← Something Positive for Positive People
Something Positive for Positive People
SPFPP 354: Herpes and Suicide - Sexual Health is Mental Health
00:53:18
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- [00:02]
Courtney Brain
I jump every time she says, this meeting is being recorded. I, I will never get used to that. Welcome to Something Positive for Positive People. I'm Courtney Brain. Something Positive for Positive People is a 501c3 non profit organization supporting people who are navigating herpes stigma. In 2017, we started this podcast, I say we like. It's a bunch of people. I started this podcast just interviewing people about their experiences because I saw that there were a lot of people who had herpes and wanted in their lives. And I, I just got curious. It's like, well, what is it that's making people want to end their lives? Is it that they're sad? Is it because their lives are over? What could it be? And so over the years, interviewing, like at this point, we've got 360something podcast episodes that have been done, some interviews, some solo, but overall the general consensus is that it comes down to stigma. Herpes stigma is very prevalent. We're learning that as we continue to do our surveys and we invite the experiences of people onto the podcast and we're able to put it in a quantitative way so that we can present this information of how people are struggling with stigma to healthcare professionals, organizations and educational institution. I don't even want to say it sound like schools, but sex educators and people who are in sexuality education. Because what we're learning from people who have herpes is that it took for them to get herpes and then start to receive relationship communication and education skills such as navigating consent boundaries, being able to seek support, accountability for any harm done, how to recognize healthy or abusive relationships, how deal with and navigate rejection. They didn't get that information prior to their diagnosis. And this is something that absolutely influences maybe not whether or not they get herpes, but the communication skills to navigate the quality of the relationship in which if they are diagnosed with herpes, there's way less of an impact on their psychological health. So the podcast mission is stigma minimization. If you can see on the shirt, if you're watching, the word stigma is just supposed to be fading. We did the best we could with the design. I'm, I'm working on it. It's starting to rub off on me and I, I, we don't have like merch yet, but I think it's coming. I just got to bring it together. And that's our mission really is just to integrate the lived experiences of people with herpes into sexuality education as a way of supporting STI prevention efforts. All right, so I mentioned the mental Health component. And so we have someone who's in the field of mental health on here today that whole, like, having a conversation about herpes. Like, we. We hear that over and over and over again. So today we're really just going to focus on the working with people, the therapeutic component, and the mental health component. So before we get started, I'll have you go ahead and introduce yourself and then just share how you and I connected, and then we'll go into the conversation from there.
- [03:26]
Drew Rabadu
Sure. So my name is Drew Rabadu. I am a licensed clinical social worker, and I have my own private practice in. I can practice in New York, Texas, Connecticut, and Wisconsin. And I have had my practice for five years, and I specialize in working with women coping with herpes, which there's not a ton of therapists out there that specifically focus in that. So I have people calling from all around the world to learn about, you know, what I do and how can I help them and all of that kind of stuff. So I actually found you because everyone around me knows this is what I specialize in. And there was the New York Times article, which was an excellent article. Was that like two or three, a year or two ago?
- [04:25]
Courtney Brain
I'm gonna say this. So people were so excited that I was in the New York Times for me, and I know, you know, I practice gratitude and all that, you know, positivity, but I was very disappointed at the little information that they put in there about the work. It always feels to me like whenever anyone interviews me about something positive for positive people, they want the sad story of a black with herpes and how miserable it is and how terrible it is. And it's like, well, actually, I got herpes and I did something a little bit different than what you might expect. I don't want it to be about that part of my life and my experience, because that wasn't what my experience was. So it seems like a lot of what this bigger picture mission, things that are useful to people with herpes just got missed in that article. And it's a reoccurring theme for when people will do at these large publications like interview me. It's like I don't say the things that they want me to say. So there's really not much of what I said that's in the news article. So thank you. I appreciate the recognition. I recognize the prestige. I got the backlink on the website. That's great for SEO purposes. But I don't think that did anything in regards to what the mission of something positive for positive people is right.
- [05:54]
Drew Rabadu
It, they made it seem like you were like a one person shop that just like helps people, but it wasn't very clear how you were helping people. Right in the article.
- [06:05]
Courtney Brain
Yeah, yeah, but like I said, I'm grateful. Thank you New York Times person who wrote that article. I'm sure it wasn't that person who interviewed me. They probably wanted to put more stuff in there, but the editor was like, this isn't catch your clickbaity. We need, we need more sadness.
- [06:21]
C
Right?
- [06:22]
Drew Rabadu
Well, hopefully it, I mean, I did not know about something positive for positive people before that article. So I was really happy to find it and find you. So to know that the work that you're doing and how it's presenting a place for people to be able to talk about their experience, see people who are also struggling and be able to have a place to sort of go and get reliable information is super important. And if I remember anything about that article was really about how there is a huge problem with testing. And I think a lot of people do not realize that at all.
- [07:11]
Courtney Brain
Nah, the issues with testing too, like I know people want a cure. Everybody, everyone thinks that their problems just go away if we cure herpes. But there are so many bigger problems that come if we cure herpes and we got to get into that. But there are also steps that kind of need to be taken for us to get there, starting with the, the testing, right? If there were one test that was just called herpes test that was included on a standard STI panel where people go one to two times a year, they get tested and they find out, yes, you have herpes, no, you don't have herpes, no in between, no, within this range, none of that stuff. It should just say positive or it should say negative. We would a have so many more people who were aware of herpes and the information around it. We would have more accurate and consistent information because more people would complain about the inconsistency and the untruth of the information that exists out there. We would also have people, just more people who are knowing what their status is. And I think that that would also minimize like this taboo ness of it, the stigma of it. Because now more people are getting it and more people are learning that oral herpes cause genital herpes and that herpes is not exclusively a sexually transmitted infection. Right. So I do believe that the first step towards a cure really needs to be for us to get more accurate information because then more people who do care will air. Because right now there's not really a reason to, because people who have oral herpes. So majority of the people who have herpes don't even know that they have herpes. And that's a whole conversation in this cell?
- [09:11]
Drew Rabadu
Yes, definitely. I can't tell you how many phone calls I've gotten from people who, you know, got into a relationship, both got STD testing, but, you know, both of them had negative results. They were taking all the steps, Right, to be able to protect themselves or to at least sort of build some trust with the other person in getting on the same page.
- [09:35]
C
Right.
- [09:36]
Drew Rabadu
And one of them gets a result that's not exactly clear and. Or isn't a result at all, or isn't accurate. Right. There's lots of false positives, false negatives, and so they have sex and then somebody gets herpes, and then they're totally blindsided. They did everything that they thought was supposed to happen.
- [10:02]
C
Right.
- [10:02]
Drew Rabadu
And so when they talk to me and I ask about the testing, they're like, what? There's all the tests are not the same, you know, like, why didn't anyone tell me that? And then the doctors can't tell them. It baffles my mind how many doctors don't know about the testing problem too.
- [10:23]
Courtney Brain
And from my experience in speaking to healthcare professionals, there's a range of different beliefs about it. So on one hand, we have the doctors who are using just old information, who don't have access to social media, who their thought process is, oh, I'm looking at an outbreak in the genital region. So this is HSV2 not understanding that more people are going down on each other and they're not using condoms, and people aren't aware that cold sores are herpes. So we see it above on the mouth level and we just default to calling it type one. And then when it's on the genitals, we call it type two. And I remember when I first got my diagnosis, I received the statistic. It was a flyer. It said like 1 in 6, 1 in 5, 1 in 4, 1 and 3, 1 and 2. So this is five different statistics, right? And the language was so interchangeable. It was inter interactive. It was very interchangeable between oral HSV2, genital HSV2, oral HSV1, genital HSV1, and then like oral herpes, genital herpes. And the stats didn't make sense. They didn't help me because it said, okay, here's how many people have these types of herpes. That doesn't mean anything to someone who's newly Diagnosed because I don't know any of these people, and all you're doing is minimizing me into one of these categories. So now I'm one in 20% or I'm one of the one in four people who now has to live with this virus and what people most need. And I'm curious to know if this is your experience as well, is to understand how to talk about it to partners, especially when the information that exists does not help us with navigating this conversation. Most people want to do the right thing and say something to a partner or inquire or they might even, you know, know, like, I've only had sex with this person, blah, blah, blah. So the language isn't there for us to navigate the communication that needs to take place.
- [12:32]
Drew Rabadu
Totally. Absolutely. And the. The hard part is that people, you know, we know that people get it. They were not disclosed to. And then there's a certain response, right. They either want to prevent someone else from getting herpes and not knowing. And they also. There are some people who feel like, well, nobody told me, so I'm not going to say anything.
- [13:00]
C
Right.
- [13:01]
Drew Rabadu
But they're so devastated that. That. That one thing really impacted their life so much. So there's this opportunity, right, for them to pick what they want to do. And you're right. I think people want to do the right thing. And if that anger about the getting herpes is not processed correctly, it can turn into something else.
- [13:27]
Courtney Brain
Yeah. And, Drew, I'm gonna. I'm gonna put my notes away. I don't. I don't want to take notes for this episode. Like, I. I really just want to have a conversation. So what I see is. And maybe you can speak to this, the component of maybe we can go worst to best. So to me, the worst thing that a person can feel is that they want to end their lives because of their diag. Are you able to see or speak to why a person diagnosed with herpes wants to end their life?
- [13:56]
Drew Rabadu
Yes. I worked in community mental health for a long time, and nobody wants to commit suicide because they want the easy way out or they're not. You know that it is a point where you feel like you don't have any other choice. The what is in the immediate is so devastating that you can't imagine any other option.
- [14:25]
C
Right.
- [14:26]
Drew Rabadu
And that's when people usually get to the point where they feel suicidal. Some people take action. Some people think about it and have passive ideation.
- [14:37]
C
Right.
- [14:38]
Drew Rabadu
But if they don't go to the hospital or they don't get help. You know, there's that split second time that, you know, they could take their own lives and then they never get to figure out how to learn with her, learn how to live with herpes. All these things that can happen, right, that we know can happen, but in that moment that you feel like you don't have another choice, that is really the hardest part of it. And what I think people, you know, what happens to people before they take their own lives because they have herpes, right.
- [15:19]
Courtney Brain
And I know that this, we have to be careful with how we talk because we don't want to talk about like patients or clients or anything like that. So if we can generally speak here when a person is in fact struggling with suicide ideation, what are some things or if you have a thing that we can do to support a person who might be struggling with suicide ideation because of their diagnosis, or if someone's listening to this and they're struggling, what are some things that can be helpful to them?
- [15:52]
Drew Rabadu
I think people are scared to go anywhere or call anywhere to get help and it is scary to do that.
- [16:01]
C
Right.
- [16:02]
Drew Rabadu
But hospitals have tools like ketamine, which is a very fast acting antidepressant that is used for acute suicidal ideation, which can really help the person get immediate relief. So I think we don't want to put the burden on someone like a normal person that doesn't have any training, that is just a friend, right. To take that burden on. I mean therapists, that's our worst, our worst nightmare is to have a client who commits suicide, right? So think about somebody who's not trained. So you want to get the person to the right place, which usually is a place that's going to be able to connect them.
- [16:53]
Courtney Brain
So you mentioned ketamine as a treatment and I know that ketamine is accessible like on the streets. And we also. You just said like trained professional and ketamine together. We're not saying that if you're a person who has a friend who's struggling with suicide ideation and you happen to have ketamine to give this. That is not what's being said here. So we have underutilized tool. And if someone is struggling with suicide ideation, they need to seek medical attention, they can go to the hospital. And you know, I, I don't have better language for this. But what if someone's like not really serious and so they a don't want to take any action because they know they're not serious? Could it be for another reason? Like could someone who's struggling with suicide ideation benefit from doing something that isn't maybe taking that extreme of an action like committing to going to the hospital for treatment, maybe that's. Maybe they're not like a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being I'm going to do something to myself, but maybe they're at an 8 or a 9 and it's like, I just want someone to intervene.
- [18:15]
C
Right.
- [18:16]
Drew Rabadu
Well, there are different stages. Right. There's different levels. When I was a hospital social worker, you have somebody who, you know, wants to end their lives. They're thinking about jumping out the window. And they have a window in the seventh floor of their apartment in New York City. That's a person who needs to go to the emergency room.
- [18:37]
C
Right.
- [18:37]
Drew Rabadu
Or somebody is at the train station and is watching trains go by and thinking about, oh, I could just jump in front. That's a high, high acuity.
- [18:49]
C
Right.
- [18:50]
Drew Rabadu
Then below that is, you know, this could be much easier if I just ended my life, but I have a mom that would really be devastated if I was gone. They have safety factors, right? That's safety factors. And they have a support system. So if you go to someone, you know, a professional when you're suicidal, those are the things they're going to be looking for. How likely is it that you're going to carry this out?
- [19:20]
C
Right.
- [19:21]
Drew Rabadu
How, how much motivation do you have to do so? And do you have a plan and do you have an intent and do you have support to help you? And do you have a safe, you know, environment? Are there guns in the home? Are there, you know, ways that you are thinking of killing yourself that are there. Do you have full pill bottles? You know, all of these things like that is something that a social worker, for example, would ask to try to assess whether the person has to be sent to the hospital or not.
- [19:54]
Courtney Brain
I never considered the line of questioning of, do you have a plan?
- [20:02]
Drew Rabadu
Yep.
- [20:03]
Courtney Brain
So when we talk about having a plan, what that looks like in a practical sense is, oh, well, I do see trains riding by every day and I sit and I stare and I think about, you know, jumping in front of it. Or I'm on the seventh story of a building in New York City and I think about jumping out of the window. So these are people that have a plan.
- [20:25]
Drew Rabadu
Yes.
- [20:27]
Courtney Brain
Wow. Okay. Thank you for. Thank you for explaining that in simple terms. Because I don't think that I ever really knew that that was what having a plan meant. I was thinking a suicide note, you know, And I think at that point it Might be too late. Right.
- [20:41]
Drew Rabadu
So that's a pretty serious thing.
- [20:44]
Courtney Brain
Got it. Okay. So there's a step back from that, from my range of perspective. Okay. And the support system, what is if you can speak to the power of a support system as we talk about someone who might be struggling with suicidation in relation to a herpes diagnosis.
- [21:04]
Drew Rabadu
Yes. So that's the. So the support system is people basically who they could go to or call if they feel like they might harm themselves. So when a professional, if, if I have a client that comes that says, or you know, whoever comes and says I have herpes, I'm going to kill myself, I'm going to jump in front of the train.
- [21:27]
C
Right.
- [21:28]
Drew Rabadu
First I'm going to assess how serious that is and come up with a safety plan. If I feel that they don't need to go to the hospital.
- [21:37]
C
Right.
- [21:37]
Drew Rabadu
Because they're not going to jump in front of the train. They're just, you know, it's crossed their mind.
- [21:42]
C
Right.
- [21:44]
Drew Rabadu
Then I would do a safety plan and the support system would be part of that safety plan. It would be, I can call my brother, I can call, you know, my therapist, I can call my aunt Betty, like whatever it is, somebody who they can call or things they can do that they know work for them to help them get out of that space, like going for a walk or going out in nature or whatever it is.
- [22:13]
C
Right.
- [22:13]
Drew Rabadu
Specific things. We give them the document and they go home with that to try all of those things before we activate emergency services.
- [22:23]
C
Right.
- [22:25]
Courtney Brain
Okay.
- [22:26]
Drew Rabadu
Yeah.
- [22:27]
Courtney Brain
All right. Were you about to say a but? What was that but?
- [22:30]
Drew Rabadu
I was about to say, you know, there's other support systems for people that don't have a support system like mobile crisis. Are you familiar with mobile crisis at all?
- [22:42]
Courtney Brain
I've heard of it. I don't feel confident speaking to it and like for you to. As best you can. So these to my understanding, what I'm hearing here is there are resources for someone who might not be at a 10 of suicide ideation, but like they don't want to get to a 10.
- [23:04]
Drew Rabadu
Yes.
- [23:04]
Courtney Brain
Okay.
- [23:05]
Drew Rabadu
So for example, if I saw somebody who was pretty, pretty serious about wanting to take their life but was saying that they weren't going to do it, there's safety factors, they have their kid they have to watch or what, you know, whatever it is. But I was still worried about them, right. That maybe something in the next 24 to 48 hours could happen that would push them over the edge. I would call mobile crisis. So mobile crisis is a Group of. They usually are, you know, social workers, mental health workers, psychiatrists that actually go to the person's home and they do their own assessment.
- [23:49]
Courtney Brain
Familiar with them?
- [23:51]
Drew Rabadu
Yes. Yes.
- [23:54]
Courtney Brain
Okay. I remember I was in college, and I had a girlfriend at the time who we had broken up, and she, like, popped back up into my life, and she was, like, very serious about getting back into a relationship very fast, as if there wasn't, you know, two, three years in between us, you know, not having seen each other. And she had some traumatic events that happened between our breakup and us reconnecting. And I don't know what it was, but I remember she was. She left me this very cryptic voicemail. And the voicemail, I just didn't like how she sounded in her voice, you know, And I had no reason to think of her as someone who was suicidal. Like, I wasn't familiar with mental health or depression or anything at this time, but something told me to just, like, call this number. I called the. I guess it was a mobile crisis center. I don't know that that was their name. But I called, and I was like, hey, I just got a very strange voicemail from an ex. And here's how to get to her house. I didn't have, like, the. The address, but I gave them a name, a phone number, and I was like, here's, like, how to get there. And, you know, I didn't think anything of it. I was like, that was just really strange. And I couldn't explain to you what that feeling was. But I got a phone call from her brother later who said that he found her in the tub and she had taken some pills and she was alive still, so they were able to intervene. And this was, I'm 30. I'll be 36 in November. But this was when I was maybe 22 years old in college. I didn't think 22, 21, 20, whatever it was, I was living in my house, the first house that I lived in with roommates. And to this day, I recently, like, reached out to her because I saw a picture, and I was so curious. I was like, hey, you wouldn't happen to have herpes, would you? Like, I remember that time. And she's like, oh, no. I never tested positive for it, but this was something else. And so, you know, fast forward to when I was 23, 24 years old, and I get herpes. And then I find myself in these different community support groups, and I see that there are people who want to end their lives, right? Like, I think back to that, and you know, this is what kind of links me to. If we want to call it purpose or my calling of just supporting people through this, because 36% is the consistent number that we see when we do surveys for people who want to end their lives after their herpes diagnosis. That's a lot of people and people around me who have ended their lives. Some high school friend and teammate, I've had it. Family members have threatened suicide themselves. I've just seen it. I've seen it, and I've seen the harm that it does to the people around them. And it's something that I recognize that I have, like, a strong reaction to. And this is, you know, of my herpes diagnosis and going down this road of, you know, investigating this and looking at what the connecting factors are, such as herpes suicide. And I see that there's a thing there, you know, I feel very compelled to help people not go there. The messages I get are very validating and that people speak to how this podcast, these experiences, these stories, just hearing people talk about it helps them with being seen. And identity validation is what I find to be the most helpful thing to people. When, okay, you get this diagnosis, you don't recognize yourself, and then you meet someone or someone close to you validates who you are as you want to be seen, and not just you as somebody with herpes, because that's now how we might see ourselves upon diagnosis. So I just, I. It felt necessary to share that, to tie in, you know, the. The. The suicide component, like, to make it real. Like, I think that the real stories, the real experiences, they. They make this stuff real, real. And for people who may feel like they're not seen or that they're invalidated, like, or that herpes. They hear that herpes isn't a big deal. They hear the jokes and all of that. I think that those things might contribute to identity invalidation because there are people who. This is the worst thing that's ever happened to them, you know, And I speak about this from so many different angles, and I want to make sure that this is something that is supportive to people who are struggling with their mental health. So you, as a therapist who's dealing with someone who's at that extreme of the spectrum struggling with suicide ideation. You mentioned the process. You want to find out how serious they are, connect them to the right support resources. What. What does getting support from you look like for someone who might be working with you? First, let's start in a group setting, because I know you do women's Herpes support groups just to give people an inside look of what that can be. Because the support groups online are very much people just kind of bitching about a poor dating experience and that they'll never be able to get into a relationship. And this is something different.
- [29:37]
Drew Rabadu
Yeah. So I run a 12 week support group, right. I have free support groups which is once a month, Right. And they're posted on my website. But then I have these structured groups that are small group of women for 12 weeks and we get together and people talk about what is, what they're struggling with right now. Because I think there is something very powerful that happens when you meet somebody who understands.
- [30:10]
C
Right.
- [30:11]
Drew Rabadu
And can make you feel seen. Unfortunately, a lot of our health professionals, you get a diagnosis of herpes, they throw some cream at you and okay, you know, bye, bye. And that's it, right. They leave you with no. And not because they're not great people or professionals. It's because they only get like 15 minutes, right. So the support group is a good wraparound for people to build relationships. And the group ends at 12 weeks. So if people want to go and have, you know, personal relationships with people, friendships, when the group is over, that's totally fine. People can leave with friends and have places to call or people to call.
- [30:57]
C
Right.
- [30:58]
Drew Rabadu
But I think when we're talking about suicidal ideation, it's very important. You know, what I want to get across is that no one person is responsible for knowing what to mobilize for that person. You call 911 and they will activate the right kind of support for that person.
- [31:19]
C
Right.
- [31:20]
Drew Rabadu
So if the person you don't need, for example, you don't need to decide are they a 10 or an 8, right. You pass it to a professional who figures it out. A private practice like I have would not probably be the best support system for somebody who is having active suicidal ideation. Because I'm one person, right. If somebody calls in an emergency, I may not be able to respond to them right away because I'm a one person, right. So it's important that they get the level of care that they need. And I certainly refer people to hospital systems or therapists that are able to, you know, have a group that have a group practice or something that have more capability of managing someone with that needs a higher level of care. Because at the end of the day, what we want to do is give the person the supports that they need. And it depends on where they are in the feeling.
- [32:28]
C
Right.
- [32:30]
Courtney Brain
Thank you for answering that question. So if someone is struggling with suicide ideation, it's best that they go to the hospital. It's best that they call 911.
- [32:40]
Drew Rabadu
Yes. And then they will assess. And in fact, I have a friend, friend who's a therapist call me about a client that she was seeing, and he was, you know, actively suicidal, and she was worried about him going home. And I said, just call mobile crisis because they'll be able to go to him and figure out. And they actually were able to get him into outpatient program, an intensive program that would have taken so long to get into had she not mobilized that support.
- [33:17]
C
Right.
- [33:18]
Drew Rabadu
So it is really important because they can prioritize how quickly someone needs to get into additional services.
- [33:25]
Courtney Brain
Okay. What is it about a herpes diagnosis that can send somebody down that path? Like, why is it that we get herpes and now our mental health is just suffering?
- [33:40]
Drew Rabadu
It is devastating. A herpes diagnosis.
- [33:44]
C
Right.
- [33:44]
Drew Rabadu
It throws you off kilter for so many reasons. What does this mean for you, dating? What does this mean for you having kids? What does this mean for you, having a family or, you know, being able to be in a casual sexual relationship without disclosing.
- [34:05]
C
Right.
- [34:06]
Drew Rabadu
Which is what you might be able to do before you have herpes.
- [34:10]
C
Right.
- [34:11]
Drew Rabadu
So it just pushes people into this very uncomfortable route, you know, place where they can't see an opening for any type of normal life for them.
- [34:25]
C
Right.
- [34:26]
Drew Rabadu
Their version of what they thought was their life going forward is completely changed. So they either need to burn the blueprint that they had and make a new one, or end their life.
- [34:42]
C
Right.
- [34:43]
Drew Rabadu
Some people are not able to see, oh, I could burn this blueprint and be okay. You know, that's where I think people get into the place where they really start to get serious about ending their lives because they can't imagine how they would move forward.
- [35:03]
Courtney Brain
So the unpredictability, the uncertainty, the certainty of our sexuality prior to a diagnosis where our sexuality becomes unpredictable because we don't even know if we're going to be able to have a sexual or romantic partner or relationship now. And these are the things that, in fact contribute to someone having that psychological impact on, you know, themselves because of their diagnosis. Is that. Is that accurate? Am I saying that? Am I repeating that right?
- [35:38]
Drew Rabadu
No, you're. You're right. And the physical part of it, when you get. I mean, women mostly, when you get an outbreak the first time, it's incredibly painful and usually very extensive.
- [35:50]
C
Right.
- [35:51]
Drew Rabadu
And the anxiety can sometimes make it worse. And so when you. When you think this is what your life is going to be like forever is pain and discomfort.
- [36:03]
C
Right.
- [36:04]
Drew Rabadu
You don't know that. Okay. As time goes on, you learn how to manage your outbreaks. You learn how to, you know, you can't see any of that at a new diagnosis.
- [36:14]
C
Right.
- [36:14]
Drew Rabadu
So that also pushes people into a place where they might contemplate adding, ending their life as well.
- [36:23]
Courtney Brain
Yeah. And I now you saying that just kind of triggers what the value of people being willing to share their personal experiences is, right? Like someone being willing to come on here and talk about the. The way that they got their herpes diagnosis or the experience of the interaction that they had with the partner or the health professional. These are the ways that we're able to validate the lived experiences of people who have herpes and speak to, you know, these as real experiences so that people don't feel like they're the problem or something's wrong with them or that they're broken. Right. And as y'all share y'all stories, and I will often also say, like, I've heard from a lot of people who share their experiences and they come away from this and they're just like, ah, that was nice. Like, know that when you do finally get to a place where you do want to share, it's very useful to not just yourself, but also to somebody else who might be listening in later. We just really know. And I don't know how to really ask this question for you, but I'm curious to know if you've seen people come out the other side of perhaps suicide ideation after their herpes diagnosis. What does being on the other side of that look like? And then what are some ways that we can get there?
- [37:55]
Drew Rabadu
Yeah, I think that that place that you're talking about, that place where devastation, thinking about end of life is actually where a lot of amazing things can happen for people, Right. I mean, yes, we have people who have the ability, you know, because of a lot of previous things that have happened in their lives, that are not able to move past that.
- [38:25]
C
Right.
- [38:25]
Drew Rabadu
We recognize that there's other things involved in moving past, but the important thing is, is that you don't do anything, right. If you take that split second, you know, time that you have and you end your life, you don't ever get another choice, right?
- [38:49]
Courtney Brain
It's.
- [38:49]
Drew Rabadu
It's over and that's it. But if people are able to see that glimmer, right? Like, I have clients who have been to the doctor to get a diagnosis, right. And the doctor then tells them, you know what? I have herpes, it's Going to be okay. I've heard this a few times, that the doctor says this, or you know what? I have a lot of clients. I have a lot of patients who have had this. You know, it's very common. You can live a normal life. Those things are extremely important because they present another option. So what you're doing and what this podcast is doing is extremely important because you never know when that person is listening to these people say those things, and it changes their mind from feeling like they have no options to look, here's this person that's living and having a relationship and going out and dating with herpes.
- [39:53]
Courtney Brain
I don't know why I reached to unmute. All right, thank you, man. I'm wanting to make this all encompassing of everything, suicide ideation and herpes in a way that is most useful to the most people. That it can be useful, too. I know what's in my range of perspective, and I. I did want to comment on something, and I probably should have taken notes, but I wanted to just, like, be here with the conversation because there was something you mentioned that I wanted to further question and investigate, but it might just have to wait and it'll come back later. What. What am I missing? What is something that. Oh, you talked about, like the validating statements. When a doctor says, like, oh, you know what? A lot of people have it. I diagnose this all the time like, it's gonna be fine, or I have it myself. Where's the line between empowering someone with a statement like that and just being like, hey, you know, it's not a big deal, and it's not a big deal, and dismissing someone's experience. Are you able to help differentiate between the two?
- [41:20]
Drew Rabadu
If you're telling somebody how they should feel, that is dismissing, right? That is dismissing. If you tell somebody, listen, I know it's really hard to get this diagnosis, and it's a total rock your world moment. And I get it. And I also know that there are people who li go on living their normal life with herpes.
- [41:50]
C
Right.
- [41:51]
Drew Rabadu
Versus, oh, don't, you know, don't worry about it. It's going to be fine. Two very different responses, right? I think that that makes a big difference. When you dismiss somebody's feelings and don't acknowledge them, that is not helpful.
- [42:11]
Courtney Brain
All right, so the dismissal is really telling someone how they should feel. And the validation, the comfort is, I guess, just acknowledging or holding space for and accepting that this person is having their reaction and they're feeling what it is that they're feeling.
- [42:28]
Drew Rabadu
Yeah.
- [42:29]
Courtney Brain
Okay.
- [42:29]
Drew Rabadu
Because they're just getting some news that is going to completely change a lot of things. Right.
- [42:35]
Courtney Brain
And I like how you said that this is going to change things. You didn't say it's going to make things worse or harder. And I think that upon diagnosis we, we feel that way. We believe that, right?
- [42:48]
Drew Rabadu
Yeah, yeah.
- [42:49]
Courtney Brain
I don't think that we hear that there are people who are living with herpes where things just change. Right. Like things change and choice. That's the thing that I wanted to bring up earlier. You mentioned choice and I wanted to speak to that. So I hope that through this podcast what happens is that people are hearing how others are living their life and they're able to make a choice in how they want to, how they want to continue their life. If you're someone who decides, okay, I don't want to have sex anymore or I want to wait until marriage, like, don't let this be because of fear and you feel like your options are now limited, it's important that we get our power back through choice. We lost our power in first locking ourselves into the identity of our sexuality and letting that just be the extent of who we see ourselves to be. And now we're at a place where we're able to see that as what we could be doing or what we were doing or even with suicide ideation. Right. The choice of when you get there, if you get there, to not do that is a choice. And we get power back in that choice of taking a conscious action that takes us in the direction of validating ourselves, validating our identities, and the choice to seek support, the choice to find community, the choice to find a therapist, someone who is able to, that you're able to utilize for what it is that you need. And so much of what we learn from people with herpes is that later on they find out, wow, you know, I didn't really know how to communicate my needs. I didn't know what my needs were. And it's on this journey along the way of healing through their herpes diagnosis and the stigma associated with that that they learned these, these non sex related and herpes things that help them with their relationships as a whole and their relationships to themselves and their lives. Do you have anything to add to that?
- [44:55]
Drew Rabadu
I think that when something huge happens like a herpes diagnosis, there is an opportunity.
- [45:02]
C
Right.
- [45:03]
Drew Rabadu
Because what's going to come up after that doesn't most of the time doesn't have to do all the way with herpes.
- [45:11]
C
Right.
- [45:11]
Drew Rabadu
100% with herpes okay, you got this because you had a casual sexual relationship. Then you have shame for doing that and getting herpes. Right. Well, this is God punishing me for having casual sex. No, God is not punishing you for having casual sex.
- [45:30]
C
Right.
- [45:31]
Drew Rabadu
This is a time to get clear on. Do you want to have casual sex? No, I want a relationship. Okay, so what kind of relationship do you want? I love you going around in the. It's like a merry go round.
- [45:47]
Courtney Brain
That was me keeping myself quiet for being like, yeah, like this, this. Well, I don't wanna. So if we talk at the same time, you don't hear anything. So that's just kind of like me having my non verbal reactions. And I noticed, like, I do this thing where I'll continue talking. You're such a great listener that you sit there and I think you don't have anything to say. So I feel like I need to like come up with a question. So I'm talking longer to formulate a question to ask you to get you to talk. Because that, that's the thing you do, right? Like you sit there and you're just listening. You're list listening. And I'm like, well, if I don't ask a question, we might just be sitting there. She might go, yep. And then we, we just got that awkward pause. So I'm being mindful of that. So that's what the spin around time was. The spin around was a.
- [46:38]
Drew Rabadu
Yeah, no, I hear you. I do the same thing too. I mean, it's like an occupational hazard of being a good listener sometimes.
- [46:47]
C
Right.
- [46:48]
Drew Rabadu
Being a therapist, I don't usually tell people I'm a therapist on a plane.
- [46:53]
Courtney Brain
No, no. Oh, I can only imagine. Oh. So we're getting to time and I want to first off, just see if there's anything else that you want to leave us with on the topic. I know we covered everything that I wanted to cover with you. I wanted you to speak about the support groups and when we close this out, I would like for you to just share how people can get in contact with you, connect with you, and then I'll be sure to link that into the podcast episode as well as your support group.
- [47:26]
Drew Rabadu
Yeah, so I provide support group support. Like I said. Every. Every month I have a free support group and then I have these structured ones.
- [47:38]
C
Right.
- [47:39]
Drew Rabadu
You do a great job at, you know, the donation based phone calls. I don't know anyone else that does that. That's a terrific resource for people. And if somebody wants therapy on a longer basis.
- [47:54]
C
Right.
- [47:55]
Drew Rabadu
I can see people for Therapy in only the states where I'm licensed, which is New York, Texas, Wisconsin and Connecticut. However, if people just want like action items and sort of ways to move forward, I have, you know, I can coach people in other states that I'm not licensed in, but we can't go back and look at, you know, different things that have happened in your life previously in depth.
- [48:25]
C
Right.
- [48:26]
Drew Rabadu
That's what I can't do. I also am certified in ketamine assisted psychotherapy. So I love ketamine assisted psychotherapy, have done it myself, do it myself, you know, medically. And it is a very powerful tool. A lot of times women with herpes, it benefits them too. I have resources on my website. I have an online course that's a lot of focusing on, you know, a lot of the things we talked about today, like what do you want to get clear on this herpes diagnosis brought up all this stuff. So how do we work with those things?
- [49:06]
C
Right?
- [49:06]
Drew Rabadu
How do we move forward? How do you make a plan for your life? A new blueprint, you know, is what we're sort of doing, creating a new approach to your life. People can get a hold of me through. I mean the best way is through my website, which is www.counning. withdrew all together. And I have a contact form there. I'm usually pretty quick to respond and that's, that's most. If you're interested in a group, get in touch with me as soon as possible. We're going to start one soon and I also have an upcoming group. September 10th at 6pm you can sign up on my website for just like a one off group.
- [49:59]
Courtney Brain
What do you have after that? September 10th, because this, this will be up after that.
- [50:02]
Drew Rabadu
Okay, got it. I have.
- [50:08]
Courtney Brain
Okay.
- [50:09]
Drew Rabadu
At 6pm Eastern. The time zone is important.
- [50:16]
Courtney Brain
Yeah, yeah. October 9th at what time? 6pm Eastern, 6pm and what is this group?
- [50:27]
Drew Rabadu
It is the one once a month, just support group that people let me know you're coming and I'll send you the link and you just get to come in, turn your camera on or off, say something or not, you know, whatever feels comfortable for you. Sometimes people want to come a couple times before they say something. But you know, there's an expectation of confidentiality. There's an expectation of, you know, respectful communication, which of course is what I'm there for to help make sure happens. Not usually a problem, but you know, and it's just sort of like a place where you don't have to make a commitment for 12 weeks.
- [51:12]
C
Right.
- [51:12]
Drew Rabadu
You can come and just, just show up and get support or give support.
- [51:18]
Courtney Brain
Okay. All right. I went back to my notes and I was writing down things that you were saying. So this, this feels like a good place to wrap up or close out. We got how to contact you. I'll add this to the show notes. And yeah, Dr. Drew, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate your presence. And yeah, you can go ahead and hop out of here. I will close this out. Unless you want to hang out for a little bit and then we can check in after I finish the closeout.
- [51:48]
Drew Rabadu
Okay, Sounds good.
- [51:50]
Courtney Brain
Cool. All right. That concludes this episode of something positive for positive people. Please like, rate, review, share. Subscribe to this podcast and you can visit www.spfpp.org for a variety of support resources. We have the support groups for women with Dr. Drew as one of the people. We have coaching options. We have different ways of getting medications and treatments for people who are just. Valtrex isn't working for. There's the survey data that is up from 2024. If you go to SPFPP.org data, you will see some of the findings from our latest herpes survey. And we're in the works of putting together an entire other survey for 2025. We'll be looking for people to test out that survey. This will be an ongoing one. It'll be more concise. There's more detail to it. Yes, we focus on stigma, but also there are components that would be useful to the health profession. So maybe we can get some funding in order to get better resources or push for a better test. Like that is step one. If we can get a better test, we can have completely different outcomes long term. For people who are living with or struggling with their herpes diagnosis. I am Courtney Brain, and till next time, stay pleasure positive. I'm saying pleasure positive now instead of sex positive.
- [53:17]
Drew Rabadu
Okay.