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- [00:00]
Robert Rodriguez
This podcast is brought to you in part by Magical Mystery Camp Coming to Big Indian New York, just two and a half hours from New York City the week of Paul McCartney's 84th birthday, June 16th through the 19th. Featuring a number of special guests including the Fab Foe as well as singer, songwriter, musicians Martin Sexton, Gail ann Dorsey, Cindy Cash Dollar and more. For more information, check out magical mysterycamp.com something
- [00:35]
Amelia Davis
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- [01:32]
Archive or historical audio clips
remember this sound this year Kya welcomes the Beatles back to
- [01:39]
Robert Rodriguez
San Francisco in a mammoth Candlestick park spectacular.
- [01:43]
Archive or historical audio clips
The date is Monday, August 29 and the place is Candlestick Park.
- [01:46]
Robert Rodriguez
You'll see better. You'll hear better too with a special Beatles sound system.
- [01:49]
Archive or historical audio clips
See the Fabulous Four in the last show of their biggest American tour. Be part of the fantastic KYA reception for the Beatles. Don't be left out.
- [01:56]
Robert Rodriguez
Get your tickets now. Just 5, 6 and $7 including all handling charts. Send your check or money order payable to KYA with a self address stamp envelope. The time is now.
- [02:05]
Archive or historical audio clips
The Beatles are coming and they want you there. Come on, come on, come on baby.
- [02:23]
Robert Rodriguez
Hello and welcome to episode 327 of Something about the Beatles Podcast. Now historically I have had on the show as guests a few photographers. I've had Ethan Russell on twice. I've had Tom Murray on, who is one of the mad Day out photographers. Seems like there's somebody else that I'm not remembering right this moment. But it's a bit of a challenge when you're discussing a visual medium on an auditory medium of podcasting. So you can only hope that we paint a good picture with whatever we're talking about or that you are otherwise inspired and motivated to go check out whatever book might be connected to the photographer's work. And so it is in this case. Now the name Jim Marshall There was two big Jim Marshalls in the late 20th century. One was the one we're talking about today, the photographer. There was the other one in England who I got to meet once, and he was the guy behind Marshall amps who had a music shop that Pete Townsend famously describes stealing guitars off the wall from. But that is not who we're talking about today. We're talking about the American one from San Francisco who, if you don't know the name, you certainly, if you're a fan of rock from the 60s and into the 70s, any number of iconic images you have seen came from Jim Marshall. Just off the top of my head, there's the Hendrix ones at Monterey, he also shot Monterey. There is the Johnny Cash flipping the bird picture, which a lot of people have seen. There is album covers of some jazz greats of the early 60s. There is the Bob Dylan in Greenwich Village shot rolling the tire down the street. Any number of things. And if you've seen the photography, the pictures taken at Candlestick park of the Beatles last show on August 29, 1966, chances are a lot of what you've seen is from Jim Marshall, who photographed them on stage, but also photographed them backstage in the warm up to them coming on stage while the other acts were playing. So as it happens, he was selected by them. He had shot their earlier show in San Francisco at Kyle palace in 1965. They liked his work and they requested him. He was the only photographer allowed to photograph them backstage at Candlestick on this auspicious occasion, which they were well aware of, even if the public wasn't so much. So that Paul requested their PR guy, Tony Barrow, to record the last show on cassette, which he did. So a lot of history going on at night and this was the guy that they wanted to document it. So his pictures have this great intimacy showing them basically killing time, either hanging out with guests that were invited, like Joan Baez and Ralph Gleason, or doodling on the tablecloth and being interviewed by various DJs at the time. But it's very interesting fly on the wall stuff. And this being the 60th year, Amelia Davis, who has been the curator of Jim's work, she worked with him beginning in the 1990s as sort of his right hand person, running his office and tending to things. And if you've ever seen the documentary on Jim Marshall called Show Me the Picture, the Jim Marshall Story, which came out in 2019, she figures very prominently in that she is essentially his curator and the person keeping his archive going, responsible for a number of books that have come out focused on one subject or another, and there's plenty more that the public hasn't really seen to this point, like his street photography, which hopefully someday will be disseminated in some fashion as well. So Amelia Davis is my guest on the show, and you probably are aware right now of a book that's just come out this week on the photography of Jim Marshall at Candlestick park covering the Beatles last show. As it happens, the book is actually bigger than that last show. There's all kinds of other photography in there, including some stuff he did at Cow Palace. There's some Stones pictures and some stuff that has nothing to do with music at all. But you'll see it if you are moved to check it out, and I would urge that you do. You can also look around online. There is a CBS News segment that was done on it recently and a lot of online coverage about this book. What makes it a little more exciting for me is that I can claim to have a very small consulting role in the production of this book, brought into the project by Alison Bomstadt, your friend and mine. And we were able to track down one of the mystery figures seen backstage in some of these pictures, blonde woman wearing dark glasses. We were able to track her down. We were able to find out who she was. We both had conversations with her. And it's one of these wonderful sort of side benefits of getting asked to help out on something, somebody you wouldn't have met ordinarily or even been aware of. Suddenly you have met and they end up being a wonderful person. And that was just a really cool side benefit to this whole thing. But no less so than meeting and connecting with Amelia Davis, who I had a wonderful talk with. And we're not through yet, folks, because we've been talking about doing an online event closer to the 60th. So we're talking late August doing something with guests and enabling you listeners to chime in and ask questions. And it'll be put up probably as a show at least, and a YouTube video. So you've got that to look forward to. Something we've talked about in the newsletter, which if you're not already a subscriber, just shoot an email subject line newsletter to satb2010mail to get subscribed. But in the meanwhile, here's our conversation on the life and legacy of Jim Marshall built around this show, which is a pretty singular event. One last thing, Magical Mystery Camp is a sponsor of the show, as is Distrokid. You can get 30% off an annual membership of DistroKid by going to distrokid.com VIP SATB and Magical Mystery Camp. Check out at magical mysterycamp.com. it's coming up really quick, folks, and I will see you there. Meanwhile, my talk with Amelia. I got it a week or so ago, whenever I got it and I was like, I can't just scan this. I need to savor it, go through it. This is way too beautiful. The layout's fantastic, everything about it. And there's so much in here. I was not expecting so much that is beyond Candlestick. Not only other Beatles from 65 and Kyle palace, but you got Stones, you've got the mother of James Chaney as part of the Mississippi thing that happened. And you've got the jazz guys in there. And it's like, I know that in general Jim Marshall, to the people who know his name and know who he is and don't confuse him for the guy in England, started Marshall Amp Company. Is that you know his photography even if he didn't know his name? Yes. I mean, everybody knows the Johnny Cash middle finger picture. There's plenty of other things. The Hedrick stuff. There's plenty of shots. A handful that as Beetle people, we know we're taken at their last show of them walking onto the field, the George and Paul grinning at each other on stage. It's like, oh, my God, what an eye. And the ability to capture the fleeting moment that was there and gone in a second. And it's here forever now.
- [10:00]
Amelia Davis
I know.
- [10:01]
Robert Rodriguez
Good on you. Oh, my God. So I just feel like more people should know the name Jim Marshall and should be savoring it. Thank God We've got a 2019 documentary that honors his work and gives you the overview at least. And for anybody who hasn't seen it, it is currently for free on Tubi in the States called Show Me the the Story of Jim Marshall from 2019. And you were part of that as well.
- [10:23]
Amelia Davis
We won awards for that too, which was great. You know, it was tough because doing a documentary is very hard to get funding and you don't really make any money off of a documentary. But I really, really wanted to do it to show the entirety of Jim Marshall and who he was and what he photogr. Because so many people just know him for rock and roll, music, photography, he did so much more than that. Because before there was rock and roll, there was folk, there was jazz, there was street photography, there were civil rights, and Jim was in the middle of all of that. And I really often wonder if he hadn't left New York at the end of 64 and came back to San Francisco. I still think he would be doing music, but I think it would be a very different kind of photography because he was really a photojournalist, and he even called himself a reporter with a camera. And that's really how he felt. You know, he really thought that he was reporting things that he saw that were really, really important that he wanted to save for history and future generations. And so he was good at allowing us to see what he saw through his camera lens, you know, and that's what he was so good at. I never feel as if I'm a voyeur on the outside looking in. I always feel like I'm Jim Marshall looking at what he's experiencing and viewing at the moment. And I think that's what's so magical about his photography is you feel like you're part of it. You feel like you're a participant. And even with the Beatles, you feel like you're right there experiencing it with them. That's something that I think Jim was really born with. And you can't teach that. No matter how hard you try, you cannot teach that. And that's what Jim had a natural gift of being able to look through the camera and show us what he's seeing and allowing us to feel like we're there with him and experiencing it, you know?
- [12:36]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah, exactly. Right? Unlike, let's say, everybody, I think that is any kind of rock fan knows the name Annie Leibowitz, but she's really a portrait photographer. She does stellar work, but that's what she does. The full quote from Jim was, I'm like a reporter, only with a camera. I react to my subject in their environment, and if it's going well, I get so immersed in it that I become one with the camera.
- [13:01]
Amelia Davis
Yep.
- [13:02]
Robert Rodriguez
Amen, brother. The word you use, participant. You feel like you are caught up in the moment with them. When I look at his photography, I saw some of it when I started getting familiar with Teenset magazine, because after 66, it seems like a lot of his stuff was either making the covers or the spreads inside. And it's just stellar, just amazing stuff that brings you into the moment. But it was reminding me a bit of Life magazine, which was this photo journals magazine that existed for years and years. If people don't know what Life is, it was a news weekly that was built around pictures rather than reporting per se, and seared into the DNA of generations. Are these dramatic or Compelling moments that they captured. Like you say, if he hadn't left New York for San Francisco, maybe he would have gone in that direction. And I was very surprised. I had never heard before because all I knew him from was his music stuff. I knew about the jazz, jazz stuff and some of the folk, but I didn't know he went to Mississippi in 1964 when Schwerner, Cheney and Goodman were murdered, and he documented that. There's a beautiful picture you have in the book of Chaney's mother. So it's just breathtakingly beautiful and artistic, but also capturing the history of the moment. And it's. It's just stunning that one guy was in so many places and. And he goes back to San Francisco and this is like ground zero of the counterculture of the 60s West Coast. It's the right place, right time, with the right skill set. I was wondering, you talked about having that eye, having the capacity of recognizing the moment, knowing when to click the shutter. That's one thing that can't be taught for sure. But you knew him and worked with him. And I'm wondering if. Because everything I've read, he had this larger than life, boisterous, big personality. Do you think that that entered into that, maybe gave him a layer of guts to pursue what he did?
- [15:00]
Amelia Davis
For sure. I mean, Jim could be very chameleon like, too. So he knew if he was in a situation with, like, James Chaney's mother, when she had found out that her son's body had been found that was murdered by the Ku Klux Klan, he kind of melted into the background and captured her face and what she was feeling at that time. Because you couldn't be larger than life in that situation. Right. And a lot of his street photography, too. It's as if he wasn't there. But when you get into the music, because of what music was, especially rock and roll, you know, it was everybody kind of puffing their chests and being very masculine and who's on top. And so Jim would definitely do that. And sometimes he would test people by saying things to shock you. And if you were shocked and horrified and clutched your pearls, he knew that that's not somebody he wanted to be friends with. But if you laughed and threw it back to him, he was like, okay, you passed the Marshall test. That's really was his test. But also he was real. And I think once he became friends, he wasn't just a photographer. He became friends with the musicians that he photographed. He. And once he became friends with them, he was Allowed into their inner circle. And that's where he really. They forgot that he had a camera on, you know, because Jim always had about five Leicas around his neck, loaded with black and white and with color. And so one of the things is that that's who Jim was. So they always knew Jim with cameras around his neck and there. So he kind of would blend into the background and be snapping these very intimate photos of people without them even having a second thought about it. Because that was just Jim.
- [16:50]
Robert Rodriguez
Right? Or being made to feel self conscious.
- [16:53]
Amelia Davis
Exactly. And that was kind of the beauty of it. But, yes, he could be very. And I think part of it, too, for Jim, being this larger than life guy, it was kind of a mask because he really was extremely empathetic. He really, really was. And I think a lot of times he didn't show some of his street photography or some of his other photography was because it was so personal to him, that if he showed it to the world and they didn't like it, I think he would have been really devastated and hurt. So rather than feel that feeling, he didn't show it. But part of the beauty about Jim leaving me all of his photography is that he's not the roadblock. He's not there anymore. So what I can do is now go through and share these beautiful, intimate photographs with the world. And that's really what I'm trying to do. Because, you know, Jim would get stuck in a rut where he'd show the same photos over and over and over again because he knew they sold and he knew that people loved them. And so he's like, all right, well, I'll just keep doing that. And he wouldn't vary. And so he's got an incredible archive. And so for me, it's one of my purposes, holding Jim's archive is to share that, to share those moments with the world and really show the depth and the breadth of Jim Marshall and who he was. And he captured pieces of history that will never happen again. You know, they just won't. And I'm just so happy Jim was there to capture it so that we can show people and show future generations, especially now. You know, Jim photographed a lot of protests because in the 60s, there were a lot of protests going on, you know, anti war, anti nuclear armament, all these different things. And Jim photographed those, and they were peaceful protests. And by looking at those, I think a lot of the younger generation now is feeling, what can we do? Is it going to make a difference? And so if they look back at these Photographs that Jim took of peaceful protesting and really rallying and saying, this is. This is, you know, this is not what we want. I'm hoping that they will really gain strength in saying, okay, history shows us what we can do and what it can accomplish, and let's do that again. And so to gain strength and motivation from seeing Jim's photos from the past.
- [19:24]
Robert Rodriguez
Yes, someone has blazed that trail. We've been here before, seized the moment. Look to that example. You can make a difference. Absolutely.
- [19:32]
Amelia Davis
You can make a difference. And even in. Through, you know, music as well, folk music, a lot of it was protest songs, too. And, you know, that really made a difference and had an impact. And, you know, one of the things, I think, veering back to the Mississippi, if I can for a second, Jim. We like to say that Jim was there for the music but found history along the way. So he was actually at the Newport Folk Festival with Joan Baez. Jim was very good friends with Joan BAEZ. And in 63, after the Newport Folk Festival, she traveled down to Mississippi to rally for voting rights. So Jim went down there as well. And that's how he then came into the whole voting rights and trying to help sign up blacks to vote.
- [20:23]
Robert Rodriguez
Right. Freedom Riders and.
- [20:25]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, Freedom Summer and Freedom Vote. Freedom vote was actually 63 and then 64. He was back down there for Freedom Summer. And that's when Chaney, Schwemmer and Goodman were murdered. But, you know, so much of his stuff does come from music, from photographing the music also, and then kind of takes him other places.
- [20:46]
Robert Rodriguez
Right. There's so much stuff to talk about. You'd mentioned his sort of testing you and how he was. It reminded me that was very. How the Beatles were as individual people. You'd get in if you didn't take their abuse. You pushed back, gave as good as you got. And you yourself have a story of meeting cute with Jim when you guys connected. If you want to share that.
- [21:08]
Amelia Davis
Sure, sure. So I'm a photographer myself. I studied photography at UC Davis and got a BA in studio art. And so came back to San Francisco and was trying to, you know, just starting to show in galleries and show my photography. But the photography I studied was fine art photography. So I did not know who Jim Marshall was. It was more, you know, Helen Levitt and Cartier Bresson and all those documentarian photographers that we studied. And then my mother was diagnosed with breast cancer, and so her only option was a modified radical mastectomy. And so in going through that journey with my mother and seeing the devastation that happened, my photography took a completely different turn. And I used my camera. I said, you know, no woman should have to feel alone and mutilated like this. And I took the camera and photographed, started photographing women with breast cancer and their journey through breast cancer. And my mother was the first photograph. Unfortunately, she passed away before the book was published, but I dedicated the book to her. And so my friend was having her 30th birthday party, and unbeknownst to me, Jim was there. And I grew up two houses down from my friend, and Jim was like. Was there all the time because her father was Jim's lawyer and got him out of trouble. But I didn't meet Jim either then. So when I went to the 30th birthday party, I was there, and there was this little man with a. Like around his. His neck. And he kind of shuffled over to me, and he's like, hey, how's it going? I said, hi. And he goes, hey, I'm Jim Marshall. Who are you? And I go, I'm Amelia Davis. And he goes, what do you do? And I said, I'm a photographer. I said, what do you do? And he smiled, and he goes, I'm a photographer. And so we started talking, and he said, where do you live? And it turns out we literally lived a block away from each other and didn't know it. And then he said, what are you working? What are you doing? And I said, well, I'm working on this breast cancer book and having a really hard time getting it published because it's such a intense subject and graphic, because that was the whole point, to show what you look like. And he goes, God, I've had so many friends that have breast cancer. I think that's really important. I would love to help you however I can. Can. And then he goes, wait a minute. When he found out where I lived, he goes, are you gay? And I looked at him, I go, yes, I am. And he goes, oh, I'm always attracted to gay women and married women. And I go, that's your problem, not mine. And he laughed. And he goes, I think we're going to be really good friends. And so we exchanged phone numbers. The next day he did. He called me up and he said, hey, you know, I really liked you. Can we meet for coffee? So just down the block, we met at a cafe, had some coffee. And then he goes, you know what? I'm in need of assistant. He goes, would you. I like you. You want to be my assistant? And I was like, sure. I need Work. I'm a struggling artist. Yeah, of course. And he goes, come on, I'll show you my apartment. So we walked up, he opened the door, and it was a Victorian railroad apartment where you have just these long hallways all the way down and covered with one iconic photo after the other. Jimi Hendrix burning his guitar, Johnny Cash flipping the bird. Beatles coming on stage at Candlestick Park. And I was mortified. And I looked at him and I go, oh, my God, I had no idea that was you. And he looked at me and he goes, that's why I liked you. From then on, it was just, you know, I was there with Jim, and we became really, really good friends and became part of the family. And, you know, he could swear and he could just be obnoxious, and I would just yell back at him. I wouldn't take it. You know, he'd call me awful names, and I would just scream back at him. And I think he was shocked because a lot of people wouldn't do that. And so he really liked that I would just put him in his place. So that's my Jim Marshall story. And, you know, Jim never had any children because his photos were his children. You know, he had two failed marriages because photography was 24, seven for Jim. It really was his first love. And that was all consuming for him. And so he told me that he goes, the only person I really trust to take care of my children when I'm gone is you. So when Jim passed away in 2010, I inherited over a million babies to care for and, you know, kind of share with the world. And that's what I'm trying to do with all these different books that we're doing, is, you know, really share Jim's children that he really protected very much when he was alive and made sure that people, if you dared use a Jim Marshall photo without his permission, you would get the wrath of Jim Marshall. He was known for. He would not let people use his photos without giving him credit or licensing them. And so Jim was very, very much, I think, ahead of his time in that he had a business sense, too. He knew that he was going to hang on to all those copyrights because if he let them go, they would not be in his control. They would not be his children. And so he always. Even if he. He did a photo story for somebody like look or Life magazine, he retained the copy. He was not. He was never an. He was an independent contractor. He was never work for hire. So he always made sure that he was an independent contractor because he retained those Copyrights, which was so smart. A lot of the photographers didn't. Didn't do that. They worked for Sony or Columbia Studios, and because of that, they did not own those copyrights. The music labels did. So Jim was really, really smart in that sense and ahead of his time in demanding that he own those copyrigh.
- [27:13]
Robert Rodriguez
It's not unlike a songwriter owning their own publishing.
- [27:16]
Amelia Davis
Right.
- [27:16]
Robert Rodriguez
Those are your babies, and somebody else can go out into the world and make a fortune off your labor. And he saw that that was something he did not want to find himself in that situation. So good on him.
- [27:27]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, yeah. Really good on him.
- [27:29]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it sounds like he found the perfect curator for his work that's going to present it with the sensitivity that his babies deserve as well as the curation around it. You've got in this book, you've got Joel Salvin providing the essay. And he's a fantastic writer. Great writing chops, and again, with humor and colorful descriptiveness, is able to. If there's any enhancing of what the photos do, he's doing it in the text, in the prose, which is a great package in this whole presentation of this. So, yeah, I was gonna say, as a fan, I'd mentioned teenset before I was aware, and clearly he must have had a good relationship with Judy Sims and to trust that as a platform for his work with covers and interior spreads. But as a Beatle fan, there was a book published, I think, in the late 80s called tomorrow never Knows by Eric Lefkowitz, and it was touting the Jim Marshall photography in his lifetime, and it sufficed for the 80s. It was a nice photo essay of Candlestick park, the last performance of the Beatles. And I don't even know if it's in print anymore, but. But when I first found out this was coming together, this project here, I was thinking, thank God, because the bar has been raised and what we're willing to accept for photographic books, for Beetle books, for history, for whatever you want to talk about. And I know Chronicle Books does great work. You've got a series of other books with his photography. So I was thrilled to find out this thing was coming. And now having the book in my hands, it's like everything I would have wished for. And a few things I hadn't even considered putting in contact sheets the way you did throughout the book, Sue. You could see every single frame he shot. You could see which ones became the iconic ones. But it's like every one of these, every one is. Yeah, it's like, damn it, Published every single frame and had a wonderful, beautiful book. So it lacks nothing in anything. I would have wanted more. It's like you covered everything and things I hadn't even thought of in this book. Beyond the fact that this is the 60th year of their last tour and their last show at Candlestick park, was there any other particular intent you had with presenting this, with the way you approached it? I know that when we came into contact, it seemed like very much part of your mission. I want to identify everybody seen backstage in these pictures that nobody to this point has taken the trouble to document.
- [29:53]
Amelia Davis
Exactly. That was my main goal. I was like, I need to identify as many people as I can. Because for me, when I look through a photo book, I want to know who everybody is and I want to know their little stories. And I think with the Beatles, with this very important piece of history, we need to know who was there, you know, and what happened. And so that was part of my goal. And thank you so much for helping me identify the people in there. Plus, I think it's fun, like Ewa. All in. All in. Who was Miss Teen International 1966? Because I had always wondered. I know some people may have seen it and some people may have not, but there's an armored car with this beautiful blonde coming out of the door with two guards on either side of the door. And I was like, who is that? You can't find that. You couldn't find that information anywhere. So when I heard the negative scanned, we could blow it up really big. And then we noticed that there was. It looks like there was kind of a beauty sash on. And so we started to make out the letters and go, it looks like it says Ms. Te. Ms. Teen something. And so my wife Benita, helped me with a lot of the research, and we looked online and there was Miss Teen International 1966, and there she was.
- [31:16]
Robert Rodriguez
It was so stunning to see that, because it's like, if you're a Beatle person, you know exactly that. You know that name because she was the star of that film. Two years later with Ringo Candy, it's like, is the world that small that he met her two years before? That's incredible.
- [31:31]
Amelia Davis
And she went on like. And she was in la, which was the concert before San Francisco.
- [31:38]
Robert Rodriguez
Oh, Dodger Stadium.
- [31:40]
Amelia Davis
Yeah. And so she went with them from Dodger Stadium to San Francisco. So it's just really fun. And I thought people would love those little tidbits like that.
- [31:50]
Robert Rodriguez
Well, it tells a story unto itself. The Beatles went into this, knowing this Is it? We're done. This is the end. I think Paul was the last holdout throughout that tour. He loved performing live, as we know to this very day, but it was a hardest sell with him until 66. Starting off with the we're more popular than Jesus bonfires that greet them when they come to America and cherry bombs going off in Memphis. And just the conditions there was the show that got rained out and then they had to perform in a downpour on another stage and travel 300 miles in between. It was ridiculous. And we just had a conversation on the show about that last tour, how their development as artists had so far outstripped the infrastructure to do a live presentation of it. It was like two different errors and they were like essentially wearing two hats, being their own tribute act on stage while they're crafting with Revolver and their singles this amazing, groundbreaking, paradigm shifting work that did not have a place on the concert stage in 1966. So, of course, this is Red. It makes no sense that we continue to do this. So knowing that they're going into San Francisco, this is it. We're done with this obligation after this. Who they have around them is part of the story. And as we know, with the work that was done for this book, Joan Baez, she's a pal, she brings her sisters. And I hadn't thought about it until I was looking at the book, seeing the pictures. Well, Mimi Farina was recently widowed that year. Her husband Richard was killed earlier that year on her birthday in April. So she would have been probably still in a state of bereavement at the time. And maybe that's part of. We're going to cheer you up. Here's the Beatles, who Joan was already close with from meeting them on previous tours, and they spoke highly of her. If you listen to some of the press conferences, who do you like as far as American artists goes? And they always have a kind word to say for Joan, which is very sweet.
- [33:54]
Archive or historical audio clips
We met some good people, like Bob Dylan, Joan Byers, you know, and I enjoy meeting people out there.
- [34:00]
Robert Rodriguez
But then they bring their neighbor, they
- [34:02]
Amelia Davis
bring a little girl.
- [34:03]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah, Naomi Marcus, the 10 year old who I was happy to see again. I'd seen her picture in the earlier Eric Lefkowitz book and didn't give her a second thought. But now I'm like, I bet she's got a story. And I googled around, I found 1991 on the 25th anniversary. She told her story of how that thing happened. And she walked away from the show that day. With one of Ringo's rings and John's shirt.
- [34:27]
Amelia Davis
Oh, my God, really? Yeah.
- [34:29]
Robert Rodriguez
They were looking kindly upon the little girl, the one child that they saw that night in their dressing room.
- [34:36]
Amelia Davis
I know. And then I just. I just love that Jim captured them in the locker room. So a lot of people don't realize that Candlestick park was. Yeah, the baseball park and baseball. Yeah. And so they were in. There was no backstage. It was the locker room, so. And Jim was there. And they're bored out of their minds because we're just so used to, you know, you see these rock and rollers and you think, oh, it's so great to go on tour and have all these adoring fans. Well, before you go out there, you're bored. You're sitting backstage and doodle. And they, you know, rather than drinking, they were having endless cups of tea and they were chain smoking and they were doodling on the tablecloth. And you can really see that and feel that in the photographs that Jim took. You really feel that they're like, oh, my God, when is this gonna end?
- [35:29]
Archive or historical audio clips
There comes a time on every Beatle tour when the Beatles and those traveling with them begin to forget which month of the year it is and which day of the week. It's the kind of thing that only people connected with these trips can really understand. Days and nights begin to fuse together and it's. And it's hard to remember where you were yesterday, let alone where you're going to be today and tomorrow. There's so much traveling done that everyone tends to lose a sense of time. And no one thinks it at all crazy if you suddenly turn around to them and say, excuse me, but where are we? Well, I think that just about everyone has reached this stage on the present tour. And as I walked down the gangway of the plane tonight, it was obvious that the strain is beginning to show on most of us. The Beatles are beginning to look a little weary. And the small team of people, press and radio people traveling with them, look as though they're going to collapse at any moment with battle fatigue. It's not that we're not enjoying ourselves, we are. But when you're continually flying in and out of different time zones and making reports to papers and radio stations at all times of the day and night, the hectic way of living begins to
- [36:29]
Robert Rodriguez
show you can feel the tedium. Absolutely. There's moments where they're smiling and clearly they're having animated conversations. And that was one of the things that intrigued me in seeing these pictures now like the full breadth of the experience, which most of it is before they're on stage, however much time Jim was backstage with them. While the opening acts are going on, the Remains, the Circle, the Ronettes and Ralph J. Gleason is there. He's noted as a jazz critic based in San Francisco. Also becomes co founder of Rolling Stone magazine with Jan Wenner a year later. But he's there having conversations, sitting next to John Lennon. And one thing that was really intriguing to me was Barry Feinstein, one of the renowned rock photographers who would go on to shoot Bob Dylan many, many times. He'd been married to Mary Travers. Shoots, of course, the All Things Must Pass album cover and the poster with that. So here he is backstage, not with a camera, he's recording. And so the first thing I'm thinking is, what did he record and where is it?
- [37:31]
Amelia Davis
I know. Well, he was recording the audience sound, you know, their cheer and they're. And they're talking and it was just bizarre. That's what he was there for. And he wanted it for some project he was doing that had to do with, you know, concerts and the audience.
- [37:48]
Robert Rodriguez
What an amazing thing. It gives you hope that, well, now that we know this happened, maybe someday it'll surface. That would be an amazing thing. I was looking to see in my own archive of interviews. I found I have a recording of the Kenny Everett one. Because Kenny Everett, long before he becomes sort of a Beatles fixture, we have an interview he does with them in the studio at EMI the first week of the White Album sessions, which ended up being pressed as a promotional 45 and circulated and bootlegged through the years. Later on, he is tasked with taking the individual tapes of the Beatles last two Christmas messages and editing them together into a releasable form. So he is this BBC broadcaster later on and this British institution, but there he is at Candlestick interviewing them and I found I actually have a recording of that talk.
- [38:40]
Amelia Davis
Oh, wow.
- [38:41]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah. Have you ever kept anything that's been thrown at you?
- [38:44]
Archive or historical audio clips
Yes. Or not. You know, I always scout around looking on seeds and tell Mal, pick that up. Get that. He usually picks them all up at the end anyway. Before the sort of scavengers leap on, you know, all the sort of attendants. And I always pinch. Anything is worth having. Do they ever throw money? I was just gonna. No, don't. Don't even mention that. It'll start a craze for money throwing. Well, it would be better than something. I don't want money, though. It hurts.
- [39:09]
Robert Rodriguez
I was looking at the other Ones like Bobby Mitchell. I couldn't find a recording of that. Maybe just went out into the air and hasn't circulated since. But it would have been very intriguing because we know they weren't spilling that this was gonna be the last show. They weren't tipping their hand in advance for sure. But you listen to the Tony Barrow recording of the actual show and they let slip a little bit for their own benefit, their own amusement, that I know. This is it.
- [39:37]
Archive or historical audio clips
Thank you. Thank you, Ringo. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Lovely working with you.
- [39:49]
Robert Rodriguez
The crowd doesn't know what the hell they're talking about. But it's just funny, that level of awareness of how momentous this occasion is. And you look at these pictures for the time that he's backstage with them before they take the stage. And not a hint of self consciousness. It's like he's the fly on the wall, capturing these historic final moments of them as a performing band.
- [40:12]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, and that's the genius of Jim. Just capturing those moments, those quiet moments, reflective moments, you know, just waiting before it's. They burst out. Yeah, it's. It's amazing. And I also do love. I didn't know the Ronettes, too, that Ronnie was not there because Phil Spector would not allow Ronnie to go on tour with the Beatles because he was very jealous. And so I thought that was so interesting. I didn't know that. I found out a lot of stuff, too, in doing the research for this book. Which is fun.
- [40:47]
Robert Rodriguez
Oh, yeah. When we had first started talking and I was trying to figure out who some of these people were, I actually did reach out to Barry Tashin from the Remains. Cause he had written a book on the last tour as a whole called Ticket to Ride that was published around 1990 or something. Wonderful book. But it's not a picture book as such. It's like a tour diary. And one of his takeaways was the band the Remains. Split up after that tour because having been on the road with the Beatles, the recognition hit them. Will never be the Beatles, so what's the point? Yeah, they kind of ended their career. But yeah, it would have been nice to get further input from him. However, he is too unwell these days to really contribute anything. And he said what he's got to say in the book. So we don't have that anymore. This podcast is brought to you in part by Magical Mystery Camp. Coming to Big Indian New York, Just two and a half hours from New York City, the week of Paul McCartney's 84th birthday, June 16th through the 19th featuring a number of special guests including the Fab Foe as well as singer, songwriter, musicians Martin Sexton, Gail Ann Dorsey, Cindy Cash Dollar and more. Now speaking of somebody who was there last year and I will be back again this year. It is a fabulous experience. If you love the Beatles, if you love music, if you love learning about the Beatles, if you play music yourself, it's got it all. Magical Mystery Camp features nightly musical performances, interactive workshops, jam sessions, chance to relax in a beautiful locale, and lots more. If you're a musician or simply love the Beatles and want to learn more, this is a summer event for you. Check out magical mystery camp.com something this episode of Something about the Beatles is sponsored by Distrokid. Distrokid is a service that distributes music into the streaming platforms and also collects your royalty payments. It enables you to share with collaborators. It also has a feature that will polish up your recordings called Mixia. Basically it is a way to get your best foot forward out there before a listening audience, making your music shine and get it into all the proper channels and make sure you get paid for your work. As a special offer to listeners of Something about the Beatles and I know there are many who are musicians, you could take advantage of this 30% off their first year subscription by going to distrokid.com that's D I S T R O K I D.com VIP SATB good for 30% off your first year of subscribing to Distrokid. So check it out if you are music makers and artists out there and make your music shine. The Distrokid app is available. Go to the app or Play Store to download it. One of the things I was aware of that you in this book give the follow up, which I hadn't heard before, was the fate of that doodle tablecloth that they're all doodling on, including Joan, the four Beatles. And you've got all these wonderful gym pictures showing the work in progress as it were. And I remembered reading that it had gone on display in a restaurant like the week after and had somebody smashed the glass and stole it and that was that. Yeah, I did not know the story of it being recovered.
- [44:18]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, well, it was actually Simpsons Catering, which was in north beach in San Francisco and they were so excited that they were going to cater the Beatles concert. And so, you know they, they came and they had white tablecloths and the waitresses and the waiters were dressed all up and it was very exciting for them. And so the Beatles. Yeah Were doodling on the tablecloth. And as a thank you to Simpsons Catering, after they gave them. They signed the tablecloth and gave it to them. And he was so excited that he did display it in his north beach restaurant in the front window. And then it didn't even last five days. Somebody crashed the window, stole it, and then it was gone. And then what ended up happening was nobody knew what happened. It went underground. Nobody knew where it had gone. They couldn't locate it. They couldn't. And then finally this, I guess it was, was a cousin, I think, or son or nephew of the person that stole it. Found this tablecloth and was like, oh, my God, this is. This isn't. I. This is a piece of history that was stolen. I can't. I don't want this. I want to return it to the rightful owner. And so then contacted the son, you know, the father had passed away, and contacted the son and said, I have this stolen tablecloth. I want to make sure you get it back. And so gave it to him. And then, of course, they. They said, thank you. And then they put it up for auction at Sotheby's. I think it sold for $88,000 in 2022. But Sotheby's contacted Jim Marshall Photography, and the way to actually authenticate the tablecloth was through Jim Marshall's photos of that concert. And so we provided the photographs that authenticated the tablecloth that was then auctioned off for $88,000.
- [46:12]
Robert Rodriguez
That was such an amazing thing. I hadn't heard any of that. And just that you guys have got the pictures to settle the provenance. Beyond a doubt. And God bless this guy, this relative, for wanting to do the right thing. That is so exceptional. That's, like, unheard of.
- [46:28]
Amelia Davis
I know, I know. It's incredible.
- [46:31]
Robert Rodriguez
Well, good juju on him.
- [46:33]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, exactly.
- [46:34]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah. Wow. What a cool thing. So for anybody that checks out the book, you'll see this wonderful photography of the 65 show at Kao Palace. And what I love about a lot of the stuff is that now this is the concert photography, as opposed to backstage stuff, that you can tell he's operating for some of the shots at a slower shutter speed because you get that purposeful blur of the action. It makes these pictures so kinetic and alive. We've seen plenty of footage through the years and documentaries and stuff of screaming Beatle fans, But there's something about freezing the moment, allowing you to actually study it and look at the faces of these fans and these girls and what's going on on stage. It carries a sense of snapshot of time. As you said. This is all stuff that's never gonna happen again. It was unique to the era. And Jim clearly, whether he was conscious of it or not, was capturing history for the sake of history, for the sake of future generations with that wonderful eye that he had. There's nothing that can bring you back to that like seeing these pictures and jeez, take in the images for as long as you need to and see all that's going on. Because every frame has got a lot going on, a lot for you to think about. And it's just really cool. I was just admiring the mics that they were using. I'd never seen mics like that before.
- [47:56]
Amelia Davis
I know, those were really fun, right?
- [47:58]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah, somebody's gonna identify these, but these are really cool.
- [48:01]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, yeah. No, I love. And. And for me also, I really felt like I wanted to kind of explain Jim and how he got to be asked by the Beatles to photograph them in 66. To me, wanted people to understand how that happened because he was a very well known music photographer at that point. And he had photographed a lot of not only music, but civil rights, as we said. So from 1962, even though Jim grew up in San Francisco, from 1962 to 1964, Jim moved to New York to establish himself as a music photographer with the record labels on the East Coast.
- [48:47]
Robert Rodriguez
So that's the album covers.
- [48:49]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, and that's why he made the move there. And so that's when he actually met Bob Dylan and photographed the famous Bob Dylan rolling attire down in Greenwich Village. He. He met, he did a lot of work with Verve and Atlantic for the jazz. So he did this beautiful photo essay of Monk in his little apartment in New York with the baby grand piano in the kitchen, just like these guys. Great photos that he had taken. And he literally was non stop working. He was just working, working, working. And in the proof sheet that I included, half of it you can see is the Beatles at the cow palace in 1964. No, 65. 1965. And the other half is Monterey Jazz. So you can see he literally went from one event right to the other and didn't waste a roll of film on anything. And so for me, it was kind of important to show that the progression of Jim and the photographs that he took and the style so that when it came time for the Beatles, they're like, yeah, we want Jim Marshall to photograph this and document this and immortalize this. Because he's so good at that. He's so good at Capturing those moments, not only the live moments, but behind the stage, too. And so I think it was very important for me to explain that visually, for people to visually see that I could have done. I could have done a huge section. I narrowed it down. But I think the proof sheet, too, is really important to see that Jim, he was a working photographer and he did not waste his film. They couldn't, because film was expensive at that point. So unlike digital photography, where you can shoot off a thousand frames in two seconds.
- [50:40]
Robert Rodriguez
Right. It doesn't matter.
- [50:42]
Amelia Davis
Exactly. You couldn't do that. And so he was really careful about each frame and how he photographed that particular moment. And he also had a Leica camera, which is very different. It's not a single lens reflex where you look through the lens, and that's how you see everything. It was a camera, a range finder. So you're not looking through the lens, you're looking to the side of the lens. But what that forces you to do is compose, in that your eye is composing exactly what you're going to be seeing. And so it really forces you to, in a split second, be able to compose that shot. So Jim knew what he was seeing through that viewfinder is what he would get on his film. And that was, I think, really the beauty too, of Jim's photography is he was able to see it and get it in a split second, really. And so it was a combination of the equipment he used and his eye and knowing it like it was an extension of himself, so that he was able to capture what he saw, see
- [51:54]
Robert Rodriguez
what the camera's saying.
- [51:55]
Amelia Davis
Exactly. And I think, you know, it's like a musician where their equipment is an extension of them. Right. That was Jim's instrument. The camera was his instrument. And that's how he was able to do what he did, I think. And also he could feel the music, you know, when he was composing the stuff, too. He kind of became part of that ensemble in a way, and his camera became his instrument and he became part of that. The music that was happening, the feedback
- [52:28]
Robert Rodriguez
loop between the artist and the person capturing it. Yeah, absolutely. And that's something I don't think can be emphasized enough for people that have grown up on cameras in their phones, is that you are shooting film. You are not going to see the result of what you just clicked the shutter on. Until such time as that film gets processed, you don't know. You don't know if you blew it or not.
- [52:49]
Amelia Davis
Right, right.
- [52:50]
Robert Rodriguez
But he had the experience to be able to think on the fly. It's like playing what is called the fast game of chess, where you have the boom, boom, like on the timer. To know that in the moment, as this stuff is unfolding second after second really fast, you're composing this thing, and if you blow this roll of film, if you cut off heads or don't compose it properly, you're not getting paid, dude. So.
- [53:15]
Amelia Davis
And you can't redo it, right?
- [53:17]
Robert Rodriguez
The moment's gone.
- [53:18]
Amelia Davis
Put the Beatles back together and say, hey, can we do that again? I missed it one more time.
- [53:23]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah, yeah. So the fact that you put those contact sheets in there so you could see the frames where Newport ends and the Beetle gig begins, and there's not a frame wasted, that is a testament to his travel, his not wasting a frame. He's shooting exactly what he wants to do, and he doesn't have the luxury of blowing off a thousand frames of nothing to get one good one.
- [53:43]
Amelia Davis
Exactly, exactly. And I mean, also with getting really nerdy with the cameras, but with Leica cameras, you load from the bottom, so you flip the camera over, you take the bottom off, and then you load the film in the bottom that way. So it's a very different way of loading film. And it's, you know, it's not easy. When I first started working for Jim, I had a Nikon, and he's like, I can't have an assistant with a Nikon camera. You need to have a Leica. And so he got me a Leica and I just was like, what is this thing? It is so different, but once you get used to it and you know how to use it, it's a beautiful camera and it just works so well. But for a lot of people that they didn't use those kinds of cameras. So, again, for Jim to, in a split second, be able to flip it up, load the camera, put it back, and then get on to photographing again, is extraordinary. I mean, it really is extraordinary. And the lighting situations, because you never know what the lighting's going to be like. Some may be outside natural light, or it could be inside with just the overhead lights on, whatever is there. And that's what Jim was also really good at doing, is knowing the different F stops and film speeds for that lighting situation. He did not like to set things up and use lighting. He loved to use the natural light that was there. And so, again, in a split second, okay, we've got light coming in from the window here, the overhead light here, and knowing what exposure to put the camera on so that it would come out is just amazing. It really is.
- [55:23]
Robert Rodriguez
Make sure you're not shooting into a wash of light so all you get is silhouettes and. Yeah. Try to arrange yourself so you're capturing whatever natural light is going on to the best advantage. Yeah. It's a lot of stuff to think about. And I think that again, most people are spoiled, have no idea that they got a built in automatic flash that'll do it for them if they don't realize. Yeah.
- [55:44]
Amelia Davis
Or they just shove it into, you know, and then they download it into Photoshop and.
- [55:48]
Robert Rodriguez
Right.
- [55:48]
Amelia Davis
Manipulate everything so that it looks like a great photo. That's not. That's not what these great guys, these great photographers had. You know, they really were. It was all in their hands and in their head and their eyes, you know, as one. Yeah, yeah. And that's. And you know, it was like we were saying, it's very much. It's. It's like music. It's like a musician and how they make their music. Or it's like a writer. I also think of the proof sheets kind of as a writer's notebook too, because you can kind of see the train of thought Jim was having. Just like a writer. When they're writing their songs in the notebook and making their little notes and things like that, you get kind of a insight into what they're thinking and how they're processing it. So that's what proof sheets really, I think, are kind of like a writer's notes. Their notebook gives you kind of access into something that you may not always see.
- [56:42]
Robert Rodriguez
And one of the things that underscores that he saw himself as sort of a photojournalist is just the fact that he's not spending every single frame on the act, the ostensible subject he's shooting, the event he's shooting. As has been pointed out, if there's an attractive woman in the crowd, he's not gonna. Not miss that opportunity.
- [57:03]
Amelia Davis
Exactly.
- [57:03]
Robert Rodriguez
But. But getting the signage, getting what the fans have brought, John saves or whatever it was that's in the book and reflecting the Jesus thing going on that year, the Beatle cartoon caricatures that people brought to the park, just getting the ambiance of the moment when you're in the actual concert situation, that for anybody wanting to know, well, what was the Beatles last performance like? Okay. You can look at a dozen pictures of the Beatles on stage. That's great. They're not gonna maybe be that dissimilar from any other show they did, but seeing what was going on in the park around them, noting that every seat is not filled on that night. And another unbelievable thing, at this distance, we know from the witnesses that were there, it was a cold night. It was not particularly. This is August in San Francisco. There's that Mark Twain coat.
- [57:50]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, exactly.
- [57:51]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah.
- [57:52]
Amelia Davis
It was just the system they had at the ballpark too. And so you couldn't really hear them, I don't think. And they even said that they couldn't even really hear themselves sing either. It was just not a great concert by any means, you know, it was not a success really. And you can. Jim just captured all of that and it's just so funny that they decided to put them in the middle of the field surrounded by gates, the fencing. The fencing around them. That is just so weird.
- [58:26]
Robert Rodriguez
It really underscores the sort of caged animal.
- [58:30]
Amelia Davis
Yeah.
- [58:30]
Robert Rodriguez
Feeling being trucked around in armored cars and whatever other kind of non appropriate vehicle they had to because their own safety. Not that we care, but yeah, it's incredible. So it's something that from this distance, if you're not like already a hardcore Beetle fan, might be stunning to you, realizing where concerts are now, the conditions they had to operate under.
- [58:54]
Amelia Davis
Yeah. Really? For sure.
- [58:56]
Robert Rodriguez
Uh huh. Was there anything going into this, anything that stands out in your head now that was particularly sort of mind blowing, revelatory, doing the research for this book that you had no idea before, it's like, oh my God, wow.
- [59:10]
Amelia Davis
I'm trying to think. I mean, like I said, leading up to the concert, I really. He. When Jim did photograph the Beatles in 65 the year before, you can see they're not as intimate like we're saying. And so it was more. He wasn't backstage with them, he was just photographing the crowd and the Beatles themselves. And then to juxtapose that to 1966, which is very, very different, that kind of blew my mind. Putting those two together. It's a completely different animal, completely different. And that just when you look at them together, it's like, wow, that is so different.
- [59:49]
Robert Rodriguez
Do you have a sense of what directly led to the invitation to Candlestick? Like what did they see? Was it based on reputation? Was it his work of other artists that they saw that, oh, this is the guy for us?
- [59:59]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, I think it was. I think it was based. Because like I was saying, Jim had really, by this time he had done a ton of album covers. He had done a lot of stories for magazines, for the Saturday Evening Post, for Time, Life, all of those. So they were very familiar with Jim's work. And so that's why I think they decided on Jim because he was a very well seasoned photojournalist that could not only photograph the live concert stuff, but also behind the scenes. And that he would do it tastefully. Right.
- [60:35]
Robert Rodriguez
You know, unobtrusively.
- [60:37]
Amelia Davis
Yeah. He would never publish a photo that is horrible that makes somebody look awful or in a compromising situation. So Jim also had the trust of the musicians and that was really important to him. And I think that was important for the Beatles too, that they could trust the photographer that was taking these photos and they knew they could trust Jim.
- [60:57]
Robert Rodriguez
It says a ton that they brought him in for this particular gig and at the same time they had the presence of mind. Paul to Tony Barrow. Why don't you record this show? And he captures it on his cassette. And I think, if I'm not mistaken, I don't know if I saw it in this book or I'm imagining it. Doesn't one of the images show the little tape recorder next to the stage somewhere?
- [61:18]
Amelia Davis
It does, yeah, it does.
- [61:19]
Robert Rodriguez
Okay. Yeah, so we've heard it. Yeah. As you say, it's not an exceptional show other than tipping their hand where you could read between the lines in their stage patter, at least to each other. It's sort of like an inside joke. But I will say that for the 30 seconds you get of their closing number, Long Tall Sally, to whom the book is dedicated, that he seems to be singing with particular gusto, like doesn't know that he's ever going to be on a stage again, certainly with the Beatles.
- [61:48]
Archive or historical audio clips
Thank you very much everybody, everybody. Wonderful physical orchard. We'd like to say that it's been wonderful being here in this wonderful sea land. Sorry about the weather. And we'd like to ask you to join in and clap, sing, talk, do anything. Anyway, the song is good.
- [62:33]
Robert Rodriguez
It's a cool little moment.
- [62:34]
Amelia Davis
Yeah. And I love the photos too where they're running off stage and Jim captures that they're blurred and you really feel like running. They're like, get us out of here.
- [62:44]
Robert Rodriguez
Uh huh. So kinetic. Yeah. So George can get on the plane, say, that's it, I'm not a beetle anymore, I'm done. You'd mentioned that Jim typically would have five cameras around his neck. Did he shoot any color on this occasion? Is that something? Something he didn't?
- [63:00]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, he did not have color, which is really interesting. I mean, his preference was black and white. He really loved black and white. But he always had color as well because of the rock and roll album covers. A lot of them wanted Color. So he always had a camera loaded. But for this particular instance, he didn't have any color. And I. You know, I think it. I don't know how it would feel in color. I really love the vibe of this being just in black and white.
- [63:31]
Robert Rodriguez
It feels real.
- [63:32]
Amelia Davis
It feels real. And it's really. Yeah. The bare minimum. And it was like we were saying the concert itself was in the middle of the field. It was foggy, it was cold. You know, they were behind these gates. And I think it would not have worked in color. I think it would have been a completely different vibe.
- [63:52]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah. Maybe added a layer of artificiality to it or something, even though it is real life. But it was a budget choice when they made A Hard Day's Night in black and white. It utterly suited the project that this is sort of like a pseudo documentary.
- [64:07]
Amelia Davis
Right, Right.
- [64:08]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah. It feels real. So. Yeah, it must be. Cause it's black and white. When you're doing the research, putting this together and we talked about the Beatles, specifically wanting Jim to chronicle Candlestick. Did you find. Is there a paper trail, like anything in his archive or files, like correspondence with Brian Epstein or anything like that that shows how it came to be?
- [64:30]
Amelia Davis
There isn't. And it's such a bummer. I wish there were. There isn't. You know, I looked, and he has memorabilia from other artists. When he would photograph them and send them a photo, and they'd say, thank you so much. We have a thank you card from God. The comedian Carol. Carol Channing. They went to the same high school in San Francisco. They both went to Lowell. I mean, different times, but they both went to Lowell High School. And so Jim, when he was in New York, photographed Carol Channing when she was doing a play. And so it's great. And so he would send her the photos of her, and she would write them back. Thank you so much. This is great. Yeah. So Jim. A lot of people don't realize. Jim loved Broadway. Loved Broadway. It's funny, you'd never think that Jim Marshall would love Broadway, but he loved Broadway. It was great. But he has a thank you card from her. Ogden Nash. He photographed Ogden Nash. And he's great. Cute little. He did a caricature Ogden Nash on the. Thank you. It's great.
- [65:50]
Robert Rodriguez
Wow.
- [65:51]
Amelia Davis
He's got stuff like that, but nothing from the Beatles. I know. I wish he did.
- [65:57]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah. That would be amazing. Yeah. It just kind of fell through the cracks because they went their separate ways. As you talk about in the book, making this film and going to India and going on safari and having a kid. So, yeah, I keep going on and on about what a gorgeous book this is, but there's so much you could see in here that certainly, even if you're a Beatle person, you've not seen all these pictures, I guarantee you that. And there's so much you can scrutinize and just look at and just pick up on things that you hadn't noticed before because the design is so good. You've got full page images, you've got half page images, but you've got a lot to where you're not feeling cheated. Like some books that just crowd so many images in for the sake of that this is not that it's a beautiful book, but it's not at the price point of a coffee table art book either. This is something any Beatle fan can have and enjoy and not have to save their pennies up for. So I appreciate that. Chronicle is really good about that sort of thing. It's a quality book.
- [66:58]
Amelia Davis
Yeah. They wanted, as you said, they wanted to make it affordable for everybody because the Beatles are timeless. Right. They're always. Younger generations are learning about it and falling in love with their music and who the Beatles are. And so they really wanted a book that would be affordable for everybody. But it is a beautiful coffee table book. It should be more. It should be like a $50 or $60 book and it's a $40 book, so it's great. I love Chronicle that they do that.
- [67:30]
Robert Rodriguez
I was stunned. Yeah. I expect this to be a hundred dollar book, actually.
- [67:33]
Amelia Davis
Yeah.
- [67:34]
Robert Rodriguez
Without fletching. But you get your money's worth, for sure.
- [67:37]
Amelia Davis
And the printing was really wonderful too, because Jim is known for his photographs to be very contrasty. The blacks are very black and the whites are very white. And they never. It's never muddy feeling. And so with all of Jim's books that we publish, I really make sure that they're printed the way Jim would have printed his photographs. But if you're a Jim Marshall fan, you know that's a Jim Marshall photo and that's a Jim Marshall book.
- [68:07]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah, very much. Is there anything that in the course of this book that you wished you'd been able to have access to and couldn't? Or is this pretty much you managed to cross all the T's, dot all the I's, you managed to track down everything that you wanted to tell the story you wanted to tell?
- [68:26]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, I just wish that we. We weren't able to get Joan Baez and I wish we could have gotten Joan.
- [68:33]
Robert Rodriguez
I was wondering about that.
- [68:34]
Amelia Davis
She just wasn't available during the time frame when we were doing the book.
- [68:39]
Robert Rodriguez
You send her a copy?
- [68:40]
Amelia Davis
Yes. Good. Yes, I did. And we're sending Ringo and Paul a copy as well, so hopefully get it. And I wish we could have gotten their input, too, but they're impossible to get a hold of these days. But it would have been fun to this many years later for them to look back and kind of tell us what it's like to look back at those photos if they remember or if it's a different. Like, you know, as you get older, you remember things differently. So how would they remember it today, looking at it then? But we weren't able to get. So I. You know, I am disappointed that we don't have Ring Paul and Joan. But despite that, I think it's an amazing book with great little tidbits for fans about what was happening at the time. And like I said, we tried desperately to identify as many people as we could. And we were calling Sue Sue Cox, the blonde woman with the glasses, the sunglasses on. It was almost like Where's Waldo? She was in every single. Almost every photograph. And we're like, we have to find out who that woman is because she's everywhere.
- [69:50]
Robert Rodriguez
And what brought her there, what was her role? Ends up. It's a fascinating story for anybody who hasn't got the book yet. And eventually you'll find out she was a partner with Tom Donahue, the big, literally and metaphorically DJ in San Francisco that promoted the show. You had a quote in there from Rachel.
- [70:09]
Amelia Davis
Yeah. His wife. Yeah, yeah.
- [70:12]
Robert Rodriguez
She had a particular slant on things.
- [70:14]
Amelia Davis
Yes, she did. We won't wreck it, but it's really fun, the memory that she has.
- [70:21]
Robert Rodriguez
And I love what you have from sue in the book as well.
- [70:25]
Amelia Davis
Sue was great. And, you know, you always worry because they're in their 80s, you know, and they remember all of that, and they really did, and it's. It's wonderful for them. And it was sweet, too, especially with sue, to be able to look through the photos and spark her memory. And then she was so grateful that we helped her remember those experiences that she had. You know, it kind of took her back to that time that just made me feel so good that it. Just remember that with fondness, you know?
- [70:57]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah. When you can deliver something to a participant in the book that you're. The story you're trying to tell, it's a wonderful thing that she at least was not beyond reach like so many others in this book are.
- [71:08]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, yeah. But no, I'm proud of it. I'm really happy, and I hope everybody enjoys it just as much as. As we do.
- [71:17]
Robert Rodriguez
Oh, yes.
- [71:18]
Amelia Davis
Hopefully we'll encourage some, not only musicians, but maybe some photojournalists, a younger generation that will say, man, that is really frigging cool. I'm going to go out and start documenting stuff that I'm seeing because even though it may not seem important now, 50 years from now, it's going to be important, right?
- [71:38]
Robert Rodriguez
Oh, God, yeah. The Beatles are forever. We know that.
- [71:41]
Amelia Davis
Exactly. And so, you know, we need to photograph. We need to tell stories through photos. You know, you can't just write about it. You need a visual documentation, too. And a lot of times the visual. When you photograph things, it doesn't need words. That's the beauty of Jim's photos, too, is they don't always need words. It's up to you to feel what you feel in that photograph. The way you feel looking at the same photograph that I am, I may feel differently. That's the beauty of photography and art, is that it's something different to each person who views it. And not one way is the right way and the other way is not the wrong way. It's how you view it and the emotions it brings out in you. And that's the most important thing, I think. And that's what you feel in this Beatles book. You really feel the emotion, the excitement, the boredom, everything.
- [72:34]
Robert Rodriguez
I am certain it has the power to inspire. Maybe make music yourself. If you're writing musician, it's like, oh, this is so cool. I want to do what they're doing something. Take pictures like this, if that's what you are. Write, like, the prose that's in here and try to capture in words what photos do you. There's a million different ways you can draw something of benefit that will send you on a trajectory that you may not even anticipated, which is what great art does. So it's serving a purpose beyond just a documentation of their last show, I think.
- [73:07]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, me too. Me too. It's a. Yes. A piece in time that can feel. Yeah. And we have a Jim Marshall Fellowship at UC Berkeley School of Journalism. They're one of the only schools in the United States now that still teaches photojournalism.
- [73:24]
Robert Rodriguez
Really?
- [73:25]
Amelia Davis
And, yeah, they are. So every year we award two prizes to two photojournalists to continue their work. And a lot of the photojournalists from UC Berkeley graduate and then become newspaper reporters at the time, sort of that go on to npr. They go into these Big, big important roles. Yeah.
- [73:47]
Robert Rodriguez
Journalistic platforms.
- [73:48]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's really nice that we were able to. We have a fellowship for in Jim's name. So that again, Jim carries on into future generations and he keeps inspiring them.
- [74:00]
Robert Rodriguez
Yes. And it's bigger than pictures of Rockx. As wonderful as they are. It's something else that's applicable to the world going forward that we are creating. The next gym Marshalls.
- [74:11]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And to have the courage to do it and not listen to anybody else. Don't let them tell you what's good or bad, what you feel is the right thing to do. You photograph that. Jim did a whole essay on. We have a book on the peace symbol. You know, Jim photographed the peace symbol from starting in 1961 to the last one was 1969. And every time he saw a peace symbol, whether it was in the subway, on the sidewalk, somebody wearing a button, whatever, he photographed it again. Most people would just pass by the peace symbol and not even recognize it or think twice about photographing it. But Jim was like, I see that it has some meaning. I'm going to start documenting that. So, you know, for future generations, don't be afraid to photograph something that other people may say is meaningless or just not even pay attention to. You know, if you think it's important, document it. Because it is. It will be important for sure.
- [75:12]
Robert Rodriguez
Definitely. Every different context is a different story.
- [75:15]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, that's great.
- [75:16]
Robert Rodriguez
So that is a book now.
- [75:18]
Amelia Davis
Yes, we did that. It's called Peace and I think it is still in print and it's a great little book through Real Art Press, which is over in London. So you can go on and get it. But yeah, that came out in 2000, 17, 18, I want to say.
- [75:35]
Robert Rodriguez
Okay.
- [75:35]
Amelia Davis
But it's a great little book. I love it. It's just literally it's just the peace symbol.
- [75:40]
Robert Rodriguez
Every time I definitely go look for that.
- [75:43]
Amelia Davis
It's fun.
- [75:43]
Robert Rodriguez
You'd made mention at the start of this conversation about his street photography. Is that something that's been curated and put together?
- [75:50]
Amelia Davis
It hasn't and that's one of the projects that I'm trying to work on. Yeah, his street photography out there. Because it's amazing. I mean seeing the street photography in San Francisco in the 19. Jim started photographing 1959, 1960 and San Francisco north beach was the jazz hub. That's where all the jazz clubs were and all the jazz greats came to. And Jim literally was self taught. He bought himself a Leica camera, put money down had to pay it off because it was so expensive and just went up and down and kind of taught himself what worked, what didn't, and just through trial and error, photographed. That's where he met a lot of the jazz greats, too. He met John Coltrane in San Francisco, and then he met Miles Davis. All those guys. But as street photography, he wouldn't only photograph the musicians. He would photograph the audience right at these jazz clubs. That was smoky and grainy because he was hand holding the camera with just available light. Or at nighttime, when he was walking down the street from one club to another with the neon lights in North Beach. And then when he was in New York, he was taking the subway everywhere. So, you know, people that were on the subway, it's just. It's fascinating. And so we're working on it. Hopefully we'll have a Jim Marshall street photography book. One of these.
- [77:18]
Robert Rodriguez
That's great. I'm a big fan of street photography generally. Like, I'm sure you're well familiar with Vivian Myers by now. The world is discovered from my hometown.
- [77:26]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, it's beautiful. Really great stuff. I mean, and Jim loved Robert Frank, Bruce Davidson. That kind of photography, he absolutely loved. So that's why I think, you know, if things hadn't happened where Jim came back to San Francisco right when the counter quote sort of was exploding, I think his photography may have been a different turn. There may have been music. I think there would have always been. But there would have been more. It would have been different.
- [77:53]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah. You just never know what fork in the road you end up pursuing. I'm thinking right now about. I think it's the late 40s, and maybe it was for life. I can't swear to this, but I became aware of street photography by Stanley Kubrick before he was a filmmaker. And maybe you've seen that. It's stunning.
- [78:13]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, it's amazing.
- [78:16]
Robert Rodriguez
And I don't know if he was angling to be a filmmaker one day or that was his path and then somehow he got diverted into something else.
- [78:23]
Amelia Davis
Right.
- [78:23]
Robert Rodriguez
But the.
- [78:24]
Amelia Davis
I was there 100%. Yes. Yes. I mean, it was. It's amazing stuff. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And then, you know, Paul McCartney, he just had a show that was here in San Francisco on his photography. And he makes no claims that he's a professional photographer. But you can see. I went and I saw the show. It was here at the de Young Museum. You could see that he did have an eye. He really did. He captured some really beautiful portraits of John Lennon with natural light. So you could see. Even though he won't call himself a professional photographer, he did have an eye, I think.
- [79:00]
Robert Rodriguez
Is there anything that man can't do?
- [79:02]
Amelia Davis
I know. And Ringo also photographed as well. He has a book out on, which is an interesting perspective too from him being in the cars and looking out at the fans going crazy. So he did some photography as well. It's really interesting.
- [79:19]
Robert Rodriguez
That was a great story. When it was the anniversary of the first visit to America and those teenagers that pull up in the car next to them and they were able to track down all of them except for the one who'd passed but. And re photographed them in an old car. I love stuff like that.
- [79:34]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, it's really interesting.
- [79:36]
Robert Rodriguez
And Olivia's doing a George book of pictures this year in the fall. Do you know about that?
- [79:40]
Amelia Davis
No. George Harrison book of one.
- [79:43]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah. His pictures taken like during the Beatle tours because he too had a camera. And we see a candlestick. John does the selfie, apparently has a camera on his speaker cabinet. Where's the rest of that role?
- [79:55]
Amelia Davis
I know, I know. And then when they're coming down the plane and Paul has. He's shooting. It's up against. And he's, you know, he's shooting Jim. Yes, I would love to see that.
- [80:07]
Robert Rodriguez
Oh yeah. You know, when you send him a book, maybe he'll go, now you've brought it up, here's my picture of Jim.
- [80:14]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, yeah.
- [80:15]
Robert Rodriguez
How amazing would that be?
- [80:18]
Amelia Davis
How cool.
- [80:19]
Robert Rodriguez
You know, it's just crying out. And you know, we could propose documentaries and projects all the livelong day, but just some kind of Jim Marshall exhibition somewhere would be amazing. This stuff.
- [80:32]
Amelia Davis
It's hard. I. I mean, and I. When Jim passed away, he rented. He didn't own. He rented an apartment. I documented the whole apartment, how it was set up on film, saved everything. So I've got a kitchen table, I've got his. You have this huge safe where he kept all his guns and cameras.
- [80:54]
Robert Rodriguez
I was gonna say, where's his guns now?
- [80:56]
Amelia Davis
And so I saved everything. It's all in storage. Because I would love to recreate Jim's apartment and do a show of his photography. I think it would just be because so many people, they would make a mecca to his apartment. Especially young musicians as well, like John Mayer, Lenny Kravitz, those guys. Jim really didn't photograph that much when he was older. And when I worked for him, he kind of done with photography because whole music scene had changed. You know, you had the handlers and the managers and they wanted them to look A certain way. And Jim just wouldn't have that. But the younger photographers would tell their managers, I want Jim to photograph me, so you have to allow him and let him photograph me. And so they wanted kind of the bragging rights that they were photographed by Jim Marshall. But, you know, they would make the trek to his apartment and look through his flat files and look through his proof sheets and wow, they love doing that.
- [81:55]
Robert Rodriguez
So he held court.
- [81:57]
Amelia Davis
He did hold court. And he. You know, the other great thing about Jem is he never. He always liked to be encouraging to younger photographers, even if they were horrible. He did not want to discourage them. So, you know, they would find his. He always said, my. When we had phone books, right, my number's in the phone book, you can always look me up. And they would. And they'd call me, they'd say, hey, you know, Jim Marshall, I love your photography. You're my hero. Would you look at my portfolio? And Jim would say, sure. So they'd come over and he'd look at it and, you know, there would be some really awful stuff. But what Jim would say as he would look through them, he goes, you know what? You're really good at taking pictures of the crowds. I think you should concentrate on the crowds, right? Rather than. So he didn't want to tell them, your live photography sucks.
- [82:49]
Robert Rodriguez
That's incredibly gracious and big hearted.
- [82:52]
Amelia Davis
It really was. He didn't want to discourage anybody because, you know, it's. For him, again, it's. It's documenting something that you feel passionate about that you want to document. And he didn't want to discourage anybody from doing that.
- [83:08]
Robert Rodriguez
You were just reminding me when you're talking about. He sort of stopped shooting past a certain point. Henry Diltz, I can't believe he's 80. What, at this point, right?
- [83:18]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, he's like 81, 82.
- [83:20]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I got to see John Kausil and Vicky Peterson. They put an album out last year, and I couldn't believe Henry Dilt shot the COVID to it. It's beautiful. He's still out there.
- [83:32]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, well, and it's interesting, too. Henry embraced digital photography. Jim never, ever, ever did. He was like, no, you know, I am never gonna do a digital photograph. And Leica even sent them one of their digital cameras. And I remember Jim was like. Because he called me Davis. So he said, davis, read this manual and tell me how to use this camera. And I said, I'm not gonna do that, Jim. No, this is something they gave to you. The only way you're gonna learn is by doing it. And he's like, fuck that. No. And he just put it.
- [84:09]
Robert Rodriguez
Somehow I had a sense that despite his big heartedness and clearly being progressive in his thinking that that might be a bridge too far.
- [84:18]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, he just could not. He couldn't get into computers. He made me, you know, I was the one. He didn't even know how to turn on a computer. He was like. And I had to explain the Internet to him. He just. It was beyond. Yeah, it's kind of like in the air.
- [84:36]
Robert Rodriguez
Well, well, thank God he had you. And thank God you're continuing. You're putting this stuff out there. This is this fantastic.
- [84:42]
Amelia Davis
Thank you. Thank you. I think Jim is one of the most important photographers of the 20th century and I really want his stuff to be out there and celebrated.
- [84:53]
Robert Rodriguez
That sounds like you can easily do a completely beautiful, stunning, non rock and roll photography book. And it would just blow a lot of minds.
- [85:01]
Amelia Davis
Blow a lot of minds. It's just getting publishers to realize that it would sell, you know, a lot of them because publishing is expensive and you know, it costs a lot. They want to make sure they make it back in sales, especially with photo books. So it's kind of like it's one of those things that they're a little afraid because Jim is known for his music. So they're like, if we don't do the music, are people gonna embrace it or are they gonna be like, what the hell is this? And you know, it's trying to convince them that I think anybody who loves Jim's photography, they see it as photojournalism and music is just one subject. They'll be totally into the street photography.
- [85:41]
Robert Rodriguez
I wonder if that is something that you could crowdsource just to get it off the ground. I had Ethan Russell on the show a couple of times and his iconic stuff, but he crowdsourced. He did a Kickstarter for the book he wanted to do, which was an art book of his most iconic stuff. And it definitely. I don't know if being on my show helped, but he definitely got the momentum to get what he wanted out there the way he wanted it out there. I can't see a Jim Marshall audience being smaller, especially when you've got the steady flow of stuff coming out through Chronicle books. So he's a big enough name. It might be something to consider if no other path suggests themselves.
- [86:16]
Amelia Davis
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we are kind of talking to a few publishers, so I'm not going to say anything. I don't want to jinx It.
- [86:24]
Robert Rodriguez
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But ultimately, if it's affordable thing and not some 500 book for the.
- [86:29]
Amelia Davis
Oh, yeah, few. Yeah, yeah, I know. I just know with gym stuff I want it to be affordable for everybody. Yeah. I don't want it to be a hundred dollar book or, you know, it's crazy.
- [86:39]
Robert Rodriguez
So as much as it would be worth it, but get as many hands as possible. That's great.
- [86:44]
Amelia Davis
Exactly. Exactly.
- [86:45]
Robert Rodriguez
Democracy now.
- [86:46]
Amelia Davis
Yes, for sure.
- [86:47]
Robert Rodriguez
You think you're going to be able
- [86:49]
Archive or historical audio clips
to see the Beatles when they do come out?
- [86:51]
Amelia Davis
Yes, I've got binoculars. I love them.
- [86:56]
Archive or historical audio clips
You couldn't see them without binoculars?
- [86:58]
Amelia Davis
No. How much did it cost you to
- [87:00]
Robert Rodriguez
get in here tonight?
- [87:01]
Amelia Davis
650.
- [87:03]
Archive or historical audio clips
You think it's worth it, huh?
- [87:04]
Amelia Davis
No, I'd pay a million.
- [87:06]
Archive or historical audio clips
Why?
- [87:07]
Amelia Davis
Oh, because I think they're great. They're the greatest thing on earth. I think
- [87:13]
Archive or historical audio clips
if you had your choice of any one of them to spend, well, let's say five minutes with talking, chatting, which one would you pick?
- [87:24]
Amelia Davis
John.
- [87:24]
Archive or historical audio clips
Why?
- [87:25]
Amelia Davis
Oh, just. I think he's a genius. He's really great. We'll just take their songs. They're so great, the way they ride him and everything. Well, who would you pick?
- [87:40]
Archive or historical audio clips
Who would I pick? I'll take Frank Sinatra.
- [87:47]
Robert Rodriguez
Something about the Beatles. Created and hosted by Robert Rodriguez, executive producer Rick Way, Title song performed by the Corgis. Something about the Beatles is an evergreen podcast.
- [88:11]
Amelia Davis
You're so late getting home from the office. Did you miss your train? Were you caught out in the rain? No, don't bother to explain. Explain. Can I fix you a quick martini? As a matter of fact, I will have one with you. For to tell you the truth, I've had quite a day to guess who I saw today. Guess who I saw today. Guess who I saw today.
- [89:14]
Archive or historical audio clips
I
- [89:16]
Amelia Davis
saw you.
- [89:24]
Archive or historical audio clips
Sa.