← Something Positive for Positive People
Something Positive for Positive People
SPFPP 363: Transcending the Relationship Spectrum into Softness
01:11:41
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- [00:03]
A
All right, so we were just kind of talking about what we were gonna talk about before I wanted to even start the intro. And you're someone who I've followed on Instagram for a while, and I've seen just sort of this, like, the. The evolution of how you've shown yourself, how you've talked about life and where you are in your life. And I think that that's very synonymous with something positive for positive people. I think the first time I saw anything from you, you were posting stories talking about having herpes. And what we were just talking about is just, like, being big on challenging stigmas in general. And we were probably going to get into, like, talking about relationships. And that's when I was like, let me go ahead and just hit record. And we just. We just talk. So I got you for, I think, 75 minutes. If for any reason you need to go earlier, please feel free to let me know. But I really just want to talk and begin with, I guess, you know, everybody comes here for the herpes stuff, so I'll let you introduce yourself in the way that you want to be addressed and whatever it is that you want to share in relation to your herpes diagnosis. I'll go on mute while you talk, and then when I see that you're done, I'll jump on and provide input, feedback, or ask you a question.
- [01:24]
B
All right, perfect. That sounds great. Yep. So I'm Holly Estrada. I am very open about my relationships, my work. I am a sex worker, and I was telling you I'm very passionate about D D stigmatization. So I'm excited to talk about herpes and. And whatever else comes up about it. Um, as far as I know, I do not have genital herpes. I got a positive HSV1 blood test a couple years ago. I. I don't, like, get frequent cold sores, so I have always told people that, like, I have what I think is pretty inactive HSV1. But what I believe about herpes is that it can spread anywhere, it can be passed on anyway. So I kind of live with this mindset of, like, if I get genital herpes, it's not the end of the world. And I've had partners who were HSV2 positive. I've. Obviously, we can get into it, but in the sex work industry, like, probably everybody has it, so it's. It's not like, a big concern to me, but it is something that I am aware of, and I like to bring gentle, positive awareness about in my. My community. I don't Have a big page. I just like to be very active in the community that I'm on. Yeah, I guess in terms of introduction, besides all that, like, I have pets and I stay home and I live with my boyfriend. And we just like vibe. Like, I don't have a crazy life. I just started school and I do a lot less of the sex work now, which has been an interesting change for me. But I used to be in a poly relationship, and so I like, learned a lot about open relationship styles there, but not so much of that anymore.
- [03:27]
A
Yeah. All right, so I want to address the herpes and sex work later. I think it's more important right now to talk about the. The relationship. The relationship changes structures. Now I mentioned the natural trajectory change, evolution, whichever word we want to use, of something positive for positive people. Because now so much of this used to be dating with herpes. Sharing people's experiences more so being single and having herpes. And I'm noticing that more people are wanting to be in relationships. Relationships can be whatever they are designed to be. So what I want to speak to at this point really is just like, how has. How have things been different for you between dating, being in non monogamous relationships? And then I'm assuming, is the relationship now monogamous?
- [04:28]
B
It has been monogamous for like, maybe a few months because I haven't been doing active sex work with anybody else. But in terms of emotional monogamy, ever since I broke up with my partner that I was with when I met my boyfriend, we have decided that we don't want to have relationship polyamory. Like, openness in terms of sexuality is something that we're fine with. Just hasn't happened lately. But yeah, it is emotionally monogamous now.
- [05:02]
A
Yeah. How'd you get there? Like, what, what steered you in this direction? I find that there's usually two paths that people thr find themselves. From one relationship style to the other. One that they really, really just like the other person. Or two, this other relationship style has traumatized them so much that, like, they rant. Oh, is it both? You may have. All right, well, here, I'll let you. I'll let you speak. Go ahead.
- [05:29]
B
This is funny. Okay, well, to go back a little bit, I started out having relationships in a very monogamous mindset because I grew up super relig. So I didn't know that there was any other way of having a relationship. I got married very young, and I had never slept with anybody else before with my husband because we waited till we were Married, and I was 19. And then, like, four years into the relationship, I was starting to learn more about myself in the world. When I came out as a bisexual, and I started calling myself poly because I wanted to explore sexual connections with other people and get to know myself better as a sexual person. And the sex life with my husband was not satisfying to me personally. So I said I was poly. I left the relationship. I started dating somebody else, and then engaging in other relationships along the way. And it was a lot of fun for me, and it felt very true to me for a while. But the two things that you said are the past actually kind of happen at the same time, because I was dating this guy. He had been married the entire time we were together. He had. He would go on dates and have multiple relationships. And I did. I went on dates, too. But when I met my boyfriend and I started really developing a partnership that I wanted to last forever, my former partner was super jealous and didn't, like. He would, like, say he supported the relationship, but then he would do things that made me feel like he didn't support it. And he was also very controlling of me doing sex work. So I was just like, okay, maybe Polly is not for me. Maybe I don't.
- [07:15]
A
What, are we talking about this relationship now, or are we talking about something else?
- [07:19]
B
He was controlling about this relationship that I'm in now.
- [07:22]
A
Okay, so, all right, we're talking very recently. Got it.
- [07:25]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was all last year. Yeah.
- [07:28]
A
So.
- [07:31]
B
So I was with a poly man, and he was married, and then I started doing sex work and dating my boyfriend, and then he was, like, had things to say. So part of it was that I was, like, a little burned by poly. I thought that, oh, maybe I don't fit in poly. Maybe I'm not a good poly partner. Maybe I can't do it. And that was frustrating. But then at the same time, my boyfriend and I were developing a relationship that felt so satisfying in every area that I need a relationship to be satisfied in. And I was like, I don't even know if I care about having sex with other people, let alone developing a relationship, because what's the point? Like, why would I not put everything into this one? And that was a really hard mindset for me to even have, because for the two years that I was poly, there's a lot of this propaganda of, like, more is better. And it's not taking away from one person. It's just bringing in others. And I realized that, like, it is taken away from one person when you're with somebody else. Like, I couldn't be with one partner without feeling like I was thinking about the other one or, like, I had to connect with them or thinking about, like, okay, now I have to go do extra stuff with them. And maybe that was just the polyamory that I had. Maybe it was, like, because the other guy wasn't actually that good at it. I don't know. But either way, I fell in love with my boyfriend. We went through a lot of things together that really deepened our relationship. And then we were like, this is the one that we are going to be in for life, so we're not going to invest in any others because we know that we don't want other relationships for life. And then the sexual openness is just. We don't want to have, like, this really hard fast. We don't think that sexual monogamy is, like, the trick to a lasting relationship. So openness there is fine. But, like, also, naturally, we just don't really do it.
- [09:32]
A
All right, this is a quick question. Is your. I know you talk about your past relationship in a way that, like, it seems like people know who that is. So I want to be careful with what questions I ask and how.
- [09:46]
B
Right.
- [09:46]
A
So on the, like, are you comfortable speaking a little bit about that relationship without it compromising the person's identity?
- [09:56]
B
I guess, yeah, absolutely. I'm fine with talking about it. I don't talk about it super publicly online because, like, screenshots and things can be written, but people know, and that's totally fine for me. Like, it was a public relationship. And something that's hard about public relationships is that then the breakup is public and people are very curious about what happened. And there were a lot of things, and it can be a little hard to, like, go out there and say, like, this person who was the, like, advocate for good communication and polyamorous relationships, like, he really didn't do that behind closed doors. Like, it's hard to go online and say that where, like, he can see it. I feel a little safer in a podcast setting because I think it's just one on one. We're just having a conversation. But no, fine. Like, I'm not going to name names, but it's fine if people know.
- [10:54]
A
All right, so the question that I had then was, why did he have issues with this partner?
- [11:04]
B
I think he felt very threatened. Honestly, I. I really wish I knew, because I also believe that he was trying so hard to be polyamorous and to be supportive, but it was these little things that he would do like, not even little. Like he just criticized the masculinity of my boyfriend and put him down and, and had a lot of resistance and rules about the way we connected. I don't know why. I. I wish I knew. I.
- [11:39]
A
You want me to answer that for you?
- [11:42]
B
Yeah.
- [11:43]
A
Because your boyfriend is black, right?
- [11:45]
B
Yes, he is.
- [11:46]
A
Why? Dude, I. I say this and I think it's important for me to speak to. I think I've seen more of this. Even in my experience with being non monogamous I've had partners. Like there's been a thing that would happen that I think under most circumstances wouldn't have been an issue. There was someone I was dating who um, her boyfriend worked out at the same gym that I worked out at and he saw me. I had like a feeling, but I didn't. I never knew what he looked like. But all of a sudden after him seeing me, she wasn't allowed to see me anymore. And she never would tell me or say like what happened. But there's a direct correlation between the time that we last saw each other and then what happened for us to not see each other. So I think that there's not just like, I'm sure it's age, maybe height, maybe attractiveness that just in your words, you know, may make someone feel threatened. But I wonder how much of this like happens in other people's relationships to where the control is there. They're trying to kind of like police who you can see what quality of the relationship looks like. And the more successful non monogamous or polyamorous relationships that I've seen is where, you know, there is that freedom for all parties involved to co create and decide, here's what the relationship looks like, here's what it, you know, we want with each other and all parties involved directly at least know what it is that they're giving and getting from the other person. So that was all I wanted to speak to in regards to that because I was, I was curious the whole time I was sitting. Is this what it is? Is this what it is? Because that's what it was in my.
- [13:34]
B
Case as well, to be honest. I'm glad you said that because I, I'm so scared to like make things about race and I say that quote unquote, because that's what other people will say it is. But, but a lot of times that's. That is what it is. And as a non black person, like I feel scared to be like, this is probably because you're black. But I have had thoughts. I had thoughts of that so many times while I was in the relationship with my ex. And the thing is, like, now that you said that, I'm like, you know, it probably had a lot to do with it because this man said he was so poly, but he wasn't. Or he said he was so feminist, but he wasn't. He said he was so progressive. But, like, I would not be surprised if he had. Even if the level of threat came from the fact that my boyfriend was black. Like, that's. That's still about my boyfriend being black. So, yeah, honestly, I would not be surprised if that was like the unconscious, underlying, or even conscious root of it. But, yeah, it just was not working for me.
- [14:40]
A
Yeah. And I don't like to make things inherently about race either, because again, he could have been threatened by a number of other things. If he was going to lose you, he was going to lose you because the emotional connection was building and perhaps he felt threatened by that and he wanted his partner to himself or however. But to just to ask, were there other issues outside of your relationship to your current boyfriend that your ex partner had? Like, did he have any issues with sex work or other partners that he knew what they looked like, or did it seem to mostly gravitate towards this relationship and his insecurities around that?
- [15:20]
B
I wasn't in any other relationships that got to this level while I was with my ex, but he, he absolutely had a big problem with the sex work. And that was extremely confusing to me at first, and I understand now what it was. But that was so confusing to me because I was like, this is not any different than at the start of our relationship. I was in a massive hoe phase, like getting on a dating app, and within 30 minutes showing up at somebody's house to sleep with them. And that was, like, fine in the relationship with my ex because he felt he had a lot of control over it. But then when I started doing sex work, I had to take control of my sex life, which was not something that I had had in the relationship with the ex. It was a BDSM style relationship with a lot of power exchange. So my ex wasn't comfortable with me having my own power over my sex life. And it was interesting because he was, like, compensating by not putting rules on me in a sex life setting, by putting all these extra rules on me with my boyfriend. And none of it was working, obviously. Like, there were. There were a lot of very serious things that happened in that time span of me developing the relationship with my boyfriend, but also, like, needing to make my money by having sex with other people. And all of it just showed me that, like, being in a relationship with somebody who couldn't relinquish control was not good for me. I mean, I never wanted to be in a relationship with somebody who controlled me, but I had thought that if I'm choosing the control, I get to take it away, but that wasn't actually how it works.
- [17:06]
A
Yeah, you know, I learned in we had a safe sex expo. Well, we had to call it the Something positive for positive people expo because of the words. Right. And we have one of our educators, Steph Zapata, who did, like, an intro to kink and bdsm. And one of the things that they said that always stands out to me is that the dom doesn't have power unless the sub is giving them the power. So in these relationship dynamics, I think the vanilla world, 50 shades of gray, and whatever else is out there has really screwed people up in thinking that the dom, what they say goes. But if there's no one to follow the instructions that, you know, has chosen to give that power and authority to you to create these dynamics, then you don't have power. And that's just something that's always stuck with me. So I really do hope that people who are looking for a dom are looking for someone to be more in that leadership role, for them to understand that they have all the power in the relationship. So just being understanding and intentional about who you're giving that power to is going to be something that is really important and can contribute to the experience that you have. And you said something interesting too, with. With choice. Right. Like, because I'm choosing this. Right? What? I forget how you said it. Exactly.
- [18:27]
B
So I thought that choosing to be in a power exchange relationship meant I could choose to not be controlled. And that is exactly the way it should be. It should be the sub has their foot on the gas pedal or the brake, and the dom is driving the car. But then when. When it came down to it, he didn't actually believe that I had any power at all. Because when I asked to stop things or, like, change things, it was met with a lot of resistance or just rejection.
- [18:58]
A
Yeah, and rejection in this context. So we talk about this a lot on the podcast, right? Just people's fear of rejection for putting something out there to be accepted or denied by the other person. And in this case, I think that a lot of people maybe stay in relationships a lot longer than they need to or know that they should, because of, like, this kind of aspect of rejection as well. So can you tell me, like, at what point did you feel like it was time to go and then begin taking the action and the steps in order to get out of this relationship where, you know, you. I'm sure there was familiarity, there was safety.
- [19:42]
B
There was.
- [19:43]
A
That may have kept other people or other people may stay in these relationships a lot longer. Like, can you talk through what that was like for you to make the decision to leave?
- [19:53]
B
Yeah, absolutely. It was hard. So having gotten divorced, I kind of had some experience of, like, I can't do what other people expect me to do. I have to do what's right for me. But this one was almost just as hard because it felt like, on paper, it should have been perfect. I don't think I really realized I needed to leave until March of 2024. And then I actually did end the relationship in June, officially. But things were definitely getting bad. Like, in February. Things were, like, I had asked for something to change, and it wasn't changing. And then it became a much bigger issue throughout the spring. But honestly, like, let's see what happened? I. I just had a. I had a conversation with somebody where I, like, finally told her what was actually happening in my relationship. Like, things that I hadn't been telling anybody. And she asked me, so, why are you staying? And I was like, oh, you know, why am I? And then this is gonna get a little weird. But then I, like, was journaling, and I realized that it was a new moon in Pisces, and, like, the new moon in Pisces was all about, like, letting go of things that you had been holding onto for a long time or that had used to mean a lot to you but didn't or were harming you now. It was crazy. Like, I literally realized that night. It was early April, I think, and I was like, yeah, I need. I need to stop this. But what we did first was we took a break. So we just went. No contact for a month. And then the month was so, like, whoo. I could breathe, and I could process things. And then I was like, no more. And then we started talking again. The end of May. I did try. I. I went back, and I did try really hard to stay in the relationship. I flew to his state because we were long distance, and I tried so hard to, like, ask for a relationship where we were in each other's lives, but I had really firm boundaries, and in the end, he didn't agree with my boundaries. So technically, he, like, broke up with me, he was like, no, I can't do this. But like, it was, it had been over for a little while at that point, but it was a hard process and there was a lot of like really solid knowing and then a little up and down and back and forth. But ultimately I got through it with the help of a lot of friends who just like very lovingly pointed out what was happening and like told me that I deserved better.
- [22:49]
A
That's amazing. So you had a support system, you set boundaries and you. Well, I guess there was a consequence on his end. But if you were unable to get your boundaries respected and adhered to, then I imagine that there would have been consequences from your end. Like, hey, well, if you can't respect these boundaries, just what we have to do. You don't have to say verbatim what the boundaries were. But can you give us like some of, if you can contextually just kind of tell us what some of them were in the ballpark? Like not. You don't have to go into super specific details. But I want this to be something useful to anyone who might be in a harmful relationship, a self harming relationship or abusive relationship to be able to see an example of what setting boundaries looks like and understand that if the person doesn't want to adhere to them, you're going to be okay leaving.
- [23:45]
B
Yeah, absolutely. One of the boundaries was I need to have full autonomy and control over my work. And for me it was sex work. But I do know that in abusive relationships, like, the perpetrator will thwart the efforts of the other person to make money in an attempt to gain control over them. And I do think there was some of that happening for me. So I was like, I have full control over what I do for work, how I work, who I work with, when I work. And he, he did try to, like, he did want to honor that. The thing that was hard was that like even earlier in the relationship, before we were at this like ultimatum moment, I had had moments like that before. And then when it actually came down to it, like it didn't actually work. But that was one of the boundaries which was like, you don't have any say over this. And other things had to do with a little bit more of like my personal time, my body, the way I engaged sexually with others. And then like the time I spent with my boyfriend, I was like, like, I can't have you making a problem about this. And that's very specific to a polyamorous relationship. But I would say in an abusive control Relationship where, like, one, like the abused partner isn't allowed to have friends or, like, go do stuff or whenever they spend time with friends, the abuser is like, you never spend any time with me. You're always with your friends. Like, that sort of thing is a slippery slope and probably not great because it's so important to be with other people. And in high control relationships, the controlling partner doesn't want their partner to be with other people. And honestly, I think I only saw a little bit of that with me, but I think it was there where it was like, certain people he didn't want me to spend time with, maybe because he knew that, like, they would be an influence on me to see that things were not great with him.
- [25:52]
A
Can you say that last part again?
- [25:55]
B
I. Wait, what?
- [25:58]
A
Well, the about. So what I heard, I just wanted you to say it again, in your words, was that what an abuser will do is keep you away from people who are going to probably show you that the abuser is not a good person for you.
- [26:11]
B
Exactly. Yeah. Because they know like people. And I think that the level of abuse that I experienced, I'm in therapy this. With this to even call it abuse, because that's hard for me. But I think that the level I experienced was very different from what people generally think of when they think of abuse. But somebody who's abusing somebody else generally knows what they're doing. They're smart, like, they know what's happening and they know that other people are going to be able to see it. And they're like manipulators, narcissists. They're so calculated and they know who. Who doesn't like them because they can see through the. So like, he. He was like, steering me around the people I was interacting with intentionally because there were people that if I had talked to them for too long, they would have been like, hey, girl, and couldn't do. Couldn't have that.
- [27:04]
A
I would like to also make a comment here, because I think this is so relevant, is that the evolution of narcissist abusers is becoming more prevalent to where we're so on social media, like putting the word narcissist in your face and sharing our unique experiences that, yeah, a narcissist probably, you know, if you're a narcissist, you won't care. You won't look at that. But someone who's, I guess, like a smarter narcissist might see those things and go, oh, okay, so I got to be careful about that thing. And they may Find more creative ways to navigate or manipulate a person into the kind of relationship or beneficial relationship for them that they would have by minimizing the overt narcissistic traits and tendencies that are out there. So I just want to name that for people. Because narcissism and abuse won't always look like that girl's TikTok video that went viral or that therapists. Here's 10 things to ask yourself to identify. 5. You're dating a narcissist. No, it's going to be very creative and sometimes and calculated like you said. So I think it is important that we do not only find people that are good for us and have our best interest at heart around us, but we've got to stay connected to support systems and communities that will tell us things that we don't want to hear. Right? Like I'm sharing that relationship. You ain't want to hear anybody tell you, hey, this ain't. This ain't for you. This ain't good. Right? We don't want to hear that when we're in it because we're getting something out of it. But once it comes to a place where what I'm getting out of this is not worth what I have to give for it, I think that asking that question can often help snap us out of a potentially abusive relationship. Before I ask my next question, is there anything you want to add to that at all?
- [29:07]
B
The only thing I want to say is one of my favorite memes is like a reductious or the reductionist, whatever it is. And it's like, oh, no, the favorite. You're the worst person. You know, learned therapy words. And that is exactly what happens. Because narcissism is, like, plastered around and put on everybody. And I don't think that that's something that is super healthy for anyone. But specifically people who are with narcissists, like, that's not going to be great. And it. It does seem to be very true that, like, the worst people, you know, are learning these things and then, like, kind of using it against you to prop themselves up. So that is something to be aware of. And, like, if you think you're with a narcissist, like, don't tell them. And also, like, talk to a therapist about it and not a friend.
- [29:57]
A
Oh, yeah, okay. That's really good advice. If you think you're with a narcissist, don't tell them. I didn't think about that. The next part I want to talk about is really emotional availability, right? So in Practicing non monogamy or polyamory. Right. I think that you. You spoke to some things at the beginning of our conversation that I want to kind of expand on, and I'll share a little bit of my experience. Like, I told you what I'll do. I'll ask the question, give you this whole story, and then by the end of it, you're like, what's the question? So I'm going to give the context first. Um, I'm someone who thought that I was non monogamous from 2020 through through 2023. Probably 2024 was when I actually told my now girlfriend. I was like, hey, I like what we're doing here more than I like what I'm doing everywhere else. And I didn't tell her, hey, be monogamous. I was like. I was sitting there like, all right, so I'm going to just do this. And just. It just organically unfolded to a monogamous relationship, right? And so I recognized for myself, looking back that I thought that I was so emotionally available and aware and intelligent that I can have all these relationships. And as I started to come into things with this relationship, I actually recognized that some of those things were actually emotional unavailability, which I find to be very interesting. In the dating world that we live in, you kind of have to be really selective in who you let in. Because in the swiping, right, people, ghost people find something better, you find something better. The compatibilities don't line up. And so to let someone in every other every few swipes, whatever, you kind of have to protect yourself. And you get really good at protecting yourself. So you may create like, a new superficiality of emotional connection, because some people do, you know, need connection in order to connect or to have sex. So I found that what I would do or what I was doing is using herpes as an example of vulnerability. So many other people see me being open about and talking about herpes as a vulnerability thing. And it's not like the things that I don't really talk about are vulnerable, right? And so to other people, like, oh, my God, he's so emotionally available or vulnerable. And I'd like, fed into that. And I'm like, okay, yeah, because it is because they said, I'm emotionally available and open. That's what I am. And so as I started to see that and then brush up against the relationship I'm in, like, I ain't gonna say she don't care about that, but she only care about that. And becoming vulnerable became more Of a challenge. Because what she needs from me in terms of vulnerability is for me to ask for what I want and what I need. Very difficult. She needs for me to verbalize some of what I'm feeling. And I'm like, well, I've already been vulnerable. Like, why do you need that? Right. So the. To. To bring that all back full circle to what the question is. I would like to know what your experience has been in terms of navigating non monogamy between emotional availability or emotional availability. And then I'll just kind of speak to how that's looking and the transition from that into this relationship that you have with your boyfriend.
- [33:39]
B
Okay, first off, I love this question. Secondly, I relate to you so much. First, from the like, oh, maybe I do kind of just want to be with this one person and bringing that up and not really, like, literally. My boyfriend has never said he's poly. And when I told him that, I was like, I don't think I want to do poly anymore. I was like, is that okay? He was like, yes. But this topic of masking emotional unavailability as vulnerability is. I've never heard another person talk about it the way I think of it, because this is exactly what I do. I am very scared of actual vulnerability and showing people what really affects me. So I pick the things that affect other people. And I'm like, this is. Oh, this is so vulnerable. Like, let's talk about this. But it doesn't really matter that much to me. And I think a lot of people do this. And I think the environment of non monogamy has to train you to be this way almost because you can't actually be emotionally available for that many people. Like, it's. It's really hard to do that not only for their stuff, but to like share yourself with so many people. Like, I do think that is really hard. And people that actually do it have their own protection mechanisms somewhere that maybe they aren't even aware of. And that's not to say that it's a bad thing to be vulnerable with a lot of different people. I just think it's very hard on a person's psychic me from what I've seen in other people and from my own experience. But I could be wrong. Anyway, all that to say I. The thing that I pick to be so vulnerable about is sex. And sex to me is like, it's like breathing. It is not hard to talk about. It's not hard to do. And when I talk about it or when I would like be going on these dates and engaging sexually with people, right away they'd be like, whoa, I've never met anybody like you. Like, you're so confident and brave and you, like, know exactly what you want and who you are. And I was like, no, I just, I just know how to do sex. That's my thing that I'm good at. And then like, taking it all the way into sex work, I finally, when I was in the middle of performing and like, having sex on camera, I realized, like, I, I had this crazy moment where I was like, I can only do this in a certain way, but if somebody were to see me, like, I, I don't know how to explain this. There was a time my boyfriend and I were having sex and I had this moment where I had a thought and I was like, I hope nobody ever sees me like this. And it was crazy because I was like, I have sex on camera all the time. Like, I'm technically doing this, but when it's actual vulnerability, when it's actual intimacy, when it's actual love and connection with somebody, like, nobody can see that. I don't even want to talk about that with other people. Like, I'm shy about that in a way that I've never experienced in my life. But it's because I've never actually had the thing that's so precious that it's like, scary to talk about. So I forget if I answered your question because I was just so interested in this topic.
- [36:53]
A
Yeah, you. The, the answer, I think came in you, you said, I guess, like what I heard was performative vulnerability in a way. And these protection mechanisms that have to come into place because, like, I'm learning that in order for me to be most emotionally available and vulnerable to the relationship that I'm in, right? Like, I don't have the physical time to develop and deepen these connections and relationships with other people because I value this so much that it's very easy to not be present for and get wrong. You spoke to something earlier too. Like, I remember when I first started seeing my now girlfriend and like, even if I was with other people, I was like thinking about other thinking about her. And I was like, oh, this probably isn't fair to this person, right? That like, I'm here, but I'm not here. And that was one of the things that, you know, when I had the thought the non monogamy programming is like, oh, no, that's just your internalized monogamy talking, right? But the reality was that I just like, what I'm doing here more. And I don't know that there's any real, I don't have to call them resources, but something that just like takes what we are able to learn from non monogamy and apply it to monogamy and give people the options of what makes their relationship worth co creating. So being able to get the communication skills and the understanding of what makes all these different kinds of relationships, what makes them work, how do we build on those? I didn't really get that in monogamy and I did get that in non monogamy. But also there's this like residual of me being non monogamous that carried into my now monogamous relationship that made the beginning of our relationship a little bit rocky that also has these moments of popping up throughout the course of my relationship now. So yes, the you answered the question in regards to the emotional availability and it not looking like emotional availability or being actually emotionally unavailable.
- [39:19]
B
Yeah, I like how what you just said is that there's good parts to non monogamy and there's good parts to monogamy but like when you're so far over on one side you kind of reject the other. And what we actually should be doing is taking all the good things from them and using them in the type of relationship that we are interested in building the most. And I have noticed that the things that I really value that non monogamy gave me that the monogamy that I learned growing up had no part of was the level of communication and actual trust that you have to have with somebody. Not just rule setting and then the autonomy and independency of independence of each person that's so valued and prioritized even like time away from each other or time doing your own thing. In my relationship like we each have hobbies that we spend a lot of time on or like work or maybe not work so much. But we value time apart and we prioritize that. We make sure it happens. But it's not time with another person and it's time that is building us up so that we are better for each other. And maybe a lot of monogamous relationships have this. It was just a style I grew up with was very much like you can't have friends, you can't have hobbies, you have to do everything together and if you don't, you're cheating on your partner, you can't masturbate, that's cheating on your partner. Like crazy stuff like that. So I do think it's important to just look at all the different relationship styles and say, like, what's good for you and what's just good objectively? And what can you bring into your partnership or your partnerships that you are having?
- [41:02]
A
Yeah, that is very well said. And to add on about the. Take the good and non monogamy. Take the good and monogamy, I think that just, just speaking back to what we see or what we don't see, even we see more. And maybe this is just my algorithm. Depending on your algorithm, let me say that you'll see things. When I was single, I saw a lot of relationship stuff. When I'm in a relationship, I'm seeing a lot of everybody cheats and you need to be single stuff. It's so interesting what these algorithms are doing to people. I was having a conversation with my girlfriend about something, past relationships and like, things that we didn't like. I opened my Instagram and like, things are showing up that we talked about that would invoke an intense emotional reaction. And I, I've seen it enough times for it to be a thing. But like, first off, you can't tell me these things ain't listening. Like, that's, that's the first thing. But second, the ball, the taking the best of monogamy and non monogamy really does just look like what aligns with your values. And we're not really taught or shown how to identify our own values, what's important to us, and then to align ourselves with somebody else, be able to identify and communicate these to them and then find out if what they're communicating is compatible and if they actually know what they're communicating. There's all these just misfires and it's so easy to get caught up in. Okay, well, I like, I like this right now. And overlook what's really important to you. And that's kind of where that support system comes in too. And we gotta, like, really be vulnerable, not just with, you know, other people, but also with ourselves and be real and ask those hard questions of all right, you know, what am I doing here? Because I think everybody kind of has a moment where they're like, what the am I doing? And then you either keep doing the same thing or you do things a little bit different. Anything that you have or want to add to that?
- [43:17]
B
No, I think you totally, like, hit the nail on the head with that. Having the support system is so important to me. And something that I do find interesting about leaving non monogamy is that I have so many friendships, dude. Like, I'm always talking to a Friend. I have sleepovers with my girlfriends. Like, I'm always planning some trip with somebody, but it's such a different level of intimacy and connection than, like, I'm having sex with somebody else or I'm going on dates or I'm pursuing building a relationship with someone. And it is so much more supportive. You know, poly people are all about the community, and it takes a village. And I agree with that mentality. Like, that's some of the good that I love. But for me, it really works best in the form of female friendships. And building that support system is better for my relationship with my boyfriend. It's better for me. And it also, like, you know, if anything's going on, they're the ones who are going to call it out. Like, another platonic or sexual partner isn't going to, like, say stuff about my relationship the same way a friend will. So I'm a huge advocate of friendships as your support systems, rather than the. They have to be like somebody that I'm. As your support system, which is new for me.
- [44:39]
A
Yeah, yeah, that. That's interesting that you say that too, because I think about, like, being in those kinds of relationships, right? Like, if someone's already with their person and I'm like a partner, I wonder if I'm on my deathbed and then like, your kid has a soccer game, like, are you gonna come to the hospital and tell your kid, like, hey, I can't make it to your soccer game, right? And that was one of the things that had me go, huh? I don't have that right? And just. It was a thought that I felt like I needed to just kind of share because I don't know how many people are going to hear this and go, damn, you know what? I'm. This isn't for me. But speaking to the vulnerability of people that you were having sex with, right? Like, how vulnerable is it to end relationships and say, hey, I'm gonna be in this relationship, like, monogamously, like, we're not me and you aren't gonna have sex anymore. Because to me, it kind of feels like coming out like I'm straight, but I've never come out before. But to come out as monogamous after having said all this about how great non monogamy is, how everybody should try it, and all. All the people that, you know, like, I've had sex with, to see that and be like, oh, what?
- [45:58]
B
Oh my gosh, I'm dying over here. Because I feel like I am coming out on this podcast a little bit. Be like, hey, like, I don't even have sex on camera anymore. Like, oh, I lied. It's crazy. Yeah, it's weird like that. But because I did, like, monogamy to polyamory to monogamy, and there was bisexuality in there somewhere too. I'm like, well, this isn't my first rodeo, but I will say that, like, I. I've tried to not be like, we are monogamous. And I think my boyfriend and I both try really hard to say that because we value not controlling the other person. And in our minds, monogamy is very synonymous with controlling your part. And we're always like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it would be fine to, like, have sex with other people. But, like, are we actually gonna do that? I don't know, like, for my job, it's a little bit, like, sometimes, maybe. But, yeah, no, it's been weird.
- [46:59]
A
Listen, I speak from my own experience. I ain't been tested. And. And since we've been together, like, I got tested and, like, I. I don't. I forgot how to put a condom on. You know what I'm saying? It's a lot of things that I just don't have to worry about. I made the most money that I have, like, being in this relationship, and it's freed me up from a lot of things that I was doing that maybe would have been in my way from experiencing the career success. I have better intimacy with my guy friends. I've gotten to a point where I've been able to really take on a lot of things and identify my capacity. And just because I've. I've been at capacity, and I know what that is. I also have, like, a reason being, like, okay, my partner's holding me accountable to not maintain being at my limit and my capacity. So I'm able to, like, dial it back a little bit more. And I think that there's more to be said for not necessarily, like, the. The being monogamous or, like, not. It's more about, like, what you do in the relationship structure that you're in, right? Like, where is your energy? Where's your presence? Where's your awareness? Right? Like, if we have. I like to picture, like, eight energetic arms, like, reaching for things. And the things are your career, your passion, your hobbies, your relationship, your family, your community entertainment. Right? And so what it felt like was that one of those arms was relationship, but that had, like, eight other arms attaching to other relationships. But you don't have, like. You don't have all of that. So I'm like holding on to each of these by a finger and getting a little bit of fulfillment from everyone during our time together. Which my version of the vulnerability was through the sex, Right? Because what more, how much more vulnerable can you be than completely naked inside or being penetrated by someone? Right? Like, that is a visual representation of vulnerability. And the conversations that need to be had about that all really seemed like vulnerability, but actually it was more of like a redirection, right? I'm actually holding the vulnerability behind my back. I'm like, hey, look right here. Look right here. Stay right here. Right? And in seeing that, I can't unsee it. And it's just been really pleasant for me to identify, align myself with, and choose a relationship structure with somebody based on something more than just what the sex is. Now that has made the sex incredible. I've never known sex to, like, keep getting better with the same person. It's always been like, all right, that was cool. Like, now I want, I want better sex with somebody else rather than investing in that deeper rooted connection and expanding it from there. I see you making faces. Go ahead.
- [50:06]
B
I'm crying. Everything you're saying is like, on the mark. It's. It's so relatable. It was very funny that you said you haven't been tested in a while, because I, I can't, I can't really remember the last time I was tested. I know it was in the last two months, but from the industry standard of it being every 14 days, I'm like, oh, my God, I haven't been tested in so long. But yeah, no, it's crazy. The, the, like hanging on to everything by a thread, and I'm getting a little bit of fulfillment from all of these things that is like this distraction from actual fulfillment, but the actual vulnerability that it takes to get there. And for people that are scared of vulnerability, like, any of these little distractions are going to be so attractive. So I fully relate to that. I used to hear of, like, monogamous Christian couples who had been together for 25 years, and they were like, the sex gets better. And I was like, yeah, for you, Janice, Like, I don't know what you're talking about. Because it wasn't for me in my marriage that lasted almost five years, it was getting worse. And I know now that, like, I was just. I was so young, I had no communication tools. I had no ability to actually be intimate with another person because I wasn't even intimate with myself. And I don't know what these Christian monogamous couples who've been married for 25 years. I don't know what they're on, but some of them have got it right. And maybe it is the blood of the lamb. I don't even know. But in my relationship now, like, yes, it gets better. And we're a year in, and I'm like, whoa, what's it going to be like next year? And that's such a fun thought that for me, when I was chasing so much, like, now I can just kind of like, relax into life. And there's so much peace that comes from surrendering to actual vulnerability and intimacy and everything that that might mean and then just like watching it multiply good things in your life. It's crazy.
- [52:13]
A
It is. It is. Now has being non monogamous for. Because let me ask this first. You were in a marriage for five years, 19 to 24. Right. Coming out of that, like, did that do anything for you or to you that is impacting this current relationship that you're in? Like, you were in that one, you know, inherently, but now you're choosing. You made the choice to be in this relationship. Can you speak to the difference between that? Because we're also talking about tackling the stigma. Right. So you're a divorced woman in her 20s or. How old are you?
- [52:56]
B
I'm 26 now.
- [52:58]
A
All right, so you're a divorced woman who's 26 years old, who's now in another relationship. Are you traumatized? Is that ruining your relationship like people think it would?
- [53:09]
B
No, I am. I'm not traumatized from the marriage or the divorce at all. And I, I was scared. A lot of people told me, if you divorce your husband, you will never get it. Like, because they knew I wanted to have kids. They were like, if you get divorced, you will never get to have kids. You will never fall in love. You will never be blessed by God. You will never be happy again. They told me that, like, he would never find love either. And I was ruining his chances of being happy for his entire life. He seems fine. He's been in a relationship with this beautiful girl for like two years now, I guess, I don't know, we don't talk, but I saw that he has a girlfriend and I'm like, we're all good. But yeah, no, the, the marriage and the divorce situation was crazy for me. And the thing that's crazy for me now is that it's almost like I forget it happened, but there are signs. Basically, I live with my boyfriend now, and the only other time I've lived with A man or a partner was when I was married. So, like, I have a hard time not remembering that my boyfriend and I are married and I'll like, call him my husband in my head. But besides that, like, the, the effects are not anything crazy. It's just like, I'm better at this. Like, I'm a great housewife, I'm a great wife. I'm a great cook. Like, I love doing the housewife things and I'm even better at it.
- [54:30]
A
Now I gotta ask this, okay, Because I. And I won't put anybody's business out, out there, but what you just spoke to kind of goes against everything that I see on Instagram when it comes to, I would say feminism, when it comes to like pro sex work sex positivity. And you just talked about how, yeah, you were divorced and you were in that marriage, but now, like you're accidentally calling your boyfriend your husband now that y'all live together, your great housewife and a great wife. Right. How does this messaging that we see on social media, like, is there any sort of inconsistency of beliefs and behaviors that are making you feel. I guess any imposter syndrome for how you show up on the Internet versus how you are in your day to day life?
- [55:18]
B
That's a good question. I, I think I had more imposter syndrome before this relationship, honestly, because I was like talking about so much fulfillment and like, yay, you can have so much fun having sex with so many people and can be so happy. And I, I was happy, but I was also just like in such a state of chaos that I didn't really know what happiness was. And I felt imposter syndrome then because I'd be like sitting at home lonely, my partner's in another state. I don't want to go. Like, I don't have any fuck buddies on call. And I'm like, am I really happy? Like, this isn't fully it, but. That's the bunny. Can you hear it? Is it really loud?
- [56:04]
A
We don't hear. I don't hear.
- [56:06]
B
Oh, good, good, good. Okay, she's insane. But anyway, no, I feel a lot less imposter syndrome now because I am like very fully myself. And the messaging that we get about feminism or like this trad wife movement, like, it's so stupid. It's. It's kind of the same as non monogamy and monogamy. It's like, oh, we're going to be so extreme and forget that there's good things to be found in the middle. And like, Each side has good points. I am extremely feminist, and I also love doing the cooking. But the thing in my relationship is, like, we love little. Like, we love to say we're very big fans of gender roles, and we are, but, like, we actually do them right. A lot of people have bad associations with gender roles because it's always. Gender roles are pushed on the woman, and then the man gets away scot free. In my last marriage, My last marriage. As if I'm married now.
- [57:03]
A
In my marriage, hey, speak it. Speak it into existence.
- [57:07]
B
No, it's gonna happen, like, literally this year, I think. Don't. I hope you didn't hear that. But anyway, or he'll be dead anyway. In my last marriage, I did all the cooking, I did all the cleaning, I did all the laundry, I did all the grocery shopping. I made as much money or more than my husband, and it was all put into a shared bank account, and he spent a lot more of it than I did. And he never once lifted a finger to do laundry or, like, cleaning the bathroom or any of that stuff. But we were making the same amount of money and sharing it the same way. And I. And I always felt like there was something like, I felt like I was taking care of him in a lot of ways in my relationship now. Like, I don't really pay for anything, which, like, yeah, I do it all, but I don't have to spend money.
- [57:58]
A
Yeah, I feel like we're having the same experience because speaking from the male perspective of that, right. Like, I love when my girlfriend wasn't working for a while and I was like, yo, I like you just being here. You're in your element. You're being creative. Like, she was reorganizing the place, making stuff. I saw her coloring one day. I was like, how do I get her to. How do I make you do more of this? Right? She was cooking new recipes. She's on Tick tock and watching, like, all these, like, these. These things to do and make efficient. And I just love that so much. I kept making her jokes and giving her, like, yo, you should just stop working. And you're a lot happier doing this unless you want to work and you can do these things. But I find myself now even in that role. Like, I can't do this for three girlfriends or multiple relationships. Like, I think that I would be much more absent if I were to. And the. The gender roles thing, because I'll still help with laundry. Like, I don't want to, but I will. I don't like washing dishes, but I know if I make my own, you know, separate mess that isn't ours, like, yeah, like, I need the. Would probably just wash my dishes. Right. And I don't think that anyone should have, like, all of that assumed responsibility. It is a conversation that needs to be had and the expectations to be clear because you were clearly just financially abused and taken care of in that particular situation. And I think that a lot of us may be like, oh, well, you know, and make excuses. No, we. We gotta make excuses. There's people out there who are reasonable. Like you said. I think most people are, you know, reasonable, whether that be you're far conservative, far liberal, far straight, far queer. Right. Like, we think that on these extremes we can't coexist, but the reality is that we are, you know, and when you look to one side or the other and you're in your echo chamber, you forget that we're still people and we're people with needs. We're people who are capable of meeting the needs of. Of one another and co creating community in a way that. That is expanding into a much more cohesive society. I like to think that one way or another, despite how chaotic things are, we're headed in that direction. I got my fingers crossed. But, yeah, it's just very beautiful to hear that one. We've both been in our relationships for over a year, I guess.
- [60:38]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so cool.
- [60:44]
A
Oh, no, you said a year.
- [60:46]
B
Yeah, it froze for a second.
- [60:48]
A
Talks you into freezing. All right, I think that I just lost my guess. Oh, I didn't lose you. Okay.
- [60:59]
B
I'm still here, but it is frozen.
- [61:01]
A
All right, now looking for a stable connection. All right, we can do this. Okay, no, wait, I'm a pause. Okay, so we had a freeze moment that just happened, so we can. We can probably cut out everything that was in the freeze moment. Well, I'm not editing this. Have you said anything that you need edited out?
- [61:26]
B
No. No, no.
- [61:28]
A
Okay, great. All right, so from wherever you recall that you wanted to jump in and say something, what were you gonna say?
- [61:35]
B
Me? Yes. We have been in our relationship for a little over a year. That's so cute that you have, too. I did want to say, like, my boyfriend. Wait, it is cutting out again. Hello? Hello?
- [62:07]
A
Hold on. Okay, we're gonna try and wrap up the podcast before something stupid happens, because this has been so good. Now, Holly, you were about to say, like, we've both been in relationships for a year. I don't know what else you were saying.
- [62:20]
B
I do want to clarify My boyfriend does do housework, so that's that. And we have had so many conversations about, like, the money and the gender roles and all of that. So I liked how you said people are on these extremes and they're in echo chambers, but if you just, like, look at the other side and, like, without judgment, you can just be like, oh, yeah, there's good things there too. So I try. I really do try to do that in my life with whatever it is. But personally, for me, the more gender role, like, housewifey thing, like, that's feminist to me because I'm doing what I want to do and that's feminism. So I just, like, make my own stuff up at this point.
- [63:08]
A
Yeah. Okay, so what we're going to do before some BS happens is I need you to just answer because I said it, so I have to close it out. We were talking about sex work and herpes or sti. Like, what's the low bandwidth?
- [63:25]
B
No, I can still hear you.
- [63:28]
A
Okay, please speak to the herpes in the sex work field and then we're gonna wrap this up.
- [63:34]
B
Yes. So it's really interesting. I came into sex work feeling like, okay, I gotta, like, get tested all the time. And, like, I didn't even realize that there's some things that are super strict in the sex work world and some things that are just so casual. So I learned a lot about, you know, testing and communicating your test results to your other partner and stuff. But I also learned that the viewpoint around some things, like herpes specifically, is just so, like, we don't care. And my first experience with that was I had slept with somebody who had just gotten a positive HSV2 blood test result. They had never had an outbreak. They didn't have an outbreak when we were sleeping together. But, like, the next day I was filming a collab with a porn star. So I reached out to him and I was like, I don't know what to do. This is what happened. I just got this result back from this person and he was like, oh, it's fine, I have herpes too. And I was like, oh, like, you weren't going to tell me that? And he was like, no, we don't tell each other that in the industry. Like, you just assume everybody has it, everybody's on Valtrex. And I was like, oh, okay. Interesting. This is very different. But it actually was so, like, I guess relaxing for me to not have to talk about that with people all the time because they just view it as, like, something that either you have it or you're gonna get it. And at the point where I am now, where I, I don't have HSV2, I'm like, you know, I would prefer to not get it because it would just be one less thing to deal with. But the, like, concern about it, I don't have that. And it was nice to be around people who didn't have that either. So honestly, in the entire, like, it was about, it was like eight months to a year that I was working with other people. We just never talked about it. We showed people pictures of our test results. I had to pay $300 every time I got tested, sometimes every two weeks to get these high end certified tests that test for everything except for herpes. You know, we were doing like M Gen and Trick and all of these things, but herpes was just not something that people cared about. And I genuinely don't know the status of most of the people that I had sex on camera with, but it doesn't bother me because I know that, like, if they did have herpes, they knew about it and they were on Valtrex for it. So that was just kind of the mindset and it, it made me feel very, like, safe to just not worry about something. I will say that now I kind of wish there had been a little more conversation with some people, but I came out on unaffected, so it all worked out basically.
- [66:21]
A
Oh yeah. And when you say you came out unaffected, like, are we talking about, like, I guess the transition from being a sex worker having sex on camera to now? Like, not that I think we see. I think Mia Khalifa and Riley Reed are the most recent examples of, like, former adult film stars who have gone on to be married and have children. Like, do you have any concerns about, like, stuff that's out there popping up later or anything like that?
- [66:57]
B
I don't have concerns. The way I think of it is like, if something were to come up on a future test, because I'm still going to get tested even though it's not as regularly. If something.
- [67:07]
A
Wait, wait, wait. I mean, testing wise, I meant like the work you've done, like the sex work.
- [67:12]
B
Oh, the sex work. No, it's out there. It's out there. I cannot get some of it taken down. Some. Like, I try to keep my stuff to the sites where I upload, but I worked with somebody really big and, and his stuff is just. I worked with Johnny Sins and so, like, his stuff is everywhere and somebody took one of the scenes that we did and put it on like every pirated tube site. You can think of. And I've, like, used software to try and take down pirated stuff, but at this point, there's just stuff that I will never get removed. And I knew that that was a possibility going into it. It was definitely a little different to have it actually happen. But I, like, that's part of what you sign up for when you do sex work, and I was aware of that. So for me, that doesn't affect me. It doesn't affect my relationship. I. I really don't think it's a big deal at all. Well, yeah, when I say unaffected, I mean, like, physically. I've definitely had emotional effects from doing sex work. And that is a conversation for another time. But, yeah, I'm good.
- [68:17]
A
All right, awesome. Well, Holly, if you want people to connect with you, if they resonated with this episode and want to, like, follow you on social media or anything, see what you got going on, how can people find you?
- [68:29]
B
Yes, my Instagram is Holly Estrada. Holly with three Y's. H, O, L, L, Y, Y, Y, E, S, T, R, A, D, A. And that's where I'm the most active, honestly. I, like, do a lot of group things in my stories, and my posts are pretty like. Like introspective, but that is where I like to connect.
- [68:50]
A
Amazing. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you coming on and sharing your experience. And yeah, like, I've been following you. I've been seeing the bunny. The bunny has been, like, taking over the. Like, I watch all of the bunny videos. You know, you scroll through. You just skip through when it's too wordy or whatever. Whenever I see the bunny, I'm like, what's good bunny gonna do? Like, what's it. What's about that? I'm, like, sucked in. Yeah. But, yeah, thank you for the transparency. If you can just stick around for a little bit. I know I said 75 minutes and we're at that point, but I'm gonna close out the episode and then just chat with you and check in and see how this was for you. All right?
- [69:28]
B
Yes, absolutely.
- [69:30]
A
Okay. That concludes this episode of Something Positive for positive people. Please, like, rate, review, share, subscribe to and you can now comment on the podcast episodes, especially if you use Spotify. Follow me on. Well, actually, don't follow me. You should just subscribe to the newsletter because Instagram been playing and I find that the newsletter is just a better way of getting the things out there. So what I would normally post to social media. I'm putting on the newsletter. We have our HSV survey for 2025, the May 22nd herpes conference. We have yoga therapy, yoga classes. All of this stuff is online@spfpp.org we're offering the one on one donation based support calls as well as the Something Positive for Positive People Expo, which today I'm about to go look at a venue for in Newark. So we'll have our next in person Something Positive Expo here hopefully in the spring. And there's going to be some presentations and traveling that happens next. I want to shout out everyone who has supported us, especially since day one. If you're new here, thanks for being here. Please share this with somebody, the resources and if you want to get involved with the conversation, especially as we transition into more relationship type topics. I think it's just a natural evolution of not just the podcast and the organization, but also myself as someone who's now in a monogamous relationship after having talked all this non monogamous monogamy for so long. Like it's only right to incorporate that aspect of my vulnerability into the work that I do. So I want to thank Holly for being here and being part of this conversation. Shout out to you, shout out to your boyfriend and shout out to all the experiences that you had that brought you to this point of being able to speak so freely and from a place of security and healing about what your life has done for you and brought you to being who you are today. All right, so that's it. Check me out on all podcast hosting platforms and again, subscribe to the newsletter spfpp.
- [71:37]
B
Org.