B (2:06)

You know, since we're talking about Sigma, and that's what you kind of made me think about. Like, there's this artist, his name is Marlon Hall. He's in Houston. Shout out to Marlon. And they do just are about to complete a project that was kind of supposed to be highlighting and showcasing the stories of Individuals who are homeless, houseless, displaced, but you know, have housing now and just kind of highlighting that story. But there's a lot of stigma against people who are houseless and homeless. And there's a lot of like the belief that oh, they want to be, they want to be homeless, they want to be houseless, they want to, they don't want to, they don't want help, they want to live on the street. And, and that may be like some people's story, but I don't think that's everyone's story.

A (2:49)

I don't think so either. And I will say I saw, and this is objectively what I saw when I visited Portland one time, a friend and I, we parked outside this restaurant, we watched this dude get up, get out of his tent, go into his bins and like I guess get something and then go back into his tent. And the cost of living, I guess has increased so much in Portland, Oregon and the weather's like nice year round that you kind of can just live out of your car and just set up a tent anywhere, basically. So stigma wise. I don't know that I believe that he was someone, I don't know this, I don't know his story. But I did when I saw that, make the assumption that, damn, maybe like people come here and maybe make that choice of, oh, I can just live here in the tent. But when I saw the car, I was like, okay, maybe it wasn't his. We, I don't know. I don't know. There's a lot of assumptions that can be made.

B (3:48)

Hawaii has the highest homelessness rate in the entire United States.

A (3:53)

Is it because of just how nice it is consistently?

B (3:55)

I don't think so. I think that anywhere. Oh, sorry to say this comment. You can probably take this out, I.

A (4:01)

Think, I don't edit.

B (4:03)

I think that anywhere that there is a military base that there's always going to be high homelessness because there aren't a lot of resources available to vets. And a lot of times people get out, they, if they're dealing with things, they don't have the money or capacity to be able to go home. Especially in places like Hawaii. Like you have to make a plan to leave there. Like you can't just be in Hawaii and go, I'm gonna leave tomorrow. Like, no, you're making a plan to be gone for, to get on that eight hour flight or that five hour flight if you're going to California, eight hour flight if you're going to mainland somewhere else. Like you, you, you making A decision to leave and to be gone. And so, I mean, I don't know, I just, I feel, I find that to be really interesting, but. Oh, people listening. I don't know. I lived in Hawaii for like three and a half years, went to school there and got to learn a lot about people culture and. But also a lot about the stigma and being homeless and houseless and how that plays a role in people's immediate lives. So it's just interesting. I don't know. Been because you're displaced now. Yeah, it's nice. I mean, it's not nice, but it's interesting to like have that kind of conversation about like, oh, how does stigma fit into that?

A (5:15)

Well, and this is another thing too, is that I'm, I have renters insurance, so theoretically I should get a check that allows for me to have like a smooth transition, but like it's rocky now. But it's very fortunate that I have people around me that care about me, that support me, love me. And I've been very much showered in support from the people around me, my friends. I haven't heard much from my close family. Now that I think about this. Damn. You know what I realized too? I've been home for two months and I can count on one hand the number of times I see my mom. Whereas like when I'm gone, I'll see her more when I come visit. I was like, you real comfortable, ain't you?

B (5:59)

But you also grown.

A (6:00)

That is true.

B (6:01)

Like you as a parent, I think you raise your kids, he's like, all right, they out cool. Like you're self sustainable. You've shown that you can be that I don't have to worry about you. So why am I really.

A (6:10)

Yeah.

B (6:11)

Hitting you up that much? And then your mom got on life to live. She had to raise you. You know, she ain't. Your mom isn't old, she young. So she trying to live her young life.

A (6:20)

My mom's 55 for those one of it. But yeah. So in Black years, you're 25, right. Talking about. She went on, what was that yesterday? She's like, yeah, I had a date last night. I was like, oh. She said, he ain't got no. And I thought she was gonna say te, but she said kids. I was like, oh, all right, okay.

B (6:39)

I'm mad that that's what you thought.

A (6:42)

Cuz that was a thing that happened before we had a conversation about that. But yeah, going back to the stigma component, when we were talking earlier, one of the things that you had mentioned was like how someone who has a lot of money deals with the herpes diagnosis versus how someone who doesn't have a lot of money deals with a herpes diagnosis. And I was thinking about that for myself and the interviews that I've done with people. I don't really ask people about their economic status we have on the survey, but the people that I speak with, you kind of have an idea. Idea of what maybe their income could be, but not like the output of it. So I wonder if there's even like a difference between how much money a person makes versus how they use their money and what impact herpes stigmas may have. Because you said, you know, someone who makes a lot who was struggling with suicide ideation right when they were diagnosed.

B (7:36)

Yeah. So socioeconomic status includes, like, your income, education level, your housing, if you have insurance, a number of things. And we were just. We were just talking and I was like, you know, it's interesting that even when it comes to HIV as well, like, individuals who have more money tend to have, you know, access to more resources and so. And to a certain level of support. Because you said support as well. And we'll get into that a little bit later, because I want to talk about that. But like, when you are more knowledgeable, you have more resources, access to those resources. The way you deal with stigma, the way you deal with having a herpes or HSV diagnosis or HIV diagnosis and getting medication and having resources like having a therapist to go to talk to, to deal to get the tools to be able to cope and move through diagnosis. Like you have that. But when you don't, I think you're a little bit more. And it depends on who you are. Right. You may be a little bit more vigilant when you have a lower income or maybe you're not as knowledgeable. The way you seek resources is even different. Right. Because you're. You may go online and find something positive for positive people, site and read and listen to the podcast, and then now you have access to knowledge and you may go that route. But I think that there is a difference when you are at a certain socioeconomic level versus when you're not or at a lower level, how you utilize resources, the resources that you actually look for. Four, you know, and to me, it's opposite. When you have a higher socioeconomic status with an HSV diagnosis, I think they take it a lot harder than someone who doesn't versus with hiv, it may be easier because you have money to pay for an insurance, to get medication and things like that, so it was just something I, something that I tend to think about when it comes to stay stigma as well. Because it's like, okay, when you are dealing with stigma and there's many different types, we're only going to talk about stigma when it comes to HSP in the context of this conversation. But like, you may seek certain resources, right? I may be like, okay, I'm going to read about it. I may go to journals articles and read academic journal articles and see what's out there. And then I may see. Seek out organizations and then try to find someone to talk to about that. And then I may go, oh, there's medication, but what does the medication do? Am I someone that's having active symptoms? And if I do, how often am I having him? And you know, do I have. Am I also having. Do I have active sexual partner that I want to keep having sex with? Do they care that I have HSV or not? You know, like all those things come into play. But I think social, social support also plays a role in how stigma affects you mentally in your life as well.

A (10:25)

So I want to say an observation that I think is consistent is that people who have more income maybe have less of that community support, whereas people who have lower income might have more community support. And the risk, right, like when people reach out to me and talk to me about their diagnosis, I'm very low risk because, like, I'm out there, I have it, I talk about it. And so there's also this kind of, like, perception of being known. Like, people know me a lot more than I know them, obviously. But if I were to be someone who perpetuated stigma to them, which is very unlikely, but if I were to say the worst thing that anyone could say to them, people could just be like, oh, that guy, he's an. But then if they were to go to anyone who knows them, a friend, and tell them the same exact thing that they would tell me, they run the risk of experiencing not just rejection, but also invalidation of their identity, right? So if you go to a friend, someone that you've called friend for years, and you tell them about this, and if they look at you differently, that's going to carry significantly more weight than if I were to invalidate one's identity. So I look at that and I'm just like, okay, so when we think about socioeconomic status and is it that because a person with more money may more so identify with their money than their sexuality, whereas someone who has less money may be more identified with what they have that carries weight aside from their money. So their relationships, their ability to have relationships being the bridge to access to resources and community.

B (12:15)

I, I guess I have to disagree because I feel like now we're talking about status, not necessarily income level.

A (12:24)

Oh, say more.

B (12:25)

You know what I'm saying? Like, when we talk about status, we're thinking of like, not only your income, do you make it. You can make a high income and still have a low, like social status, if that makes sense. Like I can make six figures but not really be known in my field, because I am just in the field where you make a lot of money, but not in the field where I have a lot of in person interaction with people. Right. I know people who have, who work online are virtual work in the virtual space basically because they do it. But they never met a coworker. They never, you know, so somebody know found out something. What would it matter? They don't know me. They're never gonna really have access to this information about me. But if we're talking about friendships and things like that, I think we're talking about something like your support system at that point. And then I would call in the question, who are your friends? And are they really your friends? Are you, are they. Do you have frenemies that are just there, like when you're gonna disclose? So they're gonna disclose to somebody who you're really close to, who you do consider a friend or I would think I wouldn't do it to someone who I know is talking crap about me, you know, or is in some secret competition with me. I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that. I mean, but that's just me. I can obviously can't speak for everybody else, so I wouldn't necessarily say it's income like that. And just because you make more money doesn't mean that what you value also changes to an extent. You know, you, yeah, you may like nicer things or whatever, but that doesn't mean that if you don't have money that you don't like nice things as well. I think that we kind of put a little too much emphasis when it comes to income and what that means for somebody or what that means for their identity because they're at a certain level of income. When we intersect that with like disclosing an STI status, no matter what it is, I don't think that that really plays as deep a role as you think it does. I think that really it matters, like the quality of your friendships that you have. Right. Like, I'm not gonna. This close to my friend that I know is super judgmental. They're not gonna be able to have any type of understanding towards me because they're judgmental. So they're gonna judge me immediately. Oh, my God. You have this, like. And then they're ignorant as well, you know, so I'm only. You're judging me. You're also ignorant to what an HSV diagnosis is, what HSV is, what the symptoms actually are, versus, like, when you Google, you see the most extreme case, and it's like. But everybody not having that extreme case. And most people, if they have oral hsv, they're not actively showing signs of that. So in your. You know, in people's minds, they really have these weird. A very weird, to me, understanding of what HSV is and how it presents sense versus other things. So, like I was saying, like, I think it really comes to the quality of your friendships and who you're talking to when you do disclose. If you go to someone who's actually your friend and their figure, they're gonna say, oh, my gosh, thanks for telling me. How can I support you? Like, what do you need?

A (15:16)

Gratitude and curiosity and that's it.

B (15:18)

Like, if anything more than that would let me be like, oh, my gosh. Like, we're actually. Or maybe I thought we were friends, but we're really not. Like, we're just two people. That's cool. And we like to hang out, but we're really not friends.

A (15:29)

Yeah.

B (15:30)

You know, so I would. You know, that's just my opinion about it, I think.

A (15:36)

As I learn more about stigma, I'm reading Irving Goffman's book Stigma Notes on Spoiled Identity. And his definition of stigma is an attribute that makes a person less whole by society's standards. And the way that that's been demonstrated in my work with something positive for positive people is really that stigma fragments a person's sense of self and their identity across, like, various existences, Right. So the wholeness is not like you're less of a person. It's more that your presence is dispersed into different areas. Because we think about it from a herpes standpoint, just because that's. Most people here, it's okay. My sexual identity is impacted. My familial relationships are impacted. And I can use myself as an example because when I was diagnosed, right? Like, the only people who needed to know were the people that were there at the time, my mom and my grandmother, and then the people that I had most recently had sex with that I reached out to to just make sure that I didn't give it to them.

B (16:43)

Why did you think that your mom and grandmother needed to know?

A (16:47)

The reason they needed to know was because I screamed in the bathroom, what the fuck? When I reached down and touched my penis. The day I had my first outbreak. My grandmother happens to be a nurse and she was like, she told, like, my mom was on her way over. I was like, we need to go to urgent care. This was going on. So I don't know, I wonder how things might have looked if maybe they weren't there or if I did live on my own, if I would have even told them or if I would have just kept it to myself. It's real interesting to think about now in hindsight, because that was 12 years, two months ago.

B (17:17)

I think it would be interesting if you were more knowledgeable about it, what your reaction would have been.

A (17:22)

I think that if I were more knowledgeable about it, my reaction would have been, I can't. Like, it would have been the same. I think even if I knew about herpes, it would have been the same thing. Because then I know there's no way to know whether or not you're going to pass it on. I don't know how many outbreaks I'm going to get, right? But looking at the statistics and information that I've been able to get now through something positive for positive people and people taking the surveys, I've been able to give other people more peace to know, okay, frequency and intensity of outbreaks over time goes down. And knowing this, I think, helps people with their own internalized stigma because it may go over, my God, I'm going to have this happen to me. I need to eat this way. I need to exercise, I need to do these things. And the reality is that everybody is different. And it just so happens that I believe that I hear from people who are experiencing the worst of the worst of it, because they're looking for things, they're looking for resources and support. And a lot of times going to the doctor, we don't know what we need. Like, yeah, we get the medication, we get the statistics. But like, is it like, how am I supposed to tell people about this?

B (18:31)

How to. Am I supposed.

A (18:31)

How am I supposed to live my life, right? Like, what, what needs to happen different and then what people do is because their identity is like fragmented in all of these different areas. There becomes like an over identification with maybe this idea of perfectionism. Because now I gotta be so good at what I do. I gotta be perfect in all These other areas so that this small piece of me doesn't carry as much significance. And that's a whole, that's a whole psychological thing there too.

B (19:04)

Yeah, I think. Well, I agree, but I also think that a lot of. I don't know if it's true or not. I can't speak for everybody. The people that I've talked to just felt like they were doing everything perfect before the diagnosis. Like I was getting tested, I was doing this, I was doing that and I was. They were getting tested. And then the difference was like, oh, but they weren't getting before a full panel. Oh, but I wasn't getting a full panel. Like I wasn't including hsv, like, oh, like now what? But I was still getting tested, I was still using condoms, I was still doing all the things. And I'm like, I mean, yeah, there is no hundred percent anything. I guess we talked about not using prevent and protect but minimize. Because when you say minimize, it's like you now understand that there's still a small chance, albeit if it's 2%, 1%, whatever, that this could be a reality for you. And so, but that's for anybody. Like even if you're negative right now and you have multiple sexual partners and you don't know if they're getting tested and you know, like, there's nothing wrong with having multiple sexual partners. Let me say that. Like, you know, but whatever safety is for you, you need to be doing that for yourself. But I think, I don't know, when you, when you get the diagnosis, it's one thing. And then having to figure out a way forward for yourself is something else too. And navigating that is just difficult.

A (20:28)

Yeah. And I also wonder too, this just made me, what you were saying made me think about this. A person who maybe has less access to the, the quote, best resources, like a therapist being able to reach out to a virologist. Right. Or talk to having the best access to the best medication, whatever. They still don't get what they need. And someone who's like, doesn't have that can get really creative.

B (20:56)

Yes.

A (20:57)

In how they look for information.

B (20:59)

Yes.

A (20:59)

And maybe still doesn't find what they need. And I like to think that what something positive for positive people has become, you know, for people with herpes, for as it's developing more resources for people now navigating identity stigma. I'd like to think that what it is is just like a, an all expansive resource that speaks to the person who makes a lot of money and can more so direct Them to the resources that they need or who makes no money or is a college student or, you know, someone who's from maybe a non primary English speaking family. Like, I think that those are the people who. There's a function on the website now where you can put it in Spanish, but I, I don't speak Spanish or like other languages to be able to make the podcast as useful as it can be. So I try and do my best with just like organizing the information and having a diverse range of conversations and guests on, to be able to share these experiences that people can like hear and see themselves in and sort of find their own way back to wholeness from being fragmented into someone who fears rejection, someone who fears disclosing, someone who thinks that their sex life is over, who thinks they'll never have a relationship or won't be able to have kids.

B (22:23)

Now, which is very untrue.

A (22:26)

Very.

B (22:27)

And you gotta really work hard not to believe the lie. Especially when, if you're someone who already believed other lies, like, I'm never gonna be what, you know, I'm not gonna get this degree, or I'm never gonna make my dream into a goal and then reach that goal. Like, if you've already believed those type of lies, I think it's very hard for you to also, if you get a diagnosis, to believe, like, oh my gosh, like, someone's gonna love me someday. Like, I can still have kids. I can. Yes, you can still do all those things. But now that comes with knowledge.

A (22:56)

And it's such a surprise because we don't think about this before whatever stigma enters our range of perspective, right? Like, I look at, I talk about, I was at a. Someone who's queer, his birthday party, and I was at this art studio. And I think I might have been the only straight person there. And I was there and I was like, yo, everybody here just wants to like, blow bubbles, listen to music. There's a dj, I want to eat cake and, and just fucking draw and color. And that's all that they wanted to do. I was like, yo, why, why do people, why are people so threatened by the existence of these kinds of spaces and the kinds of people who are in these spaces? And someone made a comment, they were like, yeah, nobody's straight. And I was sitting there, I was like, oh, if they find me out, like, am I gonna get thrown out of here or what? But it's, it's, it's just thinking about identity and stigma. Like, what happened for me in that moment was, oh, if I'm found out, like, will I no longer belong? Because I like this place. I like just being able to come here. I just sat down and I drew what was in front of me. I don't draw, but it was just so nice to be in that. That field of energy where it's just creative, it's just creation happening. People had people just drawing and interacting with each other. I learned this, like, marbles game. I forgot what it was called, but I played like a game game. And this was just such a cool thing. And me as a straight person, I wouldn't know that that's what happened in these spaces had I not engaged with or been welcomed into or immersed myself into it. And I think that this is very synonymous for what happens with stigma. We don't really know until we engage with the thing or the population or the identities of the people that themselves are stigmatized. To see that it's not actually that these people are fragmented. It's that maybe they are more certain about who they are and their identities, and they're just living in a way that's so foreign to us because we're not practiced in living in our own reality or identity.

B (25:00)

I agree. And I think that society as a whole does they other you. Other. So othering is when it's like, what's a good example? Like, yeah, therapy would be very good for. For people to have that are dealing with a lot of mental health issues. Yeah. But that's for them. That's for those people who are dealing with that. Those feel people who are, you know, not. That's for that guy who's not talking to his mom right now. That's for them. Them, those. They. All those other people. But no one includes themselves in that particular bubble. Right. And I find that to be very interesting. I learned that. I learned that volunteering at a hospital or interning at a hospital and being like, oh, there's so much othering going on up in here. Like, it's always someone else. It's like this. And I'm like, oh, that's like when people who. All those people who are always like, oh, yeah, when they talk about themselves, I'm a great communicator. This is how I am. And blah, blah, blah. And I'm always like, no, you're not. No one who's a good communicator needs to tell someone that they're a good communicator, you know? And so it's like a. It's. It's one of two. It's one of two things when I'm going to other or one, I'm going to try to convince you that I'm something that I'm not because I want to be this thing, or I falsely believe that I'm this thing, even though people know that I'm not. You know, so it's like one of those two things, especially when it comes to stigma and, like, meeting people and having friends and discovery different walks of life, even having friends who are living with HIV or HSV and are comfortable within their skin and within that, like, people get so threatened by it and get upset, like, oh, why are you. That person's like this. Oh, they got this. It's like no one actively wants to give themselves an sti. Like, no one's out here being like, oh, you got it. Let's. Let's get it together. Let's go. You're gonna give it Great. Like, no one's doing that. But in people's minds who are, you know, ignorant to the information, they really think like, oh, that's because you out here. I remember I had this girl, we were talking, and she was like, oh, people with herpes are nasty. And I was like, what? And she was like, yeah, like, they was out there being nasty. And I was like, what does that mean?

A (27:06)

I'm so glad you just asked.

B (27:08)

They're being nasty. And she's like, yeah, they were, you know, they out here just probably having raw sex and doing this. And I was like, huh, this is interesting. So I kept asking more questions because I. I'm like, I want to know how deep the ignorance really goes. And it went quite deep because she didn't understand that most people who have HSV diagnosis actually don't have symptoms. And if they do, they're having, like, once or twice a year. And it depends on the person and their lifestyle. Some people don't know that they're doing things to keep themselves from having symptoms because that's just their lifestyle. And so they're like, okay. Like, there's so many things that go into it it that it baffles me that people have these deep, like, ingrained stereotypes and stigma around sti, but they're also ignorant to it. Like, you've met. I don't care who you are, you met someone in your life who's had some STI at some point in their life. They've had Chl, gonorrhea, syphilis, hpv, hsv, hiv. Like, have or have had, like, sometime in your life. No one's obviously screaming from the rooftops. Like, I have chlamydia. Like, no one's doing that. A lot of people who have STI they can get rid of are not telling their sexual partners that they've had it because they're like, well, they'll get rid of it when they find out. They'll be able to take a pill or whatever, and, and they'll be fine. But that's not, you know, even if you have something you can get rid of, I think the stigma and even the internalized stigma that you feel towards yourself, yourself is still something that you have to deal with, even if it's not an STI that you have to live with. Anyway, that's my rant for the day.

A (28:44)

And what do you think about doxy pep, Doxy prep? The medications that you can take when you think you've been exposed or like, you can take it before a sexual encounter? Do you think that more people are like, the, the risk tolerance has gone significantly up? Like, I'm, oh, I can just. I took this medication. So now I'm more likely to engage in sex without condoms.

B (29:13)

When we talk about medication that's specifically for one sti, which is hiv, I think we have to be a little bit careful. And I think there's also this, I don't know, preconceived notion that by taking this, it's going to increase people's vulnerability to acquiring other STIs because they're not willing. They're now not willing to use a condom because they're taking this. And that's actually not true. There are a number of studies specifically with men who have sick men and gay male couples that have shown that they're like, nah, I like, I'm still using condoms, or I still make sure they revoke tested if you don't want to use condoms. Or like, I'm glad I have this because it just makes me feel more comfortable having sex knowing that if I do get an sti, it won't be hiv. Which kind of sounds bad that I'm hearing myself say it out loud, but I don't think that there's an increase in, I don't know, I don't like the word risk in these outcome vulnerability, these sexual behaviors that may increase your vulnerability to acquiring certain STIs. A long way to say it, but, like, I don't think that's what it does, and I think that's individual specific. But that's also what's going on as a societal norm within that particular community. Right. Like, and I have a Number of gay male friends. And if you talk to half of them, they'll be like, we don't use condoms. We out here. And I'm like, okay. And they're younger. I ask my other half of my gay male friends who are older, and they're like, nah, wait. Like, I. Like, we may be open or we may be monogamous, but I'm, you know, I'm not really out here like that. And we use condoms. I use this because I let. I allow him to have sex with other people, but I don't really want to, so. And it just. It just depends on what? What's the norms with your relationship? What's the societal norms within that community? I don't think that PEP or prep it will force, not for us, but will inadvertently have people engaging in more sexually risky behaviors. Like, I just. Just don't think that's the case. I've read that that's not the case. I just think that that's, like, what people believe will happen. Right? Like, oh, if you introduce a pill that protects against birth control and hiv, that women are going to just start having sex with all condoms and you're going to have an increase in chlamydia. And I'm like, but you don't know that. That's just an assumption you're making.

A (31:36)

Yeah.

B (31:36)

Where this assumption is coming from stereotypes and stigma. But is that actually true? What has been proven to be true is that Texas doesn't have sex education in schools and there has been an increase in pregnancies with women under 16.

A (31:50)

Yeah.

B (31:51)

But if you ask anybody else, like, there's no correlation there. I'm like, sure, do whatever you say. Like, family. Families aren't really having conversations with their kids about sex anyway. So that's kind of like a strike against us as a society. Because it's like, no one's talking about sex. No one's telling men how to properly put on a condom. No one's telling them that no matter who you are, you can get an STI regardless of your sexual orientation or your. Or any. Or any of that or sexual identity. Which is very interesting to me that some people even today still think like, oh, well, well, I'm not gay. I can't get that. And I'm like, what are you saying right now? That is a. I've had to call people out and say, don't say that no more. Because you sound ignorant. Like, you sound like, just don't. You. Don't say that. Like, you know that's incorrect. Don't say that.

A (32:41)

But yeah, yeah. So just to answer the question, there is no increase of risk tolerance as a result of these new medications that prevent the. And I say prevent because this is the language that they're using and prevent the transmission of like HIV. If we're talking about PrEP, PEP and then the pre exposure, what is it? The doxy pep. Doxy prep. I mix up the names but I.

B (33:11)

Know there's pre exposure prophylaxis that you can see if you. There's two. There's not two. If you, you take it. PEP is what you take. If you believe you've been exposed to HIV, you have to take it within 72 hours. The longer it takes you to take it, the less effective it is. PREP is something you can take daily. It increases your chances of acquiring HIV by over 90% through sexual intercourse as well as injection drug use. Injection drug use does have a. I believe a lower percentage. I think it's like, I think, I want to say it's like maybe a little over 70% but still higher than 50 is pretty darn good to me. And there's also 211 where it's a. I believe it's prep and you take it like twice it like twice on Monday, once on Tuesday, once on Wednesday. And that's if you want to take it for short term term. I haven't read the studies on 211 because 211 hasn't been approved for women to take. And I'm all about women's sexual health and so I'm kind of annoyed by that. So I haven't read any of the papers when it comes to men on 21 1. But from the papers that I've read so far, there is no. People are engaging in higher risk activities. No, but that doesn't mean that. And it's early on. These studies are new. Like Prep has been around since 2012 and you know, women still aren't actively using it for various reasons. And you should be able to get PREP if you go to your doctor and ask for it. Regardless if you are engaging in risky activities or not. Just because you ask for it, you buy. According to a. World Health Organization, according to cdc, you should be able to just go in, ask for and get it. That's it. The requirement is the, the, the requirement is because you asked for it. But that's not what's happening.

A (35:15)

Yeah.

B (35:16)

Anyway, answering question is yes and no. Right.

A (35:18)

Okay.

B (35:18)

The studies that have come out say no, but these are, these are new studies that are being done. I don't but if you're going to say it broadly, I would say no, but also re. Re restructuring how we assess risk anyway, because if you have someone who has multiple sexual partners, all the sexual partners are getting tested and y' all show your test before you have sex. Anyway, where is the risk? I'm struggling. I know you can't. I hope you can feel the shrug through the podcast. I'm shrugging like, where, where, where is the risk? Like, are we. Why are we not being more Sex positive and 64 when we talk about risk or vulnerability anyway? And we're just as a society, not there yet. In the current political climate, we've been pushed back to the 1920s. So it, you know, it's going to take a while to get back there again. But I don't know, I guess at the end of the day, people aren't going anywhere, you know, unfortunately, stigma. Not going nowhere. Because to decrease stigma, you really have to increase knowledge and understanding of STI and, and that just that, like, what symptoms are and how you can get it and all of that in order to decrease stigma. And just having conversations like this and talking to people who are actively dealing with it and telling their stories to just bring awareness so people. Can one be aware of what they're doing to perpetuate stigma? Maybe knowingly or unknowingly? Mostly unknowingly, because I think we unknowingly say a lot of things that are hurtful and we don't know that we're doing it. But then it takes people to also call them out and say, hey, you know, like what you just said wasn't okay. Like, like when I told the girl, like, you know, actually they're not nasty. No one's waking up in, in the day and saying, all right, gonna go out here and just, you know, be nasty, gonna be risky. Gonna just put myself at risk. Like, no one's doing that. Like, I don't know. I.

A (37:14)

That.

B (37:15)

That sits rent free in my mind. And I always check myself if I feel like, as you have experienced by being here with me, if I say something, I'm like, oh, I didn't mean to say that. My bad. Like, I thought about how you could have taken that and that's not how I wanted you to take it.

A (37:31)

So, yeah, I don't know.

B (37:32)

It's self awareness, I guess, is what people need step on.

A (37:37)

Yeah, that's like a, That's a big key. And I think again, stigma fragmenting our presence into so many different directions, like, it makes us very disconnected. From who we are. And that's why I encourage people to talk to people that know you and get that reminder of who you were prior to your inkling of possibly having whatever it is the condition is or whatever existence it is. Because there's even just stigma with what is it like being on the spectrum, right? Like, we were talking a little bit about autism and being neurodivergent and all of the. The ways that being outside of whatever the mainstream norm is and how effective existing as not that can be in disrupting the harmful structures that exist, right? Like, the more self aware people I know who do things on their own and don't just like, I look at going out drinking at the bar, like, nothing's wrong with this. But the people who ask, what am I doing this for? Like, what do I really want? Ultimately come to find out that they just like, want to be around people that they like or they want to just like, create some stuff. And there's a disconnect between engaging and consumers consumerism feeding capitalism that allows for the world to continue to exist in the way that it does. And a lot of this really is just a matter of you can use your herpes diagnosis, you can use your stigma as an entry point to connecting to your core identity, and you make decisions from there and you see the world around you begin to respond to that rather than being someone who's reactive to what's happening around you, in the world around you. That's one thing I noticed about you, like, coming to hang out or being here for as long as I have. Like, you are you, you, you are who you are. And like, that is consistent, whether it be podcast recording, talking about anime, going to the pool, eating, whatever.

B (39:44)

Thanks. I'm probably gonna switch gears by saying this, but it took a long time to get here. Like, I was someone who was bullied in middle school, early high school, and one day I woke up and was like, why am I letting people talk to me like this? Why am I letting people make me feel like me being me is weird and me being me is like, not okay, and me being goofy is an issue. And I started being like, you know what? Imma just be me. I don't care. I don't want to be like everybody else. I don't. It feels so boring to be like everybody else is. It feels boring to like, want to dress like everybody else and talk like everybody else and why am I trying so hard to conform and be like everybody else? I'm gonna be me. And that alone, having that Self awareness of, like, how you are and being unapologetically and authentically you like. It makes life so much easier. Drink your water, mind your business. It makes life easy. Easy. Like, yeah, we deal with life things. Things, but it makes it easy. And it makes it easy for you to talk to people about stigma talks. It makes it easy people to be able to disclose their STI status to you because they know that you're going to be like, okay, cool. I had a friend take me to dinner to tell me that he had he has hiv. And I'm thinking, he about to tell me, is he dying from cancer? I'm thinking the words, right? And. Oh, you guys don't know. I am a social behavioral science, but I'm a social and behavioral research scientist. My focus is HIV prevention and women's sexual health. So I'm very ingrained in trying to make sure I'm always staying knowledgeable while information continues to change. This is so loud.

A (41:26)

Oh, no, we good. Because the mics drown that out.

B (41:28)

Oh, they can't hear it. So I just go crazy. Got it. So he calls me to dinner. We sit down, and he's like, you know, we're having regular conversation. I'm like, okay, stop. What's up? We need to tell me because I'm someone. Once you say you got to talk, I need to know immediately when we get there and sit down. You can't make me wait to the end of dinner because I don't have that kind of capacity. My. My. I'm. I'm a very deep thinker, and so I'm someone that's going to ask you if I have a question, because I would rather do that than fixate on the thought. And I need you to tell me when you got to tell me something, because if not, I'm going to go crazy. And so he tells me, and I'm like. So I grab his hand because he's very serious. I'm like, thank you for turning me. And then I was like, was that it? He said, what? I said, you got me here thinking you about to tell me you dying. It's just this. Oh, let's order some food. He was like, wait, what? And I was like, this ain't no big deal. I don't care. And he was like, really? And I was like, am I? And then I got quiet, and I thought about it, and I was like, I hope that me. My response isn't devaluing you disclosing and telling me this. And I was like, but at the same time, like, what did you think my reaction was be. And what, what have other people's reactions been when you disclosed? And they were really negative and I felt really bad and I was like, well, I get that. And I was like, but those people aren't your friends. Like, those people aren't here for you. I was like, support is very big. It's going to be very big for you moving forward. And you'll have me, you have my support.

A (42:50)

Like, gratitude, curiosity, it is really what.

B (42:53)

It comes down to. I mean, I was already knowledgeable, so I didn't really need the information. But I think he thought I was going to judge him because I'm so ingrained in the field that he's like, oh, she knows a lot. Like, she's going to be this. I'm like, what do you mean? I don't know. But what, what can I say to you? Yeah, like you're living, you're living this life. Mind you, he like married, kids now, but still like, yeah, I get that the beginning stages can be hard. So it's like that. So one that's self awareness, you know, providing support and being knowledgeable. But you got to be someone who's self seeking that knowledge. You can't expect everyone to give you, to give you the information and then not seek it out yourself. Like not seek out the truth for yourself. Yeah, because then you'll always be just a little bit ignorant. You don't want to always be a little bit ignorant.

A (43:44)

You went into a little bit of personal stuff. Are you always open to expanding a little bit more? I'm curious about your experience. So stigma identity. Right. You are an educated black woman who's doing well for herself and you're nerdy. Right. So are there any particular, like stigmas or assumptions on you or any, anything in your existence that like, is challenging for you to face right now?

B (44:11)

Yeah. So I'm actually expert, expanding my program of research to include stigma more specifically, but also stereotypes. And as a black woman, we deal with a lot of stereotypes and it's annoying and it's perpetuated unfortunately to an extent by black men. It's like, that's something that's very annoying, that's kind of hard to deal with, especially as someone who doesn't only date black men. So that can be a little, a little difficult. But I guess because I am who I am and I don't know, I try to walk in purpose and, and in self that I call you out on it to your face and correct you and provide information. So that way, at least you're leaving me a little bit more knowledgeable than you came. But it's hard to deal with. I think anybody can definitely say that it's hard to deal with stigma or even. Or any stereotypes about you that aren't true. And I remember having someone say, well, are all stereotypes bad? And I was like, yeah, they are. Like, I know the assumptions. Yeah. Even black men is like, oh, like, all black men have huge penises. It's like, first of all, they don't. Sorry to bust bubbles if you're listening. But it's also maybe hard for black men who don't and to have a woman be like, oh, he ain't packing. Like, what?

A (45:30)

Huh?

B (45:31)

Like, that must be hard to be a black one without a big butt. Like, wow, that. It must be hard for, you know, or have someone to tell you, like, oh, you're an Oreo. Like, I'm an Oreo. What do you mean? Oh, you black, but you don't act black. However, I've had a professor tell me to my face, a professor tell me and be like, oh, yeah, but you're Oreo. You're not really black, though. And I was like, what does that mean? And what do you think. Think being black is? And I thought. And I realized, like, oh, you think being black is being like, what was this professor? I can't tell you.

A (46:04)

Okay. Like, you can't tell me, like, if they were black or white or.

B (46:09)

Oh, he was white.

A (46:10)

Okay. That was the question.

B (46:11)

Oh, yeah. Okay. I was like, what's. What did he do? What's his name? I can't do that. You know, he just. Despite that comment, he does do great work. So I don't want to, like, you know, throw him down or nothing. You know, in his climate, he may get fired. So let's not. Even though this was years ago, you know, like, he may. He may get fired. That would make me feel bad. Like, you know, But I've had. Yeah, I've had somebody tell me that of all things, a professor tell me to my face, like, yeah, you're not really black. You're like, well, what do you think being black is? Like, why do you think we all are one way? Like, we not monolithic? Like, what. Like, I'm confused. And so it's just hearing things like that makes me want to be like, okay, let me really make sure I'm knowing myself, knowing how I am being very authentic being. Like, if something bothers me saying it, I'm the same way with you that I am with my family that I am, with my friends, and. And it just. I don't want to switch it up every time I'm around a different group of people. If I don't like you and you ask me if I like you, I'm gonna tell you I don't like you.

A (47:22)

That's one more way of fragmenting, which is, I guess masking is another word for it, right? To dim yourself in certain groups or social settings, but to always be able to be yourself, it kind of is a superpower because it not only repels what, you know, the kinds of people, statements, assumptions, whatever, that can come your way, but it also draws in other people who are themselves. And I find myself, like, really liking that. I don't care what you're. I don't. I don't care really about what you do, how you do it. It's more. Is this who you are consistently? Because if you're in my bubble, you're already, like a person that fits in my bubble. And if you're not there long, I know, all right, well, you weren't supposed to be here. Or if I can't stay there long, all right, I know I ain't supposed to be there, but it just creates, like, a. A field of resonant energy that then becomes more attractive to positive experiences and more, like, of a sense of self. It creates, like, a more dense gravitational pool that creates aligned experiences.

B (48:33)

All right, well, I tell you this. I said authentic people attract authentic people.

A (48:37)

Yeah.

B (48:37)

You know, you. When you start taking the time to really sit with yourself and learn yourself, and when I say that, I mean, like, learn the things that bother you, the things that you're willing to tolerate, not tolerate, and you start actively. Like, if you're someone who doesn't drink, the likelihood of you being around people that drink all the time is going to be so low because you're gonna be like, I don't need a drink to have fun. Like, I don't need to. Like, if somebody. Everybody smoke, and you don't smoke, the odds of you being around everybody smoke all the time is going to be very minimal. Because you're gonna be like, oh, you know, yeah, this. Y' all cool. But I don't want to always in the night with smoke. Like, why do we have to do that? And so, like, for me, it's people that always want to go out and all. I mean, when I say always, I mean every night, they outside, they. They're not on the sidewalk. Like, me, I'm on the sidewalk. I'm peeking. I'm not, I'm not in a street. Street. But if everybody in the street, they want to go out, they want a club still, they want to. I'm like, I'm not that I'm not there. I'm. I'm 34. I'm not really trying to be out there like that. I did all of that. I lived in Miami for a couple years. Like I was out in the street every night till 3am then going to class at 8am and then doing it all again the same night I was out. So I did it. So I was like, I don't need to keep doing that. But when you learn yourself, you learn your own boundaries. You unknowingly set boundaries. Like, there's some people who like, if I know they about to be with the group, I'm. I may not go out with that group because I'm like, I know how the night's going to end and it's going to end with me getting home at 5am I don't want to do that. I got things to do and responsibilities now. I can't be out here like this. But the more you sit down and really take time to learn yourself and learn how you are, like, I'm someone who was overthinker. I am a Amber Vert, meaning I'm an introverted extrovert. I can be around people. I love to meet people, I love to be out. But after like a couple days, I'm gonna be in my house for about two weeks, like letting the battery recharge. Because while I love meeting people and I am high energy anyway, I get drained very fast and it just is what it is. But knowing that about myself, I like to warn people when they meet me. Like, hey, you may not hear from me about a week or two. But it's nothing personal. I just need to go into my cave and recharge and like re center myself before I come back out here again. But once you start doing that, you also realize if you're doing something that's stigma. If you have certain stereotypes that you're like, oh, I didn't think about that. If you have certain like, certain like thoughts or notions about a certain group of people, you're like, oh, that's interesting. Why I think that where that come from, who got me? And then you start, you started self correcting that stuff. No matter what it is, no matter. It ain't got to be nothing about STIs, anything, anyone. Like, it made me kind of check myself. Like, oh, I'm saying stuff like that. That's crazy. I should stop. I should stop saying that. I should stop calling myself stupid whenever I say something. I should stop calling myself stupid when I do something that just is a little like, you know, I don't know, just an afterthought or just like a. I forgot to put. Put the. Put the bottle in the trash. I'm so stupid. Like, I gotta stop doing that.

A (51:34)

And then it's always something that ain't really got anything to do with your intelligence.

B (51:38)

Yeah. At all. But you're demeaning your own intelligence every time you, you know, so it's just interesting.

A (51:43)

And people don't realize they do that. And women do it a lot.

B (51:47)

Oh, we do it a lot. Oh, yeah, we do it a lot for almost everything. And I was like, oh, I gotta stop, but I gotta fix myself before I try to help somebody else or tell somebody else about it, you know?

A (51:59)

I'll never forget this experience I had. And this was like, I hear women apologize so often. And I was training someone one day at the gym. This was years ago. I think it might have been 20, 19, 2020. And she was like. She said sorry for something, and I was like, hey, stop apologizing. Women apologize too much. Say thank you instead. And then I, like, walked off. I don't know what I did, but she hit me up later and was like. I cried like, for such a long time because, like, no one had ever said that to me, you know, just stop apologizing. Women apologize too much. And you don't have to do that. You can just say thank you. And that was something that. And this was someone. She's Puerto Rican and she's in. She's in medicine research too. I forget her title, but I checked on her like, she's married, got a kid now, and, like, living it up, like, living life, as far as I know. But yeah, that's just one more of those, like, identity validating things for people. Right. Like, you might not even realize you're calling yourself stupid. You may not realize and you. That you apologizing too much. And it often takes being around the kinds of people who can give you a sense of validation to your identity, who give you the presence for you to be able to see yourself in a way that maybe you've forgotten, maybe you've never seen before, maybe you just don't have experience experiencing. But this getting people to just live in a way that is authentic to them, I think really nullifies all of this fragmentation that stigma does to Our identity mic drop.

B (53:54)

Yeah, my drop pickup kick. Do you.

A (53:59)

You got anything else you want to say? I feel like this is pretty complete there.

B (54:02)

No, I do apologize too much and it's hard. I did a little notch and tried to count how many times I apologize in a day. And it was a lot. And it was for stuff like. I don't know what it is. It's like, excuse me, I'm sorry. Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. My bad. I'm sorry. I'm like, why am I apologizing for some being in someone's way? Like, why am I apologizing for now? I do apologize when I cut people off. My bad. My bad. Go. What would you say saying. What was you saying? Because I. I'm really trying to work on that. But like, I. I don't know what that's about. And we. Once you realize you start doing something, you start noticing what other people do. And that's going to be the thing that, that, that's. That gets you because you be like, is that how I sound? Is that how I look? Okay, we gotta work on that. I don't like that. I don't want to look like that. Let me tell this person too. Hey, you apologizing to too much, Stop it. Yeah, you got nothing to apologize. It was in your way. You just move out the way and keep it going. But anyways, we can be done. Yeah.

A (55:05)

All right. That concludes this episode of Something Positive for Positive People. Please Like Rate, Review Share subscribe to Donate to this Organization Keep things going. Tonight is the Herpes Dating and Disclosure webinar. It's at 7pm Central Time, so if you hear this and you got time to register, I'm going to say send out the last email probably 30 minutes before. So 6:30pm Central time. And yeah, just keep up to date with us by joining the newsletter. There's Mondays at 7:30 Central Time p.m. there will always be something happening with something positive. So there might be the men's group, the support group, or the live show on YouTube. The third one Monday of the month. I need to figure out something to do there, but maybe I rest. Who knows? But yeah, we got this stuff going and I'm doing my best to maintain consistency among my displacement at this time. So bear with me till next time. Stay present.