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- [00:03]
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When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, like Skims or Allbirds, sure you think about a great product, a cool brand and great marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business making, selling and for shoppers buying. Simple for millions of businesses. That business is Shopify, it's home of Shop Pay, the number one checkout in the world. You can use it to boost conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going through. To checkout, upgrade your business and get the same checkout Allbirds uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com income all lowercase go to shopify.com income to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com income. The road to the NBA Finals ends here, with star guard setting the tone. The Cavs eye another upset while the Knicks carry the dreams of all of New York. The Eastern Conference finals continue on ESPN and abc.
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An electric guitar played by George Harrison is expected to sell for up to $800,000 when it's put up for auction this November. The late Beatles member bought the Futurama guitar for just 58 pounds when he was a teenager in Liverpool. Harrison played the instrument throughout the 1960s, including early performances in Germany and while making the band's first official records. Auctioneers describe it as a holy grail of historic Beatles guitars.
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A
Hello and welcome to episode 326 of the Something about the Beatles podcast series. Now sure, all of you that follow Beetle News closely and in fact subscribe to the Something about the Beatles newsletter, are aware of the recent auction held of the Jim Irsay Collection of Instruments and other historic artifacts and holdings, specifically the Beatle related ones that he had collected over the course of many years. Being the guy who would one day claim I've reunited the Beatles as he did through individual instruments owned by each of them. So this collection went up for auction and it got me thinking to other recent auctions that we've heard about, as well as the recent reacquisition of Paul's Long Lost Lost 1961 Hoffner Bass from the Cavern in Hamburg. And there was that doc that subscribers to the Satby Discord would have gotten to see if you didn't see it anywhere else. And all these instruments that have been in the news for coming up for auction. This goes back a number of years as well. I can remember the Rosewood Telecaster of George's as seen in the Let It Be filmed and the Get Back film as well. Sort of a one of a Kind instrument that you didn't really see him play anywhere else, but you see it in the film. And he used it on Abbey Road as well before he gave it away to Delaney Bramlett. All these instruments have stories connected to them. These are instruments that appear on recordings that we revere for the most part. And when you think about it as there was a day when each individual Beatle was excited about having this in his hands for the first time and, and using it to explore the sounds that he could coax out of it with his own skill set and artistry and applying it to whatever the compositions of the day were. Songs that would go on to be recorded and become hit records that we'd end up listening to over and over and over again because we loved them so much. So it all starts with the sounds captured on tape of these instruments. And I thought it would be an interesting thing to explore with somebody who comes from the world of exploring musical instruments. A guy inspired by the Beatles who went on to make a number of videos where he reconstructs Beatles songs, trying to get every detail correct and every instrument correct. That's Sam Popkin, who I had on the show recently with the George show that we did earlier this year, who is part of another podcast called Gear There and everywhere on instruments, amps, effects, everything else that the Beatles use to get their sounds. So here we are in conversation reviewing about half a dozen instruments that were up for auction in recent years and telling the stories behind them. And I think you don't have to be a Gearhead to really appreciate the stories that these specific instruments tell on Beatle recordings.
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I'm Martin from Julian's overlooking Times Square
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at the Hard Rock Cafe, holding a
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really iconic John Lennon guitar, presumed last for 50 years as the famous 12 Strength Hooten Nanny from the help video Help album Rubber Soul album.
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A
It is one of the most important
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B
Beatles John Lennon guitars in the world. The current bid is 1,250,000. He'll give 1,000,005. He had 1,250,000 bid. 1,000,005. 1,000,750 is the current bid.
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A
He'll give 2,000,000 $2,000,000.
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B
2,000,250's bid. That'll be 2,000,005. Two, we say sold at Julian's.
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A
All these Beetle guitars, these iconic instruments that have been played on all these wonderful recordings that we just love and have for years had been in the news. There has been the Jim Irsay auction that just happened where his collection was being basically liquidated and other ones in recent years. And I thought it would be a really interesting conversation to have because as we love this music, and I think some of us that are more curious might have looked into, well, what are they playing on these tracks? Every once in a while you'll see something pop up that is newly discovered or something remembered that is an instrument that's like, oh, I know that. Either I've seen it in performance footage or that's the instrument I hear on this track. And so every time an instrument comes up for auction, there's a really interesting backstory to it. And I don't think many of us get to hear that very often. So I thought it would be cool to be talking to somebody who's very conversant, somebody with a deep knowledge of instruments and a musician himself who has replicated recordings to really know the lay of the land and be able to speak to what these instruments have done, why certain musicians may have made these choices and what they sound like. So I thought this would be a great opportunity and you were game for it. Thank you for coming on the show to talk about these things.
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C
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk Beatles guitars at any moment with anybody. So this is going to be great.
- [07:12]
A
That's great. Okay, so one of the ones that you have a direct connection to came up a few years ago when there was an auction through Julian's. And I want to say newly discovered. Maybe it's more accurate to say newly remembered. And it was a guitar that was sort of an oddball thing, that it's not a familiar name. Most people, even if you're not a musician, you know the name Gibson, you know the name Fender, you know Rick, you know Hoffner, if you're a Beatle fan. Framis was a new one on me. And I hadn't thought that deeply about it before, but to millions of Beatle fans, you have seen this instrument. If you've ever seen the movie Help. Because John is seen playing it in the opening performance of the title track. And then later on in the film, when they're at their purported residence, he's playing it for you've Got to Hide youe Love Away. Sort of an atypical thing. It's a folky instrument. And the Beatles didn't do a whole lot of stuff with this sound, but there it is. And I hadn't heard the name before Framus, but it came up for auction. And then there was this backstory that apparently it had passed through the hands of Gordon Waller from Peter and Gordon, and was Left in an attic for decades before somebody rediscovered it and decided to put it out there. So what do you know about it? How would this guitar have gotten into the Beatles hands? Do we have any idea of how that might have happened?
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C
I'm not entirely sure when they got the guitar, but going back to the Beatles For Sale sessions, I'm A loser has a 12 string acoustic on it. And some people have thought that maybe it was the free miss, but there's a YouTuber named Perry Stanley who has a huge Beatles collection and he happens to own a real famous hoot nanny from the 60s which nowadays are very hard to find. They didn't make many of them anyway. He's very familiar with the serial numbers and how that works. And looking at the photo from the auction and a close up, he was able to determine that John's Framis would have been made in December 1964, which would have been a few months after I'm A Loser was recorded. So it's probably not the Framis on that. And then the Help sessions start in 65. And you do see the Framis in those sessions on a lot of songs from Help, not only the title track and you've got to hide your love away, but It's Only Love. It's possible that George played the rhythm on that one. And I've Just Seen a Face is actually the 12 string on the guitar solo. So it does appear on a lot of Help tracks. And Rubber Soul, it appears on Norwegian Wood. George did play that on Norwegian Wood, but other than that you don't really hear it much for the rest of the Beatles catalog. I did want to mention though, one other song later on, which is two songs really. Polythene, Pam and She Came in through the Bathroom Window do have a 12 string acoustic on them. And some people have wondered, was that the Freemus? But probably not, because the story goes that John gave it away in 65 to Gordon Waller, as you said. So there are some other theories about what The Abbey Road 12 string acoustic was. Maybe Offender Villager that was given to them. Fender gave the Beatles a lot of guitars in 68 and 69. But I digress.
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A
No, that's something we'll probably get to later on in this conversation. The Fender gift of instruments and amps and gear to the Beatles. Was there anybody else, a contemporary of the Beatles that might have been using those guitars? They might have picked them up from or at least gotten the idea that these things exist?
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C
Yeah, so Framis made a few acoustic 12 string guitars and they all were fairly similar and would have different names of the model. So there was the hootenanny the Beatles used. There was the Camping King, which is basically a hootenanny but like a different look. And then there was one called the Texan, which is funny because Paul McCartney used an Epiphone Texan. Different guitar entirely. But yeah, I believe Ray Davies used a famous 12 string Texan on well Respected man and some of those early King songs. Donovan used a Framus, not sure actually which model, but he used a Framus on the first album of his. And there's pictures of David Bowie actually in the mid-60s with a framis 12 string.
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A
Wow.
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C
Yeah, that's something. So not too bad. Some of the best British 60s rock musicians.
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A
Yeah, that's fascinating. And if we don't know through any official channels how the Beatles got familiar with it and were presented it, as we do with other stories like Rickenbacker and Fender, it's quite possible just through their friendship with these other musicians that they saw them like them and that's how they ended up getting them into their hands.
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C
Or maybe they saw it in Hamburg because it was a German instrument maker and they remembered it. I don't know.
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A
It's interesting when they didn't want a mock show anymore. Acoustic 12 string. You'd mentioned I'm a loser. So it's this mystery 12 string that apart from the electric Rick that we know was given to George the beginning of 64 when they came home to America for the Stallman shows. Do we know of any other 12 strings that they had? Like beyond a doubt that there's photographs of or anything like that?
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C
There was the Rickenbacker 3, 2, 5, 12. So it was the black 325 like John had. But Rickenbacker gave him a 12 string version of it, which probably wasn't used on much, but possibly on every little thing. Because the 12 string intro on that song is very strange sounding. It's not as pleasant and Chimy as George's 3 6, 012 from like a hard Day's Night. And George actually had a second 36012 during Rubber Soul 1965. He was given, I think by Rickenbacker in America. I want to say he was in like Minnesota. There's press conference footage of him receiving the second 12 string Rickenbacker that was actually possibly stolen. Kind of disappears later in the Beatles career. But that was used on if I Needed Someone and some Revolver, like the. And your bird can sing early take is kind of Birdsy, jangly sounding. That's that 12 string as well.
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A
So that one has disappeared and we don't know what happened to it.
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C
We don't know what happened to that one. No, it's possible it was stolen or maybe George gave it to somebody. Like these other guitars that we'll get into in a bit. But they also had, I believe Guild or Gretsch. I think Gretsch made like a 12 string for them that appears in Andy Babyuk's Beatles Gearbook but they didn't use that on any recording. So surprisingly they did own a lot of 12 string guitars, but most of them were just kind of used once or twice, never used on a recording.
- [14:56]
A
Wow, that's interesting. So the 12 string frame is Hoot Nanny that we're talking about here. We've got the songs that we know of that you've mentioned that it was used on mostly on Help and then one on Rubber Soul given to Gordon Waller who apparently passed it on to road manager or manager and that's how it ended up in the attic to be discovered later. And it ended up going for $2,857,500, which is amazing. But around that time they got back into the business of making this long discontinued model, did they not?
- [15:28]
C
Yeah. So Framis have been a company since the 50s or 60s and they've been through many different phases and they've made a lot of modern electric guitars. Actually a lot of like European kind of metal bands will have used their electric guitars and like nine string instrument. A lot of interesting things. But only recently, like you said, Framis got back into reissuing. They were kind of classic for them, like acoustic guitars. And fortunately I was among the first few guys to be able to demo the famous Hooten Nanny. Another guy was Nick Martellaro who's another really great Beatles youtuber and a friend of mine. So the two of us were kind of the first like Beatles guys to receive this new Freemous Hooten Nanny. The first time that it had been reissued for almost 50 years. So it felt very special to collaborate with famous and to talk with the head of the company is actually Nicholas Wilfer. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. But it could be Vilfer. But he's actually the son of the original Framis founder, I believe, or maybe grandson. Very nice guy. And yeah, I'm very fortunate to have received one of those Hoot Nannies and it plays great. When I received it all the way from Germany, I opened it up in the case and played a G chord and it was still in tune coming across the pond.
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A
That's amazing. That is so cool. So what a neat thing. And I have to wonder if the timing of this. John Lennon went getting all this publicity because of the auction and then deciding to greenlight reissuing it. If it's a coincidence or one prompted the other. It's pretty unusual timing for both things to happen simultaneously.
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C
Yeah, it happened right around 20, 24, I want to say. So I'm not sure if it was coincidental, but. But it's also around the time that Paul's Hoffner lost bass showed up that year was pretty interesting for lost Beatle instruments.
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A
Attic finds.
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C
Both attic finds in the UK now, around that time.
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A
Didn't Julian's also have the auction where George's Futurama guitar went up as well?
- [17:36]
C
Yeah, I guess that it was around the same time. It's another weird early Beatle guitar. The Futurama is kind of like a Stratocaster knockoff. And George had always wanted a Stratocaster because of Buddy Holly and some other famous guitarists like Ike Turner that they admired. He couldn't get a real Stratocaster. He wanted one that was in Liverpool, but the guitarist from Rory Storm and the Hurricanes got it first. And he said that he always felt like he was cheated of his first Stratocaster. And the Futurama, he did use it in those early Hamburg years and it got some good use.
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A
Yeah, it's the one that, for anybody wondering, those Astrid Kerr chair pictures that you see of them on the fairground and they're all standing there, the five of them with their instruments. And Pete Best, I think he's got his drumsticks at least, maybe a snare drum, but they're all there and it's the one that George is holding. So for that reason alone, it's seared into the memories of every Beatle fan around the world. You are hearing it in the Tony Sheridan recordings, at least the initial ones that they did. But for being in George's hands in this cool, unbelievably iconic group picture, it's worth something. And in fact, it ended up going for $1,127,000. So it's worth something to somebody. But like you said, it's sort of a lesser version of a Strat. And George wanted a Strat. He couldn't get the one in Liverpool he thought he was going to get. And I believe he had said it wasn't terribly easy to Play.
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C
Yeah, he said something about the action. The strings were very high off the fretboard and it wasn't easy to play. But songs like Cry for a Shadow have some very high up bends, so he did a pretty good job. It sounded really good in those recordings.
- [19:20]
A
Yeah, yeah. So that's where you get to hear it today. Speaking of obscurities, we were talking before another guitar that I've never heard before, but apparently it was sufficiently grounded in a Beatle connection to be auctioned for a high dollar price when it resurfaced. Maintenance and apparently it's not one that we know for certain is documented on a Beatle record, though it may be on the BBC. And this was one going back to the summer of 63, if you want to fill in that story.
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C
Yeah, this one's not very well known even among nerdy Beatle people, but the Mayton Master Sound model was used very briefly by George in 1963. There's a few guitars that George used only for a week or two. 63, like the tour with Helen Shapiro in the very early months of 63, he used a different Gretsch Firebird, I believe, like a red guitar that you can see in some pictures. And he still had the duo Jet at that point. So I'm not sure why he would have a different guitar, but either somebody would let him borrow one for a gig or he needed a backup. And in this case with the Maten, it's believed that he got it on July 3, 1963 in Manchester. He was using the Gretsch Country Gentleman mainly at that point the duo jet had kind of receded, either been given to Klaus Vorman at that point or was in for repair. But the Matin was kind of a backup plan for the Country Gentleman that he bought in July. And he did use it in some concerts. There's some photos of it, but it's not known to have made it onto any Beatle recordings. She Loves yous was recorded around that time in July 1st.
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A
July 1st, and it came out in August.
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C
Yeah, but there's photos from those sessions and you see the Country Gentleman and the Gibson J160 being used. So we know the Matin wasn't in Abbey Road in the studio, but it is possible that it made it onto some of those live on the BBC recordings, because looking at a lot of those dates in July and August when he had the Matin, it's very possible that he used the Matin on some of those. Like going to sit right down and cry over you or Memphis, Tennessee. It's possible the gent was in for repair for about a week and it was very quick repair, so it's possible the gent was still used on those. But either way he is believed to have given the Maten back to this Manchester guitar shop. And then I'm not really sure what happens after that, but it went up for auction around 2015 for $485,000. Pretty good for a kind of unknown brand like Mayton. It's an Australian brand, actually. Very tiny guitar. But I was telling you earlier that despite it being kind of an oddball thing, Keith Richards had a Matin later on in the 60s and apparently it's what was used on Gimme she. According to Rolling Stones Gearbook. Andy Babyuk wrote the wrong Stones Gearbook. And you can see pictures of that mate and guitar kind of similar.
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A
Is that company even still around?
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C
I don't think so.
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A
Okay, as far as I think I know that Mick was in Australia shooting Ned Kelly. I don't know if that's how the guitar ended up being brought back to England or what, but that's pretty interesting. Before we move on, we'd mentioned the duo Jet, and that was the one that George famously said he bought off a sailor or something. It was his first really good American guitar. That's when he thought he'd really made it. And it's the one you see in the Some Other Guy video, the film at the Cavern. And as you mentioned, he used it the Decca Audition. And then at some point it's superseded by the Gretsch guitars that he acquires in 63. And at some point he gives it to Klaus, like you said, he gets it back from Klaus much, much later on. And then you see it again on the COVID of Cloud 9, which was sort of his comeback album, so sort of a full circle thing. And it seems that the guitars that are most strongly identified with the Beatles, such as the 12 string ricks, such as the Epiphones for John's case at least, and Paul's Hofter and his Rick Bass, those seem to have stayed in their hands and never left. Other ones eventually come back to the estates and we'll talk about that down the road. But it seems like a lot of what comes up for auctions are the ones that may have made it to some really important recordings, but that the Beatles didn't hold onto for very long before they ended up in somebody else's hands and then resurfaced decades later and came up for auction.
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C
That's right. Yeah. A lot of the Jim Ursay collection, too, those ones. Some of them were either never used on a song, used on one or two songs, and then given to somebody else. The Beatles were given a lot of instruments, as you said, with Fender later on. People wanted their guitars to be seen in their hands, so. And they didn't always like what was given to them. So there's a lot of interesting things that appear only for a split second.
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A
Yeah. I'm thinking right now that Vox prototype, that basically the only time you see it is at the alternate cuts of the hello, Goodbye video.
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C
Right. That's a strange one. The Vox Kensington. That's a really weird guitar. The new Anthology 4 box set had the baby, you're a rich man outtake. And before they get into the real take, you hear John saying, george, that guitar sounds awful. Don't use it. And it does sound very strange. It's possible that was what he was using. That guitar's a curse, man. The Vox Kensington, yeah.
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A
September of 63, George makes the trip over to visit his sister. This is Pre Ed Solomon's show. And goes to downstate Illinois, Benton. And while there, he's in a guitar shop because now he's got some pocket money. They've had a few hit singles to this point. He's able to buy himself a 63 Rickenbacker 425 model. And John, of course, has had his at least in 60 because it's in the aforementioned Astrid picture of them in the fairground. The one that was initially blonde maple. And then he paints it black. So George finds this in the guitar shop, he buys it, and the first thing he does is ask them to paint it black as well.
- [26:44]
C
That's right. Yeah. It's interesting. George was in America before the rest of the Beatles. And got to go into a real American guitar store before any of them. You know, it was so hard in England to find American guitars like Fender. Hank Marvin was the first to receive a Stratocaster. And even Gibsons could be sometimes difficult. But anyway, George is in Benton. Have you ever been to Benton before?
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A
I've passed it on i57 to see the big George billboard. But I've not been to the house that's up for sale currently.
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C
I've never been to the Midwest, so I gotta go at some point.
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A
Okay.
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C
But, yeah, so George sees this. Actually at that point, it was a fire glow, smaller Rickenbacker. It wasn't the same small model like John's, but kind of similar, solid body, little Guitar Single pickup had a single pickup in it in the middle. So it's kind of where you strum, which is not very convenient. Some people say that's why John removed the pickup in his 325. The middle pickup. You still see the COVID But there are some people anyway that say because it was hard to strum and it would plunk the sound. But later on George would Mob this Rickenbacker 425 to have two pickups. So that was a later mod. But yeah, he asked this guitar shop owner to refin it black. Presumably because John had painted his Rickenbacker black so it would be a matching look. And I think the guitar store owner was confused why George wanted to do that, but he did it either way. And George returned back to England I think like a week later. And it is a guitar that was used on a very important song. I Want to hold you'd hand, at least according to a lot of Beatles guitar nerd people like me. Because at that point he had the Gretsch country gentleman, which can be a bright sounding guitar, but it's humbucking pickups and they're a bit warmer. It's like a hollow body, semi hollow guitar. And this Rickenbacker 425 is much janglier and single coil pickup. So it's much easier to identify the bright sound. On I Want to hold you'd hand the lead, the one that does the bends. The really bright electric guitar on that song.
- [29:06]
A
That's interesting. That's a pretty high profile song for this thing to appear on. But it doesn't appear that he held onto it very long or that it just got superseded in terms of his interest fairly quickly because he doesn't have it very long. It gets given away, I believe. Right?
- [29:22]
C
I believe so. I think like in 64 there was like a raffle in the Beat Instrumental magazine. I'm not sure why George did it that way, but I can't imagine he liked the guitar that much if he was ready to just let some random person have it. But you do see it in some performances, mostly like TV promos like on Ready Steady Go with Helen Shapiro and a few other little shots of George using her 425. But yeah, it's a strange little guitar. You can find them online these days. But not in black, obviously. They're usually Fire glow and people don't seem to like them very much, I guess.
- [30:02]
A
And he modified it so he must not have been that happy with it. But it made me wonder if when he came to America, did he bring a guitar with him? Because we know he was jamming with that band at the vfw, the Five Vests. Did they loan him a guitar or did he carry one on the trip that he returned with? I don't know that information. I don't know if anybody does. But it's interesting that the first opportunity he had to buy a guitar he did, but then it wasn't really in his hands because it was being painted.
- [30:30]
C
So it is interesting. Or maybe he had a whole week with his sister and wanted to be able to play and didn't have a guitar, so he went and bought one.
- [30:39]
A
Yeah, yeah, interesting. But that one went for $657,000 and if it did nothing other than be played on, I want to hold you'd hand, that's still pretty important. But I guess the really cool aspect is that it's on these TV shows like Ready, Steady Go.
- [30:54]
C
Yeah, you can find a Rick and Necker425 used for about $1,000 or $2,000. So they're not not that coveted of an instrument. But when it's George, of course. Yeah.
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A
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- [32:20]
C
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- [32:32]
A
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C
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- [32:49]
A
So the guitar that in a lot of people's minds, it's been photographed a lot. If you've seen the promos to Paperback Rider and Rainbow, you see it there. You see it in the film of the Hague Bulldog recording session. It's the Gibson SG. It's a 64 model double cutaway, so you can play high up on the neck. And this one just ended up being for sale in the Jim Irsay collection. But the thing that makes it even more singular is the fact that, yeah, George did some high profile stuff with it, but then he gifted it to Pete Ham of Badfinger. Apparently would have still the Ivys as they were transitioning to Badfinger and then got played on more iconic recordings. So that's a guitar with an amazing history to it. What is it you know about that in terms of George acquiring it and what it was used on?
- [34:00]
C
Yeah, it's a really iconic guitar. I was working the week that the Jim Mercier collection was in New York City and I wasn't able to go down, but I, I saw some people who were able to like touch the guitars and pose with them. It's a shame I didn't get to to do that myself, but either way, it's one of my favorite Beetle guitars. It was used on mainly Revolver and the White Album. So George acquired it sometime in early 66 is the best guess. It's not really certain where he bought it or why he bought it, but during Rubber Soul, George really only had a Stratocaster and a Gretch Tennessean and I guess a 12 string. But this is before John and George got their casinos and they didn't really have that kind of warm, distorted kind of sound yet. And the Gibson SG has the standard model that George has as two humbucker pickups. It's very warm and it gets a very nice distorted sound. So that's what you hear on she said, she said and Dr. Robert and paperback Writer. Although the main riff on Paperback Writer is actually Paul on his Epiphone Casino. But the SG got used a lot, as you said. Hey, Bulldog Lady Madonna possibly on Dear Prudence. And everybody's got something to hide except me and my monkey. And a lot of those kind of distorted lead tones in 68 SG is really good at distorting easily and it doesn't feed back because it's a solid body model. Sam,
- [36:16]
A
What's interesting to Me, when I'm thinking about it is, as I mentioned, you see him playing it in all those promo films. But he also was photographed playing it live in concert 5-1-66 at the NME poll winner show, which was not videotaped, sadly and tragically. But when they go out on tour after that, he's got the Epiphone Casino. So it's interesting he didn't take the SG out on the road. Clearly they acquired the Casino right on the heels of apparently that show, unless they're using it all through Revolver and just decided that was going to be their go to stage guitar.
- [36:49]
C
Right. So Paul McCartney famously had the Epiphone Casino as early as the Help sessions. So they knew about this sound and this guitar. And I believe Paul wanted feedback like Jeff Beck was getting. So that was a big part of the hollow body kind of Gibsony sound. Gibson and Epiphone were correlated, but it's not certain when George and John got their Epiphone casinos, but it was right around the time of Revolver, the early Revolver session. So, yeah, Revolver is interesting because suddenly the Beatles had a lot more gear at their disposal and Revolver is an incredible creative sonic landscape of an album. So the SG definitely played into that tonally.
- [37:34]
A
And we know that Pete Townsend, the who was playing an SG at least as of 1969. That's the guitar at Woodstock and at least for a period following that. Before that he had Fender, Stratz and even Mike Nesmith and the Monkees. He's got an SG special. You see him playing in Head in the concert sequence. There's. So I wonder who it was that influenced them or if it was a gift from Gibson that these ended up in the Beatles hands and when they did.
- [38:05]
C
Yeah, I'm not sure there was a lot of SG players, although it was kind of interesting at the time. Nowadays we think of an SG and the Les Paul as the most famous Gibson models. But there was a time when after 1960, Gibson discontinued the Les Paul that we know. And the SG actually was called the Les Paul early on. The SG actually, I believe stood for standard guitar or something like that. So it was later named sg. But yeah, it was not really popular at the time like we think it is, because people weren't getting distorted rock tones like Eric Clapton until the mid to late 60s.
- [38:43]
A
Well, what is particularly interesting about this guitar is that at the. In 1969, apparently, judging by what we know with the evidence is that George gave this SG to Pete Ham of the ivies. Then in 69 they transitioned to badfinger by the end of the year when they issued the Paul McCartney written and produced Come and Get it recording. And when I think about it, George would not work with them for another couple years. Well, I take that back. He worked with Badfinger as part of his platoon of guitar players on All Things Must Pass. And you would think as a thank you, that's maybe when he gives it to Pete Hamm. But no, we know that Pete has it in 1969 because they do some promotional stuff for the Magic Christian film soundtrack, which they got three songs in the soundtrack, the one Paul wrote, Come and get it but also Carry On Till Tomorrow and Rock of All Ages. And we know that Pete Hamm is playing it on those recordings. And I consulted with my Badfinger experts to find this out because it's not apparent from the album packaging or credits or anything, but we did see that Pete used it an awful lot. You see him using it on TV performances. He uses it on Top of the Pops. He uses it on the Kenny Rogers Rolling on the river show from 72 when they're miming to Baby Blue. And there it is again. So it had this incredible post Beatle life in Pete Hamm's hands, which is an amazing thing. But as with so much else in the story of Badfinger, it too met with tragedy. 1974, backstage at a gig. P is walking with it and trips on something and snaps the neck off. Just one more awful thing to happen to them. We know that it ended up in the hands of his brother John, who ran a music shop in Swansea, South Wales. And it was eventually John who repaired the guitar. And then decades later, it got put up for auction. And that's how it ended up in Jim Irsay's hands. So there's all this history with this particular 1964 instrument and then it was put up for sale again and it went for $2,271,000.
- [40:52]
C
That's incredible. Yeah. And it's just a great looking guitar. And a Gibson sg from the 1960s, at least that specific year without the George connection, would still go for up to $50,000 on its own. So it's a really great. Very coveted. Yeah, I love Batfinger. I love the tones that Pete Ham got on slide guitar and on no Matter What Baby Blue. You could even argue that those tones are even better than the Beatles SG tones and the playing. Because Pete Hamm was just an incredible player and it's sad what happened to him and the band and that they're not as talked about.
- [41:31]
A
Yeah. As Recognized. Joey was no slouch on guitar either. And you listen to when they're playing dual leads. It was just this big, fat chiming guitar sound. I know in my heart, even without looking into it, that there was plenty of indie bands that followed in the 80s and 90s that absolutely are paying close attention to Badfinger, because I can hear it.
- [42:32]
C
Yeah, the playing and the tones are incredible. And Joey Molland used an SG as well. I think his was an SG special. So kind of like Pete Townsend's model, which had different pickups. I have a 1970 SG special because I'm a huge Pete Townsend fan for my Beatles YouTube covers. I'm still kind of thinking, well, I kind of need one that looks like George's.
- [42:54]
A
That's going the extra mile to get it right. That's amazing.
- [42:57]
C
Let's need another one.
- [42:59]
A
Of course. So one of the things in doing the research for the show, I was looking at yet another strange guitar in terms of not being a household name. But it had come up in conversation on the show before. When we were talking, I had Marcus Phelan and Andrew Shakespeare on the show where we're sort of researching to a granular level detail who's playing what on what recordings. And during the White Album sessions, the topic of the fretless guitar came up and I did a little bit of research that again, Bartell, not a household name, but apparently it's a small company, I think based in California. But the story that I was able to track down was that George is in California in the summer of 67. Post pepper. Post all youl Need Is Love. We've seen the pictures of him in San Francisco and Haight Ashbury. But this was when he was in Blue Jay Way, the house in Hollywood Hills where he wrote the song. And apparently he and his party had made a trip to a recording session in la. I'm not sure who it was, what the session was, that. That's the story. I've read that they saw this fretless guitar and the next day Neil Aspinall puts in an order at Bartel to get one to George. Next thing we know, it ends up in England at the White Album sessions. And we can time it to at least by the first week of the sessions, first week of June, 68, when they're being interviewed by Kenny Everett in the studio and John has got the fretless guitar, it's mentioned in passing, so we know it's there in time for the White Album sessions. What do you know about Bartell Fretless
- [44:37]
C
guitars, next to nothing. I've never heard of Bartell other than this. So I don't really know if they made other guitars or who else used them. But I could see John Lennon really enjoying the idea of a fretless guitar because you can get really interesting sounds without the frets. Obviously you can slide into a note and get different pitches, almost like using a slide, bottleneck slide. But it takes a lot of finesse to play one. I've played a different fretless guitar and it took a lot of practice just to get it sounding good at all. So it's impressive.
- [45:10]
A
It's not to be played casually.
- [45:12]
C
Yeah, no. I think, like, Robert Fripp used one and he's a master of guitar. But I could see John Lennon giving up very quickly on it.
- [45:19]
A
As far as we know, per the research I did, it's believed by people who've looked into such things that it may be unhappiness and Worm gun. That's not 100% sure. Those low bends in the bridge, as well as the initial plodding version of Helter Skelter. Maybe your ears tell you something more.
- [45:39]
C
Yeah, it's kind of controversial and I don't want to upset anybody, but, you know, Happiness Is a Worm Gun is a really great solo. It's short, but there's huge. Either bends or just with the fretless. It's kind of like a slide up that he could have done with a fuzz pedal effect. I've been able to get the right sound just using my Les Paul by doing some very extreme bends on the A string. But it's very possible that was the fretless. And the other song off the White Album that I do hear as a possibility is Dear Prudence. There's a lot of layered distorted guitars later on in the song, and I was picking apart the isolated tracks. And there's this one point where George does what sounds like kind of a slide on the lower string. And he wasn't playing much slide guitar at this point, like he was for the rest of his, you know, solo career. There's a few little instances in the Beatles of slide guitar use, like on 4U blue on the lap steel. So anytime you hear those kind of in between pitches or slide ups, it's very possible it was this fretless guitar.
- [46:47]
A
And this is one that we do have, at least anecdotally, a telling of how it came to a Beatles attention, but it certainly was not a common thing among rock stars, their peer group. So you can sort of See why they played around with it but didn't hold on to it because it just, as you said, takes a degree of precision to really master. And they weren't going to do it. Although it is interesting when you think this is George's heyday of playing sitar. And if this is considered it sort of a missing link between guitar and sitar as something I could play around with, make interesting sounds, maybe it drew him back into being a full time guitar player. But what we do know is that it was in the 80s that he was in LA in a studio and it was a session player by the name of Ray Russell, who he just happened to have the guitar with him apparently in la and he gave it to Ray and it was something that showed up on Antique Roadshow of all things, this particular guitar. And Ray had no idea the value of this thing. And when he found out that this thing was worth way more than he had anticipated, he decided he didn't want to keep it around because he was worried about safekeeping it. So he put it up for auction and ended up going for $300,000.
- [47:56]
C
That's pretty good for such a strange guitar. You do see George in Friar park in the 70s. There's some photos of him with his big guitar collection. And I'm pretty sure the Bartel is in the background or is amongst those many guitars. So we know that George held onto it if he used it. I don't know.
- [48:14]
A
Yeah, but there it is now, one of the ones that I happen to have been aware of when it happened. And this is going back now, we're going 20 plus years. But we had talked last time you were on the show, we talked a little bit about the rosewood Telecaster that George had. That basically it's his defining instrument for the Let It Be sessions he plays out on the rooftop. You see it throughout. And apparently as part of this big pitch that Fender had been sort of trying to woo the Beatles to use their equipment for the windfall that would surely come their way from the association, as Ludwig found out by 1964, when Ringo just kept that sticker on his kick drum. And so they gifted the Beatles a ton of equipment. Guitars, 6 string basses, Fender twin amps, Fender Rhodes keyboards, and late that year, post white album sessions in the eventful month of December 1968. That's the same time when George had inadvertently invited the Hell's Angels over to the South Row to show up for one memorable Christmas party. An emissary from Fender came out to Savile Row to present him with this prototype of this Rosewood Telecaster. So it was something they were thinking about putting into production. And in fact, in early 69 they did put it into production, but the story was that they'd made one for George, a Telecaster, and then they made a Rosewood Strat for Jimi Hendrix that didn't get finished till April the following year and somehow never made it into his hands before he died. But in any event, this thing had been flown over in its own seat on the plane, given to George, and we talked a little bit about it last time, that there's alternate tellings of whether George liked it or not.
- [49:57]
C
Right. Because they were very heavy guitars. I've never gotten to play a real one. You know, Fender reissued them like Japanese or Mexican made ones, and I've played those and they're. They're pretty good, but they're not actually real rosewood. They just look the part. Rosewood was very heavy wood. And yeah, by all accounts, this is a very heavy guitar. And George ended up giving it to Delaney Bramlett in 69, which seems like it was a return favor for having him on the tour. The Delaney and Bonnie tour, after the Beatles had sort of broken up. John had left the group, but the fact that he gave it away so quickly made people think maybe George didn't like this thing. But I was talking to somebody who knew a lot about Delaney and apparently Delaney was a very interesting guy. And part of the. Like George joining the tour. The caveat was Delaney really wants you to just like give him one of your guitars as part of this. So that's what George did. That's the story I've heard. And, you know, he used it on the rooftop. Used it during Let It Be, Get Back, but he also used it on Abbey Road on a lot of tracks. So he didn't hate it enough to put it away after those initial January sessions.
- [51:11]
A
Yeah. And we've seen that with other guitars like the Rickenbacker 425, that he had them use them briefly, maybe one memorable moment, but they moved on quickly from them. This is not that.
- [51:22]
C
No. And yeah, it's interesting. I'm curious about, like, the December 68 thing that you read, because I've seen this footage from 1-21-69, which is the first day in Savile Row, Apple Studios basement. And it's. It's not in Get Back. It's like a very blurry video, but it's of Mal handing George the rosewood and George shaking his hand, kind of almost like, thank you. Because you don't see the guitar before that date.
- [51:51]
A
You don't see any clicking them, right?
- [51:53]
C
No. So it's interesting. But either way you're right that Fender gave them a ton of gear, some of which was barely used. There's like a weird Fender acoustic that you see. And get back for one split second. George picks it up and then it disappears. And then going back to frame as hootenanny for just a second. There's one more 12 string acoustic Beatles song off of Abbey Road. Sort of two songs. It's on the medley, but Polythene Pam and she came in through the bathroom window. John is playing a unknown 12 string acoustic guitar. And we know that it probably wasn't the famous hootenanny because he gave Gordon Waller that guitar in 65. So it's unclear what it was. However, there's some speculation that it was amongst the Fender batch that was given to them. A Fender Villager 12 string acoustic. And I have a friend who says, swears that they've seen this document of all the gear that was given in 69 and that was amongst it. But I've never actually seen it myself,
- [53:00]
A
so that'd be interesting. It seems like the Beatles were for the most part incredibly well documented. Even in the studio, there's any number of pictures of different sessions. Especially at this late era where Linda is showing up and she's always got a camera.
- [53:13]
C
Right.
- [53:13]
A
If there is a photo of this guitar used for that particular tracking. It hasn't surfaced yet, but boy, it very well could exist.
- [53:21]
C
Yeah, it's interesting how much Fender gear they used, as you said, the Rhodes and the basement amplifiers, the twins. But personally, for me, the rosewood telly is possibly my favorite Beatles guitar of all time. Just because I love Get Back. I love the Rooftop concert and I'm a telly guy. So all those things combined,
- [54:08]
A
It's hard to push back on his apparent disdain if there really was one, when he gets such amazing performances out of it. Especially on the Rooftop. The bends he's doing and he's just on fire. These great lead runs he does throughout. It's not a whole lot of music they're doing there, but they think of things like 1 after 9:09 and dig a Pony. It's amazing. It's like a breakthrough performance for him.
- [54:32]
C
Yeah, it's incredible. Some of my favorite guitar tones of all time. And it's kind of a shame because Delaney. You can actually see footage of Delaney and Bonnie with Clapton and Harrison in, I want to say Sweden or Copenhagen. I forget where? But late 69. And it's really cool because on stage you see Rocky, George's Stratocaster, George's Lucy, Les Paul, if Clapton is playing, and the Rosewood telly are all on stage played by those three guitarists. Some of my favorite Beatle guitars, probably my three favorites. So it's all in one live performance. Kind of a rare thing, but Delaney apparently modded the Rosewood Telecaster, put humbuckers in them, and once Danny Harrison got it back, I think he returned it to its Beatles specifically.
- [55:19]
A
Yeah. I read something online where apparently, late in life, Delaney had run into Leo Fender, and he mentioned that he had George's guitar. And Leo's jaw just drops like that was one of a kind. You did what to it? Why did he give you that? I guess he liked me.
- [55:35]
C
That's the character?
- [55:36]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And I was looking into it, and I saw that there's a musician by the name of David Ralston. I don't know if you've ever heard of him, but apparently Delaney produced an album of his called Nail it down, and he's holding it on the COVID of that.
- [55:48]
C
Really? Wow. I gotta check that out. Yeah, that's cool.
- [55:51]
A
So the story is that George, before he died, we know he died in 2001, had a conversation with Delaney and he said, you still got that guitar I gave you. You should sell it because it'll make you some money and you can live comfortably off that. And he didn't do it till two years after George died in 2003, September 13, he sold it, and it went for $434,750 to a proxy bidder for Olivia, none other than the actor Ed Begley Jr. Really?
- [56:23]
C
Oh, I didn't realize that.
- [56:24]
A
Yeah.
- [56:25]
C
That's so funny.
- [56:26]
A
That's the story associated with that. Yeah.
- [56:28]
C
And that's how Olivia got it back in the Harrison estate.
- [56:31]
A
Right, Right. I think maybe in that Conan o' Brien video of Danny showing him the guitars at Friar Park. Yeah, you see it there? Nobody ever love me like she does.
- [56:52]
B
She does.
- [57:11]
A
No, We're talking about the country, gentlemen. And George had two of them, and one ended up apparently flattened on the road. It's a story because it fell off the back of the car when they were touring England at 65. But there's more to the story.
- [57:40]
C
There is. So I have a podcast that I co host, Gear there and everywhere. And it's very nerdy Beatles gear centric. But we uncover some mysteries because there are a lot of Beetle Gear mysteries, and one of them was the story went that in late December, late 65, Mal Evans was driving on the road and I think they're on their way to Scotland. I could be wrong, but the truck tipped over and the instruments got smashed and it was George's Grech country gentleman and George was very upset about it. The interesting thing is that we discovered once Paul McCartney's base, the lost one, the 61 Cavern base, showed up, there were some close up images of it and it had a Gretsch metal silver tuner on one of the pegs, whereas the rest of it was a different look. And we determined that it could only be Gretsch Tennessean from this certain era, like George's the 63 Tennessean. Additionally, George's Lucy Les Paul that you see in Get Back, the pickup switch selector was not like a normal Gibson toggle switch, it was a Gretchtennessian toggle switch. So we determined that actually it seems like the Tennessean was smashed and that Mao used the parts to repair other Beetle instruments. And yeah, it's pretty interesting.
- [59:04]
A
It was an organ donor.
- [59:05]
C
Yeah, very generous.
- [59:07]
B
Yeah.
- [59:07]
C
And it's possible that the gent was also smashed. We don't know a lot of details. Interesting watching that Lost Base documentary recently, because when Paul finally got his Hoffner back, it had all four identical tuners. So the Gretsch Tennessean tuner was gone. He must have repaired it and wanted a certain look. But I hope he held onto George's original Gretsch tuner. Didn't get rid of it.
- [59:33]
A
I saw something that was in the UK press following the airing of that doc that apparently there's the implication that the guy from Hawkwind had it, that he might have even stolen it. Yeah, yeah.
- [59:45]
C
In that documentary they. It goes into the whole story of who stole it. And yeah, it seems like it was someone associated with Hawkwind or maybe the band stayed at that house. They were like a prog rock kind of band, right?
- [59:59]
A
Yeah, yeah. And it was like this sort of guilt by association thing, at least, that they're pushing back really angrily on since that special area.
- [60:08]
C
Really. Yeah, that would make sense. Yeah. They don't want to be associated with that.
- [60:13]
A
Right. Right, Now it's time to do it. It's a great story. You don't have to be a gearhead to recognize that all these instruments that are getting these heightened profiles because they're coming up for auction or newly discovered after being launched for so many years, they're part of these recordings that we revere and. And at some point, these things were loved and held and played and some exploration took place on these instruments by Beatles to make this great music. And so everything's got a story to it. And great. To have the opportunity to dig into this stuff with you because you are such a gearhead to me, is not a pejorative. It just means you got an expertise with things you have a passion for. So that's great you're here to share the stories with us. And I, on behalf of the listeners and myself, appreciate you coming on the show to talk about this stuff, because I think, if anything, it just enhances our enjoyment of what we're listening to, to know what happened before and after with these things that are starting to surface. So thank you.
- [61:34]
C
Yeah, I appreciate you having me on again. And, yeah, I just love that. These songs that we revere, as you said, there's so many elements to it. There's the emotional piece of when we first heard the song, there's the lyrics. And then you can get into the really nerdy guitar stuff, which is something maybe not for everybody, but I certainly enjoy talking about it. And it's been really fun chatting with you about it.
- [61:58]
A
To me, it just adds another layer of humanity to this stuff. We all know what it's like to be excited about if you're a musician or even if you're not just something you desire and you're just kind of hoping, have the circumstance to enable you to take possession of it. And then one day you do. And I think of these guys as going back to Hamburg and being young kids and George wanting this guitar, but he has to settle for this one. It's just all cool stuff and I get vicariously, the excitement they must have had when these things were new to them. So it's all cool.
- [62:26]
C
Yeah. Imagine the excitement of Paul receiving the lost bass after, what, 50 years?
- [62:31]
A
Yeah.
- [62:32]
C
And that must have been pretty cool
- [62:33]
A
long after you had no reason to think it even still existed anymore.
- [62:37]
C
And it wasn't Hawkwind. Just make that clear.
- [62:42]
A
A rare guitar John Lennon played on the recording of the Beatles hit song Paperback Writer is expected to fetch up to £620,000 at auction. Lennon gave his Gretsch 6120 guitar to his cousin David Birch in November 1967, a year after the hit single was produced in April 1996 at London's Abbey Road Studios. Mr. Burch, who grew up alongside Lennon in Liverpool, was given the guitar when he visited his older cousin at his Kenwood home in Weybridge, Surrey. He asked the Beatle if he had one that he no longer wanted as he was trying to form his own band with friends.
- [63:11]
B
I was just cheeky enough to ask him for a guitar and he gave me the Gretchen, of course. I was very pleased, of course, as simple as that. Really sounds a bit cheeky, but didn't seem cheeky at the time. Why did I sell it? Well, I'm not getting any younger. I've had it 47 years, and it was just in the bedroom, you know, I used to pick it up every now and then and play around with it.
- [63:37]
A
After leaving the Gretsch factory in New York, the guitar has only had two documented owners, Lennon and Mr. Birch. According to auction house tracksauction.com the instrument is one of the most significant Lennon guitars to come on the market in the last 30 years.
- [63:50]
B
It's come directly from John Lennon's cousin, who was given it by John Lennon in 1967, and he's had it ever since. Which, you know, for collectors of Beatles memorabilia to have a provenance like that is exceptional. Secondly, there are photographs documenting John Lennon playing this Gretsch guitar during the making of Paperback Writer in Abbey Road Studios in 1966. So, again, fantastic. You know, we have photographs of him actually playing it. And thirdly is that there are certain marks in the wood grain, particularly on the headstock of the guitar, that we can match up to those photographs of John Lennon playing it.
- [64:33]
A
Something about the Beatles created and hosted by Robert Rodriguez, executive producer Rick Way, title song performed by the Corgis, Something about the Beatles is an evergreen podcast.
- [64:57]
B
Bartels of California in Riverside, California, in the 1960s, they're making some new models of guitars. This is a very rare one because this was a prototype. It's a fretless guitar that. That's what makes it unique. And it's pretty much the only one that was made by Bartels. So 1964-68, maybe during that period. And then the story goes that the company owner has always said he gave one to John Lennon and he gave one to Jimi Hendrix. This is the Lennon one? Yeah. So, Ray, you're the owner, how did it come into your business? In the 70s and 80s, I was doing lots of recording sessions on guitar, and one of the things I used to do regularly was sessions for handmade films. Okay. The George Harrison started, I was asked to play guitar, which was great, had lots of laughs. And at the end of a session, George said, I'm not sure what to do with this, but look, you have a go. And I just got you know, handed the guitar. It's a strange old thing to play because it's, it's not like fret. So I mean it can play things like, Things like that. But I played a few notes. He said, yeah, he said, you're definitely getting more out of it than I am. It's doing better for you. Why don't you have it? That's not a bad, you know, accolade. No, it's greater than George Harris. It's actually got to think of it. Yeah, it is. But you know, I mean, at the time it was quite, it was, it was quite rock and roll. This is not the greatest of rock and roll guitar unless you're going to play slide or something like that. Okay, now the icing on the cake is, is the photograph you brought along with you today. Because this is George Harrison in his house, a Friar park. And here's George standing at the back. And just down here on the left hand side is the guitar in question. And you can just see the, the maker's name and the design below. So quite categorically that puts that guitar in this room in George Harrison's house. So I think that's 100% certainty. It is what it is. Well, thank you for bringing it along and playing for us. But we have talked about values. You know, to a guitar collector, it's initially a very rare guitar, then to somebody who's, you know, a Beatles fan, you know, to own a guitar that was once owned by both John Lennon and George Harrison. Can you get a better history? Two of the most important rock stars of the 20th century. Yeah, yeah. I would suggest that at auction, I wouldn't be surprised if it made between three and four hundred thousand pounds. Should I have a drink? Wow, amazing. That's, that's really, that surprises me because there has been on the stand, you know, just playing it, I never really thought about value as George being a mate and all that big. Yeah. Wow. So good thing you were there on the day in the recording session and he gave it to you. Yeah. And here it is today. Well, thank you very much. Yeah, give us another fun. Oh, give you another song. Right. Okay.
- [68:21]
A
In 2021, the wife and son of Alex Murdock, an attorney from a prominent South Carolina family, were found shot to death. The story captivated the nation. That's when we began the podcast Impact of Influence. In March of 2023, Alec Murdoch was convicted of murdering his wife Maggie and their 22 year old son Paul. The latest Alec Murdoch was granted a new trial by the South Carolina Supreme
- [68:42]
B
Court, citing jury tampering.
- [68:44]
A
The case will be tried before the end of the year and we will be on top of it. Get impact of influence wherever you get your favorite podcast.