302: TeenSet and Rock Fan Magazines with Allison Bumsted

Summary

Podcast Summary: Something About the Beatles – Episode 302: TeenSet and Rock Fan Magazines with Allison Bumstead

Introduction

In Episode 302 of "Something About the Beatles," hosted by award-winning author Robert Rodriguez of Evergreen Podcasts, the discussion delves into the intricate world of teen fan magazines from the 1950s and 1960s, with a particular focus on TeenSet. Joined by guest Allison Bumstead, the episode explores how these publications, especially TeenSet, played a pivotal role in shaping rock journalism and influencing The Beatles' narrative.

Background on Teen Fan Magazines

Robert Rodriguez opens the conversation by highlighting the evolution of teen fan magazines, tracing their origins back to the mid-1950s. He notes that early magazines like Digg (1955) were primarily focused on popular culture, including music and Hollywood stars, but were divided into sections catering separately to boys and girls. This segmentation reflected the societal norms of the time, directing content based on gendered interests such as cars for boys and love advice for girls.

Focus on TeenSet Magazine

TeenSet, launched in 1964 by Capitol Records, emerges as a central subject of discussion. Originally starting as promotional issues focused on Capitol’s artists like The Beach Boys, TeenSet quickly evolved under the editorial leadership of Judith Sims. Rodriguez describes TeenSet as a "forerunner" in teen journalism, surpassing its contemporaries in depth and sophistication.

Role of Judith Sims

Judith Sims, the editor of TeenSet, is portrayed as a visionary who transformed the magazine into a serious publication that went beyond superficial fanfare. Allison Bumstead emphasizes Sims' critical role, stating, "TeenSet traces the evolution of rock journalism, starting from a time when there was no dedicated rock journalism to the period when it was just beginning to take shape." Sims was lauded for her ability to connect deeply with readers, often responding to their letters candidly and fostering a sense of community akin to a "slow-moving chat room."

TeenSet’s Relationship with The Beatles

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to exploring the symbiotic relationship between TeenSet and The Beatles. Rodriguez shares insights into how TeenSet provided an intimate portrayal of the band, featuring exclusive photos and in-depth articles that contributed to shaping The Beatles' public image. He recounts how Judith Sims was often present at key moments, including The Beatles' tours and recording sessions, allowing her to deliver firsthand accounts to her readers. For example, at [09:00], Rodriguez mentions, “She even does an obituary for Brian Epstein in the magazine,” highlighting the magazine's comprehensive coverage.

Shift in Teen Culture and Terminology

The conversation shifts to the evolving concept of "teen" during the 1960s. Allison Bumstead points out that TeenSet was instrumental in redefining what it meant to be a teenager, moving away from the simplistic and often dismissive term it had been in the past. At [11:08], Rodriguez cites an advertisement from TeenSet, saying, “Don't let the name fool you,” challenging the perception that teen magazines were trivial. This redefinition was crucial as teen culture became more intertwined with the burgeoning counterculture and rock movements.

Decline and Name Change of TeenSet

As the decade progressed, TeenSet began to grapple with changing readership and cultural dynamics. The magazine attempted to rebrand itself to stay relevant, ultimately leading to a name change toward the end of its run. Rodriguez explains that despite efforts to evolve, issues like Teen Screen and later Teen Beat could not sustain the unique position TeenSet had carved out. At [83:44], he observes, “They changed the name and it didn't seem to hurt it, but they just decided to pack it in,” attributing the decline to difficulties in maintaining advertiser support and resonating with a shifting audience.

Legacy and Impact: Shaping Rock Journalism

TeenSet's legacy is underscored by its pioneering role in rock journalism. By providing serious, in-depth coverage of bands like The Beatles and The Rolling Stones, it laid the groundwork for future publications like Rolling Stone. Rodriguez notes that TeenSet was "one of the first to document rock criticism," positioning it as a cornerstone in the history of music journalism. Additionally, the magazine's emphasis on female voices in a predominantly male-driven industry was groundbreaking, as highlighted by the contributions of editors like Judith Sims and Janie Milstead.

Conclusion

Episode 302 of "Something About the Beatles" offers an enlightening exploration of TeenSet and its critical role in the evolution of rock journalism. Through the expertise of Allison Bumstead and Robert Rodriguez's engaging narrative, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of how teen fan magazines not only reflected but also influenced the cultural landscape of the 1960s. The episode underscores the importance of recognizing these publications as valuable historical artifacts that contributed significantly to the legacy of The Beatles and the broader music industry.

Notable Quotes

• Robert Rodriguez [05:16]: "Teen fan magazines of the 50s and 60s, a legitimate, serious topic of exploration and study."

• Allison Bumstead [05:16]: "This is serious stuff. This is the roots of rock journalism."

• Robert Rodriguez [11:08]: “Don't let the name fool you. TeenSet will change its name later.”

• Allison Bumstead [07:28]: "She was just a powerhouse in the Beatles world and Beatles fans remember her."

• Robert Rodriguez [16:06]: "TeenSet is the backbone of your thesis, you picked something that started at one end of the 60s as a sort of teen literature."

• Allison Bumstead [80:52]: "They weren't trying to stoke a scandal. It was a conversation starter rather than a tabloidy."

Final Notes

For those interested in the detailed history and impact of TeenSet and other teen fan magazines, this episode provides a rich, nuanced discussion backed by extensive research and personal anecdotes from industry insiders. The episode not only celebrates the legacy of TeenSet but also calls attention to the preservation efforts needed to keep these magazines accessible for future generations.

Transcript

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[Robert Rodriguez]

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[Alison Bumstead]

Switching to H and R Block is easy.

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[Alison Bumstead]

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[Alison Bumstead]

Solid Jackson.

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[Robert Rodriguez]

Something.

[Alison Bumstead]

Magical mystery camp is an in person four day event in upstate New York. The guests this year Steve Forbert, Joan Osborne, a frequent collaborator with Jack and Peter Asher. Everybody knows as one half of Peter and Gordon. Those are your headlining guests and you've got other luminaries there as well, including yours truly and Jerry Hammack. Magical Mystery Camp.com for all the information, all the guests and the accommodations. So it's Catskills, right? So you have mountains, you got a lake. So there's Swimming, you can hang out. When you're not engaged in Beetle activities, you can easily make it part of a road trip and then visit Bethel or Woodstock or New York City. A beautiful location immersed in art and music and cool people. Check out the site and again, it is magical mystery camp dot com. This is the Week, Tuesday, June 24th through the 27th, the week before July 4th. Welcome to Sappy Episode 302 with my guest, Alison Bumstead. Been on the show a bunch of times and this is where we really get into her new book, her first book. There's going to be plenty more to come. You may remember, I think it was back in January we did a book launch event and you could see at least part of the video of that on the Ribbons of rust parading press YouTube channel. But in the meantime, I wanted to have a serious conversation about her book because I think it covers a great deal of ground that if you're widening the lens on your Beatles studies, obviously it's not just applicable to Beatles, although they're a big part of it and a big driver of it, but teen fan magazines of the 50s and 60s, a legitimate, serious topic of exploration and study. And unbelievable how she has taken this topic in plain sight and ran with it and done a fantastic job of parsing it out. What it all means. We're mostly going to be focused on the publications themselves rather than the community aspect of it. That might be another conversation, but in any event, here she is, my friend, Alison Bumstead.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Thank you, Robert, and thank you, everyone who's listening. I'm really excited to be here and really dive into this fascinating topic of teen fan magazines and the Beatles. I think everyone, I hope you like it because it's a passion of mine that brings me great joy. And I'm really happy to be here. Thank you all.

[Alison Bumstead]

And it's something that I think if you're just tuning into the show thinking, oh, God, is this gonna be like a lightweight discussion of people's flavors of the month or favorite color or that kind of thing? No, this is serious stuff. This is the roots of rock journalism. And I love the fact that she landed on TEENSET in particular, because that is one magazine that actually traces by virtue of starting in 64 and ending in 69, it traces the evolution of rock journalism. It started out at a point where there was no rock journalism. It ends at a point where it's just getting started and they're there the entire time. They had the great fortune of being run for most of that duration by an incredible editor, Judith Sims, who was exactly the right person at the right time to serve the readers before they even knew what they were looking for.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Absolutely.

[Alison Bumstead]

Is that a fair assessment?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, I was just going to say that. I love that. Thank you. One of the things that Robert, you mentioned, people might feel this might be a fluff piece or have a bunch of favorite colors, etc. That's definitely a mission conception because we're going to talk about recording in the studio with the Beatles. We're going to talk about Beatles on tour. We're going to talk about these really intimate situations that an amazing voice, Judith Sims, was in and then reports to her readers. So her readers and some of your listeners might have been them are going to see or hear about amazing photography that has shaped the Beatles narrative. Moments of communal aspects somewhat. And then also about all these really cool things to do with the Beatles that they might not realize that the Ting Pan magazines were a part of or that they were perpetuating. But it's going to be a heavy hitter. I agree. I hope people stay tuned and enjoy it.

[Alison Bumstead]

Yeah, absolutely. And it's something that people should know. The direct pipeline coming from Beatles organization to these fan magazines. Tony Barrow, the press officer for sure. Mel. Mostly people know him from the column he wrote in the Beatles Monthly. But there was time Neil Aspinall in, what was it? Sixteen magazine.

[Robert Rodriguez]

He was in sixteen, but Mal was also featured in Teens. That they both were right.

[Alison Bumstead]

Oh, there you go.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Okay, Neil. Or he went by Nell Aspinall in there. He did the Beatles and me in 16 for quite a while until 67. So this was 65 to 67 when it becomes the Monkeys and Me and obviously is not Neil anymore. Mal Evans is featured in Images in Teen Set as well as talked about. One of the things that I like to mention is the coolest thing I've ever seen is when I was talking to Ken Womack. He realized he had seen the name Judy Sims before because it was in Mal's diary. Right. That they hung out salty dog night together, et cetera. So there are so many cool things surrounding this and Beatles voices within and her relationship with Derek Taylor too. So huge. Yeah, that was huge. Especially I think later on in getting Beatles connections too. So she was just a powerhouse in the Beatles world and Beatles fans remember her. That's what's really important is the readers remember her as a present person. So I'm really looking forward to this.

[Alison Bumstead]

And if you needed any further sign of the validity of this stuff, just recognize as we Just brought up the Beatles organization kept a direct pipeline to these publications. They wanted to get their messaging out. They knew where to go.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, you know what? One thing that I wanted to mention was that there's some photos by Mark Weinstein in one of the teenset issues. I don't think Mark ever knew they were published. He sent them to Brian Epstein and they were sold at auction a few years back, the negatives. But they were in teenset, along with a fan article, and it says his name, but he says he sent them to Brian. Well, they ended up in Judy's hands.

[Alison Bumstead]

Wow.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And she even does an obituary for Brian in the magazine too. So those are things that are all Beatles focused. I mean, there's no denying that she was a devout Beatles fan. A critical one, but a devout one.

[Alison Bumstead]

And very well connected.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And very well connected because of her. Right. She just made friends where she went and she. Yeah, she made waves.

[Alison Bumstead]

She was a witness at the studio.

[Robert Rodriguez]

She was. She was. She was at EMI Studios, which we'll talk about and all kinds of amazing things. But she's definitely a voice that I'm happy her voice is getting out there. I know I'll be successful. When somebody tells me about who Judy Sims is, that's my day of, like absolute joy. I don't have to correct them. I'll be like, oh, really? That sounds cool. But I just think it's a shame that her name has not been present in the Beatles narrative.

[Alison Bumstead]

Well, lack of longevity may have something to do with that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, yeah, we talk about the, like, just the ephemeral aspect of a magazine in general.

[Alison Bumstead]

Well, I just meant that she didn't live to a ripe old age.

[Robert Rodriguez]

No, she died in 90. Is it 96, I think of cancer.

[Alison Bumstead]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is sad because it would have been nice for her to see her day.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I know I had to have her on the COVID That was my goal. I wanted it to look like a teen fan magazine, like the one that was drawn. There's a John Lennon one. So if anyone's curious what it's supposed to be, there's a John Lennon drawn one by Nancy Chester, their art director. And if Nancy Chester or Jacoba Atlas or anyone or Carol Gold hears this or anyone knows them, please tell them to get in contact with me.

[Alison Bumstead]

Fabulous cover.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Thank you. Go. Go.

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[Alison Bumstead]

You say in your subtitle, don't let the name fool you. How would people be fooled by teen magazines?

[Robert Rodriguez]

You know that subtitle actually comes from an ad taken out by teenset within Rolling Stone magazine. And part of it is the idea that a lot of people make an uninformed assumption that teen fan magazines don't have something of value in it, especially starting in the mid to late 60s. So it was a really cool ad. It was an issue, the November issue of 68, and it has Mick Jagger on the COVID and it just says, don't let the name fool you. TeenSet will change its name later. So that's part of the conversation. She actually talks about the word teen and what it means. But a lot of people automatically just dismiss the teen fan magazine as valueless without bothering to take a moment to look inside and see what it really said or says.

[Alison Bumstead]

Would you say that that same sort of judgment that was applied to this blanket dismissal of quote unquote, teen literature was equally applied to its readership?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Absolutely. There's no denying that female and male readers read the magazines, especially in the early to mid-60, well before rolling Stone existed. And this would be the only place you could find just a plethora and celebration of pop music. But the dismissal of teeny boppers as young female fans are often called, it's a pejorative term that's been established for a while by many scholars like Norma Coates, etc. But it goes hand in hand with Beatlemania, the way women have been depicted as screamers. So much so that first generation Beatles fans like Sylvia Sullivan put her caption about not being a screamer right on her really interesting memoir, Right on My Private Linen.

[Alison Bumstead]

Distancing herself.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, distancing herself. And she even talks about the idea that that was one of the first questions she was asked. Right. Was about screaming. And there's been that stereotype of female Beatle fans of the 1960s.

[Alison Bumstead]

Yes, a negative.

[Robert Rodriguez]

A negative portrayal. Yeah, definitely a negative portrayal. There's no denying it. And young female voices are often dismissed even today, but they definitely were on the show.

[Alison Bumstead]

We've done a lot of discussing of fans. We have had the aforementioned Sybio Sullivan, who characterized herself as a non screamer, as well as people proudly wearing that badge of screamers, Carol Tyler and Debbie Gendler. Debbie, who you cited in your article that's going to be published soon.

[Robert Rodriguez]

All of them.

[Alison Bumstead]

I Think, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And there's plenty of them. So it's really a separate discussion if we want to address the undervaluing and dismissal of the teenage screaming girl audience versus the teen lit. And we're here to discuss the teen lit. And that's something that you've done a fabulous job covering in your book, Teen Set.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Teen Set, Teen fan magazines and rap journalism. Don't let the name fool you.

[Alison Bumstead]

That's right. Okay, but what we're here to talk about is for sure, Teen Set specifically, but the blanket dismissal of teen literature. You're here to make the case for its value as this great resource hidden in plain sight.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Absolutely.

[Alison Bumstead]

And the way I see it, there's two things to study. The way it presented narratives that influenced the fandom for sure, in their perceptions of the artists that they covered. But also. And this, your mileage may vary depending on the publication, the richness of the content. And you certainly in landing on Teens Set as like the backbone of your thesis, you picked something that started at one end of the 60s as a sort of teen literature. It already. The teen fan magazines had existed going back to the 50s, as you state in your book. So it was sort of riding a wave that already existed, but paralleling the development. As we'll talk about the Beatles, of course, their growth as artists, it grew along with them. So that from late 1964, when it first began to, by 67, 68, it was a much richer, much more sophisticated thing that was actually sort of a precursor to rock journalism as we know it, in the sense that the 800 pound gorilla in the room has been Rolling Stone. They branded themselves as like, what our opinions have to say about what's good and what's not, that's what matters. And then you've got Cream, Crawdaddy, Circus, all these other magazines that also came along. But teenset is unique in that it's the one that was in business as the rock journalism sort of evolved and the way that this music was being written about evolved. So it is uniquely placed. You trace the development of Teen Set. You're also tracing the rise and foundation of rock journalism. Is that a fair assessment?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, absolutely. I'll give you a little rundown on the history of teen fan mags, which I do cover somewhat in the book, but I do cover even more, especially in regards to the Beatles, but just in general in an article that you've mentioned that will be out very soon, if not already. So let me just run down. So in 55, we have Digg. Digg is a really cool magazine, but it's kind of an odd one. And all of these are started by either large publishing houses or. And they're all run by men in the beginning. Let's wait till we get to the 60s and that will change a little, at least editorial wise, we should point out.

[Alison Bumstead]

And 55 is when they start, right?

[Robert Rodriguez]

The first dig. Yeah. 55, yes.

[Alison Bumstead]

So rock and roll as an idiom is only just starting to come out of the gate.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes. And that first issue, I don't actually have a physical copy. It's very difficult to have one. I know what it looks like. I've seen it. It came with a free little, like. What do we call them? Flexi.

[Alison Bumstead]

Oh, a record.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Really cool. Little 45. Yeah. A little flexi.

[Alison Bumstead]

One of what?

[Robert Rodriguez]

I don't remember exactly what's on it, but it does come with some kind of music, rock music on it. And it is a special issue of dig. When I say dig isn't quite like teen said in the 60s, it's true. But in the very beginning it did have a really unique music focus. But it was also divided, oddly, for certain pages for girls, certain pages for boys. So it doesn't really quite work because there's pages that aren't for, you know, doing the air quotes that are quite interesting. Unique, but it is really cool.

[Alison Bumstead]

Can you give examples of, like, what they would orient toward a male versus toward a female?

[Robert Rodriguez]

So maybe like some kind of advice, like love advice maybe to an extent, or piece on fandom that might be a little bit more fluffy for a girl or even something about cars for a boy. It just depends. I wouldn't be surprised because one of the publishers, Luke Hemsey, he actually comes into this picture, which is crazy, into the story, which is really cool. But he ran. Was it. I always get it wrong. I think it's Hot Rod magazine or Rod Racing, one of those 50s Rod Mags. Right. He would be known in the car world. Like, that's a name that. Sometimes I'm in this car world, especially because I'm near Austin and we have the Roundup and all of those cool car gigs. So that name actually rings a bell to some, which is really cool because then I can like, okay, let's talk about teen stuff. And usually that's not of their concern at the time anyways. But there would be stuff like that in. Along with rock and roll. Right. Because in the early days those went hand in hand. Right. The rods and the rock. Right.

[Alison Bumstead]

Well, especially once the beach Boys arrived.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, yeah. Especially. Yeah. Just to move forward, I want to move to 57. We get 16. Founded by three men and it originally had Elvis on the COVID And the first issue says an issue for smart girls. Right. So we start to see it being teen focused. There would have been female teenagers focused magazines in the late 40s, under 17. But that's something we'd call a teen lifestyle magazine. It's your future life, your memory chest, all of that. How to be, how to act and et cetera.

[Alison Bumstead]

Not celebrity oriented.

[Robert Rodriguez]

No, not celebrity oriented and not popular music. Now, will that magazine consider popular music in the 60s? Yes. This is where it gets a little tricky to talk about, as I found myself in a web sometimes when I was writing about it, because there will be a point in time where they all kind of COVID a little bit of everything. But that comes in the 60s and into the 70s, et cetera.

[Alison Bumstead]

So in the 50s, a lot of it was still Hollywood, right?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Well, yeah, A lot of the stars that would be covered would be musicians, but they'd also be actors. We still have that concept of performance. Right. As acceptable. This is well before that whole rock aesthetic comes in. When folk music and rock come together and all of a sudden you're not cool if you don't stand for something and you're a performer. Right.

[Alison Bumstead]

So like celebrities who made records weren't necessarily musicians. Like a Tab Hunter or something like that. A Cell Mineo.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes. You would have all those awesome 50s stars. That James Dean would be on one of the covers. You know, you'd have a bit of everything.

[Alison Bumstead]

Patience and prudence Way down by the.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Stream how sweet it will seem Once more Just to dream in the moonlight 16 wouldn't be specific to only music at first. Right. It has a little bit of that. And then 60s like David McCallum will be a big star. Bobby Rydell and Paul Blanket and Leslie Gore will show up in some of the earlier 60s ones, et cetera. All right, so we also get Date Book around this time too. But Date Book is definitely, like the name sounds a date book. It's not. I mean, it's not a calendar date book. I just mean it. It's definitely romance focused with headlines of like, how far should I go? And which is quite provocative for the time. Right. In late 50s and into the early 60s. Now date book's going to change. We'll talk about that a little bit later.

[Alison Bumstead]

They found religion.

[Robert Rodriguez]

They did. They found some rock and rollers who wanted to rebel and for all the right reasons. As Danny Fields Will say, was there.

[Alison Bumstead]

Come to Jesus moment?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes, it would be the come to Jesus moment. 64, Capitol decides to jump in. Now, there's some magazines that crop up around this time. Teen Life, Teen Screen. Yeah, Teen Screen would have been around. Now there's also, I argue that these magazines are really rooted in the Hollywood fan magazines, which also have an issue of reliability, of trust, etc. Dixie Jean Trainor, she's this fascinating woman that I found when spending time with a book about. It's called. It's Pierre Burton, I believe he was a Canadian host called voices from the 60s. And Dixie Dean Trainor's in it and it's. It has Ray Bradbury, an interview with Ray Bradbury, Interview with Malcolm X, an interview with the Catholic birth control taker, which I was like, wait a minute.

[Alison Bumstead]

Is this a teen magazine?

[Robert Rodriguez]

No, this is a book. But I want to tell you how I found her. So. Oh, and then it said interview with like a teen. I wish I had the book in front of me. I don't often talk about it, which is fascinating, but Teen Fan Magazine Queen or Teen Magazine Queen. And she gives interviews here in Esquire about how she would make up articles in the late 50s, early 60s. As long as they represented the stars, well, then no one would come after them right now things would change in.

[Alison Bumstead]

That they weren't necessarily truth based. But they were.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, they weren't necessarily truth based. They were fake interviews, et cetera. So there is a lot of lack of trust early on in these magazines. So it's understandable that some people might go, oh, it's a load of, you know, puff pieces. Yeah, puff pieces, et cetera. And not that there's not an element of that. That's not true. But in the mid-60s, something happens and we get a lot of cool stuff. And even in the early 60s, Gloria Stavers, who ran 16 by 59 and on possibly even before late 58, but I have conflicting dates on that. So who was the editor and well known in the world. We'll see pictures of her and Jim Morrison, et cetera. And she has photos and articles and she runs that magazine and makes it this really cool model that all the teen fan magazines seem to kind of gravitate towards by the mid-60s as more and more are arriving.

[Alison Bumstead]

We'd mentioned Teen set starting in 64 by Capitol Records.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Alison Bumstead]

And the first thing that pops into my head is they're a record label, they're in business to sell lots and lots of records. And Capitol, as we know handles the Beatles. But right out of the gate it's sort of Beach Boys oriented. The first thing I think of. Did any other record labels like Columbia, rca, there was a million more labels back in that day do something similar or was this very unique?

[Robert Rodriguez]

So this wasn't unique in the sense of the 1940s and 1950s. A lot of them, if they weren't in Cashbox or Billboard and trade papers, they had. Specifically, Capital had its own trade paper. I don't know to what extent the other record labels had that. I don't know the answer. But now I'm going to go spend my week to find it. But I know Capital did well, it's.

[Alison Bumstead]

Interesting to me because Capital was owned by emi by the 60s and Columbia was like the King. And once they uncovered how profitable rock and roll could be by the mid late 60s, they were just a machine. It would seem a natural thing to be promoting their artists through that kind of print publication. But it doesn't seem like they did that, did they?

[Robert Rodriguez]

This is a unique thing, is that for Capitol Records they actually did do this in the 40s and 50s. They had Capitol News, which I loved, and then it became, I think Capital Music News and then Music Views or Music Views and Music News and one of those orders. But they had Capital focused pieces that they sent out now in 1964 when they provided the promotional Beach Boys issue, which is a beautiful issue and it's a really cool issue. It is not gender focused. It is all about the Beach Boys in all aspects from recording to home life, etc.

[Alison Bumstead]

Is it essentially a Beach Boys one off or did they cover other acts in that issue as well?

[Robert Rodriguez]

That one is a one off. Is all Beach Boys focused. Because it came free if you bought a Beach Boys record in fall autumn of 64.

[Alison Bumstead]

Okay.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And now this isn't the teens that I care about or that is.

[Alison Bumstead]

It's the forerunner.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, it's the forerunner. There's two issues before teen set becomes more of what teenset. The one I focus on is. But There's 1 in 65 in the spring, summer of 65 that does again focus on Capital artists. They'll have like Bobby Rydell, Donna Lauren, et cetera, the Chad and Jeremy and others.

[Alison Bumstead]

Beatles.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, gosh. Are the Beatles in that one? I think they're mentioned in there, but they're not the focus. Once again, I think because the Beatles themselves are such a huge entity, Capital's putting their efforts into other artists.

[Alison Bumstead]

That's interesting. Okay.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes, it would be mentioned in that Second one, I believe. So I'll have to double check. You know, I go through these things all the time. And it's so hard to remember what is where at all the time. Because there's thousands of these magazines in my composition.

[Alison Bumstead]

Sure. But what you were describing is the nascent teen set as opposed to the teen set that most people to have any awareness of. Teen set at all, including myself, prior to meeting you, I had a few copies of Teens that. Simply because they had the Beatles on the COVID So we know full well that they embraced the Beatles. And we're going to get into that discussion.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, yes, they will.

[Alison Bumstead]

But it seems like they're kind of like nibbling around the edges at this point.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. The two first promotional issues are very focused on other Capital artists. Right. And it's strategic and it makes sense because again, the Beatles, they don't need that. They don't need that kind of promotion. Of course, I'm sure that they want to keep selling and moving stuff. But the Beach Boys, of course, it's 64 through 66. And then as much Beach Boys popularity as possible. Because that sound can't stay popular forever in the same way. Right. This is no disrespect to the sound. I do like it. But it is definitely of the era.

[Alison Bumstead]

Not once Jimmy arrives.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I know. Anyways, you're right. They actually talk about it in Cashbox and Billboard. There's different things about Capital taking out. Starting the two first issues, talking about volume one and volume two, and deciding to actually break into the fan market. I refer to all of those articles in the book. One of them is, like, capitals and they spell bantam wrong. Bantam Bonanza, which means. And it took me a while to think about it because of the spelling. Like small fowl.

[Alison Bumstead]

B A N, T A M. Chickens.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, but they spelled it wrong. And it's not like. It's not the book.

[Alison Bumstead]

Not Bantam paperbacks.

[Robert Rodriguez]

No, no. But it's spelled wrong. However, it's obvious that it meant like small chicken bonanza. Like, you know, the Bantams, small fowl. So they're going into this ravage Girls market, these little chickens, you know, market. And how wonderful to read that. Gosh, Sometimes I'm like, wow, don't judge. And it talks about it. Brown Meggs and others, Fred Rice, et cetera, are interviewed throughout and in these various publications talking about it. Because Brown Meggs would have been the president of Capital, right. Or the CEO or whatever title he had. And Fred Rice would have been the marketing and then, of course, you introduced me to Ken Mansfield before he passed. And I did ask him about it. He only remembered the two first issues, which actually solidified my argument that Capital, once they let it go, they actually let it go to. Let's go back to Mr. Lou Kimsey. So Lou Kimsey, the one from Digg, right. He had experience with it. So Capital said, look, we have these magazines that have been successful. And what they did with the Teen Set is actually you could join the Teen Set. That was the point of it.

[Alison Bumstead]

It was a club.

[Robert Rodriguez]

It was a club. And once you joined the club, you would get a letter. I have seen only two letters, so I don't know how extensive it is beyond my two letters that I've seen. And they promised free records and information on Capital Artists. So it was a ploy to not only advertise, but to get a mailing list. And what a brilliant way. And people joined the Teens Set. I think it was a dol. Right. It's a dollar. It only had two issues. So it was a dollar to join the club. I am assuming it was annually. I can't remember what it says on the tab.

[Alison Bumstead]

Perpetuity.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Anyways. But you could join those first two issues, and that's it. And they actually did follow through. They sent some stuff out. To what extent, I don't know, 100%, because I've only seen two letters. But it was a way to get over 20,000 mailing lists. @ least that's what Capital claims that they got in the beginning. Okay. Which is pretty cool and very, very smart now when they have realized it's successful. Because I believe with the second issue with the Donna, Lauren, Bobby Rydell, 1, Chad and Jeremy, I think it has the. Does it have the Beach Boys on the COVID I believe it does. I think if you bought a record, you got it free. But it was also on the stands for. I want to say it was 35 cents.

[Alison Bumstead]

That's what I was wondering if this is essentially a promotional item. If they were charging money for it, they weren't.

[Robert Rodriguez]

With the first one, you had to buy something, right? So it was gift. If you bought something like, you know, like Bailey's gives you cups at Christmas time. If you. You can't charge for those free items, but you can give them away free with the bottle of liquor or whatever. So coming back to Luke Hinsey, they reached out to him for whatever reason, who knows what. Because archives like this, they're few and far between as when things are seen as just one offs are ephemeral. So they reach out to Lukemzi, and for whatever reason, he accepts it under the Chemtex Corporation. And who is his secretary? But here comes in our star, Judy Sims. Ms. Judith Sims from Illinois, went to school in Iowa, had moved to LA after graduating. And for whatever reason, there's still some mysteries I'm still finding in all of this. And there always will be. I mean, there's still, what, how many books on the Beatles coming out every year? Right? There's always something that will come to us piece by piece. It just takes time. Anyways, so Judy Sims is the secretary here. She has an English degree. She had. Was a correspondent for her newspaper. Didn't ever have her own byline.

[Alison Bumstead]

When you say she was a secretary at Capital.

[Robert Rodriguez]

No, no, no. At Lou Kimsey's corporation. Whatever he did for this corporation. I can't remember what he did for this corporation. So he did publishing and whatnot. Okay, but he had already done Digg, right? And Hot Rod magazine. So he had this publishing background.

[Alison Bumstead]

Gotcha.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And so they took over Teenset. And he picked her because she was, you know, hanging out on the Strip and was really in. And LA is a perfect scene for all this. She was really into music. She had a literature background or English background and a bit of experience with her college paper. So he said, you like music, why don't you do it?

[Magazine Advertiser]

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[Robert Rodriguez]

Now, I have heard that Janie Milstead, now, she's an important player, too. She'll run Teen Screen for a while as an editor. She just won't have as much Freedom. She writes for teenset a lot, too. She claimed in an interview once that she was offered it first, but she was already at Teen Screen and didn't want to leave it. So she helped Judy advise Judy on some stuff, and they were really close, but Judy got the job, so she took over Teen Screen.

[Alison Bumstead]

That's an incredible blank check to give to somebody who's not particularly aspiring to be in that position.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Alison Bumstead]

And this is as Capital has washed their hands of it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes. Yeah. I mean, Capital did not care. I mean, they let go of it. There's no evidence. And that's why I said Kin Mansfield really conveyed my argument when he could only remember those two issues. And that's it.

[Alison Bumstead]

Ken Mansfield, we should point out to anybody who's unfamiliar or know the name and don't know who he was. He had started out as a folkie, but ended up as an executive at Capitol Records. He handled the Beatles as, like, US Manager or something of their tours, and then ultimately was tabbed to be US manager of Apple in 68 when they started that up. So total insider was on the rooftop and a good, dear friend.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, it's too bad he passed. But he was super, super kind, and that's all he remembered. That's it. He's like, no, I don't know. Judy didn't know her name. Didn't know that. And the only other evidence that there might have been some Capital influence was her ability to do certain things. But there's other things that say it might not have always been Capital that gave her access to stuff, but Capital. Because Capital's name stayed on the magazine until 68. Just very small fine print.

[Alison Bumstead]

Wow.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Although it wasn't Capital Focus after those two issues. I mean, it was open.

[Alison Bumstead]

Not at all. That's unimaginable today.

[Robert Rodriguez]

No. Yeah. There's so many things. Yeah. They let it go. I just. I think it's amazing they decided to. Instead of just going, okay, that was fun. We got some names. We're going to send promotional stuff and sell. They're like, you know what this is doing? Well, let's just let it go and see what happens. And eventually another company will pick it up. And I do think there were some controlling aspects that came out of that. But still, she pretty much had a blank check. She could write what she wanted to. Of course, to an extent. Right. Because Capital, same was still on it. I'm sure there could have been problems if she would have maybe reprinted certain articles. I don't think as much fuss would have been Made, but still, maybe then there would have been some reining in and replacements. But no, she didn't have it. Like for example, Teen Screen had. Although Janie Milstead was the executive editor, they had an operationals editor, you know, crew cut, 50s looking, not 50s age, but like, you know, 50s style.

[Alison Bumstead]

Yeah, yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And all of those magazines, even when Gloria controlled 16, she still had as well as others with Tiger Beat, there was always like Chuck Laufer or other people above them. Right. Who ultimately had the say. I think Gloria had a lot of power. Absolutely. But not at first.

[Alison Bumstead]

But Judith Sims, first of all, this person who did not aspire to this, what makes teenset compelling and drawing our interest today, in addition to the era that it spans as rock journalism is evolving, getting its legs and becoming what we know it to become, is the fact that she is an incredible connoisseur of music.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, she loves music. Loves music, even good music. I spoke to because Ben Fong Torres wrote for Teen Set and he was friends with Judy and when I spoke to.

[Alison Bumstead]

Is that where he got his start? Pre Rolling Stone was that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Don't think that's where he got his start. But it wasn't early days for him, you know, 69. He was writing for Teen Set, so it wasn't far off at the time. But he was so kind to blurb the book and give me time for interviews. But he even said, as Bumpstead notes, Sims had the most important qualification to oversee Teens Set. She loved music. So everyone I have spoken to has made that comment about how much she loved music. And it's evident, I mean, it's just palpable through the pages of the magazines, through the serious and the silly. It's just there and it's pretty incredible.

[Alison Bumstead]

So how hands on is she as she's assuming this position? And I don't mean hands on in terms of obviously she's directing the content, but in terms of if you're a reader of Teen Set, is she making her presence known pretty regularly?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh yes. All but one issue have a letter from the editor, an editorial section, etc, etc is what it's called. And she is just unbelievably candid with her readers. It's really cool because she speaks to everyone like she knows them in her pieces, especially when she's mad at them. She's mad at them.

[Alison Bumstead]

Mad at the Raiders?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Well, she's mad at some of the letters she gets when she's accused of being a liar. She also snap back and I love that about her and I think that other Readers did too, because they felt like they were in this very slow moving chat room.

[Alison Bumstead]

Now you're speaking to something big that we should not let slip by in terms of the value of teen magazines and what they gave to the consumers, which was this pre Internet, pre cyber world community. Virtual community, absolutely.

[Robert Rodriguez]

One of the things that is fascinating is that I think people even forget. Right. How accessible things are now and how they weren't then. If you wanted to. Actually, this segues into what I want to talk about so we don't have to note it. So in 1965, you want to read about Rolling Stones, you need to go to the teen magazines. Right. Teen fan magazine specifically. That's where it's going to be crowded. Exists in 66, February of 66. But one of the things is it's mimeographed in a basement and it's stapled together. It is not worldwide distributed. There aren't versions.

[Alison Bumstead]

It's like what we would consider a fanzine of a later era.

[Robert Rodriguez]

It's a fanzine. It's a fanzine. When I hear people like rattle off crawdaddy to me, like I've never heard it before, I always think, well, what crawdaddy are you speaking of? Are you speaking of the late 70s? The 70s Crawdaddy, where it is a glossy magazine and it really likes the mimeographed one. Yeah. Or are you speaking of Paul Williams in his basement when John Landau wants to write for him and tell her about how great he is? Right. Is that the era? Where are we at? But if you wanted to read about these things, this is where it was. Right. Even the Grateful Dead appeared in Teen Set before. That's because Judy loved music. We'll go back to that later. Well, before, you know, Rolling Stones. So this information that if you wanted to read about your favorite popular musician in whatever capacity, this is where you would turn to. Because the newspapers are only going to cover so much. Right. They'll have stuff, but it's not going to be in the same light. Written by the same type of fan. Right. Or written for a certain type of reader. So this is an excellent place to really indulge yourself in your fandom and learn some really cool things about fans that are true. So even I know we're going to talk about it. But like 16 magazine was an excellent place to read about all your favorite stars. Now, could you get like Photoplay or something like that where you might have pictures and information on stars? Yes, but this was focused on fandom and teenagehood. And then also popular music. Just a big celebration of popular music. Right. And the pages were filled with it, even if it wasn't always popular music specific. Usually who they're talking about had something to do with it. Or they were like David McCallum, he was very popular. That's where you could read about David McCallum, if you want to know, because he sure didn't like his fans. Well, a teen set. Yeah, early teen set and sixteen all. Yeah, yeah. So you would get stars too. But there was a lot of. So if you want to read about man from uncle, I mean you want to write a great article, go to the teen magazines, get that. Because David McAllen wasn't particularly a fan friendly person. But enough about him, sorry, I like to use him as an example. But all of those stars, The man from U.N.C.L.E.

[Magazine Advertiser]

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[Robert Rodriguez]

So what happens is that between 55 and 57 we start to see the development of teen fan magazines. By 59 into the early 60s, we start to see a formula by Gloria Stavers herself, like making this really neat individual formula. And then Teen Life and fifteen comes a little bit later and Teen World, some other magazines too mixed in there. And then 64, of course the Beatles arrive and something changes, something big changes. And that would be. Not only do we get 21 shot magazines, considering the Beatles. I know in the book something got messed up in the Hyphen it says 21, it should say 21 shot. So now I know magazines that are just beatles focused between 64 and 66 that are just, you know, one shot Beatles things, whether they're silly or fun or full of photos with my favorite ones, the talking pictures one, but all kinds of tidbits on the Beatles pictures, etc. And then of course, teen fan magazines actually start to grow, we start to get more. In 65 we get tiger beat. In 66 we get teen scoop. And in 67 we get one of the longer lasting ones like tiger beat. And 16, we get teen Beat. Right. Team becomes. And there's some others here and there too. Those are some of the big heavy hitters that come within that wave. And of course on the way, on our third phase, which I call the third phase, which would be the Monkeys. The Monkeys would bring in another huge wave of like a teen men magazine festival. Right.

[Podcast Host]

The Helping Friendly podcast explores the music and fan experience of Fish through interviews and deep dives on shows and tours. For more than 10 years, we've created insightful and fun discussions about our favorite band, and with the help of our guests and thematic series, we're still discovering new angles of appreciation for Fish. And when the band is on tour, we provide a review of every show the following day. As one of our listeners said, any Fish fans that enjoy meandering conversations and incredible insight on new and old Fish shows, this is for you. Highly recommend. It's not just about the band and the shows, it's about the journey getting there. Throughout 2024, we're going to be running down the top 25 fish tours of all time, and that'll be interspersed with show reviews and regular episodes. Join us and check out the Helping friendly podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Hey everyone, it's Chris Pandolfi inviting you to check out the new season of.

[Shopify Representative]

My podcast, Inside the Musician's Brain, with new episodes airing now.

[Alison Bumstead]

Hearing it in that room, these guys playing this thing and trying to figure out how to play this song was mind blowing.

[Magazine Advertiser]

It's so inspiring to know there's so.

[Alison Bumstead]

Much more to it than you ever thought, and it just opened another door. But when people find faith, because they.

[Shopify Representative]

Need to, in terms of just filling a void to feel better without actually being better, that's when it becomes a crutch, much like, you know, drugs and alcohol do.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Man, I don't have all the time in the world here if I want to be a professional bluegrass musician.

[Alison Bumstead]

I felt like I had to take.

[Robert Rodriguez]

A very, like, strategic approach, just trying to get rid of the barriers and figure out what those barriers were. The feelings still come, and I have.

[Shopify Representative]

To reckon with that, but I think I have better ways of moving forward and not being stuck, which I think.

[Podcast Host]

Was the killer for me.

[Alison Bumstead]

Catch all that and so much more on the new season of Inside the Musician's Brain. Well, it's interesting that the year the Monkees broke big, I mean, obviously they launched in 66, but 67 is like their year in terms of record sales.

[Robert Rodriguez]

My gosh, I could just reach behind me and grab magazine, especially 16. 16 loved the monkeys. Teamset covered the monkeys too, but 16 really loved it.

[Alison Bumstead]

It's the year Rolling Stone layouts.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, at the very end.

[Alison Bumstead]

Do you read that as any kind of reaction to the fame and sales of the Monkeys? Because they famously disdain the Monkeys to this day.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, yeah, we know what he thinks. I'm not intelligent enough to be on the show. Excuse me, I better leave in case John Winter comes by. All right. I mean, you said it I don't necessarily think that. I think a big part of that is the dismissal of rock and roll and Downbeat and other magazines. Now, Ralph J. Gleason, of course, if you're interested in Ralph J. Gleason, he wrote for Downbeat. I love him. Along with, like, Leonard Feather and Nat Hintoff and all the other jazzos. But Nat, too, but definitely Ralph was really big into rock and roll, too. And he helped Jan Winner, you know, develop this. But he had the experience. There's a great book by Don Armstrong on the lifetimes of Ralph J. Gleason. I think he'll come on soft copy this summer. So that's a really good book to check out. But. So there was a pushback to the anti rock rhetoric in magazines like Downbeat. And comments like, what is Buddy Rich says, you know, you got to be an idiot or something like that to like rock and roll. There's this great. I have the clip out somewhere. As much as I love Buddy Rich, I think he's amazing. But you have this big pushback because no magazines are covering it. A lot of the earlier music magazines like Etude and Stuff were really for, you know, music teachers or budding musicians. We have sing out people's songs, but that's more on the very far left side with Pete Seeger and folky. Political, political, very communist in its own way. Right. Which Pete Seeger. But I love all the information in those magazines. But it's just definitely a more positive, folky songs, you know, that you can sing together. You know, Pete Seeger is very into everyone singing together. And then you have magazines. Downbeat and Downbeat was a fantastic magazine from. What is it? 34 on. I always mix it. It might be 36 on 34 or 36 starts around there. I have it in the book. The correct date is in the book, y'all. It's been a while since I've talked about Downbeat. There's a great book on Downbeat by Matt Brennan, too, called When Genres Collide. It's about Downbeat and Rolling Stone. And that's where your answer will be. That's the book to check out. Because there definitely is that without reading that book. If you just spent some time with Downbeat, you would get that vibe. So there was nowhere else to really talk about rock and roll in a serious way, whatever that word. Serious means.

[Alison Bumstead]

Critically analytical.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Critically analytical as art. I have a problem with that word, of course. And I have a problem with how people treat teen magazines. But, you know, women weren't allowed to Write for Rolling Stone for quite a while or other magazines. So they were writing for the teen mags. And I think that's another going back to the. Don't let the name fool you and the pejorative dismissal of women. So many women wrote for teen mags and men especially in the beginning. But then women in the 60s really took over.

[Alison Bumstead]

So it's interesting that mid-60s, in the wake of the Beatles, where you see this second wind revolution in fan magazines just exploding. A number of them are deliberately evoking, directly evoking the teen audience in their names. Whether it's Teen Screen, Teen Life and then 1617. Teen Set is now lumbered with this name that they are outstripping content wise.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Can we go back to Judy to talk about that?

[Alison Bumstead]

It's Judy's turn.

[Robert Rodriguez]

It's Judy's turn. That topic is Chapter five. That is one thing, because Judy actually talks about this. But let me kind of talk about Judy's role with the magazine. So we can go into that question because that's a great question. But I feel like we still need to. I jumped out of Judy's role to talk about the 60s magazines. But going back to Judy, you asked me the question earlier about her connection. Was she present? Absolutely. Chapter four is about that. I'm not plugging a book or anything, y'all. I mean, it just really is about that. It just really is. God forbid for me. This is like my rock. She's become my rock hero. But she covered so many amazing things throughout her. Her tenure is just from 65 to 69. And then the magazine changes names. But that goes back to that word teen. We'll come back to it within the magazine though. She is one of the coolest things about it, and this is where Rolling Stone drives me nuts, is when people. Not Rolling Stone itself, but people talk about. You wanted to read about important, serious things, which I hate the word serious because. Serious to whom again, you needed to turn to Rolling Stone or wait for Rolling Stone or find a mimeo Captain Godaddy, which I have all of anyways. Not the physical ones. No, that would be quite difficult to find. So Judy Sims presence, she actually went around music scenes, Right. She lived in la, so she reports on the trip and the whiskey and clubs. And she talks about developers coming in and it fading. Right. Then she talks. She introduces the world to San Francisco to her readers. To San Francisco. She's not terribly far. I'm in Texas, so nothing's far. Right. It's all as close as it can Be she would hop in her bug and shoot down the freeway and get to San Francisco. She started reporting on the scene, arriving in San Francisco. Right. She was there, she was doing it. She's in pictures, right. And of course she's at Monterey Pop. And she has a 16 page spread in Monterey Pop with the fabulous Jim Marshall as the photographer as well as in San Francisco. She calls on him too, to do the same. Those pictures of like Grace and Janice kissing, getting close to looking like they're kissing. That's Teen Set and Judy Sims and Jim Marshall. Right, Jim.

[Alison Bumstead]

Jim Marshall who documented the Beatles at Candlestick, their final show.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, and he also, you know, the Rolling Stones tour for Life. I mean, he's such an amazing photographer. He had a documentary come out. He has a new. I think there's a new Grateful Dead book coming out. I'm hoping some of the teen stuff shows up in there. They were super helpful with the book and really helpful in helping me use some of the images within the book and stuff anyways. But she was omnipresent in this magazine. Not only did she have those beautiful editorials, for example, let's just start in 66. In 66, when on not far after John Lennon, of course, made those comments, she has the December 66 issue. And you have to remember that magazines come out about a month or a month and a half before their actual date. Right. And they take time to put together. She was invited on the Beatles tour, American leg in 66. And I shared with you one of the articles that she actually is on tour the whole time. We have photographic evidence, we have lots of evidence that she was there and she writes about it. But in her editorial column, she opens it up responding to the linen issue, saying, let it go. Who cares what religion is? There's freedom of speech, all of that. And she just outright not scolds, but lets people know how teens have stance. Really? Her stance. Right. Because not only is she doing these kind of editorials, but in the letters to the editor, she responds to them as well. And she puts in little clips and a lot of them were about that too. So she received a lot of letters on that and what John Lennon said, and she responds to that and shows differing opinions too. And this is throughout the whole magazine. She starts to write more and more for the magazine with her name on articles. I can assume she's written some of the pieces that I'm not quite sure because they don't have a name, but based off of her writing style, there's a good Chance I can say, well, that's probably Judy Sims. That's probably Janie Milstead, you know, but she's just. She's absolutely present. She's in pictures with the Beatles, with the Raiders, Right. Because they're really popular at the time. She throws events. Right. This is the coolest thing about the magazine is she has. And I talked to Van Dyke Parks about this and Richie Peray about the. She had a croquet party, her and Derek Taylor coming back to Derek Taylor through. And, you know, Frank Sapple was there. Some of the Beach Boys were there. Chad and Jeremy were there. Fang was there. Van Dyke Parks was there. That's. He's one I spoke to. And Buffalo Springfield was at a lot of places because she was Buffalo's biggest champion. She actually does a huge two by three poster of five different ones, but one of Buffalo, which. Where could you have found that? Right. She did all kinds of amazing profiles on Buffalo in addition to the events. She did ice skating. One you could see, like Neil Young ice skating. They did a scavenger hunt, and then they did a Go Play a Kite. And I think Buffalo was involved in most of those.

[Alison Bumstead]

That's an amazing pedigree. I mean, people that we revere as artists are in her pocket.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Absolutely. She was fun. Based on, you know, reading her and everyone I've spoken to about her, everyone remembers her. I will tell you this. There's a photo in the book by Malcolm Lubliner, and I called him to ask if I could use the photo, and it's of her and Frank zappa. And he's 91. Right. And I said, excuse me, Mr. Lubliner, I really would. You know, it's a nonprofit book. It's about teen set and Judy Sims. He goes, oh, Judy Sims. I remember her. And he saw the picture. He's like, oh, look, there's Judy. That's in Laurel Canyon. I remember taking that. He didn't remember the photo exactly. He wanted to see it. He's like, can you send me the photo? I said, yeah, but his name was stamped on the back. Right. Because she had such a huge collection that she actually saved. I was lucky to get my hands on a lot of it. And that was not one of the things I got, but one of the things I saw.

[Alison Bumstead]

Did he retain the rights to his work?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes, he does. Yes. Actually, this is why you won't see a lot of these things just published willy nilly on the Internet, especially not coming from me, because, you know, people know me, and I don't want to Upset any of my sources. So I don't just publish photos or put photos, even if I give them credit, unless they're, you know, in a non profit book, that's fine. And research, it's fine. But yeah, they retain their rights unless they work for the magazine directly. That's the one time then they don't have that opportunity.

[Alison Bumstead]

So you talked a little bit about Judy going on tour and therefore representing teenset with the Beatles in 66. Was that their first connection or was she already kind of somehow connected through Capitol and her sort of taking command of teenset the prior year?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Capitol didn't really again have much to do with it once they let it go.

[Alison Bumstead]

But it might have opened some doors if she wanted to pursue that.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I would think this is when it happened. Right, because of the timing. Right. In America, because she took over in 65. Right. So this, this makes sense that this would be the first opportunity she would have. But Capital probably opened that door. However, she was friends with Derek Taylor.

[Alison Bumstead]

Who by that time was not working for the Beatles. But he still knew them.

[Robert Rodriguez]

He was not. But he knew them.

[Alison Bumstead]

He was working for the Birds.

[Robert Rodriguez]

He was still in la. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Beach Boys. And I know she was close with Derek. I don't know how close. I just know that they were in contact and they helped each other out in the music world. Right. And I'm sure she helped represent some of his artists. Right. For help too. But I imagine Capital is what got her in to that, got her on the tour. And she actually talks about waiting to get on the tour to get in. And she needed her pass from Tony Barrow, her red pass, which I wish I imagined it would have been in the collection. But the person I bought the collection from, who I imagine kept some of it, sit that red pass wasn't in there. I would have loved to see it.

[Alison Bumstead]

Sure.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I'm sure one exists. But I would love to have her name on it anyways. So I know that she already knew who Tony Barra was and she was already in this connection, but I imagine that that was probably the, the connection to get on that tour. But no, she actually, in one of the teens that in her editorial column she actually announces when she. Or no, no, no, it's not in her editorial column. It's actually in that first 66 Beatles issue, the one with the Bobona photos on the COVID because she does a two part one. And they're such beautiful pieces because they really give you a lot of detail that a normal teen fan magazine wouldn't have the time for and probably wouldn't have the connection for the capital one is what really gave her that. The intimacy. That's a big thing. And because of her intimate nature and how lovely she was and bubbly and fun and excited about what she did, but also professional. She made friends and she got to use photos that no one else got to use. Even artists who wanted to use them from Bob Bonas and others. So those are really cool things about her. But she actually talks about when she found out she got to go on the tour or where she was getting to go on the tour about how she, you know, did a refrain yell. She's like, I wanted to throw chairs. And it's so fascinating to read her excitement because I felt it for her. Even though this happened so many years. When I picked up this magazine, this issue, if you can get a hold of it, is one of the more expensive ones. It's the December 66th one. I think this is not the main turning point for teams it but one that puts it on the map for Beatles fans for sure. Because the 67 January with Paul on the COVID Same photographer which you guys, if you you're not familiar, you do know probably Bob bonus work. He was a tour manager. He for Stones as well. He has the lost photographs of the Stones and the lost photographs of the Beatles.

[Alison Bumstead]

He took amazing stuff that I think there's probably a good number of fans who familiar with even if they don't own the books. But they were published after he died.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Well, they were by Larry Marion and Larry has sadly, he has just passed too. He was super awesome with helping me use this. He actually let me use them in the book. He said because Bob let Judy have them and it's about Judy and teens that you can use them.

[Alison Bumstead]

Nice.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And I said thank you. Yeah. Unfortunately he passed. But even if you don't know, you know, because that's how I knew it was the same thing years ago, I think when I got accepted into the Beatles program, my friend had given me the book this would have been in like 2011.

[Alison Bumstead]

Unseen archive.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, the lost photographs of the Beatles by Bob. She bought that for me, her and her husband Matt. And Heather is her name. She's awesome. And I remember this is when teenset was really on my radar. I was still writing about Wings and I was looking through that issue and I kept going, where have I seen these photos? I've seen these photos. And I went over to my shelf and sure enough, there they were. And I was like, oh, they're not lost. They're not lost. They were here. And they shaped somebody's idea, like intimate idea of them. There's Mal Evans in these photos and Neil Aspinall and, you know, Ringa Lounging. That's one of the pictures I have in the book. But I have a few cool ones from Bob. Ones of Judy interviewing Paul with the microphone in his face, etc. So just really cool pieces, you know, again, that picture's in teen set. So she is shown often, you know, smiling, having a good time. Not like posing like a fan, but just being present, being present.

[Alison Bumstead]

And you've shared with me and they've turned up in teens that some of the copies. I've got her talking about being there for the pepper sessions in 67.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Could you imagine being a fly on that wall, being Judy, take two.

[Alison Bumstead]

Yes, I know I must have come across her name because she wrote for Rolling Stone at some point.

[Robert Rodriguez]

She did, yeah. I remember I sent you an email, I said, what are you doing posting Judy Simster? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was about Happiness is a Warm Gun. I think that was the.

[Alison Bumstead]

Yeah, that's where I was gonna go with this. Is that she then in 68 is at the White Album sessions, at the sessions for Happiness the Warm Gun, which was September of 68. And I think that was published in disc, maybe.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. So she moonlighted for Echo Music Disc and Echo, I think that's what it's called. So just known as disc. Right. She did it in Hollywood and she did quite a lot, so people knew who she was too. And you know how I know people knew who she was? She got a fan mail and I've seen it. So people knew who she was and she's just absolutely very present. Talk about that EMI session. What an amazing opportunity. She. This is the one. This is the one time I say that she doesn't actually write her editorial column. One of her assistant editors write it. Sit. Because she's out of town. So there is one session. She goes to London. She has a London correspondent named Carol Gold. I don't want to miss any of these fantastic women. And by the way, if anyone wants to read about British women who did, you know, some similar stuff for large publications like Rave and fabulous. Later, fabulous 208. Kate Mossman has a great documentary. I'll put a link up on Instagram or somewhere on my site so people can see it. She has a great documentary on the women, including Maureen Cleave is included in that. Anyways, she goes to EMI and there's that Great picture. The Leslie Bryce photos. So we all know him from Beatles Monthly, right? Is that what's called Beatles? Anyways, you know there's four people sitting on the back wall and the lads are around the piano with the Peter Tork issue of Teens. That the yellow one on top of the piano. And I see that photo all the time circulating on the Internet.

[Alison Bumstead]

Teen sets pop up at other times in documented Beatle events.

[Robert Rodriguez]

You remember because I called you. I had a meltdown. Okay, so Robert and I have been friends for a little while. So when Peter Jackson. I'm turning red right now, I'm just. This is one of the most exciting conversations. I just love talking about it. Peter Jackson, when he delayed because of COVID the release of the get back documentary, his three part session, he did what was about five or six minute reel teaser in 2020. And I think it's like 4:21. Somewhere in there you see John and Yoko reading. I remember my. See now I remembered that number, the February 1969 issue with John on the COVID A really unique picture of John. Like, you know, I'm making movements no one can see.

[Alison Bumstead]

But you can look at the COVID It's uncanny, folks.

[Robert Rodriguez]

There you go. Give a good Scouse accent too. I lived in Liverpool, you know, I have to work on it still. Anyways, then reading it and I, I knew I was in the right spot. I was like, okay, I'm. I'm in the right place. I know they like to read. I know they like to read their headlines. I know they liked to read their different documents. So there's no, no surprise that they'd be reading something. But they were reading something. Teenset. Now, you commented earlier when I sent you the article. When she's an EMI for the sergeant Pepper recording, I think she's there in March because she's there for. She's leaving home. That's what she's there for. To hear or happens to hear that John remembered her. John was the only one when she walked in. And John was like, you're far from home, aren't you? Right? So he remembered her. She wasn't sure. And she goes, he remembered me. And she talks quite a bit about what they're doing, who's in the pictures. Like in that picture along the wall, it says it's Toni Barrow, her unknown. I don't know who that is. Maybe you do. And it said Cynthia Lennon. I didn't realize that was sin because the hair was so dark in that picture. I kept going, that is not who I thought it was in there, but I don't know who else it would have been because she did say in another article, in the same article, there was an unknown female there. That might have been her. Maybe she remembered Cynthia being there and that unknown woman was the one sitting there. So we'll have to look at this again. We'll analyze this photo later. I'm sure all your fans are like, I'm gonna do it before you. Hold on. Anyways, she talks about how they talk about a film and how they don't know what the plot is going to be in the film, but it's coming for a special, which obviously we know that will be a magical mystery tour coming based on this time. But she also talks about how fun the Beatles are. She even remembered that one of the Beatles wore this gold jacket when she met him last time. She just is showing her authority that I was there and present. Right? Not only is she pictured there, Debbie Gendler told me in an interview, and if anyone hasn't read Debbie's book, it's fantastic, please do read it. And she told me that she was always fascinated by how Judy could be so close to the Beatles. I spoke to one applescruff, Nancy Allen. They also. She remembered Judy, too. They remembered Judy, right? So because of that ability to be close with the Beatles. But one of the things that is in there that I really loved is that she actually talks about the tapes or she talks about a possibility of a concert. She said something about they made a joke about having just going out in front of 50,000 tape recorders and start recording. And she said, well, if a tour is coming, you would need 50,000 tape recorders on stage because this wouldn't be just a guitar, drum, bass, etc. So I loved that insight she was giving to her readers is that this is A lot is going on, and it's a different type of recording. It's not. Something's changing. And even in the magazine, there's an advertisement for changes are coming. And it has, you know, the four Beatles on it for sergeant Pepper. But I love that as she's acknowledging that something is different, that there's no way that they could go out and play this on stage. She makes this call before the rest.

[Alison Bumstead]

Of the world knew.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, before the rest of the world knew. And she does this a lot. There's actually teen magazines do this a lot. They have this beautiful insight to stuff that I think is just so fascinating. For example, the Monterey pop issue, the October 67 issue of Teens that has Mama Castle in the front. It's such a great one. The spread is mostly Jim Marshall photos with some Bruce McBroom. Bruce McBroom would work in film later and pretty well known there. But there's this article beyond the Monterey Pop spread, which is fantastic, that it's called the Beatles in Monterey. It doesn't have her name. It could be her. It could be Janie Milstead. I'm not quite sure who wrote it. It doesn't say. I don't want to be wrong and I don't know if I'll ever know. So we'll just say somebody said wrote it. Teens that wrote it could have been her, Nancy, her art director. But they talk about Monterey. And I want to read a small passage from that, if you don't mind. If you don't mind obliging me on this. Just like in the 66 article, when she's talking with George Harrison and he says that he's surprised. No, that Ike and Tina's record didn't do as well.

[Alison Bumstead]

Oh, river deep, mountain high.

[Robert Rodriguez]

She's like, I remember that. Yeah, river deep, mountain high. And she says, I remember that one specifically because I agreed with George. She's like, we talked about a lot of things, but I remember that specifically because I agreed with George. Why I didn't make it in the U.S. i don't know. And I just thought, gosh, what a fan. Not only a fan, but she knew her stuff.

[Magazine Advertiser]

This weekend is the biggest in pop music history. It's the Monterey International Pop Festival. Krla is there. DJs Reb Foster, Dick Moreland, Bill Slater, newsmen Jim Steck, John Land and Bill wood. Special Radio 3 Oz Observers Phil Proctor and John Carpenter. Stay tuned to KRLA for complete coverage of the Monterey International Pop festival. Listen as KRLA's Weekend Festival of hits salutes the Monterey Festival. Buffalo Spring.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Now at the Beatles at Monterey. It's such a great one. And it looks like it's Linda McCartney's photo that's being used for it here. It says, it is not just my opinion that none of this, and this is referring to the Monterey happening, this pop music or the festival would have happened had it not been for the Beatles. This is a fact. They didn't just lend their talents to music in general. They supplied motivation and incentive to others whose creativity was being strangled by the stagnant in quotes teen scene of the pre Beatle period. And what I really love about this is that the talk about the inspiration. This is a longer piece. This is a page and A half or so. But they instantly. They note something that we didn't know would necessarily be true, which would be that supplied motivation and incentive to not just then, not just to give them credit for a Monterey Pop Festival happening. Whether that's 100% true or not. This is how they felt. Right. And this is what the magazine felt. And a lot of the readers felt that way, too. It's expressed in a lot of letters. But just little did they know that there would be two different Beatles degrees existing. There would be thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of books. You just had one come out, right, on the Beatles. I have an article coming out and I focus on them, too. Like, I mean, it's just crazy how many people. There would be conferences dedicated to the Beatles. There would be festivals all over the world dedicated to the Beatles. There'd be academic conferences on top of that dedicated to the Beatles. That there would be this much. I don't know what documentary I was watching the other day. It popped up and I was like, I don't know this person who wrote this Beatles documentary. Like, it's just insane how much more is still coming out there. And a lot of it is fresh. Right. There's a lot of new takes. We're learning new things. We're coming at new angles, and they are just not stopping. And how powerful is that? I mean, that's one of the things I love about Teensa and the teen fan magazines, is that they really embraced the Beatles for what they knew they could possibly be. I know that that sounds a little nerdy, but it is so evident across the board when you review these articles.

[Alison Bumstead]

An early clue to the new direction.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Absolutely. I think these female writers, female fans, you know, they knew. You know. Right. Of course. Of course. The men knew, too.

[Alison Bumstead]

But that's a really beautiful way of summing up her insight and her finger on the pulse of this cultural landscape that is shifting beneath her feet, that she is staying on top of.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So the most interesting thing about that, Robert and I talk a lot about this in the book. So talk about something that was really hard to orchestrate. You're picking up a magazine that changes from 64 to 69 along with the musical and cultural landscape. Right. With everything coming in and the fact that the magazine wants to change its name because it doesn't feel representative of the time, etc. It was really, really difficult, really difficult to focus on all of those things while still putting it in context. And I'm still doing it. Right. The book is just the start. And it couldn't really be any longer because it would. Don't want, you know, a 7, 800 page book, right. So we. There's more to come. And I don't think I'll stop with it. There's just a plethora of information. But what I'd like to say is wrapped here musical and cultural landscape. All the teen magazines put their finger on some kind of pulse with this. 16 is really unique. And I would say Tiger Beat does this. All of the teen magazines do this. But teen set and that's. They go in a different direction. They. In. In the mid-60s, they're covering what would become part of the counterculture. They're covering the Stones. They'll cover and, you know, in 67, Moby Grape, they'll cover the Animals. They'll cover all of the bands that we think of as like, rock and roll. Something on Rolling Stone. These magazines were covering them. That's the place you would go. Now, by 66 through 67 and 68, something changes, obviously. We know a couple of things change in the book. I lay out the concept of rock aesthetics. The idea that folk ideology, your Dylan's and your Joan Baez, et cetera, is really steeped into the concept of rock and roll. And it becomes rock. Right. We're also dealing with the idea of what a teenager is. And Sims addresses this over and over again. It's the most interesting thing. You don't see any other editor going, hey, what do you think the name should be? I did see some magazines like Flip. I didn't mention Flip. Oh, Flip's been around. Flip actually does ask about the name. Do you like the name? What do you think? And one of their questionnaires. They all have questionnaires, but Judy actually goes into her column and talks about the word teen is changing and we don't feel like it represents us anymore. Yes, teen and rock and roll, those work together. But now the word teen is not synonymous with rock. Right. Like, that's changed so much.

[Alison Bumstead]

It's almost a pejorative in that it came.

[Robert Rodriguez]

It becomes. Yeah, teen becomes a pejorative lightweight in the 50s. It makes sense. Yeah. Because when you think of Elvis and rock and roll in the 50s, you think of teens, right? And that's where it all stems from. And that makes sense. But by the late 60s, it becomes pejorative, but so does the word pop. And that is very important in the book. I actually say this because I think it's so important to think about that in 69, if Monterey Pop would have happened instead of 67, I think it would have been called the Monterey Rock Festival because of all the connotations with the word. Right? Because rock and pop, the genres become very divided, especially partially because of how Rolling Stone talks about pop and rock. Pop is an okay term in the beginning of Rolling Stone, but then it becomes a pejorative term, especially by the time the Beatles break up when Wings comes around. And you know, I've talked about those in another article. That's what got me into all of this, is how the press reviewed Wings. I was just fascinated by it.

[Alison Bumstead]

Which side are you on?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, that's what the article's called. If anyone has trouble getting it, let me know. Anyways, all of this is changing. So we have the counterculture coming in, we have anti war movements, we have etc. Different scenes. Like she even goes and explores Boston to see if it's really a scene. It's not. Right.

[Alison Bumstead]

Hyped.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Not according to her definition, which she outlines what a scene is, which is really cool, because you don't see that. So she's just on the pulse because she's in it. She's not just an editor in an office showing up and doing her job like some of these crew cuts were in the mid-60s, or even controlling the magazine. She's going a different direction now. The other magazines don't go that direction. They go another direction, which I think is a super important cultural shift. They go the tween route, right? They start to shift. You see Sajit Khan, the Cow Sills. And later, of course, Donny Osmond.

[Alison Bumstead]

And Michael Jackson.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Michael Jackson. And Sean Cassidy.

[Alison Bumstead]

And David.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Not Sean. David. David. Okay, yeah, yeah, David Cassidy. Although I love their dad in Columbo. My favorite. One of my favorite Columbos next to Robert Colt. Anyways, that's my nerdy side coming out, y'all. I don't own Columbo's 1990s fanfiction. I didn't write it, but I do anyways. So that's all changing. Teen Set just happens to go continue forth in her direction, right? What she's interested in, because she doesn't have anyone telling her what to do. Not really. There's a little bit where she talks about when the new Regenstriner publisher takes over. And there is some oversight, especially with advertisements. Now, you have to remember 16 didn't have advertisements. They advertised fan clubs in their own items and other magazines did or didn't, depending on what they had. But it really just goes in their Own direction, something like Teen Screen, even run by Janie Milstead. She couldn't make it what she wanted because she had. His name is Shelley. I can't remember his full name. But over her, right, he finally let her write the letter to the editor and it got much bigger and much more interesting. But she would actually send out letters that were way more radical or interested in the Beatles than the magazine would actually let off to be. Not interested in the Beatle. I mean, they're the ones who give the Ringo Star kit and some other cool stuff out. But, yeah, so there's a lot changing. And that's when Rolling Stone comes in. It comes in at the right time. But what it cannot do is what t. Teenset did. Teenset shows you that shift. Because if Rolling Stone would have existed in 65, it just. It couldn't have because that shift hadn't quite happened. Right. It shows you the shift. And actually, teenset's one of the first to document rock criticism. Judy Sims writes, or she doesn't write it, I think. Gosh, is it Hopkins, Jerry Hopkins or Tom Nolan? Oh, it's one of the rock critics. They Both write for TeenSet. She brings some of them in towards the end, including John Mendelssohn, which all you Beatles fans know, for his pan of wildlife.

[Alison Bumstead]

And Abbey Road.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, and Abbey Road. And I talked to John, he remembered Judy and had nothing but wonderful things to say about her. So that was really cool that he gave me his time for that. I really appreciated that. But it just goes. She brings in an article about rock history or rock riding coming up and this new style coming. So she's telling people about it, but she also claps back to it because there's this wonderful article where they ask her. Or no. Where she's talking about how she just wants to do her own thing. Man, why do I have to be heavy and be pretentious and act like I know everything? Why can't I just be an interested and concerned fan? Why do I have to do this? And she calls it a feminine perspective. That's really hard to pin down, what a feminine perspective is. Obviously, I tried and I failed, so you can't.

[Alison Bumstead]

That's kind of putting yourself into a box.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, it is. It is. But she also. I think in her mind it was definitely the Boys Club because there were not female writers. Now, Robin Green obviously came in with the Mast head and Judy Sims was not far behind her. Right. If not right at the same time as Ben Frank Tour is remembered. It's really unique but she felt it. But I want to be very clear. In that article in 69, the one about the rock critics, she actually. She didn't say it, but someone actually refers to Ralph J. Gleason as the dean of rock criticism, not Robert Crisco. I just want to point out 70 is when Robert Kriskow calls himself the Deacon.

[Alison Bumstead]

Such titles are best when they come not from the person they're describing.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. So I give it to Ralph Jay Gleason. I mean, I love Robert Kraskow's work. I love all the people I critique. Don't like. That's a critic. Right? They can handle it.

[Alison Bumstead]

Yeah. Krisko, man. But it's funny that she would have said that and described teenset that way, because you read teens that in their prime. You don't get any hint of it being a feminine perspective. It's a perspective. An informed smart, I think.

[Robert Rodriguez]

But that goes back to that. You're a female fan. You're not coming at it like, oh, I know what's best. I'm the dad of rock here, telling you, like John Landau what to think. Right.

[Alison Bumstead]

Okay. So you're talking about that paternal sort of position espoused by Rolling Stone.

[Robert Rodriguez]

The rock is. She's not a raucous. Yes, she's not a raucous. She's not calling. What did they call Janis Joplin, the Judy Garland of rock. She doesn't do that. Would she? Actually, I talk about this specifically because she interviews Janis Joplin with that beautiful Jim Marshall cover. I believe that one's the September that.

[Alison Bumstead]

Was used on an album cover later on.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Yeah. But it's just fascinating how. I think. Because she was a female. Right. She was a small female. 2. She was a little short. And she was. She wore bows in her hair. She was just adorable. And I think that might have been part of why she called it that, because she was probably treated like that. And I've experienced. Not in the same situation, but I've experienced that, too. We've talked about this. You've heard me experience it from one of your guests. So that's one thing that's really, really important. I'm trying to actually find the page. I talk about the. What she says about how she just wants to do her own thing, man. Which I think is really important because she just wants to appreciate music.

[Alison Bumstead]

Right. And that's fair enough. Leave it at that. But I don't want anybody getting the sense. Because if she's describing her own platform as a female viewpoint, that's incredibly limiting. And I don't want to put off any male readers that might be tempted to want to check out teeth that they. Oh, it's a girls magazine.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Well, of course. Well, this was a different time. But again, I think it's because of what she, as a female, was experiencing.

[Alison Bumstead]

Right, sure, I get that. Yeah. I'm just saying you gotta be very careful saying that in the 21st century.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Alison Bumstead]

Because it's like the COVID Grace Slick in Blackface on the COVID of Teen Set.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, that's on the COVID of teenset?

[Alison Bumstead]

Yeah, that's. Blackface means something completely different now than it did in 19th century.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Well, it meant something very similar then, but Grace Slick did it for a very different reason. But there's a great book that deals with it, although they don't really talk about teenset in it. That would be Patrick Burke's book, Tear down these Walls. It's a Jefferson Airplane focused book. It's really interesting. He actually talks about it being, like, very romanticized, which I thought. Yeah. Grace Slick was trying to do something. And they cover that in the book. Especially because she does the fists.

[Alison Bumstead]

Black power solutions.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, but she does it because of the Olympics. Right, right, right.

[Alison Bumstead]

She's demonstrating solidarity and I think.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Which is not the way to do it. Yeah, I know. Yeah, absolutely.

[Alison Bumstead]

Yeah, yeah, Right, right. It means something completely different.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. There are plenty of spaces where I quote her a lot. And I tried to give the reader in the book about her just to really see how she felt. And she talks about, like, young people changing. And I'm trying to find the quote exactly where she talks about how she just wants to do her own thing, but it's there. It's really cool, just how she handles that. But just to add to the teen concept, should we cover that real quick or.

[Alison Bumstead]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Robert Rodriguez]

You asked earlier about the word teen and how it changed. Well, Judy brought it up. Like I said, she brought it up a lot in her responses. She even had questionnaires what the name should be changed to. The final issue of Teen Set had it. Well, actually, going back, there were two different subtitles that she puts under the title Music Magazine for Today's Music Scene, or Today's Magazine for the Music Scene. And then the other one was a nifty music magazine with a misleading name. So it's all there. It's all there and evident. And then she makes the title very small by the January 69 cover, which is the Grace Slick and blackface cover. And then the John Lennon and then, of course, the Hendrix and Mia Farrow on Dolls 1, which Jimi Hendrix was not on many covers, but I love this one that he's on. And she puts a question mark and then it disappears for a month and it comes back right as om a u m. And it's under America's under 30s magazine. And it's also om, right?

[Alison Bumstead]

Yeah.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I didn't know about the om, but she wrote a letter to Chet Flippa where she says she hated it but she had to come up with a name. She wanted it to be like Cheetah. Cheetah was gone. It was a cultural magazine that was really cool and she wanted it to be cultural based. And she came out hitting heavy in three issues. She covered anything from Frank Zappa's GTO's to Cesar Chavez grape strikes to interviewing being the first because of her Buffalo connection. Crosby, Stills Nash. So there were some excellent pieces in there. But I mean the last Teen Set had an Illuminati article where the word Ewig Blumencraft comes from. It comes from teenset. And so I've seen that before in other people's Illuminati conversations. Because I had to read about the Illuminati once I read at Teen Sensor. I was like, okay, I have to go down this rabbit hole now. Something, you know, my students used to talk about all the time, but I never really got into and I'm still not. But I did find some fascinating stuff. But all of these really interesting articles. Jim Marshall was on board, listed as the main photographer. Ben Faktoris started was writing for them. That's when John Mendelsohn came in to play and some others. But yeah, we start to see that Eve Babbitts work is throughout Teen Set, especially with Buffalo and other stuff. We see so many cool things coming in. And when she changes the name, she talks about the name changing right in the magazine. And apparently they didn't lose any subscriptions. Actually they started to gain more. One male writer wrote in the editorials that teens that you've changed. And he's like, thanks, I was not going to read you anymore because I'm not. I don't want to be seen as a teeny person, you know, again, because that changing cultural landscape where tweens were becoming a powerhouse in their own world. And anyways, something might be not as interesting, but the name changed and it didn't seem to hurt it, but she just said it wasn't growing in sales. And so the owners just decided to pack it in, which is too bad.

[Alison Bumstead]

So it was the owner's decision.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, it wasn't hers. I know that.

[Alison Bumstead]

I didn't know if it was the advertisers dropping.

[Robert Rodriguez]

They said they just had trouble with the advertisers and what they thought their tween daughter was would want. And that's not what she was going for because they saw the word teen again. But the conversation around what the word teen means, it's just incredible how open she has it because it's almost like a documentation, a historical documentation of, you know, we're changing and morphing.

[Alison Bumstead]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Robert Rodriguez]

And the other cool thing in there that morphs with it that no one else did is the record reviews. Now, Teen Screen would have record reviews and some others, but not like this. It started off with like, hottest hits in town to serious considerations of records towards the end of the magazine's life.

[Alison Bumstead]

That would be fascinating to look at what they got. Right?

[Robert Rodriguez]

They got some stuff. Right. Well, we'll talk. Yeah, we'll have a team set party.

[Alison Bumstead]

Something I want to take advantage of your presence on the show to talk about because I know you know the subject very well and I think it is something of interest to listenership because it does loom large in the Legend of the Beatles, 1966. And that is Date Book.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, yeah.

[Alison Bumstead]

Which nominally might be considered a parallel publication in as much as it started out as one thing, it developed. You say it goes back to 57. I think it's something kind of very light and innocuous and it grows alongside its audience come the 60s. And where it. It comes to everyone's attention in a big, big way in summer of 66 is by that time they are heavily political. They're beyond teen things. And why don't you do the setup on that? Because most people know that that's where the John Lennon, Maury and Cleave were more popular than Jesus quotes were published in the States. Although it is Paul's mug on the COVID alongside an equally, if not more so inflammatory quote on American racism.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Well, they thought that was going to be the one, not the other one.

[Alison Bumstead]

That's the money.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, they thought that. And I'm not going to say it, but they really thought that would be the one. And honestly, if anything, before I give the rundown on that, I want to say this. Is that because of that quote on the COVID it just gives weight to Paul McCartney's stories around Blackbird and other stuff and his.

[Alison Bumstead]

Oh, yes.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Presence. Yeah, right. Of being racially aware. Anti racist. Yeah, racially aware. I mean, he. If anything supports it, it's that. That right there. And the fact that it was published on a cover is amazing because if anything, unbelievable that that came out. I think that was the most radical thing. Way more radical than Grace Slick and blackface. Right. That they challenged the American people. That a teen fan magazine challenged the American people. But you know what they were reading? I actually, that's one thing that's really important is people were reading. And we know they were reading based off their reactions. So date book in 66 reprints. How does the Beetle Live? You know, John Lennon Lives like this. The Marine Cleave, London Evening Standard, which came out, you know, several months before.

[Alison Bumstead]

Yeah. And now we're talking end of July, just on the precipice of what would be their final tour.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes, yes. Right. Yes. And actually Judy talks about all of this issue. She mentions in 66 when they arrive. She says all the press conferences start off with that question and John squashes it politely and everyone accepts it. And another press conference starts and she says everyone scoffs when they ask about it because it's been addressed. Let's move on. Right. She even says that in there, like this. Move on. He said it. Who cares? It's his opinion and he didn't mean it as you think or whatever. So when that was published, we have to remember who the editors are. Art Unger is the lead editor. Right. Art Unger. And this isn't new to me, like all my own work. Right. Brian Ward wrote this great article about Art Unger and his direction of Date Book. Right. But teenset ties into this too, and so does Teen Screen. Actually, I was reading an article today in Teen Screen. Yeah, this is what I do, guys. I just open Teen Fan magazine and start reading when I have some spare time. Anyways, so Art Unger was a gay man in the 1960s. Right. Which was not a safe thing to be, unfortunately.

[Alison Bumstead]

So Date Book, that's a New York based publication, is it not?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes, it is listed as a New York based publication. Okay.

[Alison Bumstead]

It's distinct from Teenset, which is LA based.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah. Tiger Beat, Teen Screen and Teenset are all LA. Whereas 16 and Date Book are New York based. And it definitely makes a difference in the mid-60s when you see what's being talked about. Right. Like, and who has access to what. Because a lot of the stuff, Jim Morrison, et cetera, you know, Doors and. And all that cool stuff. Dead and et cetera is going to. Is in la.

[Alison Bumstead]

And Rolling Stones is initially San Francisco based.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes, it is. Yeah, that coast is a good one. West Coast. And that makes sense also because Ralph J. Gleason wrote that fabulous book on. On the San Francisco scene in Jefferson Airplane, which. I have that book. I'm very happy I have it. Okay, so date book run by Art Unger, who is coming from a unique perspective here, running this magazine. And he also has the help of Danny Fields. And we know Danny Fields because he worked with the Ramones. Right. And he was friends with Linda. Right.

[Alison Bumstead]

That's what made me think that it had to be New York based because I knew the Fields connection. I knew the Linda connection.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, yeah. With our awesome Lillian Roxanne. Right. There's so many cool females that we have not mentioned, but we're in the teen world, so Lillian Roxanna wasn't writing for the teen mags.

[Alison Bumstead]

Well, it gives you someplace to go with your next book.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's so many things to say. So there's definitely two really unique perspectives. And we start to see date book go in a very radical direction. And it's evident with the covers and what they're covering in general, it's not so much, you know, a teen romance. How far should we go? Like in the. In the late 50s now, it's talking about very different things. And on the COVID of course, we have Paul and the. He can't believe people would say this word to call people. And. And I think it's amazing that they put that on the COVID to call out Americans and. And how they're treating people and other fellow Americans and other people in the world. And of course, they republished with minor alterations. I want to be mindful of that. They weren't big, though. They didn't change the main topic. They were small. I can't tell you exactly what they were off the top of my head, but they weren't sensationalized.

[Alison Bumstead]

No. Is in essence a Reader's Digest republication of something.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Alison Bumstead]

This should be pointed out. You mentioned in this conversation, Tony Barrow earlier, he shopped them to the us Wanted to get them into print media here. And it was in the spirit, if you correct me, if I'm wrong. But this is why I've always understood that he was trying to get the Beatles taken more seriously than just the teenage fluff stuff. It's like, look, they've got opinions. Which was sort of counter to Brian Epstein's policy to that point. Yeah, shut up. If they ask you about the war.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, exactly. There was definitely that performer, stable mindset I think Brian Epstein still had. Right. Whereas you're right. We know that they got their hands on this and it wasn't a big deal in England. No one cared. Right. It was. It didn't shake any feathers, you know, for whatever reason. It didn't cause any problem, ruffle any feathers, shaking.

[Alison Bumstead]

But the attraction was that this was in depth. You got to know the Beatles as human beings. Rather than just the thumbs up, you know, singing on stage, bobbing their heads thing. This was really presenting them for who they really were.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes.

[Alison Bumstead]

And Cleave did a fantastic job with these.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, yeah, and she was excellent. And if you ever wonder how in touch she was with the Beatles, when you watched the first video to the us, the Maisel Brothers film, you can hear Ringo answer the phone and he says, it's Maureen. It's not Maureen Starkey, It's. It's. It's Maureen Cleave, because 64. Right. Anyways, and so Danny Fields also has said, we did it for the right reasons, man. We did it for the rock and roll reasons we didn't think it was going to cause.

[Alison Bumstead]

They weren't trying to stoke a scandal.

[Robert Rodriguez]

They weren't trying to start a Christian riot of burning Beatles records and KKK members standing outside of their conferences, cherry bombs and stating stuff. Yeah. Which is insane to me. It's so funny you have the gall to stand out there and talk about Jesus in your cloak and your hood. Right? Like that's. And it's televised. Which makes me so mad that they would get any credit. But it was the south, right? Still lingering. So there was that. And it wasn't necessarily a bad thing that it was in a teen magazine. And this is my issue is people have used it, used it to dismiss teen magazines. They have said, oh, because look what they do. Look how sensationalized. If you don't, you know, believe it, just look at what they do with Date Book. And I was like, wait, hold on, everybody. If that would have been in any other paper, would you have talked about it like that? Right? Because they think, oh, Date Book caused the Beatles a problem. How dare they? Well, if anything, they made people reflect and people were reading and how cool is that?

[Alison Bumstead]

That was the intent. It was a conversation starter rather than a tabloidy. These naughty. These Beatles looking to stir up a shitstorm. That was not it.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, that was not it. It wasn't that at all. And the fact is, is that people have openly dismissed teen magazines for this kind of stuff and said, just if you don't believe it, look at Date Book. And I was like, wait, hold on, no, Date Book did It for all the right reasons. And if anything, how cool is that? Did Rolling Stone cause that kind of riot like no date book did? Right. That's so cool. Dealing with social issues. I think Art Unger wanted to deal with some social issues. We have the rainbow revolution coming. You know, civil rights are still being fought for the war. Right. It's just crazy, the war. We have so many things going on. That makes sense that that would be there. And it wasn't a teen magazine because the teens were reading it. Right? People were reading it and it got people attention. And if somebody says, well, that's just one example. Well, just mind you, Teenset is. Is the magazine that published the interview where Hendrix talks about Black Panthers. Right. So one of the most. Jacoba Atlas, or I think she goes by Kobe. Right. That's what Debbie told me when she worked with her. I didn't know she worked with her. So cool. She wrote this in the 60s that she's covering Hendrix and Hendrix speaks with her. And in a magazine, an author named Mick Wall, who wrote about Hendrix even says that maybe it wasn't the right place to say it to, but obviously people were reading it, it was there, people were talking.

[Alison Bumstead]

It's frequently cited.

[Robert Rodriguez]

One of the most quoted Hendrix interview is frequently. Everyone knows this interview. Any like die hard Hendrix fan. And it's in teams at first, right. It's so fascinating to me that we think of them as ephemeral when there's a lot of real information, a lot of fascinating information. And by the way, when Maureen Cleaves article was out, it wasn't seen as sensationalism garbage. Right. However we place it in a teen fan magazine and all of a sudden it's sensational garbage. I just like to point that out. Right? It's a fascinating thing. Now the magazines had to deal with this Steve Bradley, who's a researcher in Liverpool that I've connected with recently. He actually got a hold of Art Unger, held on to his letters to the editor and he actually did a great. It's not published yet. I hope he does publish it. I talk about it in my upcoming article. But it's really fascinating research where he looks at how people reacted and he found a lot of really cool things that people were actually really supportive. Free speech and other things. And he cataloged it. You know, he. He guessed. He said I had to guess by name whether it was male or female to make these charts, et cetera. But it's really fascinating research. I know that he has a cool website. What's it called Traveling with the Beatles or it's a really fascinating website. I'll have to put the link up. But he's very active, so there's still interest in this. But Sims had to deal with it. Janie Milstead had to deal with it for Teen Screen because they post a lot of these letters. So all the teen fan magazines got all the emotions and opinions of the people reading them and they would send them all these letters. And one of the things I really love is Janie Milstead. She had already in 65 sent out. This is a bit newer to me and I don't think anyone's actually seen it in my new article in the 20th Century Journal of Media Studies, 20th Century Media studies run by Rob Rabe at Marshall University. It's going to be in his journal soon. And it actually shows a picture of this, so you can see it because it's not out there. She sent from Teen Screen a letter and a ribbon that says the Beatle Guardian Angel. Now, this wasn't completely unknown. I know Sarah Schmidt talks about the Beatles bobbies which. Which take an oath to protect the Beatles from fans too. Like, don't embarrass us as fans. Let's let the Beatles be so we can still enjoy them. Type attitude. Well, J.D. milstead sent out these ribbons and you could wear them. She sent them out twice. The second time was right after the controversial comments, apparently by John. Right. And she like, more than ever, wear your ribbon. Make sure we know that we're Beatles fans and that we're out there and we're supporting our Beatles and we're protecting them. We loved that they caught. What did she say? She's like, won our devotion once and they're gonna keep it. So devout Beatles fans were devoting themselves to the Beatles and I think it's just, just so cool. It's just so active. It's not surprising a magazine would do something like that. And that dealt with, of course, with the reaction to the comments. But Teen Screen was known for that because in 64, during the whole summer Ringo for President campaign, this will also be. You'll be able to see it in the article. It's a free article, by the way. I'm not selling any. Be able to see all the. They made like arm badges and little buttons and stars that you could cut out and, you know, make or wear for Ringo for President campaign too. So they were very, very active and very involved these magazines with. Especially with Beetle fandom.

[Alison Bumstead]

Boy, how things change between 64 and.

[Robert Rodriguez]

68 and they do. And Teensa again reflects it. You'll see the Beatles kind of not disappear, but they'll slowly move out of the teen fan magazines by symptoms 69. Not again, not disappear, but just not be as president. President, not president. Yes. Beatles were president. Yes. Sorry, I was thinking Ringo Starr for president. I get excited and I talk really fast, as my students tell me sometimes. But you'll start to see a change, and there's evidence. Diana Bell Skimper talks about this, and Gloria Stavers talks about this herself. And Stephen Kahn, who ran flip in the 60s, mid-60s, 65. He mentions it in a really cool article in Esquire that the idea that teen, you know, once they get to a certain age, they're not really reading for us. And, you know, the Beatles were having some fun and so are the Stones. And those were both darlings of, you know, tiger beat and etc. Especially because Tiger Beat had mod mags, like mod themed mags with Lloyd Thaxton's name on it. Although he didn't own it. He was just sponsoring it for his TV show. Talk about one that you don't see syndicated at all. Is the Lloyd Thaxton show anymore.

[Alison Bumstead]

Yeah. Wonder if they exist.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Ah, yeah. I have no idea. It was a good one, though. It was interesting. Anyways, so, I mean, they don't show up as much and you start to see a very different shift in who they're covering and what they're covering. I mean, Tiny Tim, although he's in Rolling Stone too, so. But Goldie Hawn and I see it in, like, a Tiger Beat. There's a great thing in the book where I actually compare the September issue in 68 of TeenSet and Tiger B. And you can see the visual change, actually, throughout the book, I have each cover in color. You can see the visual change in the covers, too. That's another thing that teenset does that the other ones don't. And the Beatles are a big part of that, too, of the covers they're on a lot of them.

[Alison Bumstead]

Yeah, they sure are. Absolutely.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah.

[Alison Bumstead]

Wow.

[Robert Rodriguez]

There's more.

[Alison Bumstead]

I mean, I know anybody listening to this that is interested in teenset magazines is going to find. And the prices have skyrocketed of late.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh, please. Look, I'm gonna make a plea to anybody who will hear me out. I have bought multiple magazines and I don't have them all. I have all the teen sets. Don't get me wrong, I have all of those. But there's so many teen fan magazines from the 60s that it's it's. It's expensive. They're harder to find, especially in the South. You don't see them for sale a lot. I have to get them on ebay or, you know, if I get lucky. I recently found some at an antique there. I got really lucky. I traded.

[Alison Bumstead]

They burned them all in the 60s.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, they burned a lot of them in the South. That's probably true. Especially in 66. Anything with the Beetle on it? Could you imagine being. I would love to read a story from a young girl who's just distraught watching all her parents burn all her Beetle stuff. There has to be an account that I just don't know of. And I just. Oh yeah, I want to read it. Not because I would take, you know, join it. I would just. I want to be in that moment to feel those emotions. Oh gosh, what a story that. I'm shocked that no one has written that story because I'm sure it happened.

[Alison Bumstead]

Yeah, Christine, sure.

[Robert Rodriguez]

I feel like somebody would have done that to their daughter or son, you know, burn all their stuff that they love. Anyways, my plea is that if you have any old teen fan magazines from whatever era, because I'm working on a whole history from the 50s to around 2018 ish. Because that's when they start to just. They're. They're gone. 16's been gone for a while. Tiger Beat disappears around them, etc, Teen Beat's been gone. My plea is that if you have any that you don't want, I would pay the shipping because I am creating an archive and I. And I'm not going to keep it forever. I'm going to make it public and to donate it to a university of my choice that I think would keep it and make it scan them even if they have to ruin some of them because that just is a better way to keep them alive. Right. For everyone to see. And I think that they should be artifacts for people. For people who want to write more about these things and use teen fan magazines, they already do. There is a plethora of people who quote teen fan magazines even if we don't realize it as fact. And that's another way to show their authenticity. But so if you want to send it to me, I can get you some details. I would love to have them. I realize if you want to sell them, they sell slowly because you're waiting for me to buy them and I don't have a. You know, this research has caught, you know, just the amount of money to get these things because libraries didn't Save them. Right. So I've had to just get by with getting all of this. But if anyone is interested in that, I promise it will be kept. If you read magazines from whatever era, I would love to hear your voice. Please reach out to me. I have a Google form you can fill out. I'm happy to talk on Zoom. I would record it, but I don't ever show it to anybody. Or I can talk on the phone and just take notes if you prefer that. Especially if you read magazines in the 90s. I'm looking for that too, of course. 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, all of it.

[Alison Bumstead]

And worldwide, right?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yeah, worldwide. I'm looking for Soul, Teen and blackbeat and Ride on and readers of Tiger Beat. Teen Beat, Any teen fan magazine of any generation. If you read it or you loved it, tell me about it. Now magazines I don't usually include in this are magazines that, for example, Circus and Hit Parader. I realize that they do have teen elements, but if you. If those are the ones you read, I still want to hear your story. Right. Smash Hits becomes a teen magazine. Right? For sure. Like especially in the 90s. So, etc. Okay, that's my plea again. All my research is. Is non profit and I'm trying to make it all as public as possible. Especially my journal articles. The one that you'll have to about Beatles and Community and the Beatles narrative and T fan magazines that is 100% open access for you to check out.

[Alison Bumstead]

So to keep things simple, an awful lot of what we're talking about, you've got linked on your own website, right?

[Robert Rodriguez]

Yes. And on Instagram, if I'm @alisonbemstead b u m S T E D on Instagram. And I always include a lot of things that you can check out. I included a scaffold article recently. Not that. Well, not recently, but it's there. You can go check it out. That was in Teensa. If you're the Beatles fan who loves Mike McCartney and all things Liverpool, that's something to check out. But yes, they will be there for people to check out. Yes, and I update it and change it and.

[Alison Bumstead]

And your web address is.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Oh well, it's debbiedevi.alisonbevisod.com if it's not quite perfectly updated, it's because I make my own site, y'all. It's just. But Instagram is definitely a way to reach out. Or if you want the form, I'll link the Google form in the site for sure too.

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[Robert Rodriguez]

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[Alison Bumstead]

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[Robert Rodriguez]

Want to know what Tiny Tim is.

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[Robert Rodriguez]

Want to know and talk about is in December's issue of Imagazine. That's the.

[Shopify Representative]

This is Lawrence Lanahan, journalist, musician and host of Rearranged, an Osiris Media podcast about music arranging. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. We're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment like horns and strings, or doing a cover version of a song arrangement. Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustic, even tiny decisions like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turn of phrase. It's all arranging. Rearranged Episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions like like what is a song and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song change the meaning you take from it? Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. Tune in to Rearranged and maybe it'll happen for you too. Learn [e-mail] Osiris.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Hi, I'm Christina Jorling Biro, host of the podcast Pop Culture Confidential. Join me as I go way behind the scenes with some of the most influential people in entertainment and media. Hear actors such as Succession's Brian Cox talk about his favorite characters to play, there always has to be a mystery.

[Magazine Advertiser]

The audience have to be in a situation where they want to know what's going on.

[Robert Rodriguez]

Meet studio execs like Pixar chief Pete Docter and learn his secret on on how he makes us cry. Emotion is our first language, and so many others who are defining popular culture, from Obama speechwriter David Litt to Top Chef host Padma Lakshmi. We don't often think about food politically, or we don't want to, but it really is. Join Me Search for Pop Culture Confidential Wherever you get your podcasts.