They didn't present themselves as comedians and, you know, so critiquing. Paul is not a gifted comic actor.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right.

[George Martin]

In a sense, it's not fair, but it's fun to leave off. There's a lot of humor in the music, but it's fun to say, okay, fine, at the start, it was as much about the Beatle wigs as the songs, and it's sort of fun to get back into that space.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, it definitely is an aspect that absolutely was a huge, huge part of their appeal. Still is. It's still this element of charm that stands up for the most part. I know younger Gen Z people are shocked when they see John doing some of the stuff he does on stage. Like, how could you do that? But you had to be there a.

[George Martin]

Less politically correct time. Well, just in that vein, if you watch Help. You know, there's an insane amount of Middle Eastern.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Colonial sensibility.

[George Martin]

Yeah. Well, yeah, that's. I surely springing from Britain's colonial history in. In India. But there's just beds and nails and people standing on their heads and funny accent, funny walks and look at the same human sacrifice. Yeah. And at that exact time, Peter Sellers was in a couple of movies doing an Indian accent. It was. Doesn't make the trip, but it was a different time.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes, it was. It's definitely something that. I think we've done a good job of sort of picking out some of the highlights here of something that we can go on and on forever. Just getting into the nuance and the Britishisms and all this other stuff. Further studies required, to put it one way. But I think we've got a nice overview here.

[George Martin]

I hope so. And not even close to under and a hour, as always.

[Jeff Martin]

Somebody up there likes me. Who is. It's Jesus, our Lord and Savior. It's so useful. Gave his only begotten bread for us to live in Zion. And that's why we're all here. And I'll tell you, brethren, there's more of them than there are of us. And that's why there's so few of us left. Why such fury condemned out the thoughts of man? Yeah. What is this wrath that behold you? Why such favor? Why such favor? Had he called and they bloody welcome. Why, yes. But if you look in your Bible.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Something about the Beatles created and hosted by Robert Rodriguez, executive producer Rick Way title song performed a the Corgis Something about the Beatles is an evergreen podcast.

[Jeff Martin]

You want to stop looking so scornful. It's twisting your face.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Hi, I'm Christina Yerling Biro, host of the podcast Pop Culture Confidential. Join me as I go way behind the scenes with some of the most influential people in entertainment and media. Here, actors such as Succession's Brian Cox talk about his favorite characters to play.

[Jeff Martin]

There always has to be a mystery.

[George Martin]

The audience have to be in a.

[Jeff Martin]

Situation where they want to know what's.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Going on, meet studio execs like Pixar chief Pete Docter and learn his secret on how he makes us cry. Emotion is our first language and so many others who are defining popular culture, from Obama speechwriter David Litt to Top Chef host Padma Lakshmi. We don't often think about food politically or we don't want to, but it really is.

[George Martin]

Join me Search for Pop Culture Confidential.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

[George Martin]

Hey everyone, it's Chris Pandolfi inviting you.

[Robert Rodriguez]

To check out the new season of my podcast, Inside the Musician Brain, with new episodes airing now.

[George Martin]

Hearing it in that room, these guys playing this thing and trying to figure out how to play this song was mind blowing. It's so inspiring to know there's so much more to it than you ever thought, and it just opened another door.

[Robert Rodriguez]

But when people find faith, because they.

[George Martin]

Need to, in terms of just filling a void to feel better without actually being better, that's when it becomes a crutch. Much less like drugs and alcohol do.

[Jeff Martin]

Man, I don't have all the time in the world here if I want to be a professional bluegrass musician.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I felt like I had to take a very strategic approach, just trying to get rid of the barriers and figure out what those barriers were.

[Jeff Martin]

The feelings still come and I have.

[George Martin]

To reckon with that, but I think I have better ways of moving forward and not being stuck, which I think was the killer for me.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Catch all that and so much more on the new season of Inside the Musician's Brain.