304: Badfinger's Head First with Bob Jackson

Summary

Podcast Summary: Something About the Beatles
Episode 304: Badfinger's Head First with Bob Jackson
Release Date: May 7, 2025

Hosted by award-winning author Robert Rodriguez, Episode 304 of "Something About the Beatles" delves deep into the tumultuous history of Badfinger, exploring their rise, struggles with management, tragic losses, and the eventual resurrection of their unreleased album "Head First." Featuring an in-depth interview with Bob Jackson, a key member of Badfinger, this episode unpacks the complexities that plagued the band and offers insightful reflections on their enduring legacy.

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1. Introduction to Badfinger’s Turbulent History

Robert Rodriguez opens the episode by commemorating the passing of Joey Mullin, the last surviving member of Badfinger's classic lineup. He sets the stage by outlining Badfinger's discography, highlighting their significant albums such as "No Dice," "Straight Up," "Ass," and "Wish You Were Here."

Host (03:23): "That four-man lineup, starting with No Dice, which had No Matter What and Without You on it, followed by Straight Up, Day After Day, and Baby Blue..."

2. Badfinger’s Early Success and Apple Records Era

Badfinger, initially signed as the Ivys in 1968, became one of the first bands on Apple Records. Despite working closely with Mal Evans, their association with Apple was marred by poor management and lack of business acumen from the Beatles.

Host (04:57): "Jettisoned along the way were their ideals."

The band saw moderate success with singles like "Tomorrow" but struggled with album releases in the U.S., leading to frustration and financial strain.

3. Management Issues and Financial Struggles

The introduction of American manager Stan Polly exacerbated Badfinger's woes. Polly, allegedly connected to mob elements, mismanaged the band's finances, siphoning funds and leaving them with minimal earnings despite successful records.

Badfinger Member (02:26): "Time when we broke up, we were getting a lot of money from Warner Brothers for every record we did..."

4. The Tragic Loss of Pete Ham

Amidst financial and managerial chaos, guitarist Pete Ham succumbed to depression and committed suicide shortly after quitting the band in 1974. His death marked the beginning of Badfinger's rapid decline.

Unknown Singer (02:18): "I can't live if living is without you I can't live, can't give anymore."

5. The Rejection and Resurrection of "Head First"

Badfinger’s album "Head First," produced by Chris Thomas, was completed but swiftly rejected by Warner Brothers due to ongoing turmoil. Decades later, Bob Jackson successfully tracked down the missing master tapes, remixed, and remastered the album, leading to its long-awaited release in 2024.

Badfinger Member (72:58): "I was disappointed, but persistent. I had to look deeper."

6. In-Depth Interview with Bob Jackson

Bob Jackson shares his journey of joining Badfinger under strained circumstances. Initially auditioning without full knowledge of the band's internal issues, Jackson became an integral member, contributing significantly to the "Head First" project.

Bob Jackson (13:03): "I was like, wow, that's kind of amazing and very timely."

Joining the Band Amidst Chaos

Jackson recounts receiving an anonymous telegram inviting him to audition, leading to his seamless integration into Badfinger.

Bob Jackson (14:17): "I still don't know who sent me that email."

Creative Contributions and Musical Dynamics

As a keyboardist and vocalist, Jackson brought a fresh dynamic to the band, influencing their musical direction during the "Head First" sessions.

Bob Jackson (25:04): "I thought, yeah, this is this kind of more melodic thing. You're connecting with more people."

7. Tour Experiences and Internal Conflicts

The tour, where Badfinger opened for the Welsh band Man, was a mix of musical success and internal strife. The setlist excluded Pete Ham’s hits, hinting at underlying tensions.

Bob Jackson (28:08): "We were doing everything but Pete Ham songs. Do you remember thinking at the time, well, this is weird."

Clashing Personalities and Management Pressure

Conflicts arose between band members and management, particularly over financial discrepancies and the direction of their music, leading to Joey Mullin’s eventual departure.

Bob Jackson (33:31): "There was clearly something rotten going on with their management in Stan Polly."

8. The Making and Legacy of "Head First"

Despite the rushed and pressured recording environment, Jackson expresses satisfaction with the "Head First" album, acknowledging what could have been achieved with more time. The 2024 remastered release provided closure and a fitting tribute to Pete Ham’s legacy.

Bob Jackson (66:20): "I'm happy about the quality of it, it's great that we achieved what we did."

9. Final Reflections and Moving Forward

The episode concludes with Jackson reflecting on the band's past tragedies and his hopes for "Head First" to be a completed piece that honors the memories of lost members. He emphasizes the importance of perseverance and unity in overcoming the band's historic challenges.

Bob Jackson (68:15): "I'm really proud of what we did. We pulled together and we worked hard."

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Notable Quotes:

• Bob Jackson (14:44): "It's amazing, but to hear your vocals, this is like Badfinger. The harmonies, the sweetness, the much more Beatlesque."

• Bob Jackson (27:05): "It was very, very serendipitous. It was a good match."

• Badfinger Member (57:15): "Once it was like, yeah, that's it. But it was the first time I'd been approached to offer up any material and passed fast."

• Bob Jackson (82:29): "I saw him, he's not normal, that's self-harm."

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Conclusion:

Episode 304 of "Something About the Beatles" offers a poignant exploration of Badfinger's legacy through Bob Jackson's firsthand experiences. From their promising beginnings and subsequent downfall to the emotional revival of "Head First," the episode underscores the resilience of musicians amidst adversity. Listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the band's intricate history, the personal struggles of its members, and the enduring impact of their music.

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Recommended for Listeners:

If you’re fascinated by the lesser-known stories of iconic bands and wish to understand the complexities behind the music, this episode provides a rich, emotional, and insightful narrative. Whether you're a long-time Badfinger fan or new to their story, Robert Rodriguez and Bob Jackson deliver a compelling account that resonates with the timeless spirit of the Fab Four.

Transcript

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[State Farm Advertiser]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. You might say all kinds of stuff when things go wrong, but these are the words you really need to remember. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you need, have coverage options to protect the things you value most, file a claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person when you need to talk to someone. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there Bad Finger is a rock band. Of course, it was very popular in the early 70s, and now its members are trying very hard to make it popular again. But their story concerns more than rock music. It's about money and bad management and tragedy.

[Unknown Singer]

I can't live if living is without you I can't live, can't give anymore.

[State Farm Advertiser]

When the Beatles dispersed and Apple collapsed, Badfinger signed with another record company. But the band's music seemed to drift and bad management took its toll. And then a few days after he quit the group, guitarist Pete Hamm committed suicide. Badfinger quickly collapsed.

[Badfinger Member]

We all jumped out, see, because it was a spy. It was bad news, bad news all over the place.

It still isn't sorted out now the.

Time when we broke up, we were getting a lot of money from Warner Brothers for every record we did. And we were earning money on the road as well, playing gigs.

You manager was, you know, all the.

Money was going into Badfinger Enterprises in New York, and it was being sifted to US rates of $1,500 a month. That was all we ever got out of. It was the $1,500 a month.

[State Farm Advertiser]

Misfortune, trials, troubles, pain, suffering are a very real part of life for all of us. It's how we deal with them that makes the difference. A Stumbling block, as they say, can become a stepping stone. There is little doubt that on this go around Badfinger will be wiser, stronger and less vulnerable.

[Podcast Host]

Hello and welcome to episode 304 of Something about the Beatles podcast. As we all know, on March 1st this year we lost Joey Mullin, the.

[Badfinger Member]

Last surviving member of the classic lineup of Badfinger.

[Podcast Host]

That was Pete Ham, Tom Evans, Mike Gibbons and Joey. That four man lineup, starting with no Dice, which had no matter what and without you on it, followed by straight up, day after day and Baby Blue, followed by Ass, their final Apple album, and then the two Warner Brothers albums, the self titled one and wish you were here, their shining hour from start to finish. Now to anybody listening to this that doesn't know much about Badfinger, they were signed as the Ivys with a slightly different lineup in 1968, one of the first bands on Apple. They worked a ton with Mal Evans, who in fact produced some of their sessions. But the label being not fully as functional as it should have been with the Beatles clearly not being businessmen and not really having the capability of launching an unknown artist other than the hit that they had with Mary Hopkin with those were the days. Jackie Lomax, a guy that I think we'd all agree had talent, somehow failed to click. The James Taylor album produced at Apple failed to catch on with the masses. And there may be reasons for that. I don't think Peter Asher's production was all it could been and certainly didn't capture the sound that he would find fully at Warner Brothers not long after they left. And of course the label being completely turned in disarray with the arrival of Alan Klein, ostensibly to fix and make it a money machine. Jettisoned along the way were their ideals.

[Badfinger Member]

Of a place where any worthy artist.

[Podcast Host]

Could find nurturing and presentation. That all fell by the wayside, of course, but in that turmoil, the Ivys maybe Tomorrow was a minor hit in some countries. The album got canceled for release in America due decline and so they were kind of languishing. Tom Evans complained in the music press about that fact, caught Paul McCartney's attention, who decided he could use them to kill two birds with stone, fulfilling a commitment he had made for the soundtrack of the Magi Christian film starring Ringo. He got them to record his demo come and get it, following his directive giving them a hit and getting it off his to do list as they composed a couple other songs for the film soundtrack, Carry on till Tomorrow and Rock of all Ages. So it was a win win for everybody, put them on the map. Ron Griffiths, who had been the bass player and plays on all that Ivy stuff, fell by the wayside. There was a shakeup wherein Tom Evans moved to bass from rhythm guitar. That brought in Joey Mullin, a very capable co lead player as well as songwriter and singer. And so Badfinger were set on their way in 1970 with the no Dice album which yielded the aforementioned smash no Matter what, as well as the Money Spinner without yout as covered by Harry Nilsson and later other people including Mariah Carey. So here's a band that should have been far more successful. Apple wasn't really looking after them and unfortunately their personal manager Bill Collins, this older gentleman from Liverpool, an Alan Williams figure. They decided to bring in an American, Stan Polly, who if you haven't heard that name before or don't know about him, was essentially a member of the mob, or at least mob connected. Ripped them off utterly led to the suicide directly of Peter Hamm, the guy who'd been spinning the hit singles out of them. A guy who should have been far more esteemed as a writer. He certainly was a talent as a singer and guitarist. But the turmoil wrought by Stan Polly destabilized them as a group and it became this power struggle between the Mullins, Joey and his wife Kathy. Kathy discovered the chicanery going on by Polly, tried to warn the band of it. They instead, and Pete most of all was not about to listen to Joey's wife telling them what's what about their management situation. He quits the band in the autumn of 1974 on the heels of the Wish youh Were Here album. They seek a replacement and they recruit a keyboardist guitarist who'd previously been in a Prague band called Indian Summer and later in a band called Ross, who had opened for Eric Clapton. That band had folded, he was available, so he was brought in to fulfill their tour commitment in the UK in the autumn of 1974, just before they set out on that tour, Pete comes back wishing to be part of the band again. So as a five piece they go out opening for the Welsh band Man. The end of that tour, with the bad blood still unresolved, Joey Mullen quits the group. So now it's the four piece again. Pete, Tommy, Mike and Bob. Stan Polly orders them to go back into the studio, record another album on the heels of Wish youh Were Here, which had been canceled by Warner Brothers at that time. This magnificent album produced by Chris Thomas, gets withdrawn from the market because Warner Brothers recognizes something bad's going on. Six figure money put in escrow as an advance on that album has gone missing and they're looking into it. So they pull it back before it really gets a chance to have a life. And Polly orders them back into the studio to create another album simply to extract more money per the terms of their contract. Another advance from Warner Brothers. See if he could play them one more time. So the four of them go into the studio, Apple Studio, as it were, at the end of 1974, to record an album that was going to be called Head First. Warners rejects the album. Four months later, Pete commits suicide. April 1975.

[Unknown Singer]

There was a young man Watched his life unfold each day.

[Badfinger Member]

He only wanted to play.

[Unknown Singer]

He only needed a race and then he found out One rainy afternoon he lost all he crawl.

[Badfinger Member]

That.

[Podcast Host]

Is basically the end of Badfinger. Till a few years later. Tommy has moved on to a band with Bob called the Dodgers. And Joey forms Natural Gas along with.

[Badfinger Member]

Jerry Shirley from Humble Pie.

[Podcast Host]

They get an album out initially, Mal Evans was supposed to be working with them for that. He ends up killed in 76 after being fired from that project. So a lot of drama going on. Joey gets approached by a couple guys from Chicago, Joe Tanson, the guitarist, and drummer Kenny Hark. They track him down to la, start making some demos, form something musical. Their bass player doesn't work out, Joey calls Tommy. Tommy likes what he hears, he gets brought in and that leads directly to the comeback album. We know that came out in March of 1979 airwaves. But because of the label's insistence on calling it Badfinger, it didn't start out as a Badfinger project. It was gonna be an all new band. Kenny gets fired through the sessions pretty early on, the drummer. And then Joe quits upon the release of the album, feeling that was not what he signed on for. And so Badfinger gets the second wind. They eventually recruit Tony K, who'd been the keyboardist for the first couple yes albums, and they record another album, say no More, for Radio Records. It's a Atlantic Records subsidiary. Comes out in early 1981. Something goes on between Joey and Tommy where they split into separate camps. Mike plays initially with Tommy and then later on with Joey. But in between, Tommy commits suicide in the autumn of 1983. Where this leaves Bob, who has been playing with a latter day iteration again, like Mike, sometimes with Tommy, then with Joey, and then not at all. It's a long, drawn out rock and roll soap opera of the tragedy kind. Two suicides, a lot of hard luck, a lot of bad blood, a lot of bad, bad Stuff going on. But in any event, that Head first album, Bob looks into getting it pried away from Warner Brothers and in fact releases a version of it in 2000 on the Snapper label, bolstered by demos and unreleased material that comes and goes. But he feels like the work has really not been resolved because he couldn't get a hold of the master tapes. Warner Brothers tells them that they are missing, possibly stolen, who knows? Well, Bob is nothing if not persistent. And eventually he does track them down, recovers them, gets in the studio, remixes, remastered and does the proper job on Headfirst that was not done in 1974. Gets it done for release nearly 50 years to the day. At the end of 2024, that album gets released at last as envisioned, and it sounds magnificent. The band actually gelled. Bob and Tommy and Mike and Pete.

[Badfinger Member]

It is the last place where you.

[Podcast Host]

Will hear new material from Pete Ham, produced and issued in a band setting. I'm glad it's out there. It's never sounded better. And if you haven't heard Headfirst, you should check it out. Anyway, Bob agreed to sit down for an interview in the wake of Joey's sad loss. I long wanted to do a Badfinger show. Anyway, I'm glad to have the last surviving member of a band called Badfinger who can legitimately make that claim.

[Badfinger Member]

Here he is. You came into the Badfinger orbit when they were looking for a replacement for Pete Hamm. So it was Joey, Tommy and Mike. Can you describe how that whole thing happened? I know that you were in a band called Ross after Indian Summer.

Yes, that's right.

Apparently you weren't really doing much of anything at that point. But you just finished a tour at Clapton.

That's right, that's right.

Okay.

Yeah, we just finished this long tour with Clapton. It was Clapton's comeback tour where he was sort of cleaning up after being on drugs for forever.

And what an album it was. That would have been 461 Ocean Boulevard.

Yeah, exactly. That's the album they were promoting at the time. Yeah, I remember it well. And yeah, that tour went really well with that band. But deep down I wasn't really happy. So I left the band, came back. We'd also just finished an album in the States as well with Ross. But anyway, as I said, I wasn't happy. So I flew back and then second guessed myself once I arrived back home thinking, well, I really haven't got a plan here. You know, I'm basically out of work now with nowhere to go. And it was so Fortuitous. I got a telegram. You might not remember telegrams, but they were a thing. I got a.

A wire. Yeah.

Yeah, I got a telegram just saying, are you free? Would you like to come to an audition in London? And it didn't state the name of the band, so I was a little bit flummoxed about that. I was like, wow, that's kind of amazing and very timely.

Was this your manager that sent you this?

No, I didn't even know sent it. And you know something? I still don't know who sent me that email.

Wow. So somebody knew you were available and just reached out to you randomly.

That's right. I mean, amazing. I mean, that is amazing, isn't it? I was out of work, nowhere to go, and suddenly I get neat. This telegram invited me to do an audition. So went down and discovered that it was Badfinger and I was knocked out. The thing is, though, that I hadn't rehearsed anything up or anything. I hadn't. What I should have done, of course, was checked up on the albums and this and that. But don't forget, we're in an era now where there was no Internet. I didn't even have a phone, you know, if I wanted to make a phone call, I had to go to the local phone box. I mean, it sounds crazy in this world today, but that's how it was.

When you said you had to come down to London, you were at home in Coventry.

That's right. That's right. It's about 100 miles away. So I went down on the train, got into the room, met the guys, and it's like, yeah, well, we're bad for you. I was like, all right, okay, great. I knew about bad things. Reputation. It had a great reputation. I knew some of the songs, the singles, but I didn't really know much else. Anyway, we started rehearsing. I didn't question that no one else was there. I just said, so you're looking for a keyboard player, singer, writer, bit of guitar. And, yeah, we didn't talk about Pete at all. And I. I didn't have the awareness to bring him up. So, anyway, I did the audition. It was a bit up and down because I didn't know a lot of the tracks. I remember Joey, or maybe Tommy. I think it was Joey saying, well, we'll do this one off the so and so album. And I'd be like, yeah, well, I don't know that one. And they'd be like, really? And I'd be sorry about that. So, anyway, cut a Long story short, basically we just jammed in the end. We played some rock and roll, blues, kind of standards, improvising, you know. And that, happily, was a good feel. It seemed to gel. Everyone thought it sounded great. It felt good to me. So at the end of that, after about 10 minutes talking, the guys sort of said, well, there's a tour straight away coming up. I mean, are you into doing it? I said, well, is that it? I've got the gig. Yeah, you've got the gig. It's like, wow. Because I know they've had other people.

So just like that.

Yeah, just like that.

Jamming. So first of all, was this their rehearsal space on Denmark Street?

It was, yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Do you know the eventual fate of that space?

I do. Bill Collins, our manager at the time, passed it to Malcolm McLaren from the sex Pistols.

And they said, that is just like a crazy story.

I know, it's just mad, isn't it, really? I was surprised at the time when I heard that. But, yeah. So anyway, so we rehearsed for I'm Staying Down There Now. And after about two or three days. Again, nothing had been mentioned about the ex member, Pete. But he turned up one day. We were in the middle of playing a song in the rehearsal room in steps. This guy, I thought, he looks vaguely familiar. I've seen his face before. Anyway, he stepped in and just listened. And then when we finished the song, everyone sort of gathered around, started chatting with him. I didn't. Because I didn't really know him. You know, I sat there on my stool, and I think we might have played one more number. And then they all. With the exception of our road tag, everyone went out for a conflab. For a talk about it all. So it was just me sitting there, kind of twiddling my thumbs, thinking, hmm. So where does that.

Is this a. For you?

Yeah. Does this bode well for me? Or am I. I'm just like, I'm surplus to requirements now. Happily, they came back and said, well, this is. Pete introduced me and all. He's going to rejoin. This is the guy you replaced. He's going to rejoin. And I said, and me. They said, oh, no, no, we want to keep you on. It'll be great with five people. So I was like, well, thank you. So that's the long and the short of how I came to join.

They've agreed. Now Pete Ham has come back. You're introduced to Pete Ham.

Yeah.

And at this point, you said you'd known the Badfinger singles. Did you recognize. Oh, this Is the guy responsible for those hit singles?

No, I didn't. I didn't know enough about the band. As I said, this wasn't a very. Kind of information.

Freely flowing.

Freely flowing. Like today. You'd just check up, wouldn't you? You know. Yeah, not then. I mean. So I. I kind of knew a bit about the band, but I didn't know that much, to be honest. So I wasn't really aware who I was meeting. When I met Pete, he just seemed a really nice guy. Big, big smile and very welcoming. So I just thought, well, this is great now because it's the bound back together with me. You can add an extra harmony, the keyboard parts and. Yeah, and everyone seemed to be of the same accord that this was going to work great.

And this should be underscored. You're not a hired gun brought in to complete a tour. You're being integrated into the band. Your input is as important as anybody's. You're not being dictated to. You're a full fledged member of Badfinger now.

Well, to be absolutely accurate, when they invited me and said, you're in, I didn't really know what that meant. And it wasn't really till the tour ended that it was made formal that they said, look, we want you in full time. So it was okay. It was later on, really. But, yes, I was a full member. I wasn't just a session guy, you know.

Yes.

Yeah.

So given them our familiarity with Badfinger's body of work, and there are keyboards throughout, and there have been from day one with the Come and Get it single. Were you exclusively on keyboards or did you switch according to the needs of the song? Maybe play guitar on this one? How was your role defined? Was it like a track by track basis that they were like, oh, maybe you can contribute this on this one, or It'd be great if you could do the piano part here or the organ part here. How did that get sorted out?

Well, we decided not to bother with the guitar thing because now that Pete was back, there were two guitars there, if you see what I mean. I didn't really need to add anything there. Of course, in later years on stage I would, but not at that point. So I was adding organ and piano, mainly with some. I bought this up ARP Odyssey synthesizer, that was mine personally and brought it down. And we did use that on some of the tracks, because some of the tracks, you know, I wish you were here. Sourced sort of thing from that. So I did use that. So, yeah, it was just keyboards anyway. Just keyboards and Vocals, of course.

Okay. And this is something else I want to mention to the listeners. You first got on the map to my breadth of knowledge in a band called Indian Summer, that put out an album, 1971, out of Coventry, managed by the same management behind Black Sabbath.

Yeah.

And in the spectrum of rock and roll, you've got Badfinger, who's this pop rock band geared toward hit singles but with great album tracks. Indian Summer is a Prague band and absolutely very different animal.

Yeah. It is our mentality in those days when we formed Indian Summer was to be different, not to be mainstream. I think a lot of bands were looking to be individual. That was the key word, you know, be yourself, be individual. Don't follow any trends, just try to do your own thing. And that's what we did in that band. And yes, as you quite rightly say, it was very progressive. So I think when I moved from that to the Ross band that I was with, that was a slight change because the songs were a bit more structured, but it still relied heavily on blues in terms of, you know, improvising and playing Badfinger. Yeah. It was another step away again. But I really. I think the profound kind of thing for me was realizing that kind of less is more. You don't have to be the fastest gun in the west and show all your licks off and, you know, and that sometimes three, four chords and a simple melody that connects with people. That's the important thing, that it connects. It's not just you showing off your. What you can do, which too often.

Is the hallmark of Prague.

Well, exactly. That's right. That's right. But it isn't that. And I came to a realization quite quickly that, yeah, there was a place for that in the songs. And indeed, Pete was very blues based. He loved the blues. You know, in the Ivies, they played a lot of blues, Cream stuff and Hendrix and all this sort of thing. But it did quite quickly. I thought, yeah, this is this kind of more melodic thing. You're connecting with more people. It just made. It was like a bing, you know, a switch turned and. Yeah, so I really did enjoy it. But you're right, it was a different animal and I had to kind of. It's a different kind of discipline. Yeah.

Yes. And people would be astonished. You can go to YouTube and check out the Indian Summer album and you're the lead vocalist, Right?

That's right.

And you're playing a Hammond.

Yes. And throwing it all around the stage and.

Yeah. And showmanship.

Standing on it and, you know, anything I Could do, I would do yeah, yeah. So it was completely different.

[Unknown Singer]

Free from oppression and bearing nowhere yeah. Heading away from the arts of monument Never to hear the sound of all sets again Living with the sun that don't begin and never end One thing I did like our.

[Badfinger Member]

It's amazing, but to hear your vocals, this is like Bad Finger. The harmonies, the sweetness, the. Much more Beatlesque. I know that's a term that gets applied far too often to the bad finger, but it's pop rock. But you're doing these almost operatic vocals. It's like so far removed and it's like people listening, it would be like, wow, this and this guy fitted into Badfinger perfectly. But then you think about it, this is also a band who later on hired Tony K, who also came from a Prague band on keyboards. So there's a precedent, I think, that.

Says it all, doesn't it? Yeah, that's right, Yeah. I mean, bear in mind, even though I'd formed a prog band because it was a thing of the time, it was a way to go. Most bands were trying to do something different. I always had a very big soft spot for the Beatles. Always loved the Beatles from when I was at school. So it wasn't like. It was completely alien to me, the idea of harmony and melody. So, yeah, it wasn't difficult for me to fit into Badfinger. I didn't find it difficult. It was just a different discipline, as I said.

Yeah, well, it sounds like a path that was. There was a logical progression with Ross in between that led you down that path. And the irony is, if you listen to the Wish youh Were Here album, that is probably as Prague as Badfinger ever got.

Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, it's an amazing album that, if you're a Prague fan, you check out Psy 2 especially. It's like, this is amazing. This is Badfinger, the hit single band. Oh, my God, this is good. The orchestrations.

Yeah. One could argue that that in itself is so far away from the early album, you know, the early albums they did in terms of style. Yeah. It's so different. And much more an emphasis, of course, put on improvise, you know, a heavier sound and, you know, improvisation, solos and stuff like that. So, yeah, you're right.

Harmonized twin leads. Yeah.

Yeah. So it was a very happy accident for me to arrive at that time when they indeed were changing as well.

Exactly right. It's like if you remove the business management problems from that band, musically, they were on top of the world. They just progressed and progressed and you were like the perfect guy to fit in with that direction that they're going in. At that time it was this. God, I wish there was an alternate universe where we could have seen that string play out, because what music you guys could have done. It's just astonishing how they found exactly the right guy from this mystery telegram that showed up. It's like, this is perfect.

Yeah, it was fortunate. It was very, very serendipitous. I remember going back to when we did the rehearsals. I remember I brought this synthesizer down. It only played one note at a time. I mean, that was the technology. Cost a fortune. Cost me about eight or nine hundred quid. Then that's back in 74, 73. When we're playing, I started improvising and bending notes on it and adding vib, just like a guitar. And I remember Joey going, whoa. You know, he'd do a thing and I'd put harmony, like bending the synth.

Wow.

And he was like, wow. Yeah, well, they all were a little bit like, oh, we haven't heard anyone do that very much, you know. It was very fortunate, really. Yeah, it was a good match.

That's brilliant. So you're joining Badfinger. Pete comes in and now you're a five piece and you've got this tour booked. Now, originally you brought in because you're a replacement, you're the fourth guy on stage for Pete Ham, but now it's five guys. Yet the Badfinger resource we seem to have easy access to is Dan Matavina's book Without yout.

And.

And I was rereading some of that and I saw he had in there a set list for that tour where you guys are playing the UK with man, the Welsh Prague Band. I couldn't believe. It's a five piece band. Pete's in it and yet you guys are doing everything but Pete Ham songs. Apparently the set was not adjusted to his re entry into the band. Do you remember thinking at the time, well, this is weird. Pete Ham songs are the ones that are the best known to the public. But we're kind of locked in or we've made the decision to lock ourselves into this. Almost like he's the hired gun.

Yeah, it was a big, big mistake. In answer to your question, yes, I was surprised and shocked we weren't playing any of the successful songs. What sense did that make? And it was only as the tour progressed and time progressed that I realized, I found out why Pete had gone in the first place, that there was a friction, a rubbing up personalities and he'd gone but the fact he'd come back hadn't erased all that. That kind of thing was still there.

There was no resolution.

It hadn't been resolved at all. And in fact, again, I learned later that Pete didn't have to come back at all. I think he could have. I think there was a chance of negotiating a deal on his own, like a solo thing that he could have done. But he was told that Badfinger as an entity would probably crumble if he didn't come back, that we would, you know, the band would perish, really. And so he came back to my way of thinking, very, very unselfishly. I mean, he probably wanted to come back anyway after having a row, but at the same time, he didn't really have to. He could have said, no, I'm on land now. I've got it, my own deal.

So out of a sense of duty to salvage Badfinger, even though they'd filled that spot, he thought, the world is not gonna accept you without me.

Well, he was told that I believe by people. And in the end, he came.

Okay.

I think this says a lot about him as a personality, as a guy, that he would come back and accept that we're not gonna play any of my songs. Yeah, that's right, mate, you know? And he would accept and go, okay, now, how many people.

That's crazy.

Would have done that? That's being really selfless, you know? So, yes, the awareness grew on me as time the tour went on that we're not playing these songs and this is a bit mad. And, you know, the audience don't know a lot of these songs we're playing. So. Not that we didn't go down well. We went down great, but that wasn't the point, really. We weren't using our strengths. We weren't working to our strengths. So that was such a bad, bad decision.

And you, by this time, you've been around the block a few times. You've had management, you've had different record labels, you've been in different musical situations. You've been on something as high profile as an Eric Clapton tour. So you're not a novice walking into this. This must have struck you as incredibly crazy. Did you feel, as the new guy, your place to question it and assert your opinion that, guys, this doesn't make any sense by nature.

I'm not particularly a pushy kind of person. Anyone never been very pushy. It took time, I think, for me to. I would question things, of course. Like what, Tommy? Why aren't we playing these hits? Oh, don't worry about it, man. You know, don't worry. I'd be like, yeah. But it didn't seem to make sense to me. But I wouldn't forcefully push anything. I was, after all, the new boy, you know, I kind of knew my place. Yeah. Compared with many people of that era. I'd had a lot of experience in a short time, you know, been to America three or four times with tours and recording with Ross. Done a couple of albums, dealt with big management. I mean, Robert Stigwood, Emmanuel Ross, that was as big as you could get. Managed Clapton and BGS and all this business. And I met him many times and had meetings. But anyway, back to the band. As far as the band were concerned, I didn't want to assert myself too heavily. I very much always have been a Democrat, you know, a team player. Wanted to fit in and. But I would say my piece, don't get me wrong, I wasn't a shrinking violet, but I wouldn't push anything.

Yeah.

When I heard that they'd been. Why had Pete gone in the first place? Well, there was arguments. Oh, really? But now he's back and there still seems to be a bit of an atmosphere. I'd talk to Tommy mainly because I would stop with Tom most of the time and little bits would come out and I'd get. I'd say, right, I see, I see. So by the end of the tour, of course, it all started making sense. That. Right. So all is not really great. I mean, it's great for the half an hour, three quarters an hour on stage. The rest of it, not so much. You know.

Now, as somebody that was there, you can correct me in any misperception, but my take, and I knew Joey and Kathy pretty well for a time and the take that I always got was that it was clear something rotten was going on with their management in Stan Poly in terms of money going missing and they're being kept on these low wage salaries while they're having hit records. And without you is this major money spinner with the Nilsen cover and all this stuff. Something is not making sense and adding up. Kathy was American. She was very forthright, big personality and she knew people in America. She started looking into things, saw they were being screwed, saw that Polly was a criminal and was trying to get them to be motivated and on the same page. Yes, this guy must go. We gotta break ourselves from this deal. Whereas the other end was Pete. Once he invested his loyalty in somebody and his belief, you couldn't shake it. And ultimately, what precipitated him to walk out and leave the band was, I'm not gonna have Kathy managing this band. And as an outsider. And again, you could say how accurate you think this take is. It was like they were misplacing their anger onto the messenger rather than the message. And instead of working up the same anger they felt toward Kathy, toward, yes, Polly's gotta go. It never made sense to me that they would have a problem with the Mullins, but not with Stan. Polly, while this was happening.

I know what you mean. It's kind of hard to. Hard to understand, in a sense. I think it was just a clash of personality, really, the way that messages were delivered and received by the parties. Do you know what I mean? Although the question of was Polly a good guy or a bad guy? Was central to it. It was really that. But I think from what I understand now, it was really that Pete, as I said, it was just the way the message was delivered, I think, and he didn't like it. And maybe he bit back a bit too hard as well. Instead of everyone just saying, calm down. Let's look at this logically and calmly. But no one was in that kind of mood during that period. So I think tempers and emotions were frayed. Yeah. I mean, it's sad, isn't it?

Do you think that Mike and Tommy were a little more cognizant of the bad deal Polly was responsible for and that they needed to break themselves free? Or were they not ready to receive that just yet because they were offended by Kathy coming on so strong?

I think from what Tommy told me, he was kind of in the middle. He did realize he wasn't quite as sold on Polly as Pete was. Pete was always like, give the guy a chance. You know, it'll come right. Tommy was always a little bit more cynical generally, and was a bit like. He had a kind of healthy, I suppose, skepticism about Polly. But he and Pete wouldn't argue about it. You know, they would discuss it, but they wouldn't argue about it. Yeah. I think in answer to your question, I think Mike and Tom, if you put Kathy and Joey on the extreme, like, anti Polly thing, very questioning, very. You know, I think Pete was completely on the other side and the other two were in the middle, but more really on the Joe and Kathy thing of, yeah, I don't think we ought to trust this guy. And he just took time for that message to sink in.

Now, Bill Collins, we haven't mentioned to this point, was the older Liverpool gentleman who had sort of looked after them, ostensibly A manager, but not a businessman. As he told me to my face, I'm not a businessman. No kidding. But he was sort of the paternal figure that they looked up to. Now, was he somebody you had much dealings with and what was your take on him?

I had a lot of dealings with him, yeah, a lot. I mean, when I first joined, his first approach was you'll have to come and live at Park Avenue and live in the house, you know. And I was sort of open to that, except that I realized that wait a minute. But Tommy isn't living there, Mike isn't there anymore, and Pete is just going to move out soon. So I thought this isn't too. Doesn't sound like the way to go. So I had a lot of talks with him, both sort of privately and with the group. I think he was a well meaning guy who'd started out with all the right ideals and, and a lot of faith. His big mistake was really to start playing second fiddle to Polly. Polly came in and then instead of Bill being the go to person, even Bill was going to Polly. So he was just an appendage of Polly's, you know what I mean? Didn't really have an opinion of his own and if anything, he would side with Polly over things.

So he's kind of intimidated, you think?

Yeah, very much so, yeah. Because don't forget, you see, Polly now was the source of the money. So Bill was now being paid. He wasn't getting monies direct as he once did. He's just another person on the payroll. Like we were getting his money from Polly. So he didn't want to bite the hand that fed him, you know.

Yeah.

So I think his allegiance is understandably, I suppose, from a human point of view, but his allegiance is changed and he didn't want to fight our corner with anything.

If I can make a parallel to the Beatles, it would be like if Brian Epstein lived and was suddenly Alan Klein's employee. He's the guy that got him there.

Yeah, that would be a good analogy, yes.

Wow.

Yeah, I mean, you can understand it from Bill's point of view, as I said, as a person, as a, as a human being. He's now being paid by someone else. He's not the big boss anymore, you know, he's got to watch his P's and Q's.

Seems like he's more on an Alan Williams level at this point. He's like he knew him in the early days. What is his real value to the band at this point?

Well, nothing, nothing. And, and that Kind of did blow up. I mean, I went and stopped at Pete's just before he died, actually, and Bill, I was already there and Bill was invited also to have dinner. So we all sat around a table, Pete and Ann and me and Bill, and had dinner at the home. And I remember it got into a bit of a row where I could see the thing for what it was. Pete didn't want to fall out with Bill because they were friends, you know, old friends, and didn't want to argue. I felt that I was the new guy. And even though, as I stated earlier, I was never one to make waves, I did feel there was a point in the conversation where I did. It came up about needing help. And I did say, bill, with all due respect, I don't think you can fight our corner in the same way that you did anymore. And what I said to him, basically, not in a nasty way, I didn't shout. I didn't, you know, but I did say, bill, maybe we need some other ally. And my goodness, he leaned across the table, grabbed me by the lapels. This is in Pete's home. And he wasn't happy, was he?

Wow. He pushed back.

And we said quite quickly, I just said, look, I mean no harm. I'm just saying that we finding ourselves in a spot here, things aren't going well. But he. I can't remember the exact words, but he was very angry with me.

So he's fighting to keep his position, but he's not willing to fight Stan.

Yeah, but I can understand that too. You know, you have to look at everyone's point of view. You'd probably thought, who's this young whippersnapper, this upstart guy from Coventry who's just stepped in and he's telling me that, you know, so I can understand. It was difficult to hear, but it was true and I thought it needed to be said. But anyway, yeah, I knew Bill pretty well even after that. We did get on okay. We spoke many times. Even after Pete's death, we spoke many times. He asked me to go down. He was inventing a new keyboard learning thing and thought I'd be very interested. So we did keep in touch. I mean, it didn't spoil everything that round. But that incident gives you a feeling of the high tension, the high emotion that pervaded all of us, really. I suppose, yeah.

And you were socially aware enough to not overstep your bounds, but you needed to say what needed to be said, if not in the most forceful way possible. You were making it direct and Plain. He pushed back hard, and Pete kind of stepped back and didn't get involved. He didn't weigh in.

Yeah, he didn't get involved. He just stayed quiet. And. And as I said, you know, it did quickly calm down. You know, Bill kind of let me go. And I said, I mean no harm. I'm just. And Bill kind of got over it over the next few minutes. And, yeah, we finished the meal and it was. It was kind of okay.

But it must have been weighing on you to a point to reach that point where you felt you couldn't be silent anymore, seeing what you were saying.

Well, yeah, it just had to be said. It was a difficult time. That's the only way I can kind of justify. Describe it, you know, possibly a few weeks earlier, I wouldn't even have said.

Those things, you know, that's interesting. So things are definitely reaching a. They're coming to a head. Okay.

Yeah. You know, the tension is growing. And by this time, of course, which I haven't mentioned yet, is at the end of the tour, Joey had left. By the time I had that dinner with Bill, Joey had gone. So the tension had built up. And, yeah, people were getting pretty fraught. Yeah.

And it says a ton when the initial loggerheads leading to Pete's departure were between him and the Mullins. Well, the Mullins are not in the picture anymore, and things are still rising in intensity. So let's circle back to the tour. Let's do that some justice. You're brought in, you're rehearsed, it's a five piece. You're going out opening for Men, playing no Pete songs, no hits, which is already kind of a red flag in your head. It's like, this doesn't make any sense at all. But you said that the tour itself was well received. The shows were going down great.

Yeah.

It's a real pity that stuff wasn't recorded.

I know, it's. I can't believe it, because I just can't believe that many gigs. So many people seeing the show. Not one person took any pictures or recorded it. How can that be?

I always understood, man was sort of the UK Grateful Dead. And of course they invite because it's a jamming band and tapes are rolling on every note of music they ever played in front of an audience. So why not that tour?

I agree. I don't get it. But anyway, as far as the tour was concerned, it was great. You know, everyone knew each other. Obviously, I didn't know all those guys, but I quickly got to know them and it was like the Welsh mafia, these two Welsh kind of contingents getting together. And so it was. It was a joyful thing. Yeah, it was fun.

You know, I thought I'd read somewhere that Pete would come out with man for the encore in jam. Was that something that went down?

Not every night, but I think he did. I think that's true to say. I think there was once or twice he did do that. Not on a regular basis, but yeah. Yeah.

Wow. Geez. Amazing. No pictures.

Where's a time machine when you need it?

Oh, my God. Yeah.

Word.

Even. So you guys finish up the tour? How long the tour last? How many weeks was that? Do you have any recollection, roughly?

I think it was about. It was about a month, something like that. Yeah, it was about four weeks.

And ostensibly that would have been because the. The wish you were here album came out in October. So that would have ostensibly been what they would have been promoting.

Yes, that's right. That's exactly it. Yeah.

I will put it on the website when I. When I post this show what the set list was as reported in the without you book the. The peatless bad fingers set of that era.

It may surprise many to look at that and analyze it. And I think if people have got any kind of real sort of interest, they'll ask themselves, well, why? Why would you do that? But of course, as I've explained, it was because of the clash of personalities.

Jaws will drop.

And just the fact that Pete came back was not really enough, you know what I mean? He still had to pay penance.

You know, that's the removal of one's nose to spite one's face.

Yeah, absolutely.

Did you get a sense during the tour it's a five piece. It seems to be gelling musically of Joey's pending disillusion and leaving upon the end of the tour. Did you know it was coming?

No, I didn't know it was coming. But I sensed throughout the tour that relationships with everyone were getting worse. People not talking to each other, that kind of thing. So it wasn't a complete surprise, even though I wasn't expecting it. You know what I mean? It was like one of these things are getting worse, getting worse. And then of course, at the last gig where he just said. And he said it actually at the last gig. And I remember Tommy and I talking outside with him and him saying, well, no, you know, Tommy said, well, come on, man, you know, we could grow from this. I mean, there's something really good here now. And he just said, no, no, no.

Way he didn't want to see him go.

And he did mention. I can't remember his exact words, so I've got to be careful. But he did reference Kathy and said, I'm with my wife or something like that, or it's my wife or something like that. I can't remember exact words. But he referenced her anyway as a reason. As part of the reason why he wasn't going to be stopping.

I've seen you say in other interviews, you got the sense that a lot of what they were feeling personally going on in their lives made it to the music. And it's hard to argue with that when you've got on Wish youh Were Here. And this was granted, recorded months before, before there was the fallout with Pete, before Pete walked out. But almost as though subconsciously, anyway, Joey is tipping his hand.

[Unknown Singer]

I gotta get out of here Gotta be understood I gotta find a place so what will I raise? I gotta know it all don't want to be alone Somewhere I want to be something I really see Gotta get out of here Gotta get out of here Gotta get out of here.

[Badfinger Member]

Gotta get out of here in some other time I'm gonna have to make a new start. It's like the writing is on the wall. And I remember when I became a knowledgeable enough fan listening to his albums, thinking, wow, it's all here. He's saying how this is going to play out. That's heartbreaking. But there it is. I'm wondering if you had that realization at the time he was going on. It's like, boy, these guys are writing about their lives. Or was it something sort of a hindsight observation?

I didn't realize it when I stepped in to the tour because I was only just learning the material. But, yes, obviously, as time went on, I did realize that they all, and particularly Pete, but they all wrote it was very autobiographical. And maybe a lot of fans didn't pick up on that at that point. But, yeah, no, I realized quite quickly when I listened to the lyrics because I had to learn a lot of it, you know, because harmonies and stuff. I was adding just about every song. I sang some. So, yeah, no, it struck me. And that was eye opening, really. It was like, Right. You know, because I was in the middle of it, of course, and thinking, right, I'd not been in a band before that wrote autobiographically. You're dead. Right? It's all there to be, to be seen.

And that must have been stunning as you're learning these lyrics and you're like, this is the story of the situation I'm in. Wow. So the tour finishes and Joey leaves. And as you describe, Tommy's trying to talk him into sticking around and he's like, no, I can't do this anymore. Did you feel it at the time as a heavy loss, like, oh, what's gonna happen to the band now? Or were you kind of confident, well, Pete's here, maybe we can build off of this and we've got a bright future ahead of us.

I was sort of in two minds about it. I realized that Joey was a loss, you know, to not have him there anymore wasn't great. But equally, I was quite confident in a sense that I thought, well, the band's still going to sound great. We've still got all the voices the band had before, you know, all the harmony part, you know, all that bit. So it didn't worry me, if you know what I mean. I realized that it wasn't ideal to have Joey go. I would rather him stay. We asked him to stay even after that thing in the street after the gig. Tommy was in touch with him and I think we even went round to see him. He had a place in sort of central London. Yeah, I mean, we were trying to get him back, but he was like, nah, I've had it. So it wasn't the end of the world for me. I thought, there's still something really good that can come of this. But in a nutshell, yeah, of course I would prefer that he didn't leave. We all wanted him to stay. And in fact, when the thing about the album came up, which is the next kind of chapter, if you want, we asked him again on the phone, you know, please, Joe, would you not consider maybe just doing the album with us, you know, and he was like.

Yeah, he's determined that was.

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[Badfinger Member]

Okay, so the tour ends. You have to be feeling pretty good, at least musically. Although, as you described, there's tensions and Joey leaves. So that kind of, like, is a bit of a jolt. But the bigger one comes when the word comes from Stan. Pauli, you guys have got to go into the studio and make a new album now.

Yeah. Yeah. That was weird because we weren't expecting it. Wish youh Were Here wasn't fully, you know, it was only just time to be promoted. I mean, it wasn't that long since the band had done it.

No. Was that like, what, six weeks?

Yeah. We were very surprised. It was like, what, into the studio and another album. Just couldn't understand the logic of it. So apparently, according to. I didn't ever speak to Polly at that point, but from what I could gather from Tommy and Mike, I can remember Mike saying, stan says, we've got to go into the studio. We can fart on the album if we want. It doesn't matter what we do. He needs that advance, so he needs that advice. Well, we need that advance, but we've got. Just got to go. It doesn't matter what we do. And when we got down to talking about that, we were all very adamant and, you know, not least me to say, well, look, we've got a reputation. The band's got a reputation to keep up. I want this to be great. I don't want it to be second rate. And everyone was in complete agreement with that, you know. But, yes, we were a man down. Psychologically. That wasn't great. We'd realized that this communication with Stan wasn't the best.

You had not met him to this point, right?

No, I'd met him and he hadn't blown up yet. The situation hadn't really blown up. That comes a little later, after the studio stuff. But, yeah, it just wasn't ideal. But there it was. I came back to Coventry thinking, oh, well, I've got a few weeks off now after this tour that, you know, that'd be nice, chill a little. And within a week or two, it's like, no, get back, back on your heads, you know, back down to London. It Was, oh, God, you know. So anyway, yeah, so we had to get it together and we did the very best we could under those very difficult circumstances. Yeah.

So what did this look like initially? Did you guys convene at Denmark street and start bashing out everybody, bringing whatever tunes they've got, and it's like, let's work up some material together.

No, it started with me going to Tom's and Mike coming up from Wales so that we were all in the same place. And for the first two or three days we just talked about it all like, well, what the hell's happening here? And then we decided, well, look, we've got to work some songs up. So Tommy had some little bits of stuff. He said to me, have you got any songs? And I said, yeah, and brought him like one or two sort of mid tempo, ballady type of thing, as he put it to me. I think he said, oh, we've got those. You know, we don't need any of that, we've got all those. But yeah, we want something.

This was the first time you were asked for material because they didn't need any for the tour.

Okay, that's right, that's right. So the first time.

Was it always implicit that you would contribute as a writer?

After Joey left, quite soon after that, I can't remember the exact timing, but very, very soon, the guy said, are you gonna stay? Are you gonna join? And I said, well, are you asking? And you know, if you're asking on dancing kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. So I knew before we went into the studio that I was a part of it. I was again, I wasn't a session man.

Right.

I mean, that's the big difference, I think, between myself and a lot of other people who've been in Badfinger.

Right.

A lot of other people have played and contributed in all kinds of ways, but they have been paid a fee for what they did and that's the end of that. So I wasn't getting any money. I did that tour. I remember just subbing bits of money from Bill when we were in the studio. I wasn't businesslike enough to say, well, what am I going to get out of this? What's it going to be? I mean, I was just so excited to be in the band.

Yeah. There was never any kind of formal partnership agreement that you signed?

No, no. And not even a verbal agreement about money. There was nothing. So I was a little naive, you know, I just sort of, kind of went into it wide eyed. But I was so passionate about music, full stop. Anyway, it was my life and then to be in this position and things were moving very, very quickly. Of course, I was just dragged along on a wave, you know. So, yeah, I went in with no formal agreement other than the guys saying, you're in if you're. If you want to be in, you've got it.

Did you get a sense they auditioned other people?

They told me they had.

Okay. Wow.

That's what they told me. I don't know who, but they said they had.

Okay. I was wondering. So, okay, so you're working up new material. They didn't like your ballads, but you get some turnaround. A great kind of funky track that ended up.

Yeah, it isn't. They didn't like the ballads. It's just that Tom said we don't need any, you know, they're all right, you know, we don't want anybody. We've got plenty of mid tempos and ballads, you know, this up stuff. And so that was why I brought that track in. It wasn't completely finished, but I had the guitar parts. It's something I wrote on guitar rather than keyboard. So it was a bit more rocky than my keyboard writing.

And they must have said, perfect, this is what we need.

Once it was like, yeah, that's it. But it was the first time. Yes, you're right. It was the first time I'd been approached to offer up any material and passed fast.

That was a co write with Tom, wasn't that?

It was. And again, Tommy's wish was, and I was happy to follow his lead was let's make this really kind of dramatic and heavy and you know, not necessarily heavy loud, but a heavy dark atmosphere about it. So yeah, that was a co write. We wrote that up in his attic. Yeah.

That was what I easily could see fitting onto Wish youh Were Here. It's got that kind of dramatic vibe about it, even absent the orchestration and production that was on Wish youh Were Here. It's like that I Saw or Heard is continuing in that line of development for sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you've got these songs, Moonshine, that originate with Mike.

That was a co wrote. What happened there was. Mike supplied the basic verse. I don't think he'd even written two verses, but he had the basic melody and the lyric for a verse. And him and Tommy had been playing around for it. Not got anywhere with it really. But it was Mike's really. But then Tommy said, look, there's this verse of Mike Wasn't There. But he said, there's this verse that Mike's got together, perhaps we can do something with this, you know. And again. So we knocked that around a bit and flashed it out, arranged something and I mainly wrote the middle bit, but me and Tom arranged it between us. Yeah, Mike wasn't present for any of that. He just supplied the verse ahead of time.

Having seen you guys at the gig in 1983 and heard the song that I mentioned earlier, we'll talk about that later. But the first time I really heard you incorporated into Badfinger, the 70s iteration of Badfinger was when Rhino put out that Best of volume two. And there were the four head first tracks on there. And probably like a lot of people I know, I'm not the first person to make this observation. Not a sound alike, but reminiscent or evocative of Steve Winwood. When I heard your voice coming in on Past Fest and some of the other stuff and it's like this is a really, really interesting blend. This is a really cool direction for Badfinger to go down. I can't wait to hear the whole rest of the album. Of course, that would take however many more years after that. Do you know how the actual arrangements, the setup was now Badfinger had done two albums back to back and even a Bit of ass with Chris Thomas, a phenomenal producer with a phenomenal resume. My understanding is it was Polly that brought Kenny Kerner and Richie Wise in to be the producers of this. Is that to say you guys had no say?

No say.

Wow.

No. We weren't even consulted about it.

And to that point, these are guys that are in their 20s that had just produced the first Kiss album.

That's right.

A natural fit.

Not really a great. Not a natural one wouldn't think. No. So that was a bit weird as well to go in. You mentioned about being. Were we kind of ready to do this album and everything about it, you know, not understanding why we were doing it. Joey leaving, being rushed to write material, going in, meeting these guys who we'd never met before, didn't have much in common with, obviously, we just didn't know.

Did you know Kiss at that point?

Yeah, yeah, I did actually. And in fact, one of the Ross gigs that I'd done over in the States, which wasn't part of the Clapton tour, but one of the other tours that I did, a separate tour, we played with Kiss. I'd seen them.

Oh, wow.

I can remember actually, because the dressing room, it was in some sort of theater, but the dressing rooms were on different floors and there was a kind of windy staircase that opened up like a circular corkscrew staircase. And I can remember walking up these stairs and looking over and seeing these guys kissed. Never seen them before, didn't know anything about it. It's like, what the hell is that in full makeup? Who are they? Yeah, yeah, they were. Obviously, they were ready to go on stage, you know, it's like, wow. So. So I did have some knowledge of that, but that was all, you know, so. But yeah, yeah, but as you say, not the most natural pairing to have Kerner and Wise there.

Yeah.

Wow.

And you guys are set up in Apple Studio. Had you ever been there before?

Yeah, I personally hadn't. No, of course the other guys had and, you know, they knew it. But no, for me it was particularly exciting, you know, it was. It's like, wow.

You know where the Beatles worked?

Well, yeah, you know, it's legendary, you know, and as I said, now when I look back, I mean, I didn't analyze it like this at the time, but I'm going in with all these. You wouldn't want to have been in my head, you know, all these kind of problems, no money sorted out, no nothing. Meeting all these strange people in the Beatles studio. I mean, it was. God, it was mind blowing. It was all a bit like. It was really quite odd, you know.

Wow. Yeah, I can't even imagine. I don't know if you've ever seen it, if you've ever checked it out, but you can find it easily enough on YouTube. When they were still the Ivys, there was a promo film for their initial single, maybe Tomorrow, filmed in Apple Studios. So you see young Tommy, young Mike, young Pete in matching suits in that very room.

Yeah, great. Yeah, wonderful.

So people listening to the Head first album, which we'll talk about, there's the two iterations of it, the 2000 release and the brand new one overall, for something you guys had to whip together basically with a gun to your head awfully fast. It holds together, but it's not like.

[Podcast Host]

A lengthy album length album.

[Badfinger Member]

It's a little short wait. What I found interesting was that you had songs they'd passed on. Pete was like a writing machine and after he died there's tons of demo that surfaced which you ended up playing on in later years when the stuff was made public. So did you have any idea at the time that they had a mountain of material and yet this is where they stopped? They didn't develop any of that further that they had in their pockets that they could have used?

The point is, though, the practical fact was that we were only booked into the studio for 11 or 12 days. Whatever it was. It wasn't like, hey, guys, you know, plenty of time kind of thing. It had to be a workman like thing. You know, get into that studio in 11, 12 days time. It's got to be done. That's it.

So it's a hard stop. Whatever you had finished, was that.

That's right, yeah. Whatever it was, even if we hadn't finished it all. That's what it was.

What a crazy working situation.

Well, exactly. I mean, it was just insane and very unnerving. You know what I mean? As I said, our central tenet was that we would. We weren't going to just fart on the record. We were going to do something. We were going to do the best we could do in the time. But it was a rush. We hadn't rehearsed all those harmony parts or even arranged them before. It isn't like we were all, you know, like most bands at the time, or now even. You'd rehearse all your harmony parts, you'd get all your parts down. You know what you're going to do when you go into the studio. We didn't know what we were going to do. When we got in the studio, we were still arranging the songs. And what harmonies can we put on here? And also, remember, we didn't have the luxury of time to do multiple takes of harmony. If something wasn't quite right, we had to just do it. And we knew. And that was a pressure, you know, you knew. Take three. This is about it. We can't do these. We've only got so many takes we can do on these backing tracks and overdubs. So that it was pressured. I mean, it really was pressured, but we just about did it. Just about.

For all that, it's very strong. Astonishingly so. I wonder. You've had to live with it now for 50 years and you've got this intimate reconnection with it as you remix it and remastered it for the new release. But I'm wondering, there's plenty of things you can point to that you wish were on the record that you wish you'd had time to develop. Is there anything you hear on it now that you regret that if you'd had a little more time to finesse, it might have been a little bit better? Or are you pretty satisfied with the fact that you got the best take you could get done at the time? It's as good as it could get.

I'm happy about the quality of it, it's great that we achieved what we did. Of course, if we would have had more time, it would have been better. We might have overdubbed some more parts, made just a better job of it. If we'd have had more Tom, we would have probably routine more songs and chosen the best set out of maybe 15 or 18 of them. But we just didn't have the time. But I'm not regretful about it. I mean, I think we did, in retrospect, I think we did incredibly well. You know, I know that's kind of patting yourself on the back, but I think the band really, we pulled together and we worked hard and there was a lot of self discipline because it wasn't easy in the studio. You know, there were all the business. Things kept coming up in chats. Tensions arose. Not in argument terms, we got on very, very well. The tension from the tour with Joey and so on, that had completely evaporated. So we got on really well as people, but just the pressure. I remember, I don't know whether you've ever heard this, but Pete got so frustrated at one point just tuning guitar that he kind of, he just smashed the guitar. This is in the middle of us trying to make an album, you know, in so many days. But such was the intensity, the height, the height of the emotions. People were all on edge, you know.

And that was completely uncharacteristic. He was not a guy to lose.

Oh, yeah, no, he didn't, he wouldn't. He never did that.

Right.

But it was the tension, I think, of the amount of time we had left. And he was a bit of a perfectionist. He'd like to get things exactly right. There is no real perfection. And it was taking too long. Yeah, it was just taking too long. So, yeah. So anyway, I'm happy, I'm very happy with what we achieved. There's nothing I look at and go, God, we shouldn't have let that go. Just shouldn't have let that go.

That's what I was wondering because to me as a fan, I knew the circumstances that it was recorded under before I heard the entire album. And once I did, it's like, oh, they did it, they got it together. The only thing I'd wish for is more songs. But this is fine. This is astonishingly solid and it really speaks well to how well you blended in that group and having that month long tour on stage performance opportunity to really jealous musicians. There's nothing jarring about it, it meshes perfectly. So it's a great tribute to your Guys, musicianship and just tuning into each other and really finding your way. It's wonderful.

Yeah. And self determination, you know, I mean, to be determined. Even though things would get you down, it was like, no, we've got a job to do and it's got to be done well as well. You know, we can't. No half measures here. We've got to make it as good as we can.

Bring your A game.

I'm really proud of what we did. I mean, what I managed to do on the second. The second Head first, where I mixed it this time I didn't mix the first one myself and my colleague Andy Nixon, a guitarist friend of mine, we mixed and mastered, by the way. Not many artists do their own mastering, but we decided to. It gave us an opportunity, gave me an opportunity to realise some of the things that couldn't be realized on the original sessions. So I was able to manipulate after the fact and put endings where they'd faded off. I could reveal those endings, for instance. Or conversely, I didn't want everything to fade because a lot of those endings were fade endings because it was just like, what do we do? We haven't got time to arranging endings or just faded out, you know. But I had the opportunity last year to do this post, you know, everything else. So add it all there. And I could manipulate parts, parts, little parts, not big parts, but little parts of the arrangement to make them better. And particularly with something like Savile Row, Pete's thing, which was just a fragment, you know, I could build it up just that little bit more and make it more complete. So I'm doubly happy with the latest thing that came that I managed to get out. I think it did fill in any small gaps that we could have perhaps done better.

Yeah, well, we hadn't talked about it, but in terms of material on Headfirst, you've said in other interviews that you sensed that Pete had a lot of pressure on him to come up with a hit single, something that would get airplay to sell the album, and that he came up with Lay Me Down. And of course, we got to hear that on the Rhino best of Badfinger Volume 2. And then the 2000 iteration of Headfirst, which I should point out to anybody knows when that came out in 2000, everybody, every badfinger fan, is thrilled to get the entirety of the Headfirst album. But it was not the ideal source tape. It was a dub, a rough mix, something that you then fleshed out with a bonus disc of other material to make a nice value out of it, which was great. But you had found the believed or said to be missing multi tracks to do the 2024 headfirst. The 50 year anniversary, as it were. The first track I heard, of course, was Lay Me down and you put that beautiful cold ending on it that I didn't hear coming because I'm used to the fade out. It's like, wow, this sounds like it could have been recorded yesterday and it certainly sounds like a 1975 hit single. So I am grateful for you as an artist, sort of reimagining the source material into making it something that, you know, you're not turning this into a 2025 album, but you're making it the best 1975 album it could have been. So thank you for that. It really punches you in the best possible way.

Thank you for those kind words. Yeah, you can imagine. After 50 years and this has been playing on my mind. I mean, it's not like I kind of left the whole Badfinger thing when Pete and Tom died and just forgot about it all. It's been a niggle for years getting this album out properly.

Kinda like now and then for Paul.

Yeah, yeah. So to get it out and actually be able to have a hand in, you know, putting right some of the things that perhaps could have been bettered at the actual time of recording. Like you said, the cold end, making it that bit more dynamic. And yeah, I mean, it's. For me, it's. Yeah, it gives me a sense of achievement. But so thank you anyway. Thanks. Thanks.

Yeah, no, it's great. I was satisfied to have the 2000 version, just to have it at all, and I didn't expect anything further was going to come from it. So to then fully realize it 50 years on was wonderful. It was a great surprise and it's a great sounding record. So I'm glad that, you know, you didn't have the time in 1974 to get it finished the way you would have liked to, but now you've had 50 years to think about it, so you'll be able to act on that stuff.

Yeah, just like you. By the way, I never thought it would come out either. I mean, in 2000 when I just put that rough cassette mix out, I thought that was the end of it. I only put that out of desperation, thinking, well, those tapes are lost, missing, stolen. It's never going to come out, so we'll just have to do this right.

And it should be said that in 74, you guys get through the album, you get your two weeks, and you finish the album, it's delivered to Warner Brothers, they reject it, not necessarily because of anything they're hearing on the tapes, but because of the bad stink of what's going on with Badfinger and their manager.

Yeah. And what a blow that was to have that rejected. You know, it was like, oh, after all that and you're rejecting the album.

But, yeah, unbelievable. So we've got it out now. And it was one of those mystery pieces of the puzzle to this time when that happened, when you got this album handed back to you. I know through the years you've described that, but Warner Brothers pretended or said to you, well, we don't know what happened to the tapes. You guys never got them back. So what was it that made this the white whale to you that you were on your mission to track down and do right by? Was it just something that you. At some point. Well, I'm not going to take their word for it. I need to look deeper.

Yes. I've got to be careful. I'll answer this. It had always been on my mind. I found reason to believe that they were in existence because I noticed one or two things on YouTube, YouTube that were remixed. And I realized that, well, wait a minute, if these things are remixed, someone's remixed them from something. So that led me eventually to contacting Warners to thrash it out. And in thrashing it out, the first thing I had to overcome was never mind whether they existed or not the tapes. But it was like the legal position, because I'd already been threatened by Warners in the year 2000 when I got the first rough mixes out. I was threatened with court action then.

They threatened you over that in 2000, but the 90s version on rhino was okay. Or did they threaten them over that as well?

What they did there was they contacted us at the time, well, me and said, we want to put these four tracks out. I don't think they actually asked my permission. I think they said something to the effect there won't be any royalties or something, but it'll be great exposure, you know, be great extra for Badfinger fans. And I was a bit teed off about it, to tell you the truth. I thought, well, if you're gonna, why can't you release the album? You know? But in the end, again, I was left with a kind of Hobson's Choice, thinking, well, if I try and kick up a stink, first of all, it's me against, you know, it's David and Goliath. And anyway, they have a point, you Know, if these don't come out here, they'll never come out. But then when I did put the album out in the 2000, I got the big cheese at Warner Brothers ringing me and threatening legal action. The same, you know, and me arguing the logic that, well, look, you didn't.

Pay for the album, they didn't accept.

I mean, you rejected. You didn't accept the album. And it's like, we're Warner Brothers, don't argue with us. I mean, that's terrible to say, but that's a fact. I was with this Snapper record label. I'd arranged this thing and they pressed all these albums up.

So you were on the hook.

I mean, that was worrying. Absolutely. So there had to be a lot of negotiating, not by me. I had to get leak. I had to get the MU in Britain over here, Musicians union, to talk to Snapper, to talk to Warners. And a big thing went on to get me off though.

Sounds like they were used, throwing their weight around, but it doesn't sound like they had a leg to stand on in that they rejected it and never paid for it.

Yeah, I mean, I was really annoyed about that. I don't blame Warner Brothers as a company. It was the particular individuals involved. But those individuals were like bullies in the playground, you know.

Right. And it seems like be their default position when anybody comes around wanting to do something that potentially is taking money out of their pocket.

Yeah. So in 2000, I realized that I had to get the legal thing. I'd escaped once, but my lives were limited. So I went to the MU again, brought up the whole situation again, sought legal advice and I then had to argue it out. And this took, I think it was eight, nine months with a Warner Brothers lawyer in the States writing emails, the MU writing me, writing blah, blah, blah, and just trying to win the argument that they didn't own it. But it took that long.

Was this before the work was done?

Yes, I waited until I got full permission from Warners and then I st. Yeah. And then I started to work. Yeah, I did everything by the book, Robert.

It must have been thrilling to discover. Here's the tapes. After all this time, after all I've been told, I've got them.

Mind blowing. Absolutely mind blowing. I could not have imagined two years ago from now, I could not have imagined that I'd be sitting here talking to you. And with the record out, I just couldn't. It was. It wasn't possible. It was impossible.

Right. He had no reason to think it was going to happen.

I was always led to believe that those tapes were stolen, missing and basically not in place in the warehouse where.

They should have been.

That's where I was always led to believe. But eventually I found out from Warnes that, oh, well, we have found them now.

The album is rejected. You guys are devastated. After all the hard work you did at the end of 74, you're now in this sort of period. It turns to 1975. What's going on with the band? And did you guys have any kind of plan, like, what's our next move? Or are you just like, in this limbo of. Our label won't put out the record and we're beholden to this criminal manager that is treating us so badly. What's the move? Did you consider leaving at that point?

Well, no, I didn't consider leaving, no, no, that would. No, that never even entered my mind. But certainly there was. The money had all stopped for all of us because I was. By now, I was on the payroll as well, just like the other guys. But our allowances stopped. We got together. I went down to London again two or three times. We all talked through it and kind of ground our tears in our drinks. And so I said, what are we going to do? We arranged to see some managers and people in the business. We went to see Derek Taylor. Pete was there as well, but at this point, obviously, you know, we all went to see him. Was there anything he could do? We went to see a guy, I think Bill Curvishly, I think his name was.

Oh, the who's manager.

Yeah. Who else did we see? We saw a few people. But essentially what happened was they all listened carefully, sympathized and said, well, when you get out of all this mess, you come back and we'll get something going.

They couldn't help you get to that point, but they're happy to take you out when you're out of the. When your leg is out of the trap.

Yeah, yeah. No one wanted to, I guess, you know, to be fair, from an outsider's point of view, this sounded very, very messy indeed. And why would they want to get involved in all that?

You know, see, you didn't find a champion. There was nobody like, I'll do this battle for you.

We found no one. And that was the problem, really, that we found no one. By this time, of course, Peter had moved into his house with Anne, who was expecting their kiddie, and he couldn't pay his mortgage. I mean, we were all in the same position of not having any money coming in But I think he had, after all those years living in that bedsit while writing all these hits and being worth on paper, a lot of money really. He should have been. He'd moved into a house that he couldn't pay for and he'd only just moved in. For him it was even. I mean we were all terribly depressed about it, but he was even more depressed, if you see what I mean. There's pressure of a kiddie on the way and payment for the house and what was he going to do? His sense of kind of decency and you know, to his family kind of thing, you know, and it was awful for everyone. But he caved in, you know, he just caved in.

And during this period where he, his money, his income has dried up, it stopped. What I've read is that he'd been trying desperately to get Polly on the phone and Polly wasn't taking his calls.

That's exactly right. Yeah, he tried many times and they got through to people like Stan Poses. Another guy worked there.

He was no longer in a partnership or an associate with Polly by that time. Right. He'd gone his own way.

That's right.

Because of what he recognized as this is bad, I gotta get out of this.

They definitely tried. Pete tried many times. I think Tommy tried too. I'm not so sure, but I know Pete did because he told me. And he could just never get through. You know, messages were taken and never returned. So you can imagine that how the angst was building up and building up and this depression was getting. He couldn't handle it anymore.

There were people that described him putting out cigarettes on his wrist. Did you ever witness that?

I think I'm the one who remembers that. Oh, I don't think anyone else has ever said it, but. But yeah, I saw it. I saw it more than once. I can remember one particular time then when Tommy had a get together, a bit of a party and Pete did it there and I was like, what did he just do? You know, and that shocked me, you know, it's like that's not normal, that's self harm. That's just a bit odd, right?

Like cutting yourself.

Yeah, it's. It's just. Yeah, so. Oh God, it was awful. Yeah, it was awful.

But you got that visit you described with Bill at Pete's house. How did that all happen? Was that. That was pretty close to the end when that happened.

It was, yeah, Pete had invited me down. I mean Bill came around just for that evening for a dinner. Pete had invited me down.

I don't know why it was uncharacteristic.

It makes me. Well, I mean, I'd never. I'd got to know him on the tour, in the studio, obviously, but we hadn't mixed socially one to one like that. I'd mix more with Tommy like that because I was stopping at his house most of the time. But Pete just sort of said, well, we've got some free time. Why don't you come down? And I said, well, that's. Wow, that's great, man. I think I was there about four days, something like that. And it makes me wonder now, I didn't question at the time, did he have it in his mind that, like, he was. You know, they say people say their goodbyes. You know what I mean? Before, did he already have it in his mind that I'll get together with people, I'll say, bob, I'll see Tarmal. I don't know. Maybe not. I don't know. But it was weird, the timing that he invited me down, stayed a few days, and then very shortly afterwards, that was the end of that.

Right. And was there anything you read after the fact about his demeanor or anything that gave you pause?

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Badfinger Member]

Now I see this is what he was saying to me.

The one thing that sticks out. I mean, we stayed up a couple of the nights jamming and drinking and singing, like the girls went to bed sort of thing. But we stayed up and we talked a lot about business, about music, but, you know, just general. Two friends might, you know. But I remember there was one thing where he took me into his garage bit where he had his little studio, and he played me this song and I'd never heard it before. And it really stuck with me because the lyrics stuck with me.

[Unknown Singer]

Me.

[Badfinger Member]

I asked to hear it a couple of times. He played it and I said, this demo. And I said, play that again, you know.

Watch the cross you to tomorrow.

While this smile city Fine.

Take me back to the country.

Let.

[Unknown Singer]

Me, let me, let me roll.

[Badfinger Member]

For.

I can't bear to feel the sorrow.

This was this ringside song at the time, of course. I just thought, well, that's a really heartfelt song, you know. But of course, in retrospect, once he died, it was like, oh, that song. And you read that lyric again. It couldn't be more autobiographical, Watching you suffering go down, you know.

Right. You're flailing.

Yeah, yeah. I realized after his death. I didn't realize it actually at the time. So that's a really good example, I think, of the realization afterwards of, oh, my God, that song, and it did Stoke. I could remember. I could remember the tune after he died and everything. And part of the lyric and think, oh, God, yeah. You don't realize at the time, you know, you don't.

Again, to circle back to your autobiographical nature of the songs. He's got Keep Believing on Headfirst, which by all accounts addressed to Joey wishing him well. And then the two songs, two songs from Tommy addressing Polly, Mr. Manager and Rock and Roll Contract. Very direct about what's going on in their lives. Clearly everything going on around him is informing their art. And then you've got the song Ringside that you referred to. I think there might have been others too, but that was the one that he particularly sing out for you. And you think that maybe he was tipping his hand a bit about his despair at that point?

Yeah, well, he plainly was, but I didn't see it. And as I said, to repeat something I said a few minutes ago, we were all not at our best, you know what I mean?

He didn't think he was exceptional except for the action that he subsequently took.

I mean, I didn't foresee that. I knew he was down, I was down, Tommy was, you know, we were all down and pissed off, but. And it's that sort of thing, you know, where you just think, God, if I only had. I think it's a thing that a lot of people think after someone's died, committed suicide.

And I think in particular, Tommy labored under that burden very much so, over many years. Very much so, as the last guy to be with him.

Yeah.

So I talked to him later and I said, what, What. What's on your mind? You know? And he said, well, this situation, man, I don't think it's very good. I said, well, everybody knows that. Just waiting for you to realize it, you know. So he said, I think I want to do something about it. So I phoned the manager up, or his device manager kind of thing, who was more aware of what was going on. And he said, yeah, he was going to leave, this manager that we had. He said, yeah, you're getting. You're getting robbed. I'd advise you to leave. And this. This was spoken to directly to Peter, you know. So the next night, it's like 10 o'clock, he said, let's go out for a drink. I've decided. So we go in a pub, the road there, and the English closing hours closed at 10:30 last drinks. And he drunk about 10 scotches in that time. And I said, look, what's wrong? He Said, well, I've decided let's go back to your house and call this guy up and tell him it's all over. So we came back and talk some more and he phoned him up and the guy more or less said, well, you know, you're in too deep now. If you want to get out, you try it, you know, kind of thing. So it was down to a whole band situation getting together and trying to figure it out. So I dropped him off about 3 in the morning. We tried to write a few songs and the last thing he said to me is, I'll see you again. And at 5 o'clock his wife gets on the phone to me screaming, and Peter's dead, you know, So I went there and she hadn't phoned the police. And that's all I know.

Did he talk about that much with you?

Yeah, we talked about it. Yeah, we talked about it. I don't know whether I want to say too much more about that, but sure, yeah, he was very, very cut up about it. Very sad about it, obviously, because I guess in Tom's he had that final chance to have kind of maybe pulled Pete back from the edge, you know what I mean? And he didn't take it.

The burden of everyone who has had the loss of someone close to them. Certainly when Mel Evans, the following year had his bad episode and there were plenty of people saying, oh, you know, I wish I'd had that moment to talk to him one more time and I could have talked him down from that tree, but was not to be.

Well, I feel like that myself about Pete. I didn't see him on the last night like Tommy did. And Tommy would have heard a much more depressed Pete than I heard. Even with me, I think, God, if I'd have got on the phone to him, if I'd have only why didn't I see it? Or why didn't I ring him, you know?

Yeah, no, there's no peace to be found in torturing yourself over the events you had no control over. So we move on. That was the end of Badfinger at that point. But you reconvened with Tommy, joined or formed the Dodgers. I'm not sure exactly how that happened, but both of you guys were in that act. Another pop band, another rock pop band in 76.

I want to say something like that.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. How did that get started? Were you guys the originators or were you joining an existing band or you found other people and decided to do that?

What happened was a friend of ours, Tim Boyle, who was a sort of sound man. Come. Manager, you know, friend, more than all those things. He came to Tommy one day and said that Ireland. He'd been down to Ireland and Ireland were looking for someone to complete a band. They were trying to get together. They had two guys, but they needed another two guys and would they be interested? Tommy talked to me about it and I just said, well, I guess we ought to go down and see him then, you know, let's. Should we investigate it, maybe we weren't doing anything else. So, yeah, let's have a look, you know. So that was it, really. There wasn't an existing band as such.

I see. Okay.

But there were two other guys and we kind of got together with them, jammed along at Ireland and found it. Yeah, you know, there's some common ground here.

[Unknown Singer]

There be no sense and crossing reasons with my pride But I got a picture show you that my love is true that I get these feelings of my heart But I can't see the way too clear before I know.

[Badfinger Member]

Yeah, that was it, really.

And so they issued a couple singles before the album. But at some point, Tommy got pushed out of the band, is my understanding. Do you know what was going on, why that happened?

I know exactly why it happened. That was a management decision. And the management. We had a. We had these, like a young. They were younger than us, I think a young. Go ahead. Management team who decided that Tom had to go. They didn't like his demeanour, generally mentioned. His drinking was mentioned, but I never saw that as being. Tommy never got out of it so much that he didn't function, you know what I mean? As far as I was concerned, he was fine. It was a shock to me when they said it. I wasn't told by them directly. The other two members of the band told me and it was put to me that they want him out. And I said, oh, that's terrible. Well, we're not going to do that, are we? And it's like, well, if we don't, we're not going to get this album completed and we're not going to get that out. And of course the money will stop, our wages will stop. And I was like, oh, my God, what, is there no talking to the management round? We went to see the management. No, there was no talking around. That was it. Tom was out. I said, he's my friend, I don't like this. And in any case, I think he's. He's a talented writer, He's a talented guy, you know, I don't Want to get rid of him? Well, he's going. So I was left with a really terrible, horrible, rotten choice of do I keep my job, keep getting paid? And we're on the verge, you know, we've got this deal with Ireland. Or do I say, tom, they're going to kick you out. So I'll leave as well, mate. You know. Was it the right thing to do? I don't know. But in the end I sat quiet while they sacked him. I couldn't even say a word. I just didn't know what to do. I felt kind of weak. I still feel weak about it, you know, I shouldn't really just left the band, but I didn't have any money, you know, what was I going to do?

Yeah. So how long did you stick around? Because you ended up leaving as well, didn't you? Eventually.

Well, I ended up getting kicked out.

Oh, Jesus.

By the management. Wow.

Okay. Well, I guess what was meant to be.

Yeah, I ended up getting pushed out as well because now I became. They didn't like my attitude.

You got a drink for two of them.

They didn't mention my drinking because. Yeah, I mean, I used to have a drink, but it. No, they just didn't like me. They just. And they tried to. The big thing was they tried to change the direction of the band. They wanted us to be more like Foreigner, they said. And I said to the guys, well, if they want to band more like Foreigner, why don't they go and get Foreigner? You know, we're the Dodgers. We write what we write, we play what we play. If anyone makes any decisions about this band, it's us. Surely, guys, it's us, isn't it? You know. But no, it wasn't. So I got pushed out exactly the same way Tom did. Great. There's no business lecture.

So 7879. Joey ends up in the situation with a couple guys from Chicago and that leads directly to them bringing in Tommy after they need a bass player. The one they had didn't work out. So next thing you know, they got a deal with Elektra. Airwaves comes out. It's Badfinger Mark 2, because that's the brand the label insists on. You're not part of that. But at some point subsequent to the follow up album, which is say no More, which ends up being the final Badfinger album, you're brought back into that orbit. How did that happen?

Well, the way I got back in was Tommy contacted me, incidentally. In the meantime, I just. Little slot this little thing in Tommy and I also joined a band called Cheetah which was an Australian thing just as session players, that's all it was but we'd done that as well so that's just a little interjection there too.

So that made it to vinyl.

No it didn't. We were promised an album deal but. But it never happened. It was two girl singers who were managed by ACDC's management writers so it didn't work out. We did a lot of rehearsing anyway. So how did I get back into that orbit? You were asking. Tommy contacted me, said I'm in the States, would you consider coming over? You know. So I said well, gosh, you know, it's been. I mean, I was delighted he contacted me. I think that was the first time we'd spoken in a very long time. We had spoken because we'd done the Cheetah thing which I just mentioned I had been in touch with him but it was great to be asked back to play with him again and I said look, of course I'm interested. So I gathered at this point by talking and discussing everything that he and Joey had fallen out toward the end of this second Radio Records was it album?

Yes, say no More. Haha.

Yeah. They'd had a fallout so Tom said I'd like to just reform that, you know, I've got Mike here, get you in, maybe even get Joe in maybe. Would you come over? And I said I'll come over, what's the deal, what's the money, what's happening? And he said well there's this guy, this John Cass guy and blah blah blah blah blah blah. I said look, I'll come over but I want a return ticket. I said because if this goes pear shaped I don't want to be stranded, man, you know. He went I'll sort that. And he did, he sorted that. So I came over with the promise of doing three month. I think it was tour or. No, it was 16 weeks maybe. Anyway, that was the promise. I was coming over to rehearsing the band with the promise from Cass, the new contact manager that we would do all these gigs. So that's how.

And Tony Kay was in the band still at that point.

No, Tony, Tony wasn't there then. It was me, Mike, Tom, another guitar player called. I know him so well. It's the brain cells, they're dying.

Yeah, we'll circle back.

Yeah, yeah. Oh that's. That's just awful. I can't remember. I'll remember in a minute, I just. Anyway, so it's the four of us. Yeah.

Okay. And this is for live dates?

Yeah, Tony wasn't involved in that.

Okay.

So this was the tour where I went over. We rehearsed at Mike's place initially. Well, his girlfriend's place at that point. And then we went over to Milwaukee and we sat in a show home for weeks, weeks and weeks, months. And we only did about five or six gigs and we starved. We had no money and things started to get really ratty between us and the so called manager, Adam Allen. By the way, Adam Allen was the guitar player. So yeah, you probably know all about that. But yeah, that was really very, very, very depressing. And we eventually had to kind of do like a movie, Escape from Milwaukee, you know, Tommy borrowed some money, of course I had the money. The rest of the guys kind of went, understandably. Mike went back with his girlfriend to Detroit. The roadies went. Adam Allen went and it was me and Tom and could I leave him? I couldn't leave him. I had the return ticket, but I couldn't leave him. So I stayed. And eventually we managed to borrow some money off some people to get him back.

So then at what point do you reconstitute the band that ends up the version in 83 that I saw with Tony Kay and the other guys?

Well, after that, after that too ended, we went home and sort of regathered our. Got our heads together yet again. And an agent over there sort of contacted us and said, look, I can definitely get you some dates. Not like that other loser guy before. I'll get you some dates. Would you come over again? So we said, okay. So then he got a couple of guys from la, I think they were, that was Donnie Dacus and Reed Kaling. That was two other Americans. So Tom and I got our harmonies together, contacted Mike, got the two guys in, Donnie and Reid, and we sat out again. Let's do it again. Halfway through that tour, of course, we were served with Ritz. Me and Tommy were. Because from the old manager. We were in a rehearsal room one time and a voice says, tommy, Bob. And I went, oh, yeah, yeah. He went, bob, Bob Jackson. Yeah, yeah. Put his hand out to shake my hand and suddenly there was like papers in my hand. It's like, oh, no, it's a writ, isn't it? So we had to complete the rest of the tour with all that worry and stuff and just mad. So then that kind of ended. We went back home again, licked our wounds and then another tour was, what.

Were you being served over? What was the beef?

Because we'd gone home early. We'd only stayed 12 of the 16 weeks. And the guy was trying to say you broke the contract. But our point was, yeah, we signed a contract with you, but you were supposed to be getting us gigs and we couldn't live. He was like, yeah, well, you know, but you broke the contract. I mean. And he was for millions, by the way, because Tommy had also signed side contracts with impersonal contracts. We all signed work contracts, but Tommy had done a. A one to one thing. That was silly of him. So silly. And so he was sued for the bulk of the money. I think he was sued for 4 million or something separately. And then the three of us were sued for the extra million. I thought I was going to have my house taken off. My wife was at home in Coventry and I rung her and she said, there's men coming around the house and they're taking notes of the furniture and like a lien on the house. I mean, it. It doesn't, you know. So anyway, so we went home again, as I said, got ourselves together again. Another offer of another torture we went over. This time Tony's involved. Tommy says to me, look, I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to get Tony involved as well, you know, still on you, of course, you know. But Tony, he was like, oh, okay, that's going to be a bit weird. So he said, well, you can play more guitar on me, you know, like you did before, you know, it's like, okay, well, I can.

So now, had you met him before, Tony K?

Never met him, no. No, never met him before. And there were the two other guys as well, who were great guys. Two American guys. They were great fun, that band in particular. We were so. It was so harmonious. We got on really great. Everyone had the same kind of silly sense of humor. We had a lot of fun.

Yeah, it was a great gig. It stayed with me all these years.

Yeah. I don't know whether you picked that up from the gig, but, you know, we were loose with it. It was fun. It was a bit of fun, yeah.

So talk about I won't forget you oh, yeah, yeah. How did that come about? What was the impetus and when was that written?

It was written for Pete. We had some songs to. I'm trying to remember exactly when it was written. What year was that written? I think it was written right at. Towards the end of the Dodgers, because Peter died in 74, I think we were recording well, I was in the Dodgers with Tommy in 76, seven or something like that.

Yeah. Pete was 75. April 75.

Ah, yes. Yeah, yeah, that's right. So it's a couple of years after he died. But I just decided one day to. I was writing a few things and I'd kind of got into this autobiographical thing as well. And many of my songs from. From that time onwards. I mean, it influenced me greatly, the whole Badfinger experience. Putting down your feelings and kind of exorcising all that angst and getting it out in lyrics. So, yeah, I wrote it for Pete. It kind of hung around for a long time. I just had it on a home demo, you know.

Yeah, I'm glad that it's gotten the circulation that it has that you guys performed it live. It stayed with me upon the single hearing and I of course found it later on on YouTube. But that was a long time in between.

We never did a proper version of it. Did another sort of Demons states of it, like a produced. Well, even that was like a demo, really. But he never got a proper release, you know, it never got recorded properly and released properly.

[Unknown Singer]

Go through my head, how could I ever never.

[Badfinger Member]

It's still in the back of my mind, you know, whether I to try and do something with it. Because it should be out there, really, as part the kind of Bad Finger body of work, I think.

Sure. Part of the canon. Absolutely.

But who knows?

So that tour ends and you're both back in England. Was there any indication of what was going to happen with Tommy that you picked up on?

I knew he was getting lower and lower. We had some talks on the phone where he said, look, let's continue to work together. Our idea was that we were going to try and get a studio each. In fact, we'd done this thing in the States. I think the management called Goodfinger, which we just weren't in favour of at all. But anyway, it was just a recording project, no shows. And the idea from that was we were going to get a studio each out of the advance monies. It never quite happened, but we were set on working with each other going forward. But a deal was never realised from that, from those demos. So Tommy said to me after the last tour, look, why don't we just forget this name Badfinger? Let's just forget it, you know. And I was like, well, is that a good idea? And he said, well, you know, so much angst, so much. It's just bad, you know. He said, let's just get a band together in England, put it on the road and move forward like that. And I Can remember saying, well, look, I'm certainly not against it. It'd be great. I said, but we'd have to build a thing up and what about gear and stuff, you know, I mean, you're talking if you're going out as a no name, we wouldn't have a big pa. We wouldn't. And he was like, yeah, I know that, but we'll get one, you know. And so basically we had two or three of these sorts of talks. I was behind it, but I was just pointing out that it's not going to be easy, this, if we don't call it Badfinger.

Right. Starting with square one.

Yeah. He was like, no, I've just had it, you know, I've just had it with being Bad Finger, you know, it's horrible. And that was really the last thing that we ever discussed on the phone. I'd been speaking to him fairly regularly. How long after the last call was it that he died? I guess it's got to be maybe a week or two. Not too long after, not too long after. So as far as I was concerned, my understanding was, yes, we were going to carry on. Whether it was Bad Finger, he was definitely getting lower. He would tell me some of the problems he was having on the legal level about trying to get monies.

Apple being up there as the publishing and all these monies that hadn't been sorted out.

And from what I can gather, they had to agree between themselves. I mean, Collins and the band members and all the rest of it. They had to agree on shares, blah, blah, blah, before they could approach Apple to get a payment. They couldn't go. I kind of could just give me my bit, you know what I mean? It wasn't going to work like that, right.

They had to have a united front.

So I know from Tom that he was having. He was sort of over a period of. On the tours as well. He would talk about, like, well, maybe if I make an alliance with Mike and then we go against so and so and. Or maybe if I make a lunch with Bill. And he was constantly worried about it. How could he turn it round? Meanwhile, of course, those guys, they were in an alliance themselves, in a sense, against Tommy. So it was a difficult time for him. I mean, I knew that. But again, bit like Pete, I didn't see. I didn't foresee what was going to happen. So it was a shock. That was a terrible, terrible second time round, you know, that was bad.

I found out myself months after it happened because there was no reporting and it was in Trouser Press magazine that I found out about it, like it happened in November. I think I found out early the next year or something. I could not believe it. I couldn't believe a guy that I stood there, having signed my album, was gone just like that.

No, it was really. No, it's just dreadful. I mean, yeah, I'd been through that. I'm the only member of the band actually, that went through both of those deaths, you know. Cause Joe wasn't in the band when Pete died. Oh, it was horrible.

After the 74 tour and what you described earlier about going to see him, did you see Joey again? Did you guys ever cross paths?

Yeah, we did. Me and Tommy went round to see him on one of the tours. We went round to his house and we were asking him if he kind of just raising. We didn't ask him outright, but we raised the thing, you know, what about getting back together, you know. And he was like, well, I'm not sure, man. Not too long after that, he started going out on his own as Bad Finger. So there was for a while. Of course, as history will tell you, it will tell anyone. It was me, Tommy and Mike in One Bad Finger. We started going over there and then Joey starts up his Bad Finger with Joey in it. So we had tried to get him in with us again, but it really wasn't interesting.

Do you have any kind of sense of what the beef was between him and Tommy that precluded them from working together after the second album?

I have got an idea, but I don't really want to go into it, to be honest.

Okay, fair enough. So would that have been the last time you saw Joey then, about 40 years ago?

No, the last time I saw Joey was when me and Mike, after Tommy's death, invited him back into the band. Me and Mike invited him back because of course, it had been me, Tommy and Mike. Tommy dies, so then I almost have a nervous breakdown. But a year down the line, two years down the line, whatever, yet another promoter comes up and says, would you do another Bad Finger tun. I said, I really don't know. You know, I really don't know. I'm not sure. I wasn't doing anything at all. I wasn't even playing. And they said, well, look, there's you, there's Mike. Why don't you invite Joe Mullen back in? And I said, well, I don't know. I don't know. Talked to Mike about it and he wasn't sure. But anyway, we did okay. We invited him back in and he Said, yeah, I'll join.

Great.

So that was great, wasn't it? We invited him back in, but it only lasted one tour. And we promised to see each other again, but we didn't.

Final thoughts on Joey as you know him.

My final thing about Joey is he was a very valuable member of Badfinger. He was much missed. I wish he'd have joined us when we asked him back for the album when Pete was alive. I wish he'd have joined us when me, Tommy and Mike asked him. And I think there was a lot more that we could have done as a unit. Yeah, he was, you know, I mean, he fitted in perfectly, didn't he? He was such a valuable member. I'm sad to see him go, I really am.

I presume you were interviewed for the Dan Menavita book without you? Did you ever read it and do you have any thoughts on it?

I did read it. I was interviewed for it at the time. I thought it was a fair representation at the time, but in hindsight, there are things about it that I'm not so happy with.

Okay, so there's room for somebody to come along and do a revised history that gets things more accurate.

We'd say, oh, yeah, Death.

Good to know. Hopefully that will be your memoir.

[Unknown Singer]

We've got a long, long time between us, us Got a long, long way to go Got a long time got up Long way to you all Love will grow.

[Badfinger Member]

Something about the Beatles created and hosted by Robert Rodriguez, executive producer Rick Way. Title song performed by the Corgis Something about the Beatles is an evergreen podcast.

[Unknown Singer]

It's over now you gone away there's nothing left for me to say I.

[Badfinger Member]

Tell myself I shouldn't be still the.

[Unknown Singer]

Thought if you were there Burning, burning bright Shining through the night I'm not over you oh, no I'm not over you oh, no I'm not over you oh, no I'm not over you.

[Badfinger Member]

I.

[Unknown Singer]

Stood beside you every day.

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This is Lawrence Lanahan, journalist, musician, and host of Rearranged, an Osiris Media podcast about music arranging. Once a song is written, arrangers make musical decisions that shape how we end up hearing the song. We're not just talking about adding orchestral accompaniment, like horns and strings, or doing a cover version of a song. Arrangement can be putting happy music over dark lyrics, using samples, recording all acoustic, even tiny decisions, like putting an electronic loop into an acoustic song to draw your attention to an important turn of phrase. It's all arranging. Rearranged Episodes are documentary essays where I use arrangements to answer some big questions. Like, what is a song, and what can a song become? And how can the sound of a song change the meaning you take from it? Listening this way has changed my relationship with music. Tune in to Rearranged, and maybe it'll happen for you, too. Learn [e-mail] Osiris.

[Badfinger Member]

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[Badfinger Member]

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[Badfinger Member]

So what, you're doing a podcast?

Yeah, doing a podcast. So don't fear if you hear a foreign sound to your ear.

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[Badfinger Member]

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