294: White Album Olympiad with Gary Wenstrup

Summary

Podcast Summary: Something About the Beatles – Episode 294: White Album Olympiad with Gary Wenstrup

Release Date: November 26, 2024

Introduction

In Episode 294 of "Something About the Beatles," hosted by award-winning author Robert Rodriguez, the focus returns to an in-depth exploration of The Beatles' iconic "White Album." Joined by guest Gary Wenstrup, a renowned lecturer on 60s rock and The Beatles, the episode delves into the album's complexities, artistic dynamics, and enduring legacy.

Episode Overview

Gary Wenstrup introduces the episode as a continuation of the Olympiad series, aiming to dissect all four sides of The Beatles' "White Album" in a comprehensive discussion. He highlights his enthusiasm for the album's sprawling and diverse nature, positioning it as a quintessential Beatles experience. Gary also shares updates about upcoming events, including a book launch and a preview of the "Beatles 64" documentary produced by Martin Scorsese.

Notable Quote:

"The White Album, all four sides of it in one scoop. Definitely my favorite Beatles album, probably at least in the top three for sure." — Gary Wenstrup [02:11]

Single vs. Double Album Debate

The conversation kicks off with the perennial debate: Should the White Album have been a single album?

• Robert Rodriguez expresses reservations, acknowledging that while he appreciates the album's breadth, he perceives some tracks as less essential. He cites the New York Times' review, which labeled over half the songs as "profound mediocrities," though he considers this an overstatement. Robert mentions tracks like "Bungalow Bill" and "Piggies" as songs he doesn't feel compelled to revisit.

  Notable Quote:

  "I don't need to hear Bungalow Bill again. I don't need to hear Revolution Number Nine again." — Robert Rodriguez [07:56]

• Gary Wenstrup vehemently opposes the idea of condensing the album into a single disc. He champions the double album format, emphasizing that the vast array of material allows listeners to embark on a rich musical journey. Gary argues that The Beatles' inventive and uneven nature is best showcased in the expansive double album setup, which prevents the over-familiarity of single-disc releases.

  Notable Quote:

  "I reject out of hand the whole idea of cutting down the White Album... it would have enhanced it by doing so." — Gary Wenstrup [10:55]

Collaborative Dynamics and Songwriting

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the collaborative dynamics within The Beatles during the White Album era:

• Gary observes a pattern where his favorite albums by his favorite bands are often double albums. He praises The Beatles for allowing individual members to explore diverse styles without strict oversight, fostering a creative environment where every song, even the experimental ones, find their place.

  Notable Quote:

  "If I like an artist enough, I like to hear even their non-A material." — Gary Wenstrup [07:28]

• Robert contrasts this with his preference for streamlined albums with a clear beginning, middle, and end. However, he concedes that The Beatles' albums are a unique exception, with each member contributing significantly to the overall sound.

  Notable Quote:

  "Any Beatles material is good Beatles material. Albums are a different animal." — Robert Rodriguez [13:32]

Gold, Silver, Bronze Ratings: Disc One

The duo embarks on their gold, silver, and bronze ratings for Disc One of the White Album:

1. Bronze: "I Will"

   • Robert appreciates the song's gentle melody and optimistic lyrics but notes a weariness in elements like Paul's vocalization of bass notes.

     Notable Quote:

     "Paul sings the bass notes as opposed to playing them. That's gotten old to me." — Robert Rodriguez [32:22]

   • Gary defends the song's structure and Paul's songwriting prowess, highlighting its enduring charm despite Robert's reservations.

2. Silver: "I'm So Tired"

   • Robert praises the song's atmospheric journey from weariness to frenzy, appreciating the dynamic build-up.

     Notable Quote:

     "There's a journey that goes on in the song where he starts weary and slouching... and ends in a defeated whimper." — Robert Rodriguez [42:46]

   • Gary echoes the sentiment, emphasizing the band's contributions that elevate the track beyond a solo effort.

3. Gold: "Dear Prudence"

   • Robert lauds the song for its emotional honesty, vulnerability, and the band's harmonious enhancements.

     Notable Quote:

     "There's so much emotional honesty in this. There's a nakedness and a tenderness and a vulnerability that's breathtaking." — Robert Rodriguez [48:16]

   • Gary concurs, noting the song's universal appeal and the band's investment in bringing it to life.

Gold, Silver, Bronze Ratings: Disc Two

Moving to Disc Two, their ratings showcase contrasting preferences:

1. Bronze: "Wild Honey Pie"

   • Gary describes it as a "piece of nothing" but appreciates its experimental nature and uniqueness.

     Notable Quote:

     "It's a piece of nothing, but it's a compelling piece of nothing." — Gary Wenstrup [40:39]

   • Robert admits to disliking the song but appreciates its role as a bridge between "Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da" and "Bungalow Bill."

2. Silver: "Sexy Sadie"

   • Robert values the song's moodiness and poignant lyrics, reflecting his preference for darker, more introspective tracks.

     Notable Quote:

     "There's so much surrounded by darkness, it's brutal." — Robert Rodriguez [100:24]

   • Gary appreciates the song's depth and lyrical complexity, highlighting its Hitchcockian spookiness.

3. Gold: "Crybaby Cry"

   • Gary praises the song for its spookiness, dynamic soundscape, and evocative lyrics, considering it one of his favorites.

     Notable Quote:

     "It's a very visual song... Crybaby Cry absolutely has got a spookiness and a darkness to it." — Gary Wenstrup [94:19]

   • Robert shares a similar appreciation but acknowledges they have differing views on certain elements.

Side Three and Four Discussions

Gary and Robert extend their analysis to the latter halves of the White Album, discussing tracks like "Helter Skelter," "Mother Nature's Son," and "Rocky Raccoon." They delve into themes of authenticity, emotional depth, and the band's ability to experiment with various genres while maintaining their signature sound.

Notable Quote:

"The White Album is so incredibly stylistically divergent. It's like every little notion of a musical idea or format that they had, they acted on that impulse." — Gary Wenstrup [16:58]

Final Thoughts and Conclusions

Throughout the episode, Gary and Robert reflect on the enduring impact of the White Album, its place within The Beatles' discography, and its influence on future musical endeavors. They acknowledge the album's experimental edge, the band's harmonious collaboration, and the individual artistic expressions that make it a landmark in rock history.

Notable Quote:

"The band enhances every song of the White Album. They're not backing musicians. They're coming in with their own game." — Gary Wenstrup [28:43]

Conclusion

Episode 294 of "Something About the Beatles" offers a profound examination of the White Album through the insightful dialogue between Robert Rodriguez and Gary Wenstrup. Their thorough analysis, paired with personal anecdotes and expert perspectives, provides listeners with a deeper understanding of the album's artistic nuances and its enduring legacy in the world of music.

For those who haven’t listened to the episode, this summary encapsulates the key discussions, reflections, and passionate debates that make this installment a must-listen for Beatles enthusiasts and music aficionados alike.

Transcript

[Robert Rodriguez]

When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, like Skims or.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Allbirds, sure you think about a great product, a cool brand and great marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business making, selling and for shoppers, buying. Simple for millions of businesses. That business is Shopify, it's home of Shop Pay, the number one checkout in the world. You can use it to boost conversions.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Up to 50%, meaning way less carts.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Going abandoned and way more sales going through. To checkout, upgrade your business and get the same checkout Allbirds uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com income all lowercase go to shopify.com income to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com income this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliate potential Savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I like the White Album. That's one of my favorites. Just because it I felt after sergeant Pepper, which was. Which was brilliant, but it just doesn't happen to be my favorite. The White Album, we were getting back to being a band again and, you know, that's what the Beatles were. We were a really cool band. I felt Pepper was a lot of overdubs. There's great songs. You can't put the album down. It always sounds weird when I say this, but I loved yeah, Blues. You know, we're all in a room this size, you know, a quarter of this. We're all together. There's no separation. We're playing.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Hello and welcome to episode 294 of Something about the Beatles Podcast. So to be brief, this is a return to the Olympiad series, picking up where we left off, whenever we left off. I think it was the soundtrack Olympiad. We did Mystery Tour, Yellow Submarine earlier this year, if I'm not mistaken, with Gary Wenstrup, renowned lecturer on 60s rock and Beatles and all sorts of other things. You can check out garywenstrup.com if you're interested in what he does. But we're revisiting the series to cover the White Album, all four sides of it in one scoop. Definitely my favorite Beatle album, probably at least in the top three for sure. It's sprawling and dark and stylistically all over the map, and that's what makes this beast unique and to my mind, a great Beatles experience. We love the Beatles. We want more of the Beatles? Well they gave you 30 songs more with that plus two sides of a single in late 70s summer 1968. Announcement wise, a bunch of you have signed up for the newsletter. That's great. I've gotten a lot of feedback from you guys directly who have signed up how much you are enjoying it. That's great too. I am glad for that. To the people beyond the reach of my socials that only just hear the show, aren't on social media and haven't signed up for the newsletter yet. I would encourage you if you're interested in stuff going on around the show. We had had the book launch event with Alison Bumstead of the Teen Set, Teen fan magazines and Rock Journalism. Don't let the name fool you. Newly published book. There will be more. There's my own book written with Jerry Hammock coming out real soon that we'll be talking about and there's going to be appearances, podcasts and such associated with that coming up. But this is not all self serving. It is a thing about sharing information, sharing beetle content. And to that end there is of course the Beatles 64 doc coming out on Thanksgiving in America produced by Martin Scorsese. It is a retelling of the first trip to America with the Maisel's Brothers footage and it's a new version with new inserts, conversations with Paul and Ringo for that. Anyway, I will be having a show on that imminently, kind of concurrent with that. Released on November 22, the 61st anniversary of the with the Beatles release date, the capitol mono beatles 64 box set. Eight albums released that year, or at least the songs were, because the early Beatles came out in early 65, which is really the Please Please Me album. But in any event, I know there's listeners outside North America who see these as bastard illegitimate releases and that's fair enough. Not the Beatles Intense yada yada yada. But they were the way that millions of American fans fell in love with the Beatles, so that's worth something. So the box set being put out now in glorious mono is 180 gram vinyl and it's remastered versions of Meet the Beatles Beatles second album, Something New, A Hard Day's Night, the Beatles story documentary, Beatles 65 plus the early Beatles. So a lot of vinyl. It's all reproductions of the original releases, everything from inner sleeves to labels and essays from Bruce Spizer inside he of the volumes covering VJ Capital, Parlophone and Apple, etc. And individual album books beyond that. So it's a nice package. And I'm going to be giving away not the entire package, sad to say, but individual albums from it. So to qualify, it's open to North American listeners. I'm not controlling the prize disbursement. It's going to be shipped from Universal Music Group. But to qualify from that, if you're already on the newsletter list, then you're already entered. And if you're not, just shoot an email to satb2010mail.com satbi2010mail.com to get on the list for entrance in this giveaway. Hopefully there will be more of this down the road, of a global nature, to be all inclusive. But in the meantime, this is what we got. So hope to see you there. You've got Beatle 64 to look forward to. We'll be doing a show on that so we can talk about that down the road. And anyway, that's what's happening. So we begin this discussion with the time honored question of should the White Album have been a single album?

[Robert Rodriguez]

I'm not a great one for that, you know, maybe it was too many of that. Look what you mean, it was great. It's old. It's the bloody Beatles White Album. Shut up.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Where do you fall on the White Album single disc concept of an idea, Gary?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Wow, you're jumping right into controversy. Yeah, there's no warmup here. We're jumping right into the deep end.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Well, I would tell you, it astonishes me to this day. I watch the commentary out there in social media and there's still plenty of people who call themselves Beatle fans. Yes, it should have been a single album.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I wouldn't go that far, but I can certainly see where they're coming from. If memory serves, the New York Times, when they reviewed it, they said over half the songs are profound mediocrities. That's probably a little over the top. But I would say this, that there's a bunch of songs I don't need to hear again, or I rarely need to hear again.

[Gary Wenstrup]

There are a number of songs that you can safely live the rest of your life without hearing again.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes, Honestly doesn't mean I hate them. But Bungalow Bill I don't need to hear again. Piggies don't need to hear again. And for all I know, some of these are your gold, silver and bronze. Wild Honey Pie, Long, Long, Long. Revolution Number Nine. I respect it, but I don't need to hear it again.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Really. Bungalow Bill is not a favorite of yours.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I'm just tired of it. I mean, the backstory to. It's interesting. I don't find the melody interesting. I don't find the instrumentation interesting. No, to me it's boring.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Okay, you're allowed. That's interesting.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Tell me where you sit on songs. Do you want to hear all these songs equally a lot for the rest of your life?

[Gary Wenstrup]

I may have said this on the show once before because I know it's been a thought that as soon as I figured it out, I came to this realization that there was an absolute pattern to my favorite albums by my favorite groups. And this was not a conscious thing at all, I swear to you. It's like when I was thinking about my favorite albums by my favorite artists, they were always, if that group produced a double album, it would always be the double album. I don't know why that is. I guess I can theorize. And that is, if I like a group enough, I like to hear even their non A material. And if it is a really well sequenced album, then it takes you on a journey. And I like that as a listening experience. So some people assume Revolver is my favorite Beatle album. It's up there, it's probably top three. But the White Album, I would say historically has been my go to, especially if it's been a long time since I listened to Beatles. So there's that Stones is Exile. I know that's like the rock critic favorite, but really, because it is even more profoundly uneven to me. But there's nothing on it. I hate Zeppelin, Physical Graffiti, London. Calling. Sandinista is like a disc too much for me. I'm not a fan of Springsteen. So if I was River, I guess would be there. And I know there's others. Those are the ones that come up top of my head. If they didn't release a double album like Love, then you gravitate towards something else. But if they did Quadrophenia, the who, that's my favorite lyric. So I am totally down with. If I like an artist, I want to hear everything. I want to hear the uneven stuff. I want to hear things that will never ever get radio play. And as far as the White Album goes, I reject out of hand the whole idea of cutting it down to a single disc. I know it's what George Martin said. I think historically we have an example of something where there was a mountain of material and they cut it down to a single disk and that was who's next? And I like it. But the problem with something of such five star material is that it gets played to death on the radio. And Therefore becomes over familiar. Therefore you get burned out on it. Even Bargain gets played a ton. My wife got played a lot more back in the day, I think, than it does now. Going Mobile gets played a lot. Getting in tune.

[Robert Rodriguez]

It Won't Get Fooled Again. Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Every song on there.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. Won't Get Fooled again and Bob O'Reilly, they're obviously the big money spinners, but even Love Ain't For Keeping. I hear her once in a while. I'll hear that on Sirius XM as a deep track or whatever. So it has the effect on me of just. I would have liked to have heard a double album with Pure and Easy and what's the other one? I don't even know myself. Some of the stuff that got parceled out as B sides, the Relay joined together. That to me would have been a more satisfying experience. That takes you closer to the concept anyway, because it's a concept album without a concept is what you ended up with for who's Next. His Lifehouse thing got completely shuttered aside. And hearing those songs, as amazing as they are, I think for most fans, if you didn't know the Lifehouse story, what the hell is Bob O'Reilly? You also know the lyrics. It makes no sense because it's not a self contained story. So my greater point is I like the journey with an artist I like. And I would never in a million years consider cutting down the White Album or that that would enhance it by doing so.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I understand, you know, any Beatles material is good Beatles material. I understand where you're coming from, sort of. You like to go deep on an artist.

[Gary Wenstrup]

As far as I'm concerned, every one of their albums could have been a double album. It's like we know stuff around them, even if it's like completely different takes. Like Pepper. Yeah. As we talked about Strawberry Fields and Petit Lane. But the first take of Strawberry Fields, a totally different treatment of that. There's all kinds of superfluous stuff, plus Northern Song, plus It's All Too Much or whatever. You could build that album and have it be valid. But we're dealing with what decisions were made at the time of the creation. The story is they thought putting out two records instead of one would burn through their EMI contract quicker, whatever. But they had a surplus of material because that was their incredibly productive songwriting camp that year in Rishikesh. Too bad they didn't do that every year, right?

[Robert Rodriguez]

That John didn't clean up his act and focus on songwriting. That's for sure. I do want to say I Understand completely where you're coming from. I just come from a different school. I like an album that's cleaned up and buttoned up, that feels like it has a bit beginning and a middle and end. You know, I pay money for, you know, this comes out of my pocket. I'm a kid, I don't have a lot of money and I don't enjoy throwaway tracks. And I do think there are throwaways on this.

[Gary Wenstrup]

But see, I could point to plenty on single album releases, even people I like. I'll listen to the album like, ah, this is a skip song. Or, you know, when I make my best of that act. They're certainly never touched because it's like.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay, I hear exactly what you're saying. I don't disagree with you generally, but that's what makes the Beatles an exception. That on any of their albums, there's rarely, if ever, a throwaway tune on it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

You're right.

[Robert Rodriguez]

So though I agree with you in concept, Beatles albums are a different animal, right?

[Gary Wenstrup]

And they always leave you wanting more. Which I guess as an aesthetic is a good thing. But that's the reason people gravitated to bootlegs in the first place. They wanted more beyond the catalog. I know. That was my story. Once I discovered such things existed, it blew my mind and never, ever negatively impacted my fandom. It enhanced it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And actually, you and I are completely different because bootlegs just don't interest me. I respect the artists, their own journey and their own decision making, and I want to hear what interests me is what their decisions were and that they feel that they finally captured the essence of whatever story, whatever song they had in their head. They've captured the essence of it and that's what ended up on the album, not the warm up tracks.

[Gary Wenstrup]

So the process doesn't interest you?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Not as much, no. And it's funny you mentioned Strawberry Fields because that is an exception. I think that process is really interesting. And I don't want to say the process doesn't interest me. It does. To hear the outtakes for Revolver was really interesting, but to me, I guess that's an exception. I just feel like there's limited time in the universe and I'd rather hear what the artist believes is what captures the essence of what he was trying to communicate.

[Gary Wenstrup]

You could make the case that the White Album could have been a triple album if they'd really scooped up everything that was laying around that they had in pocket. And, you know, the songs, you know, Junk Child of Nature and Circles and Sour Milk. Sea they could have done that and maybe, maybe that would have brought down the esteem a little bit because clearly when they reached the finish line and was John and Paul doing the sequencing during that 24 hour marathon session, that was where what's the New Mary Jane was cut, thankfully. Because maybe I would gravitate toward another Beatle album, a non double album as my favorite, if that had been left on the album. So clearly even with 30 songs there was still some editing going on and people would be like, well, why is Revolution 9 on there when they could have put hey Jude or something like that on there? That's silly to me. But if we're trying to put ourselves in the beatles heads in 1968, look what was going on around them. Yes, they had done that single A Revolution recut fast over John's objections, but they did it anyway. I'm sure he appreciated in the end that they did a hell of a job on it, but they were still adhering to at that point a single versus an album mentality. Never in their dreams would they entertain the notion the way a later day act would of sticking that money spinner on the ALB with that kind of corporate heavy handed pressure put on them. But you look at the music produced, you've got George's Wonderwall coming out almost on top. A very much side road divergent thing. Not meant to compete with Beatle product at all. But it's a nice insight into what was going on in their heads. You hear the four George songs on the White Album, but then know what else was going on musically with him that was not Beatle product. On the flip side of that coin, you've got two virgins. For those who think Revolution 9 is a waste of vinyl, it's hey Jude compared to Two Virgins.

[Robert Rodriguez]

No argument for me. Good job.

[Gary Wenstrup]

So you could have had that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes.

[Gary Wenstrup]

But it's interesting to me because the White Album is so incredibly stylistically divergent. It's like every little notion of a musical idea or format that they had, they acted on that impulse there. You don't see that. Granted the scope is limited on a single album, but that was where they had that landscape to play in. And it's wonderful. And yet they knew enough to well, if I'm going to do this east west thing, I'm not going to bring it to the Beatles. That'll be my soundtrack for this film. Or if I'm going to do this avant garde sonic experimentation completely without any commercial consideration, that's Yoko Plastagono non beatle stuff as well. And what you did get, I would make that argument and die on that. Hill is far more musical than most people give it credit for.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I wouldn't argue with anything that you said there.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And I'm not trying to evangelize. There's plenty of people. If you don't like Revolution 9, that's fine. Good on you. You're allowed that latitude. But it's one of those things I always liked. And I've appreciated it more and more as the years go by. Especially once I sussed out the whole thing about it being built on the rhythm track of the extended Revolution one. It's like, that's the framework now. You can actually hear the beats. You can hear that this had a form to it, whether you recognize it or not. And then they take that part out and you're left with what was put on top. It's wonderful, but it's not brainless.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I totally agree. I mean, it's an oral representation of what being in the middle of a revolution would feel like. And it would not be a pleasant experience. And to your point about it being some structure, the number nine. Number nine thing is kind of the chorus.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

So there's a lot that goes in there, and I respect it, but it doesn't mean I enjoyed listening to it. I respect it, and that's fine. Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I never in a million years would want that as a single disc. But you certainly entertain the notion. Seriously.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. As you know, it's one of those fun Beatle arguments to kind of have. And as you know, people will start to get close to one album, but no one ever agrees on which 12 or 14 songs should be on the single disc. And as you know, Paul says there's too much of this, too much of that. It's the Beatles bloody White album. Shut up. And I think that's fair.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Are you steadfast in your reject pile? Has it remained consistent or do they change over time?

[Robert Rodriguez]

That's a good question. I think they wear down over time. I don't think everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey. That started to wear down for me. Birthday has started to wear down for me. So, no, to answer your question, they weren't rejects initially. I just have tired of them over the years. And do you get tired of any of them? Are they all still fresh and vibrant to you?

[Gary Wenstrup]

That's a really good question. I would say that one standout track that I probably am a little bit burned out on now, but I can compartmentalize it in my brain and recognize. Well, just because I don't feel like hearing it this year doesn't mean it's diminished in terms of importance or quality or any of that stuff. Is Blackbird.

[Robert Rodriguez]

It's funny that you mention that I've started to reach a bit of wear out factor with Blackbird. I do think it's a brilliant composition. It is a brilliant lyric, it is a brilliant melody. The finger picking is exquisite. But I'm reaching a little bit of wear out factor on that one as well.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Did it cost you a place on this list in this Olympiad?

[Robert Rodriguez]

It did actually. If I had done this a few years ago, it would have been a gold, silver or bronze.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah, well, I copped to that as well, but I'm ashamed of myself, unlike you.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Why has it worn down? Is it just over familiarity?

[Gary Wenstrup]

There is that and I think in the past year it's sort of had this resurgence with the overhyping of the Beyonce version. And he has played it live, of course. And it's almost as though unless you can do a fresh reading or some new compelling angle, doing a version that's going to invite comparisons of the one you did when you were 26 is probably not helpful, but I'll listen to any number of 1968 versions of is a brilliant composition. Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I don't know if this is true in your experience, but it's true in my experience that John Lennon's songs don't seem to wear out as quickly for me as Paul's songs in general or in the White Album in general. In general.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Okay.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I don't necessarily think they're better songs, but they just retain a freshness to me that Paul's songs don't. And that feels sort of terrible of me to say, but it's just. There's a truth to it, to me that they just wear longer for me.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I think you're putting your finger on something that really underscores when he gets words tossed at him like genius, which certain post Beatle era timeframe he ran with. I think that his gift, his singularity as an artist was the fact that no matter what he did, there was always a fresh angle to it lyrically, playing wise, melody wise. Although one can also make the observation equally accurately that musically there's something very traditional bluesy folk about him and the lack of a melodic range for a lot of his songs, that's great. But then put in the Beatles environment, having to write hits and having to write and compete with Paul, I think really challenged him. And that was where you saw this real rise in invention with him. A Strawberry Fields, a Walrus. Any one of these things that's really. There's no precedent in rock for. Whereas I think one can make the case and it's not any way to diminish his artistry one bit. That Paul was much more of a traditionalist than John was in terms of his musicality. He built and extended out existing forms. Whereas John was coming from someplace that almost didn't have a root. And then applied it to rock. Applied it to what he was doing. I don't know if that makes sense. I know what I'm trying to grasp for here. But it's hard to put it into words. I see Paul at least on some level wanting to entertain in a way that John was more about self expression.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I think the way you just summed it up makes perfect sense. Yes. That Paul appreciates the importance of entertaining. I think John did up to a point. But as the Beatles progress it's less about entertaining and more about entertaining himself as opposed to entertaining an audience.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah, getting something out of his system musically making a statement with it. But some of that might just be obvious and I'm just trying to articulate it in a way that makes sense to me. But in any event, to circle back to your point about his stuff having more staying power. I think there is something to that. Which is not to say what would have all Paul's songs with staying power too. There's always going to be that. But I think that because what John was doing in the 60s maybe came out as so fresh and unprecedented it still retains that power. An observation that I had a while ago was that and you see it all over the White Album is that when you want to point to John's songs from the Beatle era that are the most lasting or more powerful or just the ones that are the keepers as far as groundbreaking stuff goes. And again Strawberry Fields. But people might also point to an In My Life or Help as he did as his favorites There's Walrus come together. There's a handful of like that are in his top bracket as Beatles songs go. And the observation I had and someday I'd like to have this discussion with somebody who understands music theory is that the end products of the songs that originated with him. That end product resulted in something that was much more of a group effort. A Tomorrow Never Knows. Whereas Paul seemed fairly self contained. When you think about a Yesterday or a hey Jude John gets credit for the editing of the one line which was Keep it don't throw it away. Let it be things that you think of as his evergreens or his most lasting Beatles songs. He seemed less reliant on the others for stepping up and running with it than John did.

[Robert Rodriguez]

That is such an interesting observation in that when you get a Paul song, it's maybe 80% Paul and 20% Beatles. When you get a John song, it's maybe 50% John and 50% Beatles because they all stepped up and enhanced his songs, you know, on the White Album, to me, Dear Prudence is the perfect example. It can be just a simple, throwaway, childish kind of ditty that I believe becomes a fully formed song thanks to all of their involvement in what they added to that song. And of course, that was always George's complaint. I think that Paul came in with things fully formed and wasn't as interested in band input anymore. So I think you've really hit on something interesting, that maybe a John song is more what we think of as a Beatles song and a Paul song is more a Paul song with the Beatles as his backing band. Maybe I didn't articulate that quite right.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Sidebud for the Paul.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I think you know what I'm driving at. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Your thoughts?

[Gary Wenstrup]

I haven't dug that deep in this thought. It was something that came to me a while back and I set it aside thinking I want to have this conversation with somebody who knows what's what so they can tell me if I'm wrong or not. So you're the first person I've tried it out on and you seem to agree with it. That's good. There must be something to it. I looked at the White Album and recognized at some point, apart from Julia, every other John song, every memorable John song. They're all, for the most part, rocking band performances, but at least band performances. Dear Prudence, I don't know if I would call that a rock song. It's got some guts to it and everything. Or the aforementioned Bungalow Bill, which you don't care for. That's a community type song. But certainly Happiness is a Warm Gun, certainly your Blues, certainly Sexy Sadie. These are all terrific band performances. Revolution 1. And it is interesting, it's sort of this paradox that the guy that was willing most to ditch the Beatles was the guy that benefited from it the most. One could make that argument.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I totally agree with you. And I think John at some point has described the White Album as each of the Beatles solo with the other Beatles backing him up. And I think when you Listen to this album. I think he's dead wrong. I think this is a full fledged band effort and he's got it totally backwards. The band enhances every song of Obviously Julia. He's the only performer on it. They enhance every song on this album. And they're not backing musicians. John's not directing them. They're coming in with their own game.

[Gary Wenstrup]

They're invested.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Absolutely.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And that's why Ringo had the quote of the White Album. He was much more satisfied with that than Pepper. And he said that he saw that more as a continuation of what they'd started with Revolver, that that was the natural follow up to that. And Revolver. You get the same sort of sense that they're all contributing mightily to each other's tunes. I do think that they got a lot of joy and satisfaction as artists being able to contribute. And John gave them that leeway. As we know about. There's that whole the flower pot conversation where they talk about that. Whereas Paul, again, one of these paradoxes, the guy that wanted to push and keep the Beatles going the longest yet had this major blind spot about walking in there and saying what's what about his songs.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. And we've talked in the past, I think, about George Harrison being so complimentary of John, perhaps with not enough justification, but I think one of the reasons he enjoyed John so much and was so complimentary of him is John let him run free on John's songs. He valued George's input and Paul didn't really value that. And that went a long way with George, that his input was valued.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah, exactly right. I think that for all the people wondering why he had this rage toward Paul and yet was so cozy and everything toward John, who wouldn't give him the time of day on many of his tracks, I think he just answered what could be a logical point of where that's coming from.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Gotcha. Gotcha.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Shall we start?

[Robert Rodriguez]

We shall. Would you like me to lead off? Why don't I jump in?

[Gary Wenstrup]

Sure.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay. So we're going to do our gold, silver and bronze, and we're going to look at disc number one. So we'll confine ourselves to disc number one.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It would be too steep a thing to do three for the entire 30 songs. That would be insane.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. So I'll start my bronze with disc one of the White Album is Paul's. I will. So I heard this album in real time. So I heard it was my Christmas gift from my parents in 1968. So I'm a 10 year old when I'm hearing this, and for me, the White Album, there's a lot of chaos, there's a lot of darkness on this album.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And that was evident to you as a 10 year old in real time?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes. Just trying to make sense of it all, you know, just trying to make sense of the different sounds of Revolution 9 and everybody's got Something To Hide and your blues and Wild Honey Pie. There's just a lot to sort through, you know, we're a long way from Yellow Submarine kind of thing.

[Gary Wenstrup]

So tell me this, were you conscious of world events at the same time, like two major assassinations that year, what happened in Chicago, riots starting when King was killed, cities being burned down, things like that, Vietnam War. So I don't know how deeply you would have thought about this as a 10 year old, but it's a chaotic year. And here is a chaotic album from the Beatles.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Absolutely. I was a newspaper reader as a rotten little kid, so I was well aware of all the chaos that was going on. And to your point, the album reflects that chaos, but that doesn't mean my 10 year old brain enjoyed the chaos in a Beatles album. So for me to hear a song like I Will, it feels so much like something from A Hard Day's Night to my ears. Sort of the percussion, the acoustic approach on the guitar, sort of the gentleness and the sweetness of the lyric was really comforting to me.

[Gary Wenstrup]

A throwback.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, yeah, it was. And I love that early stuff. And we know Paul said it's one of his favorite melodies and I wouldn't disagree with that at all. As I listen to it now, I sort of hear a foretelling of the sound that's going to come on McCartney. One, just sort of a lightness, a casualness. And even the acoustic guitar sound on I Will feels very similar to the acoustic guitar sound on every night from McCartney. 1. In my mind it's a very glistening or bright acoustic sound. Two other things I'd like to add to it. One thing that is not worn well for me is, as you know, Paul sings the bass notes as opposed to plays them. That's gotten old to me. I find myself like my ear being drawn to that and I don't want to be drawn to that. And I feel like he mixed it maybe a little louder than he would have mixed a bass. So that's starting to wear on me, as is the foot tapping on Blackbird. You know, just both those elements just are starting to get old for me.

[Gary Wenstrup]

That's interesting. I never had that problem, even after I knew, after I'd absorbed the information that, you know, what he's singing, the bass part on there, he's vocalizing it, it never became a distraction to me. That's interesting that it did to you. And I've always loved that song, actually. I remember being pleased when the Lovesongs compilation came out and it got scooped up as part of that package, thinking, good, it's giving a little bit of love and attention, because I don't think I ever heard it on the radio unless they were doing a special Beatles feature or something. It was just one of those falling through the cracks type of songs. So I was happy for that. I've always liked that song. In a world where we're doing more than three metals per album, it probably would have made it at least the top five. So I'm glad you covered it for my sake.

[Robert Rodriguez]

You're welcome, Robert. The only other thing I'd like to add, I love the lyric, too. As I interpret the lyric, he has not met the girl of his dreams yet, but he believes he will. I will.

[Gary Wenstrup]

He's manifesting, right?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good way of putting it. But there's that lovely Paul optimism that's in the lyric. I haven't found her yet, but I know she's out there and I'm going to hear her song and it's going to all work out. So the melody is lovely. And I think the lyric is every bit as lovely, too.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It reminds me that optimistic anticipation of a love that's not come into existence yet. Happy Together by the Turtles the key word to that song's lyric is the very first word. Imagine me and you. It's not about a love that already exists. It's about one he's anticipating, so he's projecting onto maybe there is a real female in the singer's life. Imagine me and you, you and me, all that stuff. But it hasn't come to actualization yet. So I could see that as being a similar theme.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right. And we know that he's in the process of finding her with Linda, that they're. You know, she moves in during the recording of this album. Late in the recording of the album.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. September, I believe. Yeah. And I can't remember where this comes in the sequence of recording, but I think the song existed for a while. But it's one of those things that. I think it was definitely in the air, you know, he certainly had his share of female companionship that summer before he landed on the.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes. Right.

[Gary Wenstrup]

So to speak.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Agreed. How about you, Robert? What's your bronze?

[Gary Wenstrup]

One more thought. I was going to mention that you're speaking of it evoking the song from McCartney. 1. It's an interesting observation because I don't think most people knew till much, much later that George is not on that track. Did you know that or did you give it any thought?

[Robert Rodriguez]

No.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah, okay.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Like did he need to be on the track sort of thing? I'm not sure there's a place for him.

[Gary Wenstrup]

No. But my point being it is absolutely Paul playing the part that ordinarily you might ascribe to George that a finger picking sort of lead while he wasn't there that day. It's Paul and therefore it's logical that McCartney's debut album would have an echo of that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I see, I see your point. One of the other things that's remarkable to me about the song, 67 takes, you know, it feels so casual, it feels so light and easy. But that's the beauty of Paul, right? That he can pull off light and easy, but he spends a lot of time to get it right.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I remember back whenever it was. I mean, somebody will remember Better Night but the John Barrett tapes, do you know what that stuff was?

[Robert Rodriguez]

I'm not recalling it. Maybe if you talk about it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Well, it was the bootleg studio quality stuff that came out on CD is like this great wealth of material around the time. I guess just post Lewison's recording sessions book because the reason ascribed to why the Beatles turned on him and had a distaste is because they blamed him for that stuff getting bootlegged, thinking that it came from him listening to all the tape and writing that book. And he swears on a stack of Bibles it was not me. And there are people out there who say, yeah, we know who it was and it was not Mark Lewison. But anyway, first hearing outtakes from the White Album and there's that percussion thing that you hear on I will. That you hear them in the studio playing around with when they're just. When they're warming up and goofing around between takes and stuff. And I remember thinking, oh, that is so cool. We get to hear them coming to terms with this percussion instrument that they're going to purpose for that song. But they had a lot of fun with it on other stuff that they messed around with. I don't know if you've heard of that stuff. The way you look tonight they did and well, certainly. Can you take me back where I came from? It's on that. Yeah, I think it was all the same evening. But anyway, I just remember getting a kick out of that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And as I recall, speaking of getting a kick out of it, I think John plays some of the percussion on this. And John was not known for having a great sense of time, as I understand it. So it's interesting that he's sort of digging in on the percussion as well.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. And the other thing speaking of George again was during the Friar park sequence of anthology in the 90s, when they're getting together to do that stuff and they're sitting on the lawn with the Ukes and he starts playing that song. Oh, yeah, George does.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, that's nice.

[Gary Wenstrup]

As though for the first time, perhaps it was. Yeah, he's figuring out the chord sequence and. Yeah. Then he starts playing Derridoon. Very interesting. Circling back of that particular song. And then one more thing, one more thing I think about now, and that's through the years of listening to the Nagras and where there's that conversation after George quits, but before John and Yoko show up. The famous one where Paul and Michael, Lindsay Hogg and Linda and all that are having this big conversation about the John and Paul problem after George's walkout. And he talks specifically about how he was trying to pin down John to finish up the lyrics to I Will, but Yoko was present and he was feeling very self conscious and thinking he should be writing about white walls. So he ended up finishing it on his own because it just was a non starter.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. How awkward that must have been for him. I would feel completely self conscious as well. And as far as I'm concerned, Paul did a great job all by his lonesome.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yes, very good.

[Robert Rodriguez]

How about you, Robert? What's your bronze?

[Gary Wenstrup]

Probably one that you hate and probably one that a lot of people hate, which is.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Now, wait a minute, wait a minute, Let's. I don't hate any Beatles song. Disdain I don't enjoy, let's say. But let's cut down, though, okay? Okay. No hate here. No hate.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Wild Honey Pie.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, boy.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It's all Paul. Layers and layers of guitars and percussion and little vocal parts and all that stuff. Clearly it's one of these things that took longer to produce than it did to write. It's just a piece of nothing. But it's a compelling piece of nothing. And finding out whether this is true or apocryphal, that it made it to the White Album because Patti liked it, I think just adds a layer of enjoyment to it. So I thought that's Cool. It's a piece of nothing, but it's a unique piece of nothing and it's kind of neat. And I believe it's been sampled in the years since. But again, to me, it's like. If you want to compare this album to what's clearly in the same lineage years later. Tusk.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

With Lindsay messing around.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And some of it works brilliantly, in my opinion. This does not work brilliantly, but I hear exactly what you're saying. Experimental. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But God bless Paul and Lindsay for at least taking a crack at it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah, I'd rather hear it than not hear it. It serves like a bridge, too. Like a little musical thing between the two cuts on either side of it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I believe it's O Bloody Oblada and Bungalow Bill. And, yeah, it act as a bridge between the two of them, if I'm remembering correctly. It's interesting that you pick it. It's so. Is discordant a word? I don't know. It just feels very jarring and unpleasant. It's almost like he's trying to be unpleasant.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And it's preparation for the whole rest of the album.

[Robert Rodriguez]

What do you mean?

[Gary Wenstrup]

The early clue to the new direction.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I don't understand. I don't get it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

If you think this is out of tune, you ain't heard nothing yet, folks.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay, so that's your Bronz. All 52 seconds of it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Is that all it is?

[Robert Rodriguez]

I think it's all it is.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I thought it cracked the one minute.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Barrier because it feels a hell of a lot longer, right?

[Gary Wenstrup]

No, but I quite happily purchased an extended disco mix.

[Robert Rodriguez]

All right, are we ready to move on to a silver?

[Gary Wenstrup]

We are.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay, so my silver is. I'm so tired.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Okay.

[Robert Rodriguez]

For me, it's all about that lazy tempo, that weary sort of dragging, sort of slouching tempo. And the way he sings it, it's so unusual for me. In my 10 year old brain, I'd never heard anything that sounded remotely like this sort of slouching approach to a song. There's so much atmosphere to it. I loved it. And that has never gotten old to me. The other thing that I enjoy about it is there is kind of a journey that goes on in the song where he starts weary and slouching. I'm so tired. And then he kind of works himself up into a frenzy.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It builds to a climax, goes to a climax.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I'm going insane. And then he goes back into weary, only to go through the same process again with even more sort of tension and more sense of panic. And then it ends in this sort of defeated whimper that closes the song.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Paul's a dead man. Miss him? Miss him.

[Robert Rodriguez]

We sort of picked on Paul a little bit, but Paul's background vocals enhance this song. His harmony vocal with John and Ringo's drum fills in the last verse. It's not overly complicated, but, man, I love it when he comes in. And I look forward to that moment. So. Another wonderful.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah, absolutely. I was gonna say that that's another band effort in the service of a John song where they're all stepping up and making great contributions to it, for sure. I'm a little less clear on what George does on that track.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I don't remember. I feel like he plays guitar, but I don't remember.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah, same here. And I like the organ that's on there.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, agreed.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. You hear that throughout the album in some places more obviously than others. And it's a nice touch.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I agree. It's not something they went to very often, but it does add a texture to the White Album that is worthwhile.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yes.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It packs an impact, considering its brevity.

[Robert Rodriguez]

You're absolutely right. It's. What is it, just over two minutes? I don't know exactly.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Something like that. Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, agreed. As is. Probably. I will. Right, so. Man, these short songs, they carry a lot of weight.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Talk about a throwback.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good point.

[Gary Wenstrup]

The Please Please Be album.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Nothing wasted. Any thoughts in particular you had about I'm so Tired?

[Gary Wenstrup]

Well, just as a little callback to my first immersion in bootlegs, and I think it might have been the one called Watching Rainbows Without Checking. But that was one that I was very excited to own because. Had the beautiful full color cover from the Mad Day out session where they're standing here, Paul's got the lavender suit on. And, you know, it was a hodgepodge. A lot of it was Twickenham stuff. Of course, we didn't really know that. There's Blackbird on it, funnily enough. And that was, I think, a 70s recording. I want to say one of the Elf street rehearsals, but I'm not 100% sure. The one where he keeps doing multiple takes dedicated to Edie listeners. Out. Don't know what I'm talking about, but I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that's where they have the Twickenham version of I'm so Tired with Paul singing, Lay off the Booze boy.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Ah, okay.

[Gary Wenstrup]

So that's another one of the things that was very Novel for me as a young fan. And it's like, wow, this is so cool. There's Paul singing a song that I readily loved from the White Album.

[Robert Rodriguez]

What was your interpretation of Lay off the Booze?

[Gary Wenstrup]

That was something that came years later with the Salpi book. And you get the sense there was an awful lot of drinking going on during those sessions, that they come back for lunch and they're clearly intoxicated. And you see little bits of that in the get back film. You know, they got wine around or beer or whatever. So it was absolutely part of the rehearsal process for sure.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Gotcha. How about you, Robert? What's your silver.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Maybe on a different day or a different universe this might be my gold. But again, the exception, proving the rule where so many of John's songs are just so enhanced and brought to life with the band contributions, but this is him on his lonesome. Julia.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, I struggled with this one. I wanted an award and a metal too. What a great song, but go ahead.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Deeply moving. Perhaps an early clue to the new direction in terms of Plastic Ono Band album, where he's directly evoking his mother and Yoko, of course, as Ocean Child. But here he's utilizing the famed trademark Donovan finger picking from Rishikesh. And it's a wonderful arrangement. I was also very pleased years later, when you're hearing the outtakes of the session, Paul encouraging him even though he's not part of it. And. Yeah, so they're there for each other. The brotherhood is still in service at that moment. And just artistically, what a great advance in his art of getting so deeply personal in a way that might be self indulgent or a turnoff to people, but he's inviting us in and it's deeply universal, this longing. It's not specific enough. It's just longing for somebody that's not in his life anymore. While celebrating the new love.

[Robert Rodriguez]

You said it beautifully. There's so much emotional honesty in this. There's a nakedness and a tenderness and a vulnerability that's breathtaking.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah, it's absolutely lovely. And hearing those sentiments, especially coming from the tough guy John rocker that you hear in other places on the album. It's a nice juxtaposition to what's going on around us.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Absolutely. And you mentioned the finger picking style. I just came upon this quote, a podcast that Paul did. I want to say it was 2010 where he referenced John's quote, folk finger picking style. And then Paul went on to say this. He was the only one in the band who could do it properly.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, I thought it was interesting too. And he actually, in this podcast. I'm sorry, I'm looking, it's 2020. He actually names it as one of his favorite John songs. And I had never heard him say that in the past.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Hmm, that's interesting.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I'd seen a discussion among music people at one point about the Travis picking versus other kinds and using a thumb pick and I don't know, all that technical stuff. Maybe someday we'll do a show on it just to suss it all out for people that know even less. But it doesn't matter because they use it so effectively. I do remember the first time I heard look at me thinking, okay, Julia Mach 2. And I could see why. If that was written in 68, I would. If given the choice between two similar songs going with Julia, that's the more powerful one.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Absolutely. For no other reason. Well, there's a lot of reasons, but the lyrics, you know, seashell eyes, windy smile, sleeping sand, silent cloud. Those are beautiful words.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah, Imagery, for sure.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. In beautiful imagery, that look at me.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It was that Calo Gilbron that he quotes that half of what I say is meaningless from.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, actually, I looked that up. Half of what I say is. I think the idea being the other half is what's important. Half of what I say is meaningless. It's the other half that's important. And speaking of, if I'm saying, as Gabriel Gibran, the other line that comes from that is, when I cannot sing my heart, I can only speak my mind. That always struck me as backwards because I feel like the song he is singing his heart as opposed to speaking his mind.

[Gary Wenstrup]

When I cannot speak my mind, I can only sing my heart. Yes.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, it always felt a little backwards to me, but apparently.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Don't argue with poets.

[Robert Rodriguez]

But apparently Gibran it derived from, when life does not find a singer to sing her heart, she produces a philosopher to speak her mind. So that's the full line.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I don't think that would scan well in the song.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right. So it adds some logic, I guess, to why John sings it the way he does.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And as we've talked about on the show before, it was Cameron Grider who pointed it out that in tracing the body of their work and the single note melodies, Julia is the champ with 17 repeats of the same note of all his songs. A bluesy affectation, but also associated with somebody speaking the truth about their life. And I think like everything else John did intuitively, it works beautifully without sounding in any way like an affectation.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. You mentioned the Yoko connection and that Ocean Child is Yoko in Japanese.

[Gary Wenstrup]

If I've got that right, that's what John would say. Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay. I love the idea that she's calling me.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Ju.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And what I feel like John is singing to Julia is, I found her. You know, I found the one. I'm going to be okay now. You know, I missed you and it was terrible how I lost you, but since I found her, I'm going to be okay now she's calling me. And that's a sweet extra layer in the song.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. What was. I'm thinking about the Playboy interview. The Walrus was Paul, where he's explaining here, paul, have this stroke, have this crumb, because I'm leaving you. So he's saying his goodbyes to everybody throughout the White Album.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, boy. That's a whole other podcast to chew on that. All the people being said goodbye to on the White Album. Wow. Turned me on. Deadman. Indeed.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yes. So that was my silver.

[Robert Rodriguez]

That was your silver that I sort of hijacked a little bit there. Sorry.

[Gary Wenstrup]

No, it's fine, it's fine.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I love that song, too. So that takes me to my gold, which is. Dear Prudence. Your listeners, I'm sure, know the backstory that Prudence was Mia Farrow's sister. She was with them in India. She had locked herself away because, as John says, she was trying to get to God quicker than anyone else. And so they got concerned about her and they decided they should write a song to try to get her to come out of her bungalow. And Prudence didn't appreciate it. She said they were trying to be cheerful, but I wish they'd go away. And I didn't know this. I just read this recently, that Prudence is a lifelong devotee to meditation, but she was attracted to it because she had a bad LSD trip. Did you ever heard that before?

[Gary Wenstrup]

No. Or if I did, I might have forgotten it. But I know that in recent years. Well, 10 years ago, she was at the fest doing a TM mini symposium camp there. So, yes, Susan Shumsky has written about her as well in her books. We've had her on the show. So, yeah, it's an ongoing thing and. And definitely, depending on who you talk to, the degree of what went down in Rishikesh and the Beatles, trying to bring her to some semblance of normalcy that went unappreciated was the framework that the song emerged from. And it's an interesting thing that there's not too many living people, actual people not named Yoko, that John wrote songs about, but that would be one on the White Album, the other being Bungalow Bill, the son of the heiress, the tiger hunter that quit that day after being confronted about it at dinner.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Did he really?

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah, he did.

[Robert Rodriguez]

He threw in the towel or threw in his bullets.

[Gary Wenstrup]

He became a nature photographer for National Geographic.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, I do remember that. Okay, gotcha.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but it's interesting, John writing about what's going on around him and Dear Prudence being this lovely song. I remember the first time I heard the White Album, which of course was years after it came out. And this was not a radio song, this was not a compilation song. So I'm hearing it in real time as I'm getting into the White Album side one for the first time and thinking, this doesn't sound like any Beatles I've ever heard before. And I think one of the elements was that deep look around round part, that it sounded contemporary to me. It sounded like a brand new recording, like something that could have been made in the 70s and not something going back to the 60s. I can still to this day remember. That was my initial impression, hearing that song, which is in no way detracting from it. To me, it was evidence of the Beatles as chameleons. It's like they really are shape shifters on this album.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Go further with that. How do you mean? This is shape shifting.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It was not an overtly Beatles sounding song to me. I'm hearing it fresh for the first time. I know it's a Beatles album called in fact, the Beatles, and I know it's John Lennon singing it. But by that time, I'd heard several John Lennon solo albums, so I was used to him being on his own. And I'm listening to this song thinking this is really a compelling song that to me doesn't sound in any obvious way like the Beatles. And then of course, later on you find out, oh, Ringo's not playing drums on this. So that's another element you've got. Jackie Lomax is one of the backing boys is on that. And so that's another non beatle element. And circling back to the Ringo thing, there is reason to think that he in fact, is contributing to the coda, that amazing drum part there. But that's a whole other conversation that's been on other podcasts. But as a drummer myself, I tend to lean that way.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay.

[Gary Wenstrup]

But as a whole, everything about it is a fantastic Performance, everything about it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Agreed. And the drumming, Paul by himself or Ringo enhancing it adds so much drama.

[Gary Wenstrup]

To the song and the bass as well.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, totally agree. And this would be, to me, the prime example of a. Not a throwaway John song, but a very simple, childish, folky, simple song that the band totally enhances. And the song keeps building and keeps getting more interesting. And I would submit you will probably have a good argument to this, but I would submit that John never recorded a solo song with this much dynamic sound and energy and drama and sort of rich soundscape. I can't think of any song in his solo career that's got so much going for it as this song does.

[Gary Wenstrup]

You're right. Nothing comes to mind this second. There's definitely, within his body of work, post Beatles, I think, a reduced landscape, to put it one way.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. The only song I can sort of think of off the top of my head is I Don't Want To Be a Soldier. To me, there's a lot of soundscape and a lot going on with that, but it sort of starts, but it's.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Sort of the same tone throughout, rather than really hitting a climax, unless you want to count that sax at the end, King Curtis. But even something that's really well produced and evocative, like Number Nine Dream, it's not like it starts out and then builds to something. Yes, this song, Dear Prudence, absolutely has a climax to it, the same way the aforementioned I'm so Tired does. Very different songs, but you see that trajectory in both cases.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes, yes. And you're totally right. Number Nine Dream and I Don't Want To Be A Soldier, they start in the same place that they end. And you're absolutely right, but an amazing song that I'm not sure John ever found backing musicians that could enhance what he did, like the Beatles did.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. Certainly one can make the case of musicianship being superior in some cases, but that's not the same thing as vision and creativity. And I don't know how much latitude he gave people he was working with post Beatles. Did he tell them, write your own parts? I think Klaus has said as much. Klaus was given free rein when he played bass for John, but he was never the kind of micromanager that Paul was in terms of. I want this to go here. I mean, maybe in certain little instances where he had an actual idea. I don't know, it's hard to say, but it seems like the other three, Ringo, Paul and George, really got John and understood his vision, which is natural from the path they all shared, beginning as teenagers. So when he put something on the table, here's what I got, lads. They could take a look at it and listen to it and go, okay, we know where this needs to go. Serving the dual purposes of making a concrete vision of this song, making it real as well as pleasing John, you.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Articulated that very well. I totally agree. I couldn't add anything to that.

[Gary Wenstrup]

But then I think about that whole conversation, the flowerpot conversation, where John says that in the past he was too intimidated by Paul coming in strong in ideas of how a song should go, even overriding John's own vision for the song, because Paul's the guy, he understands music and can hear and know exactly where to take it. He can come up with a vision like that in a way that John didn't always. John spoke in abstract and in color and visually when he described music. And Paul had the more innate musicality to know how to execute. But it wasn't always too the vision John had in the first place.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And we'll never know.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I'm taking John's word for it. That's what John said.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, we'll never know if my guess is Paul enhanced a song.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Right. But when in that conversation Jon is saying, well, I had my own ideas and the only time I got what I wanted is if I gave it to George to play.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, right. Good point, Good point.

[Gary Wenstrup]

So I wonder about this song, if this was one that he felt didn't fulfill his expectations, because maybe Paul came out a little too strong. He doesn't cite it by name. And I think he has spoken of it in fairly positive terms in a way that he didn't about a lot of his own stuff.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I think that's true, but I've never heard him listed as one of his favorites.

[Gary Wenstrup]

No.

[Robert Rodriguez]

No. And John does it, you know, eats Strawberry Fields. And the song sort of evokes because from Abbey Road, this celebration of nature and a celebration of childhood. It's interesting how John. We think of Paul as kind of the outdoorsy guy, loving his dogs and ponies and his farm in Scotland, part of the country. Right. But John certainly loves to tap into the sky and the sun and the wind as well.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yes. And we do know that there was a nature lecture, at least one that Maharishi delivered in Rishikesh that spawned Child of Nature as well as Mother Nature's son.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, good call. Good call, Robert. All right, your gold. What do you got?

[Gary Wenstrup]

Oh, my gold. Okay, well, this was a tough one because side one and two, there's so many amazing performances and compositions. And if you just to make it easier to arrive at a decision, take off the table. The over familiar ones. Oh blah d'oh blah dah Back in ussr those are way over familiar. We already spoke about Blackbird on side two. Martha, My Dear is a tour de force. Musically. It's just a terrific musicality going on there, but it's not one that I can enjoy it as a tune, admire it, but it doesn't make me think, you know, it doesn't stay with me in the same way. It entertains me, you know, and that's, I guess, Paul's thing is entertaining. George Piggy's, I would have to say, is probably one of my least favorite compositions of his. There's something really mannered about it that I get that he's angry a la Taxman, but at least Taxman had some bite to it. And this just seems a little twee. The arrangement with the harpsichord, and it's just a sweeping condemnation from Mr. Hare Krishna. While My Guitar Gently Weeps is another one that's a bit over familiar. I loved the acoustic one the first time I heard it. And, yeah, it's a great thing. It's funny. I'm not going to play the game of what I'd reject or throw away from the White Album making a single disc, but Glass Onion is a song I held in more esteem once than I do now, and I can't defend it. I can't say it's over familiarity either. It's a song that I liked initially and now it doesn't have the staying power for me, for whatever reason.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I've gone through the same process. It hasn't aged well for me. It's fine. Maybe I'm not crazy about the string arrangement, John's lyrics. I think there's a lot of throwaway kind of stuff in it that doesn't work for the Walrus was Just doesn't work for me. So I share that.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Gratuitous.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I do think I like Bungalow Bill more than you do. That's one that I have a fondness for and I can't defend it or intellectualize it. I just like it. Okay. It sounds like they're having fun.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Okay. Why don't we do it in the Road is a fun little piece of nothing.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I think I would have liked to have heard a band version of that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

It works for me the way it is. Paul does a serviceable job with it, for sure. John certainly wanted a banned version of it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. It's one of the things he niggled about as far as it being a point of resentment. Don't pass me by. It's fine. It's cute. It's a little lo fi for some reason. I just never thought it was produced with much clarity. It's interesting you like that sort of thing. It's cute. Rocky, raccoon, same thing. It's not one I need to hear a million more times in my life.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I do respect that, that Paul picked that genre and went in deep and pulled it off.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. It just is not one that entrances me with further listenings. It's like, again, you're being entertained.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, that's a good. And Martha, my Dear, is probably the shining example of that. Extremely entertaining, but you don't think about it at all.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Right. So I guess that circles back to. I keep saying that in this conversation. Circles back. Geez, I hate that. I hate using expressions to death. Anyway. Happiness and Warm Gun.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay, great.

[Gary Wenstrup]

That's my gold for this first record. Now, it's funny you haven't brought it up to this point, but I always admired it as a band performance and I guess John was quite proud of it as well. It is a little tricky to play because there's some time signature things where you got the beat doing one thing, but the music on top of it is doing something else. Somebody else can articulate it better than me, but. But you know it when you're trying to play that song, as I have done in a band situation, and it's tricky, you have to stay focused on your own part to get through it. But I thought it was an interesting thing that John didn't do a whole lot of Sweets, as it were. You know, the kind of thing that Paul specialized in post Beatles or even arguably on Abbey Road, where it's a song that is comprised of different discrete parts shoved together and made to work. Uncle Albert being an obvious example. John didn't tend to traffic in that sort of thing. But here's a song, I've heard it described as like an encapsulation of the history of rock and roll. Yeah, that might be one thing you can hang on. It has a theme, but to me it's a great band performance, a great vocal performance, and you get the bits of imagery that. It's the kind of thing where you can go so wrong, where you're just throwing words and adjectives together trying to come up with a fresh description of something. I think, personally, as much as I like the track, Lucy in the sky suffers from that, some of the things they throw in there, like newspaper taxis and marshmallow people or whatever it is, has aged badly for me at least. But hobnail boots, soap impression of his wife. Again, weird sort of juxtapositions and sort of freestyling these abstract, descriptive things. That hasn't gone stale for me. And maybe it's because it's delivered with such conviction and the band performance is so powerful that you don't even think about looking for meaning. Just listen to the whole of it and it's amazing.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, that is true. If you look for meaning, you're going to struggle to find it. In a lot of the song you mentioned, the time signature changes. It really is a great journey. I'm not smart enough to know about the time signature changes, but it sort of starts reflective and then it goes sinister and then it goes druggie and then it gets really abrasive. You know, his sort of doo wop thing at the end. So it really is an interesting journey of a song. And that doo wop thing at the end has always been such of a curiosity to me. And I guess what gets me about it or what I find, I keep trying to wrap my arms around. So it's got a doo wop feel to it. And in a doo wop, kind of back in the 50s, when I hold you in my arms, you know the stars start to sing and the moon.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Begins to glow Goes in a different direction.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Well, John, take. You know, when I hold you I feel my finger on your trigger. It just gets so aggressive and abrasive.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Not suitable for work.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And part of me enjoys it and part of me, like, yikes. That's so aggressive.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yikes. Show me more Yikes.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Like you. It's just a really interesting journey of a song and a great band. And apparently they loved it. From what I've read, it took 95 takes and they loved working through the complexities of it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah, It's a keeper. It's a great one. And, you know, there are covers of it. You might have heard the Breeders version.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And they're good for what they are, but I think they nailed it. I think it's one that I'm almost glad they didn't do a live version of because I think it just would have disappointed me.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Huh. Why?

[Gary Wenstrup]

Because I think the performance that they nailed, it's like lightning in a bottle. They got it, and I can't envision a way to make that performance better.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Huh. And I guess I look at it. It was so good. And it's such an ensemble and the instrumentation is so simple. I would love to see it live.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Well, I'm girding for it being disappointing. Like, dammit, the vocal's not as good or they screwed up that part.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And yeah, I understand what you're saying. How do you improve upon this? I get it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I recognize that it's tricky. It is tricky. So to hear the Beatles performing it and falling apart would be so disillusioning.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I get it. You know, and one of the things that makes Beatles song so hard to do well is the vocals, you know. How do you improve upon John's vocal and Paul's vocal? In most songs, you can't.

[Gary Wenstrup]

That's where a lot of bands, no matter what their degree of musicianship, that are Beatle tribute bands. And I was going to say I have seen the song perform live because the Fab Faux did it when they did the White Album. And it's a fabulous thing because they're playing the whole album and they've got strings and they've got harpist and brass and all that stuff. So it really is the closest you'll get to seeing that album brought to life. But yes, there's only one John Lennon, one Paul McCartney, one George Harrison. Those vocals, I don't care how good a singer you are technically, that quality, that timbre, that sound you're never going to find anywhere else. And people knew that in Liverpool. It's just amazing that they had, for people who were not siblings, such a powerful vocal blend. Intuitive vocal blend of people that didn't share the same blood.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Well stated.

[Gary Wenstrup]

This is Lawrence Lanahan, journalist, musician and host of Rearranged, an Osiris Media podcast about music arranging. Once a solitary is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. We're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment like horns and strings, or doing a cover version of a song. Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustic, even tiny decisions like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turn of frame. It's all arranging. Rearranged Episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song change the meaning you take from it? Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. Tune into Rearranged and maybe it'll happen for you too. Learn more@reranged podcast.com Osiris hey everyone, it's Chris Pandolfi.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Inviting you to check out the new.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Season of my podcast, Inside the Musician's Brain, with new episodes airing now. Hearing it in that room, these guys playing this thing and trying to figure out how to play this song was mind blowing. It's so inspiring to know there's so much more to it than you ever thought, and it just opened another door. But when people find faith, because they need to, in terms of just filling a void to feel better without actually.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Being better, that's when it becomes a crutch, much like, you know, drugs and alcohol do.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Man, I don't have all the time in the world here if I want to be a professional bluegrass musician. I felt like I had to take a very, like, strategic approach, just trying to get rid of the barriers and figure out what those barriers were.

[Robert Rodriguez]

The feelings still come and I have.

[Gary Wenstrup]

To reckon with that, but I think I have better ways of moving forward and not being stuck, which I think was the killer for me. Catch all that and so much more on the new season of Inside the Musician's Brain. I will tell you that for sides three and four, this was a lot tougher for me to pick silver, gold, and bronze, because one might argue that the two are completely related. I try to not argue or try to say they're unrelated and it's strictly musical, but I find that I like sides three and four a lot more than I like sides one and two. Now, you might think to the extent that one quantifies art and music, maybe you find the music stronger. The last two sides, that could be. But what I will relate to you is my exposure to the White Album when I was a young fan, even before I had the vinyl. I may have mentioned this on the show. In fact, I know I have from time to time that my mother during the 1970s, worked at Ampex, which is a tape manufacturing company, and we consequently had a lot of reel to reel tape in the house, lots of it. And my parents seemingly bought tape at random because a lot of what we had in the house did not reflect their tastes. My dad's was pretty much everything but rock for most of our years, and my mom liked pop. Neither one of them were particularly Beetle fans, and yet we had an awful lot of Beetle tape in the house, which I conclude they bought simply because they could and that they were just trying to provide an environment and maybe one of their kids would pick up on it. And certainly I did. So we had a number of Capitol Beatle albums on reel to reel tape and some Apple stuff we did not have Abbey Road, but we did have Let It Be. It was all very random. We didn't have Pepper, but we had Magical Mystery Tour. But then we had this thing that reminded me of the COVID of Let It Be because it was four shots of the individual Beatles, all black and all white. And the apparent title was Volume 2, the Beatles Volume 2. There was no other name on it except for the names of the songs. It took me a long, long time to find out this was the second set of the two set, the Beatles album 68. I did not know that probably till my first exposure to, if not Beatles Illustrated Record. I think actually I might have seen my first Beatles discography even before I had the Red and the Blue albums, because it came with a discography sheet in the back as an appendix to Longest Cocktail Party. Because I associate that in my head where I learned, oh, Volume Two is actually the second half of the Beatles, AKA the White Album. But before I knew any of this, I didn't know what the hell it was. I thought, this is part of something, or maybe it's just a random title they did just to be weird. But it reminded me a bit of Let It Be because it was four individual pictures of the Beatles and Paul in that white album picture in high contrast. Looks like he has a beard. He's got the start of a beard in the White album picture. But anyway, so my introduction to the White Album came sort of sideways through 3 and 4, not knowing of 1 and 2's existence. And it was just this, whatever the hell this is. So I fell in love with the White Album second half through that reel to reel tape. And the other thing that I didn't know till much later, till I had the vinyl, was that the songs were edited on that reel to reel tape. They cut a verse out of your blues. The can youn Take Me Back Where I Came from was gone. That wasn't there. There was odd little edits that they did to make it fit the reel to reel for whatever reason. But anyway, so I didn't hear the full White Album till much later on, but that was my first exposure. So that I can say sides three and four, I favor more than one and two. One could say, oh, obviously, because you know them better because you had a leg up. You heard them before you heard the other tape. I recognize that that's an argument. I'm not sure I agree with it because I do think it comes down to I like the music better.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Well, God knows you've spent enough time with both sides That I think you have every right to make that conclusion.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny that there's a part of sides one and two that are still slightly alien to me. Obviously, I've heard them 10 million times, but I've heard 3 and 450 million times.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Gotcha. But my own curiosity. So how long was it between hearing disc two before you actually heard disc one?

[Gary Wenstrup]

Probably the eternity of about a year and a half.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay. Which is a long time when you're a kid.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Absolutely. It's huge. Because suddenly grade school becomes junior high school. It's a huge leap.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. And I will share that. I'm the exact opposite of you.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Oh, yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I got the album as a Christmas gift from my folks in the moment, so thanks, mom and dad. And so I got it all as one full package along with the poster and the glossies that came with it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Did you hang them?

[Robert Rodriguez]

I did not. And one of the reasons I didn't is I did not like the poster. To this day, I don't like the poster. But the pictures look too nice to, like, put tape on them or pinholes in them, so I didn't hang them.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Interesting.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Did you scrutinize the lyrics?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, sure. Absolutely. So for me, disc one, I just looked at it really quickly. There's 17 songs on disc one. I really enjoy eight of them. And I won't bore you with which eight. But then on disc number two, there are 13 tracks. I really only enjoy four of them. Ooh, I know, I know, I know. To me, it's a night and day difference between disc one and disc two, and the exact opposite of how you feel about it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Wow. I'm curious what the four are, and what are the ones that would be kept off your single disc, White Album.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay, so on disc two, I want to be clear. There's, like, maybe I can count on one hand the number of bad Beatles songs. I'm not saying any of these songs are bad, but I am saying I think they lack an element that makes me want to listen to them again. I don't need to hear Birthday again. I don't need to hear Revolution One again. I don't need to hear Revolution Number Nine again. I don't need to hear Everybody's Got Something to Hide again. They just have lost their luster for me.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Wow. Can you say that of any other Beatle album?

[Robert Rodriguez]

No, I can't. I can't.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Wow.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And I didn't name Long Long Long. It's not one of my favorites. I don't care for that song. So you and I are just on opposite sides of the fence on this one.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Opposite galaxies.

[Robert Rodriguez]

So far away. Yeah, agreed. Which is why for me, picking my gold, silver and bronze for disc one was really hard. And why it's really hard on disc two is I struggle to find a third song that I think is worthy of a medal.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you say you found four songs on this that you would like to hear again on size three and four?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Five. I was wrong.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Five, five. Okay.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

So what would the outside, the sphere of silver, gold and bronze be?

[Robert Rodriguez]

The only ones outside? What I would give a medal to that I'd like to listen to more frequently. Are your blues Mother nature's son?

[Gary Wenstrup]

Okay, so those are two. Pasture three. Is there more?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Wait, what's the question again? I'm getting confused. What?

[Gary Wenstrup]

I'm picking three of the songs that you find redeemable on sides three and four. You're giving medals to.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And I just asked what were the other one or two beyond that that could have. Yes.

[Robert Rodriguez]

So Savoy Truffle could have. Goodnight could have. Your blues could have. Mother Nature's son could have. And I'd say that's it. And those are stretches for me.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Wow. See, not me. To me, it was really, really hard coming up with distilling it down to three.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I know.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Incredibly hard.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I know. I don't know what to say. So we're different on this one.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

So this could be really fun to do. Disc two. Or it could be very destructive to our relationship.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I continue to get a buzz out of Birthday. I love it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

What about it? For goodness sakes.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It's such a great performance. You feel the fun that was in that room. Even if you didn't know the backstory, this party atmosphere, they just watch. The girl can't help it, so they're all jazzed up. 50s rock and roll. The women singing on it, that does not detract. Ringo rock solid and confident. And Paul singing his ass off. John joining him, making it sound more beatly rather than just four guys going separate ways. I love it. It's a fun song to play in a band. It doesn't grow old for me. I don't know why it seems like there was a Temporarian cover of it in the top 40. Like some local one hit wonder band did a version of it. But I remember I was aware of a non Beatles version of Birthday when I was very, very young. Because by the time I eventually did hear the Beatles version, it's like, oh, I know this, but this is better.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I would like you to dance Take a cha cha cha chance I would like you to dance but it was a thing anyway. That didn't even make my top three.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Thank goodness for that.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Well, we can start. Ruby Bronze. I'm very curious of what passes muster.

[Robert Rodriguez]

With you and just barely honey piece.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Okay.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I know it's like John would say, his granny music, but it works for me. It's Paul's music hall, vaudeville, kind of Fred Astaire send up. But it's so pure to my ears. Not that I was alive during this time. Musically, stylistically, it just feels really authentic. And I respect that.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Isn't that perverse at a time in music where authenticity was something of great value? So they meant you're being true to who you are. Perversely, this 1920 pop song from Paul McCartney is authentic because you absolutely buy it. Yes, Paul, that's where your heart lies. This is you. Yes, it's authentic to you.

[Robert Rodriguez]

That's well stated. And John may not think it's authentic because it's not about Paul, but it doesn't make it any less authentic musically.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It's a different kind of authenticity, for sure. And by the way, the whole John dissing and granny music and all that shit. Okay, go ahead. You have a point here.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I couldn't agree with you more. It's the road I wanted to go down. John may dismiss it, but I think it's revisionist history. As you know, he plays lead guitar on this and nails it. And completely nails it. Even George, I just read, called it, quote, unquote, brilliant.

[Gary Wenstrup]

He called it like, you close your eyes and just the right notes come out. It's like him channeling Django. That's what he said of John admiring it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I didn't know that full quote, but that's an incredible compliment.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Sure.

[Robert Rodriguez]

So to pick out those notes, to me, says, Jon is fully in the same headspace as Paul.

[Gary Wenstrup]

100%.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I'm totally digging it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

He was a closet Bing Crosby fan.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Absolutely, he was.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And maybe he couldn't quite justify it to Yoko, so he had a piss on it later. But no, that's where his heart lies, clearly.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And he is fully committed in this song, DePaul's vision. So shut up, John.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Do you know the anecdote concerning the recording of this song?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Tell me.

[Gary Wenstrup]

They're at Trident, okay. And you've probably seen the pictures because there's documentation of them. I think when they're doing the horn overdubs of Them in the studio. Anyway, that was the occasion where Jimmy Webb came to visit them in the studio.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Wow.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Do you know that story?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Nuh, I hadn't heard that story.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Okay. I believe it's in his memoir. So he comes believing he's been invited by them.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And so he comes watching. And obviously, if you're any kind of musician at all, you are just in awe of not only meeting the Beatles, but seeing them at work. So this is momentous. This is huge for him. And I guess he gets to the session, they're busy doing their thing. And he describes it beautifully in the book, the layout that apparently had Trident, wherever the control room was. You could look down at the studio floor, just like EMI Studio 2, but the drums would have been right beneath you. So he can hear Ringo, but he can't see him. But he's making small talk with George Martin, and George Martin is describing how MacArthur park was an inspiration to them for hey Jude. In terms of length of a single, it was the big hit that year. I think it was number two or something like that in the States. And that. That's what gave him the sense enough to think this could work if we stretch it out. So that's what they were going for anyway. So at whatever point they'd taken a break, they'd done whatever they need to do. And Paul starts to introduce him to everybody as Tom Dowd.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, boy. I mean, I like Tom Dowd fine, but whoosh. That's gotta be harsh for Jimmy Webb.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And that's how he took it at the time till he found out later from somebody else that's how they are with everybody. He knows who you are.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, is that right?

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yes.

[Robert Rodriguez]

So you had me under your spell. I fell for it, too. I'm Jimmy Webb 60 years later.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It's an added layer when I hear that song. Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

You mentioned, actually the horn overdubs that he was perhaps present for. I love that little horn swirl that comes after. I love that. Across the sea. Right. It comes right after across the Sea, which sounds like, you know, it could be a ship blowing across the sea. I love that little horn swirl. It reminds me, I don't know why, of wizard of Oz. And it also is part of one of the things that I've misheard all these years. And I like my version much better where he sings Play It To Me. I thought he was always saying, play it to me. Hollywood Blues. And I thought, oh, yeah, this is a Hollywood blues. Not that I know what the hell a Hollywood blues song is, but If. If there is a Hollywood Blues song.

[Gary Wenstrup]

If there is such a thing, this is it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Exactly. And find out that he wasn't saying Hollywood Blues, he was just saying honey, the blues. So that was a bummer.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Airline's better.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Thank you.

[Gary Wenstrup]

You have your moments.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I'll take what I can get. So I have a lot of enthusiasm for the song.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

As you can hear. But sort of in the scheme of their catalog, it's not one I would put probably in the top 25.

[Gary Wenstrup]

No. But it's a highly entertaining song. There's intellectual reasons. You can like something like, oh, John played a great solo on it. Oh, they took the piss out of Jimmy Webb on it. Whatever. But as a track, as a piece of music, as a piece of audio atmosphere, it's terrific. I can enjoy it without thinking too deeply about it. It's a lot of fun. And I know that There is a YouTube video that a listener of the show sent me where somebody on YouTube was trying to dive down deep to see who the song might have been about. As of this taping, I haven't watched the whole video. I started to watch it, but I got interrupted. But I will finish it at some point and I'll link it on the sappy site. But it was one of these things where somebody did exploration of. Yes. He says it's a fictitious character, but there clearly is the markers of it being actually inspired by somebody. And Paul's stories change all the time anyway.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Wow. I'd be very surprised. It feels like something that popped straight out of Paul's imagination. I'd be very surprised if it's based in any way on reality.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. Now she's hit the big time. That line, the way they filtered to make it sound like a 78.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I remember years later, as a Monkees fan, when I finally got to hear the Birds, the Bees and the Monkees album, which most Monkees fans like it better than I do. It's definitely on the downward slope at that point. But there's a song on there that Nesmith does called Magnolia Sims.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And he uses that effect and includes a skip in it to make it sound like you're listening to a 2078.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

But it's like a direct. Actually, I shouldn't say it's an echo because that song came out earlier in the year than Honey Pie did.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, did it? Okay.

[Gary Wenstrup]

So I'm here, though. Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Good for Mike Nesmith, a visionary. Yeah. So we're in a good place right now, Robert, with Honey Pie. So you want to Share your bronze and we'll see if we can still sort of stay together on this, Right?

[Gary Wenstrup]

As I said, incredibly tough because there's so many songs on these two sides I love a lot. I think that having taken you on this journey, as they do over the four sides of this thing, if you are building to a climax overall, the way we describe for certain songs, building to a climax, like I'm so Tired and you reach this point, there's that lull before the storm of can you take me back where I came from? Before plunging into Revolution 9, it's like the only place left to go. And again, we talked about Martin and I on the humor show, where the Beatles would oftentimes end an album or end a heavy statement with some kind of joke or twist. The only place you can go is Good Night. And it's perfect. Not only is Good Night, you're like the end of an evening, but the possibly over lush strings and arrangement and complete 180 from everything the Beatles stood for as a rock band, as a beat group, is what they're presenting. And then putting their least accomplished singer in the role of crooner on that for Good Night, to me, it absolutely works as a musical joke coming after the chaos and tumultuousness of Revolution 9. So there's the joke ending that album, but to me it stands as a lovely piece unto itself. I hope to God I live long enough to see the day that they find John Lennon's demo of that song, because apparently there was one and it's missing in action, and that would just be astonishing. I'm sure somebody's already started working on an AI recreation of it or something. But I'd like to hear the real thing. Thank you. And counterintuitively, I always thought that maybe Ringo got the idea hearing himself amidst an orchestra. That might have been the impetus for Sentimental Journey, but more in the Goodnight vein than even Sentimental Journey is a track on Goodnight Vienna written by Nilsson, called Easy for your. Yeah, I love that song, if you know that song.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Sure do.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It's lovely.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Absolutely.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And it's much more pared down, so I always thought that it's so counterintuitive, but you put him in that musical environment and it kind of works on some level, I think. Anyway, doesn't jar me.

[Robert Rodriguez]

It does work sometimes, I think, because he's kind of a showman and he feels comfortable in a show kind of atmosphere, but for me, listening to Sentimental Journey, that is not a strong piece of work. He just doesn't have the Vocal chops to pull it off.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Well, that's a bit all over the map. The arrangements on that song. And I mean not all Tin Pan Alley, Great American Songbook songs are created equal. Something more lush might have worked than some of the big band brash Sinatra type stuff that's on there.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, to your point.

[Gary Wenstrup]

But anyway, I digress as far as picking songs from side three and four. Revolution one. I go in and out on that one.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Ironically kept me in or out.

[Gary Wenstrup]

There's times when I. Yeah, I'm more into it than other times. I'd never dislike it. I like it just fine. Love honey pie now on this day Falling a shade outside my top three. Savoy Truffle Because I love that song. It's a great performance. Atypical Harry Jorgen singing about something mundane. It's sort of an in joke composition but it rocks. It's got a great vibe to it. But he doesn't tend to rock hard very much ever. Even less so outside the Beatles really. But the brass on it, the solo even. It's small, but it's got that snarl to it. Everything about that works. I just love that track. That was a tough one.

[Robert Rodriguez]

That's one I do enjoy listening to. The distorted horns are a little too reminiscent of Good morning, Good morning for me. And you mentioned the light heartedness of the lyric because he's basically name checking candies. But he does take it to a darker place. What is sweet now turns so sour the pain cuts through the sweat is going to fill your head. So he certainly takes it in a darker place than where it starts. It's a really interesting track. I agree.

[Gary Wenstrup]

You do know what he's singing about, right?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh yeah. A Box of Candy.

[Gary Wenstrup]

No, who in particular?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh yeah. Eric Clapton was.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Right. Right. So he's singing it to him about basically you're going to have traditional English teeth by the time you're 30.

[Robert Rodriguez]

But I do like that darker element. So it's not a complete joke. It does have a dark undertone to it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It does, yeah. I love it. But ultimately having to pick something, I picked Crybaby Cry.

[Robert Rodriguez]

So Crybaby Cry is your bronze?

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yes.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay, got it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Because I know that from having read Hunter Davies back when I was a kid that this was a song long in gestation. He had the basic hook of it as of early 67.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, that's right.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And it took him a while to.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Flesh it out with a different lyric. Right, yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yes. Uh huh. And it goes down that path of. To me at least. I don't know if he ever spoke to this, because he tended to be so dismissive of so many things after the fact. A bit of Lewis Carroll in terms of sort of fairy tale, rich in imagery, series of impressions of different scenes going on. And to me, it's a very, very visual song, like a lot of his tended to be, I should say a very visual lyric. He's describing a bunch of scenarios that I always thought, in a way, Cleanup time on Double Fantasy was a little bit of a callback to the king is doing this, the queen is doing this. And maybe they're both in the same source material of whatever nursery rhyme they came from.

[Robert Rodriguez]

They might be, yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. But in any event, there's a spookiness to it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Totally agree.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And I always felt a vibe that by the time you got to side four, you were late in the evening. And the songs sort of build up to that crescendo of revolution. 9 and good night Comes just before the breaking of the dawn. That's the way I always sort of heard it. But Crybaby Cry absolutely has got a spookiness and a darkness to it, even if it's not blatantly dark or malevolent. It's more suggested, more Hitchcockian.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, Hitchcockian. Nice. I totally agree. I'm guessing it might be because of the descending chords that give it that feel, but I totally agree. There's a slightly sinister feel to it, and it. It's fun, but there's still a creepiness that lies at the base of it. I totally agree with you. Well stated.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And that tremolo in his voice, too, which he doesn't do a whole lot of. There's just something about. On the very last line of the.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Song, she's old enough to know better, so cry baby, cry. I was just gonna go back to something you said earlier that he did call it, quote, a piece of rubbish if it wasn't personal when he's doing his interviews, it has no relevance to him, but it's really wonderful song craft.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I would wonder, and this is not a slam, it's just an observation. If a David Sheff or somebody who sat him down to go through all his songs had done that in 1974 rather than 1980, how he might have recalled these things.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, good point. He was seemingly in a much better headspace in 74 than he was in 1980.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And certainly warmer toward the Beatles and his body of work.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And warmer towards an interviewer. Yeah, agreed.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. Anyway, that's one that. And again, I didn't hear that Coda that was grafted onto it till much later, after I'd gotten acclimated to the song. But it is a cherry on the top, for sure. We know about that. October 16th, 17th, 24 hour session. John and Paul sequencing the album, putting it all together, doing the cuts and all that stuff. They had that piece of tape lying around from the I Will session and they used it. It's like a composition unto itself of Paul just doing his thing, just noodling. And it works. It's a beautiful bridge between crybaby Cry and Revolution 9.

[Robert Rodriguez]

No argument for me. One other thing I want to comment that Darkness again, the bridge of the darkness. One other thing I want to mention. I get a kick out of this song. I don't know whether John intended it, but the adults in the song seem silly and kind of ridiculous. Having trouble with the message that the burden be they seem silly is the only word that's coming to me. They're not serious characters, whereas the children are the clever ones who are able to conjure voices out of nowhere for a luck burlark. Right. But it sort of speaks to a lot of John's lyrics that childhood was so much more interesting and special to him than adulthood.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Everything was right.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Right. And perhaps it plays out a bit in this song that the adults aren't worthy of serious consideration, but the kids are very clever.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. I think at some point I had that thought in my head. But overall, like a lot of things, unless something is blatantly explicitly meant to convey a personal message, I think as much as anything, he likes the sound of the words and he likes. I'm gonna use this format to craft the song. It's like a thought experiment of doing something sort of nursery rhymey. So I don't think too hard about it. But I do know that Lennon definitely put a lot more thought and care into his words than your average songwriter, for sure. So nothing is necessarily accidental or sloppy with him.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, interesting. Okay. By the way, we just did a deep dive on my gold. So Crybaby Cry is my gold.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Really?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, yeah. You only rate it as a bronze. What's wrong with you?

[Gary Wenstrup]

Because there's so much other better stuff.

[Robert Rodriguez]

But, yeah, we'll see.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I can't say better. I cannot say better.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, it's all good. All right, cool. So I guess that leads to maybe My Silver. My silver is sexy Sadie. You know, as we all know, it was written in India. It's a reaction to the Maharishi. He was going to call it Maharishi and then George says, no, you better be careful. Legal issues. And I think it's George that came up with the title Sexy Sadie, which is pretty damn perfect, my understanding. Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It's unfortunate how much that dovetailed with the Manson family.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. The whole album. How it dovetails with the Manson family.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. Well, that they had a Sadie within their midst.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It's like, oh, shit. Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Well, speaking of, you know, there's so much anger in this song, it's brutal.

[Gary Wenstrup]

This is the thing that's funny to me, though. You're right that it was written in a burst of anger. But the production and presentation doesn't come off as angry to me in a way that other songs where, you know, Lennon is being angry. Like even how do youo Sleep? Even though it's sort of hobbled with that clubfoot rhythm, it seemed to have more bite in it. Or give me some truth that I think this does. It's almost like a head shaking rather than a finger pointing.

[Robert Rodriguez]

That's interesting you say that. And I'll agree in that he doesn't sing it with an edge in his voice.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Right.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Like he does the other songs that you named. But I think it's maybe veiled anger that comes through in this lyric. I just feel that it's no holds barred.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It's there lyrically for sure. What you're alluding to.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It's there in the lyrics. And maybe if you caught him on a day that was closer to the actual events, where it was still fresh, you might have gotten that edge. But this is months later, and now it's just one more track on this album. They're trying to shove out the door to fulfill their EMI contract. So the anger has diminished the immediacy of it. So now they're just trying to make the best production out of it they can. And they certainly do.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And they certainly do us. Right. So that's what I enjoy about it. The moodiness of it. It's just a moody. It's got, again, sort of that darker vibe that's, to me, part of the White Album in general.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And that's what's part of the attraction for me.

[Robert Rodriguez]

For the whole album or the song.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Certainly. Size three and four.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Certainly three and four, for sure.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And maybe that's, again, if I want to step away from. I really don't want to believe it's over familiarity. It makes me drawn more to three and four. I really do think it's the songs. And that would be one more reason for it, is that they do seem more moody and dark than the songs on side one and two.

[Robert Rodriguez]

So why does that appeal to you? Why does moody and dark appeal more to you than perhaps upbeat and melodic?

[Gary Wenstrup]

Because it's compelling and because those of a certain mind want to learn more rather than get the surface level enjoyment. Okay, we're done. Nothing to see when your curiosity is piqued by, wow, this seems kind of dark. I don't hear an edge in his voice, but he's certainly not being very flattering in the lyrics. I want to understand more. I want to get to the bottom of this. It just draws you in, at least for those of a certain mindset.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay, that certainly works for me. It does the same for me, too. The only other thing, my other observation is how wonderful how key the piano is to this song. To me, that's. I don't know, 70% of the song's appeal are the keyboards or keyboard which Paul plays.

[Gary Wenstrup]

There's organ on the track, too.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, yeah, with an organ. Right. The keyboards are a wonderful additional element and I'm going to give Paul the credit for that. As I was looking at this, research indicates that they did 52 takes of this song, which in for White Album is not a huge number necessarily, but the first 21 takes did not have a keyboard on it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Interesting.

[Robert Rodriguez]

It is interesting to me, and I wonder if Paul always knew he was going to add it at some point, but the song hadn't come together well enough for him to do that. Or if it's after hearing 30 takes that he decides, you know, I should dress this up with some keyboards or does John directly, and we'll never know. But the fact that they've done 30 takes before we get one of the key elements of the song, the keyboards, is really interesting to me, actually.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I think it's John on piano and Paul in Oregon.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. For what it's worth.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Great. I like that better. I like that better. Which does remind me, Paul and his keyboards. You know, his keyboard introduction to While My Guitar Gently Weeps. Oh, my gosh. That's one of my favorite elements of the song.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Oh, 100%. That Morse code tinkling on that staccato. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Robert Rodriguez]

It pulls the song out of the shadows and gets it going. I don't know. I can't think of a good analogy, but I love that keyboard part.

[Gary Wenstrup]

While we're on the subject of the piano on this song, which I believe to be John, is that moment after you'll get your jet. And then there's like that little staccato punctuation. Can you hear it?

[Robert Rodriguez]

No, I can't off the top of my head. Sorry.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Okay, it's there.

[Robert Rodriguez]

But why do you mention it?

[Gary Wenstrup]

Because it's the kind of thing that a guy that is thinking in terms. I think of the whole picture and not just. This is the set of chords I have to play for the verses and then here's the bridge and blah blah, blah. It's like you're thinking in terms of this little effect. Here is a nice little add on to the words I just sang.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I see.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It's like a follow on to it. So that's more reason for me to think that it's John playing it because it just seems like a spontaneous thing, not a scripted thing. Not that Paul's incapable, but I could see John doing that. And as we know from the lore that they couldn't get a handle on oh blah deal blah dah til John sat down goes. This is how it should be played.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. I love that you brought that up. Because John somehow ignites obla di obla da while Paul to my ears ignites while my guitar gently weeps. And Sexy Sadie, how great that they can contribute that way.

[Gary Wenstrup]

They're each other's best editors for sure.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, there you go. There you go.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Have you heard the Peter Sellers tape version of this where it's got the extended bridge to it? There's more to it. They pared it down for the final release.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I have not heard it. I'm not surprised. There's more, but I have not heard it. No.

[Gary Wenstrup]

To me, one of the most compelling parts. And this was not one of my three, but I'm glad I get to celebrate it. As you picked it is that last thing he does is like as it goes to the instrumental break part of the song where he does that sort of 50s doo wop ish high falsetto bit.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

That's. That's absolutely one of my favorite moments of him as a singer.

[Robert Rodriguez]

He does it a couple of times on this album. Right. He ends Sexy Sadie with it. He ends Happiness is a Warm Gun with it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Correct.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And there's another song that somebody, Paul or John ends in a falsetto. And it's a wonderful element. Totally agree with you. Love those falsetto moments that close the song. I'm glad you brought it up.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. To me it's like when I hear that. And again, detaching yourself from all the Beatle lore that your head is filled with, it sounded to me like Somebody purposely evoking a sort of 50s thing, you know, like they do the shooby doo wops on Revolution. It's like that little affectation that to me, they're going back to their youth when music was everything to them, that kind of music, and it just. Where their heart lies. And so he's literally singing his heart out on that song.

[Robert Rodriguez]

That's nice. That's nice. I do love the falsetto moments. Yep. I totally agree. All right, so I think Karma Police. What do you mean by that?

[Gary Wenstrup]

Do you know the song?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, sure. So you're just saying what goes around.

[Gary Wenstrup]

This song never reminded you of that song?

[Robert Rodriguez]

No, no, not at all.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Come on.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Sorry.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Come on.

[Robert Rodriguez]

No, no. Why?

[Gary Wenstrup]

The keyboard line.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay, okay. Didn't pick up on it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Well, pick it up. Next time you hear it, just listen. Do you say, God, Robert, you were right. How could I have been so stupid?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, boy. Let's not get carried away. All right, so I think you're up with your silver if I'm right.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Sure enough.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay, what you got?

[Gary Wenstrup]

So side three and four, just replete with great performances, great songs. We've talked a bit about Honey Pie going back on the Paul track here. Birthday. I love that. I'm not tired of that one yet. Helter Skelter, I've always enjoyed the hell out of again. Talk about a dark song. And it's got this unasked for baggage now attached to it, which it's a hard thing because I think once I became familiar with the song in the 70s, it was already branded because of the book. And it's unfortunate that there wasn't much of a window between that song's release and then what happened that people began to make that association. It's too bad. I think we've gotten this distance a bit past it, but maybe not 100%. It's a hard thing.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And maybe future generations won't have the association that we have. And that'll be for the song's betterment.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah, exactly. It can get the purity restored to it, but to me, it's a fun track. It's a fun performance. So anyway, to land on a Paul song, not because I'm trying to make that my criteria, but one of the ones that I always thought was an unsung and lovely performance. His Mother Nature's son.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay, so that's your silver.

[Gary Wenstrup]

That's my silver. And I've always liked this from the beginning when I first heard it. It goes in and out, not with favor with me, but with familiarity because it can be years going by. I don't listen to it all that frequently, and I don't think even on the Sirius XM channel does it get played a whole lot on the Beatles channel. At least not when I'm listening to it. So it's retained a freshness to me, and it seems heartfelt and sweet. And I love the fact this is independent of. Again, you can sort of enjoy things on a purely musical level, which I do. But then when there's lore you can attach to, May deepen and further your enjoyment. And that is the session tapes of. I think it's when they're doing Blackbird that obviously it's Paul running through the song. But you hear John up in the booth and I believe that's the one. It might be part of the same piece. He might be doing Mother Nature's Son there, too. But in my memory, this is me talking without looking into it. John's up there. And then he suggests maybe a touch of Nilson brass band. That's what I was thinking of the song.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I was thinking of the sound as being something which. A little bit of brass band, you know, a very nice little bit of brass band. Yes, that would be lovely. Yeah. A little bit of Nielsen's brass band.

[Gary Wenstrup]

And sure enough, Mother Nature's sun is where it surfaces.

[Robert Rodriguez]

You're right. That's my memory, too, that it was John that suggested the addition of horns.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yes. And it's a light touch. It's not overwhelming. It's subtle and perfect and. And really, it speaks volumes about. Later on, he would dismiss that. Paul's good at that sort of thing. So is John Denver. It's hard not to read that as a dis. Maybe he didn't mean that way, but it sounds like he did. But again, 1980 versus 1974 versus 1968, where he's actually submitting a productive, positive production suggestion that Paul ends up running with. And it's perfect for this all.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And I would argue that point. For me, it works better without the horns. Not that I've heard it without the horns, but to me it's a pastoral. You know, me in a field with my acoustic guitar, enjoying nature. And the horns, for me, take it somewhere else.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Really?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, honestly. And I just. I don't feel it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Well, they're not marching band horns.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I know, I know, but you're not gonna.

[Gary Wenstrup]

There is classical music called Pastoral you might have heard.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I'm sorry, it hurts. It's not ruins, but my image of Paul sort of in the wavy grass.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It Takes you out of it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

It takes me out of it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

What kind of grass do you think he meant?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, good point. But I think your wider point is John's fully engaged. He's trying to figure out what will enhance the song and he's making a suggestion. And the fact that we've still got that camaraderie and working together is lovely because we know there was a lot of tension during this album. So how refreshing to know it wasn't there every night.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Right? And then there's the odd production arrangement, touches like that he plays the intro, then that boom, boom, boom. It works. It's not like, oh God, I wish they would have edited that out. Maybe you come to accept it through your open mindedness when you're first hearing the song. I would never want it gone, but it makes me wonder, was that a happy accident? Was that by design? He heard it in his head and he just did it. And that's all he needed and doesn't return to it. It's just a cool little thing. I don't know where it came from, but I like it and I'm glad it's there.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Gotcha. And does that leave us with your gold, Robert?

[Gary Wenstrup]

What songs have we spoken of? Okay, yours, Honey Pie. Right.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Honey Pie, Crybaby Cry and Sexy Sadie.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Oh, wow. That's all three years?

[Robert Rodriguez]

That's all three of mine, yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I'll be damned. All right. Yeah, I guess we're at My Gold. So what's left that we haven't talked about?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, boy, it looks like you're gearing up for this one.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Well, just because I know in advance your disposition.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Go ahead, Robert.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Long, long, long is my gold.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay, I can't wait to hear why.

[Gary Wenstrup]

So there is, along with some of the other stuff we've described so far, an overt really upon first listening, spookiness to it. His voice has got that reverb on it and then you've got that wailing at the end, which certainly sounds like something odd to say the least to a song on a pop album. But it's got atmosphere, it's got exoticism. It's got a phenomenal drum performance from Ringo. Arrangement wise. I like how it just has these moments, these swells where he sings something and then it gets punctuated by boom, boom and stopping, starting. And then I didn't know till years later, maybe recording sessions, book. I'm not sure at what point I became aware it's Chris Thomas that played that piano part on it. And when I got to meet him and we talked about it. He said, yeah, I was going for Go now by the Moody Blues. And that's. Oh, now I can hear it. Wow, that's cool.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I didn't know that I have to go back and listen to it with those ears. Thanks for sharing that.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Sure. It's piano played in that sort of waltz rhythm. It makes sense once you know the comparisons, like, oh, yeah, now I see it, now I hear it. But I always liked it just as a component of the audio picture they're painting to me. The ending. It's cool, it's fine and everything, but it's like the least of it. It's an interesting little PS to the song, but my love of the song comes from everything that precedes it. It's not heavy handed in its spirituality the way he would be in the years to come.

[Robert Rodriguez]

It's certainly not. And I don't think I ever thought about the spirituality aspect of it until decades later. So I certainly didn't pick up on that. So I think the reasons you like it, I appreciate, but they just don't work for me. So I think there is a darkness to this song as well, which appeals to you, but it just. In this song, it doesn't appeal to me. It appeals to me in Sexy Sadie and Crybaby Cry. Why it doesn't appeal to me here, I don't have a good answer. It's eerie. I don't know. George just sounds exhausted to me. And those last 30 seconds, they sound like somebody dying. I feel like I'm witnessing a death. George's howl at the end sounds like the last howl before he dies.

[Gary Wenstrup]

A death rattle.

[Robert Rodriguez]

A death. It does. It does exactly.

[Gary Wenstrup]

The Blue Nun wine bottle on the Leslie speaker is a death rattle.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I know everybody loves to reference that. Well, it doesn't appeal to my ear. And the icky. I call it icky for lack of. Not a very worldly approach. But the organ to me just sounds icky. I don't like the sound of it, really.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Right out of the gate.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Right out of the gate. Don't care for it. Ringo's drum fills certainly brings some life to it. I agree with you. I do like the bridge where it sort of wakes up a bit. So many tears. I was a searching. I like that. That wakes me back up. I'm sorry. God, listen to me go on about it. I apologize. Go ahead, I'm rolling. And the other thing is there's just no imagery in the lyrics for me. Maybe there is for you. There's nothing to picture here. There's no broken wings or sunken eyes.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Or there's a callback to I need you.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay. I like that melody a lot better. And there's no icky organ in it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

That's what she said.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, my. Sorry. I fully respect your opinion and I think I'm in the minority. I think a lot of people think this is an incredible piece of work. It doesn't work for me.

[Gary Wenstrup]

That's fine. You're allowed. You're entitled. Tell me this. What do you think of the Living in the Material World album?

[Robert Rodriguez]

I love it. Yeah, I do. I hope we get to do this with Living in the Material World. Certainly there's some slow kind of boring parts, but overall I really enjoy it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

That's how most people would characterize that album in a lot of his post Beatles career, slow, boring parts.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I know, I know, I know. But it works for me because it doesn't remind me of death. I don't hear 30 seconds of someone dying with George's howl in the Blue Nun bottle at the end. So did you always know that there was a spiritual aspect to this as opposed to a romantic one?

[Gary Wenstrup]

No, but it always did sound a bit otherworldly to me.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And does that enhance the appeal of the song to you?

[Gary Wenstrup]

It made it compelling. Sure. I think if it were something all major, key, obvious, happy love song, I would have gotten bored with it a lot quicker.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Great.

[Gary Wenstrup]

I could say if Paul had written it. No, I won't say that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

What? I don't know where you're going. I don't know where you're going.

[Gary Wenstrup]

There's no depth to it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, dear.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. No, I'm not going to say that. I'm taking that part out. It's just a cheap joke.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I understand what you're saying, but you can make that case on this album that Paul in particular is just sort of genre hopping. He's just sort of jumping into a particular genre, executing it, and then jumping right out without a lot of heart and soul in it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Could you say that? A revolver?

[Robert Rodriguez]

No, I wouldn't. Would you?

[Gary Wenstrup]

That's not genre hopping.

[Robert Rodriguez]

No. Not when I hear Eleanor Rigby. Not when I hear for no one. To me, that feels like there's real emotion buried in there. I don't necessarily hear a lot of emotion in the songs that. That are on this album by Paul.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Really? Okay.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Well, Martha, my dear. Wonderful. But I don't hear emotion in it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

What about Mother Nature's Son?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Nice. I know I've overused the word pastoral. I think he's just trying to sort of check that box. And we know the Maharishi was big on enjoying nature, so I think he's just writing a song to capture that. I don't feel deep emotion in it. Blackbird, I do feel deep emotion in. So Blackbird would be the exception to my rule. Assuming my rule rule has any.

[Gary Wenstrup]

What about. I will.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, I hear emotion. I know a lot of people think it's a throwaway love song. I don't hear it that way. So. Yeah, maybe not every. All right, Robert. All right. Maybe not everything is a genre exercise. Okay, fine.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It's funny, I never really thought about Back in the USSR and Birthday being sort of connected as rock and roll pot boilers.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

But I guess they kind of are for sure. One, the Chuck Berry and the other. Whatever it is.

[Robert Rodriguez]

The other Little Richard song. Yeah, some Little Richard song.

[Gary Wenstrup]

It could be. Yeah. I mean, you got some piano on it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Gary Wenstrup]

That's a nice touch on Birthday. I love that piano through the Defender Twin with the reverb on it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

You love a lot of things in Birthday that I can't find, and we haven't talked about it, but another genre exercise that I think is brilliant is Rocky Raccoon. It's a great genre exercise.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah, we didn't really talk too much about that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, it works for me. Not dissimilar from Honey Pie. He sort of jumps into the country pool and he swims beautifully in it.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Yeah. There's not enough of what I find objectionable a country music in it to wreck it for me.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Wow. There's a lot to unpack in that statement. So you're just not a fan of country music, is that what you're saying?

[Gary Wenstrup]

Definitely not modern country music for sure, but. But to me, it's more country folk, which is kind of okay. Tells a story, which is. Well, I guess country music does too. I don't know. It just depends on the song. Depends on the artist, depends on the time.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I'm guessing Beaucous of Blues is not a favorite of yours, then.

[Gary Wenstrup]

No, that one kind of works because he's got the voice for it. And you talk about authenticity. It sounds like he is quite at home. Case by case basis with the songs. I like the title track.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. It doesn't do it for me. I find the songs boring. I don't have any issues with country. I just don't find that the songs particularly interesting. But maybe we'll get to that at some point. We'll do a. An Olympiad on bokuza blues. I think that'll be a brief episode.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Coochie coochie.

[Robert Rodriguez]

This is WABC FM Babalu here and.

[Gary Wenstrup]

We have the Beatles tape ready to.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Rebroadcast for you now. Okay. New Beatle album. We think it's called the Beatles. We don't know. Fidelity is not out of sight on.

[Gary Wenstrup]

This, but I think the music is.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Excellent, at least in many parts.

[Gary Wenstrup]

You make your own decision about that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I will have to cut in on the cuts occasionally in order to protect our sister station.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Same thing we went through before, right?

[Robert Rodriguez]

And we will be cutting our stereo.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Beacon because this is in monophonic low fidelity and therefore it becomes necessary to so do to live up to FCC regulations. Are you ready?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Stereo beacon go off. Click click.

[Gary Wenstrup]

How does that feel?

[Robert Rodriguez]

All right, here we go. In glorious monophonic sound, here are the Beatles.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Something about the Beatles created and hosted by Robert Rodriguez, executive producer Rick Way, Title song performed by the Corgis Something about the Beatles is an evergreen podcast cast you I'm just content here to be here till 6 o'clock playing the goodies from the 1260 survey for you.

[Robert Rodriguez]

How you doing?

[Gary Wenstrup]

It's big fat Chris Edwards till 6:00 tonight where it's 1203 right now at Kya San Francisco.

[Robert Rodriguez]

You have a mind to take a good licking rules for work if you.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Can be counted out in the here.

[Robert Rodriguez]

The 30 new creations on two LPs in one album and the center spread poster of the Beatles. The album is called the Beatles. There's nothing else this year. The Beatles here now on Capital's double record album and on double cartridge tape so you can turn your car on too. Take this brother. May it serve you well.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Look for the Beatles new album from Capitol Records. It's your favorite record store right now from the album here's my old buddy.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Rocky Raccoon one time now somewhere in the Black Mining Hills off Dakota. There live the the Helping Friendly podcast explores the music and fan experience of Phish through interviews and deep dives on shows and tours. For more than 10 years, we've created insightful and fun discussions about our favorite band. And with the help of our guests and thematic series, we're still discovering new angles of appreciation for fish. And when the band is on tour, we provide a review of every show the following day. As one of our listeners said, any Fish fans that enjoy meandering conversations and incredible insight on new and old fish shows? This is for you. Highly recommend. It's not just about the band and the shows, it's about the journey getting there throughout 2024 we're going to be running down the top 25 fish tours of all time, and that'll be interspersed with show reviews and regular episodes. Join us and check out the Helping Friendly podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Hi, I'm Christina Yerling Biro, host of the podcast Pop Culture Confidential. Join me as I go way behind the scenes with some of the most influential people in entertainment and media.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Hear actors such as Succession's Brian Cox.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Talk about his favorite characters to play.

[Robert Rodriguez]

There always has to be a mystery. The audience have to be in a.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Situation where they want to know what's going on. Meet studio execs like Pixar chief Pete Docter and learn his secret on how he makes us cry.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Emotion is our first language, and so.

[Gary Wenstrup]

Many others who are defining popular culture, from Obama speech writer David David Litt to Top Chef host Padma Lakshmi. We don't often think about food politically or we don't want to, but it really is. Join me Search for Pop Culture Confidential wherever you get your podcasts.