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Something About the Beatles
301: The Beatles' Bag of Tricks Volume 2 with Jack Petruzzelli and Cameron Greider
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- [00:02]
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- [01:00]
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- [01:28]
Cameron Grider
There Sometimes we travel the whole of Liverpool just to go to someone who knew a chord we didn't know. Remember once hearing about a bloke who knew B7? Now we knew E and we knew A. It was quite easy, but we didn't knew B7. We didn't know B7. That was kind of the missing part of the link, the other chord, the last chord. So on we got on the bus, trooped across Liverpool, changed a couple of buses, found this fella, he showed us B7. We learned it often, got back on the bus, went home to our mates and went zing. Got it.
- [02:18]
Robert Rodriguez
Hello and welcome to episode 301 of Something about the Beatles Podcast. Now you guys may recall back in summer of 2022, I had Jack Petrocelli and Cameron Grider on, and they'd been on before and they'd been on subsequently. But this was a particular standout show because it was titled Beatles Bag of Tricks and it basically gave a bit of an overview on a particular set of musical devices that they employed over and over again, in some cases into the solo years. And at this distance I haven't listened to it lately, so I don't remember the specifics about it, but I remember it including the descending thing apparently cribbed from Bach that they used in Songs like For no one specifically. I can't remember the other songs they used it in, but you hear it. I do remember it being in 6 o'clock that Paul wrote for Ringo for the Ringo album. Anyway, that was a particularly well received show and these guys are always great when they're on. But that one, I think people were being spoon fed music theory without it being off putting or in any way daunting. It's like you're learning these things and you're conditioning your ear now that it's pointed out to you to be able to pick up on it. It's like, oh, I know what they're doing there because I heard these guys talking about it. So now you know. Well, we wanted to return to that. Well, and in this instance we are focusing on sixth and third intervals and if that sounds like Sanskrit to you, it will not by the end of this conversation because Cameron and Jack are very adept music teachers, which is a good thing since they are 2/3 of the RPM school rpm-school.com which you may know from other visits they've had along with musicologist Walter Everett explaining various musical angles of particular songs or we did Sgt. Pepper guitars any number of things we've had on the show with these guys and this one is particularly focused on that. So consider it Bag of Tricks part two. And I'm sure there will be more in the future. Now this is a great way if you're new to the show to check out these guys and how they do their thing. It's also a good way to get some insight into the RPM school. They're getting ready to start up in April, a sergeant Pepper class. And earlier this year they had a Abbey Road class. Late last year they had a Let It Be album class which I was a speaker at. But we will all be together at Magical Mystery Camp coming up the last week of June. Tuesday the 24th through Friday the 27th. So the week before July 4th, the great opportunity, if anybody is traveling in the upstate New York area in advance of the July 4th holiday to swing by stop in. You can go to magical mystery camp.com to check out all that is going on those days accommodations as well. I will be there. Jerry Hammock will be there as authors of Ribbons of Rust, newly published in both the Regular and Monochromatic edition. And we'll be doing a presentation. There will also be your friend and mine, Ken Womack as well as Scott Friedman of the Deconstructing the Beatles series. But the headliners will be the fab Foe, that's Jack's Beatle band that have been around for years, including Will Lee, Jimmy Vivino, Rich Pagano and Frank Agnello. Top Flight Band. They're going to be there at Magical Mystery Camp, as well as Peter Asher, Joan Osborne and Steve Forbert, all doing talks on various aspects of Beatles. We'll be doing our Ribbons of Rust talk there. The thing to know is that if you are already a musician, bring whatever you got, because there's going to be a certain amount of participatory jamming going on during the course of this week. If you don't play an instrument but want to know about Beatles and learn some musical stuff, it is of course a great place to do that. If you just want to hang out in the beautiful Catskills at Big Indian New York, you can do that. Plenty of hiking opportunities, swimming, but just mostly just immersion in a musical environment. Just think of a cool Beatles camp that's really in the ballpark, but I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be a lot of fun. This is now, I believe, their third year of doing it. So once again, it is June 24th to June 27th, and you can go to magicalmysterycamp.com to get all the details about this, this year's Magical Mystery Camp, which is with guests including Peter Asher, Joan Osborne, Steve Forbert, Defab Foe, Ken Womack, Scott Freeman, Jerry Hammock and myself to get a taste of the kind of things that they do both in RPM School and at Magical Mystery Camp. I have Cameron and Jack doing Beatles Bag of Tricks, Two sixths and Thirds.
- [07:13]
Jack Petrocelli
Robert, thanks again for having us on. It's always a pleasure sharing the love of the Beatles and whatever we happen to know to continue with this quest of learning Beatle music through theory. But, you know, simple theory. We remind ourselves that none of these guys went to school for it. Neither did their heroes, their musical heroes. However, music is a language. So whether you go to school or not, you end up learning the tools of the trade one way or another. So a tool that we're going to explore today is the interval of the 6th. And in our class, in our RPM class over the course of the last few years, it's been really amazing to look at this music and just recognize how much they repeat themselves. But you wouldn't necessarily know it, but any musician does that in any sort of genre of music. But in rock and roll, I wouldn't say that your toolbox is a little bit smaller, but your creativity needs to be sharpened. And how to use this tool. Right. So we're talking about the interval of a six. I'm going to play a little audio game with you. You're going to name that tune. And these are all intervals of a six. Ready?
- [08:23]
Guest Speaker
All right.
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Jack Petrocelli
Right. It's kind of the NBC. That's a six. How about this? All six, right. That's Lenin. So the first one was McCartney, two of us. That was Lennon. How about this one? Your blues.
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Guest Speaker
Yeah.
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Jack Petrocelli
That's the lick and the break. Right. How about this one? Flying. Flying.
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Guest Speaker
Across the universe.
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Jack Petrocelli
Yes, across the universe. Right. These are all six. All right, now we get into sort of licks, not necessarily the theme of the tune based on a six, but kind of licks. I will. This is a tough one. But tell me if you got it.
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Guest Speaker
In my life.
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Jack Petrocelli
That's right.
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Ken Womack
Nice.
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Jack Petrocelli
Yeah. All right, here's another. Well, I'm going to give you a little hint on this one. Yeah. You can celebrate anything you want, Harrison. All six. All right, here's a lick. Tell me what solo this is from.
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Guest Speaker
All My Loving.
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Jack Petrocelli
All My Loving, right? Yeah. Okay, so these are all the interval of the sixth. And the interval of a sixth, that would be considered two notes of the triad of a major or minor triad. Right. It's a very musical interval. It's a very pleasing interval. However you use it, it could remind you of country and western. It can remind you of a bunch of things because it's definitely used in a lot of country in western. How the Beatles ended up using it, they probably heard it maybe through Johnny Burnett.
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Jerry Hammock
Can't forget that you told me so many promises and lies I'm going to try to forget these lonesome tears in.
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Guest Speaker
My eyes.
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Jack Petrocelli
They probably heard it maybe through Lonnie Donegan. They just heard it. It was just a common use of an interval. And how to get your licks on. Like, if I was going to play a blues per se, in G, I'll just give you an example. I'm gonna go kind of jazzy. Right. All right, now I'm just gonna play six for a solo. Here we go. All I did was just play intervals of the six, but without even playing the chords. You can hear the direction. You can hear the chords. Because I'm. Like I said earlier, those two notes outline the triad. So you're just missing one note. Right. But it comes in handy. I use it all the time. All the time. When it comes to soloing, I don't haven't based any songs necessarily on that, but I certainly have based themes on the 6th. And you find again, where. How the Beatles in certain times would rely on that. McCartney, Harrison and Lennon. I love where McCartney especially uses it in. In Mother Nature's Son at the end, where the second guitar goes.
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Guest Speaker
So with two other examples of that. Be something like Hot as Sun and Goodbye McCartney.
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Jerry Hammock
Picking 6D.
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Jack Petrocelli
Yeah, for sure. As soon as you hear it, you recognize, like, oh, that's a sixth. This is where it's used. This is where it's been used. Yeah, absolutely.
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Ken Womack
Jack, can you give a definition of a sixth or, like, a recipe for how to get a sixth out of just a regular major scale? How do we do this at home?
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Jack Petrocelli
So take overview. Think you should. But a sixth would be the sixth degree of the scale. So that's the definition of that interval of a sixth. How would you describe it? Is there a better way to describe it?
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Ken Womack
Yeah. And so you start from the first one. Well, I always go to Julie Andrews. Do Re, Mi, fa, so la, ti, do so do. If you think of that as 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Do la, do la. It's just taking those two notes that are that far apart.
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Jack Petrocelli
Yeah.
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Ken Womack
And then when you move one, the other moves with it, right?
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Jack Petrocelli
Yeah.
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Ken Womack
Like what you're doing on guitar.
- [15:49]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah. And this is probably something. We both do that when we teach and we try to teach people how to use 6. If we're in the key of, say, G. Right. Say. All right, well, take the open G string, per se, and play that scale vertically, going up the neck, meaning your.
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Ken Womack
Arms staying on the same string. Right.
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Jack Petrocelli
Staying on the same string. And you're going up the scale, up the neck. And then you put the six on top of that and you skip every other string. So now you have the G string and you have the high E string. And now staying within the key of G, the E. Next stepwise degree going up would be F sharp, G. So you start your G major scale on the E. And if you put both those strings together and you kind of immediately already hear every example that I was playing, you hear that interval and how it works, whether it's in Two of Us, whether it's in Dig a Pony, whether it's in All My Loving. You kind of get the gist of how that works.
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Guest Speaker
Yeah, it suggests a dozen songs.
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Ken Womack
It's interesting that these are all guitar examples, too. Right. I mean, it seems like the kind of thing that comes from guitar players sitting around going, what's that thing you're doing? What's that lick you're playing? Show me how to do that.
- [17:19]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah. But also piano players. I mean, Elton John certainly, in the way that he plays, uses a lot of six to ornament the chords and the passages to get from one chord to another. I don't have the piano in front of me. But a perfect example too, would be Jealous Guy, and that would be Nicky Hopkins on the second piano that does all those beautiful embellishments, ascending lines, those are sixth. So it's a very musical and it's a very pleasing interval that's used on all instruments. But, you know, we're focusing on the guitar here. If I give you an example, this is a great example of a song called Bluebonnet Rag. It's by Jimmy Bryant and Speedy West. And let me play this and then I'm going to show you how it's done on guitar. Simple little ditty melody, right? That's all six. I mean, that's like. Except for some of it, that's just a lick of bend six, outlining the chord. Six bridge, six thirds, six. You're going to make melody no matter what. If you start using six, you can't help it because, like I said, you're outlining the chord. So I think for Lenin to be sitting around and come up with that, it wasn't like he was sitting home and practicing his. Practice his scales. But musically, you can kind of hear that like he's in the key of D. This is something that's also interesting that we've spoken about, and this is something that both Cameron and I have learned, I guess, through studying some classical music or voice leading, is that naturally all of these rules, again, whether you're in school or not, your ear will follow because your ear, ear, regardless of having an education in school or just hearing an instrument, it's going to make more sense to your ear if it follows certain rules. And when I say rules, I don't mean rules that necessarily in school, but rules of. How do I describe it? Rules of just your ear in general. So when you have this large leap, what your ear wants to hear is making. When you have that, basically that's more almost an octave. When you have a jump like that, your ear immediately wants to hear it go down, wants to hear it. And when you hear that descending line, making that jump, 1, 2, 3, after you have three movements in the same direction, it's usually good practice to go in the opposite direction. And that's what you get with this note. Actually, that's not.
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Ken Womack
It fills in the gap, right?
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Jack Petrocelli
It fills in the gap, yeah, that's that's good.
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Ken Womack
You make a leap and it fills in this. I just realized that gap is actually a sixth too. Yeah.
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Jack Petrocelli
Oh, yeah.
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Ken Womack
It's our yodeling. Yodeling sixth interval.
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Jack Petrocelli
That's right.
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Ken Womack
Sixth upon sixth.
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Jack Petrocelli
Six upon six.
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Ken Womack
I can't believe I said sixth twice in a row.
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Jack Petrocelli
Say it 10 times fast.
- [21:40]
Ken Womack
Yeah. Never gonna happen.
- [21:41]
Jack Petrocelli
When we first started this class, it was our intention to have fun, get people to play these songs, but then also teach them a little theory along the way. With like, oh, well, the Beatles use these six. And this is how they use it. And if you practice your scales and then if you learn this exercise about ascend, that's pretty much what flying is. It's just descending in. In the C major scale with six, that's completely just going down the scale and you get here back up. Yeah. And then. And then, of course.
- [22:35]
Ken Womack
Great.
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Jack Petrocelli
When you talk about six, my favorite. What started early with she Loves yous. When the Beatles first started recording and they started using the six chord, George Martin was. I don't know if he was impressed or he was curious as to why the band would be using a chord that dates back. Became really popular in the 40s in big band music. It was just a way to end a song, you know, like also Twist and Shout, you know, the 6, 9 chord, which sounds so fresh. But I think George Martin heard that and thought it was outdated because it goes back at least 10 years before when that would be used in big band music. Maybe. I'd have to ask Walter, who couldn't be here tonight from rpm, but he might have the answer to how they came up with that voicing. I can't think how they came with the voicing at the end of she Loves you. Right, but.
- [23:35]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, yeah. You're talking about the yeah, yeah yeahs. Right, the harmonies. Yeah. My recollection anecdotally, is that it was George Harrison that suggested it and that George Martin, as you say, offered pushback. That's so corny. That's the Andrew Sisters. What do you want to do that for?
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Jerry Hammock
With a love like that, you know you should be glad yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Guest Speaker
And they won. It was like. Because we do. Because it's right.
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Jack Petrocelli
That's why that makes sense. Because it's George Harrison who sings the sixth at the end of that line. McCartney goes up here. Lennon goes here.
- [24:33]
Shopify Advertiser
Yeah.
- [24:34]
Jack Petrocelli
And Harrison goes.
- [24:35]
Jerry Hammock
Yeah.
- [24:37]
Jack Petrocelli
So you get. So it was always George that had the inside weird harmony. If you're singing Beatles songs, it's probably George's parts that are can be the trickiest because Paul's always on top, Lennon's always on the bottom, and Harrison is, for the most part, in the middle. He would find that line, that vocal line time and time again.
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Guest Speaker
Have you heard the rehearsal tape is one of the rare things we have pre. Let it be of them working at length in the studio where he's trying to get them through the harmonies. I think for yourself and you're struggling.
- [25:10]
Jerry Hammock
And go where you're going I only did it once take, you know Now I've got it in my bleeding mind.
- [25:16]
Cameron Grider
For remembering I will have a cop.
- [25:20]
Jerry Hammock
About the good things that we can.
- [25:23]
Cameron Grider
Have if we no play major can.
- [25:26]
Robert Rodriguez
Have.
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Jerry Hammock
Good things that we can have if we close our eyes Close our close.
- [25:39]
Cameron Grider
Just get closer that chord. Play that. Otherwise you.
- [26:09]
Jerry Hammock
We close our Close our eyes oh.
- [26:14]
Ken Womack
It doesn't matter what I Keep going.
- [26:15]
Cameron Grider
No, I've forgotten what I.
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Jerry Hammock
If we close all the good things we can have if we close our.
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Guest Speaker
Eyes okay, So I don't know musically if that's an example of some kind of strange harmony, but it's a George song, so it wouldn't surprise me if he came up with something that was not as tried and true as stuff they'd been doing to that point, that he came up with some weird Eastern influence thing.
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Jack Petrocelli
I'll have to listen to that again. But I do remember hearing that. And they're just all cracking up, too. They can't finish. I don't know if they were smoking marijuana at the time or what it was. But they just kept laughing as they were trying to do that. But, yeah, Harrison was that guy with all of those inside harmonies. And that's perfect example of she Loves you of him singing that sixth. If you're in a vocal band and you're singing that line that takes a little bit for you, not naturally, just to jump on a chord tone. Which would be the 1, 3 and 5, right? Or 3, 5, 1 as I'm playing it here. And interestingly enough, that voicing of that chord at the end does not have the third in it. It's the fifth, sixth, and the one on top. But the sixth and the fifth are a step apart. And that sounds very dissonant on its own. So if you're in a vocal group, you really have to watch that you don't sing the other person's note, you know, because it'd be easy to do.
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Ken Womack
But I never thought about that idea that George always being sort of the glue in the middle of the Harmony in between. He had to find a space to fit in there. Even if it was a note that wasn't in the chord. Right. He was nestled in between. Like in this example, when you think.
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Jack Petrocelli
About your favorite George harmonies, I know Yellow Submarine is one of mine. You can hear him. He's got this bizarre harmony that's like not where you think it should be. It's underneath. He does it. And also I think in the reprise of sergeant Pepper. Speaking of sergeant Pepper, one of the reasons that we're on your program here is just to tell people that we're doing our Sergeant Pepper semester beginning April 22nd for six weeks consecutively at 5:30pm we just finished, actually.
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Ken Womack
It's a short four week one, isn't it? Well, yeah, yeah, it's a quick one.
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Jack Petrocelli
Maybe it'll become six if we can't help ourselves.
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Ken Womack
Yeah, held over.
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Jack Petrocelli
But we just finished our Abbey Road semester. That was a long one. That was eight weeks. But that was great. We had a bunch of guests, including Jerry Hammock, did a wonderful presentation on sun king and mean Mr. Mustard. But yeah, that's what we're doing in the spring. There's a lot to explore in this music, as we keep finding out. But that's what I wanted to say about the sixth interval and how the Beatles had used that and just how it becomes handy no matter what style of music you're playing or what instrument.
- [29:05]
Guest Speaker
Now was this common currency in rock and roll at the time that they were absorbing it and learning to create it? Or does it go back to a farther tradition? You'd mentioned Andrew Sisters? Was it like a pop music trope that they picked up on just from their years as assimilating music prior to rock and roll? Or was it something that was exceptional when they applied it to rock and roll because it did come from more of a pop tradition?
- [29:29]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah, I think vocally it came from an older tradition, but it sounded fresh when they did it. And they incorporated it in rock and roll musically on the guitar. As we said, that came probably from just listening to Carl Perkins, listening to Johnny Burnett, listening to all of that heavy guitar oriented stuff that was happening.
- [29:48]
Guest Speaker
Sort of rockabilly sound.
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Jack Petrocelli
Yeah, definitely in that rockabilly sound.
- [29:52]
Guest Speaker
There is that story you read in all the Beatle bios that when they were in the Quarrymen days, they were learning their instruments still, that they found out there was some guy across town that knew how to play a B 7th and so they traveled by bus and then another bus to get to that guy to learn how to play that seventh. So to non guitar players and non musicians, is there something exceptional about a seventh that makes it more challenging or harder to figure out?
- [30:19]
Jack Petrocelli
That's a good question. And I think what you're referring to is what was the name of that guy? He lived across town. It was a diminished chord. It was a diminished chord that they got on the bus to go and learn. And I'm forgetting the fellow's name, but they called it that chord. Like when they came back, we learned the so and so chord, you know. Cause they traveled across town.
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Guest Speaker
Yeah.
- [30:42]
Jack Petrocelli
And that. Interestingly enough, that diminished chord. McCartney apparently wrote Michelle at a very young age. Didn't he write it, like, when he was in his teens?
- [30:51]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, yeah. That was his. When John was in art college, that was his hanging out, playing an impromptu, the Girl through this Frenchness.
- [30:59]
Jack Petrocelli
So I don't have my capo on, but that's where I think the first time the diminished chord is used. And it makes sense. That's. So the diminished chord gets used in Michelle. And when you. When you. When you learn a certain chord as what they had done, that came at a time when they probably just only knew three or four chords. Right. G, D, A, E. You know, you first learn your basic chords and then maybe you get into the seventh, you know, and the seventh is a very strong and powerful chord. I never take it for granted. Just when you learn simple chords of just how powerful they are, you know, and what. What they entice in you. And when you learn that B7, or as opposed to just a regular B, it's stronger because it's just begging for more resolution. Right. When you learn a diminished chord, I mean, that's very.
- [32:18]
Ken Womack
That's an expensive sounding chord.
- [32:19]
Jack Petrocelli
Expensive. And it's very sophisticated.
- [32:24]
Guest Speaker
Exactly the word.
- [32:26]
Jack Petrocelli
So that must have been a big day. That's why it goes down in history as something that it'll continue to be talked about.
- [32:34]
Ken Womack
Yeah. You gotta be willing to get on the bus to learn a new chord, Whether it's a B seventh or a B diminished. I think it was probably worth it. They got a lot out of both of those chords.
- [32:43]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, I think we've talked about it in the show before. But to recap for listeners that are new to the conversation, there was the talk of the Hendrix chord and we certainly used by the Beatles in a number of instances. Where does that fall in the scale of sixths and fifths and sevenths?
- [33:00]
Jack Petrocelli
So that would be a dominant chord. Again, if we're talking like B7 and you start Using that Hendrix chord, does that sound like Jimi Hendrix when I play that sound like. I guess a number of. Could be a number of things, right? But that was the Taxman Corps, too. That's where Taxman Corps gets used, you know, and if you remember, in the Get Back documentary, they're working on a specific song, and Harrison plays that song, and McCartney more or less says that chord is outdated now.
- [33:38]
Guest Speaker
Passe, man.
- [33:39]
Jack Petrocelli
Passe. Yeah, yeah, Right, right. We've used it way too many times. Or you can't. And that's always interesting and attached. I don't think that chord gets used on any song on Let It Be or Abbey Road.
- [33:51]
Guest Speaker
No, but initially it was the big intro to Get Back. It was gonna be that big splashing chord. And then they dropped the idea.
- [33:58]
Cameron Grider
Where did we get that chord? You know, there was a song. We got that chord.
- [34:00]
Jack Petrocelli
There's lots.
- [34:01]
Cameron Grider
There's lots. But there was one, you know, where we just. Booker T and M G's.
- [34:05]
Jerry Hammock
Booker T. But there's lots Gris.
- [34:09]
Cameron Grider
Passe, you know, like, it was. It was a couple of years ago.
- [34:12]
Jack Petrocelli
It wasn't.
- [34:13]
Cameron Grider
That's just a cord, like. I know, but, you know. Yeah, but cords fit things. But it's like drainage. Yeah, but some drainies. It's still drainage, but they suit different occasions. And ox bags. That's good enough for the rock and roll thing. But you need early clap. No, you don't. You need, like.
- [34:32]
Jerry Hammock
You need George Allison.
- [34:33]
Cameron Grider
You need George Harrison. Yeah, but just doing simple things until it should. It should go. Because now I'm trying to sing louder to get over the guitar now. Well, really, really, it should all sort of go, yeah, but. But you. If you do the offbeat with Ringo. Get Back.
- [34:55]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So certain chords. And as a guitar player, when you learn that chord, that's a big one, too. You learn that sharp nine chord, whether it's through Taxman or whether it's through a Hendrix song. And then there's. Speaking of chords, there's the augmented chord, you know, which finds its way in and out of certain Beatles songs. Obviously, you know.
- [35:23]
Jerry Hammock
Oh, darling.
- [35:25]
Jack Petrocelli
That opens up. Oh, darling. It's also the Lennon song. Whenever I. All I Gotta Do. That's an expensive chord, too, the augmented chord. And interestingly enough, too, is like, when you start learning those kind of chords, if you're a soloist, that opens up a whole other door when you start soloing over those chords. Because then all of a sudden, you start learning these scales. You start learning that scale, you start learning more about harmony and how to navigate your way around those chords. But speaking of chords, I think this might be a good segue because one of the other things we wanted to talk about is the three chord, the minor three chord. That comes up a lot in Lenin songs.
- [36:11]
Ken Womack
Yeah, we're talking about some tips and tricks here. I think the sixths is a great one. I did it again. What are the odds I'm never going to be able to say that word again right today for sure. And I knew there were a lot, but I didn't know there were so many. And you said it exactly right, that what they got out of that limited toolbox is a testament to creativity. And that is what happens in rock and roll, because you can't stray too far. Well, I mean, they, they brought in a lot of colors, jazzy chords like the chords that we're talking about, and managed to make them work in a pop context. But nevertheless, you are working under constraints, right? You're not playing jazz. You're dealing with the same few chords over and over again. And that is kind of what I want to talk about a little bit. There's a particular chord that John Lennon used a lot in his songwriting and especially in songs that have to do with sadness, lethargy, or other inward looking feelings. And it's called the minor three chord. And I'll talk about what that means and why it works for these kinds of moods. But first let's just hear what it sounds like. So the first thing I'm going to play is a non Beatles example, Petula Clark singing Downtown. Oh, and so you're going to listen for the minor 3 chord when her voice gets quiet on the words. How can you lose downtown?
- [37:28]
Jerry Hammock
Just listen to the music of the traffic in the city. Linger on the sidewalk where the neon signs are pretty. How can you lose? The lights are much brighter there. You can't forget all your troubles, Forget all your care. So go downtown.
- [37:49]
Ken Womack
So the band gets quiet, right? And her voice gets intimate. That's part of the mood there. But there's also a quality to that chord itself which helps to create this kind of mystery of that. And it sets up a contrast for when this big brassy chorus comes in right afterward. Now here's a typical example of a Lennon minor 3 chord from the first Beatles album. Listen for the chord when he sings. And it's my mind this is. There's a place, There's a place where.
- [38:19]
Jerry Hammock
I can go When I feel. When I feel blue and it's my mind and there's no time when I'm alone so there.
- [38:39]
Ken Womack
Even though the music doesn't get quiet there, that same chord, that minor three chord, has a kind of mysterious soft quality to it that fits that notion of retreating inward into one's own mind.
- [38:51]
Guest Speaker
That really begs a question of them as songwriters. What came first? Are they coming up with this melody that they're then trying to fit appropriate words to, or did they come up with a concept and idea about this introspective, as you say, inner looking thing? What would be the chord to underscore that? Because they, like so many other masterful songwriters, were able to pull that stuff together almost effortlessly, that the absolute appropriate musical backing to whatever the message was they were singing. And it just makes me wonder as they're sitting on the touring bus or wherever they are writing that song, how they intuited that as they're putting the song together. Yeah, it's like, oh, okay, you're going there, John. I think we should put this diminished second chord in here or something like that. That'll really underscore what you're saying. How did that work? Because it strikes us far less musically oriented people as pure genius. But if you're a practitioner, it's like another tool in the kit bag.
- [39:47]
Ken Womack
Yeah. To me it's both. You can understand everything there is to understand technically about these songs and still be left with the sense that there's an inexplicable genius behind them. Right. But at the same time, there is a limited toolkit. Like Jack was saying, there's not an infinite number of chords. So I think your use of the word intuition is apt. There's experimentation. There's an intuitive sense of the materials that you're working with. Like a palette of colors. Right. And then you just splash paint on the canvas. But it's informed by your craftsmanship of knowing how these chords work and knowing other songs that use the chords and so on. But maybe you'll start to develop your own sort of ideas of that as we go through. Because we're going to do a little bit of a survey of this chord in Lenin songs. But I just want to have some basic explanation of technically what it is. So it requires a tiny bit of music theory. I always feel when talking about music theory, like a doctor about to give someone a shot. But I'm going to try to make this as painless as possible. And I will call in, actually Paul McCartney, who, in the Rick Rubin documentary McCartney 321 gave what I think is the best beginner music theory lesson ever. So Check this out.
- [40:53]
Cameron Grider
I tell kids who want to learn the piano, I say, okay, here's you go. Start with middle C. We all know that as the first thing in a piano is. And then think about, like, the Eddie Cochrane thing. I said, well, that's. That's a chord. If you play those together. So you do that one space finger. One space finger. So there you go, the chord. I say, you know, we started there. And so you could kind of write a song with that. But if you just move this up one, it's the same shape. Yeah, you've got another chord. Now you got two chords. Chords. You move it up again. You got three chords, and move it up again, you got four chords. And then again you got five, and then now you've got six. You don't need more than that.
- [41:45]
Ken Womack
So what he's laid out is the chords that we just call 1, 2. Here's our 3 chord, 4, 5, and 6. So when you hear music theory, people talk about a I chord. It's really that simple. That's all it is. The I chord is the first chord in that series. The II chord is the second chord in the series. And here's our chord number three. Now, we call it the minor three, because there are in this group three major chords, 1, 4, and 5, which have this kind of bright, assertive sound. It has to do with the exact distance of some of the notes from each other. But these chords, 1, 4, and 5, are the major chords, and they do the heavy lifting in most classic rock and roll. And then the other three chords are minor chords, so they have a bit softer and darker kind of a sound. So two is minor, a three chord is minor, and the sixth chord is minor. So three major chords, three minor chords. Now, Paul is going to show us what you can do with these chords.
- [42:52]
Cameron Grider
So you can now put permutations of that. And you get songs, you know.
- [43:18]
Jack Petrocelli
And.
- [43:18]
Cameron Grider
It'S that same little shape. Yeah, but that shape is a marvelous shape.
- [43:25]
Jack Petrocelli
You can do anything with that shape.
- [43:29]
Ken Womack
So he starts with the I chord. That's kind of our home base. Everything returns, starts from and comes back to the one chord, usually. And then there's our minor three chord. And when he starts to sing the words, he's on the IV chord, which then drives to V. As very often happens, the four chords will go to the V chord. And he pauses on this five chord, which is one of the major chords, one of the rock chords. Super important because it has this need to go back to I, like. Jack was talking about resolution so you can pause there. But that can't be the end of the song, right? You'd be left with this tension. So it goes back to one, right? So this is just to say that these chords have roles. They do harmonic work, and they have sort of magnetic push and pull towards and away from each other. Even the other minor chords, aside from our III chord that we're talking about, like the II chord goes very nicely to 5, 1. Sorry, 2, 5, 1. And then the other minor chord, the VI chord, it gets used a lot in progressions like this classic doo wop progression, which is going to be 1, 6, which is minor. Then our 4, 5, 4 again, 4, 5. It's got to go back, right? All these chords kind of have work to do, except for the 3 chord. The 3 chord is almost kind of like a slacker amidst all these other very active chords, because it doesn't have any particularly strong pull towards another chord or away from another chord. It can move around, but it just has a tendency to kind of sit there. It's in between the one and the five chord, and it. It shares two notes with each of them. And that seems to kind of deflate any tension that could possibly be happening there musically. The tension that exists between five and one. So it's a bit inert. But that's not to say that it is not a useful part of this palette that Paul McCartney has laid out for us. And in fact, it can be useful precisely because of this strangely passive quality, in addition to being a minor chord, having the mystery that all minor chords have. And we're going to see that John Lennon would use this color very frequently in his songwriting, and especially to accompany lyrics that express sadness, shyness, dreaminess, doubt, or other inward looking emotions. I'll play for you a little bit of A hard day's night, which obviously is about being out in the world, hectic, working too hard, and longing for the comforts of home, sleep, and other comforts. And notice how these major chords give way to our minor 3 chord when we move from the A section into the bridge on the word home.
- [46:20]
Jerry Hammock
So why I let you down? Cause when I get you alone, you know I feel okay When I'm home Everything seems to be right When I'm home Feeling you are holding me tight Tight it's been a holiday tonight.
- [46:46]
Ken Womack
The mood of that chord is a little undercut by the insanely loud cowbell that comes in there, I have to say. But still, you can feel that it's going to a different place. It has a Different energy from all those major chords. And it fits well with this notion of retreating into the home. Right. And then from the same record, in I'll Cry Instead, Lennon sings. I've got a chip on my shoulder that's bigger than my feet I can't talk to people that I meet if I could see you now I'd try to make you sad somehow But I can't so I'll cry instead so it's like this anger he's got no outlet for, and it turns inward towards sadness. And then when the bridge comes in, the lyrics become even more inward as he sings about being shy. And the music again shifts from these sort of tough guy rock major chords to our minor 3 chord again when he sings. I don't want to cry when there's people there I got a chip on.
- [47:34]
Jerry Hammock
My shoulder that's bigger than my feet I can't talk to people that I meet if I could see you now I try to make you sad somehow But I can't talk right instead don't wanna cry when there's people there I get shy when the stars stare I'm gonna lock myself away hey, but I'll come back again someday I wanna do.
- [48:04]
Ken Womack
You better hide all the girls Now Perhaps the most famous Lenin Depression song is Help, And Help features a Fairly prominent minor 3 chord. Listen to how it underscores the words. Younger than today and not so self assured.
- [48:22]
Jerry Hammock
When I was younger so much younger than today I never needed anybody's help in any way but now these days are gone I'm not so self assured Now I find a change of mind and open up the doors Help me if you can I'm feeling down.
- [48:45]
Ken Womack
So now we're in 1965. Nowhere man gives us another portrait of a character who's retreated into solitude. And again we have a bridge, or I guess a chorus that starts with the minor 3 chord.
- [49:13]
Jerry Hammock
The world is at your command.
- [49:22]
Guest Speaker
I.
- [49:22]
Ken Womack
Think the chord fits especially well with those kind of sighing background vocals. And actually, we have a similar effect on another song on the same record, Girl, which uses the minor third as its second chord in the chorus.
- [49:47]
Jerry Hammock
Girl, girl When I think of all the times I've tried so hard to.
- [49:56]
Ken Womack
Leave her okay, on Revolver, another very introspective tune. And we hear A minor 3 chord on the words. Leave me where I am.
- [50:13]
Jerry Hammock
Please please don't wait me no, don't shake me Leave me where I am I won't be sleeping.
- [50:30]
Ken Womack
And then jumping ahead to 1968, the White Album, our minor three chord is a natural fit for John's Lullaby Good Night as the second and fourth chords.
- [50:42]
Jerry Hammock
Now it's time to say good night Good night, sleep tight now when the sun turns out.
- [51:02]
Ken Womack
And I'll just do one more example of what I called our slacker chord, which by now must be exhausted from its labors. It's going to help to create the right atmosphere of introspection in the song across the Universe. And you'll hear it under the words rain into a paper cup and drifting through my open mind.
- [51:24]
Jerry Hammock
Words are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup they spill a wildly as they slick away across the universe Pools of sorrow, waves of joy Are drifting through my opened mind Possessing and caressing me.
- [51:53]
Ken Womack
So that's our Lenin Minor 3 chord. Hopefully people have the sound of it in their ears now. You know, maybe they'll hear it in other places. Maybe they can walk over the piano and do it themselves, with Paul McCartney showing the way. But as Jack said, there's math involved in theory, but it's simple math, you know, and it's math that you can hear. So even if someone like McCartney doesn't know the terminology, he sure as hell can hear it. And that's where we're trying to lead people towards with these classes, you know. So in the Pepper class, we'll teach people the tricks that you can derive from the Beatles and how to use that to understand the music better and to work on your own music.
- [52:28]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, it's so cool to recognize these patterns. I think that humans are instinctively drawn to connecting dots and patterns. And once you learn how to hear and observe a particular trick, that it becomes everywhere and you can appreciate the masterful use of these things. It just. It's incredible. Especially like we talked about how they enhance what is being sung.
- [52:54]
Ken Womack
Yeah. And I think that's a possible answer to your question in a way, because John Lennon, the Beatles musicians in general, go through this process of learning a trick and then starting to hear it everywhere. Oh, it's those sixths, you know, if you've just learned it, you're going to start to recognize it when you hear it in other places. And you'll get feedback about how you can use it in different contexts.
- [53:15]
Guest Speaker
Right. Wow. Do you see this pattern repeated in the solo years for each of them, These particular things that they made great use of during the Beatle years?
- [53:25]
Jack Petrocelli
Oh, yeah. If you look at. There's the three chord. The thing too, about this tune, and we've got into this before, like this chord progression is very reminiscent of both. Don't Let Me down and Sun King, it employs the same chords. Hold on, John, John, hold on it's gonna be. Hold on, Joke. But it's the opposite E. Hold on, it's gonna be all right Minor three, going to win the fight four, five, Right? So that's one, and then it's two minor. Whereas in Don't Let Me down, it's the opposite. It's two minor. Don't Let Me down two minor. Don't Let me down to one, Right. Or.
- [54:54]
Ken Womack
But yeah, it's hollow on. Yoko is literally him going up 1, 2, 3, 4. Just like Paul McCartney in that little demo.
- [55:01]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah, yeah.
- [55:02]
Ken Womack
That's crazy.
- [55:03]
Jack Petrocelli
And, yeah, again, it's these guys. Their toolbox wasn't the same toolbox as a lot of other composers and musicians, but they had the right tools for the right job, man. They knew how to use those tools. It's like, unless you study this music, you don't necessarily get like, wow, they're just repeating those chords, you know, Just repeating like Hard Day's Night and Cry instead. Same record, you know, That's a great record. Lennon has a lot of key compositions on that album, and yet he's not coming up with something. You wouldn't know it. I mean, each song is unique to itself. But he's sitting there with a guitar and he's like, oh, what can I do? And he's kind of relying on the same formul, you know, and the same thing is like 1, 3. Right?
- [56:07]
Ken Womack
Yeah. That's another example. Right.
- [56:11]
Jack Petrocelli
You know, it's like he just uses it again and again, but you don't get tired of it.
- [56:16]
Ken Womack
Well, it's funny you say Hard Day's Night, because Hard Day's Night I went through and counted. Hard Day's Night has the most minor three chords of any album. Yeah. Well, seven songs that John supposedly wrote that use it. Paul has two, but that's with an asterisk, because one of them is and I Love Her. And supposedly John wrote the bridge to that, which is where the minor three chord is. So that would give. That would give John eight to Paul's I minor III chord. He really liked that chord, especially in that period.
- [56:48]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah.
- [56:49]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, I guess it wasn't passe, man.
- [56:51]
Ken Womack
Yeah, exactly.
- [56:53]
Jack Petrocelli
And I think if he was still alive, he'd still be using that minor III chord, right? Most likely. Most likely. But, yeah, there's our little lesson for the day in theory with Beatles, you.
- [57:04]
Ken Womack
Know, I just want to mention, too, that we're teaching another class. This is our second songwriting class that we're going to do also starting in April, and it's going to be based on 50s rock and roll writers like Doc Pomas, you know, Chuck Berry, all of these great writers. And a lot of these tricks are in place already. It's a lot of the stuff that the Beatles drew from. So we're going to help people through the process of writing songs using this toolbox. And also, a really great thing about this course is that Fredie Johnston, a wonderful singer songwriter, is going to be teaching it with me and Jack, and the students are going to rotate through the three of us. So it'll be two weeks with me, two weeks with Jack, two weeks with Freedy, and we'll be using some minor three chords.
- [57:48]
Jack Petrocelli
We'll be employing that minor three chord and some sixths.
- [57:52]
Guest Speaker
Wow.
- [57:53]
Ken Womack
Yeah, yeah.
- [57:55]
Guest Speaker
Can you think of a misuse of these chords where you listen to this record, you think, oh, that doesn't fit there. That's not a good idea. You know, absent George Martin and she Loves yous. Can you think of any example where a less skilled artist might be applying this and it just doesn't work?
- [58:11]
Ken Womack
I can think of some examples of, again, John Lennon's use of it, which sounds a little bit stock. Like there's a song that he referred to as a throwaway, written to order for George. Do you want to know a secret now, that wasn't the throwaway. There's another one, but same thing. Like there's a couple of.
- [58:27]
Guest Speaker
I'm happy just to dance.
- [58:29]
Ken Womack
Yes. Yeah, right. There's a few that are very stock with this kind in a way that doesn't sound particularly motivated by the lyrics. It sounds a little bit like just using a device. I wouldn't say it's inappropriate, but craftsmanship, there's nothing special about it.
- [58:48]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah, I hear what you're saying, though, Robert, because this minor three chord, you know, without getting too carried away, in theory, and one of the reasons why it works and why I think Cameron calls it a slacker chord, is because it shares. It shares. If we're in the key of G, there's the I chord and then the three chord. Both of those chords share two notes, common tones. And what that means, and we find this a lot, is how you can substitute one chord for another. Right. Because if you go.
- [59:35]
Jerry Hammock
Is it my tree?
- [59:38]
Jack Petrocelli
It's just this one note, this D. So when you're writing songs per se, and you have a melody, you want to write chords to that melody. So if you know a little bit about how chords work, Then you know, like, oh, well, that's a D. So if I have a D note, I can obviously play a G chord. I can play a D chord and I can play a B minor chord because all those chords have that note, D. So this III chord becomes almost like a passing chord because you need it in some ways, but in other ways you don't like.
- [60:16]
Jerry Hammock
No one I think is in my tree.
- [60:21]
Jack Petrocelli
But if I go, no one I think is in my tree, you can kind of hear how it changes color, it changes the mood of the song. Right, but that's an option. If I'm going to use the other chord I said that you could use would be the D chord. What does that sound like?
- [60:47]
Jerry Hammock
No one I think is in my tree.
- [60:51]
Jack Petrocelli
You can hear it. All three of those versions work. Now we're going to say, obviously the one with the B minor works, because we're so used to hearing that. But also that minor chord definitely employs a certain emotion that we get all along, you know, So I think maybe more novice songwriters would say, oh, I'm going to be kind of creative here, and I'm going to use that minor three chord somewhere because it's the same note. No example comes to mind. But I think when you're a novice songwriter and you first come across this knowledge, you may try to use it in a way that. To your behalf. Good. You should learn how to use it. But maybe it works not as well. So it's there to use or it's there to misuse.
- [61:38]
Guest Speaker
Right. You know, what you're making me think of right now just as sort of an adjacent topic is somebody as talented and insightful as Neil Ennis when he's tasked with coming up with a bunch of Beatle pastiches for the Ruddles Project. The guy must have possessed this command of the Beatles musicality, much like you guys do, that he was able to without. Except for maybe the obvious example of get up and Go, which was a bit too close to get back, but for the most part, come up with these songs that were the Ruddles that evoked the Beatles beautifully.
- [62:15]
Jack Petrocelli
That's a great, great example because that's one of the things that I walk away from too, with the Ruddles and just that music. I'm like, wow. Even though it's a parody, it's like they get it right, like, so let's listen to this. When we first met, there's the minor three, you know, but that's. I think if it was any other band, they might get sued for ripping off Help. But certainly Neil Ennis, he knew that. He's like, what is the formula of that song? And what makes that song, besides the rhythm and the instrumentation, sound like Help. And he's like. He nailed it right there. I'm gonna use that minor chord. There you go.
- [62:56]
Ken Womack
Yeah, yeah.
- [62:57]
Jack Petrocelli
And this is something that I learned when I was in the jingle world. When I was writing TV commercials. You would get handed a reference from the client, and they couldn't use the reference because it would. Either the artist wouldn't want them to use their song, or it would just cost too much money. So the client would say, just make it sound like that, but don't rip it off too close. And you think, all right, well, what is it about that song that will make people remember that song? And usually it's something to do with the chord progression first off that you might go to. Because if you start going towards the melody, then you stand to really plagiarize maybe a little too much. So it's rhythm. And then it would be a chord progression in the same way. It's like, if you take this. What song is that? That's something, right?
- [63:50]
Guest Speaker
Something.
- [63:50]
Jack Petrocelli
But didn't America use oh, I need you?
- [63:54]
Guest Speaker
Right.
- [63:57]
Jack Petrocelli
How many other bands use that? You can. You can totally get away with that. Just put a different melody and it's like, Harrison didn't invent that.
- [64:04]
Ken Womack
Can I hear that with a minor 3 instead of the major 7th? Ch.
- [64:14]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah.
- [64:15]
Ken Womack
Works.
- [64:17]
Jack Petrocelli
It works. It totally works. And there's a little bit more of emotion.
- [64:20]
Guest Speaker
Is that the Rain song?
- [64:22]
Jack Petrocelli
Wow. Wait, the Rain Song? Well, you know what? You got good ears, Robert, because it's the rain Song. So that's the one chord. That's the major seven chord. So. Yes, yes. If you're thinking of something. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
- [64:47]
Ken Womack
They're closely related.
- [64:48]
Guest Speaker
There's a story connected to that, which is that George, always free with throwing away his critiques of things, was saying about Zeppelin, you guys never play any ballads. And Jimmy heard that. It's like, how's this ballad for you? And wrote the rain song ripping off of something.
- [65:05]
Jack Petrocelli
Come on. Really? Wow.
- [65:06]
Ken Womack
There you go. Wow. Oh, and by the way, I should have known. But you were right about the throwaway for George was. I'm happy just to dance with you. Ah, yeah.
- [65:14]
Guest Speaker
Okay.
- [65:14]
Ken Womack
And that is one that has the same chord in it.
- [65:17]
Jack Petrocelli
Hold you tight. Yeah.
- [65:24]
Ken Womack
One, three, two.
- [65:27]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah, it sounds a little weaker there in that context. For sure.
- [65:31]
Ken Womack
Yeah.
- [65:31]
Guest Speaker
Jack, when you were deconstructing the commercial world and writing jingles, you completely reminded me of the Howard Kaelin story. You know what I'm talking about?
- [65:39]
Jack Petrocelli
Remind me again, please.
- [65:40]
Guest Speaker
It's White Whale, their record label, begging and putting the pressure on them. We need another happy together. We need another happy together. So they locked themselves up in a hotel room while they were on tour and just spent the weekend deconstructing Happy Together to come up with a song that would satisfy White Whale, but one that they knew would be so stupid that they would never use it. And that tune was Eleanor, with the most ridiculous lyrics ever. You're my pride and joy, et cetera, all that stuff.
- [66:07]
Jack Petrocelli
Oh, yeah.
- [66:07]
Guest Speaker
And so, yeah, here's your Happy Together. They gave it to White Whale. White Whale's like, oh, great. They thought it was going to be thrown back in their face for being idiotic. But no. And it had to be what you're describing, this process of deconstructing chords and what are the commonalities that we can then repurpose?
- [66:23]
Jack Petrocelli
I think we see that time and time again with, Certainly in the 60s, different pop bands. You know, we need to have that song again. I can think of a number of artists who had one hit and then they had that follow up, which is almost the same chord progression with a different story. You know, it's got that same feel. And sometimes it works in some. Like Eleanor. That's not a bad song at all.
- [66:42]
Guest Speaker
That's a great song. Yeah, absolutely. But you're thinking of Gary Puckett, where it was kind of the same song A Million different ways, or Classics 4. It just seemed like they had a string of things that were just variations of the initial hit.
- [66:56]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah. Sam Cooke's big hit, you Send Me, You Send Me. He came out with another one that was just like you Send Me, Part two, you know, with a different lyric.
- [67:05]
Guest Speaker
Basically wasn't standing in the shadows of love. Just reach out, I'll be there.
- [67:09]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [67:11]
Guest Speaker
That's the way Love Is. Is Grapevine Part two.
- [67:13]
Jack Petrocelli
Yep. And this is a broader topic, but this gets into why some bands or some artists, when they have a very successful first record, the record company immediately, like, get back in the studio with the same people in the same way and do it again. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I think that's why Southmoore albums can be really difficult sometimes. You know, it's like you need something new, you need something fresh, as opposed to just repeating the same formula. But if we're going to go back to formulas, let's just look again about the Beatles and how these guys, as Songwriters would continue to use these formulas, but yet you wouldn't get sick of them. You just wouldn't think, oh, there's John Lennon using that same chord progression. You wouldn't. The depth of the songwriting, and I mean, that just says something about the human condition of songwriting. And somebody that's that tapped in that Lennon's not sitting around learning a bunch of new ch. You know, how can I embellish my songwriting? What new chords can I learn? I don't think Lennon ever used a diminished chord. I don't think I'm wrong about that. But probably was like, he doesn't have time for it. I think the most time that Lennon ever put into anything was when he was in India and he was hanging out with Donovan and he learned how to Travis pick. I mean, that's not necessarily easy, but I can see how that became a mantra. Cause, like, once you learn how to do that, you could probably just sit there all. All night and just like, wow, I can do that. And then I can go. I could just move the chords and my right hand. My fingers just do the same thing. Right? I mean, that was probably the most he probably ever worked at the guitar. But again, whether it's day in the life, whether it's Strawberry Fields, whether it's like, Cry Instead, whether it's a Hard day, night, it's all very much rudimentary in the same. That's why I love when we get into looking at and analyzing this music. Because one thing I keep learning as I get older, and I'm doing this as a profession, don't make it difficult. You always see, like, even with the Beatles, as brilliant as they were, you would think brilliance somehow is defined by knowing a lot. And of course that is. But there's also simplicity and brilliance. And I think in any pop band, that's why it attracts everybody through the ages, at whatever age. And it always will because it's simple. And I don't think. I think. It's not like the Beatles didn't work hard. They worked very hard, But I think they also wanted it to be easy. There's no reason why it can't be easy. So even for folks that are just learning theory or don't know it, sometimes it's harder to explain than it is for somebody to finally get it. Because, like anything, whether you're going fishing or whether you're learning a major scale, it's just not handed to you. If you're going fishing, you're like, oh, okay, I got my fishing rod and I Got a worm and I got a hook and I. You know, you got to have all these things to make it work in the same way. Like. Well, I don't know if it's the same analogy, right, because you don't necessarily need to know anything about scales. And as long as you know how to tune a guitar, you can write a song, you know, if you hear it. And I. I think there's a lot of great musicians that fall into that category and great artists, but for those of us that are kind of just learning how it's done, then you need to understand the language to some extent so we can communicate that. Just say, like, oh, you know, here's simple chords. You know, this is the one chord. That's the two chord. This is the three chord, four chord. And just as I was saying earlier, your ear wants these chords to go to a certain place, as Cameron had said, like, the four chord usually goes to the five chord. Right. I got all these songs going through my head. It's like, was it.
- [70:56]
Ken Womack
But this chord is a marvelous chord. Is it that one?
- [71:03]
Jack Petrocelli
Whatever. It's in the same way that your ear perceives melody and the shape of it. It works the same way pretty much with chords. Not 100% all the time, but for the most part, one chord usually follows the other, with variations here and there.
- [71:19]
Guest Speaker
Do you find it baffling that somebody is extremely knowledgeable with such a command of chords as George Harrison had, and certainly of pop music, that he walked right into the My Sweet Lord thing, He's so fine. Or do you think that he must have, on some level thought he had some kind of thing that would inoculate him against getting into trouble over it? That ended up not working.
- [71:42]
Jack Petrocelli
Personally, I think it was just a fluke. I think no matter what, when you're writing a song, it's very easy to go, oh, it sounds like such and such. If you're in a position where you think you get sued, maybe you give it more thought. But I guarantee you, almost every songwriter that's sitting down and beginning to write a song, there's different ways that that could happen. People that are songwriters that practice that craft on a daily basis, it's like being a writer and writing a book. You got to get however many thousands of words in a day just to keep your craft going. So it's the same as a songwriter. And I think the Beatles did that, obviously, in the first part of their career. It's like, we need to write a song today. You know, there's the jokes let's write a swimming pool. So that's what they were doing. They were writing. They were writing. And I think Harrison sitting around and writing My Sweet Lord, it may have occurred to him, but I'm not a judge in that. I can say, well, no, that's definitely ripoff. Because I think it came down to how many times that melody was repeated. And it just. It was almost as if you were pulling the lever on a slot machine.
- [72:42]
Ken Womack
Yeah. I mean, wasn't Ringo always writing other people's songs? They talk about how he would bring in a song and be like, I got a new one. They'd be like, oh, no, it's that. It's already a song.
- [72:50]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, it's a Jerry Lee Lewis B side, right?
- [72:54]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah. Yeah. I just took this online class, songwriting class with Brian Eno, which was amazing. And one of the things that he said, he goes, when you're writing a song, do not stop. He goes, if somebody says it sounds like this, it sounds like that. Just ignore it. Just finish it. Finish it. Right. Because I think the act and the art of being creative and writing is you want that initiative to not be interrupted. And that's why there's a lot of times when I work with songwriters and I'm producing somebody and somebody hands me a tape of their demo, there's always something so fresh about the idea, even though the idea needs to be developed. It's like, you don't want to lose what that initiative is because there's something very magical in that. And I think that's what we always get about Beatle music is like, all those songs are so magical and. And in my opinion, there's not one dud. I think that has to do with them working hard at it, but also letting their creativity go and not getting in the way. Stay out of the way is a good answer to that.
- [73:55]
Ken Womack
I don't know.
- [73:55]
Jack Petrocelli
I guess that was a roundabout way of answering whatever question that you asked, because I can't even remember the question that you asked. I just went on a rant.
- [74:02]
Guest Speaker
I was just wondering why somebody so musically knowledgeable couldn't recognize, at the end of the day, like John had the quote, well, he could have just changed one thing and they couldn't have touched him. Why didn't that occur to George? I know he had said that his original inspiration was the Edwin Hawkins recording of oh, Happy Day, which is a lot more evident, but, I mean, that's probably public domain. It's gospel, whatever. But I struggled for a long time to hear he's so fine. Because in my own head I thought, well, these are so dissimilar. But after a certain point it's like, okay, I get the structure, but that's kind of a silly thing. And of course there's the aspect of, well, it sold millions of records. Of course they're going to go after him and see what they could shake him down for. But in John's head at least, it's like George had to have known what he was doing. Why didn't he change it?
- [74:43]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah. And then when George was alive and the anniversary box set came out, he did change it, didn't he?
- [74:50]
Guest Speaker
Oh, you talked about the 30 year. Yeah, he did that version with Sam Brown. It's basically turned into a Dylan song.
- [74:56]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah, I don't know, we're not there. To me it's like, oh yeah, it sounds like she's so fine. Or it sounds like oh, Happy Day. In my opinion, I thought it was a stretch for him to really get sued over that. I think if you keep looking, you're going to come up with a lot of examples of where. And then it's just, I forget what the law is. But if it's repeated a certain amount of times, then you're plagiarized. That's it. You've crossed that line. If it was just once and it went somewhere else, it would have been totally fine.
- [75:23]
Guest Speaker
It's clearly a money making action that has nothing to do with creativity. It's not the same song. If he had written some kind of romantic teenage song using that coordinate arrangement, then obviously they have more of a case, you know, I think of Taxman and Start by the Jam, which obviously very similar grooves in George's lifetime they didn't touch them for because they're very different songs.
- [75:46]
Jack Petrocelli
And I think that's later on. Robin Tick, Robin Tick Tock. What's the guy's name he got sued for?
- [75:51]
Ken Womack
Florid Lyons. Robin Thicke.
- [75:53]
Guest Speaker
Oh, Robin Thicke. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Marvin Gaye thing.
- [75:55]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah, yeah. And I don't think that was about melody. I think that was just about a sonic groove.
- [76:00]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, he used a cowbell or something like that.
- [76:03]
Jack Petrocelli
Something like that, yeah, yeah. And who knows what's going to happen with AI and being able to like lift this three notes from that Beatles song and then put it with three notes from another song. When Nora Jones album came out, however many years ago that she had her first record, there was an article in New Yorker that record companies were trying to use a computer when they would find an artist a New artist that had a song, a bunch of songs. This computer was fed information that it could recognize the most prominent motifs in pop music. And if the computer recognized, like more than four or five popular motifs and the record company thought, oh, this is going to be a hit. And Nora Jones, I can't remember the name of her hit song, but don't know why. Don't know why. It has similarities to Resolution from Yesterday's one of them. Don't know why. It has certain things that are reminiscent of yesterday and it has certain things reminiscent of other songs. But that's common too, because there's only so many notes and you can be creative and say, well, I'm going to get around that. But then we get back to what we were talking about earlier. Your ear is not going to accept it. Your ear wants to hear certain resolutions in a certain way, whether it's with chords, whether it's with melody. So that doesn't mean, like you're going to always have to repeat melodies that have been used, but when you start putting certain combinations of notes together, if it's going to be a good melody, it's gonna pretty much follow a certain shape. And I think that's why Jesse Harris, who wrote a lot of those songs, is just a brilliant songwriter. He wasn't looking to cop anything from the Beatles in any way. You know, he just. I'm sure whether he realized it or not, afterwards he's like, oh, yeah, so that is the resolution from yesterday. It's like, good for me. Yeah, good for you is right.
- [77:48]
Guest Speaker
Yeah. It's such a strange thing and it's so arbitrary.
- [77:53]
Jack Petrocelli
Just getting back, I think we all started on this rampage here with just Neil Ennis and just the Ruddles and just like, boy, did he nail that. So, anyways, well, thanks for having us on again, just our plug. We're doing the sergeant Pepper seminar rpm you can find us online. And that's going to start on April 22nd. We're also doing the songwriting class with Fredie Johnson and that starts, I think, on April 8th.
- [78:19]
Ken Womack
Cameron the 7th. I think that one's Mondays. And the Sergeant Pepper class is going to be on Tuesday nights, 5:30 to 7 EST.
- [78:28]
Jack Petrocelli
And I just want to mention again, for those that don't know, and Robert, you're part of this as well, that the magical mystery camp is happening up at Full Moon Resort in Hudson Valley with Peter Asher, Joan Osborne, Steve Forbert, Robert Rodriguez, Jerry Hammock, Ken Womack, Scott Freeman, Walter Everett, rpm Fab Fo. Yeah, Fab Fo. Thank you very much. And the Fab Faux is the main band. So it's three days. Come up and make a vacation of it. There's great accommodations and good food. It's in a beautiful setting and magical mystery camp.
- [79:01]
Guest Speaker
It's four days, right. Tuesday through Friday it is four.
- [79:04]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah, yeah. Cause don't forget about breakfast on the fourth day. So this is our third year doing that, and we're really psyched that we got Peter Asher to be there. And for those that don't know, Bud Mishkin is gonna be our main inter. The guy that does the interviews Bud Mishkin with was. He was on New York 1. He's a journalist, so he's gonna be putting his best foot forward together with his research and his know how and all these great artists. And Toomes Dixon, my early rock and roll band. That coincides with your book, Music from 50. Was it 54 to 63? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the band that I have with Rich Pagano from the Fab Foe Toombs Dixon, is all about that. That's the music and the time period that we focus on. So they're gonna be there as well.
- [79:46]
Guest Speaker
Hand in Glove. Yes.
- [79:48]
Jack Petrocelli
And the Glove. Hand and Glove.
- [79:49]
Guest Speaker
Yeah. The soundtrack to our book.
- [79:51]
Jack Petrocelli
Right. I thought we were going down Yellow Submarine there. And Glovey's gonna be there. Well, yeah.
- [79:59]
Guest Speaker
Next year, bring out the Snapping Turks.
- [80:02]
Jack Petrocelli
So thanks again, everybody, for listening. I hope you enjoyed that. It wasn't too far over anybody's head.
- [80:08]
Guest Speaker
Nah, this is a lot of fun. I love this deconstruction stuff. And you guys are the masters.
- [80:12]
Jack Petrocelli
It's fun, especially once you start talking to us about it and we just start going on and it's like those doors just keep opening.
- [80:18]
Guest Speaker
Right.
- [80:18]
Jack Petrocelli
I love that. I love that.
- [80:20]
Ken Womack
Yeah. Thanks, Robert. This is a perfect place for us to chat about this stuff. And you're the perfect person to chat about it with.
- [80:40]
Jack Petrocelli
Okay, let me ask you about songwriting. How do you fellows. How do you know that? How do you fellas approach songwriting? Now, maybe this will be part of.
- [80:49]
Cameron Grider
A program where I may have Johnny Mercer and Sammy Khan and people who have been big, successful songwriting teams such as yourselves.
- [80:56]
Jack Petrocelli
How do you.
- [80:57]
Guest Speaker
How do you approach songwriting?
- [80:58]
Cameron Grider
We just got a very informal approach. We've got no formula at all, you know, for writing songs. We just do it as it happens. Sometimes John can write a line of a song. He can come up and say things like that. He could say that. He could just say that. He could just say that to me, and I could say, no, John and often I disagree with Paul and say, which has been done so many times it killed it. But then sometimes, you know, we have a real row and I say, listen here, John. I don't think that's right, but it depends, you know, sometimes there's a line that he does and then I do a line. Or sometimes John can write a whole song.
- [81:46]
Ken Womack
Can I?
- [81:47]
Cameron Grider
Yes, always. He's a wonder when he gets going. Sometimes I can even do that. You can't. I'm a bit of a club myself, but occasionally I can club that people.
- [81:58]
Jack Petrocelli
Want to meet and go to.
- [82:05]
Guest Speaker
Something about the Beatles created and hosted by Robert Rodriguez, executive producer Rick Way. Title song performed by the Corgis Something about the Beatles is an evergreen podcast.
- [82:29]
Cameron Grider
Once you start trying to find out chord patterns, you really sus what people are doing, you know, what musicians will do. And they really, you know, it's like, yeah, like old tunes, you know, they all. They had just a certain way of going and they hardly ever varied from it. I don't really know it, you know, my dad knows that, doesn't the. The great thing about a piano is, like, there it all is. There's all the music ever. That's it. You know, all this has ever been written is all there, you know.
- [83:04]
Jerry Hammock
Yeah.
- [83:29]
Cameron Grider
So you still basically only want.
- [83:32]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah, you know.
- [83:34]
Cameron Grider
Okay, so that's getting more complicated than the three. But it's still only used the same way, presumably.
- [83:40]
Jack Petrocelli
Yeah.
- [83:41]
Cameron Grider
And from there, you know, like, there's no. Unless you stop yourself, there's no stopping yourself. Yeah.
- [83:50]
Podcast Host
The Helping Friendly podcast explores the music and fan experience of Phish through interviews and deep dives on shows and tours. For more than 10 years, we've created insightful and fun discussions about our favorite band. And with the help of our guests guests and thematic series, we're still discovering new angles of appreciation for Fish. And when the band is on tour, we provide a review of every show the following day. As one of our listeners said, Any Fish fans that enjoy meandering conversations and incredible insight on new and old Fish shows? This is for you. Highly recommend. It's not just about the band and the shows. It's about the journey getting there. Throughout 2024, we're going to be running down the top 25 fish tours of all time. And that'll be interspersed with show reviews and regular episodes. Join us and check out the Helping Friendly podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
- [84:42]
Jack Petrocelli
Hey, what's up, you guys? This is Reed Mathis. I made a podcast called the Gifts of Improvising the Gifts of improvising that's coming out on Osiris. We talked to all your favorite improvisers. Natalie Cressman, Marco Benevento, Tom Hamill, Aaron.
- [84:56]
Jerry Hammock
Magner, Holly Bowling, Bill Kreutzman, and Jay Lane.
- [84:59]
Jack Petrocelli
So, what, you're doing a podcast? Yeah, doing a podcast.
- [85:03]
State Farm Advertiser
So don't fear if you hear a.
- [85:07]
Jack Petrocelli
Foreign sound to your ear. We need the gifts of improvising.