Sean Murphy (2:52)

Yeah.

John Lennon/Paul McCartney (Beatles audio clips) (2:53)

And it goes for us too. We've been affected by them, permanently affected By Elvis Presley permanently affected by. Whoever it is. You're affected by scars to prove it. Going back again to the early 1960s when, when you first achieved your. Your outstanding success. Things were very different in the world then. The world of popular music and the world of youth, weren't they than they are today? But it's going to be the ch. It's just change, you know, everything changes. Everything was different then, so there's no sort of specifics about it. The whole thing's continually changing, so we can't really comment on why one particular man had a pair of white trousers on in 1933. There's nothing to say about it, but it happened. Wrap Up Ad Lib Close to script. Yes, we go back to copy now, but the changes that did occur in those years, how would you describe the kind of change? Was it the waking of a sleeping giant? We talk about young people and we talk about the fact that so much has awakened on the scene of life for young people. Well, you know, I mean, none of us know what it is. I don't think anyone knows what it is, you know, I mean, it's just. It's life, you know, you just. You appear to grow up from there to there. And we started off, you know, in leather jackets churning away on the guitars. And it went through all, you know, a lot of phases till it got here, you know, and that's all we can say about it. I don't know what happened. Yeah, you can't say exactly what. How can you say. Went on, you know. Do you think that seven, eight, nine, ten years ago that. That young people were less awake to. I think they're becoming more aware each generation. You know, I don't know whether it'll end at some point and go back to the start, but it seems to be going that way. More aware. Yeah. More new experiences all the time. Well, of course, more aware. But no one, no one's quite sure what it is that they're aware of, but they're aware of it. Yeah, whatever it is, you know, it's very. It's one of those things you can't. You can't talk about because it gets into a hope. One of those things you can't put your finger on, you know, there you can. So let's wrap up Ad lib Close.

Robert Rodriguez (5:21)

Hello and welcome to episode 310 of Something about the Beatles Podcast. Now, if the title of this episode, the Beatles Legacy seems a bit broad or vague and you're not really sure what it's meant to be about. Let me give you a little bit of backstory first. You might have recently heard a conversation on another podcast called Some Things Considered, hosted by my friend Sean Murphy, who was a writer. And that was not really a Beatle conversation. That was us just kind of riffing on creativity and our career paths and how we got to the place that we're at now through our passions for writing and in my case, the Beatles and whatever else, and just how it gets expressed over an array of platforms. But it led me to thinking back to when I first did my first Beatle book, Fab 4 FAQ. That was me coming up with a book title that didn't have the word Beatles in it because I didn't want it to get lost in the shuffle. I wanted to stand out a little bit more. And FAQ was this idea I had where rather than from one extreme being dense, scholarly, impenetrable works on one end and the other being lightweight, anecdotal sort of hearsay, not fact based books that were out as well, I wanted to do something that sort of deconstructed the Beatles story, where each chapter was a topic unto itself. So depending on what aspect of their career you're interested in, you could seek out that chapter and find a deep dive into whatever it was, you know, concerts or their films or songs where not all four Beatles were on there, or guest appearances from other artists on Beatle records. Whatever it was, that was how that book was put together. And it ended up being so successful and popular with the publisher Hal Leonard that they wanted to expand it into a full blown series covering other acts and then eventually other topics, everything from baseball to UFOs to film noir, you name it. So as part of my duties as the series editor, I was tasked with finding writers to contribute books. So to that end, we're talking the early 2000s. Now. I was scoping out all these blogs and places where deeply knowledgeable people were writing about whatever their passion happened to be. And that was how I found an awful lot of the writers for the FAQ book series when I first started. But I also made some friends that way. And one of them was Sean Murphy. He's got this podcast, as I mentioned, called Something's Considered a Writer, who was doing a lot of rock stuff, but he has written plenty of other books, including Please Talk About Me When I'm Gone, which was a memoir of his mother's five year battle with cancer, which coincidentally came out about a year before my own mother died of cancer. He also has written a book of poems called Rhapsodies in Blue, as well as a collection of short stories, this Kind of Man, and a Novel, not to mention A Nice Life. So he's been busy with his podcast, with his writings with other creative folks out of the college that he is connected to out East. He's a big Beatle fan, big music fan, and we'd long wanted to have a Beatle conversation. And so this is it. But to circle back to the FAQ books, another writer I did find was a guy from Canada, George Case, who ended up writing the Led Zeppelin FAQ book for the series. And funnily enough, he had just reached out to me recently about an essay he'd written that was sort of a response to the Ian Leslie book John and Paul A Love Story and Songs that we've talked about a bunch this year. And I had Ian on the show. In it he poses the question, when is enough enough with the Beatles? What if we reach the point of diminishing returns in examining their story and their history? And Sean and I had already planned this conversation anyway, but that came immediately before we convened for this. And it's like, you know what, that's a really good starting point. So this show entitled the Beatles Legacy is basically a conversation on why are we still talking about the Beatles? Do they have any relevance to anything going on today? What is so enthralling? Haven't we done it enough justice? Haven't we covered it enough? So at the other end of this 90 minutes you will have reached the same conclusion we have? Hell no. But gotta start somewhere. If you haven't already checked out Sean's show, I would absolutely recommend it. Some things considered and anybody who hasn't yet subscribed to the Sat B newsletter, feel free to it is just been upgraded so it's a lot more stable and everybody signing up is getting what they are requesting and moving forward. It's going to be a lot more interactive in terms of polls and things like that. I really want to get you the listenership to weigh in on stuff that will help guide the direction of the show going forward for sure and anything else that we end up doing. So to get on it is satb2010satv2010mail.com but in the meantime, my conversation with Sean when is there a point of diminishing returns with the Beatles? I'd mentioned this somewhere in social media, something I was talking about where I was at some book event in Chicago at Navy Pier back when I think 2.0 came out and the host, the speaker of the event was Peter Sagal. And I'm already like, oh, damn, it's Peter Sagal. For anybody who doesn't know. Wait, wait, don't tell me. On npr, the quiz show. So he's got some status, and he sat himself next to me and we're talking, getting to know each other and all that stuff. And he caught me off guard once he sussed out what I was there for and what my background was, what my claim to fame was, as it were. So he goes, so tell me this. Why the Beatles? It's like everything I threw at him, just first things popping into my head. Nah, I don't think that's it. Nah. So I've been thinking about that ever since. It's been like 15 years or so now.

Sean Murphy (11:30)

Yeah. If that's both the rhetorical question and our kind of entryway, I think my response to you is. And my response to anyone would be the fact that that would even be asked. It gives us an opportunity to talk about why the Beatles are such an inexhaustible topic. And that you and I, and I certainly want to make clear. I always want to genuinely defer to your expertise. It's very rare that I'm in a room with someone where I'm like, is there anything I can bring to the table as it relates to the Beatles? But the fact that we are still talking about this. And I can answer in the affirmative with such confidence, like, the fact that they still matter is its own answer. But then it's like, okay, well, give me some reasons. And I think you and I would say, you got all day. And that's the whole point. It's like, to me, the Beatles are an inexhaustible topic. And there are a myriad reasons why. But to me, they kind of loom, like Shakespeare or Beethoven or Van Gogh, like they define entire histories of an art form. And then we can get fascinated not only by the works, but how they changed the forms that they worked in.

Robert Rodriguez (12:34)

Absolutely. This is to the people like us who have made the Beatles a big part of their lives. There's no escaping the fact that once you get. I don't know if seduced is the right word, but pulled into their world beyond just casual, oh, that's a nice song, or, this is a nice album. You know, we have that with scores of artists in our lives that we don't take it any deeper than the sounds we're hearing. There's something for a lot. A lot of people, and it was true in 1963, 1964. It's just as true now, which I see the evidence of every day. You want more. You want understanding, you want to know what is behind the effect that they have on you. And you and I have talked about in tough times. And I've had this conversation with other people, first gen fans that have been on my show, that they represent this pocket of joy and they've always delivered and they've never let us down. And how many things can you say that about?

Sean Murphy (13:33)

Exactly. And I think with the Beatles, it becomes the volume of those. Like, if I just casually think back to my life, I can add my name to that list of someone that you know. The Beatles came to me when I was a kid, so I can literally associate milestone moments in my life with their music. But. So they have rescued me on so many occasions. But it's not that there are other bands I don't love more or equally, but it's over the course of time. It says something that, wow, the Beatles in this catalog, which on one, depending on how you slice it, on one hand is this limited amount of time. On the other hand, it's like this billion year compressed into this decade. But the sheer volume of times I associate memories of my life listening to this music. What more need be said in terms of. Gosh, it's just the gift that keeps giving. I never tire of these songs and the memories they conjure or the associations I then make with other artists or the ways that our culture continues to be influenced again. There's no other word for me. It's inexhaustible, this. Well, and it's all positive.

Robert Rodriguez (14:43)

And the thing is, it's way beyond the dozen odd albums that they made and the songs, you know, that is completely satisfying. There's something there for every taste, of course. And you then go into the solo albums if you're so inclined. But there's something about the effect that they had that I think they projected something that they look to us like some kind of example to live our lives right out of the gate. You see them on the Sullivan show, if you're an American fan. It would have been more evident in Britain and other forums that these guys are celebrating their friendship. It's like you pick up on the fact that they're clearly all friends. There's the one moment I've isolated and I used it. One of my talks where I think they're doing she Loves yous on the first Sullivan show appearance. And you see it's from the right of the viewer of looking at the Beatles on stage, John turns his head to shoot a glance, a smile, something right at George. And you see George's reaction because he's facing the camera, this big grin back at him, like, look where we're at. Look what's going on here. I just remember that caught me. And it's like, wow, it's a blink and you miss it thing. But that spoke a ton about the inspiration. It's like, God damn it, tomorrow I'm getting a guitar, I'm getting my buddies together, we're going to make a band.

Sean Murphy (16:06)

Totally. And again, we could talk for hours just about the kind of interpersonal vibrations and energy and positivity that created this magic. But I think about over the years, how many interviews have I read? You know, everyone from just say, Ozzy Osbourne to Ian Anderson or go down the list of people say, yeah, the moment my life changed was watching the Ed Sullivan Show. So there's like a whole story there or a series of stories, what we're talking about with kind of the personal association, culturally and historically, with memories. But as a writer, I wasn't inspired to be a musician, in part because of, you know, lack of ability. But I can still apply the Beatles and have applied listening. Like, for me, a seminal moment was when the anthology collections came out and being able to hear these outtakes and the development of a song like Strawberry feels and thinking, this is how revision happens, this is how resilience happens. And the reason I mention that in particular is I think we. Speaking of the inexhaustible. Well, we tend to think the Beatles, they are sui generis, but we're like, well, they were just touched. Paul, John, they were just touched by the lightning bolt. No, they worked really hard. And so it's inspiring to hear these people achieving and creating some of the best music we've ever heard and realizing they were human. It was hard work. It was inspiration. It was the combination of sticking with it that's absolutely guided and inspired me in my own kind of modest attempts to create work in the world. So, again, it's an inexhaustible well of inspiration and lessons to learn from. And I think we do them a disservice if we approach them or any iconic artist and say, well, they were on a different level. I mean, they were. But they were human beings that sweat and had fear and struggled with insecurity. And that all informed the music too.

Robert Rodriguez (18:04)

That's a really, really good point. And to your point about, you listened and were inspired by The Beatles. But you felt you had no musical talent, therefore you took it in a different direction. That didn't stop plenty of people with no musical talent from picking up the mantle, because that's how powerful that pull was. It's like, well, I haven't made music to this point, but maybe, maybe if I just apply myself, something will come from it and I include myself in that. I was very much inspired to be in a band, in part because of the Beatles, in part because anything somebody's really, really good at makes it look easy. And you think, well, how hard can it be till you start doing it? But you put your finger on one of the things that I think is one of the implicit lessons of Anthology. Hardcores like us might have been familiar with a lot of the bootleg stuff of outtakes and first run throughs of different songs, but that sort of codified it and put it out there for the public to absorb. And Strawberry Fields is a fantastic example. When you see all the stages that that brilliant masterpiece had to go through to end up being a brilliant masterpiece, we are told by anybody that's picked up a Beatle book, whether it was Hunter Davies or Philip Norman, sadly, or any other full scale biography, that they work their tails off before they even showed up on the doorstep of emi. It's not an accident that the lowliest regarded group out of Liverpool that people are writing in Hamburg, oh, Alan Williams, don't send that bum group down here. They're going to ruin the scene for everybody. Well, guess what? That bum group was the one that outshone everybody coming out of Hamburg. So the absolutely transformative power of hard work, no matter where you start out, talent wise. It so happened, as you said, these guys were supremely talented songwriters but with the best quality control in the world. Once they connected with George Martin and just John and Paul, that dynamic between them, so esteemed were they in each other's eyes, that anything I bring in, it's got to pass muster with this guy. And if absent that, what are they, Jerry? The Pacemakers?

Sean Murphy (20:17)

I don't know. Right, right. And I think that also underscores, you know, when we try to get our hands around what they achieved. When you start thinking about it in just very practical, basic terms, like so 1963 and then three years after that we have revolver and then three years after that we have the White Album. And then Abby wrote. It's like these were eons of achievement and evolution and revolution and changes and profound development of this talent. And we think about bands today and it's like they put out an album every five years. I mean, some of this, it speaks to the hard work, but also how they really set the paradigm. Like, this is how you roll when you're in your prime. You carpe diem. But I think it shows the indefatigable enthusiasm and energy of Paul McCartney. But I think it's fair to say he drove himself harder than many artists ever have. And again, I'm inspired, so I'm inspired by the results. I'm grateful for the productivity, but I'm just in awe of knowing that. Just like, say we talk about Michael Jordan, you know, anyone that's at that level, when you peel back the layers and look at their life, they're obsessed, they're driven, and nothing is more important than what they're working on. So, again, I think it is a happy accident, like a song like I Am the Walrus. Like some of these things that just drop out of nowhere and are indescribable, but we need to kind of give even more respect than we do. Which sounds, you know, is only you and I, right, Could be talking about, well, are the Beatles just too overdone? It's like, I don't think we've actually still addressed how hard they worked and how much we should revere what they did.

Robert Rodriguez (21:59)

Yeah, absolutely. And it seems like historically, up until maybe the last decade, possibly two, our sort of framing of their history has come to us through the perspective of white males and their white male fandom of a rock group. And all well and good, but it's a fraction of the whole story. And so the women have been stepping up. We've been getting all these new, fresh perspectives beyond a litany of chronology. And this is the music. So we get the music critic take the Ian MacDonald revolution in the head. That sort of analysis and the beauty of their story and their art is that there's room for all these perspectives that hadn't been considered before that fell out the story. We're now in this age where the fandom and the impact and the role it played in their career, certainly, but the sort of feedback loop between artist and audience, that they were impacting each other, they were reflecting each other. Something that hadn't really been considered before and now is. And it feeds this insatiable interest in their story going back to the why the Beatles? Well, there's more facets in that jewel that we haven't even looked at laying there in plain sight.

Sean Murphy (23:26)

Yeah. And I would be remiss to not say another basic observation but how many? If we go across all art forms, you know, music, painting, movies, books, how many artists are there that are really, like, beyond debate that you can tie together different cultures, different time periods, men, women, different languages. The Beatles have to be on that Mount Rushmore of. There's little debate you can cross. This doesn't just apply to white dudes or British dudes or people who are stuck in the 60s. It's like the Beatles speak to everybody. Or, you know, so many people through so many different cultural barriers. There's something happening there that really does go way beyond enjoyment of the music, the joy of the music. And I think you are one of our most eloquent spokespeople that help illuminate that. Why do we enjoy it? How did it work? That's important and we should just celebrate that. And we do. But it's so much deeper, I think, again, that gets back to, why do these guys matter? Why are you still talking about them? It's like, maybe we aren't talking about him enough. And I can't. I mean, Robert. Other than maybe Beethoven, I can't think of anyone in my life where I'd be like, have I done that to death? Like, I've left it on the field. I'm good. Let other people have a chance. It's not that I feel like I need to say more. I find myself wanting to talk more. There's just something to that that's at once explicable and completely beyond my comprehension.

Robert Rodriguez (24:54)

That's the thing. I'm always reminded of that quote about dancing, about architecture. Do words even convey all there is? The joy is in the groups. That was the starting point. And it's always going to be there. And people ask, well, how is it you can hear? I saw her standing there. Or twist and shout. 60 years after its creation, it still moves you, it still grabs you in the way few other records created in 1963 might. Yeah, that's where it begins and ends. But there is so much more. You'd spoken to this cross cultural appeal, every gender, every demographic, something that was just brought to my attention that I completely had no idea existed is apparently there's a documentary called the Beatles in India. It's not about the Rishikesh story, it's about the Beatles as a Beatlemania phenomenon in India, Eastern culture.

John Lennon/Paul McCartney (Beatles audio clips) (25:49)

There's a girl who has a nectar she's the kind of girl we won't know she's got everything a man could want but she doesn't know that she knows I love her so much she knows I need her so much Everything to me she's the one I want There's a girl all yeah, yeah, yeah she's the kind of girl you won't know she's got everything her mind goes wrong, but she doesn't know that.

Robert Rodriguez (26:31)

It's almost like no accident that George so embraced it, because there was some kind of synergy already in place going back to the first record there was heard there. You know, maybe it's a British colonial thing, that there was some sort of connecting ether in so disparate a culture, but that whole country, suffice to say, at least the younger generation was completely caught up in and swept up in Beatlemania the way everybody else in Western culture was. How many things can you point at that had that same effect?

Sean Murphy (27:02)

Well, and you hear it right in the music. These guys, in addition to being geniuses and super locked in. I mean, for me, right, if someone, if you anyone, were to ask, like, all right, what is it for you? I'm definitely a fan of the mid to late work. Like, that's what is ceaselessly fresh. It never gets old. But thinking about Lennon and McCartney in particular, well, and Harrison in the Eastern influence, but McCartney was out on the town listening to Jimi Hendrix, helping discover some of this talent, embracing all these other cultural forces. So the Beatles were setting the tone for the Summer of Love, but it was also already a reflection of all these cultural changes. And these guys were both insatiable and curious and humble enough to let that seep into the music. Listening to the birds, right, and seeing how Rubber Soul like, huh, that sounds different, but we can trace. Oh, the Beach Boys are getting in there. They were both setting the new rules, but they were allowing all these other influences that made the music bigger and more expansive and more reflective of this kind of global multicultural energy.

Robert Rodriguez (28:09)

And that receptivity, it speaks to their complete and utter aversion to repeating themselves or adhering to a formula, right? They were. While John was the only one that went to university, went to art school, and failed miserably academically. But there was the headspace that had their scholastic career panned out differently. I think it's safe to say, at least John, Paul and George, knowing what we know about their intellect that manifested in later years, were all university material. They were all people that culturally aware and receptive and flexible and curious, bottomlessly curious about everything. And it makes you wonder, okay, they wanted to have a hit record. That's where it started out. They were fans of records they wanted to be part of that currency of the stuff that inspired them. Well, the stuff that inspired them specifically Elvis, certainly Lonnie Donegan, initially, Little Richard, within those three artists, maybe one could even make the case for Chuck Berry. Not a lot in the way of forward movement in those guys careers. They had their sound and they just delivered variations of it. Elvis changed only through longevity, but that was fueled by the need to create soundtracks for those terrible movies he was making. Of the early artists, the one you can absolutely point to as a sort of precursor of the Beatles that was absolutely not standing still and was evolving was Buddy Holly. And we lost him so early on, dead at 22, which is unbelievable. But the reverberations of what he set in motion, what the Beatles are to us, clearly Buddy was to them. And maybe that's why he resonated so strongly with them as an artist. And as an example. Everything from the four man lineup to let's bring this experimental aspect. You want a pat on your thighs for this percussion? Great. Put a celeste on this track. Whatever it was. They recognized that you're not bound by the conventional paradigm of rock and roll records. You can go beyond that, still create something that will appeal to that same audience, but it's different, is taking a step out of that boundary. And I think that's the one artist I could think of that they were disciples of that had that going on. I mean, obviously they borrowed from everybody, you know, Everly Brothers harmonies and the black artists particular in terms of soulfulness, in terms of lyric content, in terms of groove. But shifting and expanding the paradigm, at what point did that enter their heads as hey, we can do this was their own just natural boredom with repetition.

Sean Murphy (30:59)

I think about whether it's from a movie or real life, like, you know, the business person that achieves a milestone and is already at work on the next thing. Like there are the people that are driven, that they are seemingly insatiable. And when we apply it to so many other fields, it becomes very ugly because it's a kind of competition. It's a zero sum game. The Beatles, like I said, I'll maintain. And you could educate me on this because you could give me actual evidence. But it seems clear to me that they were pushing themselves, especially Paul, harder than anyone else. And I wouldn't necessarily say that that's the recipe for success. But I mean, when we try to really grapple intellectually with how did they do it? Again, I am very comfortable with a certain amount of lightning in a bottle could never be done Again, you know, one in a zillion. But to me, what makes them endure, you know, to me as an adult and a critic and a fan, is this drive and the way that they just not only were changing music indelibly, they were doing it at a scale. You know, you get Rubber Soul and Revolver. And again, I think for most bands it would be like, we're done. You know, what more can we accomplish? It's like, oh, actually we've got sergeant Pepper and then we're actually going to do the White Album. Get back Annaby Road. I mean, it's just, it's truly mind boggling. But it's this combination of all these influences developing their own style which is crucial. Maybe part of the Beatles magic is what is the Beatles style? And it's like, well, what year are you talking about? What song are you talking about? To me, one of the many reasons, right, that the White Album is just inexhaustible is even on that you're getting kind of a history of British music, you're getting a history of rock music, a history of everything. And I just love that they weren't going to be confined, even on a particular album by a style. And they make it work by the sheer force of energy and their talent.

Robert Rodriguez (32:56)

And that's a great example of an album where, you know, John would say in hindsight, oh, that was where the split happened. Me in a backing band, Paul in the backing band, George in the backing band. And I think too many people take that to heart. And it's not true on their close inspection, especially with John's songs, because I think John's songs most of all are the ones on that album. Julia accepted that are the true band performances where you get the other guys stepping up and running with it in the way we associate with the Beatles earlier on in their career. Now Paul is getting to be a bit more of an auteur by that time for sure. I'm gonna call the shots. But you listen to what those guys do as band performances, particularly on John's material, and it's just phenomenal, the synergy that still exists. And then you think about they slogged it out for six months, they did the pre production work of demoing a good number of songs that they just in this meditation camp where they're supposed to be learning tm, instead they got their acoustics and they're compulsively creating material a lot of which would not even end up on the White Album, would end up years later, right? Like circles from George and cosmically conscious from Paul. You know, things like that. India. India. So they're all creating way more music than they have a need for. I think it speaks a ton to one aspect that we haven't mentioned to this point, that on the heels of that, they put out 30 songs as a double album. And at the same time they've reached the point that, well, maybe we do want to do some kind of live situation. We don't know what yet. We know we definitely don't want do stadiums and screamers anymore. We're done with that. They do the hey Jude video. They've got people up on stage with them. They got a tremendous buzz out of that. So they take that director, Michael Lindsey Hogg, in between, he does Rock and Roll Circus, which has got a bit of a controlled audience situation. What can we do? We're going to do a TV spectacular. The fact that we're gonna do this within one month, actually, they'd wanted the original live date was gonna be like January 19th or something, which is ridiculously insane. Less than three weeks. But Ringo's gotta go off and make a film. And by the way, it's gonna be all new material created in front of the cameras. What the actual. You have to have tremendous confidence in yourself to at least put that on the table, as Paul did. And the others don't say, you're out of your freaking mind, Paul. They're like, okay, let's see what happens.

Sean Murphy (35:36)

Yeah. I mean, it's like, what do gods do? They do godlike stuff. And again, it's that drive, that obsession. Also, I'm sure there was a part of Paul, like there was a competition, there was a wanting to be part of the conversation. He didn't want to be bored, or it was bubbling over to the extent that he had to find a channel for all this energy. Which of course began to rub the others the wrong way. I really appreciate you mentioning the synergy on the White Album. You know, anyone that knows that really understands, however it was described afterwards, that was a band clicking on all cylinders as a band. The story I love to tell, and I'm sure you've told it more often and better, but for me, just to take one example, I always smile in addition to loving the song. But I love the story of Ballad of John and Yoko. Nevermind the White Album, never mind, get back, Here's a lark. And this is when it was a song about Yoko, the rupture, happening, whatever, was really true, but her presence being unwanted. And here's a song John Wanted to sing about her enlisted Paul. Paul, game, as always, comes into the studio, provides unbelievable backing, musicianship and energy, and turns what maybe would, as a solo would have been an okay song, and turns it into a Beatles masterpiece. So even on the subject matter that might have rubbed the other bandmates the wrong way, Paul was so ebullient and ready to get in the ring and lift John's material up. I can't hear that song without knowing that story. So the song itself, without any context, kills. I never, ever will be tired of hearing that. I listen to it in the car and makes me happy. But knowing that Paul came in and even when they were, quote, unquote, ostensibly fracturing, making one of their most beloved and happy positive songs, again, it speaks to that weird chemistry that only they had.

Robert Rodriguez (37:35)

And again, it speaks to the joy that's projected through those grooves. It's not a band performance, but it's an incredible simulation to coined a phrase from Beatlemania. And it still satisfies as a Beatle record. If you were so inclined to, like, just judge it on the tunefulness and the energy. And there's the harmonies and just all those little musical details harkening back to their early love of rock and roll that are present there. You get the joy in their hearts, like, yeah, this is a contemporary situation, but I'm going to take the music of my youth that I love and put it in that framework, and what's not to love about it? So, yeah, that's a great thing to put your finger on. I was also thinking about when we were talking about what they brought to the world. 63, 64. There was a great quote on the show from Geoff Martin, I believe, where he said, they gave us what we wanted before we knew we wanted it.

Sean Murphy (38:34)

There it is. Right. And I actually think that that's maybe a really handy definition, not just for art, but. Or the best art, or art that endures, or art that we feel compelled to talk about and analyze. And that also touches on something I think, that you and I have talked about a lot behind the scenes. There's a real big difference between an obsessive, which, again, to each their own. But, you know, people that collect autographs or they need to know every detail about a band almost, because it's a obsessive compulsive type thing, which, you know, more power to anyone that. That scratches an itch. I think when we're talking about you and me, I won't even put myself in your company, but talking myself there, of course, is an obsessive love of this band. But this isn't a. I need to be the best Beatles fan I can be, so I need to know every detail. It's like it's. Their music is so reverberates in so many ways. It almost obliges you to what was going on in London on that cold December day when they worked on Penny Lane, what was going on in America when they toured Candlestick Park. It's one of the reasons I appreciate your ongoing labor of love, helping others further contextualize and appreciate the cultural, historical aspects, because it both enriches the experience, but it helps us grapple as mere human, you know, as mere mortals, with what was actually going on during all this, you know, explosive creativity.

Robert Rodriguez (40:00)

Well, that's the thing. If you enjoy the work and you want more, to me it's. The next obvious step is, well, what informed this work, what was going on? He brought up the backstory of Ball and John. It's just John and Paul at this point in their history, where the chasms are opening up over Alan Klein and business and all that. Yet for these guys, it was always about the music. Paul, who arguably, of the four, certainly by 68, 69, is the biggest Beatle fan out of all of them. He loves this band and yet the blind spot is how he's driving them nuts with his hands on micromanaging of every aspect of the other's creativity. Right. Which gets talked about, the flower pot conversation. So it's been a festering thing, but it's just, you know, more evidence that despite their superhuman creativity, they're still human underneath it all. Yeah.

Sean Murphy (40:56)

I mean, I can look at Paul and I just gave the Ballad of John Yoko. I can think of hey Bulldog. His contributions to a Lennon song, you know, in the studio, a song tracked on the fly.

Robert Rodriguez (41:07)

It's not like they.

Sean Murphy (41:08)

Unbelievable.

Robert Rodriguez (41:08)

But his, his.

Sean Murphy (41:09)

His enthusiasm is so palpable. The love of the creation and the energy. But I can also appreciate the Paul that drove the bandmates to distraction recording Obla de O blah dah Or. Or Maxwell Silver Hammer. Like, I love Paul for that. Like the multitudes and the contradictions. The perfectionist, arguably. Did Paul keep the group together when John may have kind of nodded off, literally and figuratively, or gone into Yokoland, or George was losing interest or wanting to do his own thing? Paul was at once the glue, the manager, the coach, the player coach, but also the prima donna that was driving them insane. And it's like, there it is. They were human beings. So we have to understand these multitudes, to appreciate how this work came out. Welcome to Only Murders in the Building the official podcast.

Robert Rodriguez (42:00)

Join me, Michael Ciro Creighton as we.

Sean Murphy (42:01)

Go behind the scenes with some of the amazing actors, writers and crew from season five. The audience should never stop suspecting anything. How can you not be funny crawling around on a coffin? No, that's true. Catch Only Murders in the Building Official podcast now streaming wherever you get your podcasts and watch Only Murders in the.

Robert Rodriguez (42:20)

Building streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Greenlight. Get this, Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives. But are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight, you can teach your kids financial literacy skills like earning, saving and investing. And this investment costs less than that. After school treatment, start prioritizing their financial education and future today with a risk free trial@greenlight.com Spotify greenlight.com Spotify and I think for fans at a certain level there's an element of, okay, you absorb all this information, but a lot of it's contradictory, right?

Sean Murphy (43:05)

Yeah.

Robert Rodriguez (43:05)

For 50 plus years we were told the most miserable sessions on earth about the Let It Be, Get Back project. And then all of a sudden Peter Jackson comes. Now granted, 57 hours of film, he turns into eight hours of what I call the Monkey's reel, which he got under the skin of it.

Sean Murphy (43:23)

I love that. Perfect.

Robert Rodriguez (43:26)

Yeah, but there's so much stuff out there, as you'd said in like our off camera correspondence books about books about the Beatles, you know, it's like there is just an incredible amount of analysis where people are trying to figure out what's true, what's not. Is it somewhere in between? Was this miserable? Were these the most awful, darkest sessions which that how they described it to the, you know, John and George to the end of their days, and then Ringo and Paul up until suddenly Peter Jackson lays the stuff on him of them goofing around, having fun, making jokes and the whiteout. We told the most miserable that those were the tension sessions. You know, Jeff Emmerich quits, George Martin takes an unplanned sabbatical and you know, Ringo quits. And yet as we mentioned, they're working together as a band. As Ringo had said. I like that better than Pepper because we were a band again, right?

Sean Murphy (44:23)

I mean, yeah, for sure.

Robert Rodriguez (44:25)

But two contrary thoughts could both be True. At the same time. Right?

Sean Murphy (44:29)

Yeah. And you also, you make me think about something that, you know, again, even if I were to assess my own evolving kind of understanding of the Beatles, I can remember one of the reasons, I mean, one of the uncountable reasons. I'm so glad Paul is still with us and is having this what I would call an extended and well deserved kind of victory lap of approbation. You know, there was a period there and again, I don't want to talk to the student, talking to the master, but preaching to the choir. But you know, I speaking only of my own engagement with this band, there was an extended period of time post Lennon's tragic death where he became a saint for good and bad reasons. But Paul really was diminished in the public eye, generally speaking. And I'm talking about conversations I'd have going back to college where you'd know who the real Beatles fans were because you'd have the hipster say, yeah, Lennon was the heart and soul. Paul wrote all the pop songs. It's like you don't know anything. You've never gone deep. I bet you've never even listened to stuff, sides three and four of the White Album. But I love that even within the most talked about band of all time, history is never completely written. We talked about this on our podcast the other week. Understanding. Well, it was actually, was it Paul that was the prime mover and the leader? And it's like it was all those things. They all considered John the leader up till the end. Paul revered John. There's no question. I don't think there's any question. Lennon envied Paul's clarity and enthusiasm during 60, 67, 68, 69. All of these are true, but it just proves that our own understanding of what made the Beatles the Beatles. It's like the answer is all of that.

Robert Rodriguez (46:13)

Absolutely. You just put your finger on something. You just made a thought pop into my head. You're a super cultured, knowledgeable guy. The fact that so many people that consider themselves fans have to frame it as this either or thing, John versus Paul instead of what you prefer, your left hand or your right hand? You know, it's an idiotic premise to begin with. To what could you ascribe that? Why do you think that is? What are these people missing?

Sean Murphy (46:45)

Yeah, I think it's an opportunity for a kind of a half assed analysis and needing to take it. I think it's a very American. Which isn't to imply it doesn't happen in the UK or anywhere Else, But I think it's a very American phenomenon to be like, this was a serious band, you know, I mean, it drives me crazy as a prog rock guy. Well, punk rock was a return to the roots. And, you know, these Prague guys had their heads up their ass and it's like, fair enough. And we could debate that, but the prog rock guys were actually competent musicians and they were pushing themselves. Where I look at something like the Sex Pistol, it's like that was a just as much the Monkees, a manufactured, very cynical enterprise. So when I see like the editors at Rolling Stone, certainly in the 80s and the 90s, talking about sex Pistols were real rock and all this other stuff was pretentious nonsense, it's like I could make a compelling counter argument. Exactly the opposite. So I think the John Paul thing, I don't know. Like, I love talking to my friends that are fellow Beetle fans. We have a running joke like, I'm a Paul guy, or I'm a. I'm a Ringo guy. There's a natural, just like a particular athletic team. Who was the real leader, who's the mvp? There's a human impulse to do that. But I do think with the Beatles stuff, I wonder if Lennon hadn't died and the way he died, when he died, would the engagement of Paul versus John have really registered in the public consciousness? I just think with his Playboy interview, and then he dies, goes out on such a high note. And then, you know, Paul had his thing with Michael Jackson and, you know, he was making okay music in the 80s. Like, it's just fascinating to me. You, you can't isolate and understand. But it's a long winded way to answer your question. My best guess is I think it's a very human and a very American impulse. Like, but who is the best? I need to understand what explains the Beatles and who was the real boss. And it's like, why do you even care anyway? Even if you could identify that, even if the band themselves said, this is our best album and John was the best, that's open to debate. So I'm never satisfied with anyone having the ultimate opinion, including the band members themselves. Because once the music's made, it belongs to the public, right?

Robert Rodriguez (49:00)

Absolutely. Well said. I see it as sort of a lizard brain thing that you're not operating at a high enough level if you can't grasp the nuance that it was an alchemy, that it wasn't Team John, Team Paul, Team George, whatever. That together is how the greatness happened. And it's the only way it could have happened. You're free to like whatever solo stuff you like. But can anybody with a straight face say that there's anything they did individually that's the equal of their greatest moment in the Beatles, or that 90% of what these guys are going to be remembered for are the Songs credited Lennon McCartney? That's just a fact that I think it's pretty well inarguable.

Sean Murphy (49:45)

Yeah, I think it's completely inarguable. And I think you can apply that to so many other epic bands. I think of Cream, I think of Pink Floyd, the list goes on. But, like, these bands, even the ones that, for understandable reasons. Right, like Cream couldn't stay together, that wasn't. I mean, it was egos. They hated each other. But in my opinion, you know, none of them individually made music at the same level. They did, certainly. You know, I've long been fascinated, you know, because to me, it's the closest to the Lennon McCartney, the Roger Waters, David Gilmore. Like. Well, Roger Waters wrote the lyrics, and he was really. He was kind of the Paul in the sense of he kept the band going, pushed to make the concept albums. But it's like, we've heard Roger Waters solo stuff. Whether you like it or love it or loathe it, I don't think there's even a debate that anything any of those guys did when they weren't in their prime. And Robert, that even, to me, peels back in even different layers. So, yes, I'm in full agreement that the alchemy, perfect word that you talk about is the essence of them at their height of their powers. But also a lot of these bands we love. How many of these bands in any genre of rock or any time period were making their best music in their 30s or 40s? Like, there's also something, to me, that's endlessly fascinating about the rock musicians. Apex seems to be those early years and that insatiable drive that does dissipate, I think, for cultural, artistic, human reasons. But very few examples I can think of where you look at a musician in rock. I'm not talking about jazz or classical, but rock musicians, where it's like, oh, they're totally doing their best work in their 50s. Not saying that doesn't happen, but to me, there's something very interesting about bands that have that alchemy and that energy to burn in those early years.

Robert Rodriguez (51:38)

Yeah, that's an interesting point, because I've heard people discuss this with other artists. Well, what about Bob Dylan or what about Paul Simon or somebody like that with some longevity in rock, it's gonna come down to tastes, you know. Is Donald Fagan making his best music as outside his feeling? I don't like. What do you like? But maybe. Clearly I don't think it's much of an argument to say the most revered music is the music under the brand Steely Dan. You could point to specific periods. That just seems to be a thing. Is there a literary corollary you can think of where somebody in middle age was actually that that's when they delivered their masterpiece.

Sean Murphy (52:20)

So I think this is my own kind of self delusion since I'm a writer. But I find it's almost the exact opposite. I think the written word is an art form where one almost invariably improves as they mature. So I would imagine a lot of writers are doing their best work in their 30s to 50s where a lot of musicians are doing their best work in their 20s. And there's a lot of reasons for that. But I actually don't think most writers are doing their best work when they're very young men and women. You have the Salingers and the Hemingways, even the Faulkners, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I could list you hundreds, if not thousands of examples of writers that were doing their best work at an advanced age. So I do think that's fodder for not only a conversation, that's a whole course, a college course in what are the real differences in the aesthetics and the art forms? When do people reach peak performance? I mean, athletes, it's such a human thing. You're only at your peak physical condition to a certain point. You can't be a better basketball player at 50 than you were at 23. But I think you can be a better writer. I would welcome, whether from you or anyone. To me, that's also something I would love to talk about, like debate, just discussion. Push back on that. I'm here for it all day. But I think a compelling case could be made that with writers, and it makes sense to me, like you're reading more, you're doing it more. There's something about rock music where there's certain drive and energy that whether you get old and fat and happy or complacent, I'm endlessly intrigued by that, that I think most rock musicians do their best work young.

Robert Rodriguez (54:04)

That's a good point you put at the end there about comfort. Because I do think comfort is the enemy of good art. Just as a general statement, I think it's true of A lot of people in rock, because that's mostly what we're talking about here, that they're established, they've gotten every honor, every multi platinum album and all that stuff. And whatever they're producing then generally is a hell of a lot less interesting than the stuff they made when they were poor. But I would say this is not a recommendation, kids, that I could think of one or two acts that I thought made much better music when they're high than before they dried out.

Sean Murphy (54:41)

Yeah. And again, it brings us back to what we were saying earlier. Robert, again, speaking for myself, like one of. Again, the myriad examples of influence that I find is. You could say the Beatles, right? Lived within those 10 years, multiple careers. They were already from the Fab Four, you know, Beatlemania years. And then the mid period, the fact that. And we could go deeper on like a Strawberry Fields or I Am the Walrus. Like, they were already the best. They were acknowledged as the best. And for several years after that, arguably, they were still pushing themselves. Or Paul was pushing himself harder than ever. There's something so unbelievably heroic to me about that. Like, you have scaled the mountain. You've won again, just for lack of a more universal example of Michael Jordan. Like, dude, you won three in a row. I want to win all in a row. Then you get into what kind of human being is capable of that, Right. The books that are written about, to be that good, you've got to be an asshole. Another reason I've always loved Paul. By all accounts, or by so many accounts, here's a guy that is worshiped and still seems to be a pretty grounded good human being. It's like, what more can we say about this guy when we would excuse, probably, hypothetically speaking, less savory behavior. And I'm not talking about interpersonal, but just if he was a jerk, if he was a demonstrable jerk, be like, well, he's Paul McCartney. He's allowed to be a jerk. But the fact that he seems to be just this happy dude that's still kind of in awe of what he did and mystified by it, makes me love him even more.

Robert Rodriguez (56:15)

That's another aspect that I think is fair ground for examination. Now. There's been efforts in the past, and most recently in the past year, the Ian Leslie John Paul Love Story book getting into their heads. What made them tick? The psychological dynamic between the four of them. And again, I don't know if it's simple satisfaction of understanding a phenomenon or if there's some Aspect of, well, if I take those same ingredients, maybe I too can create a Beatles, you know, something that from day one, what's the secret to your success? Well, if we knew that, we'd form another group and be managers. I think there are people out there that wish to quantify and understand what made them what they were in the hopes that, well, okay, if I put those ingredients in a pot, then maybe I too can achieve some kind of greatness. You can't contrive that. People have tried. And the thing that seems evident in any sphere of success is that everything is kind of a one off. That is the true exception to whatever the field is, the greatest of whatever that is. You know, Michael Jordan, as you said, he's not the last great basketball player. Yeah, but it's not like everybody who was great in basketball was A Michael Jordan Jr. After his period.

Sean Murphy (57:41)

Right.

Robert Rodriguez (57:41)

You all find your different path. And the phenomenon of today is Taylor Swift. Right. And every way that people try to quantify recording artists, you know, she's up there. Yeah, I have no doubt she's a wonderful human being. You see accounts of that all the time. And there have been efforts made. Rob Sheffield has written a book trying to explain why her greatness and her uniqueness and whatever quantifications you can apply to an artist are valid, I guess. I don't know if it's just an individual thing, a generational thing, or a sense of having a broad grasp of a lot of different artists from different times. I don't hear it the same way. Or to give another example of just something that's happening this year, the reunion and tour of Oasis. For the people that are ecstatic and see this as a second coming of God. Good. I'm glad you've got something to be happy about in this world in this year, 2025. I don't hear it or say it myself. Whereas the Beatles, I think, is something that fewer people can argue about. Yes, they check every box across absolutely everything in terms of appealing to every demographic. It doesn't matter how casual a music fan you are. And you don't have to be into their story, you don't have to think deep thoughts about them to appreciate a Here Comes the Sun and have it lift your spirits on a bad day. So I don't see anything or anyone having the same reach, effect, power, no matter how many records you sell post Beatles. I don't see it. And I don't know. You know, we started this conversation. Is there a point of diminishing returns in Discussing Beatles and all things Beatles. Maybe part of the answer to that. If the answer is no, it's because something hasn't come along since then, and it's all powerful, all unifying, all influential since then.

Sean Murphy (59:45)

That's a great point, Robert. And I think, again, I don't invoke, like, Shakespeare and Beethoven, Van Gogh lightly. We are as humbling as this is, even say, right? Because I think back to when I first discovered the Beatles, and that was many years ago, and that was many years after they had broken up. But we're still fresh, you know, Paul and Ringo, God love them, are still alive, they're still with us. But we don't even have the historical as everything we've just talked about. I think it's fair to say that in 10, 20, 50 years, the legend will loom larger and the contours will take shape of not just like my hackneyed Mount Rushmore analogy, but just cultural, like through world history. We're talking about the Shakespeares, the Bachs, right? Like these epic, undeniable forces of culture and art, the Beatles are going to take their place along that. And very few people would argue otherwise. And if someone did argue otherwise, the onus is on them to say, how are the Beatles? Not important. How are the Beatles? Not good. Why do the Beatles not matter? And you've got your work cut out for you because there's just this tsunami of evidence to the contrary that they are important and they do matter. You don't have to like them. It would be like someone saying, I've read Shakespeare's plays, they don't mean anything to me. Totally fine. But you can't deny the import and the impact and the enduring. Why do we still stage Shakespeare? The language is centuries old, but Shakespeare is still performed all the time. The Beatles music will still be performed and listened to because it endures.

Robert Rodriguez (61:21)

The bones are there, they're there. That's the reason if you're a young person, and not even a young person, people my age that have absolutely no use for Shakespeare, that it's like reading the Bible, it's so arcane, it's so indecipherable, I haven't got the patience. If you don't get that immediate gratification, then the hell with it, you know, I'm gonna go turn sports on. So the good thing about the Beatles as contrasted with a Beethoven or a Shakespeare or anything else monumental you want to point to is it does have that immediate accessibility generally.

Sean Murphy (61:57)

That's another great point. I think that's really Important to point out. And actually, Robert, I think that actually that underscores everything we've talked about. It isn't just that they're good or that they're interesting. It's that, what an advantage. Unlike, say, jazz or classical or literature, you got to invest the time. You know, you couldn't even. Even if you wanted to read Moby Dick, which I recommend everyone does, you have to understand he was pulling in cultural influences. So if you don't know the Bible and you don't know literary history, you might not appreciate Moby Dick. You don't need to know anything about anything to tee up Penny Lane, right, or Strawberry Fields and get it and be like. Or she loves you. Like, you don't have to understand music. You don't have to understand poetry. There's something happening there that makes you feel good. That is an unbelievable gift. And unlike literal and figurative sugar, there might be a rush and then it's you come down or it's not good for you yet. Another example I would give is that the Beatles are something that function as pleasure, but there's never been a comedown for me. It's just entirely positive. There's not a single time I've listened to a Beatles song or album and felt like, I wish I could have that time back and not have done that. I need more time to listen to it more.

Robert Rodriguez (63:17)

Closest I guess I come to that is people who complain about the presence of Revolution 9 on the White Album.

Sean Murphy (63:25)

I mean, look, Robert, as you and I both agree, because we've been obviously talking off podcast for years. I mean, you and I could go a full week. We could filibuster on the White album probably for 72 hours without taking a breath, right? To me, you know, one of the myriad things about the White Album is it is the flaws and the dirt and the grime and the arguable throwaway songs that add up. It's so much better than the sum of its parts.

Robert Rodriguez (63:53)

Oh, absolutely.

Sean Murphy (63:54)

And there are very few albums. A lot of people try it with Exile on Main Street. Speaking personally and as a huge Rolling Stones fan, the same doesn't apply for me. I love the album and I listen to it often. But people, I think, excuse what I consider some throwaway songs where it's like, eh, could that have been a tighter album, the White Album? And I'm glad you mentioned that too, because I wanted to get you on record with this. To me, yet another peeling back the glass onion, right? You could even have people that agree, like, maybe the White Album could or should have been a perfect one, you know, two side album. You're going to find very few Beatles fanatics that would agree on with songs I love that I love that you can't pin down. It would somehow diminish it a teeny bit if it was like Sean and Robert and these other, you know, 10,000 Beatles fanatics all tend to agree. These are the 10, 15 best songs. I have a feeling all of us would have at least a handful of songs where we would fight to the death, where someone else would say that's one of their worst songs. That speaks volumes about how deep this goes and how, yes, it's obsessive, yes, there's passion involved, but it's very genuine. Like I would argue in a non violent way for my version of the White Album, but at the end of the day, I need the full thing. I need all those 30 songs.

Robert Rodriguez (65:18)

Unquestionably, it's a similar phenomena with Sgt. Pepper. For the people that take George Martin at his word. While I would put Strawberry Fields, Penny Lane. Which two songs would you have given up?

Sean Murphy (65:28)

I love you for mentioning that because that lives rent free in my head. Like. Does Strawberry Fields kick off side two? Of course it does. But shouldn't Strawberry Fields kick off the proceedings? Well, then what do you do with the sergeant Pepper conceit? It's like Strawberry Fields had to be its own universe and it just happens to be backed by the best one, two punch. You know, I love Penny Lane, but to focus on Strawberry Fields like that actually would be diminished as a song, even as it would have improved in so many ways the album, it doesn't fit. They had already moved on from Strawberry Fields to make sergeant Pepper and it was only, what, a matter of weeks?

Robert Rodriguez (66:07)

Yeah, yeah, it's unbelievable.

Sean Murphy (66:09)

I'm endlessly fascinated by that. But yeah, I can appreciate and not even necessarily disagree with anyone that would say, how can you leave the two best songs off to me? That again, underscores. That's why the Beatles were the best. They had the confidence to not even need to include what everyone immediately agreed. This is the best single of all time. Well, clearly that's going to lead your new release. Now we're good. We got more gasoline in the tank to make a masterpiece. That changes art. Unbelievable.

Robert Rodriguez (66:42)

Unbelievable. Yeah, yeah. Geez. Speaking of. Well, not we weren't speaking of, but it's been a thought that's been in the back of my head during this whole conversation. The current Hot Topic has been the power to the people. John Lennon, Bach said of his most unloved, most politically driven album from 1972. And to me, it is kind of irrelevant, the merits of the song, simply because, as somebody put it somewhere that I read, it's the normalization of cultural vandalism to decide that needs to be excluded in 2025. What are your thoughts on that?

Sean Murphy (67:23)

Thank you for asking. I'm absolutely opposed to censorship as it relates to art. If you don't like a particular song or a particular album, don't listen to it. I think vandalism is a perfect word. It's the audacity and the temerity of looking at prevailing cultural standards and assuming, well, we are now at the apex intellectually, spiritually, so we can be the arbitrators of what one should hear. And it's anti intellectual, it's anti academic. Because the background I have, or at least the part of it that I embraced, is the notion that even the controversial stuff. We're talking about Huck Finn, we're talking about Blazing Saddles. Insert example here. That's fodder for discussion about why it's offensive, how we've changed, how even the most evolved citizens of their time were obviously cultural manifestations of the times they lived in. And to judge them by contemporary standards is a disservice. It's judgmental in all the wrong ways. And again, it doesn't mean you're validating the work that art monsters do, but it means you can and should be able to assess the art on its own terms. And then if you want to go deeper and complicate it culturally or historically, great. That's why we write the books. But anyone that says we are going to decide that this song should be left off the album, to me personally, it's not a hill that I would necessarily literally die on, but it offends every bit of my sensibility when people with the least talent deem to speak for others.

Robert Rodriguez (69:03)

Yeah. And especially because it seems inescapable, in the conspicuous absence of any kind of statement of clarity or justification, to have been done purely for commercial reasons. We might sell more if we leave this off and don't even have this discussion, because somebody, somewhere might get offended about its presence without any sort of explanation of why it's there, why it was created in the first place.

Sean Murphy (69:31)

I mean, Robert, to show my own hand and how deep I go on this and how insane I am. We don't even have to talk about ostensibly legitimate cultural conversations about controversial things. I'm still mad at Pete Townsend for when he reissued Quadrophenia. Instead of saying, this is the new version, if you want to buy it, he tinkered with the original album. So there are certain songs on an album, the Dirty Jobs at the end with the farm animal sounds he edited out. And I still hear them in my head. And it annoys me every time. Cause I'm like, you're not allowed to do that. And I could appreciate him or a big fan saying, it's his music, he can do whatever he wants. And my retort would be, no, it isn't. That is a document that exists and you're doing a disservice to the fans to try to clean it up. Or when someone like Roger Waters. Right. Or any number of musicians re record chord a classic, they have every right to do so. But when a musician, not at the height of their powers, assumes that they're doing their best work, they're showing themselves and it's usually pretty embarrassing. Yes.

Robert Rodriguez (70:35)

And we have the right not to buy it.

Sean Murphy (70:36)

Right, Exactly. But the difference being, like. So to be clear, am I saying what, Pete can't do a new remix?

Robert Rodriguez (70:43)

No.

Sean Murphy (70:43)

And if people are going to buy those, that gets into the whole obsessive thing. We talk about. Someone's like, well, there's a new version of Quadrophenia that's a teeny bit different than the version I own. I need to buy it. More power to all involved. But the original, what we grew up with, should be untinkered with. That should be available on all platforms.

Robert Rodriguez (71:05)

And it's not just Quadrophrenia. It did it with who by numbers. It did it with who are you? It's like elements that your years of listening have branded into your DNA are gone. And it pisses me off. The album sounds better, but to me, it's not the go to. Because, God damn it, I want what I heard back when. When I was becoming a fan. Thanks to you.

Sean Murphy (71:26)

Yep.

Robert Rodriguez (71:26)

So brand it as alternative universe version if you must, but can we just have what we originally we got acclimated to that you thought was your best work when you put it out.

Sean Murphy (71:37)

Yep. And I think there's a genuine. As a writer myself, I appreciate, like Townsend, again, can do whatever he wants, but it's a disservice to the fans. It's a presumption. It's kind of the mirror image of the censorship we're talking about. For a musician to say, this is actually the version you need to hear. These are the fans that have paid your bills and been your fans all these years. It's a disservice to your most knowledgeable and passionate fans to say, actually, I've made the decision that this is the new definitive version at the exclusion of the old version. There's an arrogance there, and I think it reveals something. It reveals a musician who's lost his speedball decades ago and is still trying to kind of dominate the conversation. So I ultimately kind of feel a little bit of pity for that.

Robert Rodriguez (72:24)

I get to where as a creator and as an artist, you would want to in your latter day brain, improve what you got wrong the first time. If that's the case. It's like, I in no way put me on the level any of these revered artists we're talking about. But it's like, I look at my books that came out years ago, I would change so much of them. I can't even listen to my old podcast because it's like, oh, geez, I could have done this better. Why didn't I bring this up? Or something like that, whatever. But one of the things I think about is, I think it was in the early 90s when Zappa revisited his 60s catalog for compact disc. And maybe it was on Rico disk that he swapped out the drum parts from the 60s stuff and got this massive blowback on that. It's like, are you out of your mind? And I think he had to then remedy that same thing. ZZ Top digital drums.

Sean Murphy (73:22)

You and I are so simpatico. So this, you know, for our younger listeners, there were these things called CDs. They were the only way you could get music in the late 80s. And they were very expensive. Big ZZ Top fan. I remember saving up money for the six pack.

John Lennon/Paul McCartney (Beatles audio clips) (73:38)

Right.

Sean Murphy (73:38)

That was the big box set. And when I heard Tush and the reverberating drums, I literally never put it in my CD changer again because I was so outraged. And I dropped like $50, which in today's terms would be, you know, $10 million. I was so offended and outraged. Yeah. The ZZ top one is one of many examples. But that, as you can see, it still fires me up decades.

Robert Rodriguez (74:03)

The MTV drums. Yeah.

Sean Murphy (74:05)

And again, in a sense, though the other versions were still available, you could get the original album. We're talking about the Townshend thing or the Zappa thing, where a musician is taking the liberties even though they own it. It's a disservice to the fans. And it is, oddly, it's a type of censorship, in my opinion. It's a type of authoritarian. Like, I will tell you which version of the song. You want to hear the misguided arrogance of that wrinkles.

Robert Rodriguez (74:33)

Yeah, it's crazy. And to circle back to Beatles and specifically, as we've talked about, your gateway drug was the Blue Album back in the 70s.

Sean Murphy (74:43)

Yeah.

Robert Rodriguez (74:44)

Like in John Lennon's lifetime. Right. Like 79 or something like that.

Sean Murphy (74:47)

So any opportunity to talk about that. Well, you know, again, so for me, you talk about milestones. I would say the acquisition of the Blue Album, that was my like lost ark to this day. That's still one of like the seminal acquisitions because again, for our younger friends, I had a 45. I had, you know, I think I don't know if I owned a Beatles album yet. This was right after Beatlemania in 78. And I would hear, you know, the song was on the radio. I had become obsessed with their later work. I had gone through the Beatlemania, the early stuff, acquiring the Blue Album where it was all contained. And again, I was still a young pop, so I hadn't realized, oh, there's Abbey Road, there's a lot more to go. But the Blue Album at that time for a nine year old was this holy grail of all the songs that I loved the most and was most kind of fascinated by. So we could go track by track. But yeah, acquiring the Blue Album specifically to have hey Jude finally have hey Jude that I could listen to anytime but Strawberry Fields and I Am the walrus to my 9 year old brain, that was what took me from being man. I really am loving the Beatles. That was the moment Dorothy walks into the color from Black and White where nothing was ever the same. Not only as a Beatles fan or a music fan, my entire sensibility I can still trace back to obsessing over I Am the Walrus. Not having any idea. I thought those were the Beatles at the end, you know, with their British voices talking, realizing that that was from a play that they allegedly happened to just turn on still makes my. I got goosebumps literally right now. Makes my brain explode to think of the different circumstances just in the creation of that one song.

Robert Rodriguez (76:37)

The utter perfection of not just a Shakespeare play at that moment, they're running a feed into the mixing board. But that scene from that Shakespeare play at that point in the song. Unbelievable.

Sean Murphy (76:51)

Yeah. So whether it was. And that to me again, wouldn't lose any of its magic. Oh, dude, that was totally calculated. Well, it was a genius calculation.

Robert Rodriguez (76:59)

Even if it hadn't.

Sean Murphy (77:00)

If it wasn't calculated, it makes you step back in awe of what the Beatles did, of what we can do as human beings of what the world gives us. It opens us up to the pud. To me, you know, I don't believe in magic, right? But I believe in music. That's magic. What happened with I and the Walrus, Lightning in a bottle, sui generis. The words that I misheard, I still hear, Rest you, grandfather, rest you. And I still hear that when I listen to that song. But you know, crowding around a shitty record player trying to absorb those last 10 seconds or 20 seconds, absolutely still sends a tingle. But when I think about the nine year old Shaun Murphy, who of course was going to become a writer, I can't say that without doing this right? Like that sounds pretentious, but they wanted to become an artist without realizing it. That's where these early seeds are being planted. And I look back and it makes perfect sense to me. Like, of course I was the guy that was going to get a master's in literature. Like, what other kid is that consumed by all these things he couldn't understand but knew something? Or some things are going on there that are so much deeper and more profound. But to get back to what you said earlier, which is true on a fundamental level, it wasn't a pretentious intellectual exercise. The sounds that were coming out were so intoxicating. And the fact that for me, that was when I was first reading Edgar Allan Poe. So again, personally, in my journey, I am the walrus. Mentioning Poe while I'm beginning to read Poe and beginning to write these horrible poems and short stories. To me, the through line of all that is like, wow, it all goes through the blue album. So yeah, I can still remember like riding home, having acquired it and being excited to get home. So that lives large, like a big moment in my life.

Robert Rodriguez (78:50)

Lives large. And you're a legend.

Sean Murphy (78:54)

Robert. I can remember looking at the Inside Flap, you know, that classic picture of them in the park. How cool George looked at that time before the mustache, George's long hair and them intermixed with all those other people. I mean, you know, pre mtv, right? Like, God, you guys had boring lives. I look back on that, I'm so grateful that there wasn't an easy access to. I can go online and look at everything about this. Like I had to puzzle through. We all had to puzzle through that in analog, in real time. And just looking at that picture for hours and just worshiping these guys. It was the complete package.

Robert Rodriguez (79:32)

It was a complete sensorial experience. Cracking open an album for the first time. The smell, the visual, whether it's the label spitting on the turntable or reading the liner notes. That inner sleeve, which may or may not have had information on it, every bit of it. And then whatever surface defects there were in the vinyl that would stay in our heads forever. Just as an eight track Changing Channels still stays in my head. And I never even owned an eight track. This is just from hearing In My Friend's Cars. But it's funny, knowing you, Sean, I met you as a rock writer, quote, unquote, whatever you would have characterized yourself. You did a lot of writing about rock and that was how we connected. And if somebody were to say to me, well, what do you think was the life changing song for Sean Murphy out of the Beatles catalog? I think I would have gravitated, knowing none of this toward I Am the Walrus. Because in my head, that was always the literary Beatles song.

Sean Murphy (80:30)

Yeah. And so I think it's hard to argue with that. This gives me an opportunity to say even. It kind of ties into everything we've been talking about. You know, Lennon himself, whether facetiously or genuinely saying it was garbage. It was a throwaway. Again, even if that was his intent. That, to me, again, is yet another example that we can add of why the Beatles are so deep. He couldn't help but be a genius. Like I hear elementary Penguin, you know, yellow matter custard dripping from a dead dog's eye. He could say, I was taking a dump and I wrote this on the back of an envelope. It meant nothing to me. It meant a lot to me. And the use of language, like he couldn't escape his own brilliance. He was a literate guy. He had read. He understood culture, he understood alliteration, wordplay, sarcasm. Man, you should have seen him kicking Edgar Allan Poe. What? I still don't get it. And he could have said a number of other things. A lot of other artists could have tried to be profound. He achieved profundity even through the gibberish. That's the song. I mean, Strawberry Fields may be more sound wise. I mean, both Walrus and Strawberry Fields sound wise. But the words in Eye on the Walrus not only mystified and enraptured me, they still do. I hear the sound of his voice at that particular time. Just everything and Right. Speaking to the Beatles guy, you think about George Martin, you think about the rest of the band pulling together to add the different layers that make that such a deep. I love the fact that Lennon very well may have looked back on that himself and said, that was the dumbest thing I ever Did. It's like that makes me love it even more.

John Lennon/Paul McCartney (Beatles audio clips) (82:14)

Seeing Ginsburg and all these people liked Dylan and Jesus going on about Hare Krishna. And it was Ginsberg in particular that I was referring to. Elementary penguin, meaning it's elementary naive attitude to life to go around just chanting Hare Krishna or putting all your faith in one idol. And that's what that line is. But those days I was more obscure, you know, So I wrote it obscurely a la Dillon, I suppose. Never saying what you mean, but giving the impression of something where more or less can be read into it. That's a good game because, you know, people intentionally did that.

Sean Murphy (82:54)

You were putting that down in them.

John Lennon/Paul McCartney (Beatles audio clips) (82:55)

No, no. But then I was playing the game too. I thought, well, you know, they get away with this artsy farty crap, you know. There's been more said about Dylan's wonderful lyrics than ever is in the lyrics at all. And mine too. But him to take a prime example, because the intellectuals that read or listen to Dylan or the Beatles and he got away with murder, I thought, well, I can write this crap too.

Robert Rodriguez (83:21)

I've always felt, once I became sort of aware and became a more critical listener, how much George Martin was the secret sauce to all those wonderful recordings that we revere, knowing what he did arrangement wise that are so memorable. And key components, you know, the strings and the brass on both those records you named. And then in the 90s or whatever it was that the bootleg started to circulate of just the isolations of that stuff. It's like, oh my God, I would listen to this and enjoy this just as a piece of music, you know, never mind the words and the Beatles rhythm section, all that stuff. This is just incredible, incredible stuff. I think it's one of the things that drives creatives is that you know who it is you revere, you know who it is you might, if not emulate, at least be inspired by and feeling in your gut. I will never reach their level even if, you know. So in the case of a Walrus, John has these literary heroes, the Lewis Carrolls and James Joyce perhaps, and whoever else, then his mind are it that, well, this is just some stuff I dashed off in the back of my taking a dump. We beg to differ. You might not think it's on the level of the your heroes, but you're our hero and absolutely everything we create from this day forward. Upon hearing your gateway drug Blue album, I am the Walrus in our heads. It'll never measure up to that. But maybe some other people it will who aren't as esteemed with James Joyce or whatever else. So that's how artists pay it forward in a way that we stand on those shoulders of giants might not think we're reaching their level, but for somebody, somewhere, it may be. And that's what matters.

Sean Murphy (85:04)

Yeah. Our best artists are always in conversation with the history and the future. And I, in the Walrus is John being in conversation with his own mind, his times, his influences, his. And as such. And again, I offer this very modestly but genuinely just to illustrate a point. You can connect me as one of those touch points. Radically changed not only my life as a music fan, but arguably was helping me crystallize even before I understood who I was and what I was, these impulses of why do I care so much about this? Like, why is it deeply moving to me? It frightens me, it titillates me, makes me want to cry. What is the power of what's happening there? And then as you get older and experience more, you're realizing, this is what art does. This is what the Beatles did. And to get back to the very beginning of our conversation, right? I don't know if we said this before we came on the air. It's like the best way to describe and defend the Beatles is just put on the Beatles, right? It's like, that's the ultimate mic drop. When someone says, yeah, yeah, yeah, I just heard you guys talk for 90 minutes. Still unconvinced. I'd say, good, let me queue up Revolver. And if that's not gonna do it for you, then maybe that's just not your cup of tea. But I'm not gonna argue with you that you should be a fan. But listen to the music. And if you're unconvinced, it's just not for you. But for billions, right? Or millions and millions of people. That's been more than enough.

Robert Rodriguez (86:30)

Yes. And across, as we said, every demographic, every culture, it's astonishing to me. Not just the effect that they have of so much inspiration they unleashed, Whether it was 2-10-64, all these guys who started making a decision, I'm gonna grow my hair. Girls who might have felt empowered with their fandom in some way to start bands as well. You can't dismiss them. Certainly whatever channel they had of self expression, becoming a writer themselves, as you were, it's limitless. And the other thing I think about is the education the Beatles gave me beyond just their music is the rabbit holes they sent me down by putting some aspect in their music, some cultural reference, whatever it Was buying the Star Club album when it came out. It's like, your feet's too big. Fats Waller. Who is Fats Waller? It must be some rock and roll guy, because the Beatles are covering, right? Send you down that rabbit hole. So what a remarkable engine for learning about the world. And then, of course, in real time, in the 60s, TM, transcendental meditation. What is that? You know, all these things they turn the world onto, even decades later, that if you become a Beatle fan, you start reading your story, it's like, oh, I want to know more about this. And it just opens these doors wide to discovery. What a miraculous thing.

Sean Murphy (88:02)

Yeah, miraculous thing. The best art. And I would put the Beatles as creating some of the best art. It enlarges the world. It expands your own world, your own consciousness, and takes people like us that are very curious, insatiably creative and desiring to work out our feelings and thoughts. It gives us more fuel for that and that. Right? What better gift? Just on a human level that's above and beyond everything else. Like, I think we've adequately covered, right? Like, okay, your fans, your obsessives, your writers, your critics. On a human level, this music has undeniably improved my life radically. And so I do have a certain awe that I guess other religious or spiritual people have for their deities. Like the Beatles are among some of the deities that I. In a very non violent, very positive way. And I have to use quotation, but worship in the sense of I'm so grateful for this positive force that has again, undeniably impacted my life in so many ways. I said it earlier and it's a cliche, but it is the gift that keeps giving.

Robert Rodriguez (89:13)

Yeah, absolutely. And we attempt to find some kind of answer to the question, why the Beatles? It begins and ends with the music, but there's. It's so much, so much bigger than that about how they make us feel, how they inspire us, how they give us this shared brotherhood with people that we might not connect with otherwise. I can go anywhere in the world and if I'm wearing a Beatles shirt or somebody I meet is you lock eyes, you might start a conversation, but you're immediately sharing some kind of warmth and some kind of wonderful human interaction because of a shared love of something that I'm not a terribly religious person. I would say I'm more spiritual in my own way. But I kind of reached the conclusion, well, isn't this sort of what religion is supposed to do for people? Is that we are. One aspect we're all sharing this world, this planet, for this brief time, and we're all from the same stardust. Whatever. It seems to me that Beetle fandom is one way to sort of accelerate that and cut to the chase. Like, it's got an immediacy to it, which was always part of the Beatles story, whether it was the music or whatever else they were projecting is like, they got you there right away. And I think, like reading Shakespeare, you might have to slog through to get through that breakthrough moment. It might be the same way with religion. Few people have maybe the patience or the determination to reach that point unless they have no other options. But with the Beatles, you don't need any other options. You will get it right away, and you don't know where those roads will take you.

Sean Murphy (90:57)

Yeah, Robert, they may say that you're a dreamer, but you're not the only one.

Robert Rodriguez (91:01)

We're not the only ones.

Sean Murphy (91:03)

And, you know, I think my maybe parting salvo would be, I have purposely invoked some absolute titans in world cultural, artistic history, but I would say debates have raged like, well, did Mozart take what Bach did and advance it? Did Beethoven then take what Mozart did? And very compelling cases could be made. What I would say as my kind of end all, be all is that no one has taken what the Beatles did and surpassed it. So. And I've written, like, are there albums I like more probably have people, advanced music and pop music. Sure. But I have a feeling that no acts that ever emerge in popular music will not be in the shadow, in some fashion, of the Beatles. So there it is. For me, that's the final word. Like, you could make a case. Yeah, Beethoven did everything that was done before him and did it better. I don't personally agree with that. But you could make a case. I don't think you can make a case that somebody came along or will come along that has taken what the Beatles did and done it better, had more impact, more meaning, more influence, more joy. So there it is. They broke all the rules and in so doing created all the new rules.

Robert Rodriguez (92:18)

It's unimaginable for something to surpass it. It's like, what scope of achievement you would have to have to put the Beatles in your shadow. Right. And I analyze this all the time myself, trying to get inside my own head. I'm very careful. I don't see myself as fetishizing the Beatles. It's not like I try to wear my hair like them or talk like them or write songs like them or whatever. It's not on that level. And there's certainly moments where I might try to distance myself a little bit. Like you said, there might be other albums we love more or acts that we consider more on our short list of favorite bands or favorite artists artist or whatever. But there was something about the gravitational pull of the Beatles that even when you. I mean, you can't really think, well, I've gotten to the bottom of it's time to move on now and find it some other obsession. It hasn't reached that for me. I can't imagine that it would. And we live in a world where some would say cynically, well, there's always some other money grab around the corner with these guys. But is it a money grab if it gives us joy right now and then comes out? And I do remember thinking in advance knowing it was coming. Well, there's no reason to do a show about that. It's just. It's good to have it, but it'll come and go great. And then once it got closer and I started to see the reaction and then it did come out and then there was that 12 minute video, the making of and then the music video. It's like this is a profound cultural moment. If you are a Beatle fan, for sure.

Sean Murphy (94:00)

Yeah.

Robert Rodriguez (94:01)

I don't know how much, but it certainly was one of these things that we got in. Our gateway drug was the Red and the Blue elves. And for another generation it was Beatles, one cd, somebody else. It was Anthology. Now and Then is going to be that gateway for the young kids of today. And I know that to be true because I heard enough evidence of that. So it's like you think there is an end point in sight, but every time you think that there's not.

Sean Murphy (94:30)

Yeah. And you know, you made me think, Robert. So let me triple down. I invoke Bach and Beethoven. But many of us don't get tired of looking at the stars at night. We don't get tired. Every wave breaking is more or less the same kind of. Don't get tired of looking at the waves rolling in, looking at trees. They shed their leaves, they come back. I don't get tired of looking at the sky. Beatles are that force of nature that we're so grateful for. They're just part of our consciousness. And they are, like I said probably too many times, they're inexhaustible. It's a well that just you never reach the bottom of.

Robert Rodriguez (95:05)

And when you consider they just wanted to make records, they just wanted to have a hit, their goals were no more lofty than that till once they reached that point, it's like, well, we don't want to make the same hit record again. And they just went on this journey that they didn't even anticipate coming. And I would say that's true of us as writers, as creatives, in our own fashion. Nowhere near the same sport as the Beatles, but we're doing what we can with the gifts we got and trying to honor them. Because at some point you recognize, well, not everybody can do this. And it was something I neglected for the longest time, even though I had ample proof in my single digits that I could write. And I didn't know at the time that was something that everybody couldn't do. I just assumed everybody could. Even though I knew not everybody could hit a baseball, I knew that at early age that was quickly proven on the playground. So I don't know where I was going with that.

Sean Murphy (96:09)

Well, I think it's this deeply human impulse. Again, we talk about the positivity, or I'll speak about the positivity. I feel is this human impulse to find something that you love or that you are blessed to be tolerably good at, work hard at it. I mean, it starts to invoke a lot of stereotypes and cliches, like you make the most of what you have, you try to leave the world a better place, you try to provide some non cynical joy to the world. I think that's what many of us find in the Beatles music. And then again, it extends its tentacles into the acts that they influenced and shaped and just the songs themselves that are these regenerative, restorative springs that we drink from often.

Robert Rodriguez (96:52)

See, here's the thing, here's why we're friends. We have these complimentary sort of aspects to ourselves. On a good day going downhill with the wind at my back, I might be able to make somebody think you can make me feel aw. Thank you, my friend.

Sean Murphy (97:08)

Right back at you, brother. Again, you probably would be too modest to mention this, but, you know, I've told you and I've told anyone that will listen, you have been not just someone I'm a fan of, but I've learned so much. And it'd be an insult to say I've learned more about the Beatles from you. That's a given. I've learned more about the culture, about music, how to do criticism, how to live a purposeful life. So the mutual admiration society is alive and well. It's just an absolute delight to chat with you and I greatly appreciate you giving me the chance to go deep.

Robert Rodriguez (97:39)

I love this stuff. This is so fun. I am incredibly blessed to have a show that people listen to and that people want to come on it. And it's like an extra bonus cherry on the cake when a friend that I think the world of will come on my show and I will have 90 minutes fly by. You keep going. But it's incredibly satisfying. For me, this started to pay off to the work that I do. It's like, well, I get to do this every once in a while.

Sean Murphy (98:02)

I feel the same way. And whether the fans demand it or we feel like it, just consider it a very humble. But I'm at your service anytime there's a bone to be picked on any album or song or whatever, you know, I'm game. So. And again, maybe not even for the podcast, like just us chatting. I can't get tired of it. I can't grow bored with it. I'll discover new ways that I appreciate this music, music in general and why we do what we do. Those types of conversations are absolutely priceless.

Robert Rodriguez (98:34)

Absolutely. Amen. It's the Beetle Magic man.

John Lennon/Paul McCartney (Beatles audio clips) (98:37)

Bury my body and give the letters which thou findst about me to Edmund, Earl of Gloucester.

Sean Murphy (98:44)

Seek him out upon the British party.

John Lennon/Paul McCartney (Beatles audio clips) (98:48)

O untimely death, I know thee well. A serviceable villain, as duteous to the vices of thy mistress as badness would desire. What? Is he dead? Sit you down, father.

Sean Murphy (99:07)

Rest you.

Robert Rodriguez (99:11)

Something about the Beatles created and hosted by Robert Rodriguez, executive producer Rick Way, title song performed by the Corgis. Something about the Beatles is an evergreen podcast. Let's see. Sounds like they're having a lead.

John Lennon/Paul McCartney (Beatles audio clips) (100:05)

Feet too big. Don't want you cause your feet's too big can't use you cause your feet's too big. I really hate you cause your feet's too, too big.