Oliver Murray (5:54)

Free like a little boy.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (6:00)

He brought up now and then being the first film you did. And this is before I even thought about writers or directors or any of that stuff. I, like many a fan, just consumed it on the eve of the release of the New Beetle track, the long lost Beetle Track and Peter Jackson's involvement and all that stuff. And the way I remember the timeline was we got the song released on radio and then your video came out. The 12 minute video. That's how we refer to it on the show, the 12 minute video. Because everybody knows what we're talking about then. And then the Peter Jackson video, that was the progression. And I remember speaking as fan hearing it and being familiar with the Lennon demo, thinking, okay, this is nice, I'm glad it's not disappointing. Then the 12 minute video comes. And that's the thing that as a short piece of filmmaking, I think if there was anybody not sure about this whole idea of a new Beatles song for so long, it really sold them because it was so pitch perfect in laying out the timeline and the whole yellow submarine style scrolling through the years, but that you had to have realized when you were putting this thing together. You've got that show stopping moment where you hear John Lennon's isolated mal voice for the first time of that lousy cassette tape.

Oliver Murray (7:17)

I know it's true.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (7:22)

It's all because of you. Speaking on behalf of all the fans I've had on the show and have given their feedback to me, it was just heart stopping in the best possible way. It was an amazing, magical Beatle moment.

Oliver Murray (7:38)

Amazing. Well, honestly, that was my North Star. I was always looking to replicate how I felt. I mean the hands down, the best part of my job is some of the stuff that I've been sent to make these shows with. I mean I've heard some amazing, amazing things, but to get those stems through for the first time and listen to it, I mean, it just brought tears to my eyes and I just thought I have to hang on and I want to give people an experience of what I've had. That was my first thing to also to be able to tell a story in the run up to that. So that we're also sort of reaching a handout to new fans. And I think this is the big push pull of making any, anything telling any story about the Beatles or with the Beatles when we're interviewing them and things like that. On the one hand, I'm always very aware that there are people that know way more than I do and want to know even more. But Then there's also people. One of the jobs I want to try and do is bring people in, bring new people in to the fandom. And a big mistake is to try and serve both all the time because you land in the middle and do neither. So always trying to kind of service both sides, which involves a bit of plate spinning. And that I think is the hardest thing to tackle I found with it. Although the way I've also tried not to get into my own head about it is just to think, well, I'm a fan, I'm not a super fan, but I'm certainly a fan who loves curating all of this stuff and putting it all together. And I'm moved by their stories and I'm excited by the idea of new music. Even if it's three second clip that hasn't been seen or something in the way that you can, especially these days. I love letting clips run. So sometimes it rolls out and all you get is light leaking sprocket holes. There's a tactileness to this stuff as well. This, like there are rolls of film in existence that this got shot properly and there are contact sheets and there's stems and music. And now it might be kind of we're nearly in a place where it's all pixels and streams and that is the world that we live in. But I like reminding people that in the era that this was created, it was very, very tactile. And when I had those stems and when I thought about this tape, I just wanted to kind of go on a journey with that tape and give it a physicality, you know, the physicality that exists and the intimacy that you get with that. That film couldn't have come out at a worse time. When you put it into context with the general conversation around AI and it was like, AI is going to come over the hill and take everyone's jobs, but before it does that, it's going to destroy music. That was kind of the general feel. And what I saw when I started to write the now and then film was family giving the blessing for this tape to be taken and this kind of musical archeology to occur where someone's father was going to be able to be excavated out from this tape and Sean was going to be able to hear his dad and connect with his dad in a way that he was taken in such a horrible way. And so suddenly it's a very, very personal thing for him to be able to connect with his father. Can you imagine that hearing something with that level of clarity? It was such a wonderful. Even like from the off, it was such a wonderful, beautiful gift that was coming. And so I was thinking, you know, I find it very moving. I wanted to. That kind of set the stall, set the tone for making this short film. It's very hard to make a moving short film, I find, because it's so short, frankly, you don't have enough time to process all the information and all that kind of stuff. So we got into it and I made it. I made it in this room, really. Mostly it was just me putting it together with Johnny Halifax, who's a regular collaborator of mine, and Al Cirkit, who's the sound designer I always work with. And between the three of us, we put this short film together, I should say it all started because Universal Music were thinking about whether it was possible or not to get Paul and Ringo to kind of talk about this amazing story of the tape. And it actually, the original brief, was to say, well, they can't ask these two to tell such a complicated and delicate story over and over and over in all sorts of different parts of the world. Let's make a really strong single film that can be put out everywhere. And that was the brief, really, there was no more to it than that. It was roll your sleeves up and get stuck in. Then I knew that this was such a fantastic opportunity that I just wanted to try and over deliver as much as I possibly could when it came to just the richness of the archive and the wonderful sort of third act of it where Paul is saying how lucky he was to be around these other men. And that actually is sort of. Sort of kernel, I think what I took into episode nine, not just why now and then, is special technically, but why it's special to the individuals involved principally, and then it's special to the world at large in so many different ways. And that's. That weird thing with the Beatles, is a very precious thing to lots of people, but it's particularly precious in this instance of the Beatles themselves. And that's what I wanted to try and convey. And as I said, I made it with a very, very small little team. And then it's a wild thing to send it out and watch the kind of world have this sort of cultural moment with the Beatles. It was. It was unbelievable, frankly. It went everywhere, 21 countries, I think it was simultaneously broadcast on national TV and also Disney, YouTube, Hulu, HBO, and I'm sure I've missed out a few. But it's all the usual rules of exclusivity that Apply was thrown out the window and everywhere. And I was in LA with Jonathan Clyde, who I'm sure has come up on your podcast a number of times. Yeah, he's so expertly shepherded a whole raft of shows, both long and short, on the Beatles. He and I were in LA doing the last bits and pieces of interviews and podcasts and stuff about now and Then. And he said, this is November 2023. He said, so would I take the time over Christmas to write an outline for a potential new anthology episode? I didn't really have room to catch my breath between being asked to do the now and Then. I think the original now and Then short film, I think they said it can be about three minutes or something and there it was. That wasn't an opportunity I was going to let go of or under deliver on. And it's been two years since that. Well, two years since now and Then Film came out. I think I started that spring of 2023.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (14:40)

You described in another interview they liked your ideas and gave you the job. But you also explained quite rightly during the process, things move. You may have one particular vision at the start, but this will evolve along the way. So much so that you end up with something potentially different from what you envisioned at the start. So how did this project move when you first were tasked with telling the story of now and Then?

Oliver Murray (15:05)

The now and Then Short film? Yeah, I think mostly the fact that because there was the music video coming out, I was kind of left alone. It's another great thing of Jonathan Clyde and the team, you know, and Jeff, when he was at Apple at the time, they kind of let me find my feet with it and do my thing. And I think I've also said a couple of times that the way Paul works is, in my experience is lets you get on with it. It's freeing. But it's also creates a certain amount of anxiety because he's not going to see it till very, very late in the process. Having read the outlines and all that stuff, it's kind of like, okay, everything's all teed up, off you go. So I think it's just the way that you push and pull stuff and you have to be. You have to keep that North Star of knowing what the story is you're trying to tell. But then when you add in music and how, especially when you're dealing with the Beatles, it's actually really tricky to tell stories. You would imagine it would be an amazing thing to be able to tell a story and dip into the catalog and go, oh, we'll put this here or this here. And it's just gonna be a fabulous way of scoring a documentary. It's actually really hard. You can't just put Blackbird in and not have the audience immediately zone in on that amazing song. Can't just use an acoustic version of hey Jude or something, because it has roughly the right kind of tone that you're after when they're talking about something that happened in, you know, 95 or even later, if you're talking about what Peter Jackson did. It's weirdly very elastic, but also very rigid in what you're trying to do, if that makes sense. So I knew I wanted to. Obviously, I wanted to. I wanted to use the archive like a time machine. I knew I wanted to do that. I knew I wanted to go back in time, establish that there was this scratchy old demo tape in New York. I didn't exactly know how I was going to do that in the same way as, you know, you sort of go back in time and then start moving forward. So it's kind of like putting together a puzzle and, you know, the picture you're trying to create, but you're not sure if you've got all the pieces. And then the creativity really comes into play when you realize you don't have a particular piece, but you're still creating the same picture. And then sometimes you can get some really cool results by coming up with solutions for these holes, let's say, or not holes. But the other kind of remarkable thing about the Beatles is in the grand scheme of things, they weren't active for that long in terms of the amount of years that they did their thing. So there's not vast quantities of material. I've done some stuff with the Stones, who God love in their sixth decade or whatever, so there's all sorts of material that you can use from such a huge portion of time. With the Beatles, it's not the case. It's. It's so iconic. And if you put one cutaway from a film in with another, it has that, you know, you montage together this whole nother meaning, and it can derail the story you're trying to tell. So I think it's just kind of. It's a case of not panicking that this evolution is taking place, but always knowing when you are slipping away from that sense of place that you're trying to arrive at. Especially with a short film, you need to be very tight and it needed to have that kind of finality, I suppose, that there Was this rise and fall of a story that we find a tape, it goes on this journey. And then what I was really trying to do once I sort of landed on the structure for it, was we conclude that, yes, there was the technical conclusion of finding the tape. Using this, I used the phrase musical archeology, explaining exactly what happened and Peter Jackson's input. But then really the final chapter of that is this idea that they were, as John would say, they were just a band. I always come back to those kinds of phrases. It's usually from John. It's not putting them down, but it's almost saying that they were just a band and what they have done and what they mean to people. And I think it is because they're just a band that they mean so much. And that kind of bringing it back to that human level was really important. And I learned a lot about my relationship to the Beatles by making that short. And I'm really, really pleased that I got the opportunity to do that ahead of the anthology Episode nine, because that episode nine is sort of the same principle, but on steroids. How you approach such a huge subject.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (19:55)

Do you think that your work on the Stones film and Ronnie Scott's, that the work you've done, even music videos, how much of that informed your approach to doing Episode nine?

Oliver Murray (20:06)

It gave me the confidence that I wouldn't have had. I mean, it sounds obvious, but it's worth stating that you can't just get a lucky break and jump in the seat and think you're gonna be able to put episode nine together unless you've been through the mill a few times. Of even the practicalities of working with Arxiv, working with interviews and working with those kinds of teams, it kind of became obvious. I didn't come through, say, television, for example, where I wasn't a researcher or a producer beforehand. I came up, like I was saying earlier, through music videos and commercials. So very independently minded. And I only really realized that when I latterly started working for larger companies, that I was this sort of outlier of kind of almost DIY sort of approach to it, which it's amazing these days with technology and that kind of stuff, that the teams can stay really small as long as you don't have to. Kind of as long as it's not like Tuesday and you have to finish on a Friday, that's when you might need 200 people to get over the line. If you're afforded the time, you can work with a very small team to build these things. And especially with the way that the Beatles work at Apple. Apple's kind of small for a production company. But then if you think that actually it's. It's full because of this band. Not very many bands have a setup the size of Apple. So it's unique in so many ways. But I think is a more direct answer to your question. I'd say that what you learn is that every project is different. A lot of the cliches are true. And this sort of idea, if you learn a lot about yourself and kind of like what I was saying about the Jeff Beck clip, you need to know when something brilliant can't be in it. Because if it's in it, it's in it to the detriment of the whole piece. Was aware. Continue to be aware that there's a kind of sense with Beatles fans more so than. Than a lot of fans of the kind of bands I've collaborated with. There's. Sometimes the criticism is leveled that things should be longer. Length seems to be a big thing of we want more of it. Or say with the sessions on Free as a Bird and Real Love and things like that, if they're longer, then you're just stretching out like a piece of elastic. You're stretching out the same story. It's with diminishing returns. And then if you really stretch it, it does diminish the whole piece. You're looking for connections and you're looking for ways of bridging past and present and all that kind of. And if you stay in one era too long or with one media source too long, it starts to pull at the joints and kind of break it down more. So I think working on the films and TV shows that I've worked on gave me a strong sense of like knowing when to go, their instincts and knowing that if I respond to it, even if I respond to a 2 second piece of footage, it's important to remember that and put it in and not worry too much about the wider picture until a bit later on. That's where the push and pull comes in. You're allowed to make these rules to which you make shows by, but then also break them and then come back next week and rigidly stick to them again. And just kind of make sure that you keep it as a sort of sandpit for as long as you can because that's where all the best stuff comes from. And I think what's fantastic about working with the Beatles and Apple is they know that better. No one needs to explain to Paul and Ringo how to be creative. They Know what the conditions are to make that happen and let people get on with it. If they don't like it, it won't ever see the light of day. Said before, that's the anxiety sort of inducing part.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (23:48)

So there seems to be a sensibility of, and I think this is informed certainly by music videos and commercials of as a storyteller, you want to capture people immediately and get them to not tune out and not scroll past or move on to the next thing. And you've described this balancing act because then you've got the hardcore. It's like, well, you've got 17 minutes of footage. I want to see all 17 minutes. I want to see everything. So it's a tension, it's a balancing act. These two ideals are at war with each other. Do you see a world where both could coexist? I like the idea of leaner and meaner because I think that makes for a more powerful end result. Like when I was talking to Peter Jackson, he was describing how Disney originally wanted one thing out of him, a night length for get back. And he pushed and pushed it, threw in everything because that was his Beatle fandom in forming. Well, I've got the seat at the table representing all the fans around the world and they're going to want all this stuff. And he restored everything. So hopefully it'll be available in some fashion, streaming or whatever for the people really, really want to see it. Do you see a place where we can call it a director's cut of you saw what you saw, you heard what you heard and you're rightfully describing? Well, this brilliant moment is going to derail everything. It's not going to serve the purpose of this immediate goal and get us to the North Star. Is there a place for it for the people who want more? Do you see that it's possible to serve both goals?

Oliver Murray (25:13)

I hope so, because there was a world. Just to talk briefly about a show that I made with the Montreux Jazz Festival that was in terms of how malleable outputs can be of a certain production. That was a three part TV show that we made during the Pandemic when it was ready for cinema again, because the Montreal Jazz Festival is famously amazing, amazing tech used ever since the early 90s to record all their music. We made a cinema version of that, which sounds easy, but try telling the sources of funding that you want to do all these things and, you know, all at once and stuff. We're in a world now where that's possible. But then even better is that the entire archive of the Montreal Jazz Festival is available at Lausanne University. Any student or any visitor can apply and go and sit and watch somewhere. 21,000 gigs, endless. You'd have to go and live in Switzerland to try and crunch through all of those shows, and I think it surely will. There's a world where, similar to Bob Dylan having a lot of his written archives at the Smithsonian and all that sort of stuff, there will be an archive. The question will be whether it's digitized and therefore accessible remotely. One way or another, I'm sure the Beatles will be top of most people's lists. When we talk about digital archives and the way museums are starting to function now and all that kind of stuff, if you think, right, well, when it comes to music and 20th century art and culture, what can we digitize and make available? It would require a kind of academic approach to it, more so than an entertainment hat, purely because of the numbers and the rights and all those kinds of things. If Ringo whistles a tune, then it has to be cleared. If you can hum it, you have to clear it. So there's a whole spaghetti of legals and bits. And behind something like the Anthology. It's one thing that, honestly, I wouldn't know where to start with the legal wranglings that have to go on with all this stuff. Especially as we know that in the early 60s the music industry wasn't as robust as it is now with how things get cleared and all those sorts. So that would be a huge mountain to climb. But I would be very surprised if we don't see some sort of archive being made available through an academic institution of some kind. I really hope that happens. I have to say that the old Beatles fans that are aching for there to be a kind of box of unseen materials or something somewhere, I would bet my house that there isn't at this point. Now, the Anthology was a full stop on a fantastic run of these new Beatles shows coming out. And the Mendez dramas, they're a kind of island of activity slightly outside of internally, what the grand scheme was from Apple's perspective. But unless there's some grand joke, Ringo's sitting on a treasure chest of goodies, which, as I say, I highly doubt that take comfort in the fact that we have what we have and we're not missing, we're not going to miss out on anything so specifically about the.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (28:45)

Anthology Free as a bird 3D sessions. We've seen the bulk of what there is. It's incredible to me that I think you made the point either Another conversation or somewhere that they didn't want to be filmed at work on these songs.

Oliver Murray (28:59)

Yeah.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (29:00)

Yet they informally had their own little camcorders around to document things. And there's shots where all three of them are in it. So clearly somebody else was holding the camera. Was that really what you had to work with? Generally, there was not much more beyond that. Nothing formally documenting things.

Oliver Murray (29:17)

So I think that's what makes it so special, is especially For Free As a Bird. They said no cameras. They really said that. So. And then when Ringo brings his Handycam in, no one's going to tell Ringo no cameras, you know, so. And I love how that you see them holding them and they're kind of, you know, this is new stuff. At the time it looks really kind of shonky and weird, and Ringo's got his lens cap on a string and it's flapping around and stuff like that. But that's why I think it's so special, because it was very, very possible that there would be nothing for Free As a bird. There's more for Real Love because they come back the following year and they're more comfortable because they're thinking, okay, this is cool, we're happy. And there's very little for now and then. A, because the majority of the time was taken up with fears of Bird and Real Love, and B, because it just wasn't something that they felt they could crack. And one of the things I love about that material, especially if you kind of recently watched the Get Back series, which lots of people have by the time they're coming to this stuff, the interpersonal relationships are still very much there that you've got when it's time to do now and Then. Ringo's gone. George is kind of saying, well, we've got two good ones. It's poignant when he says, we'll do that one next time. He says, it's so sad to know that there won't be a next time. But it's Paul that's sitting at the piano, still going, and his engineers holding the camera, and he's just trying to work. He's just thinking about it and all this kind of stuff. There are gems like that between the now and then short episode 9 of the anthology and Free as a Bird, A Song Reborn, which is the third short film that came out just before Christmas that I put together between those three. That is most of the material on those sessions. You couldn't really cut them together as one long sessions movie because there'd be all sorts of gaps it comes in fits and starts. So, for example, there's a lovely bit where Paul and George are singing the Real Love harmonies. And we hear them do it and so, sure, I think we know we use a second take and there would have been a first one before that's not quite as good. And George says, I didn't quite get it. Let's use the next one. So I think what people would find is there is just a slightly substandard version of everything that they've seen. Sure. From an academic perspective, if someone wanted to watch raw rushes, I hope that that is made available for those that really. I know people do want to see this stuff. And we sunk it and cut it together. And I know Peter said the same thing on a grand scale with all that film that needed to be sunk and everything. I hope that all the stuff is made available. But there are. There are big holes in. Peter said this that, you know, there's lots of stuff they had the audio for and not the visual for. Similarly, we have people leaving rooms and we have no reverse shot or anything like that. There'd be a lot of text cards just to give you context. Just the geography, for example, of what's going on or the time of day and things like that. Which, sure, if there's a world where that can happen, I think it would be fantastic. But when you're trying to principally tell the story of what's going on, I wasn't sitting there tearing my hair up, wishing we had more. I really wasn't.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (32:56)

Were there things that you very much wanted in the ninth episode that for one reason or another, wasn't possible, or that maybe even interrupted the story you were wanting to tell? But it was so cool and you enjoyed it when you were experiencing it. It's something that the fans would want, but it just didn't have a place.

Oliver Murray (33:14)

That's a great question. Funny enough, I sort of almost trained myself to ditch that. If you've decided you're cutting it, you can't hang on to it because it's not doing any sort of service. There were bits and pieces sometimes. Sometimes it can be tricky from a licensing perspective to use photography if the Beatles camp don't own it. Some of these photographers, sometimes it's fair enough. Other times, eye watering costs can be involved. You know, single photo. I need to know when to put my foot down and say it's central to the story. And then I also need to know when to take my foot off the gas and say, okay, well, it's fine. These things are out there in magnificent coffee table books or things like that, or in some cases 8 foot tall moma or something. I don't need to give anyone a hard time over things that are out in the world.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (34:05)

So I picked the battles.

Oliver Murray (34:07)

Yeah, I always fight for the stuff that we'd found first time that no one else had seen. And the interesting thing about Anthology as well was, and I hope you agree that there are things that I'd seen in the past, like the Deso Hoffman 8 millimeter of them on the beach in their funny outfits that when I'd seen or if you've seen it on YouTube, you can just about make out who's who. And then with the level of restoration and going back to the source and scanning the material in London, sending it to New Zealand, getting it back as a 4K file. There are certain bits where I thought this is coming up so beautifully that we are going to luxuriate in certain places just because. Yes, you may have seen it, but you've not seen it like this and you've not heard it like this. I think one of my favorite bits when it comes to finding things in the archives was Paul playing Helter Skelter. And it's slightly out of sync in the sort of technical department. They were going, oh, you can't use that because it's out of sync. And it something to do with the stretch, an actual physical stretch. Something's the speed of which it was recorded means that it will never work. And I said we're putting it in and I know it's slightly off, but if you give me the choice of letting people see it or saying, oh, it's impersonal, we're talking about something like a tenth of a second. And it's not a very long clip and it's not dialogue so you're not getting goldfishing or anything. It's just he's playing and we put that in. And that was the kind of thing where you have to be careful that the technology doesn't lead the creative. Because there was a very sort of real world where that and a couple of other bits and pieces like that wouldn't have gone into to episode nine because sprocket holes or a lot of stuff that was filmed for television in the 90s would have been framed for a 4, 3 ratio. And we're going 9:16. So there's lots of artifacts and bits and pieces on the top corners and things like that, which some people would say, well, they're, they're problems or mistakes or things like that. And I say, well, no, they're not. You know, this stuff is. It kind of goes back to what I was saying before. There's a tactileness to all this material that I really love. If it's got a bit of light, flare and all that kind of stuff, we put it in. If it's a problem of soft focus or it needs sharpening, that's something that the guys down in New Zealand at Park Road Post can look at. But the actual let's not let the kind of technology scrub up something that has such a lovely aesthetic. I used the phrase a time machine. I think this archive gives us that gift of almost like going back in time to sit with them and then we can run between 60s and 90s in the now and then short film. It was the 60s, the 90s and the 2000s. Aesthetics matter. Yes, that kind of thing.

Podcast Announcer (37:05)

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Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (38:17)

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Oliver Murray (38:46)

Pleased to be able to get the Wilbreeze conversation in George explaining about which I wasn't really able to do in the now and then short because it's a Short, you know, as I say, I think originally they wanted it to be about two to three minutes. And when I handed in 12 minutes, similar thing to Peter supposedly doing a movie of Get Back and then says here you go, his, his is kind of similar thing. So to be able to go back with episode nine and, and have George explain what he was doing with the Wilbury's and the whole Elvis thing and the fact they chose not to do it, I think that's kind of telling as well of that's why George had that kind of slight kind of negative feelings to begin with about the project because he's thinking that, oh, we thought about this with Elvis and replacing Roy Orbison and if John's doing it, I'm not so sure. And then when they actually took the plunge and did it worked out great. But that's the kind of, that's the kind of level of detail I was really pleased to be able to get into episode nine and the kind of gems that are in there. I know that fans appreciate that stuff and I always pushing for it and it, as I was saying before that you can still get that stuff in but be able to tell a really great broader arc for new fans that are coming to it. Because people I was working with, not at Apple of course, but some people kind of came and asked me, you know, young people in the marketing team, for example, would say, ollie, why is there only three of them? And so what? Well, that's what you're working to try. And I don't want to alienate those people and I don't want to make them. I don't want to say what are you talking about? You should know this stuff because although it's kind of, in my opinion, almost should be part of the curriculum certainly in the uk, kind of what does it mean to be British? There's a chapter on the Beatles on that for sure, but. And then explaining, by the way, when this goes out, newsflash. Sadly, George isn't with us either. They don't necessarily know it like we do because it's just. There's just everything's happening all at once, all the time and there's all sorts of stuff. They appreciate the music but they don't know the chronology and they don't necessarily have all the facts to hand on the shelf to be able to get into kind of conversation about it. So they're the two extremes, if you like. I understand some people would have loved almost completely unedited version of the Free as a Bird Sessions, but then you also have to explain to people, John's not around, you know, that's quite a big thing to try and breach.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (41:28)

Peter Jackson kind of revolutionized the making of these kind of historic films when he took the footage deemed unusable from the Imperial War Museum and went on to make they Shall Not Grow Old. And yet the bit of that of the Maisel's Brothers footage in Beatles 64, that's this gem of a money quote from Paul.

Oliver Murray (41:49)

That's not culture. What is it? That's a good laugh.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (41:52)

That was again, this footage couldn't be used back in the day. I was wondering if between 1995 and you're getting your hands on this material now, was there much that technology has advanced so much beyond not just making Desert Hoffman footage look better, but stuff that you thought couldn't be used, and now suddenly it's within reach and can be used, was there much of that going into this?

Oliver Murray (42:14)

There wasn't a huge AM film because except for home movies, one of the great joys of having worked with a lot of of archive on the shows I put together is 35 millimeter and 16 millimeter is. It's a pretty robust medium. And when people went and made films in 63, 64, 65 even, they didn't do it lively. It's not like now where we might just run out maybe, you know, film a sort of a pilot on our phone or something and then go and do it for real with a slightly bigger camera. Taking a 35 mil camera out anywhere was a professional endeavor that required five people just to run the camera. That's before you'd even lit the thing or decide what you're actually shooting. So it was. When it comes to the Beatles, they sort of land. You've some of the news footage, I think, actually, so I'm waffling about. But I guess what I'm reaching for is that what I actually find is the technology has allowed us to find material all over the world. I mean, when I started, if someone said, oh, there's a guy in Finland that has a tin of film that he says is a newsreel from California from when his cousin worked at ABC and took it home when he was, I don't know, you know, I'm making it up now, but that's. You had to follow these breadcrumbs, spend quite a lot of money and time taking a punt on whether or not this stuff was going to actually be usable or if it was even indeed what they said it was. Whereas now I think what technology can do is if someone in Helsinki says, I've got this, it's from ABC in 1964, whatever, they can send you a screener and you can see it. Even if it's a tiny, tiny postage stamp size, you can still at least think of it as a puzzle piece for your. For your story and say, great, email the back. Someone's going to come around, someone's going to take the film, scan it, we're going to scan the source. That's, I think, what also what technology, but also resource to use the technology. To be honest, it is a wonderful thing to work with Disney on something like the anthology, because there is a budget to be able to go back to source and scan all the film from scratch, send it without leaving my house. You know, all this stuff happens because. So I think it's just the level of communication that means you're really able to get going with the filmmaking far, far sooner than ever before. Whereas there's not as much manpower needed to track down a tape in a shoebox or something like that. So I think that has changed things. I'm not 100% sure if I answered your question.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (45:15)

Well, as a follow on to that, was there anything that you weren't expecting that came along suddenly? It's like, this is usable and this is gold. I'm going to insert this in that. Maybe you didn't anticipate these happy accidents or these happy occurrences that come along that wasn't part of your original script or thinking, but it's like, I've got to accommodate this. This is too good not to use.

Oliver Murray (45:36)

One of my favorite things to do is go to Apple and go and hang out with Dorcas Lynn, who looks after all of the stills, all of the photography that they have there. And it's digitized, but it's also in big folders, negatives and things like that. And they have too much to just sort of process in a big batch. So a lot of the time, the way they prioritize what it is they're going to scan and clean up is that they get an email and someone says, hey, have you got George doing X or Y with such and such guitar or something? And they go through it and I just wanted to find images of them hanging out because I wanted in episode nine to talk about their friendship, you know, and they're just again getting back to this idea that they were very young guys playing music. That was ultimately really what it was all about. And I get the eyepiece down and I'm Looking through these contact sheets and everything, and I start to see them guys all hanging out outside a shoe store. And it turns out to be the shoe store that they're talking about in the interviews. That's one of my favorite things to do is I call it a footage safari where you're kind of, you know, it's going to be eight hours long, you know, you know, it's a day and you're going out, you know, you'd love to find something or I guess like fishing as well. That's the same sort of appeal then putting stuff together and finding that there's in that same reel. Because when it's a tiny, tiny thing, it just looks like some shoes or whatever, but then you realize under the microscope that it actually says Ringo down the hill and it's a photo of their custom shoes and. And then suddenly you've got these puzzle pieces where you can tell the story of the beetle boots, which sort of. I was really surprised when they started talking about that. And I was going through the footage, I had a little mark next to it in the transcript saying, great material. That's such a shame that the whole kind of origin story of the beetle boots is in episode two or whatever. And then when I over Christmas rewatched it all, I realized, no, they. They don't talk about the haircuts or the suits or the beetle boots. They do in the famous airport. You're going to get a haircut, wiggle, wiggle thing. But to be able to. To go over there and just find something that feels so small, it's just, I think, having the stamina to. Rather than think of it as, oh, it's just one or two photos. It's actually the beginning of a whole scene. If you keep going and you keep finding these bits and pieces and then before you know it, you've got the whole kind of what we end up with in episode nine, which is them talking about going to a ballet shop to get their beetle boots made with the Cuban heel and everything. And it's. It's a series of little moments, isn't it? These. These things. And there's no shortcut. You get all these bits and pieces, thousands of little moments, and string them together and tell the story that way and make sure that you don't let anything slip through the crack.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (48:40)

Was there much more footage at Friar park of them out on the lawn with the ukes or the 3D Acoustic Blue Moon Kentucky Jam, just to show the. Or even. Because one of the things that was a new Thing to even the hardcore fans was the film of them at EMI in the studio floor with Durango's.

Podcast Announcer (49:01)

Drums in the back.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (49:02)

The first thing I'm thinking is, why didn't they use this in the 90s? Was there much more?

Oliver Murray (49:06)

Yeah, why didn't they? Honestly, I think that. I think that that must have been shot so late in the day that, you know, the ship had sailed at that point. A lot of the stuff that we used of George and Paul, actually, they have Paul when he's in New York with his black jacket on. That was kind of EPK stuff, which, again, I'd seen bits and pieces of that, but literally in. In Those sort of EPKs, the electronic press kits that would have gone out to a small handful of record executives or whatever, they're just a communication tool. When the stuff that I've seen on YouTube, it's literally a sentence, or in some cases half a sentence by Paul and the second half by Ringo, for example. So that was another case of sort of on the tin. You think, well, this is seen, technically speaking, but you've not. It really isn't. You know, it's so underused because this is in an era where there's no Internet and there was just no outlet for all this conversation. They just forensically got the bits that they needed, which was usually, you know, what's the title, what's the release date, and how do they feel about it? One, two, three, and you're out. So it was almost taking everything back to square one and just taking a breath and just recontextualizing it in this new sort of streamer age, where it can be as long as you want the piece to be, really. And there's always a place for these things. It is difficult when four people are telling the story, because it's actually four different stories.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (50:46)

I mean, you must realize it's got.

Oliver Murray (50:48)

To be somewhat of a compromise when four people.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (50:52)

People are involved.

Oliver Murray (50:54)

But we're trying to just say how it felt to us. And I do hope that any bits and pieces that could go out in their entirety for those that are interested, will be able to. Through an academic institution.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (51:08)

We're able to find the fuller conversations from these EPKs. Like a context sheet. Everybody knows the one frame, but there's all this around it that didn't get used. Yeah, you were able to track that stuff down. Okay, that's awesome.

Oliver Murray (51:21)

I mean, because most of the time in documentary making, you're always heartbroken because it takes a certain amount of resource to store all this material and to kind of log it and. And you need someone to keep the memory of what these things are alive and out in the world. The great thing about the Beatles is there's a value to it. So if anyone's got any Beatles content of any sort anywhere, they've sort of shouted about it, you know, and, you know, what's on it and things like that. And it's there to be used. So I was able to kind of go through everything and they recontextualize it. For this new Episode nine, I wanted to take the Anthology back sort of full circle, really, to that kind of time of I knew when I saw the stuff of them in the Abbey Road and on the lawn. It's just fun, isn't it? And it's a shame the way. Because of the narrative of the Beatles, it ends with a cloud over their heads, as every band breakup story does. But that's not the. It's the end of the Beatles operational years, should we say. But it's far from the end of the Beatles. Their lives beyond it and the legacy of it and the memory of it and the impact of it. So that's what I wanted episode nine to do, really, was kind of bring it back home in a sort of cyclical fashion to somewhere kind of at the beginning. There was. Sometimes I hedge my bets on whether or not I should have even mentioned things like this, but there was about a month where episode nine was going to be episode one or episode zero. It was actually going to be called Episode Z E R O. And this all goes back to this thing of are we introducing the Beatles? Are we letting new people discover them? Or are we doing what I'm very pleased that we did in the end, which, as I say, is to sort of bring it full circle with more of a sensible chronology that the Freezer Bird and Real Love now and Then sessions sit at the end as opposed to at the beginning would be slightly odd. But this was all about wrestling with this idea of, like I've been saying, people come to the Beatles in all sorts of different ways with all sorts of different understanding and appreciation for how the music was created. And that target is moving all the time. So in the end, I just sort of listened to myself and backed myself and put together something that I was excited by and thought, if I am, I think other people will be too.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (53:53)

I can see a case being made for both notions of how to put this together, but it definitely works either way. I was wondering any thought given because we are lucky enough that in 1995, who would've seen 30 years on that they would not only be around, be as active as ever with recording and performing the two surviving Beatles. Any thought given to. Well, let's see if we could sit the two of them down and just get their thoughts 30 years later on what they did in 1995. What do you think about that 30 years later? You know, sort of like a seven up approach to, okay, this is what you did then. Now what? You don't have to necessarily ask them about in 2025, what you did in 1963. We've got that covered, thank you. What about 1995? Do you have any thoughts on Anthology and where it fits in your life and what you thought you were doing? Did it hit the mark? Is there anything you would have done different? That sort of thing?

Oliver Murray (54:49)

One of the things that I find very inspiring about Paul and Ringo is just how busy they still are. So the answer is yes, I think that would be a very interesting conversation. I know firsthand that to get an interview with one of them, let alone both of them, would. I mean, forget it next year if you went with your diary open at sort of January 2028, maybe kind of thing. Because, I mean, well, Ringo's got his music coming out and Paul was just. Chicago was the last day of his tour, wasn't it? So, I mean, just getting those guys in a room would be fantastic, full stop, no matter what they were going to be talking about. I think it's also been. It's so interesting on the one hand, I'd love to see what would happen. I'm also in great admiration of the fact that they are still looking forward to new things and putting out new things. I mean, I guess I'm the beneficiary of that kind of approach because I. I'm allowed to tell their stories and make shows on their behalf, if you like. But, yeah, the fact that after the Beatles they kind of dust themselves off and Paul is. It's just, you know, unbelievable what he's gone on to do and is still doing. So sometimes find it hard to think of what kind of Beatles projects may still be in the pipeline just because they both just have so much they want to do, you know, which is astonishing, really, to not just be resting on the legacy of the Beatles, but Paul especially is just going and going and going.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (56:31)

Be too busy in the now to take a look back 30 years.

Oliver Murray (56:35)

That's unbelievable. I know, it's great. Who knows? Who knows? I was blown away to get the original call for now and then and to do episode nine and then also the Free as a Bird short as well and all that. That's. I wouldn't say more than enough because I would love to do all sorts but I can't believe my luck, shall we say? So I'm happy.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (56:59)

That's a good point. Say more on that. If you can envision what would be a Beatle project that no one's asked you to do that you would like to do. Not to be the guy that does nothing but Beatles, but as a fan.

Oliver Murray (57:10)

Oh, I mean, I know, but there are worse things. Someone said that to me the other day. They said, oh, don't get typecast. Like please, if I can be typecast as working with these legacy acts of which the entire music firmament is sort of built off of, then happily stay in my lane and keep going if they have me back. I'm not sure I have been a bit of a running man over the last few years and to get the call with the Beatles and skip through and work on this, there definitely is some kind of full stop on productions over at Apple core. I mean there's a whole new energy of things but the, the Jeff Jones era of which I was kind of part of if you like, is that's there's a changing of the guard and new things will happen and a new approach will take place but.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (58:05)

Anything you could talk about?

Oliver Murray (58:06)

No, I'm afraid not. I'm not sitting on any information. The Anthology was the end of, of a specific chapter of action. So we'll see what happens next. There's new individuals and things to get their feet under the desk and stuff like that. We'll see. I mean one thing's for sure is against the Beatles. You know there's always going to be.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (58:29)

Something you'd had that great quote I read that sort of Beatles energy that will be left I think for hundreds of years after they're gone. It's safe to say that if Mozart's still around, the Beatles would be around for some time. That seems incredibly self evident to everybody but Sean Lennon. I'm afraid the Beatles won't be discovered. That's why I keep doing this stuff. What did you make of that quote?

Oliver Murray (58:52)

It's interesting, isn't it? I mean I have a lot of time, I have a lot of time for him and I think that I suppose the world is moving at an incredibly fast pace and there are people, as I say, that were working on this project that were asking questions like why is there only three of them and more recently, only two kind of things. So I think it comes in waves. I've no doubt that maybe there'll be in our lifetime. There may be a scenario where if you take your foot off the gas, it's such. Everyone's competing for eyeballs that it might. I guess. I mean, I think about, you know, bands like Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd. I don't feel like I get hammered when I go out into the world by Pink Floyd imagery. And I don't go to shops and hear it all the time, if ever, to be honest. But then they come back with like the Live in Pompeii thing last year. Amazing. It's like breaking records in cinemas and all that sort of stuff. It comes in sort of ebbs and flows.

Podcast Announcer (59:57)

I think by the time comes in.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (59:59)

The next wave, there's. There's always a succession of Beetle waves, you see.

Oliver Murray (60:03)

Yeah, exactly. And. And the way that. The way that the Beatles is also now part of the culture. The culture sometimes brings bands like the Beatles up organically as well. I mean, it's a pretty dark time at the moment, so there's not a lot of sort of natural beatly moments in the world, but do you know what I mean? Sometimes it's kind of. I think it's less about maintaining some sort of constant presence and just thinking of it more like it's coming in and out with the tide, that it's always there. That's how I kind of think. That's how I think it's best done as well, because you can overdo it. You definitely, definitely can push too hard and then you can also let it. Just let it go. I was potentially working with an artist I won't name, but his widow sort of said, yeah, we're just sort of shut the office and there's no. There's not going to be a doc or a movie or anything in particular. We're just sort of done. And I thought, oh, well, yeah, that's. That's the other extreme of you need someone in the engine room making sure these things tick over. And the difference with the Beatles, you know, that the record labels and the things will. There's those big lists of anniversaries and things on record execs, walls and things. Beatles aren't going anywhere. I mean. Yeah, that's. I think I probably said that about Mozart because in the uk at least, anyway, we've had two or three reach shows. There's been a big documentary and a big. A big drama about Mozart with Paul Bettany playing It's the Salieri, see Amadeus kind of, kind of idea on tv. It's not going anywhere. Especially when I think, you know, great story, great mythology around it, great music. Beatles are the same. I mean, it's great. It's. It's folklore for us in the uk, It's British folklore. We've just had Christmas and Father Christmas. It's like the Beatles, you know, it's the same kind of resonance for us. Sure.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (62:07)

One of the things just aside, as I'm thinking of it now is you described getting access to all these stems. And even with the film, it's like the run up to the part that was the goal of the shoot that day. That's the interesting stuff to you. The stuff that's not necessarily meant for public consumption. And you've got all these great moments, count offs and studio dialogue and stuff like that. That is just absolute catnip to the fans. We just love this stuff. If they could present it some way, somehow. There was this record that was made in the 70s, having fun with Elvis on stage. That's nothing but his stage banter. I don't know. But Beatles could do this and get away with it and it would be an amazing thing. So I guess what I'm saying is I'm glad you put this into number nine, but there's gotta be so much stuff out there that endlessly would be fascinating to Beatle fans for sure.

Oliver Murray (63:07)

1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 4. If you married tonight. Remember what I said tonight. Definitely. As I said before, I think the issue is it's not going to be presented as entertainment. It's not going to be financed through the traditional models. The traditional models are falling apart as well in terms of how these shows get made. So I don't think a longer, more ambitious timeline will come through Disney, for example, or anyone even close to that world. But if the tapes can be made available through possibly somewhere like the British Library or the Smithsonian or something along those lines, then I'm sure it's possible it'll happen. Yeah.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (64:10)

The thing that I default to is that Beatles, if you're going to look at entertainment acts, recording acts, I think we can universally concede, have historically been the most popular, biggest base of fandom. There's new Beatle fans being made every day. And if King Crimson can put out streaming every concert, every studio take of everything, and it's viable and it makes sense to serve their fans, why not the Beatles? Where is Carnival of Light? You know, why not?

Oliver Murray (64:38)

Where is Carnival of Light? Yeah, I'm not in opposition to that idea at all. I'm not making a documentary about Carnival of Light right now, unfortunately. But there's enough noise around it that. That in itself would be a good short, wouldn't it?

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (64:54)

You know, it absolutely would be.

Oliver Murray (64:56)

What is Carnival of Light? I know, I know, I. Yeah, I mean, that. That. That is a sort of almost a psychus. That's a different question because that's. That's putting out a piece of music that's very different from the hours and hours and hours of session tapes and all that sort of stuff and Wright Spaghetti that I was talking about before. And, you know, if you. If they're playing such and whatever tune it is and Ringo harms a George Fornby song or whatever, it's. It's tough. It's harder than people realizing. And the thing with. There's a lot of favors that need to go on and a lot of please and thank yous and stuff around rights clearance. But the Beatles are very strict about clearing other people's music because they respect. They don't ask people to do something that they wouldn't do themselves. You know, so there's all sorts of stuff. I don't know Carnival of Light. But also, then again, I really respect the idea that if there's a reason that they don't want to put it out, then we don't want to force bands to put stuff out that they tried. And there's loads of bands that record stuff and it never sees the light of day because they don't want. They don't feel like it represents them. I loved the idea of now and Then being the last Beatles record. I thought it was so appropriate in so many ways. For example, so the idea clearly very, very biased with my. With my Up There now and Then on the wall. That was by design. Do you know what I mean? That wasn't just like, oh, let's put something out and see what happens. There was a whole idea of the last Beatles record, you know, and the.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (66:45)

Full circle with the first Beatles record of Love Me do on the flip.

Oliver Murray (66:48)

Yeah, it's perfect. So I'm now backtracking from Carnival of Light because of that.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (66:54)

Well, it is sort of one app. It wasn't meant to go on a Beatles album. It was an event piece and it's unrecorded or unreleased music they did during the pepper session. So it would inform us about something that's already got a lot of attention anyway, where their heads were at as their artistry was evolving. At this very critical juncture between the end of touring and becoming the studio band. So it has historic value and size of curiosity. Value. There's plenty of people that would happily Give up Revolution 9 on the white Album. I'm not one of them and plenty of people I know aren't. But there are people that would, you know, if that's out in the wild, if that's in the world, if Two Virgins is out in the world, why not Carnival of Light? Yeah, but you're not the person I need to convince.

Oliver Murray (67:38)

Yeah. Oh, I mean, I'll be there. I. I quite like the idea of like a kind of, as you say, that the event, the nature of it, play it at somewhere like the Roundhouse in London and, you know, do something that engineer it or whatever to put on a show, you know, in that kind of space and then find equivalents in other places and do it a bit like that or something. You know, the kind of. Goes back to what I was saying of. Especially if you're talking about someone like Paul McCartney, as interesting as that might be to him, he wants to get shit done, as they say, and he's a busy man. And I'm just not sure he wants to go back and spend a year of his life, or whatever it might be, on something like that, when he's got tools. Rather be touring the us, playing all that stuff. And I suppose if you put it in that context, I'd say all those people that went to the tour would probably take that over. Carnival of Light project, perhaps, but who knows? We've sort of stepped into the realms of fantasy.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (68:42)

Can you envision 30 years from now, somebody taking up the Anthology story from where you have left off with 9? Is there a place you could see them going with it?

Oliver Murray (68:53)

I wonder if there's. I mean, we know that there will at some point be some sort of doc of people just talking about the Beatles, you know, fans, celebrity fans or things like musicians talking about their influence and things like that. But given that the key, the cornerstone of the Anthology, it's the Beatles talking about the Beatles, it's. There's no one else.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (69:16)

Well, talking about Anthology, like, I think there is a great story to be told. How did that happen? We've been told for years. Well, George only did it because his business manager ripped him off and he needed the cash. Is that true? And what were the dynamics like? Because this wasn't that far off the heels of Paul not showing up at the Rock and Roll hall of Fame, so. But it did generate so much goodwill. He immediately makes flaming pie with Jeff Lynn. So I think there is a story with a natural arc there that would be attractive to somebody. The story of Anthology.

Oliver Murray (69:49)

Yeah. Never say Never. I think it goes back to what I'm way too close to it of having worked exclusively. Pretty much, give or take only a couple of bits and pieces. But I did a Live Aid bed it at 40.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (70:04)

That was wonderful. I really enjoyed that.

Oliver Murray (70:06)

Oh, thanks. Yeah, No, I know I did that. That was an amazing thing to do in its own right. Was also an amazing kind of break from the kind of intensity of the pressure of working with the Beatles for such a sustained amount of time. Because it means so much to me to get it right that it's been some big old slog. And it was. It's been really nice to talk to you this afternoon. For me, because it's. I'm still very much. It's almost slightly like. It's very, very therapeutic. So I've been so close to the coal face, literally, you know, two weeks ago. So it's hard to talk about it properly with. With something that's remotely close to a sense of distance. So I hope what I've been saying has been interesting because it's been hard for me at times to find my feet with some of these things because it's. It's been my day to day for hundreds of days in a row. It's been fantastic to, you know, see it come out and. And be looked upon overwhelmingly favorable. Favorably, I would say. I think so many of these things run a momentum. And it would need momentum. Would need. Would need to. It's pretty much run down to close to zero right now, just at the close of the Anthology. And we know that there's going to be these Mendez films. So, like, that's coming down the pipe. That's kind of the next thing that I think everybody is waiting to see what that's going to be like. I'm nervous, but, you know, we'll see how that works. And then maybe the tide comes in again and there's more stuff. But I think that was. That was planned out for quite some time, this run of this. This. This kind of partnership, if you like, with Disney getting. I read in a couple of places this idea of almost like a Disney tradition, that there'll be a new Beatles thing coming out. I don't think that was necessarily the intention. It was just there was this wonderful momentum that with filmmaking, it requires so many people to be pointing in the same direction when they do. I Think there's this wonderful energy that people have of like, right, while we're all moving ahead, let's do this. Or what about this one? Or this one? And now I think people are catching their breath and letting it be out there, letting this information and this new viewpoint sort of percolate and then we'll see. And the lovely thing with the Beatles is they've always embraced new technologies and things like that. So I was kind of joking at the wrap party. I'll see everyone again in five years for the Smelly Vision version or something. Where did you have those scratch and sniff books? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if Disney want me to make a scratch and sniff version of the anthology where we. We go into the Cavern Club and there's a little symbol down the bottom. Scratch. Scratch that. When I go to India, scratch that one or I'll be right there. That might be quite a hard sell.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (73:14)

Right, but you never know with Beatles.

Oliver Murray (73:16)

Yes, exactly. Yeah, I see you in two years. Time for the chat about scratch and sniff. I'm here to film you for this anthology. The more we have of you, George, the better.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (73:32)

Something about the Beatles created and hosted by Robert Rodriguez, executive producer Rick Way.

Podcast Announcer (73:39)

Title song performed by the Corgis.

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (73:43)

Something about the Beatles is a different evergreen podcast.

Oliver Murray (73:56)

What's your favorite Beatles song? What Beatles songs are there? What ones do you like? What beat songs are there? Do you like Yellow Submarine? Yes. It's a good one, isn't it? Right. I'll say goodbye to you, Robert. And we all live in Yellow Tambo. There we go. I'll email. But why does the microphone not get very loud? Because it's not into a speaker. We all live in a thumb. Thanks, Robert. Speak to you very soon. All the best. Can you put the microphone into a speaker?

Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (74:40)

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Oliver Murray (74:55)

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Podcast Host (Robert Rodriguez) (74:56)

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