298: May the Second - The Found Weekend with May Pang

Summary

Episode 298: May the Second - The Found Weekend with May Pang

Release Date: December 24, 2024

Introduction

In Episode 298 of Something About the Beatles, hosted by Robert Rodriguez of Evergreen Podcasts, listeners are treated to an in-depth and intimate conversation with May Pang, John Lennon's long-time partner during his "Lost Weekend" period. This episode delves into personal anecdotes, professional collaborations, and the intricate dynamics of John Lennon's life post-Beatles. The dialogue offers a rare glimpse into the behind-the-scenes moments that shaped the latter part of Lennon's career and personal life.

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Milestone Reflections and Audience Engagement

Robert Rodriguez begins by acknowledging the approaching milestone of the 300th episode, reflecting on the podcast's ad-hoc numbering system and encouraging listeners to contribute their favorite moments and standout conversations from past episodes. He emphasizes the importance of listener involvement in commemorating this achievement.

“It's a milestone. It is something I wanted to commemorate... handing the mic over to you, as it were.”
— Robert Rodriguez, [04:30]

May Pang's Current Endeavors

May Pang discusses her ongoing projects, including a touring photo exhibition across the United States and a significant trip to England earlier in the summer. She hints at a third visit slated for the new year and mentions her forthcoming book, set to release after the first of the year, possibly accompanied by a launch event.

“The book is coming that will be out after the first of the year... probably have some kind of book launch event as well.”
— Robert Rodriguez, [03:10]

Sponsorship and Episode Launch

The episode is sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy, marking their return as sponsors. Rodriguez extends seasonal greetings before transitioning into the main content featuring May Pang.

“Something about the Beatles is sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy... We will be glad to have them back.”
— Robert Rodriguez, [04:50]

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Main Conversation with May Pang

Thanksgiving and Reflections on the Past

The conversation shifts to Thanksgiving, coinciding with the 50th anniversary of the Elton Show, where May Pang shares memories of John Lennon reflecting on past events.

“Thanksgiving this year coincided with the 50th of the Elton Show... It was like, brought to my attention somehow.”
— May Pang, [06:27]

John Lennon nostalgically recalls his life during that era, emphasizing the authenticity of their experiences and the common misconception that they were merely name-dropping.

“We live in such a world where we can't wait to just chastise somebody for whatever it might be.”
— John Lennon, [07:22]

John Lennon's Communication Style and Social Media

May Pang highlights John Lennon's knack for succinct communication, noting how his ability to convey profound messages in few words made him a natural for today's social media landscape.

“He can convey a message to all of us in five words or less... He was wired for Twitter.”
— May Pang, [08:35]

John Lennon concurs, reflecting on how his concise style would have thrived on platforms like Twitter, despite occasional misinterpretations of his statements.

“He's done. You know what he's looking for? That's a gift... He looked for democracy.”
— John Lennon, [09:02]

May Pang's Artistic and Professional Journey

May Pang discusses her photo exhibitions and interactions with notable figures like Chris O'Dell and Ken Womack in Liverpool. She shares heartfelt moments, including receiving an award for her contributions to Liverpool's Beatles history and reconnecting with key individuals from that era.

“I thank John Keats and Billy Heckel for all of this... And I saw Joan, who was Ringo's executive secretary...”
— May Pang, [12:00]

Apple and APCO Experiences

The dialogue delves into May Pang's tenure at APCO, working closely with John Lennon amidst the tumultuous Apple Records environment. She recounts memorable encounters with Barry Klein and the complexities of corporate dynamics during that period.

“It was hectic because they had just acquired Apple... Harold was a no nonsense guy.”
— John Lennon, [22:00]

Interactions with Fellow Artists

May Pang and John Lennon reminisce about interactions with fellow musicians, including Ringo Starr's brief appearance, Ringo's anecdotes about Badfinger, and lively exchanges with guests like Mick Jagger and Eric Clapton.

“And then, of course, George came in... That year, 1970, was a big year for it to start happening.”
— John Lennon, [27:00]

Creative Processes and Album Insights

Discussion centers on the creation of John Lennon's albums, particularly "Mind Games" and "Walls and Bridges." May Pang provides insights into the production nuances, Lennon's artistic decisions, and the challenges faced during album releases.

“When he did that record and why he was so proud of it... And he was on budget, and the album was $60,000.”
— John Lennon, [75:50]

Collaborations and Musical Legacy

The conversation explores John Lennon's collaborative spirit, touching upon his potential reunions with Paul McCartney, interactions with Elton John, and the lasting impact of his musical endeavors. May Pang underscores Lennon's dedication to crafting timeless music and his reluctance to let external narratives distort his legacy.

“He always wanted to do Only you... Another song that he loved was Fontella Bass Rescue Me.”
— John Lennon, [85:00]

Challenges and Misconceptions

May Pang addresses common misconceptions and inaccuracies found in memoirs and media portrayals of John Lennon. She emphasizes her role as a reliable source of firsthand accounts, contrasting them with embellished or fictionalized narratives.

“But I wouldn't call that John's stuff at all... I'm fighting a machine constantly.”
— John Lennon, [57:27]

Final Reflections and Future Prospects

As the episode nears its conclusion, May Pang hints at future discussions and potential follow-up episodes to further explore unresolved topics. John Lennon expresses his commitment to preserving authentic memories and resisting misrepresentations of his life and work.

“I try very hard because almost everything that people have come to me for different things, they've come to me because I'm the only one holding on to it.”
— John Lennon, [100:19]

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Notable Quotes

• May Pang at [08:35]:
  “He spoke in headlines.”

• John Lennon at [09:02]:
  “He looked for democracy. That's his main thing.”

• John Lennon at [22:00]:
  “Harold was a no nonsense guy. John loved him.”

• John Lennon at [75:50]:
  “He knew what he wanted, he knew the sounds he wanted... He was so proud of that album.”

• John Lennon at [100:19]:
  “I'm the only one holding on to it. I'm the only one with the memory.”

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Conclusion

Episode 298 offers a profound exploration of John Lennon's life post-Beatles through the lens of May Pang's experiences. The candid conversations reveal the complexities of Lennon's personal and professional relationships, his artistic evolution, and the enduring legacy he left behind. Listeners gain valuable insights into the man behind the legend, underscoring the podcast's commitment to intelligent and entertaining examinations of The Beatles' music and career.

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Stay Connected

Don't miss out on upcoming episodes as Something About the Beatles continues to celebrate the Fab Four with more insightful interviews and behind-the-scenes stories. Subscribe to the SATB newsletter at [e-mail] for access to past newsletters and exclusive content.

Transcript

[May Pang]

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[John Lennon]

Imagine what's possible when Learning doesn't get in the way of life at Capella University. Our game changing flexpath learning format lets you set your own deadline so you can learn at a time and pace that works for you. It's an education you can tailor to your schedule. That means you don't have to put.

[May Pang]

Your life on hold to pursue your professional goals.

[John Lennon]

Instead, enjoy learning your way and earn.

[May Pang]

Your degree without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu hello and welcome to episode 298 of Something about the Beatles podcast. As we get ever nearer the milestone of the 300 show, which I guess, truth be told, the numbering system was kind of funky through the episodes. Some were labeled Part A, B and C, others that were the same conversation were broken into two parts, got different numbers. It's all ad hoc and made up as we go along. And I may in Fact have had 300 episodes under my belt a while ago. Who the hell knows. But it is a milestone. It is something I wanted to commemorate and as I have said through the SATB newsletter I've been sending out and thank you all who continue to sign up. Every one of you has expressed your gratitude. Well, not everyone, but everyone's written to me subsequent to getting a newsletter is grateful they did and they know why. And you'll know why too if you sign up satb2010mail to get on the newsletter and you can get the past newsletters as well, which most everyone wants to do. But in any event, 300th episode I had put it out there and I'm putting it out to you guys now that it would be a really cool thing to make the 300th episode about you. Your input specifically, what are your favorite sappy moments. What are our conversations with the tons of guests we've had that really stand out to you, that you really enjoy to something special? I've gotten a few responses already. I would like a lot more and to further involve you guys directly. What would be nice is that there's a million ways people can record themselves now through their smartphones. Create that audio file, dictate into it and I will use everything that's sent in the show. If you've got anything specific, it's better than typing it out. Just send me your thoughts on the show. Send me anything specific that stands out that you really enjoyed, anything like that and we will weave it into the show. I would really enjoy doing that, handing the mic over to you, as it were. So start thinking about that because the 300th will be upon us really soon. In fact, 299 is in the can and that'll be airing early 2025. So think about that. Get moving on it. Anyway, the book is coming that will be out after the first of the year. We'll talk about that further down the road and probably have some kind of book launch event as well. But here's May taking a break from this lengthy touring photo exhibition she's been doing in galleries throughout the States. And she also made a trip to England this summer, which we mentioned in the show. She will be coming back because this conversation ended up breaking the three hour barrier. But not all of it was for public consumption. I mean, we spent a half hour talking about food at one point and other stuff that's maybe not suitable for indiscriminate dissemination, to put it one way. Nonetheless, it's a great conversation. She is a great conversationalist and I really enjoy having her on the show. There is a promised third visit coming in the new year, so you've got that to look forward to. Anyway, I will get out of the way. Happy holidays to everybody celebrating. And here we go with 298. Something about the Beatles is sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy. They're returning as sponsors to the show, so we are glad to have them back. Thank you all for listening in 2024. Lots of great stuff to come. Here we go with May Thang.

[John Lennon]

Serious Thanksgiving and Thanksgivings are joyous occasions. We thought we'd make tonight a little bit of a joyous occasion by inviting someone up with us on the stage, John Lennon. And I'm sure it will be no stranger to anybody in the audience when.

[Ringo Starr]

I say it's our great privilege and.

[John Lennon]

Your great privilege to see and hear Mr. John Len.

[May Pang]

Thanksgiving this year coincided with the 50th of the Elton Show.

[John Lennon]

Yeah, it's so amazing. And it was on the Thursday.

[May Pang]

Yeah.

[John Lennon]

The Same day that 50 years. It was like, brought to my attention somehow. I forgot I saw a thing and I went, oh, my God, it's 50 years ago. And I just remember it so well. It was an amazing, amazing day. Looking back, every day, you know, people say to me, do you know, did you not think that it was going to be so amazing? And I would go, no, because every day was like this for me. I remember someone saying, oh, well, she talks about our Mick and Bowie. Well, who else was coming to our house? Who else was I living with? You know, these are his friends. Not that name dropping is not something I was thinking about. But those are the only people that would come around.

[Ringo Starr]

And that's reality.

[John Lennon]

That is reality. But people have a tendency to forget. We live in such a world where we can't wait to just chastise somebody for whatever it might be.

[May Pang]

Oh, my God, yes.

[John Lennon]

In my world, I just sort of see when. During this election, it was just such a tough election and I know where John would have voted. People said, how would you know? I said, we used to sit and talk about it. I know what he's like, what he was looking for. He looked for democracy. That's his main thing. And I said, it was a lot of different things. We used to sit and he used to sit with his lawyer. Can you tell me why this can't happen? Why the war can't stop here? You know, he was so curious about things all the time. And one thing about John that a lot of people don't realize, he can convey a message to all of us in five words or less. If you think about the titles of.

[May Pang]

His songs, he spoke in headlines.

[John Lennon]

Yeah, they're done. You know what he's looking for? That's a gift. Me, I'm like, takes me a paragraph to get to the one I did and I'm looking for.

[May Pang]

Well, you're reminded of that when. I don't know. I'm gonna ask you, did you watch Beatles 64?

[John Lennon]

No, not yet.

[May Pang]

Okay. It's not just the Maisel's Brothers footage, but they bring in things for context from other interviews, necessarily, and have got the tomorrow Tom Snyder interview in there as well. And there's a beautiful money quote from John in there. I'm not going to spoil it for you, but exactly what you're talking about. Exactly. Like summing up in one Sentence, something nuanced and complex, and there it all is. Boom. And Ray Connolly has pointed this out, too, that John learned to read, I guess, on the knee of his Uncle George, reading newspapers with him. It's like that mentality of summing it all up and speaking in headlines is something that never left him. And then he applied it to music as well.

[John Lennon]

Absolutely. Then it took some time for people to get what I was saying. I said, if you think about it, look at his titles. He's got it all down. He could say it so succinctly. And it's taken me that paragraph to get to that one line.

[May Pang]

He was wired for Twitter.

[John Lennon]

Yes, he was. That's why it's funny. People have said to me, and when I'm on the road, they said, we need a John right now because he could just say it to you. And I said, yeah, right. They were very much into, hey, we don't like segregation. You can't write. So I know that they wouldn't play in certain places. That's the way you are. They would take John's words out of context all the time. The one that came, obviously, that came out, that was famous, was, we're bigger than God. But that's not what he meant.

[May Pang]

Right. He wasn't boasting.

[John Lennon]

Yeah. We all rather go see them perform than to go to church and sit down and listen to a priest dole out. I know what that was like. I would rather go see them perform, too.

[May Pang]

Sure. Well, it's led to a lot of talk, just like you're saying, where's our John Lennon? Now? How he would have fared on social media, because his thoughts came so quick and he would sum something up so fast and then spit out a reaction to it. Sometimes he'd do a 180 on that stuff, sometimes within the same conversation. But it would have been fascinating because virtually everything out of his mouth was food for thought.

[John Lennon]

Absolutely. And the fact that he's contradicting himself on certain things, it's because each day we change our mind. One day you may, like Brussels sprouts, the next day you say, I hate that stuff. We're allowed to change. And that's what he was looking at. We're learning. And he was learning. I read the thing. Oh, he beat up his woman. Yeah. But once he learned that that was not a good thing because he grew up in that time, that that's the way men were taught. And as he grew out of it and he started understanding things, he then, okay, it doesn't change. Overnight I never would say, oh, he could change right then and there. He doesn't. But he was working towards making himself a better person which a lot of people don't allow you to do and that's what I've noticed, that people don't allow you to make those changes But I used to do that. It doesn't matter. That's what you used to do and that's what they stuck on and it's sad.

[May Pang]

One of the things I wanted to ask you, you've been doing this now since the doc came out and your photo gallery tour going all over the place, including to England. What's the response been like to the film and to your gallery tour and has there been any surprising stuff along the way?

[John Lennon]

One I have only done really the exhibition on my photos within the United States because it's a whole complicated thing once you leave the country.

[May Pang]

Oh, is that right? Okay.

[John Lennon]

Right. But I was in Liverpool this year and it was great I hadn't been there since prior to the pandemic so it was making me, you know, you get that anxiety feeling as you're trying to leave the country. Right. And I miss Liverpool I love the people of Liverpool and my friends there, Frieda Gordon and Vera Brown and, you know, so there's a bunch of people and the Cavern, they were fantastic. I was the main guest alongside Chris O'Dell came along and Ken Womack and it was a group of our American and a lot of American friends that I had came over as well I was given an award this year and I was so shocked. I was crying I was really in tears because it was so. I was so honored to be from my contribution to Liverpool and all that Beatle time there. Yeah, it was a beautiful. I've got a. I'm trying to make room now to put it up on my shelf. It's really gorgeous, A beautiful little glass thing and I thank John Keats and Billy Heckel for all of this and then of course I went down to London I spent time and I had a meal with Joe Johns, who was Neil Aspinall's right arm back in the day.

[May Pang]

Wow.

[John Lennon]

And I also saw Joan, who was Ringo's executive secretary at the time and she's the woman when John died. She called and I said. I picked up the phone and they said, give me the number to the hospital. And I told her, I said, you're too late. And she screamed into the phone like, what's wrong with your bloody country? I never spoke to her again until I saw her and that's 40 some odd years ago. So saw them for lunch and it was great. And of course it was lovely because Joe turns around to me and says, well, you know, Neil and John were very close, of course. I said, of course, I knew that. And he said, well, John was very happy with you. And I just sort of gave her a look. Like what? Across the table. What? I didn't. He goes, yeah, he turned around. He told that to Neil. Neil mentioned it to me. Wow, it's nice to hear. Even 50 years later, here it is, you know.

[May Pang]

Sure, absolutely.

[John Lennon]

Yeah. And I had no idea. So all these little messages that I get in between, I just started to laugh and I said, well, I guess it's nice to know even 50 years on.

[May Pang]

And you saw Tony King.

[John Lennon]

I saw Tony King and Michael Hewitson. Now, Michael was Elton's dresser and assistant back then. And Tony King, who hadn't seen in a while as well. God, you know, Time Goes By.

[May Pang]

Had you read his book?

[John Lennon]

I had it. I did not read completely all his books. You know, when I'm on the road, the last thing I want to do is read personally. It's not that I don't want to, but I get tired and because of my own eyesight, I'm limited in my reading.

[May Pang]

Did you hear the conversation with him that I had?

[John Lennon]

No. Please send it to me.

[May Pang]

Because you came up. Of course. Did you get a sense of his being different when he was with Yoko versus when he wasn't with Yoko?

[John Lennon]

Yes, to be honest with you, he was much more fun loving when he was with me. And it was very. It was looser. It was with Yoko. It was more serious, more cerebral, if you like. She held a fascination for him that was without a doubt. And when I got to know her and I got to talk to her, I kind of got it. I thought, yeah, I can see what it is. But he had a lot of fun with May and May was very good for him. May helped him through a very difficult time and she was a very nice person to work with. I only have good things to say about her. She was a lovely person to work with. She was very positive. And John had a lot of fun with her, but sad to say, for May as well, because I love May and she and John had a really nice special relationship too. But I just think Yoko held a great fascination for him. Sometimes, you know, it's like I tell Scott, he goes, there was an interview of you. I said, how was it? Because they come in and I'm like, he Reads it more than I would. Because to me, it's like, I've said this before, you know, So I don't. I don't listen as often as I should.

[May Pang]

Right.

[John Lennon]

People probably think if I said to them that I listen to all my interviews, they probably think I'm so full of myself. You know, it's one or the other.

[May Pang]

No, absolutely. You do this stuff all the time. You've been talking probably now more than you have in your life about absolutely. All the stuff in support of the doc and the photo of it. So, yeah, absolutely.

[John Lennon]

I've done so many and they're our favorites. So I always tell people, if there's something, just send it. Let me know personally. So I know that. Which I'm glad, because you'll send it to me and I'll definitely. It was great to see Tony. When we were sitting there, we just had a good little reminiscing and he said something and I said, no, it's not this date. He thought it was 73. I said, no, it's 74. And then he finally said, oh, okay, it was 74. All right. Obviously I'm better at the dates of knowing where I am.

[May Pang]

Well, that was part of your responsibilities. You were the one running the show.

[John Lennon]

Oh, you're right. And I knew that. But he was so insistent at first when we were talking about. And this was going for the K Sand, the Tom Donahue thing. And he kept saying, oh, no, it's 73. We were. And we were doing Mind Games. He said, no, we were doing Walls and Bridges. And this is 74. Because we only went to San Francisco in 74.

[Ringo Starr]

This is Tom Donahue. I'm going to do it till midnight tonight. John Lennon is our guest and we're playing cuts from his new lp.

[John Lennon]

And it's.

[Ringo Starr]

It's all right. Walls and Bridges. That's right. That's right.

[John Lennon]

I know.

[Ringo Starr]

Jealous about that.

[May Pang]

I'm.

[Ringo Starr]

Boys.

[John Lennon]

Cheers.

[Ringo Starr]

And why people call an album what they call it? Oh, yeah, well, normally I don't. I try not to think about the title until the end, you know.

[John Lennon]

Yeah.

[Ringo Starr]

And as usual, I didn't. I didn't have a title and I'd heard. I think I had it on a public service announcement. You know, one of those brotherhood or late night stuff, you know, when they make you miserable in between the movies. It just. I just heard somebody flash something about Walls and Bridges and it stayed with me. And I almost called Number nine Dream Walls and Bridges, but it didn't make sense. It was one of those I like the title. I kept trying to fit it into something. I figured that it's never legitimate to ask a songwriter what a song means, but a title is a little different. Yeah, but it was. I like the thing, you know, walls and bridges. Like walls you bump into or they close you in, and bridges you go across or something like that. And it was just putting it somewhere. Putting it somewhere. There we go, right? Putting it to him. So I finally put it on the album. Nothing else came. You know, I stick with the title until something Better comes. And it seemed. And as the album finished, it seemed to be like, you know, without any thought what it was about. Some kind of communication problems, you know, so it fitted. You remember what we set up Nice from now. Oh, what you got.

[John Lennon]

That's how much stuff we had been doing, John and I, that you start to forget. What year did we do this? When did we go? You know? And it's like one runs into the other. There's a picture of John in his sweater, and I call it A walk in the Wilderness. And we were up in Ellenville and he just needed a break. He said, I just need, like three or four days. I just want to be away. Because we'd been on the move, we'd just been nonstop without a break. And I like to just have a moment just in the quiet. So we went up and my friend had a place up in Ellenville near Woodstock, and we just had a good time just relaxing for three or four days without anything.

[May Pang]

That was when that photo was taken of him in the sweater you're describing. I think that was used for the UK Imagine sleeve.

[John Lennon]

Yeah. Isn't that amazing? Because he asked me for it. He said, that's the one picture I want to use. I said, oh, of course. I said, of course I'll let you have it. And then not only that, I probably have the only father and son, because I got Julian's for Jude.

[May Pang]

Awesome.

[John Lennon]

Yeah, I know. So a father and son. I got an album and I got a single sleeve. So that's good. Yeah.

[May Pang]

With the distance now from the release of the film, is there more stuff that you wish had been in it? Was there more that you wanted to say that didn't get included into the film? If you had a perfect world where you could dictate. I would like to add this to the statement that's made, because more people will see that than probably will hear this interview.

[John Lennon]

Probably. And I guess there are more things. But you know what? When you only have 90 minutes, it's kind of hard because you're talking about almost a lifetime. In the time that I was with John, it was so packed that we just couldn't get everything in. And to show the visuals to go along with everything instead of just talking, like here on this interview, people can see it. You'll miss it, but you got to show something that almost corroborates whatever you're saying. And we were looking for different things, but again, by the time we finished, we had two and a half hours. And then the time was now to cut it down was just difficult. Just as equally so. Yeah, I'm sure somewhere there'll be maybe a part two.

[May Pang]

Oh, that would be nice. That'd be fabulous. I would love to see that happen. That'd be great.

[John Lennon]

Thanks.

[May Pang]

You started working with them at the end of 70 was when you'd already been working for ABCO Alan Klein.

[John Lennon]

Right. I started in 1969.

[May Pang]

Tell us a little about that. What was it like working with Klein and the Apple artists? That's something I don't think it's talked about a lot. What was it like as a boss? Were you comfortable there? Was it exciting work? What was it like?

[John Lennon]

It was hectic because they had just acquired Apple. He was the manager. So it was hectic. I was in the royalties department doing royalty statements and stuff at first, but there was such a changeover in people around in the area. We were just administrative at the moment. For the first few months. We just moved into 1700 Broadway. They were putting in new furniture. I hadn't even seen Klein yet. He didn't come in for a few months. And he was busy on the road, whatever he was doing. All I remember was the first time that I heard he was in the office. I was sitting at my desk and behind me was this office, and it was the office of the general counsel. And the guy was named Harold Seider. He later became John's personal lawyer. What happened was I'm sitting there and I hear this rumbling. I hear this guy going, but, Harold, I just want you to see him for five minutes. And I hear him, get out. Get out of my office. And I'm like, oh, my God, this is weird. And it's behind me. I'm not turning my head. I'm. Now I can't turn around. And he slams the door. And there's Klein standing there. I just happen to catch him. So he opens the door and I hear from the office, didn't anybody tell you you have to knock before you walk in? So Klein closes the door, he knocks and he opens the door and I hear him going, get out. I told you to get out. And it was like, oh, my God. And my thought was, how does this work? How does the president of the company, which is Klein, is being thrown out by the vice president of the company.

[May Pang]

I was wondering that myself, you know.

[John Lennon]

And I'm thinking, okay, but you know what? Harold had a lot of power because he kept the company in a straight form. Klein relied on him a lot at that time. But Harold was a no nonsense guy. John loved him. John loved him. Would love to always sit down, talk to him. Had a great time. If he had a problem or whatever, he would have a question. Harold, tell me this, explain this to me. So Harold was the guy. And Harold actually left the Klein organization about a year or two after I was there. So it was quite interesting. And he went off. And when later on, a few years later, when the boys sued Klein, John was smart enough, he goes, who would understand Klein and his head thinking? And he goes, harold, where is he? Where is he in this world? And they sought him out and they found out where he was and they went to see him and to ask him if he would be their private personal lawyer. And that's how it started. And for months, Klein never knew who John's lawyer, because what Harold did was he also hired a legal firm. Even though it was spearheaded by Harold. Privately, he was the boss over that firm, but he chose the firm for them. So he never knew until later that Harold was their lawyer.

[May Pang]

Was there bad blood between Harold and Klein by that time?

[John Lennon]

It wasn't bad blood per se, but it was. They didn't talk. And many years later, I ran into Klein and he said to me, I know you see Harold. He goes, I would love to see him, just love to see him. I said, because they had a friendship from way back when, you know. And so he was like saying, I would love to see him. But they never got a chance to get it together. So it was sad. I mean, Klein died and, you know, at one point, you know, he had Alzheimer and the whole thing. So it never happened. Although Klein himself said to me, if you see him, please, I'd like to hear from him.

[May Pang]

Interesting. Wow.

[John Lennon]

Yeah.

[May Pang]

So you would have been around, I would imagine, when Badfinger came.

[John Lennon]

Okay, so in 1970, because I arrived in 1969, here's the first one. I'm there two weeks. All the girls had to relieve the receptionist when she needed somebody. So it was my turn. I'm sitting there and the phone rings and I'M answering the switchboard and it's a DJ from Detroit. And they said, we're calling because there's a rumor that Paul is dead. And I went, what are you talking about? He goes, you haven't heard that rumor? I said, no. So now I'm trying to get somebody on the inside to take the call. No one would take the call. And they said, you deal with it. So the DJ only spoke to me and I refused to let him use my name or anything. I said, no, you can't use it. I'm thinking, I don't want to be fired as soon as I got this job already, right. And then when I heard about him, I read the articles about, oh, they spoke to someone at Apple this who said they'd never heard about the rumors. And I realized they were speaking to me. That's what happened. Wow.

[May Pang]

Okay.

[John Lennon]

So, yeah, I know these little things start to happen. So that was in 1969. So in 1970, the first beetle to even walk through just on his way to something was Ringo. He came in, I remember seeing him for a brief second. And then after that, different bands started to come and Badfinger was the first. Meet Tom Evans of Badfinger, the group.

[Ringo Starr]

In the top 10 with the soundtrack song Come and Get It.

[John Lennon]

Tom, tell us how your group came.

[Ringo Starr]

To be chosen to do the music for the film the Magic Christian. Yes, we had a record out a year before Come and Get it called maybe Tomorrow.

[John Lennon]

But that was before you were known as Badfinger, wasn't it?

[Ringo Starr]

Yeah, we were called the Ivies then and everybody said it would a hit, you know, and it was a commercial sounding thing, but it didn't go, you know, it's sold in the States, but not very, you know. Yeah, enough to make it a major hit there. But during this time, Paul knew that he could aid us by this film because he was asked to write the music for the film and he got to writing the title song. And I thought maybe if we could do the title song, knowing that we were writers, there's a chance he could get us in the film as songwriters.

[John Lennon]

Yeah. Did it work?

[Ringo Starr]

So, yeah, it. They like our version of Come and Get it, you know, so they give us this discotheque sequence, one which we wrote a rock and roll song for. And that one came off as well. So really it became a major thing.

[John Lennon]

For you, this film, didn't.

[Ringo Starr]

It got right into it and all.

[John Lennon]

The material was on your latest album. Yeah, it was exciting. And even Jackie Lomax came into town. We started seeing all the Activities, you know, John Koch came in, the graphic designer. Then we had graphic designer Jeffrey Michaelson in New York. We had different people coming in and out. And then, of course, George came in. That year, 1970, was a big year for it to start happening. So everything was working. It was just moving along. I mean, Badfinger was like, there's a group coming in, you know, and they were fun. They didn't know what to make of anything. It's like their first trip over, Right.

[May Pang]

There's an interview with Tommy Evans where he talked about he had a fear of being shot in America because they'd seen Easy Rider and they thought with their long hair, they were going to be a target.

[John Lennon]

It was quite insane. I mean, they were nervous and then finally they got over it. But they were, at the time in New York. There were several different hotels in the area where we were where every band was coming through at the same time. It was kind of wild. And you would go to this place, and I'm trying to now can't remember the name of it, but it was like this little bar, restaurant, you know, it was a pub again. It's a pub. It was an English pub. And everybody walk in. I remembered walking in with them to have a meal. And you walk in, and one side there was Rod Stewart and other side was Eric Clapton. Everybody was just coming in to get ready for their tour and they were all having a meal at this place. I said, this is weird. They're all sitting around just getting themselves ready.

[May Pang]

Did you ever see James Taylor when he was still at Apple?

[John Lennon]

No. By that point he had already gone to Warner's. Okay, yeah. Chris O'Dell can tell you all about that because that happened more in England for James.

[May Pang]

Had you ever been to the Apple office in London?

[John Lennon]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[May Pang]

Oh, okay. I didn't know it was part of your job.

[John Lennon]

Yeah, I went there because I wanted to go. And then I went there because. For work. So I did. It was. First was personal, then I went there for work.

[May Pang]

When you say personal, was that before you worked for apco?

[John Lennon]

No, that was because I wasn't sent there on an official business. I went there because I got friendly with some of the girls in the office and I was coming over and they were showing me around and all that stuff.

[May Pang]

Oh, cool.

[John Lennon]

And then I would come back later and I was there officially working and doing things. So I would be in the office then.

[May Pang]

Now, you, of course, had no frame of reference to how a record label worked or anything. So you're seeing all this and it's exciting and every day is amazing. So that was your normal. What an amazing thing.

[John Lennon]

Believe me, I love the English office of Apple. They had tea boys and tea girls. And I say that. And that's because they had people come in and they go, oh, would you like a cup of tea? Well, you get. They had a kitchen that's so English. So I kept saying, how civilized. We don't have this. You know, it was great. I met a couple of the original Apple scruffs. They were sitting on the steps and I got friendly. Oh, and there was another person I actually saw on this trip was the original Apple scarf, Margo Margo Stevens. So I hadn't seen her in God knows how long, 40, 50 years. And she goes, I remember she came over at that point she was working for Elton's company, and she came over for the Thanksgiving bit and Tony King and. And she says, I was so overwhelmed with what was happening around me. Wow, it was good fun to. To see her again. And then she remembers it well, and she goes, oh. She says, I remember when John was there and everybody was trying to drinks. And she goes, I know I never told you this. She goes, but he kept pushing it onto me and said, please, I don't want to go home with Mae drunk. He goes, can you just take it away? I just wanted to go home, that we could have a nice night out.

[May Pang]

As you're working for APCO and John is starting to become more part of your life, John and Yoko. Did you get a sense of how he was seeing his own work during the time, say, tracing Imagine through New York City through Mind Games? Did you get any sense of how satisfied he was with what he was putting out?

[John Lennon]

I think for the time, yeah, he was satisfied. I mean, they were doing amazing work. People forget they were so creative that they were the one. The first people that would hire film crew and really to their albums, you know, they were doing vignettes to each of the songs.

[May Pang]

Right. Video presentation. Before that was a thing.

[John Lennon]

Right, that. Before it was becoming MTV Video, they were doing this. I mean, the imagined film. It was film, it wasn't video. And I remember I was actually there for that one too. So people can't believe it that I was there when. When John is sitting at the piano and he's singing it and the whole thing.

[May Pang]

And at Tittenhurst.

[John Lennon]

Yeah, Titanhurst Park. Interesting place. I had no idea. In one week there were so many different things that we were doing, but a lot of that was filmed. Then when everybody says, oh, it was for the Imagine film. I always say, which version are we talking about? Because there's so many versions of it. The original ones came from them, then Andrew Salt at 1, then there was another version of Met when it's been cut up.

[May Pang]

Give me some truth. Yeah, yeah.

[John Lennon]

So everything is. Which one are you talking about? The original one was very interesting. I remember showcasing it in New York for people because they wanted people to see it. So that was around 72, the beginning of 72. And I and a couple of the guys, Tommy and Pete Ham, saw it because we did it at a little screening room and they came along. They were in town, so. Oh, wow.

[May Pang]

Yeah, I know that it's at the St. Regis Hotel in New York, that the scenes were filmed. You've got Jack Palance and Dick Cavett and Fred Astaire and George. How did all that come about? Was that just circumstance or circumstance? Yeah, okay. They happened to be there.

[John Lennon]

They happened to be there. It was funny. St. Regis is pretty famous. And I. I could tell you about the Fred Astaire one because John comes into the room and he goes, oh, you know who's in this hotel? And he goes, fred Astaire. Fred Astaire was my idol. So I was like, oh. Oh, my God. And I'm trying not to show it, you know, I was, like, trying to really hold it. He goes, I wonder if he'll come down. And I'm sitting there going, you know, thinking, oh, would I love to meet this man. Well, it turns out Peter was another guy who worked for them because they had a lot of assistance. So this guy came from England. He looked like a hippie. So Peter says, do you want me to go up and ask him to come down? He goes, not you. He goes, may you go up there and ask him? Well, he had no idea that I was like, oh, okay. I'm trying to be calm, and I'm now going to knock down the door of my idol. You know, here it is, you know, there Fred Astaire, sweet man, absolutely wonderful, impeccably dressed, like you would see him in the movies. And I told him what room we were in. And he said, well, you know, I'm getting ready to leave, to go home. And I said, okay. I kept saying, if you can, please, it would be great if you can. You know, I'm pleading with him. And he said, okay, let me see what I can do. And I was downstairs, and I remember coming in the door and John goes, well, I said. He said, he's going to call he's on his way out the door, you know, doing one of those. And he goes, the phone rings and I pick it up. I said, oh, Mr. Stair. Oh, hold on, hand him the phone. And John, Bing. John, you know, gets a well hello Fred, you know, that type of thing. And he goes, yeah, yeah. Understand? Yeah, yeah. Next thing you know he hangs up the phone and I'm like this, you know, and going well. And he goes, get the effing place cleaned up. He's coming downstairs, he's coming here. So all of us are like picking up, making sure the papers are not so disheveled all over the place. And he went in and changed. So John got into a suit and he happened to get into a blue suit matching what Fred Astaire was wearing almost. Only thing was John wasn't wearing any shoes or socks, you know, so it was just that. And Yoko went and changed and you see it in the, in the movie you see him. And that's what they changed into. Meanwhile John was in pair of very loungy pants and. And T shirts. So he changed into that and Jack Palance, same thing. George. It just happened that he was in town and he got invited over. I remember the first time he came over and John was showing him and Dylan the different guitars he had just bought.

[May Pang]

Oh, wow.

[John Lennon]

Yeah.

[May Pang]

Was that filmed?

[John Lennon]

No, because it was in the evening.

[May Pang]

Oh, too bad. Heard of that. Amazing.

[John Lennon]

I know, I know. Someone else said, you're kidding. I said, yeah, he was showing him because John had just bought a national. I'm just trying to remember there was like four guitars or something that was just laying out on the floor.

[May Pang]

Yeah, that guitar that he played with Zappa at the Fillmore.

[John Lennon]

Yeah, probably, yeah.

[May Pang]

I mean you see it in pictures. I'm not enough of a guitar hound to identify it. I know I've heard the name of it but it almost looked like a short scale sg. But yeah, there's that and there's the Gibson he played at the one to one show as well.

[John Lennon]

Yeah, he put out. I forgot. Was it a Fender? Whatever it was, it was like four new guitars he had just bought and he was showing it to them.

[May Pang]

Mm. Was George getting into it?

[John Lennon]

Yeah, you know, they were all looking at it. Oh, let me picked it up and you played, you know, you just sort of sit there and you're oh wow, okay.

[May Pang]

Reverting back to their teenage selves.

[John Lennon]

Absolutely. And you know, it was great.

[May Pang]

Wow. Oh cool. Now we know that in 72 he'd taken the trip to San Francisco with Yoko, you know, talking about the cross country drive.

[John Lennon]

That's with Peter. Peter went with him. Peter did the driving. He drove the station wagon they bought across country. Oh. For your listeners, a lot of people have no idea who was the other person in the black bag? Remember when we did De Cavett?

[May Pang]

Yes. Would everyone wearing a bag please step.

[John Lennon]

Up here so we could see the.

[May Pang]

Two people in the second row? I've never had guests.

[Ringo Starr]

Let it down, mate. You see an eggs there? What's going on?

[May Pang]

Can I help you adjust your.

[John Lennon]

There we are.

[Ringo Starr]

Now, see, if they were going for a job, you see, and you say, oh, what are your qualifications?

[May Pang]

How do you do?

[Ringo Starr]

And what color are you? And are you Christian or are you Hebrew? And yeah, you've got the job.

[May Pang]

Let us know when you're through voting. You know, I have no idea what.

[John Lennon]

Sex either of you is.

[May Pang]

And, and, And I assume you do.

[Ringo Starr]

Well, you see, you could go in the bag and make love to one of them and find out.

[May Pang]

I. I would, but this is a very short segment.

[Ringo Starr]

Oh, I see.

[John Lennon]

Okay.

[Ringo Starr]

Do you want to go off again then?

[May Pang]

If we had more time.

[Ringo Starr]

Yes, I know.

[John Lennon]

Oh, they're leaving. One.

[Ringo Starr]

You've seen.

[John Lennon]

Wait, wait.

[May Pang]

One thing, one thing. You will speak to me.

[John Lennon]

It's funny because I don't know where to look.

[May Pang]

I don't know if you're. If your nose or your eyes are here. Are you a lady?

[John Lennon]

Yes, I am.

[May Pang]

Would you hold voice? You are, for just a moment. Just stay where you are.

[John Lennon]

I'm offering you a glass of water. I don't drink water.

[May Pang]

You don't drink water?

[Ringo Starr]

We did. Have I made a social faux pas? No, I think it's all right. Because you don't know whether she's powering or foing in there, do you? So it's all right. You see, we did a talk show in England, and every time the man wanted to talk about Beatles, the interviewer, because I'm fed up talking about them, I asked him to go in a bag and he did it. And the interviewer, the Dick Cabot in England, he was in the bag all the time. So every time the camera panned to him, the audience broke up so he could never get the questions out. It's a very good show.

[May Pang]

Thank you.

[Ringo Starr]

Charming.

[May Pang]

Can you find your way down there?

[Ringo Starr]

Okay. You look very nice.

[John Lennon]

Yes.

[May Pang]

You're looking a little pale, but very nice.

[Ringo Starr]

They could be changing film, of course.

[May Pang]

They could be doing anything in there.

[John Lennon]

For all we know.

[Ringo Starr]

That's what it's about.

[John Lennon]

We will be Right back after this message, it turned out. I know it's written in somewhere that it said, oh, it's this guy Paul Mosian. Actually, it was Peter. Nobody remembers except me, obviously, because I'm the one in the black bag that he's talking to. And I remember Peter being in the other one.

[May Pang]

I'm glad you brought up Cavett, because you just reminded me of when you're in the audience for George's appearance. How did that come about?

[John Lennon]

Well, you know, Cavett wanted George to do it, and everybody was encouraging George, come on, you got to do it. You got to do it. They said, oh, go. You said, may, you should go to the audience, see how it goes, you know, And I went. And they obviously knew I was in the audience, so that was. I didn't have a clue too much later that I was filmed. Oh, I had no idea. Because you're sitting in the audience. Who knows? You know, everybody's laughing and I'm just saying. Okay, let's take one last question then.

[May Pang]

Which of the following is not true of Ravi Shankar? A, he started his career as a dancer. B, he made a record with Yehudi Menuin. D, he appeared at the Monterey. I mean, C, he appeared at the Monterey Pop Festival, or D, he played semi professional baseball in 1948. There is only one of those that isn't true.

[John Lennon]

Do you know that?

[Ringo Starr]

Yeah.

[May Pang]

How many have known the answer to everything so far? Anyone? Every so often. There, you, the man there, the lady.

[Ringo Starr]

Oh, yes.

[May Pang]

People don't like people like you who know everything. We will be back with my guests and everyone else shortly after this message.

[John Lennon]

Dick Cavett I met. He was lovely. In fact, just so you know, when Dick Havett came down to see John, I guess it was before their appearance, but it was after Fred Astaire. He had come and it was raining because he knocked on the door. I opened the door and he was a little drenched. It was a rainy day. So I remember. And he goes. And he looked at me and he goes, ah, you must be the girl that Fred was talking about. And I looked at him, he goes, a pretty Asian girl came up to him and it must be you. I was like, oh, my God, Fred Stair remembered me.

[May Pang]

Oh, how cool. And that was where Dick Cavett and Jon met. Right. When they filmed that. That was before he appeared on his show.

[John Lennon]

Yeah, and that's true. And, you know, and Dick Cavett came in and they had their conversations. I left the room whenever they had people. I just leave the room after they get shown in and get settled in.

[May Pang]

Yeah, all those interviews, the John and Yoko ones and the George one are just fabulous conversations to see. Now, I'm glad that George agreed to do it because TV interviews with him are so rare, especially.

[John Lennon]

Absolutely. It is rare. And he was always very, very nice and kind to me. Always.

[May Pang]

It was interesting for that show that besides, he clearly always liked to showcase Ravi at every opportunity. And it was the occasion of the Raga film premiering, but also the band with Gary Wright and Mick Jones, Wonder Wheel and sitting in with them.

[John Lennon]

That's right. And that was George. You know, he was just always helping everybody else. And it just reminds me of when John offered to help George on his Dark horse tour in 74. And he says, if you want my help, I'll be there.

[May Pang]

Let's cut forward to that. You guys saw him the Dark Horse tour in Nassau, right?

[John Lennon]

Yes. We went out there. John says, in case we have to do it, I want to see what his show is like. And I said, okay. So Chris Odell remembers this part. He goes, because I don't even remember how we got out there. And he goes, no, I remembered that I had to take you guys out. I said, okay. And we went out there and I turned to John and I said, we're not going to have Ravi tonight to open the show. You know, he goes, John being John, he goes, oh, good.

[May Pang]

I was going to say he'd gotten sick during the Chicago stop when that happened and sat out, I guess, about a dozen shows or something like that.

[John Lennon]

Ah, okay. Yes. And, you know, it was interesting. He saw what it was and John was ready there to help. I mean, we were standing there and some of the fans were leaning over, noticed. John and I, then we just sort of stepped back. We didn't want to take away from George anything.

[May Pang]

Do you remember your impression of the show?

[John Lennon]

It was a good show. I won't say spectacular, because spectacular for me would have been Bangladesh. But that was a good show. But John could have hyped that one up even more.

[May Pang]

Well, you had Billy there. That definitely served as kind of a spark plug on stage.

[John Lennon]

Oh, absolutely.

[May Pang]

It got so much bad press from the condition of his voice and bringing this Eastern stuff into people who wanted to see a Beatles show, they wanted to see Bangladesh 2, so they were kicking him around for that. And he seemed to have kind of a defensive tone throughout the press that he gives during that period.

[John Lennon]

This is really a test, you know.

[Ringo Starr]

I mean, I finished this tour ecstatically happy, and I want to go on tour of Every work or I'll end up just going back to McCabe again for another five years.

[John Lennon]

One thing about George, he doesn't hold anything back, whatever his feelings were, you know. But I understood and John did too, and he just wanted to help out his friend. Of course it didn't happen because that night that we were supposed to do it was the night that John and I and Neil had a meeting with regards to the dissolution paperwork.

[May Pang]

Listen to this balloon.

[John Lennon]

Right? And then we did go to the after party, though.

[May Pang]

But I was wondering how far they'd gotten in their talk because it was definitely a few days between the Nassau show and the Madison Square Garden show. Did they talk about what would John do? What song would he come out and play on stage?

[John Lennon]

I don't think they really got that far. But I don't think with them it would have mattered because they played so often together that it wasn't like Elton where they go, what song could we play? I think they already had it down however they wanted to do it.

[May Pang]

Yeah. Because I keep thinking what would have made sense would have been some oldie familiar to them both, some Chuck Berry tune or something like that.

[John Lennon]

Yeah. John said to me, he goes, you know, George was always like my kid brother. He always followed me everywhere I go. So I don't think there was anything about them that said, hey, you know, we're going to be stuck for a song. I think it was going to be okay no matter what. Right.

[May Pang]

It would have come easily.

[John Lennon]

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[May Pang]

Top tier hacker protection.

[John Lennon]

Plus you'll get up to $2 million in identity theft coverage. All for just $39.99 for your first year. Visit McAfee.com cancel anytime terms apply.

[May Pang]

I can say to my new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, hey, find a keto friendly restaurant nearby and text it to Beth and Steve.

[John Lennon]

And it does without me lifting a finger so I can get in more.

[May Pang]

Squats anywhere I can. 1, 2, 3. Will that be cash or credit?

[John Lennon]

Credit.

[May Pang]

4 Galaxy S25 Ultra, the AI companion that does the heavy lifting. So you can do you get [e-mail] compatible with select apps. Requires Google Gemini account. Results may vary based on input. Check responses for accuracy. Were you around for the discussions with Elton on how to end that?

[John Lennon]

Yeah.

[May Pang]

Before they landed On I saw her Standing there.

[John Lennon]

Yeah. There was just something that they said, what are we going to do? We need one more song somewhere. And John says, why don't we just do this? I never sang on this one, so let's just do this one. And that was it.

[May Pang]

And Beatle people have seized on it ever since, that he went out of his way to do a Paul song.

[John Lennon]

It was just something they wanted to do as a neutral. So Elton knew whatever it was. And so John says, yeah, why don't we just do this song? That's all it was. I know. Everybody wants to make something out of everything.

[May Pang]

It's what we do.

[Ringo Starr]

An old estranged fiance of mine called Paul.

[May Pang]

What's fascinating to me is the separation ends. He goes back to Yoko and they start crafting this narrative, the Lost Weekend, just on the basis of the discography alone. It's like, what are you talking about? How many number one singles did that period yield? Whatever gets you through the Night Lucy fame, for starters. And these collaborations that. I wonder what your take is. I just can't imagine happening absent the separation. Him working with Bowie, working with Elton working with Mick working with Harry, Paul collaborating with Ringo and Paul. Yeah, all this stuff. What is your take on that? Because it seemed to me, looking at it from a distance, it's like he clearly was somebody as an artist that really enjoyed collaborating with another artist on his level.

[John Lennon]

Oh, absolutely. Just to give you an idea, and this is in 75, it was in January and. And we had just come home from our Christmas holiday with Julian and everything, and Paul and Linda dropped by and they were telling us about how they're going to go down to New Orleans for their next album, which of course was the Venus and Mars. And you could see John's eyes like a kid in a candy store. New Orleans, you know, hello. He wanted to go. And he goes, yeah, I'm gonna go down. He goes, oh, that should be fun, you know, I could see his wheels turning. So after they left the next day, day after, he says, hey. It was during the daytime because I was working on something and I had my back to John. And he goes, I gotta ask you something. I said, what? You know, answering him this way, I said, what? He goes, should I write with Paul again? I was like the Exorcist. My head swung around and I said, of course you should. Are you talking about of course you should? He goes, well, why? And I said, because, you know, you guys solo wise are good, but when the two of you write together, it's Just magic. It's. It's special. It's different. And he goes, yeah, you're right. And he wanted to go down there. Now, here's the funny part. So obviously we didn't get a chance to do that. We were supposed to. And he said, let's get the plane tickets and whatever. On the last day I actually saw him before he went for his smoking thing. So he says, let's make those reservations. I said, okay. And I told Paul and Linda this story. Years and Years later, about 1989, I told him the story. So look how many years we're talking about from 75 to 89, right? And I told it to Linda first, and she said, you should tell it to Paul. I said, no, no, why don't just tell him we were thinking about coming to visit. No, no, no, no, you're going to do it. And she pushed me over to Paul, and this is in London. And, you know, Paul being Paul, he goes, yeah, yeah, oh, sure, sure. You know, bopping his head. And I go, well, what. Remember, as I said, what proof did I have to tell him something like this that we were going to go down there? Well, a year later or so, or a little, maybe over a year, I don't remember. Now he's in New York for the Buddy Holly party that he had in New York, and they had at this place. And I got a call, they said, oh, Paul and Linda would like to invite you to come to this party, blah, blah, blah, and said, sure, when is it tonight? Thinking, wow, a lot of time for advance notice. And so I go down there with Tony, my husband, and I see them coming through the door. They had just arrived on the Concord. So they came in and I see them, and I'm standing there and they come straight towards me. And he goes. I said, hey, so thank you for the invite. And he's going, did you tell her? And Linda says, how could I have told her I came in with you? And I said, tell me what? He goes, well, you know how Derek Taylor is. You know how he always sells his stuff, you know, whatever. He got his postcards and stuff because I got one of them. I said, yeah, what? He goes, it was from John to Derek, saying, thinking of visiting the Max in New Orleans. Boom. That was it. So now what I said was something that he now realized was that's where we were planning to do, and it's.

[May Pang]

On record in that teleconference he did to promote rock and roll. It comes up there, too, and he mentions it.

[Ringo Starr]

Hello, John. Bobby Reno WNOE in New Orleans.

[May Pang]

Paul McCartney is currently doing his album here.

[Ringo Starr]

Yeah, I know.

[May Pang]

Might be working with him, guys.

[Ringo Starr]

Well, I've been trying to get away, but I keep getting subpoenaed by different people.

[May Pang]

Those are the two smoking guns for.

[John Lennon]

See, these are the little things I'm finding out now that I can definitely. Would you just put that in to give me some place so I have a reference of it? Okay. Because I have no idea. I'm just sort of like, oh, okay. Because it's too vast for me and I don't follow every single thing. Right.

[May Pang]

And why would you. We're down at the macro level doing this stuff, so you don't have to.

[John Lennon]

Thank you.

[May Pang]

You're welcome. So it's interesting that this year of 74 is when he's doing all this outside collaboration stuff with these people that clearly he was friendly with. Bowie would have been new Elton. He'd only just gotten formally introduced to in the autumn of 73 through Tony King.

[John Lennon]

Oh, yeah. Elton Wright. It was on my birthday and that.

[May Pang]

Was the occasion of filming Tony in drag as the Queen doing the Mind Games promo.

[John Lennon]

Yeah, that was the selling of the Mind Games. John thought, oh, hilarious. We should get the Queen to sell it, you know. So I just remembered when we went to the studio, all I remember was Tony King coming up to us. He goes, oh, my Lord. He goes, it's three hours in getting into makeup, darling, you know.

[Ringo Starr]

Ladies and gentlemen, Her Royal Highness the Queen.

[John Lennon]

Good evening. I've been asked to do this commercial. It relates to a gramophone record called Mind Games by John Lennon.

[May Pang]

So keep on playing those mind games together. Were you part of this massive reissue of Mind Games this year? Obviously, you were around for the creation of that album. Were you solicited for any contribution to this package that just came out?

[John Lennon]

None. Zip.

[May Pang]

Okay. So you can interpret what you would from that. If you're assuming next on the slate is going to be Walls and Bridges, which you are eyeball deep in. Have you heard anything? Has there been any rumblings about that being the next set? And obviously you were the big collaborator, organizer of that in real time. What's going to happen? Any idea?

[John Lennon]

I have none. I don't really have a relationship with the other side at all, with Sean at all. None.

[May Pang]

None.

[John Lennon]

Okay. Absolutely nothing. No, I wouldn't know. I only get my info from what I read.

[May Pang]

Did you have a take on the set? The Mind Game set? Did you check it out?

[John Lennon]

I checked out some of it and I thought, okay, this is interesting. But I didn't recognize it. This is what Sean wanted, but that's not what John wanted. I know certain things that John wanted.

[May Pang]

So it was slightly different, a little revisionist.

[John Lennon]

Yeah. If you're going to tell me that that was John's album, that I would say, no, that's not it. But, you know, that's Sean's revision on it. That's his prerogative to do whatever he wants to do on his dad's stuff. But I wouldn't call that John's stuff at all, because he had an idea in his mind and that's the way it went out back then.

[May Pang]

And you would know.

[John Lennon]

I would know. I was with him every single day when we were in the studio. There wasn't a day I wasn't there. And in fact, when he started that Mind Games, the only person that could go to the studio was me. He wouldn't let anybody else in. And he told that to Yoko, who came to me and told me that. And he goes, you know, he doesn't want anybody else in there, so you're the only one going with him.

[May Pang]

So Yoko wasn't around for Mind Games.

[John Lennon]

She wasn't there that often, let's put it that way, because I was busy working on her album, doing press, because she had just finished Feeling the Space. So I was working double time on that. I was working getting her press on that. So when I could leave him alone in the studio for a bit, then I would go and help her make sure that she got what she needed done. So she wasn't always in the studio.

[May Pang]

Yeah, that was very interesting. This presentation where he is sort of recasting it as a John and Yoko.

[John Lennon]

Album, Mind Games, I guess that's what they want to do.

[May Pang]

Well, watching the pretzel he twists himself into to make Walls and Bridges a Yoko album will be interesting.

[John Lennon]

I know that. Or Rock and Roll or anything else that I sat in on.

[May Pang]

Right, Mother Superior.

[John Lennon]

Mother Superior. Right. So it's interesting because, you know, in my head, I know the notes, what. What John was doing when he was singing, what he was looking for. I was there.

[May Pang]

We do know that he was very proud of Walls and Bridges. And this was after he had worked on the Nilsson album he had done. Well, he hadn't finished Rock and Roll yet that had been started, but he'd done Mind Games as his first sole producer credit on his own work. And Walton Bridges is the one he was really satisfied with and proud of. Did you ever get a sense of his take on Mind Games?

[John Lennon]

All I remember the first time was when he said, I'm ready to go back into this studio. And I said, really? Because I was working with Yoko at the time. And I said, when do you want to go in? And he knew it was at the tail end of her stuff. So he goes, in two weeks. And I looked at him and I went, in two weeks. He goes, yeah, better get writing. He goes, if I don't go now, I won't ever go back in that soon back to the studio. He had been out of it for a while, and I said, okay, okay. And I booked it for him and he said, let me get writing. And a lot of people would say, yes, I hear he started writing this. And, you know, they have all the cassettes and all the different things.

[May Pang]

Yeah, Make Love Not War.

[John Lennon]

Yeah. What he does is he would just type it in or sing it into the cassettes and he would leave it there and it'd be from one song. And then he'll go, eh, okay, now I'm gonna move it to something else. So he then combined. He was great at combining the songs together. I was just asked about Harry Nielsen, you know, where, as you know, in the Many Rivers To Cross, he created the music, which is the orchestral arrangement of that and Many Years. And John said, it's too good to leave it here. So of course it became. And he. And he said it and he told. He goes, I'm not leaving it here, I'm taking it back. And he took it and of course it became Number nine Dream. And a lot of people said, didn't he scream and make that. I said, that's not John screaming, that's Harry. And I said, but what he did do was. He did do in the middle of Many Rivers, there's all these oohs and whatever they're singing in there. And that was done by Laurie Burton and John. That's the part where they did sing. That was it.

[May Pang]

Yeah. I know that people hang out to that coda of Many Rivers where it sounds like this exciting duet, the screaming match between John and Harry. We would love to think that, but, yes, you're here to say, nope, sorry.

[John Lennon]

John wouldn't ruin his voice for that. That type of thing. Harry ruined it and he didn't tell us, which we were quite upset about. That's why John finally says, can't work here. LA is not the place. And we went. It came back to New York. And I really want people to understand we did not. John and I did not move to la. You know, that was not something that happened. We went there for a holiday and ended up getting caught up in different projects. But we came home. We actually flew back to New York. You never heard about it because there was nothing happening. It only happened out in LA all the time. But everybody thinks we moved out there. We didn't.

[May Pang]

Right. It was an extended holiday rather than a lost weekend.

[John Lennon]

Yes, exactly.

[May Pang]

And so you were always coming home.

[John Lennon]

We were always coming home. You know, it was like we flew back and then we flew out again. You know, just kept going in and out of the place and. No, and I'm going to say it on your show, Yoko did not send us out there. She didn't even know we were out in la. In fact, I had to tell. I said, john, I think we better tell her at one point, because nobody knew where we were. We went out with Harold. We went out with his lawyer.

[May Pang]

I was going to say Harold was the impetus for this.

[John Lennon]

Yeah, right, exactly. And so Elliot did not pick us up. I just have to put that in.

[May Pang]

Thank you for addressing the elephant in the room. Have you read it?

[John Lennon]

No. Though people have been sending me snippets of it and of course I have a lot of disagreements with what he's saying. I mean, it's ridiculous what he said because some of the things he has are not true. He put himself in places that he wasn't even there. So I'm just looking at it and going, okay, what else is new?

[May Pang]

There are demonstrably things in that that are not true. Right. Even things that have nothing to do with you that people have already fact checked. I get it's his memoir. This is how he remembers it. But I do remember when it was announced well in advance of it coming out, that he was doing a book at long last. I was struck by the timing of it was when you were riding high with your doc and your stuff and getting all this press. It's like, here it comes. Counter programming.

[John Lennon]

You got it. You got it. Very smart. Thank you. Yeah, I knew the minute I heard that. I said, oh, well, who else is left to do this quote? That's from that time period. Him and Bob Gruen are about the only two. But Gruen wasn't even with us. All of a sudden I find him either he has John in there, but puts me out of it. I'm not in it. Which is happened again. I'm never in certain places. And you know, like when they say, oh, the Statue of Liberty. I said, I was there. He goes, oh, you were. You know, it's like everybody's shocked that I'm in these places because I'm not mentioned. I don't try to say I'm there for anybody, you know, it's me. But if you're going to talk about it, yeah, I was there.

[May Pang]

Exactly. Yeah. The deliberate omission in certain situations.

[John Lennon]

True. All the time.

[May Pang]

What I wanted to circle back to, I started to ask you about that trip to San Francisco, the methadone treatment. Were you aware of that in real time, what was happening?

[John Lennon]

I had heard about it, but because I was not with them at that point in the sense of on a day to day basis. I was working in the other office across town. I was happy because where they were living, they were living on bank street. And when they were living on Bank Street, Peter was there and another girl was there. And the place is like as big as this office. And it was like, I'm so happy not to be part of that little enclave in there, you know, because it was just so crowded, you know, I probably would have wanted to quit because there was no room to breathe.

[May Pang]

Claustrophobic?

[John Lennon]

Oh yeah, very claustrophobic. I mean, it was a beautiful brownstone. The back room, which was their bedroom, was big and beautiful. But you can't be in their back room. You'd only be in the front. And there was this like tiny little kitchenette with a little sitting room. Later I found out that they had rented it from Joe Butler. It was from Joe Butler, the Loving Spoonful.

[May Pang]

Oh, wow.

[John Lennon]

It was his apartment. So that's where that was. So he lived there. And I remember talking to Joe about it. We were laughing and joking about it. But I think whoever bought it later bought the building just recently have just had it demolished or something. But yeah, so that was back then and I was just glad. But I knew that Peter did the driving and went across America and they were going to see Dr. Hong. He was the acupuncturist that helped him get off of the methadone out there. But here's the funny part. Peter forgot to bring the meth on the road. So they actually went cold turkey on the road again. I wouldn't want to be in that car, right?

[May Pang]

No.

[John Lennon]

Yeah.

[May Pang]

Well, the timing is an interesting thing to me because this is post sometime in New York City Sessions. That album is out in America, came out a little bit later in Britain and they're doing this. It's before the one to one show. But you do any kind of research into addict recovery and there's certainly optimum conditions to be as Far as the environment that this should happen. Lest the recovery not go smoothly. And he really wasn't in that situation. So you start to see signs of, like, a psychological breakdown. Which sure enough happened within the next year. You know, the thing happens election Day night with John and Yoko, Jerry Rubin, Then their marriage craters the following year. But you also have this lack of productivity. So that he does the New York City album, It Bombs. He doesn't get the hit single out of it that he was expecting. And in the meantime, Yoko's on a roll. She does a double album. Approximately Infinite Universe follows that upward feeling to space. And it's only as you described, that's when he just starts getting back into making music again. That's a prolonged period of lack of musical activity for him. And it speaks to something going on with him that's never really been addressed before. And I was just wondering if that was something you were witness to.

[John Lennon]

What happened was, again, Harold Sider is a major person in this thing. Because we were going through the Klein thing, too. That was when the lawsuits and everything was going on. He came to see them and he saw them in this apartment. And he said, you cannot stay here. That was his thing. He goes, we need to move you out of here. And that's when they found the apartment in Dakota. And that's when things started to change. He was starting to, I guess, feel more open because he was in this. The apartment in Joe's apartment was like all wood dark, you know, feeling, like you said, not knowing what it's like, because I didn't really take drugs. But I can only imagine the feelings he was going through. And he's in that almost cocoon that he couldn't get out of.

[May Pang]

Right. Very dark. There's something we said about lightness. People who are susceptible to seasonal depression, for sure, sunlight is a big, huge thing. And you're describing that. It didn't have that. It was very dark. That is another aspect of the environment that's not conducive to recovery.

[John Lennon]

Right. And I didn't see them that often then. It was great because I was on the other side and I could avoid. I was just doing what I had to do from that other office on the other side. And we call it Joco Films because the film crew was upstairs and I was downstairs. And it was much better environment for me. It was bright. It was whatever was lively. He didn't have that. But whatever liveliness that was over there was too encroaching on his privacy. Like I said, it was small. It was dark and you go, oh, I don't want these people here. What do I do? You know, he was sounded miserable, that's all I'm going to say. So I was just very happy not to be around there. And you're right, it was August 31st. They did the show for the one to one. They were having arguments with Geraldo at that point too. We're lucky came off and he got back on the stage and with all the different people. And like I said, when he was at the Dakota, he just squirreled himself away for a little bit. And I mean, I would see him, but he was now opening up and there was room for him to breathe. As I would say, the place was big enough for him to wander around without us feeling like we were on top of him.

[May Pang]

Change of environment. But he still wasn't well.

[John Lennon]

He wasn't completely well, but I didn't know what was happening, you know, it was okay. He was friendly to me. He wasn't nasty or just. Or miserable. He just wasn't recording. He wasn't doing anything, you know, that's all I remember. Here's one of those notes that would come in. You know, I came in one day because he drink coffee. Because he would always say, if you're in America, you drink coffee. If you're in England, you drink tea. So we're in America, so I'm drinking coffee. So we have Mr. Coffee Machine drank that a ton. And I remember coming in early. I always used to come in early at the Dakota and would come in and I saw this note. If you're gonna drink a pot of coffee, don't forget to leave us another pot. I mean, it was like one of those notes. And I went, oh, okay. But the way it was written, it leapt out at you and you felt him saying it to you. It wasn't like, oh, caps, you know, I was like, yikes. Okay, for the next person. And I walked away. Okay, next one. Then I remember whoever was in the room, I said, did you read it? He goes, oh, yeah, you know, it was just miserable.

[May Pang]

Thanks.

[John Lennon]

So I walked down to the office. I was walking towards. There was an office right next off the kitchen. And it was this guy, John Hendricks, who was also an avant garde artist, a friend of Yoko's that ended up working for them, but more inclined to work with Yoko than anything else. And I remember as I walked into his office because he took care of the petty cash. And also. And I walked in, I turned and that note is hanging on the wall. And I Went like this. And I went, do you have to have this note up? Because it was just not a feel good note, you know, it was really bad.

[May Pang]

Yeah. Stressing you out.

[John Lennon]

It was stressing me out. And I don't get worried. And I went, do you need this? And he goes, it's art. And I said, so if I wrote that note, would that be considered art? He goes, you're not John Lennon. Oh, God help me. So I looked at him and I did what I had to do, turning Penny. And I. I said, you won't take it off. I guess you just gave me that. No, you're not getting it. You're not getting your wish. I was just so exacerbated by it. So I turned around and I walked out of his office and I walked right into John and I went, oh. And he goes, are you okay? Oh, I'm fine. And I walked down the hall and he knew I was upset about something, but I wasn't going to tell him. He walks into the office and all I hear was, get that shit off the wall. I left you a note. I didn't leave it for it to be hung up. You read it, throw it away. And all I heard was, oh, yes, John. Yes, John, of course, John. Anything you say. He had to take it off right at that very moment.

[May Pang]

But you didn't hear. But it's art.

[John Lennon]

No, definitely not. So I just remember walking down going, yes, yes. Because that really was a note that didn't make you feel good. You know, if you saw it every day, it'd just be like just some reminder.

[May Pang]

Carry a lot of weight.

[John Lennon]

It does. His words did carry a lot of weight.

[May Pang]

Yes. To go back to the one to one show for a second. It's long been reported that in the run up to it, he'd actually sent word to Paul, would you like to join me? And now this year with the Mind Game set, there is that telegram, I don't know if you've seen it, dated 2-22-72, right on the heels of the stuff that was going on in Ireland, Northern Ireland. And each one of them has written a song. Give Ireland Back to the Irish and Luck of the Irish, Sunday, Bloody Sunday, where John is proposing to join him for a benefit to Paul. Were you aware of John's mindset in Even we know that they'd gotten past their feuding by the end of 71, that he was entertaining at least, if not collaborating, at least sharing a stage with him?

[John Lennon]

No, don't remember because it was just so chaotic around that time. Period that I don't remember any of that.

[May Pang]

It is interesting that throughout 1972, that's part of his thinking.

[John Lennon]

Yeah. Never got that feeling about Paul being around or he wanted him around.

[Ringo Starr]

Listen to this television commercial. Whatever get you through the night. It's all right.

[John Lennon]

It's all right.

[Ringo Starr]

You've been listening to John Lennon's new album, Walls and Bridges. Thank you, Ringo. It's a pleasure, John.

[May Pang]

So in the perfect world where your input is taken seriously for Walls and Bridges in a deluxe set, what would you like to see in it? What do you know that exists that you would like to see as part of a comprehensive package?

[John Lennon]

Wow. When he did that record and why he was so proud of it, he got it in on time in less than eight weeks, start to finish. Right. And handed it in. And he was on budget, and the album was $60,000.

[May Pang]

At the demo today.

[John Lennon]

Yeah, I know, right? And he was so proud of it because when he was on. He was on. He just. He knew what he wanted, he knew the sounds he wanted, he knew what he heard, you know, where he was going with it. He was most proud of that album. I think if he could have for the album, you know, I think. I think of Julian because we put in his Yaya and it was a surprise for Julian. I just remembered. He goes, julian, I hope you heard that. He goes, oh, dad, if I knew you were going to put it on, I would have played better.

[May Pang]

Was there much more tape that exists of the Julian session that you're aware of?

[John Lennon]

No, there really wasn't. That was the best of that lot. It just happened to be at that moment. It was just all on the spur of the moment. I think we were talking about it. John always wanted to do Only you, which of course came out right. But I remember when he first sang it to me the way he wanted it before it was ever put on tape, and I thought, what a great thing. He had different things that he wanted that he wanted to redo. How he sang Help. He wanted to redo that.

[May Pang]

Did you hear him sing Help?

[John Lennon]

Yeah, he sang it to me.

[May Pang]

Wow. So this was the slower version because they always thought it was too fast in commercial.

[John Lennon]

Yeah. Wow. But I heard. I heard a drunken version of it. But no, I heard him sing it to me in his straight version the way he wanted it. So, yes, in my ears, in my brain, I could hear him singing it.

[May Pang]

Oh, man. Well, and now we can AI it.

[John Lennon]

Oh, God. I'm sure. I'm sure that's going to come back soon, somewhere. It's going to come back soon. Yeah, it's a lot of different things, but I remember we used to talk about the different songs. And what was great was that we had such a connection when it came to songs. He was just so surprised that I knew that much about the songs and what the songs that I liked, he liked. So I said, and I would just be just as surprised by it.

[May Pang]

Yeah. Which is amazing thing that I don't know how many people know this is that you're a New York kid growing up listening to these great rock and roll stations in the 50s, and you guys had the same vocabulary.

[John Lennon]

Yes, we definitely think it's. And he would say to me, how does that work? Because he was 10 years older than me. And I would say to him, I got it firsthand. You had to wait. And he went, oh, yeah, you're right. I mean, I am so glad I got a chance to say to Carla Thomas, loved her voice. He loved her singing. And she said to me one day, she goes, john Lennon knew who I am. You know, I was. I said, absolutely. And she was so taken aback. And I said, one of the songs that he played for me that you recorded was I Can't Take It. And she looked at me with, you know, oh, my God. It was a B side to another song. Because I always said John was a B side lover. And that was what his thing was. He always looked at B sides.

[May Pang]

Wow. How that must have blown her away. That's amazing.

[John Lennon]

Yeah.

[May Pang]

I connoisseur.

[John Lennon]

If I ever hear of certain things, or I know of certain things, or John thought that that was his favorite or something, I would go and tell that person, because they never know unless I tell them. Because I've had that conversation with John, you know. Another song that he loved was Fontella Bass Rescue Me.

[May Pang]

Did you tell her that?

[John Lennon]

No, I've never met her. One of John's favorite songs in 75 was Love Train OJ's. And, you know, he's a disco lover. He was a disco. A lot of people go, no, no. And I said, yeah, he. He loved that beat. He was more about the beat.

[May Pang]

Rock youk Baby's a great record.

[John Lennon]

Oh, yeah. And then he tried to work with Roy Sakala, who was his engineer from Record Plant, who owned the Record Plant. And his wife was a great singer and songwriter, Laurie Burton. And so I sent Laurie, because she didn't even have it at the end. I sent her the two songs that they worked on. So it was with that beat. It was great. One was called Answer Me and the other one was called I Can't even remember the Title. It was a song that she ended up doing fifth from 50s. It was great.

[May Pang]

You reminded me of the session with Mick for Too Many Cooks.

[John Lennon]

Yeah.

[May Pang]

That you kept the tape of under your bed, apparently.

[John Lennon]

Yeah, yeah. Nobody had it. I kept everything. John left me the whole lot.

[May Pang]

How'd that session fall together?

[John Lennon]

Every weekend, if you're around on a Sunday, they had the Jim Keltner Fan Club Hour. And you just show up at the studio and it was at the record Plant out west. And you never know who's going to show up. And there he was, you know. This time it was Mick and you couldn't hear Harry, but Harry was amongst the girls. There was a group of girls singers. And then it was Jack Bruce, Al Cooper, Jim Keltner, Bobby Keys and Trevor Lawrence as the horn players. And Mick had already chosen the song. And that was Too Many Cooks. Then John says, no, I don't want to play. I want to produce this one. I want to sit back there. So that's what happened.

[May Pang]

Was there ever a realistic plan for. Obviously they're taking the performance seriously when they're laying this down. It's not just ad hoc.

[John Lennon]

Well, it was only for playing, just for the fun of it, believe it or not. But John took it more serious. And here's the funny part. So we loved it. You hear the record? Yeah, I love this. And John played it for Harold because Harold also worked at United Artist Records. So we said in those days, the joke was, oh, A and R people don't know anything from here to there, right? So we said, come on. So John's going, come on, Harold. Take it to the A and R guy, See what they say. So he takes it to one of the A and R guys and he says, what do you think? The manager is going to sign it with somebody else, but we have a shot at this. Plays in the song. And I said to Harold, I wish you'd kept the note. Do you do this all the time? He goes, I know the guy wrote back. He says, the singer can't sing and the band can't play. We're going to take a pass.

[May Pang]

And this was a blind test. They didn't know who was on it. Never told them, okay, great. Guitar groups are on the way out, right?

[John Lennon]

So we were just laughing. I said, I can't even believe that. The guy can't even hear that it sounds like Mick or says, this guy's an imitation Mick or anything. I Mean nothing. John and I just was. We were howling after we saw this.

[May Pang]

Mass Marauders. Yeah.

[John Lennon]

Yeah. So there was all these things that happened. There's actually two versions of that that we mixed. I forgot which one I gave Mick. There are two versions. Here's another version.

[May Pang]

Another completely different take or just a different mix?

[John Lennon]

Different mix.

[May Pang]

Okay. On the subject, in this period that you guys are together and you're making a lot of music and just immersed in this world of peer artists, it seems like the people of John's sort of peer age group that were artists in the 60s, successful. The Stones, Mick, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon. Paul. Did you get a sense? Because they're putting out amazing product during this time. 74, 75, blood on the Tracks, still crazy after all these years, things like that. Did you get a read on how he was reacting to people of his age just doing such great work during that period?

[John Lennon]

I think he was happy that everybody was doing great work. He was always listening for new things. He was thrilled to just hear that everybody was doing well. You know when you tell John, you know, oh, look at. And it was on tv, and he's going, oh. And the legendary Eric Clapton at Madison Square Garden, he's going, oh. And he goes. I said, what do you mean? And he goes, can you imagine being known as legendary? And I'm looking at him like he didn't see himself in that category.

[May Pang]

Sure.

[John Lennon]

So it was quite fascinating. And I said, you don't think you're. No, not me. He was actually a much more shy and much more reserved about his own. He didn't like his voice. He didn't think he had a good singing voice. I had to coax him on that one, too. I said, stop it. He goes, are you sure? I said, oh, you have a great voice. But people couldn't believe it when he'd be in the studio and say, just mess up my voice. I don't think I have a good one.

[May Pang]

Unbelievable.

[John Lennon]

And everybody's like, what's he saying?

[May Pang]

Going forward into 1975, had he'd chosen the other path, he's got work he's starting to do. For the follow up to Walls and Bridges between the Lines. You were probably aware of the songs he was writing and demoing.

[John Lennon]

Oh, we had about at least four or five that was in the can already. Yeah. And he changed the lyrics, he told me. And in one of his calls to me, as I say, yeah, he said. Because he goes, I wanted to keep the publishing, so I changed. And they made a different deal. Obviously, so he says, I want to keep it. So he says, I didn't hand it in. And I changed the lyrics.

[May Pang]

You talk about the 75 demos when he changed the lyrics and they merged to something else. Yes, because some of that ended up on Double Fantasy, some of the stuff that he was demoing back in your.

[John Lennon]

Period with him, Right, Definitely. And you hear about it. One of the songs that he really wrote that I thought was great was Tennessee, because his favorite writer was Tennessee Williams. And he played it for me. Tennessee, oh, Tennessee what you shown to me.

[Ringo Starr]

Your words like water pure and.

[John Lennon]

Clear.

[Ringo Starr]

The sadness of your soul reveals.

[John Lennon]

The music of the sphere and sealed.

[Ringo Starr]

Behind your spirit mind your power to.

[John Lennon]

Love and fear I will say I was lucky. I heard it all acoustically first, before he laid it down. It was really beautiful the way he wrote it. And he goes, what do you think? And I said, and it was just the way he sang it to me. John had this lilt in his voice and, you know, and he could. He could make those notes bend, you know. And he goes, it was just beautiful.

[May Pang]

That tear in his voice. Yeah, absolutely. Soulfulness, people react to.

[John Lennon]

Yes. And so I was very fortunate enough to always hear him when he sang to me.

[May Pang]

You talked about one of these calls he made people know about the South African one in 1980. That's the last time you guys spoke, right?

[John Lennon]

That was the last direct contact that I had with him. It was Memorial Weekend, and I just come back in with my friends and. And the phone rings, and all I heard was, hello. That's all I needed to hear. And I knew his voice, and I went, oh, hi. You know, hi, John. And I. And my girlfriend. There was a couple of girls there. One of them looked at me and he goes, my John, you know, because her husband was named. And I'm waving like, no, no, not at all. And just remember him going, have time to talk to me? I said, of course, I'll make time. And slowly, everybody just sort of left me. They left the apartment. They all went home. And I sat and talked to him for the next hour and a half to two hours on the phone. He just wanted to see how I was doing. He would ask about the people that he hadn't seen in a while. Do you still see them? He knew I would see them, especially Harold, because by that point, he wasn't working. Yoko had gotten rid of him in the process. And I said, no, I see Harold. And he goes, would you just tell him I love him? I miss him. So there were things like that that we would talk about. And it was a lot of personal stuff, talking about where we were, what we were doing. And he's sitting there and he's going, you know, I'm trying to figure out how we can catch up with one another in person. So it's all these little things going on.

[May Pang]

How long had it been since you'd seen him?

[John Lennon]

About a year.

[May Pang]

Okay. So in 79, some point towards the end.

[John Lennon]

77, 78. Around that time period where it's the winter time or fall. You know, it's the end of 77, beginning 78, right around there. It was the last time I physically saw him. And this is when he came over and he's talking to me about. He heard this song on the radio, and every time he hears it, he thinks of us and me and whatever, and I. And he's humming it to me, and I'm going, I think I might have the record. Yep. And it was reminiscing. Right. I played it, like, on a loop for him, you know, over and over. We were listening to it, and it was quite interesting. So he goes, every time I hear it, I think of you.

[May Pang]

There was a guest on this show. I know you've met him before because he described it, and he's written in the latest edition of the book he published 20 years ago. He brought it up to date and made reference to you in the book. Because this is Robert Rosen, the guy did the Nowhere Man.

[John Lennon]

Oh, right. He's the guy. Because I don't really know him.

[May Pang]

But you've met him. Yes. In fact, he said you had some kind of unique purse. And I'm trying to remember what it was that he met you at somebody's house or something.

[John Lennon]

If I did, I met him once. I really didn't know him. He's the guy that knew everything about the diary. Am I correct about that one?

[May Pang]

Correct. Brought them to him after John died. Yeah.

[John Lennon]

Right. I asked Fred about that. I said, why'd you give it to somebody that was his roommate? I said, really? I don't know if I would have trusted anybody.

[May Pang]

In his latest appearance on the show, he wanted to respond to having seen your doc and that how much of what was presented there aligns with what was in John's diaries?

[John Lennon]

Oh. Oh, wow.

[May Pang]

Yeah. And there's one thing he brought up that I feel like this is not something I would ordinarily ask a person, except he brought it up, and if you can verify it or not, some encounter you and John had where you went to see a friend who was sick with cancer in the hospital. And you ran into each other?

[John Lennon]

Yes.

[May Pang]

So that really happened?

[John Lennon]

Yes.

[May Pang]

Okay. Because it just sounded a bit like something somebody would dream.

[John Lennon]

No, in fact, it was me who told him that this was our mutual friend, the same guy that owned the house in Ellenville. His wife told me he's ill. And I said, I'll tell John, because John wasn't talking to him for a while. So I said. And so we would meet.

[May Pang]

There is like 77 or so.

[John Lennon]

No, that was even earlier. It was about probably 76. It probably was earlier. Definitely late 75. 76. Somewhere in there.

[May Pang]

The phone call from South Africa in 1980. Just for the people that aren't getting the full picture. He had just been in a visit to South Africa. It's mid-1980. He's about to return, then take the Bermuda trip, and right after that, start the Double Fantasy sessions. So was that anything in his thinking when he talked to you? Did he know he was about to get back in the studio?

[John Lennon]

I think there was, because when he told me that he rewritten the lyrics, you could sense there's something coming up. But he didn't tell me what. He wasn't sure. I think he took each time period at that moment as it came. Whatever was coming to him, he was just looking, you know, for him to go to South Africa and not go back to Liverpool. I said, what are you doing there? That was my first question. Why are you in Cape Town? And he goes, well, you know, it's Yoko and her east meets west nonsense, you know. And I. I said, oh, okay. I didn't need to say anymore.

[May Pang]

Was that how he described it? Nonsense, yes. And yet he did it.

[John Lennon]

I think for him, he did it also because he wanted to get out of the environment that he was in. So it was easier to just leave and just go away.

[May Pang]

Did you get a sense of the quality of his life at that time during those five years?

[John Lennon]

Let's see. I saw him in 77. I think I saw. Oh, wait a minute. I might have seen him in 78 too. I've seen him at various times, so I seen him quite often in between 75 and 78. Somewhere in there, I saw. I remember seeing him and I just had this look on my face. And he said, I'm just losing weight because you know how I am. I can't get rid of this pouch, you know. He was always worried about getting fat. And I'm looking at him and all I saw was skin and bones.

[May Pang]

So it's a Dramatic difference.

[John Lennon]

Absolutely. And I looked at him and I said, what happened here? You know, because he knew I was staring at him. And he goes, I said, how much weight do you have now? He goes, I just want to lose another five pounds. I said, how much do you weigh now? He was 135. And then he goes, I want to lose another five. I said, another five? You don't need to lose any more because the pictures you see of him in my is anywhere between 155 and 160, you know, so all of a sudden it was like this loss of weight. I didn't like it, obviously, and he saw the look on my face about.

[May Pang]

It, which begs the question, because this is something Beatle people have been arguing quite violently over. How tall was John?

[John Lennon]

About five, ten and a half or so.

[May Pang]

Okay. Not five eight, not five eleven.

[John Lennon]

No. I would say, you know, you want to push to 5 11, you could probably get there. But he was not 5 8.

[May Pang]

Okay.

[John Lennon]

Ringo was 5 8.

[May Pang]

Okay. That's good to know. Because you. If anybody is around to validate this, the story is you guys, which sometimes wear the same jeans and things like that, so you know how tall you are. And therefore, for it to fit him, he has to be within a certain range.

[John Lennon]

Right, Right. The jeans were unisex jeans, so obviously they were cut so that we could fit both a man or a woman, whichever one wanted to get it. And I remember they were my favorite jeans, so losing them was heartbreak.

[May Pang]

But certainly leg length would enter into that. So if they were fitting your frame.

[John Lennon]

Yeah.

[May Pang]

And they could fit John's, too. Then he wasn't the King of the forest, but he was not Ringo either.

[John Lennon]

No, definitely. They were a little longer on me than they were on him. Obviously, for me, it was. I wore my platform shoes. It would just get off the floor with him. It was already off the floor, you know, So I would say he was about five, ten and a half.

[May Pang]

Or you would know.

[John Lennon]

Yeah. And he wasn't short. He was taller than me. But if I wore my heels, I could be just matching him.

[May Pang]

Okay. There's some pictures where you see him playing guitar, and it seems like he's playing a short scale, like he didn't have a big reach. That's what made me wonder, well, was he smaller than we thought he was? But you're confirming what you knew. I don't know if somebody has shared this with you, but the hypnotist to end his smoking, that didn't take Elliot is claiming that honor, that he was the Guy that found him. What do you think of that?

[John Lennon]

Knowing Yoko, I don't know where. I know, I heard about that, that he was on that call. He wouldn't have known what was going on, believe me. Elliot was not there and it was on the whim when she called. It's gotta be done today. It's gotta be done today. So who's gonna argue with him? Because he's already said things that didn't match on other stuff. Why should I believe him on that? And when I remember Yoko saying to John, and John's going, what? You found somebody that could help you quit smoking? And knowing Yoko, if it had been Elliot, she would have said it to him. Where did you get this? You know, she would have said, oh, Elliot. Because she never hold back. She would just say, oh, I got this guy. I found this guy through Elliot. Or whatever. She never said a word. She goes, oh, I found this guy. And you know, he's this, that whatever.

[May Pang]

Right. I always found the timing very interesting that this whole episode happened because you guys are house shopping in Montauk. He's talking about working with Paul again. Things are moving. And you're about to miss the train that's pulling out of the station.

[John Lennon]

Yeah. And that's why it's like, oh, things are moving along. You get it, you see it. You're one of the few that can actually see the whole picture. Because it's been that. And my whole time for the last 50 years of this has been people didn't want to believe that I had this and had what was going on. And so I reside just not doing anything. But I got tired of, as I said to someone, you get tired of someone saying they're taking the credit for everything when you know it's not them. And I finally got tired. I said, you know what? The other day it was on X. I gotta remember it's X now, where they said, I felt bad that after the Elton John concert that John went home with Yoko. Stop. Time out. That's not the way it happened. So I only do it every so often when I catch it and I'll say something, otherwise I can't be bothered.

[May Pang]

Becomes whack a mole.

[John Lennon]

Yeah. You know, it is because there's so many. But I happened to pick on this guy and. And it turned out he watched and he said, I'm very sorry for. I said, it's because it's you guys. And you keep sending it and becomes viral and that becomes the storyline and you've changed my storyline. And that's not the way it happened. So when I come back with the way it did, you go, no, that I've had more people say to me, I know everything about you. I've read everything about you. And I said, you believe everything? He goes, yeah, they all say it.

[May Pang]

Did you read the Playboy interview when it came out in 1980?

[John Lennon]

I remember reading parts of it, and I just couldn't, you know, a lot of these stories become raw for me, and I just can't read it.

[May Pang]

That's what I was wondering.

[John Lennon]

Yeah. It's just hard. Hard for me to look at it and read it. And there are certain things I'm reading and I'm going, you know that's not true. You know, and you know it's not true. And John, when John and I would see each other, he goes, you know that they're going to say this. And I said, yeah. He says, you know, I don't. It's not meant for you. It's not meant. It's not. When we're talking about the Lost weekend, he goes, it's not about us, but they're going to make it about us. And he said it to me, and I said, yeah, and I saw it. There are times how I don't read it because I know it's what he had to do. It's like when he said to me at the last phone conversation, I'm trying to figure a way where we can see each other, but, you know, she looks at every bill and everything I do. So I said, yeah. And I don't say anything else. I don't chase after him. And I always say to people, I said, you know, I'm not the one chasing him. He's the one that calls me. And if he's that happy, why is he talking to me? Anybody, whether it be male or female, especially even his male friends, if he no longer is your friend, he didn't call you. And I think, you know, we. We've seen enough of that. He just didn't talk to anybody.

[May Pang]

Yeah. It's interesting that he saw it as a necessity to maintain a certain front in his lifetime, which then got amped up after he left.

[John Lennon]

Yes. Because who's there to say that isn't true except things that I was involved in? And I only I can say that. It's, you know, because I'm sitting there and there's a lot of things that. Where people insert themselves in a place. I'm going, you weren't there. How did you get into this? And this is what goes on? And some of them are famous people and they've inserted themselves. And you're going, so I'm fighting a machine constantly.

[May Pang]

I would point out to anybody questioning is that your stories have stayed remarkably consistent for 50 years. You've not embellished, and you're the keeper of the receipts.

[John Lennon]

I try very hard because almost everything that people have come to me for different things, they've come to me because I'm the only one holding on to it. I'm the only one with the memory. People have been surprised to go, you didn't drink or take drugs. I said, I've had my sip of drinks. But if you're going to ask me did I want to drink, no, not really. I'll have a glass. But even now I think if you count maybe 10 glasses, maybe 20 glasses a year of something I don't, you know, even the doctors ask me, not really. I prefer to have a nice steak dinner if that's the case. Case or a nice outfit to wear than to drink.

[May Pang]

Somebody had to be the designated driver.

[John Lennon]

I was always the designated driver. And there was only one time that I had. I think it didn't take much for me to get drunk. I think I had a mimosa and I could feel myself going, oh. And somebody offered John something to. To drink. And he goes, oh, no, no, no. May's over here right now. She's feeling no pain. She goes, I'm going to take care of her. So I was like, okay. So it was good. It was all good.

[May Pang]

There's another thousand questions I can ask. But you're busy.

[John Lennon]

We could do that for part three.

[May Pang]

Oh, thank you. I will absolutely take you up on that. I was just going to ask for the benefit of everybody listening to this, that absolutely is making a point to tune in to a May paying conversation. It's frustrating to pay astronomical sums to get copies of your memoir. Will they ever be republished in any form that can make it more available to people that are seeking it out right now?

[John Lennon]

I don't intend to have it brought back. I wasn't happy because there were some things that the editors of the publishing world wanted to embellish and dealt with with my co author at the time. But even though I say never, never say never. You never know. I don't think at this time I am. And you know, it's such a world where it's more visual than it is reading and it would cost too much to bring it back. Although I know people have asked me along the way right Now I don't have any intentions of bringing it back.

[Ringo Starr]

John Lennon has few regrets about the low points in his life. To him, all of life is an.

[May Pang]

Experience, and growth comes from as much.

[Ringo Starr]

Out of sadness and madness as it.

[John Lennon]

Does out of pleasure.

[Ringo Starr]

The Troubadour was one of the great moments of my life. And when they write it in the little silly books of Hollywood that will finally be written, that'll be one of the little events, like Errol Flynn bit Frank Sinatra's mother at the party. I mean, it was a great night, actually, and it's unimportant only to the people that think it's important. I mean, there were some. Some good moments.

[May Pang]

Something about the Beatles created and hosted by Robert Rodriguez, executive producer Rick Way, title song performed by the Corgis Something about the Beatles is an evergreen podcast.

[Ringo Starr]

There was a period, and I can't put my finger on it, when I was trying and thinking so hard about the music that it wasn't spontaneous anymore. It didn't have any life in it. I'm not saying it went on for a long period, but I found myself treating it differently from the way I treated it all my life, which is just music. And I get into it and like it or don't like it. And I started looking at it too much as a quote unquote art form, even with the lyrics. And it was limiting what I could do. You know, I would say I'm not going to use that cliche. I'm not going to use that cliche musically or lyrically because of this, that and the other. And by the time I discussed it, I'd limited my whole range of composition about what I could use. I was becoming a musical snob, which I was always down on other people for being like that. You feel you're out of that motif? N. Yeah. Oh, definitely. No. How do you know? Because I can feel it in. In the music and my attitude to it. I can also feel, if you hear my new album, Walls and Bridges, out now on an Apple Capital, on an Apple Capital label in your local store. Yeah. I allowed myself to go in any direction I wanted. Meaning it's a sort of hodgepodge of different kinds of music. And some of it's very poppy, some of it. Of it's bluesy, and there's no limit to it. I have not limited myself by trying to say, oh, I've done that before, therefore I won't do it. This has been done by so and so artists, therefore I won't do it. It's not original. I've just gone back to making music that I like. All right, so you're not now involved with what you earlier termed a refinement and a re. Refinement. What then can be your new contributions to the musical culture? I think my greatest pleasure is writing a song. Words and lyrics that will last longer than a couple of years. And If I get one out of 20 or 30 songs that anybody could sing, from Frank Sinatra to Tiny Tim, then that's my greatest feeling, is to do one, a piece of work like that. And that happens rarely. And it happened in the case of the Beatles. Yes, we got a few out, and I've done a few myself since we split up. Songs that'll outlive me, probably, and that gives me my greatest pleasure. And therefore the musical style doesn't matter. The basic thing is still the song itself. And that's where I get my kicks. That's where you get your kicks? That's the whole of your life, the fullness. Well, no, no. I mean, there is. There is sex and fun, you know, but creatively, at the moment, it's still that feeling of always trying to make either the perfect record or the perfect song. And I know it's impossible, but that's the thing that keeps you going. I guess in sport it'd be the perfect play. Do you think you can ever be happy in marriage? The happy is a broad word. I don't think anybody can be totally happy in anything. I take happiness when it comes and the blues when it comes. And one of my old sort of sayings was, it's heaven and hell every day. And if I get a little light as well as the darkness, I'll go with that. It's taking me 35 years to work that out. You know, I'm 34 next week, or something like that. Marriage is no harder to be happy at than anything else. It's the same as life. So I don't really categorize it into marriage, career, or anything like that. If I'm happy, I'm happy either. Married, Unmarried. Hit record? No hit record.

[John Lennon]

The Helping Friendly podcast explores the music.

[May Pang]

And fan experience of Fish through interviews.

[John Lennon]

And deep dives on shows and tours.

[Ringo Starr]

For more than 10 years, we've created.

[John Lennon]

Insightful and fun discussions about our favorite band.

[May Pang]

And with the help of our guests and thematic series, we're still discovering new angles of appreciation for Fish.

[John Lennon]

And when the band is on tour.

[May Pang]

We provide a review of every show the following day.

[John Lennon]

As one of our listeners said, any Fish fans that enjoy Meandering conversations and incredible insight on new and old fish shows.

[May Pang]

This is for you.

[John Lennon]

Highly recommend. It's not just about the band and.

[May Pang]

The shows, it's about the journey getting there.

[John Lennon]

Throughout 2024, we're going to be running down the top 25 fish tours of.

[May Pang]

All time, and that'll be interspersed with.

[John Lennon]

Show reviews and regular episodes.

[May Pang]

Join us and check out the Helping Friendly podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[John Lennon]

Hi, I'm Christina Yurling Biro, host of the podcast Pop Culture Confidential. Join me as I go way behind the scenes with some of the most influential people in entertainment and media. Here, actors such as Succession's Brian Cox talk about his favorite characters to play. There always has to be a mystery.

[Ringo Starr]

The audience have to be in a.

[John Lennon]

Situation where they want to know what's going on. Meet studio execs like Pixar chief Pete Docter and learn his secret on how he makes us cry.

[May Pang]

Emotion is our first language, and so.

[John Lennon]

Many others who are defining popular culture, from Obama speech writer David Litt to Top Chef host Padma Lakshmi. We don't often think about food politically or we don't want to, but it really is. Join me Search for Pop Culture Confidential wherever you get your podcasts.