Jim Windolf (3:48)

Yeah, that was in a way, that was my only hesitation when I had the idea. I was like, if this idea is legit, how come nobody's done it before? Because it's almost. It's almost obvious. Right, Right. But really the. The thing that got me started was I'd once appeared. Do you know that podcast that it's. It's defunct now, but I am the egg pod.

Robert Rodriguez (4:08)

Yes.

Jim Windolf (4:09)

Yeah. So that was an enjoyable show. And I went on there one time to talk about McCartney, because I'd written this McCartney essay a long time ago, and I just thought, like, I like to go back on that show. And I'd had this idea kicking around about the connections between Dylan and the Beatles. Like you've often mentioned, like, one day you'll do a Dylan episode. Right. So I just started writing down the parallels and that's how it started. And then, then I was like, oh, this is deeper than I thought. And like. And actually the story is not settled. Like, when I looked in different major biographies, they would disagree on the basic facts. And I was like, it looks like nobody's even settled what the story is, you know? So it was like the deepest rabbit hole I'd ever gone into, where it just kept going and going. And I thought at some point, oh, maybe it's an article. And then I was like, no, it felt like a book suddenly. And then it took five years.

Robert Rodriguez (4:58)

And it's good on you for doing it and having the guts to take it on everything you've just said. There's not settled law in a lot of these anecdotes. And this book is rich with anecdotes, which is what really gives it a sense of immediacy in being there. As you're collating all this history, these parallel artistic paths that these two entities are on. Dylan on one side and the Beatles on the other. It's really cool that you sort of present what we have. And people can draw their own conclusions from the witnesses that were there. For example, just to pull one example out of the book, Bob's reaction to Tomorrow Never Knows. Right.

Jim Windolf (5:37)

There are three different accounts of that. So I just present them all. And, you know, and I think they do have something. They all have something in common, which was Bob was skeptical of this song and the Beatles new direction and didn't really care for studio trickery, like. So, at least that's the common thread. There's a Marianne Faithful account, a Paul McCartney account, and the Robbie Robertson account. And that's what they all have in common, although they differ in the particulars. So Marianne Faithful's is, in a way, the funniest. Where she said Bob just stared at McCartney and walked out of the room. That was at the Mayfair. Everybody agrees it happened at the Mayfair Hotel at Dylan suite. And Robbie Robertson says that. Dylan says, what's this? And Lennon says, gotta give the folks something new, Bob. You know, like that. And then McCartney's story, which is the most famous account is Dylan says to him, oh, I get it. You don't want to be cute anymore. Now McCartney's messed up, that story, as you might know. He insists, as he often does with his. The stories that he tells. He insists that it was sergeant Pepper in his story, which wasn't recorded until much later. Dylan was not in England in 1967 or 68. He was not there. So this story had to happen in 66, when Dylan was at the Mayfair Hotel. That was the last time he was there, until 69. And there's so many accounts of the Beatles playing Revolver tracks for Dylan. And the Tomorrow Never Knows story just fits with that perfectly.

Robert Rodriguez (7:10)

The chronology is fantastic. Again, the way you connect these dots and the way you draw these parallels. What's going on with Dylan and what's going on with the Beatles concurrently with each other. And there's this great sense of inevitability that these two artists, the group of artists and Bob that are rooted with their great love of Little Richard and rock and roll back at the very beginning, so much so that Bob codifies it in his high school yearbook. Wants to travel with Little Richard and Long Tall Sally is this important seminal song in the Beatles History that is like this through line, through all their career. So it's fascinating. They're doing this, Dylan's doing this. And there's an inevitability that they've got to connect. They have got to converge at some point as they're developing as artists. Paul's initial disdain, the folk crap. When Mike, his brother, brings home the first Bob Dylan album. It's just all very, very fascinating. So I can go through bit by bit in the book. It's a fun read. And you end it with this wonderful recent inter with Paul about Dillard. Which is a fantastic coda PS to the book. But to sort of put the big questions out there. I'm sure you've given us a lot of thought as a thesis. Sort of suggested itself as you were researching this and putting it together. And sort of formulating your take on the whole thing. Is there a specific way? You see, Dylan's artistic trajectory would have been different absent the Beatles, and vice versa. How different if there was no Bob Dylan, would the Beatles career have unfolded? So much was their impact on each other? Is that something you've given any thought to?

Jim Windolf (8:56)

Yeah, I have given a lot of thought to that. I guess, like, to boil down my thesis. They had more to do with each other than people generally know, even their fans. So that's really the thing I was after. And then just to show how they were in this constant dialogue. It often showed up in the music. Sometimes it didn't. There are plenty of songs the Beatles would have written if, even after becoming Dylan fans. That just would have poured out of them without having met Dylan. But I think in both cases, they wrote songs, conducted themselves as performers. And, you know, did things that they wouldn't have done if they hadn't met. Not only met each other, but fallen for each other's music. Very hard. That's one thing Dylan. It's hard for us to remember now. But people, you know, your listeners have probably seen this early footage of, like, when I think it's CBS News and maybe ABC News. They have this footage of when the Beatles are. It's before the Beatles have broken in the US but there are a few media reports and some film footage comes over that they. They kind of make mild fun of. They're like, oh, rock and roll is coming back. You know, in Liverpool, of all places. You know, in England. How quaint. Because people thought rock and roll was dead in a lot of ways. And I think Dylan, not so much that he felt it was rock and roll was dead, but he Just thought at age 18, he couldn't say what he needed to say in his lyrics in the format of rock and roll. Even though he loved Little Richard and Chuck Berry and all those guys. When he heard Woody Guthrie or Odetta singing about death and injustice and despair in a way that went beyond the lyrics of the rock and roll guys he loved so much, he just switched teams. And I think we've all had that. Like, I've had phases as a music fan where the other stuff is the enemy. Suddenly, for a while now, I'm a punk, you know, now I'm whatever. And I think as you get older, you. You know, for me, anyway, I like all genres. And I don't see music as in a, you know, one tribe and a fight with another. It doesn't really matter, but I think so. When Dylan finally fell for the beatles In 2.64, you know, it's funny he used these two words. He says they were valid and outrageous. Talking about that moment. He says they were pointing the direction where music had to go. But I think he realized, oh, they've revitalized rock and roll. And made it into something valid, like legitimate again. In other words, he can use it for what he needs to say. And not his very next recording session, but the one after that is when he records Subterranean Homesick Blues. And that's really when he goes electric. That's 10 months before Newport.

Robert Rodriguez (11:37)

Right.

Jim Windolf (11:38)

So, I mean, we do come back kind of to the cliched understanding that the Beatles helped Dylan go rock and roll. Which it turns out, yes, that's true, but it's the reasons for it and why and the. And I tried to get into the depth of what that really meant. He's going from the cloistered world of folk music to this pop marketplace that all the folk people despise. And he himself probably looked down upon in some way. But the Beatles gave him permission to do that. And so everything he does after that, pretty much, I think the Beatles have a say in. In some way. And then specifically he writes, it wasn't released at the time. But when he's looking for a follow up hit to like a Rolling Stone, he writes, I want to be your lover. Which is a rewrite of I want to be your man. So that's a very particular case of him doing a rewrite of a Beatles song. And not to go on and on, but the Beatles, I think just the direction of their songwriting. They wrote more nuanced, in a more nuanced way, a more reflective way. And I think even McCartney challenged himself to write his songs. Don't sound like Dylan's songs, you know. Some of Lennon's songs do. But I think in the principles behind them, McCartney was making sure he avoided, as much as he could, cliched phrases. And also he didn't want to have the same old scenarios in his songs. So something like Drive My Car is an elaborate story that goes beyond the kind of simpler scenarios of I Saw Her Standing there and the songs that came before it.

Robert Rodriguez (13:29)

Right, Right. It's the same way the Beatles gave Dylan permission to go beyond the paradigm he'd been working to that point. It worked both ways, for sure. What's astonishing to me was reading in your book how rigid the expectations were at the onset, or even a few years in. You talk about the singer's club pushing back on Dylan, going beyond the traditional folk paradigm and trying to do something new and how angry it made them. And then you've got Come Rubber Soul, which is considered by most people a real artistic breakthrough. Maureen Cleave, of all people, kind of dissing them for trying to be too much all at once. It's astonishing to me how that sort of backwards mentality. It's like you should be welcoming innovation. This was the 60s, and unlike now, where rehash is welcome, make something sound good that we're familiar and comfortable with. You were cheering on somebody to lead the way. That's what these guys are pushing against, which is really fascinating to examine. It's hard from our distance to recognize the world they were creating in. And what a challenge it would have been to go against people that are wanting you to stay in your comfort zone. It's really their comfort zone.

Jim Windolf (14:48)

Yeah. It's funny that you bring up the Maureen Cleaves stuff. Because I think she's a really great writer and really perceptive about the Beatles. And she really understood them. And when Rever's Soul comes out, that's what her review, she says, they have tried to do too much, which I love. And then even a year before that, when Beatles For Sale came out, she could sense she was so perceptive that she saw that the mood was changing even with Beatles For Sale. And she writes in her review of that one, one would hope that John Lennon ceases to be so influenced by Bob Dylan soon. You know, so she can feel them moving away from the moptop idea even then with, like, Babies in Black and stuff. And I can kind of understand it in a way. Cause the Beatles were so fun and zesty. And if you really love the Beatles of 63. You can feel them. Oh, no. It's almost like they're losing their innocence. And someone like Maureen Cleave was a little older, maybe. She loved that freshness that they brought. And she can feel them becoming more adult and melancholy. And it's almost like. It's like Adam and Eve leaving the Garden of Eden or something, you know, it's kind of. In a way, it is sad. I can see what they mean. Or even, like, we can think of it in my own teenage fandom. Like, when Talking Heads moved on from the simplicity of, like, Talking Heads 77. To suddenly three albums later, there are 15 people on stage and it's like, what the hell, you know? And I loved that. I loved that change. But in a way, the simplicity of. All the punk bands did that same thing where they started out so direct and easy. And then suddenly the Clash is making Sandinista, you know. And it's like, in a way, like, you gain something, but you do lose that original hard. The Beatles also gave up, you know, when they went that rubber soul direction. So I kind of understand it. Yeah.

Robert Rodriguez (16:39)

Actually, it reminds me of all the acts that I liked from the beginning. That it seemed like once they achieved the breakthrough success, now everybody likes them. And probably for the wrong reasons. They kind of lost me. I'm thinking of an RM. I'm thinking of U2, Peter Gabriel, all these acts that I loved at the beginning, first three albums or so. And now. Now it's all this, you know, it's like the wrong people are getting into them for the wrong reasons. You've kind of wrecked it.

Jim Windolf (17:07)

Yeah, isn't it? It's hard to remember now, but I remember. I remember when signed with a major label and what a betrayal that was. You know what I mean? Now. Now, like, that. That idea is no longer in the air, you know, when they went from IRS to Warner Brothers. And I remember having to, like, get used to this new REM as, like, wow, they have a number eight hit. Because I had that, you know, I was a college radio DJ playing Chronic Town on my show, you know, that kind of stuff. And saw them on their very first tour.

Robert Rodriguez (17:35)

But.

Jim Windolf (17:36)

So all groups go through that. You also mentioned the Singers Club, which was an association of fans and musicians in England in 60 in the early 60s. And their rules were so strict about what folk music should be. And Dylan violated, two years before he got offender Stratocaster. He was. He violated their notion of what folk music should be. And. And part of it was they saw. If you were a folk singer. It meant that basically you didn't write new stuff, for one thing. But when you sang the old songs, you didn't put your own personality forward. You were like a custodian of this old stuff. And you just. You were almost supposed to neutrally present it as if you were a living museum. And Dylan was so full of personality and life. And also throwing his own interpretations into things, just the way he did it, that he offended most of these people. Hardline leftists, many of them members of the Communist Party in Britain. And they thought that folk music had to exalt, like, factory workers and farmers and stuff. And if Dylan was using it to make himself an interesting person or a star, they found that distasteful. So he got a lot of guff before he was famous. So that's late, I believe. Late 62, early 63. One thing I do in the book is write about parallel tracks. And I thought it was so funny that on the same night, Dylan and the Beatles are playing like, 30 miles apart. Of course they don't know it. It's before they've even met. And just to get a glimpse of them before they're famous and have to, like, still persuade an audience to like them is just kind of cool to see.

Robert Rodriguez (19:14)

It really is. It's such an insightful way of presenting what would normally be a familiar story. Maybe Dylan less so to this audience, but the Beatles, for sure. You track any number of insightful things that manifest in their music. Strictly through the chronology and knowing what's going on in their sort of parallel paths. We've known the story of Dylan hearing I Want to hold you'd hand in Colorado while he's on the road. And that suddenly blows his mind wide open, the distance and bubblegum stuff. And it's interesting, if he would've used the term bubblegum, he might have said teeny bobber. Cause I think bubblegum came along a little bit later.

Jim Windolf (19:51)

He said both.

Robert Rodriguez (19:52)

Yeah, yeah. But the two words you key in on, valid and outrageous. There's so much to unpack there. He says so much with an economy of words. It's like the skiffle thing happening in England. And kids picking up guitars and they're hearing rock around the clock. So that turns them on to rock and roll. But then they see Elvis, and suddenly it's like the universe has just exploded the way you present it. I hear that as sort of the Dylan equivalent. Once he gave a proper listen to I want to hold you'd hand. And suddenly he could see whatever he thought of the future. It's all been blown up. There's so many more possibilities that he hadn't even imagined before this moment. Because something that he might have been dismissive before. Maybe because of the people that are embracing it. Are people he doesn't take seriously. But he can hear it and he can drill down into this is what makes this special. Forget about the yeah, yeah, yeah. Forget about the screaming girl. There's something amazing going on here that I'd never even considered before. And this is where the music had to go.

Jim Windolf (20:56)

Yep. Yeah, that's totally right. I think Dylan, his girlfriend at the time, Sue. It's written like Suze Rotolo, but she pronounced it Susie Rodolo. I found out anyway, so Susie said that she and Dylan did listen to pop radio in their apartment when they were Dylan's 19, 20. She's 17, she's 18 19. He's 20, 21. So at home he was still listening to, like, W I N S wabc pop radio. Which is funny to me. 777 wabc. Here's the wabc pickhead of the week. Freddie cannon to sing. So I think he was keeping up. And the thing that I think he heard. He gave this great interview with Anthony Scaduto in 1970. Where he talked about why he came to like the Beatles. And if you really look at what he's saying in there. Where he talks about their outrageous chords and this other stuff. I think he noticed. What few critics saw at the time. Was that rock and roll hadn't really died. When Elvis went in the army. And Little Richard embraced religion and Chuck Berry was arrested. That's kind of the myth. And then the myth is that they left the stage. And we were stuck with Fabian and Annette Funicello and all that stuff. But the real story is that. No, it kept developing. And it was Marvin Gaye's first records. And the Marvelettes and the Ronettes and all this stuff. And there was still great music going on. And that's. To me, the really interesting thing about the Beatles was in those. You know, The Beatles of 62. Is that they. They still had what we might think of as rockabilly in their music. But they. They combined it with this first wave of early 60s R&B. And brought those two things together which made. They weren't just rehashing 50s rock and roll. It was something completely different. And. And I think Dylan realized, oh, they've combined two unexpected things. To take rock and roll to another place musically. It didn't have to just be the 1 4, 5 of Little Richard or whatever. It was something stranger musically. And so therefore it was like this whole genre is more flexible than he might have thought. That's. That's kind of what I read into what he's saying. So it's like you can do something with this, you know, Even if he doesn't know as many chords as George Harrison at the time. But he eventually will.

Robert Rodriguez (23:46)

Yeah, absolutely. The Beatles are retaining that energy of the first wave of rock and roll, but they're certainly not averse to brill building compositions or aspiring to be the golf and king of England. They recognize good music when they see it wherever it comes from. So the Beatles and Dylan have this very much in common. They're not wearing blinders, they're taking everything. They're cultural omnivores, as somebody put it on my show recently, which is to their credit. And that's where great art comes from. Now, one thing I would point to as a. What I perceive as a fundamental difference between them is that it seems with Dylan, when he would record something, it's almost like a blueprint for the song that will ever be evolving going forward. It's not done. It takes on life as he performs it before an audience in that situation. Whereas the Beatles would record something perfect, that recording, and then go out before an audience and try to replicate the record. It wasn't like they were reinventing it or stretching it out or doing completely whole different arrangements, unlike Dylan. And I find that a very interesting departure between their artistic styles.

Jim Windolf (24:57)

Yeah, that's really interesting. And it continues to the present day, basically, where Paul is on the road now, recreating the. Basically the arrangements that he came up with when he wrote and recorded those songs. And Dylan continues to depart from the original blueprint of those songs as to the frustration of some of his fans. Although I've seen a lot of those shows, it makes those songs alive because at least you know, he means it because he's not just doing it by work. Yeah, yeah, exactly right.

Robert Rodriguez (25:26)

And it's funny because in your interview with Paul at the back of the book, he's. He's mindful of it. He talks about he might have done Like a Rolling Stone, I don't know.

Jim Windolf (25:33)

Yeah, it is how different they are as composers. Because I think especially Paul and Dylan have this difference where McCartney hears the whole arrangement in his head. And that's why he became, in a way, the Beatles arranger, I think, with George Martin, because he can hear the whole record. And I don't think Lennon could hear the Whole record when he wrote a song he just heard. That's why he was often so frustrated with how things came out, even if they came out beautifully, because he wasn't quite sure what he heard. And maybe he was the type that needed to go on the road and explore the song in all different permutations. Or like Dylan, he may not have seen a song as being a fixed thing. You know, it's like, here's the basics of this song and you can play it any way you want for the next 12 years, you know, or something like that. But they did have a huge difference in that way. I think it. It's also something that occurred to me that in their approach to live concerts, because Dylan from the start, you know, from Newport, he's willing to get booed. And even after he gets booed there, which I think surprised him when he went electric, he continued to throw himself out there and be booed if that's what had to happen. And so to him a concert was an artistic expression. The Beatles were part of this package tour when they toured North America three different times. And they're, you know, they always went on fourth or fifth or sixth. And there were some really corny acts that they followed, you know, like, I think they're called the Discotheque Dancers who just come out on stage and like dance, dance as King Curtis. Like you have the great King Curtis leading kind of like a show band and they're dancing to like an instrumental version of Camp Me Love as the opening act for the Beatles. Like Dylan would never have allowed that kind of thing to go on before him. But the Beatles kind of had a foot in vaudeville still or something weird. And I just don't think it occurred to them. Like I wish they had thought to train, like we're going to train our audience, that they're going to come and we're going to play a 90 minute show and it's what we want to play and that's it. But I think they were freaked out by the screaming and the huge crowds and being chased and all that stuff. And the way Brian Epstein set things up, that it just didn't really occur to them to be like, we're gonna give a show that's an artistic performance. Instead they just did their half hour set recreating as best they could what was on the record. Now maybe when they're talking about what's that Chalk Farm Club or the Roundhouse or things like that, you know, maybe, maybe that's in the back of at least Paul's mind that they're gonna actually do a real show, yet they never quite got there. The closest they get is when they go solo, I guess, you know.

Robert Rodriguez (28:11)

So, yeah, George, actually. And I wonder if that was a Dylan influence. When you see the Dark horse tour of 74, he is very much stepping out of that Beatle paradigm in terms of stretching out performances. Every musician on stage gets to solo. He's breaking away from the recorded arrangements of things, which is to his credit. You like to see them trying new things. It's just interesting that they have completely different approaches in some ways, but still admire and love and respect each other as artists, which is cool. One of the things that you do talk about is it's clear that Lennon runs very hot and cold on Dylan.

Jim Windolf (28:54)

Yeah.

Robert Rodriguez (28:54)

The mercurial nature of Lennon might just be what that's all a reflection of. Not anything specific to Bob, but I think most fans were well aware of on Blonde on Blonde, the track Fourth Time around, as a rejoinder to Norwegian Wood, which everybody saw as Dylan esque very vividly. So, not unlike you've got to hide your love away or I'm a loser until reading your book. It never occurred to me that Hard Day's Night was perceived as, at least in John's head, as Dylan esque because it's so beatified in its arrangement. But talk a little bit about Fourth Time around and how it really seemed to be a bone of contention.

Jim Windolf (29:33)

So that's a song that Dylan wrote and recorded a few months after he heard Norwegian Wood on Rubber Soul. So he recorded that in Nashville in February 66. And even the night he recorded it, Al Cooper, who was one of the musicians that night, said, bob, it sounds so much like Norwegian Wood. The thing that Dylan said, which in this interview, like, has confused people so much to the present day that, like, just to tease out the chronology of, like, when did Bob write Fourth Time Around? Was it really in reaction to the Beatles? You know, there are a lot of Dylan fans who thought, no, Bob wrote Fourth Time around first and Lennon ripped him off. But that's not really true. It's. This is pretty settled. Like, we know the day that he wrote the song was that people saw him writing it on 2-14-66. Anyway, Dylan says, no, I'm afraid Norwegian Wood sounds so much like one of my songs that I feel I must reclaim it, or something like that. And then in May, he plays it for the Beatles in those same Mayfair hotel suite listening sessions that they have where Paul says that Dylan said he didn't Want to be cute anymore. But they played Fourth Time around, you know, just try to carefully trace this stuff, you know. Lennon, two years later gives an interview about that night and he says Dylan said, what do you think? And Lennon recalled saying, I don't like it, you know, so. So the thing that's funny is like they didn't have the word trolling back then, the way we use it now. But I think Dylan's trolling the Beatles and trolling Lennon by writing Fourth Time Around. And he kept up with stuff, you know, like in the movie Don't Look Back. He's constantly reading Melody Maker and all this stuff. So I think he was aware that Lennon in the Melody Maker interview said he pointed out two songs that he said were influenced by Dylan, I'm a Loser and A Hard Day's Night, which also surprised me. Cause it doesn't sound Dylan y to me at all. But Lennon said so then after that he records you've got to hide your love away. And then he records Norwegian Wood. And so there's four. So Dylan calls the song Fourth Time Around. Those words do not appear in the lyrics. It's a signal to, you've done it four times and that's it.

Robert Rodriguez (31:39)

I got your number, buddy.

Jim Windolf (31:40)

Yeah, yeah. So that leads to that. People may know the limo ride footage. And I think I have kind of. I hope I've figured out what's really going on in that conversation is I think people look at that and think, oh, it's just two rock stars out of their minds on drugs or drinking or something, kind of being jerk offs. But I think Dylan had a purpose in that conversation, which was he wanted to get this issue hashed out, like he wanted to get it on the table. Like Lennon, you've been ripping me off and what do you have to say about it? And that's what he's leading up to. And Lennon very skillfully and hilariously gets out of it by just doing some bits that crack everybody up and he gets off the hook. So Dylan may have been angry about that, you know, feeling that Lennon was getting too close to his territory. But at the same time, I think they liked each other a lot. Dylan did the end of that limo ride and Lennon helped him up to his hotel suite and stood there with DA Pennebaker watching him in the bed and didn't leave. Pennebaker's quote is from that moment. He's like, john could have bolted in case something happened. Meaning like an overdose or something, I suppose he says, but he adored Dylan and Vice versa. And he hung in there. And then that night when Dylan plays the Royal Albert hall. And this was like a little thing I was happy to kind of nail down because I think there's been confusion about if all four Beatles saw him with the band at the Royal Albert Hall. And McCartney said. Told me he had a clear memory of being there. Because I'd seen printed reports that John and George were there, but not all four, because we know all four were there in 65. But McCartney had a firm memory of it. I found another report of I forget what some music publication were reported with seated right in front of them. And he noticed all four Beatles were there that night. And so when Dylan's getting heckled that night, the Beatles are all screaming like, shut up. You know, leave him alone. So they're still on his side.

Robert Rodriguez (33:33)

Uh huh. It's great stuff. That was one of the most fascinating parts of the book for me because I think a lot of us as fans are familiar with various length clips of John and Dylan in the back of the limo from that film. And this is the first time I was aware of the extended cut. And they're talking explicitly about fourth time around. And you mentioned it's in the book that when they're having that little listening session at the Mayfair and John makes the aside, it should be published by Northern Songs or something like that. That's fantastic. And Dylan's say that to my face. You know.

Jim Windolf (34:07)

Yeah, exactly.

Robert Rodriguez (34:08)

Say that again. I dare you to say that again. Wow. It humanizes them in a way that we're not accustomed to because you see them in this deity like status. But it's like they're very territorial about their own stuff. Even after all the success to that point. It's just fascinating.

Jim Windolf (34:23)

And it's funny that they're both funny in different ways, Lennon and Dylan. I mean, it's a great line that Lennon has. So he's listening the fourth time around and he turns to Paul and he says, this ought to be in Northern Songs, thinking he's gonna get away with it. Which is a very funny line. And then Dylan doesn't know and he's like, what's Northern Songs? And Lennon does not answer him. So it's three or four weeks later, they're in the limo and then Dylan said, what's the name of your song? Publishing company, man. You know, he's like, I didn't know what you're talking about. I had to ask Robbie. And like Lennon's like, didn't we tell you? He's like, no, no, you didn't tell me, man. And like, he has to like force it out of him. He has to force Lennon to say the words northern songs. And then once he does, like Lennon's, Dylan's really ready to go to town. But yeah, it's a really. It's a tense moment, but kind of a funny moment too.

Robert Rodriguez (35:13)

I think it's also interesting how there was a very conscious sort of, we're not going to meet Dylan till there's parody.

Jim Windolf (35:21)

Yeah.

Robert Rodriguez (35:21)

What was the term? Ego equals or something like that.

Jim Windolf (35:24)

Yeah, yeah.

Robert Rodriguez (35:25)

And it's like they felt both sides are in awe of each other for different reasons, but the Beatles do not agree to meet him up until they reach the point where, okay, now we can make sure that we're where we should be, so we're equal ego wise or something like that.

Jim Windolf (35:39)

Yeah.

Robert Rodriguez (35:40)

Only then does it happen.

Jim Windolf (35:41)

Yeah, it's very funny because Lennon says he doesn't feel comfortable meeting him. He tells this journalist Al Aronowitz, until they are ego equals. Which is funny because the Beatles were way more famous than Dylan at the time, you know, 64 or 65. But Lennon was still kind of in awe of Dylan right from the start of becoming a fan of his. And then it works the other way too, because I always think it's funny that when Dylan did meet them that night at the Delmonico Hotel, which is a story that all Beatles fans know, probably, you know, just looking into it, he had to drive down from Woodstock, pick up his friend Al Aranowitz in New Jersey, like in Berkeley Heights, New Jersey, then drive into Manhattan, cross town to the east side, move up, you know, parking. So it's like a five hour drive. Then he had to sit in the car, parked car, while Al Aronowitz went to the hotel to go check with like Derek and Neil Aspinall, you know, about if everything was set up. So Dylan is kind of acting like a supplicant for a change, you know, where he's got to wait his turn and go in and all that stuff. And amazingly, this photographer who photographed the Beatles, a lot of Dylan. Yeah, he took a picture of Dylan outside the hotel and didn't realize that he had until 40 years later when he was looking through the contact sheets. It's a great photo of Dylan arriving outside the hotel that night with Al Aronowitz and Neil Aspinall and his right hand man, Victor Maimudis. So that's such a cool shot and

Robert Rodriguez (37:07)

that shows a lot, that whole episode. You flesh it out so beautifully. And bring it to life and just the dialogue and the hilarity that ensued once they got high and the fact that Dylan has to be ushered in past Peter, Paul and Mary and the Kingston Trio and these people wanting to gain access that aren't able to. But the path is cleared for Dylan Aronowitz. It's interesting that he's one of these bridges between the Beatles and Dylan, such as the Byrds are, the Maisel's brothers are. There's these entities that are sort of the go betweens for both sides. And that was another thing. Once you lay it out and make it explicit, it's like, wow. Of course there it is in plain sight, all these connections that they had as they're making their way through the 60s and developing it as artists. This episode of Something about the Beatles is sponsored by Distrokid. Distrokid is a service that distributes music into the streaming platforms and also collects your royalty payments. It enables you to share with collaborators. It also has a feature that will polish up your recordings called Mixia. Basically, it is a way to get your best foot forward out there before a listening audience, making your music shine and get it into all the proper channels and make sure you get paid for your work. As a special offer to listeners of Something about the Beatles and I know there are many who are musicians, you could take advantage of this 30% off their first year subscription by going to distrokid.com that's D I S T R O K I D.com VIP/SATB Good for 30% off your first year of subscribing to Distrokid. So check it out if you are music makers and artists out there and make your music shine. The Distrokid app is available. Go to the app or Play Store to download it. This podcast is brought to you in part by Magical Mystery Camp Coming to Big Indian, New York just two and a half hours from New York City the week of Paul McCarty's 84th birthday, June 16th through the 19th. Featuring a number of special guests including the Fab Foe as well as singer, songwriter, musicians Martin Sexton, Gail Ann Dorsey, Cindy Cash Dollar and more. Now speaking of somebody who was there last year and I will be back again this year. It is a fabulous experience. If you love the Beatles, if you love music, if you love learning about the Beatles, if you play music yourself, it's got it all. Magical Mystery Camp features nightly musical performances, interactive workshops, jam sessions, chance to relax in a beautiful locale and lots more. If you're a musician or simply love the Beatles and want to learn more, this is a summer event for you. Check out magical mystery camp.com something. I thought it was interesting that you break it down the Get Back sessions. The Beatles are trawling through everybody's old catalogs. All these oldies, all these rock and roll standards that they're remembering better than their own compositions. And leading the list of people who they're at least playing fragments of is Dylan.

Jim Windolf (40:26)

We're probably right on Fast Volunteer together. You know, all of. Sam. From the West. Yeah, they played 15 Dylan songs. Not like they played them all the way through. Like I mentioned in the book. It's like any band in a room. Let's try this one, you know. And a lot of them are led by George, who's particularly at the height of his Dylan fandom at the time. But, yeah, they played 15 songs by Dylan. I think it's 13 by Chuck Berry was the runner up. So that's a fun list. I've sourced that in various places and listening to the tapes and that site, Beatles Bible helped with that and led me down to the right places. But, yeah, I was surprised. I mean, it's just the kind of thing you don't think of. And then in the same sessions where you know, you know that they did that. Then George does his little Dylan recital where he plays Mama, you've Been On My Mind. And that looks like the only time he's perfectly content while he's singing Dylan songs to his fellow Beatles. I'm only surprised they played I Want yout twice. And their version of I Want yout is pretty well formed. And George plays, like, a version on guitar of Al Cooper's keyboard riff, which is very nice. And then it's just a month later that the Beatles record I Want yout, she's so Heavy, which I think is truly no accident. I think it's Lennon's kind of rewrite of the Dylan song, and he's trolling Dylan a bit with his rewrite by saying, like, if you were really in love, you wouldn't use all that fancy poetry. You would just say, I want you. I want you so bad, it's driving me mad. And that would suffice because anything else is a lie when you're talking about strong emotion to Lennon at that point where he's boiling down his lyrics to the minimal. So, anyway, I think that's cool, but it's just a surprise. And Dylan kept playing Beatles songs in rehearsals, on stage. Recording more than people realize as well.

Robert Rodriguez (43:00)

Yeah. It's interesting in 1970, when you've got John and the Leonard remembers being called out on God. I don't believe in Zimmerman.

Jim Windolf (43:08)

Dylan is. Zimmerman is his name. You know, you see, I don't believe in Dylan, you know, And I think I don't believe in Tom Jones either, you know, in that way, you know, Zimmerman is his name. My name isn't John Beetle, it's John Lennon. Just like that. Yeah.

Robert Rodriguez (43:33)

Yeah, it almost. Well, I guess that's a pretty angry interview anyway, with a lot of people that he would later have to apologize to for the way he's just being so caustic toward them. You had earlier that year, George hanging with Dylan at CBS studios in New York. And that's when they cut that version of Yesterday that you mentioned to Paul.

Jim Windolf (43:53)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was funny that Paul. Either he'd forgotten or he never knew about it because he was surprised. He's like, so you're telling me that George was there and Bob recorded Yesterday? I'm like, yep, that's right. He's like, wow, I have to hear this and that kind of thing. So Paul was very happy to hear that. Why she had to go, I don't know. She wouldn't see. I said something wrong. Now I long for yesterday, Yesterday. And also the song Maureen, you know, which is the little lost song that was never completed. And if it had been completed, it would have been a Harrison, Dylan, McCartney composition. So this was when George was visiting Dylan at his home in Bearsville, New York, in Thanksgiving 68. And he wrote I'd have you anytime with Dylan. And another song they wrote but didn't complete. They called Maureen, naming it after Maureen Cox Starkey. I didn't have room in the book to say what happened later between George and Maureen. You know, just show his thingy Mabo. But it turned into that bit was the tune. I thought it would go off the rails. I'm like, do I have to bring that up here? Should I put in the footnote? We'll leave that for later. And anyway, they based it on the melody of Thingamabob, which was the first Apples release. An instrumental theme that McCartney wrote. It's a nice little song, you know, it's kind of in the vein of if you like Honey Pie on the White Album. That kind of stuff fits into that, the melody. And you know, George, weirdly, although he'd sometimes make fun of McCartney's pop side, George has that side that he loves the George Formby ukulele stuff and that his stuff Himself. So they made a start of a song, Maureen. And then after George left Dylan and Woodstock, he sent a note. And here are the chords to the song we were working on in case, you know, kind of in case he wants to finish the lyrics.

Robert Rodriguez (46:33)

Yeah.

Jim Windolf (46:33)

Sadly, it never got complete.

Robert Rodriguez (46:35)

That's interesting. I was gonna bring that up because that's something that we're familiar with having. Listen to the Nagras. He brings in this song called Maureen that he claims is a co write with Dylan. I did not know the thing of a Bob aspect till I read your book. And it's like, holy smokes.

Jim Windolf (46:49)

I'm surprised. I'm surprised if you didn't know something that was in there. So that's good to hear. Yeah.

Robert Rodriguez (46:54)

No, that's great. I learned a lot, even with familiar territory like this.

Jim Windolf (46:57)

Yeah, it was very confusing to me. It took me a while to figure that out. And I saw the letter that George wrote at the Dylan Archive in Tulsa. And just. And he's like. And the letter says, like, thingamabob is. And he's telling him the chords to Thingamabob. I'm like, why is he telling him the chords to Thingamabob? And I don't know. One thing led to another, and I realized those chords are the chords of Maureen, which I ran by a musician friend of mine. And like, oh, and that's Maureen. Find the bootleg of Maureen. And then you kind of compare things to each other. And that's why George is sending Dylan. At first I just thought he thought Dylan might be interested in the McCartney song thingamabob for some other reason. But the reason was they were working on a song with that progression.

Robert Rodriguez (47:38)

Fascinating. Did you get much of a sense in doing the research that as the Beatles are getting more and more elaborate in their production, that it was a turnoff for Bob and he runs in the opposite direction in 67. Once he's gotten past the motorcycle accident episode that you put a parent in the book. Because I think that's still something to this day. People are questioning for sure. But a timeout we can call it. Did he have an explicitly negative reaction or did he decide, well, if the Beatles are doing this, I must go in this direction? Give me as John Wesley Harding by the end of 67.

Jim Windolf (48:13)

Yeah, I mean, it's. All of those things that you just said are kind of so. Like his. So what we've known before I looked into this thing. What did Dylan think of Sergeant Pepper? Like, that's just a question. So in 78, he gave an interview where he found it overindulgent was what he said. And then in 68, he gives an interview to two friends of his for Sing out magazine. One of the few interviews he gave that year. And he says something like, well, the Beatles are using a lot of the latest recording studio technology. I don't know anything about that. I just record the song and that's it. So he's already, you know, he's talking there about Revolver. Cause sergeant Pepper isn't out yet, I don't think. Or it might have been out. But then I always think, like, don't forget what people's moms say. Because, you know, I always think, like, they'll blow up your spot real good. So there's an interview with Dylan's mother, who was at his house a lot in the late 60s. And she says, oh, Bob loves Sergeant Pepper. He loved Abuse. You know what I mean? So I kind of like to think. Think of, like, he was listening to sergeant Pepper and maybe his mom. Maybe Mom's right, you know, maybe Dylan loved it. And, like, when it became cool, the late 70s was the time where it was kind of cool to start saying, you know, the Beatles went too far with sergeant Pepper. That's, I think, when its reputation started going down a bit. And so, anyway, but it's true, he never went for the recording studio technology. He didn't really start using overdubs until, like. Well, he probably did when he did his Slow Train Coming album with. Because Jerry Wexler recorded that, you know, in 78 or 79. And then Dylan himself, more involved as a producer, if not name on the album Infidels. He started using overdubs a lot more than he had. So he was very suspicious of that kind of stuff and recording studio technology. And I think there was part of him that thought, like, it's artificial and detracts from the music and stuff like that. But on the other hand, I make this kind of nutty argument in the book that the Beatles, when they're doing sergeant Pepper and Dylan, when he's doing the Basement Tapes and John Wesley Harding stuff, were kind of after similar things. They both undertake their most ambitious project. Like Sgt. Pepper takes 700 hours and the Basement Tapes is over. It's really not one album, as people now know. It's like a hundred. It's a cycle of over 100 songs, some original, some not. And I think Dylan is taking inspiration from, like, the American past and what it means to be American. And that's, to me, kind of, after all, this time listening to sergeant Pepper a lot again, as I was thinking about it, I kind of think maybe it really is a concept album. I think that that idea has fallen out of fashion that like. No, it's not really a concept album. It is a portrait of British life past and present. Quite simply put, that kind of holds up. And so I think they were, in a weird way on parallel tracks, although going about it in very different ways at that time.

Robert Rodriguez (51:03)

It's interesting too that you trace beyond the Beatles that he is picking up on what's going on in the British Invasion and described the moment where he hears the Animals recording of House of the Rising Sun. And that's like one more step in his trail to going full blown electric and embracing having a band again. He's listening to top 40 radio. He's not blind to what's going on in a genre that you would think, oh, that's beneath me because I'm a serious literary writer. No, he's picking up on everything and he's going to repurpose whatever elements suit him going forward.

Jim Windolf (51:36)

Yeah, totally. And I didn't want to make the mistake of being like, it was only the Beatles that made Bob do it. So there are lots of little things. So it was the Animals was a big part. And he's kind of stepping little by little toward rock and roll. He did record with a rock band even before his first album came out. Not only as a high school kid, he performed with his high school rock and roll bands, but at first Columbia Records put him with a couple studio musicians for a session just to see. And his first single is called Mixed Up Confusion, which sounds like it could have come out on Sun Records, but they quickly deleted it. And Dylan was presented as completely like a solo folk troubadour.

Robert Rodriguez (52:13)

Do you have any idea why they made that decision at the time?

Jim Windolf (52:16)

I think that was probably 63, they put that out. I think that record, it sounds very much like a Johnny Cash record, except Bob Dylan singing it like one of his uptempo records. I think it might have been out of step with the times. So even if it, to our ears, you think like, oh, this is a pretty rockin little track that could be a hit maybe in 63. When be my Baby is a hit, you know, it's not a hit record. It sounds like it might have sounded really like a throwback to like the sound of 59 to people at the time, you know, so it's a funny track and it's like this little one off thing in the Dylan catalog. It sounds good. But Columbia put it out as a single. And it didn't do much. It didn't catch on. And I guess they decided, like, let's stick with the folk idea. That's what they signed him for in the first place. You know, that's why John Hammond liked him in the first place. So maybe they weren't quite sure what to do with him at first. That was like an experiment. And it's funny if mixed up. Confusion. The single had been a number five hit. Who knows what would have happened? But.

Robert Rodriguez (53:15)

Right, right. Did you make a mention of Karina Corita? There's a version of that with a backup band as well.

Jim Windolf (53:22)

Yeah. So that's. Funnily enough, that is on the Freewheel and Bob Dylan. The band is so gently recorded. And probably the band stuff is turned down on the faders. That you don't quite even notice it. There were, like, urban folk revival hits. Like by the Kingston Trio and stuff. That you'd hear little light drums in the background and stuff. It was okay as long as you didn't go too far with it. You know, to the folk world mind. So that's on Freewheel and Bob Dylan. And that's. And that's another little parallel that the Beatles played that Corina Karina themselves in their sets. And sometimes, I think, closed shows with it even. I think it was a big song for them.

Robert Rodriguez (53:57)

That's interesting because I'm unclear of the chronology of when Ray Peterson had the pop hit with it. If that would have been before or after.

Jim Windolf (54:05)

I think it's before. I think it's like 1960. Was that Ray Peterson version, which I really don't like. I like Big Joe Turner's version. I love the really old versions of it. But, yeah. So anyway, I think it was a hit before Dylan put his out. But I don't know if Dylan's is a remake of the Ray Peterson. In his own mind. He might have known the version by. There's this guy, Bo Carter and the Mississippi Sheiks from the twenties. Corina, Corina where you been so long? Corina, Corina why you been so long? I love you so

Robert Rodriguez (55:03)

oh, little darling

Jim Windolf (55:04)

And Dylan has recorded other Mississippi Sheep Sheiks songs on his later albums. Like he did the song Blood In My Eyes. Which was a Mississippi sheep song from 1928 or so. That he does a very nice. Nice version of.

Robert Rodriguez (55:17)

So doing the research, you start out from a certain position. Well, I'm going to trace this. I'm going to trace the parallels. I'M going to trace the interactions. And eventually, as you get more information, a thesis suggests itself and you start coming up with all this revelatory stuff. What was the most surprising thing you uncovered when doing the research for this book? Something you didn't see coming that made it to the book?

Jim Windolf (55:42)

I guess it's how many times Dylan played Beatles songs or kept going back to the Beatles in his own mind. There are little things like he's playing a show in Boone, North Carolina in 2004, and he changes the words to Tears of Rage to sing about Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields. In the first verse, it's like, why is he doing that? In 1990, he played a show in Vancouver and they heard the bootleg, the audience tape. He says, and I like to do this song for this very special occasion. He never says what the special occasion was. And he plays Nowhere man and it's like, what? And I thought like, is it Lennon's birthday or something? It's not. It's like I could not for the life of me figure out why this day he decided to play Nowhere man and never played it again. Right. And the fact that he recorded Things we said today, which I think, think does owe something to this Bob Dylan song called Bob Dylan's Dream. I think it's McCartney listening to that freewheeling Bob Dylan at the time. And those songs have a lot in common. So I think it's interesting that Dylan recorded that. Some Dylan fans think that he's again trolling the Beatles with his version of Yesterday. But I disagree. When I hear that song, I hear him just thinking of like, Yesterday is like an all time classic song. And I'm gonna. Here's my version. You know, it's like to Dylan, he treats it like a folk song. It's not really so grand and doesn't need a fancy treatment. I can just do it like a. I'm doing Sunny side of the street or something like that. And then he plays Come Together with Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers in a rehearsal in 1985, which is recorded and not too bad. He kept trying. He does a. Not such a great Here Comes the Sun one time in concert when George is in the audience in England in the 80s, it doesn't come off too great the day that he visited Lennon's home in 2009, which is another thing that the fact that he would do that that night he played something in Liverpool at the Liverpool Echo Arena. So it's not like. I think some people think, like, oh, for a couple years, Dylan was into the Beatles. It's like a lifelong thing with him. And I was going to say it ends with Roll on John, which he wrote in 2011 and put out in 2013, I think. But then again, on his last album, on Murder Must Foul, he mentions the Beatles again. So I mean, just a thread that runs through his work. It's strong and it's there. And by the way, Dylan rarely collaborates with another songwriter. He did the album Desire with a guy, Jacques Levy. And once in a while he does it. George was his co writer, you know, on a lot of songs. And the funny thing is, when they first wrote together at that Thanksgiving, I mentioned before, before that Dylan, as far as I've been able to tell, when he did co write with members of the band, he handed them the lyrics and said, okay, I'm out of melodies. Can you guys come up with something? But with George, they sat together with guitars and wrote like Lennon McCartney, eyeball to eyeball sessions. So that's kind of. You have to be vulnerable to do that with somebody to like. You have to let your guard down. And I think George had such a nice approach to Dylan that probably the fact that he was a fan and presented himself as kind of like he didn't try to one up Dylan in his presence. And so Dylan felt at ease around him and then so they wrote together a real collaboration. So that's one of Dylan's few co writers.

Robert Rodriguez (59:00)

So yeah, I found that interesting because you have that happening and it gives George such a lift to get that validation that he's not getting within his own organization. Rolling into January 69, they're trotting out 15 different Dylan songs to varying degrees. That wonderful moment you alluded to, Mama, you've been on my mind the day before he walks out of the sessions where he's doing that little Dylan ask medley. Then it gets floated. The Beatles and company of expanding the group, bringing in Billy Preston as a fifth member. And I think at that juncture George goes in Bob Dylan. Do you think that even as a one off there was any possibility, had the Beatles been open to it, that Dylan would have wanted further collaboration with them? Or do you see them as being two distinct paths and maybe he didn't want to get too close, he wanted to keep an arm's length distance?

Jim Windolf (59:54)

No, I think at that time, I think Lennon says, Billy Preston, I want to make him an official member and we're going to be called Beatles and Company. And George says, and if I asked Bob and he would, he would say yes, too. To be in the Beatles. We get them all in here. And then McCartney. One of the funniest things he said ever. It's bad enough with four. Then they laugh, and then the idea's over. But it's funny because the next year, when Dylan comes back to England to play the Isle of Wight, he's hilarious in these interviews. He gives a press conference. It's almost like performance art. He's acting like he's Gary cooper in some 1940s movie. He's like the straightest guy you've ever seen. And they say, do you think there'll be a drug problem at the show? And he says, I certainly hope not, you know, and all this stuff. But he does say in that same interview, the Beatles have asked me to jam with them, and I'd be interested in doing that now. Was he just hyping his concert because they needed to sell more tickets? I don't think so. I think he was open to it at the time if it was like a real session. It's funny because it's like we're talking about talking heads before. There wasn't this idea back then. I think it was more binary. It's like either your band is functioning or else you're broken up and there's no in between. They didn't know back then that, like, you know, for this album we're gonna have eight more members. And that's what we are this time around. You know what I mean? It's like. I think Lennon was. That's what Plastic Ono Band means. The word plastic. I think we think of it as meaning artificial, but it means flexible. Back then it meant plastic. It can be anything, right? So I think that's why Lennon formed the Plastic Ono Band. The members can revolve like Steely Dan or something like that. It doesn't. Why does it have to be just these four guys, you know, or whatever? So I think they didn't quite get there, but I think they were getting close to that. The Beatles could be Beatles and Company. It could be like a loose organization. Instead of four moptops, you know, like doing all this press and getting screamed at all around the world. You know, it could be something else, a loose conglomeration, and they just didn't quite get there. You know, George gets there with George Harrison and Friends is how he builds the Bangladesh album, you know, and that kind of stuff. But, you know, I think if they had gotten to that Beatles and Friends, Beatles and Company thing for real, I think Dylan would have been in that circle for sure. And I think he would have been open to it.

Robert Rodriguez (62:03)

It is interesting that for having successfully put together a composition in 68. And you get this sort of Dylan esque vibe throughout All Things Must Pass, even without him physically being at the sessions. Certainly his specter is sort of hanging over the thing. With George's fandom on clear display, was it Keltner that made the quote? George quotes Dylan like some people quote scripture.

Jim Windolf (62:29)

Tom Petty's yeah, yeah, okay.

Robert Rodriguez (62:31)

It's like his fandom is on his sleeve at all times that it took them so long to finally put together a musical ensemble. And even that seemed completely by accident when they do the Wilburys. Like it wasn't something they had a design on. It just happened to fall that way. Because Dylan had a studio at his house.

Jim Windolf (62:49)

Yeah, that's right. And also it's George's. We think about George's character. It's really interesting because he's, you know, not to go with the cliche of the quiet Beatle, but he is kind of quiet compared to Lennon, for instance, in some ways. I mean, he could talk a lot, of course, and he was funny, but he has this kind of quiet persistence. And it's the same when he joined the Beatles. Like John talks about him hanging around and like following him and Cynthia on their dates. And like he's just always there. There he is again with the guitar. He's like a 15 year old kid. And like until he's finally brought into the group, I think he's just like. He could make himself a pest, but I think he could do it in a charming way. And I think that's what he did with Dylan where he's just always like putting himself at Dylan's doorstep and he maintained that relationship. Like Dylan at that time wasn't reaching out to George as much. Although it's funny, Dylan really reaches out to George. And throughout the 80s, like when Dylan is on tour, he sends a note like, I'll be at this concert. Will you come on stage with us? You know, so it's not all one sided, but I think George very skillfully. He's like a social connector in a way you could see, like that kind of person where he's very inclusive. So it is the fact that Dylan had the studio at his garage in Malibu. But also George maintained that relationship and was charming enough to get Dylan to say yes to something that might have annoyed him. And suddenly Jeff Lynn is at your house, you know, So I think it was George's political skill in a Way you could put it that way, that helped the Traveling Wilburys come to be and maintaining that friendship with Dylan.

Robert Rodriguez (64:19)

Do you think if Roy Orbison hadn't died, they might have kept it going? But that kind of took the wind out of their sails.

Jim Windolf (64:25)

I think it exhausted Dylan. I think that's part of why it didn't keep going. And George, I think, was done with being a public person after that, because he just did his Japan tour with Clapton and that was really it for him. So the Wilbury's first album was with Orbison. Then he died as they were promoting it. So even one of the videos they made, there's, like. People might remember the empty rocking chair when Roy Orbison sings that Dan is a rocking chair with nobody in it rocking during an Orbison part. And they did make a second album that's kind of forgotten now, although it also sold. It was platinum at the time. And I liked that second album, and Roy Orbison's not on it, so they did go back one more time. But I wish there'd been a tour. It seems like they talked about it once in a while, but couldn't get it together. Dylan at that point was. That's the start of the Neverending Tour. It happens when he's with the Wilburys and he decides, I'm gonna change how I go out, how I run my career. He'd been touring with Tom Petty and the heartbreakers for, like, 18 months, and now he just goes out with a trio and plays 70 to 100 gigs a year. And so at the time when the Wilburys could have toured, Dylan is on the road a lot. And so it just never worked out.

Robert Rodriguez (65:35)

Yeah, he's a real road warrior. And I don't remember the chronology, but there was the Petty tour, there was the Grateful Dead tour. It's like he's not averse to working with fellow artists that aren't necessarily people he's worked with for decades. So it's interesting. And I just wonder if. Because there are accounts of Petty literally getting on his knees and begging George to take the Willburys out on the road, and he won't do it. And Bob certainly loved to tour, clearly. And I wonder if that would have given it new life again, doing the Dylan treatments of those songs in a live setting, surprising people, doing something different other than the preserved Embalmed record that we were given.

Jim Windolf (66:13)

Yeah, I still wish, when I've seen Dylan, I always wish that he would play a Wilbury song. As far as I know, he's only played Congratulations in concert. So he played that, I think twice. I think there's this famous show he played at. I forget the name of the club. It's like called Mr. Toad's Place in Connecticut. He famously did like a four hour show there one night in the early 90s, out of the blue. And he played Congratulations at that show.

Robert Rodriguez (66:38)

Amazing. He's got a lot of good tunes that spread out those Wilbury records. That would be wonderful to hear a lot for sure.

Jim Windolf (66:45)

Yeah.

Robert Rodriguez (66:45)

I think he's got a. A George Harrison tribute in him.

Jim Windolf (66:48)

Dylan.

Robert Rodriguez (66:49)

Yeah, he did the Lennon one.

Jim Windolf (66:51)

Yeah. Oh, that's right. No, I would guess that he's probably done with that kind of stuff by now. Yeah. There are rumors that he was recording or doing something at a studio in Poughkeepsie, New York a few months ago. So I wonder if he has new material that would be really interesting. You know, that rough and rowdy ways. It's now been five years. It went by quickly, but. So that's his last album, Skim Out. There's also such funny little things that pop up that you might have noticed. Like, you know, Alma Cogan, John Lennon's possible girlfriend at the time, she's there the night where they're all having a party together after one of Dylan's shows at the Savoy Hotel. And it's Allen Ginsberg, Alma Cogan, Dana Gillespie, what a crowd. But the fact that Alma cogan in the 50s recorded must be Santa, which then Dylan recorded on his Christmas album, it's just kind of. At least it amused me anyway.

Robert Rodriguez (67:42)

I love that you connect all these dots. You don't leave any stone unturned in this book, which is just fabulous. I love this kind of thing because there's so many things out there that are in plain sight. But until somebody does the work of like this connects to this, that's great. You know, I hadn't thought about a lot of the things that came up before that you put in the book, which is just wonderful. I love this stuff. Not everything is random. There's actually some order to some things. People knowing other people that are connected to this person. So it's all very cool.

Jim Windolf (68:10)

Yeah, it's just kind of funny to see things like. Even though it. I don't know what it means exactly, but when the Beatles are going through that first week of Beatlemania in New York and just kind of cross cut back and forth to Dylan, who's on a cross country road trip and what's going on in his life at that exact moment, until the Moment he decides the Beatles are great, which happens on that road trip. So it's just funny to see. And I found some stuff that I haven't really seen in any Beatles books. Like there's this magazine, photoplay in the 60s. There are two great articles in there about that first Beatles week in the U.S. one by Jill Hayworth, this actress, and another by Publicist who was handling her. And they talked about the Beatles almost. These guys tried to attack John Lennon at this club, the Headliner Club. I've never read the Headliner Club anecdote in the book. This stuff that I think got completely lost. It's, you know, it's kind of what happened to me was as I kind of look through the Beatles through a Dylan lens and vice versa, you end up going down different parts of their biography that hasn't made it into books before. So, like that whole stuff about us talking about the singers club in England in the early 60s. Because I wanted to get a good feel for Dylan in London. And that part is kind of glossed over in most Dylan books pretty quickly. But I think it was very important to Dylan. There was that whole British American exchange. That was a new thing back then.

Robert Rodriguez (69:27)

So we have. Yeah, yeah. I'd never heard that story before about John getting attacked that you just mentioned.

Jim Windolf (69:33)

Yeah, because that's buried in this. Basically a movie magazine that you probably assume is trash. But I think like your interview with Alison Bumstead, you realize that you look in some of these teen magazines and Hollywood magazines from back then, for one thing. They're surprisingly well written and well reported. And there are facts in there that are just overlooked and haven't made it into the record that we carry with us, you know, because I think they're overlooked and not for good reason. So there's still some stuff out there that's kind of forgotten from back then in the coverage.

Robert Rodriguez (70:05)

Yeah, some nuggets. And you're exactly right. I was thinking about that. And I was wondering as we're talking, how much teenset might have covered Dylan back in the day.

Jim Windolf (70:13)

I'm not aware. I just love the fact that they published photos of Dylan and teenset. There's that photo of him rolling a tire down the street. And the fact. The idea of Dylan as a teen idol, I just love. And there's one issue of Teen Set that has Dylan and Lennon on the COVID together. Not in the same photo, but side by side photos. And it's just very cool. He went into that world. He went into the pop marketplace, you know, and. And Like A Rolling Stone was the number one hit according to Cashbox, which I think had as good a chart as Billboard.

Robert Rodriguez (70:42)

So, yeah, it was blocked at number two in Billboard. Right. By Help, of course.

Jim Windolf (70:48)

Yeah. So it's amazing that Help and Like A Rolling Stone are just trading places that whole month with Mr. Tambourine man right behind.

Robert Rodriguez (70:54)

Yeah. There were so many things that became highlighted throughout your book. Dylan listening to British Invasion stuff and being impacted by it, for sure. And just this cross current of commonalities in people that they worked with that I didn't really think about. Before Al Aronowitz being a big one, I knew he'd written articles about the Beatles for Saturday Evening Post. But you normally when you read his name, you associate him with Dylan as one of those people around him. So I hadn't really thought about it that deeply, but of course. And we knew he was the guy that made the connection, bringing him physically to Delmonaco the evening of pot, August 64. So it's really cool to consider all this stuff as people listening to this show that have read absolutely everything. There's still new things to be surprised at and things to think about and see through a different lens. It's there. There's more to learn, more to understand, more to latch onto and hear things and see things differently now that you've got this awareness.

Jim Windolf (71:54)

Yeah. Another one of those people is Tiny Tim. That just made me laugh to like see how Dylan and the Beatles were both dealing with Tiny Tim at the very same time. Yeah, it's really, really funny. And that Tiny Tim in his shows at the Albert hall, he sang Nowhere man and Like A Rolling Stone back to back. That's part of his act back then. And then he's on the Beatles Christmas record. And yeah, right after. Right after he'd been. Yeah, right after he'd been hanging out with Dylan and Woodstock and appearing in a movie with Dylan that hasn't come out. I saw the footage of Tiny Tim, Dylan's house, at the Dylan Archive. It's really incredible doing all kinds of scenes for Dylan. I think Dylan liked the look of Tiny Tim. I mean, he's such an incredible character. Just so funny to think of Tiny Tim at Dylan's house for a week. And especially now that we know how much Dylan loves that old 1920s and 30s music that, you know, he even loved back then, but we just didn't know it at the time. Now that he's put out five albums of it, we do know the so called Sinatra albums. He knew that stuff that Tiny Tim was obsessed by. So that was funny.

Robert Rodriguez (72:56)

Cultural omnivore. Yeah, absolutely. So what was interesting to me was Dylan never made his own A Hard Day's Night. Yet you've got him appearing on tv, acting. I knew about Quest, the Canadian thing. I didn't know about the earlier one that you talk about in the book where he originally.

Jim Windolf (73:13)

The Liverpool trip.

Robert Rodriguez (73:15)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fascinating. And then just something I happen to know from other sources. I can't remember if you mentioned it in the book or not. Just. Cause all of it's melding how he had wanted to do some kind of comedy for HBO years later. That never ended up happening. So that's a whole other side of Bob Dylan, to coin a phrase, that most people I don't think are aware of. But it's pretty clear that he's got beyond his music, a performance aspect to him. That even the famous San Francisco press conference. I'm just a song and dance man. He's got that kind of presence, that kind of engagement with people. That's his equivalent of the jfk. We need money first. It's just a cool little exchange with the press. So that was revelatory to me.

Jim Windolf (74:04)

Yeah, I was amazed. I saw this footage at the Dylan Center. I don't think this footage has surfaced online like the limo ride does. It appears online and then it gets bashed down and pops back up. So he did this photo shoot at these warehouses in Liverpool on his 66 tour. So this is the tour where he's being booed a year after Don't Look Back. But he had another film crew with him to film this documentary, Eat the Document. And that's what the limo footage was from as well. And so as part of that, he goes down to the Building Clarence Warehouse on the waterfront on the Mersey. And the Beatles did a photo shoot at that exact same spot. Right after Ringo joined the band in October 62. Is that correct? Yeah. And those became. I think Dylan had to have been familiar with those photos. Cause that's the photo shoot where they're standing. Some of them by an abandoned car, some of them with a warehouse at their back. Dylan goes to that exact spot now he's staying at the Adelphi Hotel, which is three miles away. And to go there he had to do it purposely. And then he gets himself photographed there. People might have seen the photographs of him with Liverpool children sitting on a step. And there are like 10 kids. And it is a really incredible photo session. But his film crew is filming the photo session so it's a big deal. There's a photographer, film crew, the kids. And I think Dylan is almost doing like a parody of A Hard Day's Night. Cause he runs across a field like McCartney. And the camp by me loves St. Gwynne's and he's like throwing stuff. And I also think he's kind of taking Beatles territory for himself. It's very strange what he's doing in Liverpool because that same day he went with Bill Harry on a tour of Beatles sites in Liverpool. And he met the guy that supposedly punched George in the eye right before that October 1962 photo shoot. Who's a guy that Mark Lewison describes as a Liverpool tough. I forget his name, Dennis something. So it's just amazing that he got that deep into Beatles world. He also met Mike McCartney, hung out with Mike McCartney, like, it's not like Dylan. It wasn't a casual thing to him as Beatle, you call it fandom or obsession or whatever it was. So there he is at the Clarence Warehouse, standing in that abandoned lot. I went back there. You can't. You have to go there on purpose. So when I went to Liverpool, I went to that spot to see like. Like where Dylan went, where the Beatles went. And you have to go out of your way to get there. It's not an easy place to find. Except like every place nowadays, the warehouse next to the Clarence Warehouse is being transformed into luxury apartment buildings. It's like what happened in Lower Manhattan, where I live. You know, it's just like. It's the way the world. They're building a new soccer stadium right near there. So it's all gonna be developed, it looks like, you know, so probably that Clarence Warehouse where the Beatles stood in the abject war torn Liverpool photo is soon to be condos or something.

Robert Rodriguez (76:51)

God. Well, I'm glad you made it out there while it was still there. Yeah, that's good.

Jim Windolf (76:56)

Yeah.

Robert Rodriguez (76:56)

Was it Barry Feinstein that took those pictures?

Jim Windolf (76:59)

Yes, and he has a book of those photos. It's a shame, a lot of these. There's a lot of good information in these books by photographers. But they often cost like $128 for the book, you know. But it's one of those lovely coffee table books, beautiful pictures that it took.

Robert Rodriguez (77:14)

I've seen a few of them online and stuff. But Barry Feinstein, for anybody who doesn't know, is the guy who also shot All Things Must Pass Cover Cover, and the poster goes with it. Was married to Mary Travers.

Jim Windolf (77:23)

Yes. Yep. And did he take the Nashville Skyline Cover. Who took that? Which is. Dylan is holding the guitar George gave him and said he's doffing his cap as a thank you to George on the COVID of that album. So it's just. The connections are there. That's 69. That's amazing.

Robert Rodriguez (77:40)

It's funny, the preoccupation John has with the unsnapped cap that he sees Dylan wearing on the first album.

Jim Windolf (77:47)

Yeah. So that's.

Robert Rodriguez (77:48)

People are gonna think he copied Dylan.

Jim Windolf (77:50)

Yeah. That's in 64. There's that book, Michael Brown's Love youe Do the Beatles Progress. Yeah, it's a great, great. The first great book about the Beatles, I think. And Lennon tells him. Expresses his anxiety that people are gonna think he's ripping off Dylan's style with a cap. Dylan, four years later, writes a poem called John Lennon Hatt, which is about their mutual back and forth and the problems that go with it. So I found that poem in the archive as well, in Dylan's many notebooks. It's incredible to see his notebooks. And also you see things in there. Like Dylan saved the party invitation from the McCartneys to the party on the Queen Mary Ocean liner in the 70s. And also another one. And, you know. So the fact that he saved it, I think is significant. Like it meant something to Dylan.

Robert Rodriguez (78:32)

Sure.

Jim Windolf (78:33)

To hang onto that imitation. And there's different places where he's writing John Lennon's latest phone number in his notebook and that kind of stuff. And the notes he got postcards from George Harrison on vacation and. And the Bahamas and things like that through the 70s and well past the

Robert Rodriguez (78:48)

point you would think he would have any interest. You hear at the end of John Lennon's life when he talks about it in the Playboy interview. And then you hear stuff like Serve yourself and one moment talking to the press. I don't keep up with the Stones. I don't keep up with Wings. I don't keep up with my peers. Yes, you do, John, very much so. It's the complete opposite. The line when he heard Gotta serve Somebody. Oh, Bob wants to be a waiter now.

Jim Windolf (79:14)

Yeah, yeah. And then that's also when he records those audio diaries and he says, the great Dylan, Jagger and McCartney. Like, I forget falling down the mountainside with blood and mud in their nails. You know, that kind of stuff. So he's thinking about them a lot. But he was aghast when he heard Gotta Serve Somebody. And he says that he thought the words were crap, the singing was crap, it was awful. And yet it gets under his skin. So Much that he writes, Serve Yourself, which I love. And I think is because it's such a raw, kind of a horror show of a song. It reminds me of, like, you know, the Elvis Costello song I Want you is kind of like unhinged. And he's, like, going all over the place in that. In this song, and pushes himself. And he took it seriously because he recorded 12 versions of it that we know of that are recorded. And that took place over the course of a year that he did that. And I have to look into this, but I think he intended. He considered making it part of Double Fantasy, but decided against it. And I just kind of think it's out of keeping with the other songs that are on that album. It's like the old Lennon of plastic ono band, 1970 Lennon. It's very interesting that he wrote that song and then Dylan. That song never came out as an official release until 1998 on some archival Lennon box. But Dylan heard a bootleg in the 80s from somebody in his band, and he was asked about it. And he said, it didn't bother me. It intrigued me. Why did he care so much? Why did he react so strongly to my songs?

Robert Rodriguez (80:37)

And, yeah, touched a nerve.

Jim Windolf (80:39)

So I think, yeah, it touched a nerve with Lennon. And I think Dylan is able to kind of just take it like, huh, that's interesting that it bothered Lennon so much now. Also, I note in the book that a year before Gotta Serve Somebody, Lennon had his own brief born again phase, you know, and he wrote these two songs. Have you heard these songs, by the way? Amen. And there's another one. It's called, like, Talk With Jesus or something. I don't know if these are just known as titles or if people have heard these.

Robert Rodriguez (81:04)

I've not heard them. But I was aware that he, like, wrote to Billy Graham.

Jim Windolf (81:08)

Yeah, there's, I think, one of those guys, Pat Robertson or Billy Graham. Yeah, he wrote a letter. I'm not sure if that letter is legitimate. I remember looking into that. I think that bears some investigation. But there was a good account I found where he went to a church in Karazawa and met with the parishioners there when he was on a summer trip to Japan, when he was in the middle of his fairly brief seeming Christian phase, Lenin himself, and apologized again for the bigger than Christ coming. But then a year later, he's back to atheism or agnosticism or whatever you want to call it, and he writes, serve yourself. So.

Robert Rodriguez (81:41)

Which I thought was interesting in the Playboy interview, when they bring up what do you think of Bob going Christian? And he's very measured in his response.

Jim Windolf (81:49)

But I must say I was surprised when. When Bob did go that way, you know, I was very surprised. I'm sure it wasn't the only one. Because all I ever hear, whenever I hear about him is. And people can quote me to me and make me feel silly, too. But all I ever hear when I think of building is don't follow leaders watching parking meters. You know, I don't like to comment on it because whatever reason he's doing it, it's personal reason for him and he needs to do it. So I'm not distressed by the fact that Dylan is doing what Dylan wants to do or needs to do. You know, I can't say any more than that because I like him personally. I'm not him for years or haven't seen him for years. And I understand it, and I have nothing against it or for it. He needs to do that. Let him do it. You know, he's neither one thing or the other. He's just a human being going through changes. Only in public.

Robert Rodriguez (82:40)

He's not denouncing it the way you might have expected The Lenin of 1970 to have done, Which I thought was kind of interesting.

Jim Windolf (82:47)

Yeah. I think the denouncing takes place in those audio diaries that have leaked out, however they leaked out. But, yeah, that's where we see his initial angry reaction about Don's turn to evangelism.

Robert Rodriguez (82:58)

Yeah. Yeah, all of it. There's the public posture and there's the private posture. And luckily, we're privy to more of the private posture than he probably would have wanted. But it seems to be a little bit more on brand with the John we come to understand through the years.

Jim Windolf (83:14)

Yep. Yeah.

Robert Rodriguez (83:15)

Well, I do remember when Concert for George happened, thinking, where's Bob? This would have been a great moment for him to honor somebody that clearly meant something to him. But on the other hand, I was surprised when he was part of We Are the World, thinking that that's not really his scene. But somebody must have caught him on the right day and there he is.

Jim Windolf (83:34)

Yeah, I think he. Did he send a video or something for a video greeting for the concert for George? I forget. I think he was on tour that night, as usual, you know.

Robert Rodriguez (83:43)

Yeah, as usual.

Jim Windolf (83:44)

Yeah. Did you see that We Are the World documentary about the making of. Yeah, it's funny. And his appearance in that is really interesting.

Robert Rodriguez (83:51)

How did this happen? Yeah, I had been holding off for years, despite my own desire and people writing to me saying, you Got to do a Beatles and Dylan show. And I was like, well, when the time is right, people throw names at me. You should have this person on, this person on whatever. The time became right this year when your book came out and it's like, yes, this is what I've been waiting for. I knew it was gonna happen and it happened. So I'm so happy to finally had a Dylan Beatles conversation with exactly the right thing to hang it on.

Al Aronowitz (84:24)

Just a lucky guy.

Jim Windolf (84:26)

Love to hear you say that Love is love and the wind may be fly Love is here to stay and that's enough question make you my God Be the only one Love me all

Al Aronowitz (84:45)

the time Girl we go on and

Jim Windolf (84:49)

on Someday when we're dreaming Deep in

Al Aronowitz (84:55)

love Not a lot to say that we will remember things we've said

Jim Windolf (85:05)

Something

Robert Rodriguez (85:05)

about the Beatles Created and hosted by Robert Rodriguez executive producer Rick Way, Title song performed by the Corgis Something about the Beatles is an evergreen podcast. You happen to be around in one of the more notable episodes of that time, which was when they got to meet Bob Dylan in New York City.

Al Aronowitz (85:37)

Yes. Well, here's the situation. They met Bob Dylan literally on the night before they left. They had conquered America. They were at this not particularly Idlewild Motel and there was a party because the boys were going back and everybody was, was jubilant. They were thrilled to bits because they had really done very well. And then I saw a scruffy looking guy with a backpack coming into the Idlewild Inn by the Idlewild Airport, which then became the John Kennedy Airport. And it was Bob Dylan. And in fact, Bob Dylan then went into the room. We were standing outside the door of the room of the suite, and they put little wet towels on the bottom of the door. And I thought, what's going on here? And what happened was, of course, as the world probably knows, Bob introduced them to fine grade marijuana. And the only thing that was very funny, well, it was all very funny. The main thing that was funny was that I guess Bob gave them a fat, I hate to say it looked like a tampon cigarette. And Ringo smoked the whole thing. He didn't know what the diplomacy was that you take a few puffs and you pass it around the room. And by the time Ringo finished the cigarette by himself, he was rolling around on the floor giggling like a little girl. Anyway, so that was it. And then the rest of them also got high. And then Dylan packed his backpack and off he went. And then, of course, much later, as most Beatle aficionados know, Bob Dylan became very friendly mainly with John, and John hosted him at his house in England and they became very friendly. But the Beatles loved Dylan's music. They just thought he was terrific.

Jim Windolf (87:40)

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Jim Windolf (87:47)

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Robert Rodriguez (88:03)

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Jim Windolf (88:13)

I'm Bruce Martin, host of Pit Pass Indy. Each week I go behind the scenes of the NTT IndyCar Series and introduce our listeners to the biggest stars of IndyCar, which features the Indianapolis 500 as its cornerstone event. The men and women that compete in IndyCar may be the bravest athletes in all of sport. As danger lurks around every corner, they are able to look danger in the eye without flinching. That is why the NTT IndyCar Series features the best racing on the planet.

Robert Rodriguez (88:44)

Join me every week as we talk

Jim Windolf (88:45)

to the stars of IndyCar, including the legends of the Indianapolis 500 on Pit Pass Indy from Evergreen Podcast.