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- [00:01]
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- [01:45]
State Farm Advertiser
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way save with a personal price plan like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.
- [02:48]
Robert Rodriguez
Hello and welcome to episode 314 of Something about the Beatles Podcast. And this show is not really a drill down on the anthology for release per se so much as it is an examination of what was announced as the track listing and and kind of a critique of the SDE special Deluxe Edition series tied to specific albums, anthology series generally, and just how Apple, the corporate entity managing the Beatles affairs, has handled the archival releases and a bit on the solo ones as well. We're not intending to be negative because God knows in the world we live in now there is plenty of negative commentary on absolutely everything that is sort of reflexive I think with the population. And maybe that's just a symptom of the mindset, the headspace that a lot of us are in now. In fact, I don't know too many people that aren't. But this is not that. This is not just piling on to be critical and negative, but if there are standards to be upheld, and one can absolutely make the case that the Beatles led the way during the years that they were active in the 60s, that everyone else followed, they've been lagging behind ever since. And really the point wanting to be made here is that, you know, the Beatles once stood for something in terms of what they gave the world, and now there's plenty of other people doing it way better. So that's really the case that's being made here, is that there's a good way to do things, there's a better way of doing things, and hopefully somebody's paying attention not to this modest little podcast, but that there is plenty of feedback out there from the hardest of the hardcore that are apparently your target consumer, even when they're being underserved. So to that end, I've got two of the world's most renowned authorities on beetle recordings, stuff that's out there, and mostly a lot of stuff that isn't, because they've tracked it down. They've heard what is within reach, even if it's not out there through official channels. Now, speaking of Doug Salby, who has been putting out a newsletter for years now, 9109 10, figure out what that means. It reviews the stuff that's out there and reviews the stuff that's coming with the informed mindset of somebody who knows what's what. He did a review of the Peter Jackson Get Back films a while back that really got into nitty gritty about what he gave us versus what was caught on film. That for anybody interested, is required reading@doug sulpy.com you can get these newsletters.
- [05:37]
Doug Salby
Anyway.
- [05:38]
Robert Rodriguez
He also did, of course, drugs, Divorce and A Slipping Image, which is the roadmap that in fact, Peter Jackson discussed on this show that he used for the work that he did, because it goes over every bit of Nagra, every bit of video that is out there that can be reached and examined and discusses what's what chronologically, coherently, and so on. So I want to bring Doug into.
- [06:02]
Doug Salby
The show to talk about that.
- [06:04]
Robert Rodriguez
And also Chip Mattinger, who, with Mark Easter 25 years ago, did the eight arms to hold you book, which is something examining every extant known piece of recording and video of the Solo Beetles up through the year 2000, I believe, which is when it was published and it's been remixed since and is currently available now as a downloadable PDF, fully searchable, that you could check out on the leninology.com website where there's currently a sale going on as well. On his wonderful deep bit of scholarship on John Yoko, 1966 through 1980. Leninology. Strange days indeed. A scrapbook of madness. That is the last word on wanting to understand anything about the work John with and without Yoko produced and the chronology and a in depth timeline of their lives. That this is like the cutting edge scholarship as far as that goes for anybody interested. So, Doug sulpy.com and leninology.com if you want to check out their works, which I highly recommend. So here is our critique of the archival reissues group and solo and the way we see things, where they should be going and who's doing it best right now.
- [07:55]
Doug Salby
Doug, give me your take. As somebody who's written a lot about the Beetle sponsored reissues of product, what do you think their strategy has been to this point as far as the special deluxe editions and the anthology sets and basically all the product that they've been marketing? Have you been able to figure out a logic to the audience these things are being directed to?
- [08:18]
Doug Sulpy
No.
- [08:19]
Podcast Host
Okay, join the rest of us.
- [08:22]
Doug Sulpy
I mean really, I just. That's. That's asking an impossible question. I mean it seems a classic case with them with maybe too many cooks or maybe the cooks that they do have changed their mind every now and then. Or maybe they just don't know what they're doing.
- [08:37]
Doug Salby
Decision by committee.
- [08:38]
Doug Sulpy
Well, yeah, because you would have thought they just started a super deluxe edition series, you know, on the anniversaries of the various albums and started at the beginning and worked through. And obviously they didn't do that. They started with sergeant Pepper and then now they seem to have just given that up and entirely and want to give us these anniversary issues of compilations and such. It almost seems like what is the bare minimum we can get away with selling to the fans this year to put something substantial until next year.
- [09:07]
Doug Salby
Doesn't seem odd to you? Just as a side note that McCartney back in the day started these great archival sets of his albums and then just kind of stopped along the way without completing the entire catalog. I'm thinking of Back to the Egg in London Town.
- [09:23]
Doug Sulpy
It's kind of the exact same thing. I mean, it went on more consistently. Yeah, but even those were wildly inconsistent. I didn't buy all of those things. Some of them Weren't worth buying.
- [09:33]
Chip Mattinger
Right?
- [09:33]
Doug Sulpy
I mean, I heard the Ram on it. It was, like, so overblown and badly mixed. You couldn't listen to it. And then some of the earlier ones, like, I posted the McCartney one. It's like, well, I get a backing track for OO you. That's what I'm getting for my money here. That's it. That's all you could find in all of your home tapes? All of your castle. That's what we got. I mean, it's. But then again, there's the flowers and the dirt one and. And the Red Rose Speedway one has plenty of extras on it.
- [10:03]
Doug Salby
Is there any franchise out there is, like, the gold standard when it comes to curating an artist?
- [10:09]
Doug Sulpy
Oh, yeah, I posted about the King Crimson boxes. You know, it's just they've put out a series of, what, eight box sets spanning their career up to 24 CDs, everything on Blu Ray, the original mixes, sound sound mixes, remixes. And then if that isn't enough for you, they have a web page where you give them whatever $150 a year, and you could just stream every single thing they've ever done, ever, including all of the live performances.
- [10:36]
Doug Salby
So King Crimson, is that being managed through Atlantic or is that a reissue label that's licensed the stuff to reissue?
- [10:44]
Doug Sulpy
They own all their own material. They bought whatever they had with Atlantic, back again.
- [10:48]
Doug Salby
Wow.
- [10:49]
Doug Sulpy
So now it's like Fripp's company is putting out everything.
- [10:53]
Guest Performer
Wow.
- [10:53]
Doug Salby
That's amazing. In other words, regarding King Crimson and even things that I am aware of, like Rhino, what they do with administering the Monkees catalog, it seems like their respective audiences are pretty satisfied and therefore Beatles, Universal, Apple, whoever's administering the Beatles back catalog, they have no excuse for there not being a precedent or a template or an example to follow for the way they're doing the things they do. I'm wondering if it's unique to them that they've got four estates that they need to have sign off on this stuff. That. That's part of the problem.
- [11:31]
Doug Sulpy
I don't know what the problem is. The problem seems to be partially that they're very, very stingy on material. We've gotten virtually no video from them in any kind of complete form. And I think they do have a pattern. I think, going back 20 years, I was playing, say, you know, the Jerry Lee Lewis bear family box and things like that. There's tons of archival material coming out that had, you know, lots. All the takes you'd want to hear of, you know, a Whole lot of shaking going on. I don't know why they won't follow that road unless they're afraid of blowing their wad and everything they've got comes out. Another reason might be, unlike if you think of the Dylan catalog. Where to keep putting out the bootleg series and. Well, the Beatles don't have a bootleg series. They don't have anything with the quality. This sounds terrible, but they don't have anything with the quality that Dylan has. Where you can have albums and albums and albums of good, listenable songs. That you could put out in live performances. I mean, where do the Beatles go? I mean, there are studio outtakes. They kind of put anything releasable out on Anthology already. I mean, they don't have, you know, albums and albums of unreleased gems sitting in the vaults to put out.
- [12:40]
Doug Salby
And session reels, like Columbia does with Dylan.
- [12:43]
Chip Mattinger
Right?
- [12:43]
Doug Sulpy
I mean, they just, you know, when you. Even with the session reels they put out. You listen to them and go, okay, this isn't just like Rolling Stone arranged as a waltz instead of the one we know. That's kind of cool. You hear, oh, this is just them. They don't know how to play this song yet. Wait, maybe we get to take six. And then they get to take six and go, okay, we got it. And then they stop. As soon as they get something releasable is when they stop performing their song and moved on to the next thing. So I think they were very lazy and stingy as they were recording these.
- [13:13]
Podcast Host
And that's the.
- [13:13]
Doug Salby
What you're describing is clearly for the hardest of the hardcores. It's not for everybody. It's certainly not mainstream. Part of the marketing strategy, such as it is with the Beatles catalog. Seems to be everything has got to be a zillion seller. We're going to make this the widest, lowest possible bar for acceptance by everybody. And therefore to satisfy nobody. Least of all the hardcores that have been buying everything. And I would think at some point they may justify the decision making that, well, it's Beatles, that it's sold. Therefore, we must be doing the right thing. Even though something like Anthology One. Which is this mishmash of dialogue, spoken word passages and live and demos and studio and all that stuff. It's gotta be the most resold CD in recent memory. If you walk into any used CD place, you'll see tons of Anthology 1. It's not something most people would listen to for pleasure at this point. And sort of much less want to.
- [14:09]
Doug Sulpy
Buy a revamped version of it with nothing new on it.
- [14:12]
Doug Salby
Yes, right, right. And maybe polished up the sound a little bit. But I guess if they had to do it all over again, I wonder if they would have done the logical thing, which is studio outtakes on one set of releases, live stuff on a whole other franchise. And now especially that they've got the ability to take whatever extant tapes, board recordings and things and clean them up and make them much more acceptable to listeners of modern day audience. But even at that it's a niche, you know, if you're a mainstream Beatle fan, casual listener, that's a very different appetite you have for hearing Beatles. You might want to hear the acapella because or something as a novel thing. But maybe not take two of no Reply or something like that. That's a whole different crowd. So it's a situation to put into where they've got X amount of material and they're at a loss of what's the best way to market it to the varying demographics of Beetle purchasers that they've got.
- [15:17]
Doug Sulpy
Well, as you said, I'd like to know what demographic they are. Amy keeps saying we're trying for a younger listening audience and I don't know what they can do to appeal to a younger listening audience with a band that's been, you know, gone for 50 plus years. I mean, how do you sell them on that other than the original catalog?
- [15:35]
Doug Salby
Isn't that sort of the justification for the Giles treatments is that we're going for the younger crowd, therefore we're going to turn the bass up to 11 and do all these things that they do?
- [15:45]
Doug Sulpy
Yeah, right. Which explains why I don't even listen to those things. I just test them out and go there's no point to this at all.
- [15:51]
Doug Salby
Well, that's kind of the position I've reached is that it's certainly not a replacement for the catalog. Maybe it's an alternate version. If you like the album, maybe you like to hear these different elements that might not be as apparent in the the issued product. I think of the who's catalog and when they did what they did with that where the sound is much better but then elements that were present from day one of these things released that are suddenly mixed out or they're replacing guitar solos with alternates. It's like what did they think the purpose is? If it's an audio upgrade, well then you're messing with the audio listening experience. If it's an alternate, then say it's an alternate but maybe want to clean up the original issues as released to satisfy that constituency. It's just very strange to me that these top tier acts haven't quite figured out how to deal with the best way of presenting this archival material.
- [16:46]
Doug Sulpy
Well, what I wanted to chime in is the very concept of Anthology Forward doesn't compute to me because the whole thing is chronological. 1, 2, 3, where's Ford lead you? Indy five to date. What does that mean? No, instead it's just a random sketch out of whatever, you know, what did they do, flip a coin and say Ticket to Ride, take two? How did they choose these things?
- [17:08]
Doug Salby
They're circling around the block.
- [17:10]
Doug Sulpy
Yeah. And now they've. It's completely broken any kind of, like, structure that it might have had. I mean, why even call it Anthology for. Why not call it whatever the Beatles Random Early Takes Volume one? That's what they did.
- [17:23]
Doug Salby
A marketing handle for something familiar. I suppose it's like, oh, Anthology. I kind of like that. Let's see what they got now. So all of which has led us to the point of this conversation, which is that when they announced a track listing for Anthology 4, I don't know how many people were like, hallelujah so much as they were like, well, wait a minute, half the stuff on here. Didn't we get this already on the SDEs? And if they wanted to cull from the existing packages, so far there's been Let It Be, Abbey Road, White Album, Pepper Revolver, so that's five. Make a best of the outtakes. That might have been one thing. But to your point, calling it Anthology 4, and then throwing in a selection of other material that hasn't made it out yet, it's like, who is this meant for the people who didn't buy the SDEs already?
- [18:12]
Doug Sulpy
Yeah. Or if you're going to give us fixing a whole Take five, don't give it to us from the sergeant Pepper box. Give us Take six. Something.
- [18:20]
Doug Salby
Yeah.
- [18:20]
Doug Sulpy
Put some effort into this other than, you know, queuing up something we already own and making us buy it again.
- [18:26]
Doug Salby
Right.
- [18:27]
Doug Sulpy
Because Even on Anthology 4, there's a lot of repetition going on. It's like you can't even feel that.
- [18:32]
Doug Salby
Right. And to your point earlier about this.
- [18:35]
Podcast Host
Stuff, it's like, if you are already.
- [18:37]
Doug Salby
An owner of volumes one through three of Anthology, what is it that's going to make you want to rebuy them now that they've been remastered without any real change in the presentation? The things that was wrong before is wrong now. Good for you. If you never bought them and now you're getting them all in one fell swoop to get Anthology 4. But then they changed their minds. Like, well, now you could buy Anthology 4 separate anymore.
- [18:58]
Doug Sulpy
A lot of fans are disappointed. It's like we get those sessions mixes again in the 20 years you didn't go back and make it.
- [19:06]
Doug Salby
Not that they've shown in the past, like with the BBC stuff, things that got complained about there, they retweaked, they tightened up the edits, they took out the noise reduction, I believe. I mean, things that people beefed about.
- [19:19]
Doug Sulpy
I think they got rid of some of the crossfades too, didn't they?
- [19:21]
Podcast Host
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [19:22]
Doug Salby
Yeah. So they showed a capacity for listening to their constituency in those cases. So I don't know what's going on with Anthology. A lot of it seems to be done, this is my impression as a consumer, to be done in haste, not very thoughtfully. And again, to circle back what we've talked about already. It just seems like everybody else on Earth is doing this stuff way better than the Beatles are. Well, take a lesson. And they're not doing that. So the reason I wanted to do a discussion of this with the guy who has been studying this and presenting his research on it for decades now is that surely, if you're going to. Let's just buy this concept for a moment, Anthology four, not quibble about the disruption of the timeline and all that stuff. The chronology. What can you give us as an all new package that we as hardcore fans and consumers and knowledgeable about the stuff that's out there, stuff we know to exist that they're not giving us now? And now they've tipped their hand what the contents actually is. It's like, what the hell are you thinking? You can easily fill two discs of. Of stuff that you haven't given us to this point that we know is out there. And that's not even addressing potentially, you can open up the door to. Well, we'll go to the Nagras. There's plenty of material at Twickenham that exists only at Twickenham that, as plenty of amateurs have been doing, you can mallet and break it down and create stereo mixes from the mono source material to make a wonderful, wonderful listening experience on songs like Susie's Parlor and Palace or Castle, the King of Birds and a Beatles version of All Things Must Pass. There's plenty of things to work with there, right?
- [21:17]
Chip Mattinger
Everybody gets well done.
- [21:29]
Doug Sulpy
Can remember that terrible second disc of Let It Be Naked that they gave us that stuff. It's like that's the way they would.
- [21:36]
Doug Salby
Handle that project which is satisfying to nobody.
- [21:39]
Doug Sulpy
Right.
- [21:40]
Doug Salby
The same thing with the live recordings. The word has been for some time now, maybe you know more about this than I do that Peter Jackson. Jackson acquired the Star Club tapes. That is a treatment waiting to happen for what's clearly some spirited, worthwhile performances that never sounded good, turned off half the listening audience, but could be brought into something resembling a listenable Beatle club experience. It should be its own package, I would think. Unless they wanted to tease My Girl's Red Hot. We've not heard that in any form officially yet. That would be a great teaser. Clean that up and put that out as something that could be folded into this as a new compilation. So really we just wanted to present what in our opinion would be obvious things not put out in any official version yet that they haven't done.
- [22:24]
Doug Sulpy
Well, my choice for that would be the songs the Beatles gave away. And get the home demos for all the songs that they gave away.
- [22:42]
Chip Mattinger
You really make my wish come true.
- [22:52]
Doug Sulpy
All of them are known to exist now. We've heard samples of little bits of them and we have a couple of them. Those are perfect to be cleaned up and put out. And they're all compositions good enough to have been issued by somebody. So that's a kind of no brainer after the BBC stuff which is already out. And it seems to me that's where the attention would go if you want to put on a disc of like, quality, listenable, unreleased Beatles performances.
- [23:18]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [23:18]
Doug Salby
And to call those songs out, that material out by name. We've got Misery Bad To Me I'm In Love it's for you, Tip of my tongue.
- [23:27]
Doug Sulpy
World.
- [23:28]
Doug Salby
Yeah, right. World Without Love. Some of the stuff we've heard, some of it we have heard it described. So somebody's heard it. Step Inside Love. There's a bunch of things out there that they've not even acknowledged with what they've announced that they're putting out.
- [23:43]
Doug Sulpy
Yeah. I think virtually all of them and I think they own all of them. I keep joking, like, are they waiting for Stella's grandchild's wedding anniversary? What are they waiting for here?
- [23:54]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [23:54]
Doug Salby
And I don't know what your thoughts are in particular about Carnival of Light. Plenty of people said, I think Lewison and John Barrett might be some of the few people have actually heard it and know what they're talking about. That it's a sonic experimentation. Not worth a repeat listen. I would say some of the material on the anthologies that came out is not terribly worth a repeat list. Listen. But it's top of the list for anybody who's a hardcore fan of something we know that exists. We know it was them during the Pepper sessions. All four of the Beatles are there. It may be a musical. Some people would say that's what Revolution 9 is, and we've got that. Why not put it out? I thought the Pepper box set was exactly the perfect home for it. Because God knows there's tons of stuff there that doesn't bear repeat listings either. It fits the context as something that sheds light and informs a Fulvia where their heads were at while they were working on that project. That is exactly the context to put out something like that.
- [24:47]
Doug Sulpy
Well, I don't know what your thoughts are, but I question when you say things don't come out. Who is it? Is it the estate? Is it Paul, Ringo and the other two that make all these decisions? Does Universal have any input on this other than we'd like to put this out and the other guys all say no?
- [25:03]
Doug Salby
Anecdotally, we hear that Paul's been dying to get this out, that he almost had it out for Anthology 2 and George shot it down. So does that mean Olivia, in her seat at the table as representing the estate, is going to continue Georgia's position? Because if that's the case, well, then what happened with Now? And then he was against that too, and somehow that came out.
- [25:22]
Podcast Host
It doesn't really.
- [25:24]
Doug Salby
There's not a logic to it that makes any sense. But that should have been the opportunity to put that out. Even if it takes up 13 minutes of real estate. Put it out on streaming.
- [25:33]
Doug Sulpy
Are they even thinking of along artistic lines or are they just thinking of, damn, it's October, what can make us money this Christmas?
- [25:40]
Doug Salby
And that's the thing that would have gotten. That would have hyped the hell out of that, right? All four Beatles on it. It's something that's got such a myth attached to it. And I get to where, oh, people hear it like they're disappointed and the Beatles are human.
- [25:52]
Podcast Host
This is awful.
- [25:53]
Doug Salby
Never should have got out. That may be, but I would argue we've gotten things that are less.
- [25:57]
Podcast Host
Less intriguing.
- [25:59]
Doug Sulpy
Look at the way they put out the Christmas singles. Finally. Yeah, you put out the worst thing possible. Configuration of these things. Instead of sounding better, they sound worse. They're only on vinyl, they're mastered too low and they're expensive. It's like, that's it. All right, well, if you want to exploit the market, isn't there something better? Maybe like, you know, a CD or streaming?
- [26:20]
Doug Salby
Even knowing that we've got a ton of outtakes that they could have fleshed that out and made a wonderful two disc package out of that. There's so much stuff that we have heard that's been in circulation forever that would make that a perfect standalone release. But apparently there's still too many first gen fans alive so we can't have that. We'll have to wait till they're all gone before we even think about giving something.
- [26:42]
Doug Sulpy
Well, that's what I was about to say. Sometimes I. Are you waiting for the boomer generation to not exist? Hey Terry.
- [26:51]
Doug Salby
Yeah? It's crazy. It doesn't make any sense. Why?
- [26:54]
Doug Sulpy
Because who do you think is going to be your primary market? After all, the people who grew up with the Beatles aren't here.
- [27:00]
Doug Salby
That's putting your finger on exactly the thing. Because I don't know that Gen Z gives a damn about studio outtakes because maybe they don't have the same reverence that first gen fans have for the Beatles and anything that they put on tape. So if you're going forward not having the same devotion, it's not going to make sense in 2050 to finally put this stuff out when you've killed off every first gen fan who really really wanted it. And I don't know how many deep pocketed first gen Beatle fans there are that are going to want to buy these flexpositions.
- [27:31]
Doug Sulpy
Are the people behind this just basically, I mean the family is the worst thing ever to happen to this catalog. Are the people just so financially comfortable and set for the rest of their lives and their descendants lives that they just don't care? It's like, you know, they act very stingy but they can't possibly need the money. They're Beatles Incorporated.
- [27:50]
Doug Salby
It just doesn't make any sense to be sitting on all this stuff in the prime time of reach of audience that is interested in this stuff and now you have the tools by the way to make it listenable and marketable. It does not make any sense. Other things that we've talked about, demos, other artists, demos that they, we know were recorded and there's, there's demos for Beatle material. Like she said, she said, you know, we know of things through the lost Lennon tapes. There's tons of things out there never been marketed properly. Yes, there was a Lennon anthology, but there's still things out there that could be put out there. Is there anything suggest itself to you that's like an obvious no brainer?
- [28:31]
Doug Sulpy
No, not really. I mean I'd like to say live concerts but you know as well as I do that's not. The later live ones are not very good. And the ones that are good, they've already kind of dealt with with the Hollywood bowl that kind of, you know. Why do you need any 64 or 65 concerts anymore?
- [28:46]
Doug Salby
Yeah, there are any number of things out there that's been bootlegged. Some sound better than others and they could potentially clean them up, you know, like a Sam Houston or a Philadelphia 64.
- [28:58]
Guest Performer
Thank before we do the next number. Like you to wait a minute while George changes his guitar. Changing his guitar. The song we're going to do when he's ready is a song from the new new movie we just made called the Hard Day Night. It's a slow song and it's called if I Fell Over. If I fell in love with you and you promised to be true and help me understand. Cause I've been in love before and I found that love was more than just holding hands if I give my heart.
- [29:56]
Doug Salby
Definitely it's a niche. I don't know how many people are interested in the same.
- [30:01]
Doug Sulpy
They revamped Shea and Washington D.C. they didn't put them out. I mean they put them out as go to a theater and watch Shea or buy itunes and watch Washington. But these things aren't really worth actually issuing for anyone.
- [30:14]
Doug Salby
Well, if they did, I mean this would have been the year for Shay. You could have hyped the hell out of that. And yeah, they don't have all the footage. You've probably seen the YouTube one somebody put out that I'm astonished has not been taken down yet. Where they did some decent reconstructions of She's a woman and everybody's trying to be my baby. So the possibilities with people who have their hands on the source material are out there. But again, going back to things we know that exist. Another early thing, the acetate cut at the Cavern. Some other guy. Kansas City. We got a bit of Kansas City in anthology. Why not just make it official? Put the whole thing out. Things that I don't know are still in the vaults, but maybe it just takes somebody to look because they were described in Lewison's recording sessions. There's the take of Dr. Robert that runs like almost a full minute longer before they excise some stuff from that. That would be nice to hear. We know about. It's all too much. There's various iterations and fan made mixes of that. The eight minute take of that. Another no brainer. It's not a controversial song. Why the hell not Even the Promo take, such as it is, of Revolution, the fast version with the Shooby Doo Wops, it'd be nice to have a nice clean version of that. Lewiston described the backwards guitar pre Clapton take of While My Guitar Gently Weeps. So if that means that he heard it, why haven't we. Why wasn't that part of the 50th white album box? Is it misfiled? They just think nobody wants to hear it.
- [31:45]
Doug Sulpy
I don't know, it's probably more. They're thinking along the lines of remixing stuff right now and they seem to be exploiting the compilations. I mean, like our next year we're going to get like an anniversary of we're going to get love too. I mean, I don't want to sound overly caustic, but after a few years of this waiting for a rubber soul box that never came, it's like, like, you know, when are you guys gonna stop letting us down here? Because I think even hardcore Beatle fans are getting a little jaded at this point.
- [32:16]
Podcast Host
Do you think a lot of it.
- [32:18]
Doug Salby
Is just the politics and whims of the parties involved? For instance, we talked about Carnival of Light and if Olivia might be the person blocking that because she's trying to respect George's wishes, at least that's a reason. It's not a good reason, but it's a reason. Now, we've heard anecdotally that of the Decca stuff that hasn't come out there is the one McCartney song that is not of the three originals, the one that Paul apparently doesn't like. Is that what's holding that up? Because now it's back in the news suddenly this year with the guy in Vancouver finding the tape that people are saying this is the best sounding version yet, possibly a dub off the master session reel. Now, Paul was just handed it by the guy, no money changed hands. Does that mean it's going into the Apple black hole of stuff never to be heard again?
- [33:09]
Doug Sulpy
Of which, yes, it's going into the Indiana Jones vault.
- [33:12]
Doug Salby
Yeah, yeah, like the Quarryman tape of the day they were introduced. We've been told that the Cavern session from Was it July of 62 is like abysmal sound. Well, you've got the tools to clean it up a little bit, but I would argue you can make a terrific 1962 box set if you you wanted to, bookended by Dec at one end, the Star Club on the other. Maybe you might find something from that Cavern tape that's usable, maybe not. But what about cleaning up the Pete Best, BBC recordings that have not been officially issued to this point. I'm sure you could do something with that. Then you've got the aforementioned, some other guy, Kansas City. There's room to create a very comprehensive 1962 box set. The Jeff Emmerich tape. Who's laying claim to that these days? Is it really the 6-6-Pete best test? And the outtakes we haven't heard to this point.
- [34:06]
Doug Sulpy
Well, and all the material that they have that we don't have a clue exists.
- [34:10]
Doug Salby
Right.
- [34:10]
Doug Sulpy
I mean, you know, there's Lennon Holm tapes that we know exist from 63 of him composing songs that we haven't heard before. And God only knows what McCartney has.
- [34:21]
Doug Salby
Yeah.
- [34:21]
Doug Sulpy
What have we heard? 40 seconds, if we can work it out. I mean. Yeah, that's really nice. Where's your tape of that, Paul? Because don't tell me you erased it. He probably never erased to anything that he sings on. Oh, yeah, I don't think he's actually. Anything from his archive has come out that way.
- [34:36]
Doug Salby
No. It's very strange. Every once in a while he'll let slip something that apparently Linda took a photo of the Ivy mine session from 1970. It's like you've been sitting on that for 50 plus years.
- [34:47]
Podcast Host
What are we going to see?
- [34:48]
Doug Salby
What else you've got? And now he's like trickling out the 64 pictures. That's great. That's great. Are you going to do this now as a series throughout the 60s of whatever else you've got in your vault? It would be nice to see this stuff. But again, you're racing against the clock in terms of maximum interest from the fans that got you here.
- [35:08]
Doug Sulpy
Yeah, I don't care about pictures. I know what they look like.
- [35:11]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [35:11]
Doug Salby
But at least we know he has them. And at least he's shown a willingness to share them, such as it is very sparingly. But yes, to your point about what is in his vault besides a half demo? We can work it out. And John, clearly the guy that you would least think interested in archiving his own stuff. Well, a whole ton of that stuff came out in lost Lennon tapes. One thing we haven't heard is his demo for Good Night. Does that exist? Be wonderful to hear his vocal on that.
- [35:39]
Doug Sulpy
Well, one thing is we've got a list of the lost Lennon tapes that were handed over tape. The Lennon tapes that were handed over to the lost Lennon tapes from John's archive. So we, you know, we know what was on a lot of those tapes. The one thing that we don't know is what's on all the tapes that weren't handed over to the lost Lennon tapes people. Because a lot of what was handed over was like, you know, Mellotron tapes and comedy routines and endless, you know, Meet City takes and later stuff. It's like, where's all John's Beatle composing tapes? A couple of them snuck out, you know, like two minutes of Good Morning, Good Morning and hey Bulldog and stuff like that and lots of Strawberry Fields. But where's the good stuff here? I have a feeling that was never handed over. So that was never documented, that was never bootlegged. That's still sitting there in reserv. So I bet there's a good archive of stuff there too.
- [36:33]
Doug Salby
Yeah.
- [36:33]
Doug Sulpy
Waiting to be discovered. But if they're not gonna, you know, nobody can make them put anything out. And if nobody's gonna be in there to go through these things and try to assemble projects like that, we're probably just gonna live the rest of our lives and never hear anything.
- [36:47]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [36:48]
Doug Salby
There's nobody curating it, but it makes you wonder to what end. If you've got a mountain of things, you're leaving money on the table because somebody's gonna buy it. If you put it out in some kind of at least halfway smart.
- [36:58]
Doug Sulpy
This podcast is going to make a lot of Rolling Stones fans. Title fans are going to be despondent.
- [37:04]
Podcast Host
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:06]
Doug Salby
Is there any stuff we touched on video a moment ago? Is there things that, you know to exist video wise that are obvious? No brainers that would be of big fan interest, that remain in the vaults that nobody's touched at this point?
- [37:21]
Doug Sulpy
That's tough. We don't really know. I mean, how do we know what we don't know? The most interesting thing to me is they put out little tiny bits and snippets. More of the Males, brothers and Beatles 64 documentary. It's like, oh my God. You have the, like the best possible period and you have on the spot, lots of documentation of it and you've dribbled it out in various forms over the last 50 years. Can you just put out the friggin 7 hours of footage that you got of whatever it is. I don't care if they're just sitting there drinking. I mean, just stop chopping it up and putting out bits, bits and pieces. Any parts of Beatles 64 in February that I see are wonderful to me.
- [38:01]
Doug Salby
Sure. Absolutely.
- [38:02]
Doug Sulpy
To me, that's the high point of their career because even by the end of that career you could see their personalities have changed and they've gotten, they've turned to the not so happy Beatles and they never got, you know, they never came back to what they were earlier.
- [38:16]
Chip Mattinger
Right.
- [38:16]
Doug Salby
I find it interesting that apparently the Lenin estate, his license or gotten control of of the 72 IRV Cups in it show in Chicago that we knew about, had been unbootlegged until it's not even been bootlegged as far as I know. Every clip I've seen, they parcel out little bits. There might have been a bit of it in eight days a week if I remember right. But it's another one of those missing pieces that wasn't in circulation. And if you go back to the 60s and Beatle era, I know there's gotta be more things like that. TV show appearances believed to have been wiped, but maybe not not or for whatever reason just under really tight control that has not to this point escaped the vaults. And it keeps coming back to the same point. If not now, when? Because right now you are at the maximum point of interest from people that.
- [39:02]
Doug Sulpy
Have a passion that fans have taken it upon themselves to archive, reconstruct audio over, mix the audio into stereo. Once they've dubbed it over, re edit. It's, you know, infinitely. And yes, that's great. But nothing beats the official sources and people with the money to access the official sources and putting things out. They did a little bit of that with the one Blu Ray some years back. I mean at least we got some promo films out of them.
- [39:30]
Doug Salby
Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that. What do you think about the nibbling around of edges in terms of every time Beatles 1 comes out, they change something. Suddenly you've got a different George Harrison lead guitar solo or something like that. What is that about?
- [39:44]
Doug Sulpy
Oh, you're talking about the audio. Yeah, Oh, I was talking about the, the, the Blu Rays.
- [39:47]
Doug Salby
Yeah, yeah, Well, I mean. Oh, you're talking about the Blu Ray audio.
- [39:50]
Doug Sulpy
Okay, I ignored. I just don't pay any attention to this, you know, it's like what is when he did what pepper and left a guitar part out of a day in the life that 100 million fans would have listened to and go wait, that's wrong, that shouldn't be like that. And he goes, oh, well I didn't know because I don't know that much about him. It's like, why are you doing this?
- [40:09]
Doug Salby
You just reminded me there's another thing that again is low hanging fruit as far as something that the, a lot of fans are vaguely aware of because of Anthology or at least no Not Anthology. I think it was the subsequent Abbey Road work done with Giles. There's a lead electric guitar part on Here Comes the Sun that wasn't used.
- [40:41]
Guest Performer
Sam. Little darling I feel that I see.
- [41:13]
Doug Salby
It slowly melting now that that horse has escaped the stable. Why not put it out just as something that nobody's really heard before? And presumably it would be the optimum sound because you've got the source material rather than somebody scraping the audio off a video that leaked out for a few seconds.
- [41:31]
Doug Sulpy
Well, that's what I was talking about a Crimson earlier. And they putting it. They're also putting out in these boxes. They call them the elemental mixes. Or what they're doing is they're taking the multi tracks and focusing on elements that you might not have been paying attention to and bringing up tracks that were originally not used because they would record guitar solos several times. So you can make infinite different versions of the exact same performance using the same multi tracks. The Beatles obviously didn't have as many multi tracks, so they're not going to have as many unheard things on the multi tracks, you know. But it would be nice to put focus out like that because right now it seems like while we're trying to duplicate what was on the original records but not doing that particularly well all the time. So sometimes we'll accidentally hear something like the extra beat in Ballad of John and Yoko where it comes to a stop and suddenly it doesn't anymore. It's like, oh, that's because you guys just screwed up and put it in there. Didn't realize what you were doing. You know, it'd be kind of nice thing to hear. Or just single track mixes. Oh God, I would love to hear lots of those. I want to hear one. John Lennon. Singh. Tell me why I don't want to hear five of them.
- [42:38]
Chip Mattinger
Sure.
- [42:38]
Doug Sulpy
Even want to hear one. Ringo Singh. Matchbox. And not three of them. You know, I'll go that far. I mean that's just my personal taste.
- [42:45]
Doug Salby
Uh huh. Yeah, that's valid. That would be something. Be a different listening experience and boost his presence on any package they put out. Is there anything you know about through your years of writing about this stuff and researching it? That is a satisfying, obvious sort of thing that has been there in plain sight. Or maybe not so plain sight, but something you're aware of that you cannot understand why they've not put out to this point?
- [43:10]
Doug Sulpy
Not really. That you haven't mentioned. You mentioned most of them. I mean we've mentioned the home demos and the P Bus for BBC performances. And those are only a hair. The best versions are only a hair below some of the other material they did put out. So the quality excuse really doesn't hold with that. And it is the Beatles doing songs that we don't have them doing anywhere else. There's kind of no reason for that to not be out. I mean, they could have added it to this project that's coming up, but they didn't. I'd love to know the rationale for putting what they put on this box on this Anthology four that's coming out. Yeah. It seems to me almost like just whatever. Random.
- [43:49]
Doug Salby
Right. And why they made the decision to scoop so much off of existing releases that presumably every hardcore already has. Why are you repeating material? Because if this is meant to incent people who didn't buy those to buy them, then just go out and create a best of separate release of the bonus material that might have made sense and do it thematically. You could do it 66 to 70 or whatever and then backtrack when you get around to doing your 50th, please please me. And with the Beatles and Hard Days Night and all that stuff, have a separate Best of the outtakes release for the. That you've doubtless heard the rubber sole session reel for. Think for Yourself.
- [44:28]
Doug Sulpy
Yeah.
- [44:29]
Doug Salby
Is that something you think is a valid thing to include in a Rubber Soul?
- [44:33]
Doug Sulpy
What I would do, I would make that. Here's a code. Download it if you want it.
- [44:37]
Doug Salby
Okay.
- [44:38]
Doug Sulpy
Because that's pretty much like Carnival of Light. It's like, yeah, who's going to listen to this?
- [44:42]
Podcast Host
Yeah, right.
- [44:43]
Doug Sulpy
That's the guy. I think I listened to it once and said, yeah, there's seven seconds of music and. Okay.
- [44:49]
Podcast Host
Yeah, yeah.
- [44:49]
Doug Salby
Just to err on the side of inclusivity, I guess. It's a big piece of tape, which we don't have a whole lot of.
- [44:56]
Doug Sulpy
They did that in order, I think, to get something for the Christmas. So that would be kind of cool to put on a set of those things.
- [45:02]
Doug Salby
It would be for sure.
- [45:04]
Doug Sulpy
Yeah. I don't even know if they have all the source tapes for any of those anymore.
- [45:07]
Doug Salby
Of the Christmas messages. Yeah, yeah. It's funny because I remember back early 90s or whenever it was that some of the outtakes from the 64 hello Dolly stuff that got trimmed, where did that end up? Because presumably for something designed to be ephemeral, it wouldn't have been archived. They weren't done at emi.
- [45:25]
Doug Sulpy
Right.
- [45:26]
Doug Salby
They were done at Dick James demo studio. So I was astonished. That stuff even existed. But something like.
- [45:32]
Podcast Host
I don't know.
- [45:33]
Doug Salby
Off the top of my head.66667 when they were doing the ambitious things Christmas Time Is Here Again and Everywhere It's Christmas. Were those done at emi? Would they have been multi tracked? At least the musical sequences? I don't know.
- [45:46]
Podcast Host
Know.
- [45:46]
Doug Salby
But it suggests.
- [45:47]
Doug Sulpy
So they released the long Christmas Time Is Here Again.
- [45:51]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [45:51]
Doug Salby
Again. It's almost like a carnival.
- [45:53]
Doug Sulpy
Light.
- [45:53]
Doug Salby
Light. Because it's like. I don't know how many times you want to sit through that. All the way through. But I'm glad it exists.
- [45:58]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [45:58]
Doug Sulpy
Well, that's why they edited it.
- [46:00]
Podcast Host
Yeah, you'd have to.
- [46:01]
Doug Salby
So I guess if we were the one sitting at the corporate board table, would we have a concept in place where forget about everything that's come out this point. What would be in our ideal world? How would we want to handle everything that's in the vaults to this point? Would we want to break it down by demos? Is one release live? Is another release studio outtakes? Or is it better to arrange it chronologically? Does that make sense if it's done a la Dillon bootleg, where each release focuses on a different period or around a particular release? How would you like to see that done in a way that would be appealing and do justice to the material?
- [46:40]
Doug Sulpy
What I would do if I had ultimate power over the world is say every single take of every single song. Song and be up on itunes tomorrow for 99 cents each. And here you go. They get to count their $10 billion tomorrow. We get to have everything we ever wanted to hear. Everybody's happy.
- [46:58]
Doug Salby
Did you pay particular mind to when they did that copyright dump of the 63 material? Because it's been so long. I don't remember the specifics too much. Were there any gems in there that should have been put on an official release? Or was it just throwing this out there because we have it and nothing really to see your folks?
- [47:17]
Doug Sulpy
I don't think there was anything too exciting in there. I mean there were things. There was some stereo stuff we had on only in mono on bootlegs, but we'd had a lot of those Please Please Me sessions already on boot. And of course the BBC sessions you know, we'd already had. And a lot of those they took off of boots.
- [47:33]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [47:34]
Doug Sulpy
They didn't even put up necessarily the best versions of those songs.
- [47:37]
Doug Salby
Yeah, interesting. I know that the 69 Abbey Road set that the demo of Goodbye. There's better versions in circulation than what they gave us. My memory on that. So it is interesting. It just seems to be a pattern of being haphazard and thrown together, not properly curated. The way other, other artists handle their catalog.
- [47:55]
Doug Sulpy
Well, we don't know who's curating it. And when you do get somebody who's a real fan, I mean, I think Peter Jackson is a super fan. I know he's a super fan. And he wanted to put out the two more hours of get back on the Blu Ray. Then they just said, no, you can't do that. And it's like, why? You've already streamed this on Disney. You know, it's already circulated on the Internet. You're now giving people no reason to buy the Blu Ray.
- [48:21]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [48:22]
Doug Salby
And who do you think is buying it?
- [48:24]
Doug Sulpy
Why would you do that if your purpose is to sell the Blu Ray when you have the guy wanting to put the bonus material on the Blu Ray? Why would you do that? What are you saving these two hours for? Or you know, you just hate your fans.
- [48:38]
Chip Mattinger
All of a sudd.
- [48:41]
Doug Salby
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. It's depressing that the people who have the control are not seeing it through the eyes.
- [48:49]
Doug Sulpy
Well, it is because my, one of my, one of the objections I had is like, you know, I enjoyed watching all the get back footage, of course, but it's like, yeah, but you'd almost think watching it you get a better sense or let it be that they actually made music like whole songs, whole performances. A lot of that was missing. They figured it was already and let it be, but that would have been what was put back. I assume it's like, here's whole takes of whole songs. You know, even the 31st really got short shift on that documentary for some reason.
- [49:19]
Doug Salby
Oh yes.
- [49:20]
Doug Sulpy
So yeah, it would have been fuller and better if they'd have done that. But now that ship has sailed and there's never going to go back to that.
- [49:27]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [49:28]
Doug Sulpy
And now, you know, what's the new ship is Anthology. Who feels nostalgic about Anthology? I mean I, I personally enjoyed it when it was aired on tv. I never made it through the lasers of those things. I think after the first hour or two, I went, yeah, whatever. Either I know this story or I don't believe what they're saying or I've seen all this footage or who cares?
- [49:52]
Doug Salby
I expect you had seen the director's cut that came out back when you get various stagings of Paul telling exactly the same story in a different blather.
- [50:04]
Doug Sulpy
About the same stories. And I can't believe it didn't mean anything to me. I Don't think that would add anything.
- [50:09]
Doug Salby
Well, look, he's sitting in front of a campfire, and now he's on a boat, and now he's. You know, it's just insane. But I guess it's insight into how the sausage is made. I guess I don't see that making official release in any form.
- [50:21]
Doug Sulpy
Yeah, I would like to say lots of positive things. It's tough to come up with lots of positive things to say.
- [50:27]
Doug Salby
Any final thoughts or anything? We got it covered here.
- [50:30]
Chip Mattinger
Here.
- [50:30]
Doug Sulpy
No, seriously. I mean, I'm trying to find something positive to say here. I guess the end result is for 20 bucks we get 35 minutes of music we haven't heard. I guess in that 35 minutes, I'll probably put it on and be happy and go, all right, Beatles I haven't heard. But at some point that just makes me want the other Many, many, many hours of Beatles that I haven't heard. I mean, what frosts me is in listening to these SDEs that they would. Backing tracks bore the hell out of me. I don't care. I don't want to hear the track of Rain, for heaven's sake. I certainly don't want to hear the Strings Fell in original. Don't hear anything like that. Who cares? They weren't about musicianship, really. They were about singing. And then you get to the point of their career where they were singing live to all the songs, and then they don't give us any takes of anything. It's like, okay, why don't you give us the. With the Beatles takes where they're singing all the time? I want to hear that John Lennon sing anything. I don't care if it's nine takes or something I've heard before. It's like, that would be super special. And you guys have it. Why don't we have it at all? Again, what are you waiting for here?
- [51:39]
Doug Salby
I don't know. It's interesting to me that there are things that we know exist because they've been described by writers through the years. For instance, the Peggy sue got married at the I Me. My session of the three Beatles. People got access. People got to hear this and wrote about it. And therefore it's in circulation. It's not been bootlegged. And that would be an obvious thing. Because if you're trying to bring the general public into the world of the Beatles in the studio, and it's not anything you're gonna put them necessarily in any kind of negative light. It's something that, as they proved by getting in bed with Disney. They're all about sugarcoating the Beatles story. They're all about let's downplay the negative and upplay the friendship and all that stuff. So there are things that we know exist that would be a great little snapshot of that. You know, they gave us part of it. They gave us George's announcement, dz, Dozy Dave and all that. You know, we got that little taste of it. But why not all of it? It's an easy thing.
- [52:37]
Doug Sulpy
Well, even in Get Back though, taken from the mindset of a standard viewer, you know, not a super Beatle fan, it's like they were likely to come away thinking, well, that's a lot of bad music. There wasn't that much good music in there. You can't. I mean, they didn't play that much good music. And still lots of people watched it and enjoyed it and it did well, which to me shows. Maybe they don't have to be so picky about the musical quality of what outtakes they would put out legitimately in the future.
- [53:07]
Doug Salby
Right, Exactly.
- [53:08]
Doug Sulpy
But what package would they put those out in? How would they present those? Even with the Revolver box that they put out, that was pretty stingy too. You have all the sessions for all the Revolver songs. We get a disc, maybe a disc full of stuff at best. Like, that's it.
- [53:25]
Doug Salby
Yeah. We could have had the Dr. Robert with the extra minute in it. That would have made sense. Rather than strings only Eleanor Rigby. It's interesting, but how many people are going to listen to it more than once? What about the tape loops for Tomorrow Never Knows? Do we have those separated? That would have been a nice little attract compilation of some of the isolated elements.
- [53:44]
Doug Sulpy
Or an Easter egg, Right?
- [53:46]
Doug Salby
Exactly, exactly.
- [53:47]
Podcast Host
Exactly.
- [53:47]
Doug Salby
Very cool.
- [53:48]
Doug Sulpy
Yeah, yeah. Or a Blu Ray with the set with the many videos from that era. That would have been nice too, guys. So either they don't have somebody archivally minded who's behind all these things, or they just kind of don't care and they just want to make their money.
- [54:06]
Chip Mattinger
Right?
- [54:07]
Doug Salby
It's going to sell what it sells. We don't have to extend that much effort.
- [54:11]
Podcast Host
Really.
- [54:11]
Doug Sulpy
Well, then they have a point there. That means some degree of what if they'd have not put out Anthology for separate? There would have been a big bunch of Beetle fans who would have gone and bought it nonetheless, because it has the word Beatles on it and it came out and they need it on their shelf right next to all their other stuff.
- [54:28]
Doug Salby
Which makes me wonder, did they in fact respond to the Buzz out there, the negative buzz about we gotta buy the first three all over again to get this. Or is it something they kind of planned all along and it makes them look like the good guys?
- [54:40]
Doug Sulpy
Maybe somebody went on the Steve Hoffman board and said, oh my God, even these people are complaining. If we were kind of losing these people, you know, we're in trouble.
- [54:48]
Doug Salby
That's our constituency.
- [54:50]
Doug Sulpy
Yeah, Right. Yeah.
- [54:51]
Podcast Host
I think it is going to be.
- [54:52]
Doug Salby
Easier for the real hardcores going forward to say no to this stuff when it remains unsatisfying.
- [54:58]
Doug Sulpy
Yeah, I think so too. And I hope next year they come up with something far more exciting to put out.
- [55:04]
Doug Salby
Yeah. I don't know how many big anniversaries there are in a year ending with six. So if you got the wind down of the touring year. So maybe they'll give us Tokyo. I don't know who's going to care at this point.
- [55:14]
Doug Sulpy
That would be anticlimactic.
- [55:16]
Doug Salby
You think?
- [55:16]
Doug Sulpy
I mean, in the extreme, both Tokyo shows good. That's what they're fighting against. They're fighting against putting out stuff everyone has already seen. I mean, how can you hype that to. You can't hype it to, you know, the general consumer because it's pretty bad. And you can't hype it to the hardcore fan because they already have it. So, I mean, I can kind of see why they would pass that by. So they're going to have to dig a little deeper and find something, you know, exciting in there that no one's ever heard. And maybe their own personal archives are the answer because probably they all have a lot of demos and acetates and things like that that they've kept over the years that aren't in the vaults. And we don't even have what's in the vaults.
- [55:55]
Doug Salby
Right? Yeah. Make it available, at least by streaming would be nice. This episode is brought to you by Indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed sponsored Jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure.
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Doug Salby
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Doug Salby
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- [56:29]
Doug Sulpy
Hello, friends.
- [56:30]
Guest Performer
Guess who?
- [56:31]
Doug Salby
That's right.
- [56:32]
Guest Performer
It is I, the replacer. Once again, I've been called on so you can play the new Call of.
- [56:38]
Doug Salby
Duty Black Ops 7. With three expansive modes, 18 multiplayer maps, and the tastiest zombie gameplay you've ever.
- [56:48]
Doug Sulpy
Freaking seen Call of Duty Black Ops 7 available now. Rated M for mature.
- [56:57]
Doug Salby
You don't have to build a package around it necessarily. All we want is action success.
- [57:00]
Podcast Host
So Chip, is there a gold standard out there in archival reissues that you see?
- [57:05]
Chip Mattinger
Yes, I think probably the gold standard would be either the King Crimson back catalog or the Jethro Toll catalog. All the Tolls are still on Chrysalis. Oh, and the King Crimsons are on Internaut, I believe, which is Frips label.
- [57:25]
Doug Salby
Yeah, and it's funny because Doug Sope.
- [57:27]
Podcast Host
Brought up King Crimson as well and based on everything he said, and you could probably attest to this, it seems like everything if you are a hardcore fan. And granted King Crimson was not the most mainstream of groups, but every kind of studio outtake and just whatever is in the vaults basically they make available. Is that pretty accurate?
- [57:47]
Chip Mattinger
Right. Either as a download or in these boxes. And they're going back now and remixing the albums in Dolby Atmos, which is worth the price of admission along with own. So between those two, they've got it very well covered. Tall, on the other hand is got some more interesting material at times. Actually it's a toss up. They're. They're both great.
- [58:09]
Podcast Host
But it's easy to conclude that plenty of people out there that aren't the Beatles are doing it better than them.
- [58:15]
Chip Mattinger
Yes. Probably not marketing to the same. Clearly not the same number of people, but yeah, I think they're better than the Beatles.
- [58:24]
Podcast Host
I think it's fair to say there's probably a higher percentage of music customers, music consumers in the world that would be interested in studio outtakes of Beatles than there would be of these two groups. And yet do you get the sense that they're being underserved or there's not a coherence to the way these projects are being put together.
- [58:44]
Chip Mattinger
I think they might still be trying to see how they can monetize the catalog in the future. They're not ready to give us everything yet. Like the Crimson for example. Every X Instant Studio take is being included on these new Blu Ray packages.
- [59:00]
Podcast Host
Are they also doing live recordings?
- [59:02]
Chip Mattinger
Live recordings were picked up on a 40th anniversary set which is 20 discs for each one of them. And I think they're maybe 12. So there's no way I could ever make it through them all again to listen to them. But it's there if we want to hear it. I mean there's. The Crimsons include audience tapes up to fantastic soundboards just so that you have it all in one place.
- [59:25]
Podcast Host
That's amazing. So there is a recognition by some entities, some reissue entities, that even if the audience is yay small, they're going to give them everything because they want to serve that faction out there that wants to hear absolutely everything, no matter how small. And I would think the smallest of the small Beatle audience that wants to hear everything is still going to be considerably bigger. And to your point, point of holding back because they want to monetize things. I could see them not wanting to give away everything now just because they may figure out down the road there might be a better way of doing this that we can cash in on that we haven't quite figured out yet.
- [60:04]
Chip Mattinger
Right. I think that might very well be the case. Uh huh.
- [60:07]
Podcast Host
Why give it away now?
- [60:08]
Chip Mattinger
Right. Do the next wave would get some more outtakes or some more different overnight mixes. Streaming of the back catalog and material that's not in a physical format. That's could very well be a future option as well since the Beatles have started dropping the physical disc of the surround mixes. So that's unfortunate. And right there, that's a star off for any of the Beatles reissued packages as far as I'm concerned.
- [60:35]
Podcast Host
Say more because I think there's probably a certain number of listeners listening to this that aren't aware of what a Dolby Atmos mix is. A surround sound. How would you describe that? Does it require special equipment to get the full impact?
- [60:49]
Chip Mattinger
It'll require a decoder and then it will require amplification for however many channels you have. And you can keep adding more and more speakers and it's going to still envelop you and the sound. And the more speakers, the more accurate the placement can be. It's really fascinating to hear it. The walls melt away. I would be remiss in not mentioning the Lennon box sets. They are also. Also wonderfully complete. They're terrific examples. I mean there's always something else they could have put on them, but they're, you know, like a Plastic Ono band set. I mean off the walls, man, that one's great.
- [61:27]
Podcast Host
So you would consider them. As far as Beetle World goes, they're the gold standard so far.
- [61:30]
Chip Mattinger
I would consider that the Lennon packages are better than the Beatles packages.
- [61:36]
Podcast Host
Okay. Now, McCarty had started out back when with the archival series that was very haphazard. It wasn't chronological. Some additions were better than others and then it seemed just to have stopped. What are your thoughts on that?
- [61:52]
Chip Mattinger
I wish they'd finish at least the 70 walk through flowers in the Dirt, which of course is already out. But to fill the gaps that are still missing there, some of those packages, all the materials in them is breathtaking. Like Wings Over America. America. But as you mentioned, some of the early ones, it was kind of haphazard. You know, the first ones were McCartney and Band on the Run, and they're maybe a half inch thick. And the Wings Over America is probably three inches thick.
- [62:20]
Podcast Host
Yeah. For anybody keeping score, it's London Town and Back to the Egg that are the big conspicuous holes right now.
- [62:27]
Chip Mattinger
Right. I was hoping that we would have seen those this Christmas, but I don't know anything about any work on.
- [62:34]
Podcast Host
I guess the good news is it's not like they've stopped giving us stuff at all. Now we've got the new project, the Stand on the Run thing, and whatever comes with that. We've already seen what this new, revised, revamped double disc Wings overview looks like, as contrasted with 1978's Wings Greatest and Wingspan. It's still not complete. It seems weird to be doing a history of the band and leave out the first two singles. It is sort of going for this greatest hits mentality, I guess.
- [63:05]
Chip Mattinger
Well, I. I also think some people would argue that Another Day and Uncle Albert are not Wings tracks. Correct. And I kind of have to agree with them, and I think they drew that line in the sand, that it needs to be a Wings frack to appear on this collection because otherwise it would completely encompass Wings Greatest. So between that and the pure McCartney silver set, I'd rather see the archive collections.
- [63:30]
Podcast Host
Oh, for sure.
- [63:31]
Doug Salby
But just.
- [63:31]
Podcast Host
It seems odd to me that Give Ireland Back to the Irish and Mary Had A Little Lamb if. Unless they're the elephant in the room that he'd rather keep buried a la the New York City set. The song that will not be spoken out Loud, it's like.
- [63:44]
Doug Salby
Is that the equation?
- [63:46]
Podcast Host
It's like we can't touch those. It hasn't aged.
- [63:48]
Chip Mattinger
When you said the first two singles. So. Yeah, you're right, those are. It's suspicious that they're absolutely.
- [63:54]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [63:55]
Chip Mattinger
You know, they're either being held out for something else, they're holding out for political correctness. But isn't high, high, high on that? I mean, I've got mine here somewhere. Yes.
- [64:04]
Podcast Host
Yeah, thought.
- [64:05]
Doug Salby
Because at least that was a concert.
- [64:07]
Podcast Host
Staple for years and years. And it's. It's kind of hard to deny the existence of that one, but it just is odd. It makes you wonder who's calling the shots and what the criteria is.
- [64:16]
Chip Mattinger
I think they've already announced all of the Black Friday day releases, but I could see those as maybe being some sort of record store day release in the future.
- [64:28]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [64:28]
Chip Mattinger
Because we have good digital versions of them. And it also could be a case of the tapes weren't up to being. Having the Atmos done on them. Because there is a kind of a. You know, there's fake stereo and Duophonic for back in the Beatle years. Well, now we have fake Atmos for the solo years. Several of the Harrison titles were just processed in that way. As opposed to going back to the original multis and saying, okay, that goes there, that goes there, that goes there. You know, you've got this infinite number of places where you can put things. And it's really obvious if there weren't more than two channels to work with.
- [65:05]
Podcast Host
Sure. I guess to be an optimist, it gives them a place to go down the road. Once they suss out what's the best way to present this to stuff. They haven't given it all away yet. And maybe if you want to give them credit for thinking strategically, maybe that's in the back of their heads. But on the evidence, I don't know. That's the case.
- [65:23]
Chip Mattinger
One thing that's nice about Paul is every now and then he will drop an album's worth of Atmos mixes on Apple Music or the other streaming platforms with not necessarily having to have a reason to issue it. They're saying, oh, we should tie this to a project now and not give it away. But it was really kind of exciting to say, oh, what's up here today? What's new? So now we have multiple Atmos mixes for a couple of the albums. And it's really unfortunate that we don't have physical copies. We're really at the mercy of the licensing of the streaming.
- [65:59]
Podcast Host
So as somebody who's experienced these mixes, would you say they're revelatory? What's the attraction to them? For people that are sitting on the fence, that don't know if they want to invest in the. The equipment to own them, it is a big investment.
- [66:13]
Chip Mattinger
But some of these things, like you said, they tell us so much more that we didn't know before. And Dials isn't necessarily as well versed in all of these solo albums as we are. So there might be alternate. A little bit of something that shows up or something that's missing that somebody more familiar with the music could have done some QC on it and said, well, this mix is kind of missing that. And that's really an Integral part of the song. Song, like the. The vibrator that's going through high, high, high.
- [66:44]
Podcast Host
Are you serious?
- [66:46]
Chip Mattinger
You don't hear it anymore? You know that buzzing sound that moves around the speakers? It's been pushed well to the back now.
- [66:53]
Doug Sulpy
Wow.
- [66:54]
Chip Mattinger
But they tell you all sorts of things, you know, Imagine got your headphones on and, yeah, I can hear everything now, but it's spread out, separate. Every place has something. It's got room to breathe. Breathe. And not be walked over by another instrument.
- [67:09]
Podcast Host
That would be a gargantuan task for somebody to be the John Barrett, to go through the vault and listen to all this stuff, take copious notes and think, okay, I need to take note of this. This is an element. This is an artifact that's in here that needs to be highlighted rather than what seems to be the case of people. We just got to get this out. I don't really know the lay of the land all that much, but I'm going to try to make what I've got here sound good.
- [67:34]
Doug Salby
Good.
- [67:35]
Podcast Host
And there's people like you is like, well, actually there's something there that you pushed to the background and maybe you shouldn't have. So that would be a job that I'm sure there's any number of retired people out there that live in this world that would like. Absolutely. Step up for present company.
- [67:50]
Chip Mattinger
I think a lot of these mixes are done already. You know, I think Back to the Egg is done already. I think London Town is done already. Back to the Egg stuff on the new package, which is amazing. In Atmos, it's like I'm waiting for the next song to start and it's not there. So that one will be great to hear when it comes out. I think Arrow Through Me is one of the highlights of the new set, at least from a sound perspective.
- [68:15]
Podcast Host
Oh, that's awesome. So pivoting back to the Beatles and the series that started with Pepper, we've got Revolver and the White Album and Abbey Road, Let It Be. How do you rate it so far? Knowing what, you know, knowing what could have been and seeing what they've given us, what would you rate it? What would you look at it and critique or think? They did a good job.
- [68:35]
Chip Mattinger
They're improving, but I would give them probably a BB plus for one because of the missing physical Blu Ray with the surround mixes on it. That's a deal breaker for a lot of people.
- [68:47]
Podcast Host
Sure.
- [68:47]
Chip Mattinger
I mean, the first one that didn't have that was Revolver. The books are great, the material's great. Rate but you know, to give us a 55 minute disc when there's clearly so much more material that could go on it. I don't understand that reasoning. You know, a lot of these discs are nowhere near capacity.
- [69:07]
Podcast Host
Right. Were there things in the series so far you looked at and thought, well, jeez, why didn't they put this in here? Something fantastic that you know, to exist. That seems to be a conspicuous omission.
- [69:18]
Chip Mattinger
Doug would probably be better are equipped to answer that one. I'm pretty entrenched in the Lenin in the solo years. Okay, so if you want to jump to that, we can, we can go there.
- [69:29]
Doug Salby
Yeah, let's go there.
- [69:30]
Podcast Host
So obviously the one that's been getting a ton of attention, the one that just recently came out, we know about the omission, but what about what they did give us? What do you have to say about that in terms of knowing what you know and what they gave us? Where would you rank that?
- [69:44]
Chip Mattinger
The new package is gorgeous. And I don't know what they've got coming down the road because, you know, one big thing that was missing was any video material. I mean, we've got the soundtrack for the two concerts now. Where's the video to go with them? Well, I think that might be coming next year and there might be more things that are included on that to interlock with the box set. But there's a lot of home material, there's more studio stuff. They've got a template now and it's not a bad one. They'll give them us one alternate mix of each song and one evolution mix of each song, which are the most fascinating to me anyway, get older and our attention spans get shorter. It's.
- [70:23]
Podcast Host
So the elements.
- [70:25]
Chip Mattinger
Yes, the elements. And like I said, that template's a good one. But the discs are still shortish. I mean, I think the home demo disc on the new Lennon box was probably close to capacity. But that would be my biggest gripe is just if you're going to bother putting that many discs in the set, film them up. Anything's going to be more interesting than absent.
- [70:47]
Podcast Host
So was there anything that surprised you?
- [70:49]
Chip Mattinger
Anything that really surprised me in that box? Surprised that the emitted material was not Easter egged, that it was in there somewhere. But you know, once somebody found out about that and the wrong blogger got a hold of it, it's the problem they didn't want to have to deal with.
- [71:07]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [71:07]
Chip Mattinger
So. But I got to see. See that those are gonna make their way out someday, right? Somehow.
- [71:13]
Podcast Host
And the pushback has been, well they're already out there for anybody who wants them. But it's not the same thing. It's not the elements, it's not the evolution. It's not the. The remaster remix. It's not all the stuff that we would want to hear for a song like plenty of people still really love.
- [71:27]
Chip Mattinger
And they've stripped the B side as well. I can see why they did that on the concerts because it would have pushed it over time, over the running time, if they were, would have included sisters or sisters. And just the fact that they left those two off speaks to me and that they might not be finished with this era.
- [71:45]
Podcast Host
Yeah, that's a good point. Although this box has been in process for years now. And if this window where the spotlight has been shown on Johnny Nyoko's political era between Daytime Revolution and the one to one film, which I thought was fantastic, no matter what you think of this era, it's a beautifully put together film. If not now, when.
- [72:08]
Chip Mattinger
Which actually premieres on. I think it's HBO today. The one to one film.
- [72:14]
Podcast Host
Exactly right.
- [72:15]
Chip Mattinger
Pick that up.
- [72:16]
Podcast Host
It's like this era that traditionally, historically has not been most people's favorite post Beatle John Lennon era. It certainly the album wasn't back in the day that suddenly it's gotten more attention, it's gotten normalized. People have gotten acclimated to. Oh, looking back now, I could see this was an admirable period for them where they put so much at risk to advocate for these causes that they believed in. Why not put out the full soundtrack as was presented 50 years ago? We've had this argument before. We understand why it's the third rail right now. But this window before people forget and go back to thinking whatever they think about about it, it just seems like the optimum time in some capacity. But I guess this was the wall they were up against and it was not possible this time, which is unfortunate.
- [73:06]
Chip Mattinger
The thing that surprised me most about the New York City set, and I won't give any spoilers, but you know how there's background music playing on the menu until you make your selection. You know, there's. There's something there nowadays. And one of the tapes that they use used as a background is very cool and very surprising and something I'd never heard before. Go and get it, folks.
- [73:31]
Podcast Host
Okay. See if Walmart gives us another Black Friday for this.
- [73:35]
Chip Mattinger
Right, right.
- [73:36]
Podcast Host
For people that missed.
- [73:37]
Chip Mattinger
A lot of people got lucky on that one.
- [73:39]
Podcast Host
That was the weirdest thing I've seen where some people pre ordered it. The Cheap price and got it.
- [73:44]
Chip Mattinger
People that pre ordered it didn't get it. Walmart sent him out a copy for free. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So. So go figure. And that kind of takes the sting out of it being such a challenging listening spot.
- [73:59]
Podcast Host
Sure.
- [73:59]
Chip Mattinger
And getting it for that price. It would have Great. But.
- [74:03]
Podcast Host
Right. Spread some goodwill around.
- [74:05]
Chip Mattinger
Yeah. Yeah. But I've. I've got great hopes for the last three. There's a ton of material that could be mined from for those.
- [74:16]
Podcast Host
Now we say last three. Walls and Bridges, Rock and Roll, Double Fantasy and Double Fantasy. You see, as Milk and Honey folded into it. It's a single work, certainly.
- [74:26]
Chip Mattinger
Yes.
- [74:27]
Podcast Host
Okay.
- [74:27]
Chip Mattinger
And anything that was started during the Double Fantasy sessions. So half of Yoko stuff on Milk and Honey was 81 82. So there are just so many things just for one. The running tape are fascinating. I can't see anybody going through and. And editing those judiciously so they flowed. But perhaps that's a download type thing that teaches us so much about the music being there while it's actually being polished off and recorded is just fascinating.
- [74:58]
Podcast Host
What you're suggesting.
- [74:59]
Doug Salby
Right.
- [74:59]
Podcast Host
There is a great idea for a Fly on the Wall disc. They could put the raw audio out as a streaming thing, but then collate a disc worth of highlights and that'd be fantastic.
- [75:10]
Chip Mattinger
Right. You know, because the whole Double Fantasy project went through the tracking, the overdubbing, the vocals and the mixing. And everything was done in those mentalized areas, we'll say. So there's something interesting out of every one of those pieces.
- [75:26]
Podcast Host
Sure. So your thoughts on Anthology 4. Obviously it's not happened yet. Although there was a leak and I presume that you managed to nab that while it was there. What are your initial thoughts on what they're giving us?
- [75:40]
Chip Mattinger
There's some very cool things there. Some very cool things and. But there's only, what, 33 minutes of new material across the discs.
- [75:48]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [75:48]
Chip Mattinger
That doesn't quite seem right. And the fact that they are repackaging all of these tracks from the SDE Super Deluxe Editions. Why. Why didn't you give us a different mix than what you'd given us already? The Anthology project is, I think, about us hearing things that we haven't heard before. I don't know if they're maybe trying to make it so that people that don't have the SDEs chase them down because they want to hear more of what was on this box. But I'm not in. I'm not in the marketing meetings and I don't know what they're thinking. But Apple's got some new person at the helm, so it'll be interesting to see what he brings along. I mean, Jeff Jones did a great job in getting a lot of these things out.
- [76:31]
Podcast Host
Do you think that blowback online, when it was announced initially that you'd have to buy the package of the first three to get four, and then suddenly you didn't have to. Do you think that was a strategy all along or you think they were really paying attention to reaction?
- [76:45]
Chip Mattinger
I think there was some reaction to it because that's the first thing people were saying is why have I got to buy the other three volumes just to get the two new discs.
- [76:55]
Doug Salby
Yeah.
- [76:56]
Chip Mattinger
So, you know, advantage the amount of.
- [76:57]
Podcast Host
Responsiveness to consumer demand that they haven't traditionally shown.
- [77:01]
Chip Mattinger
Shown. And the thing that would go against that would be that they had the fourth disc ready so quickly. I don't know if it has slightly different artwork than the version that's in the box, but to have the 4 available separately and the volume 4 vinyl available separately for the people that bought the 325 years ago, or what are we at now? 30 years. 30 years ago. But I think there was some reaction to it because it came about. About rather quickly, didn't it?
- [77:30]
Podcast Host
It did. It seemed like, yeah, you know, maybe.
- [77:32]
Chip Mattinger
Within two weeks or so.
- [77:34]
Podcast Host
Yes. One of the things that popped in my head, and I'm not a streamer, so I don't really know, but I was wondering about the fate of the bonus tracks on the singles, the CD singles, Back For Real Love and Free As a Bird. Has that material been presented or captured anywhere? Or is it just kind of out in the wild right now?
- [77:54]
Chip Mattinger
Those are still out in the wild. Those other tracks, somebody may very well know. Oh, maybe one of them is available, but as far as I can recall, those are not picked up anywhere.
- [78:04]
Podcast Host
Yeah. Okay. So there's plenty of room. As I talked about with Doug and talked about with all kinds of people, people that are steeped in this world are well aware of tons of material just waiting to be put out through official channels, cleaned up. That would have made sense for. If you're going to do a fourth volume of anthology, start with the demos. There's a ton of demos. Bad to me and all that other stuff that was crafted for other artists. World without love and misery Misery yes, yes, yes.
- [78:58]
Chip Mattinger
Hearing some of these things, they're very revealing because there's so many elements that don't reflect what was on the final record.
- [79:06]
Podcast Host
Right. The initial way these things were conceived before they went right Direction, so. And, you know, they've given us that in other anthologies, like the Initial Takes, the Band, I Love Her, Without a Bridge and no Reply, things like that. It's absolutely valid just to shine light on the history of these songs that we love so much. So if it were you in charge, working for the new guy at Apple, Tom Green, I guess his name is.
- [79:29]
Chip Mattinger
I think that's correct, yeah.
- [79:31]
Doug Salby
Because I remember the first thing I.
- [79:32]
Podcast Host
Thought of was Freddie Got Fingered.
- [79:33]
Chip Mattinger
Right, Right.
- [79:36]
Podcast Host
If you were given the blank check, what would you see as being the best and most effective, efficient way to, A, A, make the most of the material, and B, perhaps correct. What's been given us so far? If there's anything particularly egregious that you.
- [79:52]
Doug Salby
Think, well, the first thing I would.
- [79:53]
Podcast Host
Do if I had my hands on this is I would fix this. What are your thoughts on that?
- [79:57]
Chip Mattinger
I think first disc, mono album and singles that were done within the same era, you know, same recording sessions, stereo on the next disc again with the attendant singles. Maybe a disc disc of demos, fuller discs of the studio stuff, you know, jumping back into the solo years. We had the 1998 linen anthology box, which I think is one of my favorite box sets ever. And what was really cool about that one was when they assembled it, they shot holes around all the bootlegs that we already had. I don't know that there was much of anything. There might have been a couple. I think maybe the Free the People demo or. Or something. We didn't have any of that before, and now we're finding out through his deluxe editions that it was chopped up quite a bit for ease of listening. But, I mean, that's part of the recording process.
- [80:51]
Podcast Host
So you think they're being responsive to knowing what was out there in the wild and purposely giving us what we didn't have?
- [80:58]
Chip Mattinger
Yes. With that Lennon set, definitely for the new sets. It's just there's so much more available. Well, I'll be real interested to see how the video element turns out on this with the Disney broadcast, if they've gone back and picked it, you know, found better sources for things. That's a crazy project, gargantuan project. But there are a lot of people that would be very pleased to see all of these improvements that have come out in the past 30 years.
- [81:26]
Podcast Host
Right, right. And presumably a segment of the viewing public never saw it back in the day, 30 years ago. So this could be their introduction production.
- [81:33]
Chip Mattinger
Right.
- [81:34]
Podcast Host
Good on them for that.
- [81:35]
Chip Mattinger
But they don't have the new Beatles song banner to promote These with.
- [81:41]
Podcast Host
Right. That is true. So, yeah, now you guys, you and Mark Easter were The guys that 25 years ago released eight arms to hold you, which was this magnificent, unbelievably deeply researched compendium and reference manual of every extent piece of audio out there, live studio demos, anything you can conceive of, and video as well. And you've got it out again now reissued as a PDF for anybody who wants it fully searchable. You've got it on sale currently and we'll give the information on that. So is there anything that has come out so far, knowing what you know, that could have been better, based on what you guys put into your book, that maybe it's edited, maybe it's not optimal quality? Are you pretty satisfied with what you guys described in your book that has sid surface that wasn't available when the book came out?
- [82:40]
Chip Mattinger
Well, when we did the remastered version, the electronic version, we picked up errors. We took about 30,000 words out and put 30,000 new words back in to correct things. There's a lot more solo session data in there as opposed to the original version, which, you know, we were working without any participation from any of the labels or any of the estates. So there's a lot of information that's come out in these deluxe editions that, yeah, they might have sharpened this book up a little bit, but still, it's a book that was written because it's one that I wanted to read but didn't have have. I want to put it down because your memory is going to start to slip and here you've got it all preserved nicely. There's currently a great battle on truth going on nowadays and it's nice to have these in a physical format or even a PDF format. So this is a true historical document. This is what we knew at the time. And it's not something that's a web page that's constantly getting modified and are dropping off. And I'm very proud of it and can't believe how old it is?
- [83:52]
Podcast Host
Yeah, well, it's been a go to for me for years and years and informed the books that I've written were anything I needed to know about anything solo, I could just track it down and find what the story was to it. So it's an essential canon in the Beatle literary library that anybody at all interested in. Solo years. Absolutely. It's indispensable in your dream world. Now, having cataloged all this stuff 25 years ago and revisited it to do the remix, what do you see as obvious omission in terms of things that have been reissued that really need to come out as some kind of archival release that they haven't touched yet. Maybe you want to go through each individual Beatle.
- [84:33]
Chip Mattinger
All right, well, we can start with George. It'd be nice to see a similar package to John and Yoko's New York City for the Concert for Bangladesh that we get both shows, maybe a film composite of one, because I think there were some filming issues. But that would be a neat release from George.
- [84:53]
Podcast Host
When they did the remaster back when, what was it, 2005 or so, suddenly we were seeing things we'd never seen before, like the Robert Johnson song and Deep Blue. And that was amazing. It just begs the question, what else are they sitting on?
- [85:07]
Chip Mattinger
Exactly. So there's that. The biggest omission in the George back catalog, I feel, is the absence of a 1974 set, the Dark Horse Tour. Right. Three shows were professionally recorded and filmed. We've seen some of it on that Ravi Shankar piece that's been issued, and it just looks fantastic.
- [85:28]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [85:29]
Chip Mattinger
So I'm hoping that's really in the works.
- [85:31]
Podcast Host
I had hoped that with the Scorsese doc that them opening up the vaults and giving us a taste of it would lead to other things. It did lead to Early Takes, Volume one, but nothing since. And I don't know if the strategy's been, well, maybe we need to just issue that stuff as bonus tracks on the subsequent individual album reissues. But I don't think that's satisfying enough. It's like, why throw that teaser out there? That was a pretty nice selection of material from different phases of his career. We know that George was sitting on a mountain of material. He made the remark, I hope somebody.
- [86:03]
Chip Mattinger
Does this to all my crap demos when I'm dead. Make them into.
- [86:06]
Doug Salby
Into hit songs, anything in that direction.
- [86:09]
Podcast Host
I don't envy Danny and Olivia and whoever else would be tasked with that gargantuan task, but it's something. If not now, when are you going to get started on? Because you're running out of first gen fans. They're not making new ones these days, so it'd be nice to enjoy that stuff while we can.
- [86:27]
Chip Mattinger
Ken Scott's made a good initial pass through George's archives in organizing them, and the crew that they've got putting the package together now are doing a fantastic job. But George's reissues suffer from lots of extra space and only one 3 minute bonus track. I would make this akin to maybe the first pass through the Lennon catalog when they did the Imagine documentary in 88, there were a few things in there that we hadn't seen before and things look perfect.
- [87:00]
Doug Sulpy
Great.
- [87:01]
Chip Mattinger
As we became more and more aware, more and more material came out. Perhaps the Scorsese doc is kind of the same thing. It was the first pass at going through the archives and reissuing things. And as they discover more and more, hopefully they'll share it with us.
- [87:17]
Podcast Host
Yeah, absolutely. While there's still people around.
- [87:19]
Chip Mattinger
Remember George Harrison, Right.
- [87:21]
Podcast Host
So Paul, Ringo, John, Paul.
- [87:24]
Chip Mattinger
I think a cold cuts album just to kind of to close the chapter on that would be nice to have. He's often said that he hasn't reissued it because it's been so widely bootlegged. What's the point? But I think it would still be a neat way to finish off that era, is to pull those all together. His packages are wonderful, but they still come down to the one version of each song as bonus material. There's more there. We all know know it, but they're in this template now where we're going to give you one demo or one alternate version free song and that's all we're going to do. So I don't know if there's some future marketing tied into that. That. Yeah, we don't want to give it all away now, which is quite understandable. But like you said that we're losing our first generation fan base. How much longer are you going to hold on to that?
- [88:15]
Podcast Host
They have to be aware of the Dylan bootleg series and other peer artists that are doing this stuff and making it work. I don't want to be cynical and think, well, they're just going to lower the bar, lowest common denominator and see how many nickels they could squeeze out of the consumer. And if they think if they go deep, it's going to turn some people off. Well, in my way of thinking, you can have both. You could have a condensation for the mainstream. You could make the expanded versions available for the hardcores. You're never going to find a wider audience for hardcore of any artist than Beatle fans. It's my way of thinking, but it doesn't seem like they've come around that way of thinking yet.
- [88:55]
Chip Mattinger
I mentioned Toll and Crimson earlier. The Dylan packages are pretty amazing as well. I'm not as well versed in Bob, but I know that there are way too many albums to do a box for each one of them. Yeah, but to bundle all of that, all every 1965 take into one pack package, I mean, it might get old listening to it initially. But that could answer about any question you had on how that song developed in the studio. Because you have everything to listen to. Right?
- [89:23]
Podcast Host
Right. And I always have the back of my mind, the fear that unless this stuff is copied and safeguarded somewhere, you know, we're just one universal fire away from losing all this history.
- [89:35]
Chip Mattinger
Right. I think they have seen that and have adjusted to it. It. I think it's probably well preserved in multiple spots.
- [89:43]
Doug Salby
Yeah.
- [89:44]
Podcast Host
Thank God the Beatles did their work in England and kept it there.
- [89:47]
Chip Mattinger
Yeah.
- [89:47]
Podcast Host
Ringo, besides the fact that he hasn't done any SD and if ED1 was crying from one, it was a 73 Ringo album where you've got video, you've got all kinds of alternate takes. And apparently he has no interest in doing that. Maybe he will change his mind at some point. But one of the things that we've talked about is the 78 special bad boy. There's a concert sequence at the end and I don't know if there's more to it than what we saw on the TV show or not, but that would be a really cool thing because I remember even as a kid watching that thinking, wow, I really like these live versions better than the record.
- [90:32]
Guest Performer
But when she loves me, she loves.
- [90:33]
Doug Sulpy
Me.
- [90:36]
Guest Performer
She gives me hard time but.
- [90:39]
Doug Sulpy
When she loves me, she loves me.
- [90:51]
Chip Mattinger
That's a great question and I wish I knew the answer. But I would not be surprised if there were more songs that were attempted that just weren't made a part of the TV special.
- [91:02]
Podcast Host
Yeah, I haven't looked at it lately and I'm not 100 sure if it's live live or if it was them miming and dubbing in the audience sounds. I really don't remember. But it's cool video at least. And if there's more to it than we saw, you know, why not? I know there's a YouTube video of outtakes from the Agnoret special. So apparently stuff is around.
- [91:21]
Chip Mattinger
There's a lot of stuff. There are a couple hours of really miserable looking stuff and then. And you know, some of it is showing up in much improved quality on YouTube or some other outlets. It would be neat to see the whole special. And some of the outtakes are great because we see Gringo's sense of humor is very akin to Nelson's and Keith Moon at that period.
- [91:42]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [91:43]
Chip Mattinger
And hoping that Martine puts out, you know, just silly asides like that just are endearing. But we don't need any more All Star Band live writers. I think we don't need water filled versions of all of your albums on colored vinyl. It'd be nice to have the quad mixes out, you know, the Good Night Vienna. Yeah, it'd be great to see that. He sued to keep it from being released, but there's the Memphis album he did in 1987. Some of that had come out on boot, but there's definitely more material there, more songs.
- [92:17]
Podcast Host
And there's a mountain of video from that as well.
- [92:19]
Chip Mattinger
Right.
- [92:19]
Podcast Host
They recorded the sessions?
- [92:20]
Chip Mattinger
I think so, yeah.
- [92:21]
Podcast Host
It left a bad taste in his mouth. He really tried to dial that back. But again, I speak from a perspective of historian that wants everything. If it's preserved, it should be made available and it just fills in the record further. You know, no judgment at this. If you're interested enough in Ringo, you're not going to look at him at his worst and think, oh, this changes everything. It's like you already know the story story. You just want the details.
- [92:46]
Chip Mattinger
So we haven't seen much from Maringo in the surround world, except on all of these new eps. There are surround mixes for those on the streaming services. Anything else from him? It would be neat to see a disc of songs that were given to him by other artists or had other artists, more specifically John singing along, giving the guide vocal. It would be neat to hear both vocals at the same time. Perhaps, you know, Ringo on one side, John on the other, but that might be a train wreck. It sounds good in theory, but it might sound like so.
- [93:26]
Podcast Host
Well, people have done that with only you. So there's that model.
- [93:29]
Chip Mattinger
Right.
- [93:30]
Podcast Host
If there's a good night piano track they could do that with. Who knows? I'm the greatest.
- [93:34]
Chip Mattinger
Is that cooking?
- [93:36]
Podcast Host
Yeah, right, right.
- [93:37]
Chip Mattinger
It was neat to see, I have to be honest, I haven't gone through and stacked up all of the. The greatest material we had before with the stuff that came out on the Mind Game set. But there was definitely a lot of new Ringo material on that. Or from the I'm the Greatest session.
- [93:52]
Doug Salby
Yeah.
- [93:53]
Chip Mattinger
Huh? Yeah.
- [93:54]
Podcast Host
Lots of tape roll and it'd be nice to get that wrapped up in a nice package.
- [93:58]
Chip Mattinger
It's for John. They're on a great trek, you know, if they keep going and they finish this one off. They started the one in 2000 where we got the remix version of the album with a few bonus tracks on them, and those are going to be in demand here shortly, because those mixes aren't anyplace else.
- [94:15]
Podcast Host
Right, right. I remember specifically the first time I heard that remix of Mind Games. It's like, oh, my God, there's an organ on this track.
- [94:23]
Chip Mattinger
Right, right.
- [94:25]
Podcast Host
All these elements. You had no idea. And that was probably the one album out of most of his catalog that suffered from a rushed mix that. That really didn't do the album justice till you heard somebody do it properly take their time. So that was definitely an improvement.
- [94:39]
Chip Mattinger
I found rock and roll to be in that thing. The rock and roll stuff was somebody with a sympathetic ear that restores some of the high end and a little bit of the sound stage. That. That'd be great. Really looking forward to that one.
- [94:53]
Podcast Host
I don't hold on hope that there is a way of despectorizing that. Because my understanding is every take was you already had 40 musicians there. So it's not like you can do a stripped John Lennon rock and roll. His voice, guitar based drums like. Like you would have done the stuff at the Cavern. In my head I'm thinking oh that would be amazing. Almost borderline punk. But I don't think.
- [95:15]
Chip Mattinger
Yeah, yeah.
- [95:16]
Podcast Host
You could separate all that stuff out unless you did Peter Jackson Mal thing.
- [95:20]
Chip Mattinger
The majority of the rock and roll tracks had new lead vocals put on on them from the Spectre sessions.
- [95:26]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [95:29]
Chip Mattinger
Right. There are also a pair of outtakes from the rock and roll session that I don't know that John was on them. But they were recorded under his umbrella and I'm sure Capital paid for it. First was a level like yours, Don't Come Knocking Every Day which actually has been released but with a lead vocal duet by Harry Nielsen and Cher. Wow. Are on the Lennon Band track. Their vocals are on the Lennon Band. The other song was Born to Be with you. Which was released on Dion's 1976 album I think. So that's got the Lennon backing track but with Dion's vocal on. So. So those are both out there but you know, hiding in plain sight. But it would definitely be neat to hear if they had a John Guide vocal.
- [96:15]
Podcast Host
Oh, that would be amazing.
- [96:16]
Chip Mattinger
Wow.
- [96:17]
Podcast Host
They've not officially put out the alternate of just because it's been widely bootlegged. Have though.
- [96:23]
Chip Mattinger
No. And I think that's for obvious reasons.
- [96:26]
Podcast Host
Okay.
- [96:27]
Chip Mattinger
You know, nobody wants to hear a friend. It's that messed up. So. Yeah, I could see why that one. It's made the rounds enough. Everybody's heard it.
- [96:36]
Podcast Host
It's this carnival of light. You want to hear it once.
- [96:40]
Chip Mattinger
Right. And Spectre had those cut to acetate and distribute. Oh, those two songs. So that. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. With friends like Show Bill. Huh. Now I'd love to hear more of the interaction between Phil and John that we got the sample of on the Lennon box. Oh yes, the anthology. Those were one of the highlights of the set.
- [97:02]
Podcast Host
Yeah. I wonder if that stuff, if any of that from the rock and roll sessions especially, that exists on tape.
- [97:08]
Chip Mattinger
Yeah. It's just a matter I think of somebody going through them all and editing them out. But the one thing that hasn't been really well represented presented by John so far are the home recordings. I think a really neat release could be very well be a part of the Double Fantasy set. Would be a release of his demos from Bermuda. He did all his demos and then he bounced them all down to another cassette. And that's what he gave Jack Douglas. It would be very cool to see that.
- [97:38]
Podcast Host
That's an obvious sort of self contained, like an Easter demos for him. That's.
- [97:42]
Chip Mattinger
It's exactly.
- [97:43]
Podcast Host
That'd be good. I have seen obviously the things that have leaked out that have not been officially sanctioned. But you can compile something from 75 to 80 of the stuff that didn't make it to any of the official releases. Stuff that he was working on or these embryonic versions of things of. During the time when the guitar never left the wall. Apparently he meant that guitar and.
- [98:06]
Chip Mattinger
Right.
- [98:07]
Podcast Host
Yeah. It would be a. Well, whole delineated package of what he was doing. You know, like hearing in context the early workings of Free as a Bird. A Real Love.
- [98:19]
Chip Mattinger
Now and then we get very tired of hearing Real Love with all of the cassettes filled with that in his.
- [98:24]
Podcast Host
Oh yeah, there's 5000 takes of that. But I'm sure there's got to be one that's not widely circulated. That's right.
- [98:30]
Chip Mattinger
This is worth a listen. Right? Yeah. That's a very bright version or right amount of material to be addressed. Sure. That was a wonderful metaphor, wasn't it.
- [98:43]
Podcast Host
Paul? One of the things we've talked about is there is that session in 72 where he's being filmed, Wings with Henry Aboard. That they do Give Ireland Back to the Irish Lucille. I wonder how much. I mean you'd know better than me how much there is of that. Don't they do some wildlife track next?
- [99:02]
Chip Mattinger
Yeah, I think there's a little over an hour of that video. Most of it black and white rushes, some of it in color. That would be a very neat release. Another one for Paul would be the. The songs from the 1987 Koba sessions that didn't make it out on the Russian album. You know, there's another whole days worth of fracts right there.
- [99:27]
Podcast Host
That would be amazing.
- [99:28]
Chip Mattinger
Yeah, I Mean, we've got the. The sampler which has what, 30 seconds of every song they did. Boy, put this out, please.
- [99:35]
Podcast Host
Right, right. And there's tons of live stuff. He's professionally recorded. I don't know if we need a post 2000, but some of those early gigs would be interesting. The Australian show in 75, that's a nice set. It's an interesting snapshot. I think they did Junior's Farm on that tour, didn't they? Yes, and that's a rare one for him to be doing live. We've got all the sea moon we need.
- [100:02]
Chip Mattinger
Right. That might be a thing that everybody has seen, the Australian show, but nonetheless, I would love to see a better copy of it.
- [100:11]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [100:11]
Chip Mattinger
Because it's pretty much an untouched concert. Whereas Wings Over America, Wings over the World, picked from however many live shows there were, were, you know, they extracted the best versions. Every show, every song was recorded on Wings Over America. So it's this great compilation. But the Australian show, yeah, it's just a set beginning to end. And that's something that we haven't seen from him, I don't think. No, it's an untouched live performance like that.
- [100:43]
Podcast Host
There were shows, I believe you could speak this better than I in 72, that, like the Hague, that was professionally recorded, at least. Was it filmed as well?
- [100:53]
Chip Mattinger
There were four shows professionally recorded. As far as the film footage. I know they did maybe three days of close ups after the fact. This was all part of the Bruce McMaus thing. Right, right, right. All right. So they had three days worth of lip syncing to that. But if we could see the 72 or sort of the Australian show in the same sort of qualities, that Wings footage, I don't think anybody would shun a copy of it because they already have it on bootleg. So we might be getting to incremental improvements, but still, you know, there's a whole new round of fans every time, it would seem, and it's going to.
- [101:33]
Podcast Host
Be of interest to somebody. And if you've got the stuff, why.
- [101:36]
Doug Salby
Not make it available?
- [101:37]
Podcast Host
Even if it's a streaming thing, just to preserve it, distribute it, and it's never ever going to be a multi million seller killer. But why not give us this part of your history? That's not anything that reflects badly on you, it's a part of the story.
- [101:52]
Chip Mattinger
Right, there's the 79 show that we all have now from Glasgow, we have that fantastic soundboard that's out. That was Jeff Emmerich's mix of it, Cloud.
- [102:36]
Doug Sulpy
In the.
- [103:02]
Chip Mattinger
That would be neat. There's the Campechea show.
- [103:05]
Podcast Host
Oh yes.
- [103:06]
Chip Mattinger
Might be just tied up in so many legal knots that there's no way we'll ever see that officially. I think there was a copy of that album in just about every cutout bin in America. So it's out there.
- [103:19]
Podcast Host
Yeah. And not through any lack of quality. To me, it's odd when Bangladesh sort of set the template for these high profile, multi rock star gigs that you then do a record and a film of because. Because you're raising money for charity. The Campuchea one just kind of came and went. When one to one happened again, a charitable event. It seems like the ticket sales for those days were as far as their charity went because there wasn't an accompanying album or film at the time. That would have been the way to leverage this asset that you've created. So I doubt that the people of Campuchea run out of needs. And I don't think it's like, well, we're good now.
- [103:58]
Chip Mattinger
Exactly.
- [103:59]
Podcast Host
We don't need your chair parody. So. Yeah. But the history alone, all the. All the acts that. That might be the only footage, professionally shot footage you've got of them in their prime.
- [104:10]
Chip Mattinger
Right.
- [104:11]
Podcast Host
Thing they have, you know, Queen, for God's sake. The who and the Clash. Stello Genders.
- [104:17]
Chip Mattinger
Queen Rocks, Montreal Blu Ray reissue. It just came out. It's just stunning. I mean it's color, 35 millimeter. Just looks fantastic. It looks like the Wings Over America stuff.
- [104:29]
Doug Sulpy
Oh, wow.
- [104:30]
Chip Mattinger
So. But yeah, the who just had the who are you package come out. I don't think there's any video element to that. But there is live stuff.
- [104:40]
Podcast Host
Yeah, I was curious about that because I know they put the shepherd and Film Studio rehearsals in there. More outtakes than we had. Like Barbaran and I saw her standing there.
- [104:49]
Chip Mattinger
Right.
- [104:50]
Podcast Host
But we know those were filmed and it would be nice to get those in pristine condition. But my understanding is that stuff wasn't curated very well. A lot of it was allowed to degrade. So I don't know what condition it's in or if they put the time and effort into cleaning it.
- [105:03]
Chip Mattinger
One thing we don't have from Paul are really any outtakes from Broad Street.
- [105:09]
Podcast Host
And you know that'll change your perception of everything.
- [105:11]
Chip Mattinger
Right. But all of those songs were filmed a live performance. The live performance married to the film was what happened. And he was very intent on doing that. And I'm sure there's get back session type stuff where they're playing stuff between takes or load and Fill film. That would be great to see.
- [105:31]
Podcast Host
That would be something to redeem. It's a good name to anybody to do with it. It's like, well here's just the music. Let's focus on that. You can't downgrade them for that.
- [105:39]
Chip Mattinger
And speaking of the music, five dollar DD that. That was out there for the longest time. It's got all of it in five one.
- [105:46]
Doug Salby
Really?
- [105:47]
Chip Mattinger
Yeah. So I mean here we have a surround version of the Broad street album. Hiding in plain sight, huh?
- [105:55]
Podcast Host
Yeah. It's something I get to where because John and Paul especially were so reactive to criticism and it's like they would consider anything they did if it got bad reviews. Well, that's a failure. I don't want to address that again. But the one thing I've been waiting for forever from Paul is some kind of comprehensive reissue of the Fireman.
- [106:16]
Chip Mattinger
That'd be interesting. Tape box version of. That's very cool. Cool. And I think it's one of the one first ones that started putting the stems from the remixes on it for the collector to do with it as they like. It would be nice to see some of the Fireman stuff from the first album in its original form or some of the phone calls from the rushes album. Some of those individual elements. Cool. I don't know that there's a solid version of the secret website show out there because that was in the very early days of streaming. It would keep locking up and the like. And I've never gone and tried to gather. Just because there are better things to do.
- [106:59]
Doug Sulpy
Right.
- [106:59]
Chip Mattinger
I suppose.
- [107:01]
Podcast Host
I think about that stuff. I think, well, if you want to like enhance your hypnosis cred, that fireman stuff, I think for a lot of contemporary young listeners that would be one way to approach it for sure.
- [107:12]
Chip Mattinger
Sure. Yeah. Hopefully this stuff is still popular in the future. That it just doesn't disappear. That the. The fan base continues, but albeit smaller, I'm sure. But you know, it'd be a shame to see any of this stuff be lost. And I think of what's out there now has been so widely distributed that it is safely backed up amongst the collecting.
- [107:35]
Podcast Host
But once we get past the saturation point of the familiar, the unfamiliar is going to start looking awfully attractive.
- [107:41]
Chip Mattinger
Yeah. Yeah. You think back 30 years ago you never could have imagined that we'd be seeing some of this stuff in the future.
- [107:48]
Podcast Host
Oh, absolutely. So currently it is 10 years of Leninology, 25 of 8 arbs to hold you.
- [107:56]
Chip Mattinger
That's right.
- [107:56]
Podcast Host
And you're commemorating it?
- [107:58]
Chip Mattinger
Yes.
- [107:58]
Podcast Host
With PDF versions softbound of Leninology. If we haven't talked about Leninology to this point, again, it is a holy Bible resource that is like the most top notch research into John and Yoko through 1980. Starting what, 66.
- [108:19]
Chip Mattinger
Right. With their meeting in 66.
- [108:21]
Podcast Host
And if you're thinking, oh, I'm not really that interested in Yoko, you guys have set the record straight on so many things. We thought we knew and believed. Believed. Until you found the receipts and like, no, this is actually the way it happened. Folks. Pay no attention to what John said in that interview. So it's invaluable. It's absolutely invaluable. And I understand all the effort and years of work that went into that to create what you did, what was proposed as a four volume series and then possibly a two volume series as you are sort of rethinking your approach. But in any event, you don't need anything beyond volume one because there isn't anything beyond volume one.
- [108:59]
Chip Mattinger
Right.
- [108:59]
Podcast Host
Right now volume one is perfectly satisfying. So don't think, oh, I don't want to get this one out because I'm going to wait for number two to drop.
- [109:05]
Chip Mattinger
Right, yeah, yeah. I think there's a competition between Mark Lewison and I to see who can delay the release of volume two the longest.
- [109:13]
Podcast Host
Right, right. But the current deal is you go to the litanology.com site.
- [109:20]
Chip Mattinger
Right. And I have that right here somewhere. But you've told us where to go.
- [109:24]
Podcast Host
It's filed away. Yes, yep. So the current deal is what is it for the PDFs and you got soft bounds of Leninology as well.
- [109:32]
Chip Mattinger
Right. It's just the leninology.com is the website and we have. The paperback version is on sale, heavily discounted and then we have, as you mentioned, the two electronic versions of each book, fully searchable, everything's in there for a low, low price of 19.99 each. Each. There you go. So definitely a great value.
- [109:56]
Podcast Host
Yes, absolutely. And like I said, I'm not just blowing smoke with my guests. It's like, no, I relied on these books when I was doing the research for my solo years. Books and pretty much anything I've done, if I have to research a show for a particular guest, these are the go to's for stuff you will not find anywhere else. So thank you for producing them and thank you for making the stuff available more accessibly for people that didn't want to have another cinder block on their shelf. Guess what? Now you can have a PDF and get all the same information.
- [110:27]
Chip Mattinger
Right, right. I found it.
- [110:29]
Podcast Host
Ah, there you go.
- [110:30]
Chip Mattinger
Still spelled the same way.
- [110:32]
Podcast Host
Is that your handwriting?
- [110:34]
Chip Mattinger
Yeah.
- [110:34]
Podcast Host
Ah, my hat's off to you. Mine is atrocious and I'd get no sales out of that because nobody'd be able to read it.
- [110:44]
Guest Performer
Please lock me away and don't allow the day Here inside where I hide with my loneliness.
- [111:10]
Doug Salby
Something about the Beatles Created and hosted by Robert Rodriguez. Exactly. Executive producer Rick Way. Title song performed by the Corgis. Something about the Beatles is an evergreen podcast.
- [112:06]
Audio Description Promoter
What if you love old movies but you're also trying to cut down on your screen time?
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Chip Mattinger
Stop this progress before it is too late.
- [112:14]
Audio Description Promoter
People with blindness or low vision can enjoy films with something called Audio Description, which turns this it's amazing. Into this.
- [112:23]
Chip Mattinger
It's amazing.
- [112:24]
Audio Description Promoter
With a flurry of punches, Joe drives Gilbert across the rain. Check out Movies for the Blind, a weekly podcast of classic and cult films with no screen required. Subscribe now. Where you get your podcasts.